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shootin' the shit / Re: Value Share thread

« Last post by Will Hunt on Today at 01:37:11 pm »

Big windfall coming for Old Oaks PLC, a charitable organisation dedicated to helping ageing Sheffield landlords enjoy the delights of continental bolt-clipping 

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 01:24:05 pm »

It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic.

That may be your reality Sean, but Stone specifically refers to the participants of this procession relating specifically to the widely publicised incident. Stating that those participants in the procession who did not actively intervene should be ashamed. As I’ve amply illustrated it is not clear whether that particular insulting behaviour was, in fact, racist.

It was not a general point that people should be ashamed if they do not intervene when they witness racism. Though, as I’ve listed above, there are human factors which may explain why this does not always happen.

Zero tolerance (of anything) is a nice idea but seldom realistic to achieve.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Mike Highbury on Today at 01:17:30 pm »

For those of us who are ill informed, what do the counter protestors 'want' (notionally, within the confines of them being lots of people wanting different things etc.)? If the protesters notionally want ceasefire, do the counter protestors want IDF to keep smashing civilians or want anyone who supports ceasefire or thinks IDF and Netanyahu are c*nts to STFU? If they just want antisemites to STFU it seems like a pity that it ends up as "protest" and "counter protest" when lots of people probably agree with both 

There's been a consistent message that they want the hostages released. That's it.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by seankenny on Today at 01:11:30 pm »

He said he doesn’t want to see “harassment and abuse” at peace marches, and says people who accept it should be ashamed of themselves. It does seem to me that in context of this discussion “abuse” is not just political but also strays into the religious and ethnic. In which case, Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism.

As an aside, how intimidating can marchers be before it stops being a “peace march”?

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 01:03:55 pm »

Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.

No sean, he’s appalled by people who do not necessarily condone insulting behaviour but did not actively intervene. He says they should be ashamed of themselves.

Trite comments are attractive but usually inaccurate.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by seankenny on Today at 01:00:53 pm »

Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but Stone is calling for a zero tolerance approach to racism. Last time I checked that was a good thing.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 12:47:58 pm »

I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.

“Appalled” and “shame” are strong remarks from a person who calls for tolerance and was not present and has never participated in a procession.

Humility and understanding, anyone?

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by stone on Today at 12:40:22 pm »

What I mean is that it is not OK to turn a blind eye if we see someone being harassed, especially if we are part of eg a march and the abuse is being perpetrated by fellow marchers. We have to call it out and confront it.

And my point was, in daily life this -sadly- happens all the time because: people don’t want to speak out or people feel unable to speak out (due to power imbalance or intimidation or wanting to belong, etc, etc) or people expect someone else to speak out.

In that procession, I expect most people would not agree with insulting behaviour but they may not have felt able or willing to confront it. They may also have felt intimidated.

I'm sticking by saying they should be ashamed of themselves for not having the courage to confront it.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Will Hunt on Today at 12:36:10 pm »

Perhaps some counter-protestors want unwavering support for a military solution to Hamas... But it isn't so far from what our government (with support from the opposition) is standing behind.

I'm not sure you can consider the government's motivations without noting that it isn't just Hamas that threatens Israel, but a bunch of other actors in the region who do things that we don't like, such as disrupting shipping through the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea, and thus the Suez Canal.

I'm not writing this to make any case for or against supplying Israel with arms, just to point out that if you don't consider the wider geopolitics of the region then you won't understand our government's position.

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music, art and culture / Re: The right to counter-protest

« Last post by Tony on Today at 12:31:51 pm »

The episode was plainly a stunt.

…

Other footage included some pretty full on vitriol constantly being shouted at the official counter protest

Part of the difficulty is that individual does routinely claim their actions are as a “private individual” yet they run a campaign group and their private actions frequently appear to be filmed by people in an entourage.

They do not claim on these occasions to be “demonstrating”. They are, therefore, not authorised to demonstrate and they have not discussed policing arrangements and other security and crowd management arrangements.

There are often official parallel-demonstrations. (As abarro81 points out, it’s not clear if it’s sensible to call these “counter-demonstrations”; probably more anti-specific-demonstration demonstrations?) At these, the police do attend and they have investigated incidents of hate crime, intimidation, etc. (Even if there are not arrests, people may be warned and/or records made on the Police National Computer.)