UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: DavidM on January 22, 2021, 10:55:32 am
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Hi all,
Just wondered what supplementary climbing specific strength exercises people are doing on board session days that yield the best results at the crag when bouldering..? Or do they feel there is any need to if they have been limit bouldering on board on that session.?
By this I mean not finger boarding or antagonist exercises but I guess arms, back and core potentially.
Any suggestions on what people think works well to end a session maybe or they successfully incorporate into their board session from experience.
Cheers
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After lockdown 1 last year I came out expecting to crush my projects only to realise my legs didn't work! Doing some strength work for glutes and hamstrings has helped and benefitted my heelhooks too.
Edit: For me, board climbing is better than any specific core training at getting a strong core. My L-sits, ab-wheel rollouts etc get better after a period of board climbing than actually training the specific exercises!
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Edit: For me, board climbing is better than any specific core training at getting a strong core. My L-sits, ab-wheel rollouts etc get better after a period of board climbing than actually training the specific exercises!
Yaaas.. :D music to my ears...
Fuck you AB-Ripper bollocks :)
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There's a lot more in core for climbing than abs.
In fact, core for steep climbing revolves much more on posterior chain.
People tend to mistake the abs ability to put the feet back onto the rock after a swing, with the posterior chain ability to keep the feet on the rock and not swing.
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There's a lot more in core for climbing than abs.
In fact, core for steep climbing revolves much more on posterior chain.
People tend to mistake the abs ability to put the feet back onto the rock after a swing, with the posterior chain ability to keep the feet on the rock and not swing.
And shoulders.
The chain being key. If you have access to rings or a suspension trainer and a bar, try:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BurDxwMhzDD/?igshid=1ln5dflm07mit (https://www.instagram.com/p/BurDxwMhzDD/?igshid=1ln5dflm07mit)
Nibs doesn’t like windscreen wipers, but I have a herniated disc and find they keep my obliques up to snuff and keeping both Anterior and Posterior chains strong, keeps me free from sciatica.
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Deadlifts, always deadlifts.
At least for me it seems to help with lower end chain especially keeping toes on bad footholds.
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Edit: For me, board climbing is better than any specific core training at getting a strong core. My L-sits, ab-wheel rollouts etc get better after a period of board climbing than actually training the specific exercises!
Yaaas.. :D music to my ears...
Fuck you AB-Ripper bollocks :)
I can't see how ab-ripper would actually build strength as it's an endurance routine. It seems the equivalent of doing sets of 25 pullups, straight into 25 rows, 25 deadlifts, etc (all way off failure with assistance as necessary) in an attempt to build strength rather than just adding weight / removing an arm and doing fewer reps with lots of rest?
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Deadlifts, always deadlifts.
At least for me it seems to help with lower end chain especially keeping toes on bad footholds.
Agreed, simple best single whole body exercise. Being tall I have found these have worked wonders on back and core stability. Only problem is the cost of a proper setup, as weights have just got so expensive!!
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Edit: For me, board climbing is better than any specific core training at getting a strong core. My L-sits, ab-wheel rollouts etc get better after a period of board climbing than actually training the specific exercises!
Yaaas.. :D music to my ears...
Fuck you AB-Ripper bollocks :)
I can't see how ab-ripper would actually build strength as it's an endurance routine. It seems the equivalent of doing sets of 25 pullups, straight into 25 rows, 25 deadlifts, etc (all way off failure with assistance as necessary) in an attempt to build strength rather than just adding weight / removing an arm and doing fewer reps with lots of rest?
Improves general fitness and conditioning. I have been doing a cycle of 50x pullups, crunches, squats, and press ups in minimum time possible for a couple of weeks, and I have found my general performance in all strength exercises has increased. I don't think this is as simple as just getting stronger, since I see very quick improvement as I get fitter, beyond what I would expect from just training strength. I can also discount weight loss, since weight is something I track pretty religiously nowdays.
Goes without saying, n=1.
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I can't see how ab-ripper would actually build strength as it's an endurance routine.
Will isn’t actually interested in getting strong, he’s doing ab ripper to make sure he’s beach ready. Heard that he’d got some St Tropez from Lincoln too!
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For me, board climbing is better than any specific core training at getting a strong core. My L-sits, ab-wheel rollouts etc get better after a period of board climbing than actually training the specific exercises!
No way could I do board climbing or fingerboarding daily and still retain use of my old fingers. They are all locky and clicky for at least a whole day after a session.
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I can't see how ab-ripper would actually build strength as it's an endurance routine.
Will isn’t actually interested in getting strong, he’s doing ab ripper to make sure he’s beach ready. Heard that he’d got some St Tropez from Lincoln too!
:D He's trying to shake that downgrader moniker and become known as "Hench Hunt" ;)
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You'll all be laughing on the other side of your faces when I take my top off at Malham in the spring.
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You'll all be laughing on the other side of your faces when I take my top off at Malham in the spring.
Hope you'll babyoil up first.
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You'll all be laughing on the other side of your faces when I take my top off at Malham in the spring.
Hope you'll babyoil up first.
He'll do it just as Shark is reaching for the chains on the Oak, the sun's reflection off Will's pasty skin blinding him so he fumbles the clip and blows the send
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Please be seated, ladies. Don't want you swooning off the Catwalk.
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What a shame that “Triumph of the Will” has such negative connotations.
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Crop top. Thats what you need Will. Keep the scrawny bits covered up and prevent nipple chaffage.
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I'm not going to advocate ab ripper as the perfect climbing-specific "core" workout. I do it because it's easy to fit in and, because it's so short, my short attention span (certainly when it comes to gym-style work outs) doesn't become limiting. I feel like I get more out of it than the BD core workout which Stubbs linked to on Youtube, which takes longer, is much more boring, and is much less difficult to complete.
If you haven't done the routine, maybe give it a go. It'll only take 20 minutes of your time. I got a friend to do it during the first lockdown for a laugh and he sent me a text saying, "fucking hell, this should be called Leg Extensor Ripper X". It's not just a load of abs.
Whether or not the exercises are to failure is entirely dependent on your current ability. For me, I very rarely get through the Fifer Scissors section without having to put a heel down at least momentarily. The next couple of things after that I find very difficult.
As to whether this sort of workout can be used to train strength (as opposed to whether you think it is the optimal way to train strength), how is it different to supersets, which are commonly advocated as a strength training exercise? How is it different from Dan V saying that you can get stronger fingers by doing repeaters (as opposed to max hangs)?
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I’d say that BD one is v different in purpose to AbRX, being a series of exercises that a lot of climbers may find difficult due to instabilities or lack of flexibility. I see these as more accessory/mobility work as much as ‘core training’. There’s also a decent amount of advancement to be had in that series in terms of increasing the difficulty or increasing the reps. (Link for ref)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=In0D4nYVX3s
AbRX and other ‘10 min abs’ style exercises have always felt like a fitness thing to me, you fail because you get pumped and they feel really hard to start with, but once you complete the whole thing once it’s generally pretty easy to do so from then on. I’m not sure where you’d go to increase the difficulty, I guess you could start again!
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I’d say that BD one is v different in purpose to AbRX, being a series of exercises that a lot of climbers may find difficult due to instabilities or lack of flexibility. I see these as more accessory/mobility work as much as ‘core training’. There’s also a decent amount of advancement to be had in that series in terms of increasing the difficulty or increasing the reps. (Link for ref)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=In0D4nYVX3s
AbRX and other ‘10 min abs’ style exercises have always felt like a fitness thing to me, you fail because you get pumped and they feel really hard to start with, but once you complete the whole thing once it’s generally pretty easy to do so from then on. I’m not sure where you’d go to increase the difficulty, I guess you could start again!
For the BD one I do the most difficult of the variations described for the max number of recommended sets and reps. It's tricky but boredom is more often the reason I stop. I need Tony's encouragement to Bring It rather than the soothing tones of that nice BD lady and her emotionless, expressionless android demonstrator.
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I’d say that BD one is v different in purpose to AbRX, being a series of exercises that a lot of climbers may find difficult due to instabilities or lack of flexibility. I see these as more accessory/mobility work as much as ‘core training’. There’s also a decent amount of advancement to be had in that series in terms of increasing the difficulty or increasing the reps. (Link for ref)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=In0D4nYVX3s
AbRX and other ‘10 min abs’ style exercises have always felt like a fitness thing to me, you fail because you get pumped and they feel really hard to start with, but once you complete the whole thing once it’s generally pretty easy to do so from then on. I’m not sure where you’d go to increase the difficulty, I guess you could start again!
For the BD one I do the most difficult of the variations described for the max number of recommended sets and reps. It's tricky but boredom is more often the reason I stop. I need Tony's encouragement to Bring It rather than the soothing tones of that nice BD lady and her emotionless, expressionless android demonstrator.
Agreed. I find the BD one tedious in the extreme.
I am a convert to AbrX. I have a pathetic core so it feels really hard to me. Fifer Scissors and pulse ups are my nemesis. The whole thing is easy to complete with rubbish form; totally nails with good form.
Everyone saying its a waste of time should try and do it; I'll be impressed if you can just reel it off with good form. I have no doubt it has made me stronger.
I attempted some bar core earlier in the week and that felt next level difficult. Maybe its all relative to individual strengths and weaknesses. I like the follow along genre so if anyone has any good links to a bar core workout please do link me up.
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Everyone saying its a waste of time should try and do it; I'll be impressed if you can just reel it off with good form. I have no doubt it has made me stronger.
People not being able to complete it and it being a waste or time are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve no doubt it has made you better at that particular set or exercises but whether that has improved you climbing performance or whether it represents the best way to spend -5 mins training are different questions. It has little opportunity cost overall I guess as long as it’s not leaving you too tired to do other things.
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I can't see how ab-ripper would actually build strength as it's an endurance routine.
Will isn’t actually interested in getting strong, he’s doing ab ripper to make sure he’s beach ready. Heard that he’d got some St Tropez from Lincoln too!
Ab Ripper is bringing out the worst in Will. The other week he said that I have "quite a weak pec game though" :'(
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Everyone saying its a waste of time should try and do it; I'll be impressed if you can just reel it off with good form. I have no doubt it has made me stronger.
People not being able to complete it and it being a waste or time are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve no doubt it has made you better at that particular set or exercises but whether that has improved you climbing performance or whether it represents the best way to spend -5 mins training are different questions. It has little opportunity cost overall I guess as long as it’s not leaving you too tired to do other things.
Is it the specific exercises/muscles worked that you don't think are valuable, or is it the format of the routine, or is it that it's aimed at Hollywood-lifestyle wannabes, or is it all three?
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People not being able to complete it and it being a waste or time are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve no doubt it has made you better at that particular set or exercises but whether that has improved you climbing performance or whether it represents the best way to spend -5 mins training are different questions. It has little opportunity cost overall I guess as long as it’s not leaving you too tired to do other things.
Fair point; I suppose I think it would fall squarely into the 'general conditioning' bracket for me. Maybe not explicitly climbing related but certainly cant harm, and probably helps. No doubt I could do more targeted, focused core training for climbing but I find it a good way of using that part of my body, which in the absence of much climbing or a board, could (very) easily be neglected!
Tangentially, I think its interesting how different people get on with different formats of training video. I have tried the hip mobility one csl linked in PC twice this week; both times I wanted to punch the narrator for talking way too fast and not explaining the stretches at all. To a punter like me thats the most important bit!
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Everyone saying its a waste of time should try and do it
Fair point as my original comment was very much an armchair opinion. Will try tonight after my regular rings routine and report back in next week's powerclub!
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Fair point as my original comment was very much an armchair opinion. Will try tonight after my regular rings routine and report back in next week's powerclub!
Here comes the downgrade! :lol:
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This is routes-specific (and onsight specific too) but no matter how strong and/ or fit I get in winter, whenever I get on the rock again in spring calf-pump always kicks me in the arse the first couple of times out. I don’t know what the answer to that is, possibly just walking around on tiptoes for hours at a time.
Squats are really good I reckon. You don’t need a spotter or huge plates if you do them with dumbbells.
I need Tony's encouragement to Bring It rather than the soothing tones of that nice BD lady's and her android demonstrator.
Ab Ripper X may have only have a tiny transfer to climbing but it is fucking hilarious.
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This is routes-specific (and onsight specific too) but no matter how strong and/ or fit I get in winter, whenever I get on the rock again in spring calf-pump always kicks me in the arse the first couple of times out. I don’t know what the answer to that is, possibly just walking around on tiptoes for hours at a time.
I've always suffered from pathetic calf endurance. I've nearly failed a number of insights due to having to hang off of my arms to let my calves de-pump. Even after a full winter of skiing and ice climbing!
The only thing that's ever made a difference is fell running.
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If I am doing a proper board session I don`t tend to do other strength stuff in the same session. I do some pull ups, rings stuff and maybe some body weight squats etc as part of warm up and to get going. I would do more intense arms and legs stuff on days I couldn`t climb on the board due to forearm/ fingers needing a break. That said I am rarely disciplined enough to do these sessions!
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If AbRipper is about banging out as many reps as possible without regard for form I'd avoid it at all costs.
I would any similar program but especially where the back is so vulnerable
I'll take Esther's quiet prompts about engaging muscles and maintaining form, i.e. doing the exercise properly, over being screamed at to fuck myself up to so I can do one more useless rep
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If AbRipper is about banging out as many reps as possible without regard for form I'd avoid it at all costs.
I would any similar program but especially where the back is so vulnerable
I'll take Esther's quiet prompts about engaging muscles and maintaining form, i.e. doing the exercise properly, over being screamed at to fuck myself up to so I can do one more useless rep
:bow:
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If AbRipper is about banging out as many reps as possible without regard for form I'd avoid it at all costs.
Fortunately Tony has you covered. He never screams and correct form is both demonstrated and encouraged.
"You need that break? You better take it."
"Let's make it pretty."
Interesting that almost all the detractors have never done it.
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Interesting that almost all the detractors have never done it.
Those who have hate it too.
But they love it!
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I’d like to point out that as a detractor I’ve not done any ‘ab’ workout....
I thoroughly recommend this all body conditioning video
https://m.facebook.com/HCUKLive/videos/654263498457712/
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I’d like to point out that as a detractor I’ve not done any ‘ab’ workout....
I thoroughly recommend this all body conditioning video
https://m.facebook.com/HCUKLive/videos/654263498457712/
‘Reckon he pinched that outfit from Fiend...
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If AbRipper is about banging out as many reps as possible without regard for form I'd avoid it at all costs.
Fortunately Tony has you covered. He never screams and correct form is both demonstrated and encouraged.
"You need that break? You better take it."
"Let's make it pretty."
Interesting that almost all the detractors have never done it.
Sorry I misinterpreted "Tony's Encourgaement to bring it" as encouragement to keep repping.
No I haven't tried it, I flicked through a bit and decided to watch the scissor kicks sectiona ll through, no mention of what should be happening with the lumbar spine which is crucial, should be the first point made. Then trying to overstretch that guys hamstrings. No.
Probably an age thing and having a prolapsed disk already but I'd call that dangerous and definitly wouldn't recommend anybody use it.
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I look forward to the UKB approved version: Dad Ripper X.
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Index Tracker X
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Index Tracker X
That’s for Pete’s get rich quick thread.
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Boulderers Belly Buster X..
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Interesting that almost all the detractors have never done it.
It could be because the detractors know their fuck*** sh**.
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So, what are the climbing specific "core" workouts that we ought to be doing which a) don't take forever to complete, b) aren't excruciatingly boring, c) require no equipment, and most importantly d) are culturally acceptable by merit of being endorsed/demonstrated by a climbing brand ambassador. I'm very willing to try them.
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I can’t think of anything that fits ‘c’, but would imagine that variations on hanging leg raises combined with something for posterior chain is most climbing specific.
For what it’s worth, in lockdown I’ve been doing some core stuff more to keep conditioned than with any idea of improvement. Based around Tom Randall’s recent video.
I’ve also tried out this:
https://www.coachmag.co.uk/exercises/dumbbell-exercises/4131/the-ultimate-dumbbell-arms-workout
With the idea that if I’m doing no climbing I’ll just loose all over all strength and my upper back neck was recently too painful to do hang based stuff.
Rightly or probably wrongly I sacked off workout 3 and did my own thing incorporating dumbbell bench press, hanging leg raises, press ups and some leg stuff.
At some point I’d like to condense that down to the most useful things I could add it maybe once a week for when I have a board.
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Leg raises off a bar or fingerboard, can vary arm lock angle. I like arms at 90 degree lock lift, legs kept straight and raised to above horizontal horizon with ankle weights on. I aim for 6-8 slow reps with good form but failing on last rep. 3/4 sets. decent rest in between sets but usually do pistols, press ups and weighted pull ups at same time in a rotation. Straighter arms, toes all the way to bar also good but can feel a bit crunchy on the shoulders for me (probably doing it wrong or too weak somewhere).
If I'm not used to doing leg raises, just 2 sets of 6 reps can leave me with severe doms in abs for days - not desirable outcome but demonstrates to me it's hitting the right areas pretty hard. Also do timed L-sit holds and V-sits on the ground.
Satisfies a, b and c (apart from ankle weights though I'm sure something could be improvised). No idea about d. Would be interested if anyone else does this and what climbing relevant core areas it misses as don't really do anything else.
Disclaimer, my abs are more 'Zydrunas Savickas' (pre-transformation) than 'Will Hunt' to look at.
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So, what are the climbing specific "core" workouts that we ought to be doing which a) don't take forever to complete, b) aren't excruciatingly boring, c) require no equipment, and most importantly d) are culturally acceptable by merit of being endorsed/demonstrated by a climbing brand ambassador. I'm very willing to try them.
Will, it’s not that.
I spent the last 8 years working as a Personal Trainer (a proper, qualified, REPs registered one) and dealing, day in and day out, with running a climbing gym and talking to people with their own training plans, writing training plans. I’m a Lattice assessor and blah blah blah blah whibble.
I quit. I’m done with trying to deal with people.
I really spent hours and hours reading and studying every bit of research, every new paper and article I could find. Spent good money on subscriptions and memberships etc etc.
All anybody ever wants, is some “quick fix” minimum effort (at least mentally) magical system, preferably celebrity endorsed.
But, it doesn’t work like that. Everybody is different, everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, different needs.
Sometimes, you’ll set somebody the same progressions, you set the last ten clients, because everything in their assessment pointed to the same starting point, yet they just don’t progress. So, you chart a different path, different exercises, that subtly take a different route to the hoped for goal.
This is a massively abbreviated description of a quite complex process. I have worked with every thing from a Tetraplegic ( he went from wheel chair to climbing V2 and walking with a stick (that he carried, mostly) in a little over two years) to National level OCR competitors. I trained youngsters for entry into the Marines and Para reg (from couch to combat, in one case). Plenty of climbers, including three over 75.
Again blah blah blah blah.
Because there are certainly hundreds of people like me across the UK, if not thousands. You’ll find several working at every wall or gym you set foot in.
Up shot:
Everybody needs to find what works for them. However, the chances are, that won’t be some “Blaster”, endorsed, half hour sufferfest.
It might be, for you, but most likely not.
There are a variety of simple and easily achieved exercises and progressions that have proven benefits.
As an aside, take some time to look at why the Sit Up, in almost all it’s forms, is dropping out of favour. Look at why many militaries, globally, are dropping it (it’s always worth looking at what organisations who train thousands of people, continuously, find useful or harmful).
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In the same way that there’s rarely one size fits all method for injury rehab?
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In the same way that there’s rarely one size fits all method for injury rehab?
Yeah.
(He said, un-ironically, if sheepishly).
Depends on where you’re starting and where you want to get to.
There’s a world of difference between, “I just want my knee to let me walk the dog, without leaving me in agony” and “I want to Ski again”. The difference between “I want to Ski again” and “ I want to Ski competitively again” is probably even greater.
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This is routes-specific (and onsight specific too) but no matter how strong and/ or fit I get in winter, whenever I get on the rock again in spring calf-pump always kicks me in the arse the first couple of times out. I don’t know what the answer to that is, possibly just walking around on tiptoes for hours at a time.
Squats are really good I reckon. You don’t need a spotter or huge plates if you do them with dumbbells.
I need Tony's encouragement to Bring It rather than the soothing tones of that nice BD lady's and her android demonstrator.
Ab Ripper X may have only have a tiny transfer to climbing but it is fucking hilarious.
I’m busy with “family” stuff, and already in the dog house for having my head in my phone...
But, are you doing calf raises, as well as squats?
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No, I don’t do calf raises. They would be something to look at pre-route season I guess.
I mentioned squats in answer to the original question rather than in relation to the calf-pump thing. I think they’re great but my perception is probably pretty skewed by leg strength having been a real limiter on my climbing for the last few years.
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For people who struggle with pumped calves, do you have very flexible ankles? (can google how to quickly test this if unsure)
Reason I ask is I have positively sparrow like calves, have never trained them and yet have never struggled with pumped calves on routes - get the sense I could stand around on small edges in a corner or on a vert face all day without it being a problem (reckon foot/toe pain would get me first.) So my guess is I'm passively able to just stand on the achilles (with a slightly dropped heel) rather than having to actively engage any (presumably feeeble) calf muscle. If I had really flexible ankles, maybe wouldn't be able to do this as heel would have to be so low that your foot's now at an angle where you'll start slipping off the holds.
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I just did this (https://squatuniversity.com/2015/11/05/the-squat-fix-ankle-mobility-pt-1/)- I can’t quite touch my knee to the wall on the right and I’m miles off on the left.
I wouldn’t say that I struggle with pumped calves beyond the first couple of days of the route climbing season but it’s always a smack in the face the first couple of times.
I’m conflicted as to whether I want to improve my ankle flexibility (it’s probably a further problem of my generally poor but improving inflexible legs) or not now!
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Is it literally the “first couple of times”? (Days, or routes?)
Even if it’s the first couple of sessions, it doesn’t sound as if you will have “ done enough” to produce a physiological change.
Is it a matter of becoming re-accustomed to exposure? Bearing down too much?
And subsequently, you relax back into it?
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I've got very good ankle flexibility. Learning to use my inside edges instead of just toeing-in on everything helped.
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I just did this (https://squatuniversity.com/2015/11/05/the-squat-fix-ankle-mobility-pt-1/)- I can’t quite touch my knee to the wall on the right and I’m miles off on the left.
I wouldn’t say that I struggle with pumped calves beyond the first couple of days of the route climbing season but it’s always a smack in the face the first couple of times.
I’m conflicted as to whether I want to improve my ankle flexibility (it’s probably a further problem of my generally poor but improving inflexible legs) or not now!
I think this might help:
(https://i.ibb.co/wcvgzct/5-BD3-F28-A-D297-465-F-880-B-5-FCB26-F1498-F.jpg)
😜 :strongbench: :o
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Is it literally the “first couple of times”? (Days, or routes?)
Even if it’s the first couple of sessions, it doesn’t sound as if you will have “ done enough” to produce a physiological change.
It’s something that gets better gradually I guess. Just the first two days back climbing routes are the ones where it’s really noticeable.
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I used really struggle with bridging, no problem with the moves but aching feet and calves. Over the last 30 years I have gone running, weight trained including squats , dead lifts, calve raises. Cycled various disciplines mountain biking, road racing, time trailing, cyclo cross. Done triathlons up to Ironman distance. Lots of walking and so on. I have no idea whether this has helped because I can’t remember the last time I tried to do any bridging. :-\
Is it allowed in bouldering.
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I’ve been thinking about the leg issues people are raising, can I point you at this blog?
I came across Adam Meakins, early in my training. He knows his shit, is blunt about it and frequently admits to being wrong or not sure, which seems rare in this industry.
https://www.thesports.physio/steps-to-success/?amp=1 (https://www.thesports.physio/steps-to-success/?amp=1)
Now, I like to “walk” and I know I can burn off a couple kilos in a couple of weeks and pull “ fitness” up a few notches in the same period, by adding in some “walks” 2-3 times per week.
Here’s some “progress” checks ~one week appart and trying to keep an RPE in the 4-7 range (4 on the flat, 7 climbing, 5/6 descending).
My first post Xmas walk. Last week, 13th. I carry 12kg (or 25lbs+water):
(https://i.ibb.co/WgqnyCb/306-AE539-5392-4187-86-F8-3-B9873365-BC3.jpg)
Gradient profile:
(https://i.ibb.co/Qmz715c/E68-E3-EC2-1-D10-4-B39-A590-92858-A05-E557.jpg)
By the 22nd I was already needing to go further and climb more to keep the same effort level up:
(https://i.ibb.co/McrDGsn/DED412-FA-3115-4-FE7-B694-51-FA372-E682-B.jpg)
Profile:
(https://i.ibb.co/yQjGgqq/580-E2812-F334-4-B03-9488-C026974-D39-C0.jpg)
So, in a week, further, faster, higher.
You can see the difference between the plod up almost a hundred meters of uneven steps and stairways and the trotting down again. I have to trot down to keep the RPE up. Flat sections are rests. It becomes an almost Fartlek profile.
I’m lucky to have steep cliffs and paths, on my doorstep, but you could achive a similar profile using, say, a multi-storey carpark, or any multi-floor building staircase. In Dubai, I used to alternate between climbing my appartement block stairs and lapping the building. I wore a weight vest, instead of a Bergan, as that invites fewer odd looks in an urban setting.
This does not result in massive legs. Unlike cycling/MTB. When I get that bug, my thighs expand very quickly...
Note:
The Strava calorie count is way off. Strava thinks I weigh 78kg. Obviously, with the bergan I’m actually carting 90kg around.
Also, on the 22nd, I still only managed 9863 steps, so fuck the whole 10k steps thing.
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For people who struggle with pumped calves, do you have very flexible ankles? (can google how to quickly test this if unsure)
Reason I ask is I have positively sparrow like calves, have never trained them and yet have never struggled with pumped calves on routes - get the sense I could stand around on small edges in a corner or on a vert face all day without it being a problem (reckon foot/toe pain would get me first.) So my guess is I'm passively able to just stand on the achilles (with a slightly dropped heel) rather than having to actively engage any (presumably feeeble) calf muscle. If I had really flexible ankles, maybe wouldn't be able to do this as heel would have to be so low that your foot's now at an angle where you'll start slipping off the holds.
Do you run Steve?
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For people who struggle with pumped calves, do you have very flexible ankles? (can google how to quickly test this if unsure)
Reason I ask is I have positively sparrow like calves, have never trained them and yet have never struggled with pumped calves on routes - get the sense I could stand around on small edges in a corner or on a vert face all day without it being a problem (reckon foot/toe pain would get me first.) So my guess is I'm passively able to just stand on the achilles (with a slightly dropped heel) rather than having to actively engage any (presumably feeeble) calf muscle. If I had really flexible ankles, maybe wouldn't be able to do this as heel would have to be so low that your foot's now at an angle where you'll start slipping off the holds.
My calves always get chronically pumped on trad. I like to get my heels on wherever possible. Ankle flexibility surely only part of the story. Massive feet (like mine) and weight must be least as much of an issue. I find front pointing up ice to be outrageous on the calves—and ankles aren't doing that much strapped into B3s.
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My favourite climbing specific core routine is to pull to about 2/3-1/2 lock on a fingerboard (big flatty or jugs usually, but sometimes 20 mm) then pull into an approx 45 degree lever for 7s or so. I repeat 8-10 times with 1 min rest between reps. This feels very climbing specific, is tough for me, and always blasts my core.
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On my board - I sometimes grab a couple of large jugs near the top - then walk my feet up and down a range of footholds. Replicates the holding the feet on and placing them - without working the arms (apart from hanging there)
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On the 30⁰ board, the Youth coach has the youngsters playing “Foot First”, as a way to build core strength and stamina. I have tried it, but it’s very hard, despite having pretty good strength in that aspect.
Simple concept, whatever hand hold you intend to take next, you must first touch with your foot on that side, so right hand=right foot first.
Or, to put it another way, if you can’t get your foot to it, pick a different hold.
The kids often combine that into the game “Plus one”. Usually played as a pair, from agreed starting holds, creating the problem as you go, the first player selects the next move, the following player must then repeat the moves and add one more (each time, touching the next hold with your foot first).
If anybody else is still training as a pair/household. The only limit to the number of players is how long you can wait your turn between attempts and also still keep track of all the moves (clipboard and pen). Makes a good knockout comp, when you fancy a piss around.
Switching it makes it much harder, right hand=left foot.
(Oh yeah, when they do the foot first version, it’s foot free or anything for your feet, only the hand holds are following).
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Do you run Steve?
Occasionally/a bit but def not a runner...
My calves always get chronically pumped on trad. I like to get my heels on wherever possible. Ankle flexibility surely only part of the story. Massive feet (like mine) and weight must be least as much of an issue. I find front pointing up ice to be outrageous on the calves—and ankles aren't doing that much strapped into B3s.
Good point with the ice climbing. I guess you're right that there'll be a few factors to it.
I’m conflicted as to whether I want to improve my ankle flexibility (it’s probably a further problem of my generally poor but improving inflexible legs) or not now!
Ha, have also been trying to improve leg/hip flexibility recently and had exactly the same thought. Decided to not try to increase any ankle flexibility just in case! Until it feels like you can't drop your heel enough on high grit smears or something, probably worth having some rigidity there rather than a floppy yoga paddle.
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Flexibility isn’t the same as weakness and laxity though. Your hip is directly tied to your ankle, so where that goes determines your centre of gravity. And that affects your climbing.
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Flexibility isn’t the same as weakness and laxity though.
Was going to say the same thing. Having some flexibility in your ankles isn't going to make them, same as having flexible open hips doesn't make you more prone to collapsing in the floor when you try and walk.
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Flexibility isn’t the same as weakness and laxity though.
Was going to say the same thing. Having some flexibility in your ankles isn't going to make them, same as having flexible open hips doesn't make you more prone to collapsing in the floor when you try and walk.
Nope.
That’s alcohol.
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I hold the top holds (in my case a campus rung), hang, and do various slow and controlled leg raises to either side with a straight leg, alternating legs and then both legs. Kills my core after several sets, not sure if it helps my climbing outside!
Similar to this guy at 15mins into the video: https://youtu.be/IHHEKcfVIsg
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Actually, Steff has an interesting take, that seems to address many of the issues raised in this thread, in terms of overall body strength and flexibility and using stuff found lying around most climbers homes:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKidED8FQGD/?igshid=1c77c6jxj44kl (https://www.instagram.com/p/CKidED8FQGD/?igshid=1c77c6jxj44kl)
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I hold the top holds (in my case a campus rung), hang, and do various slow and controlled leg raises to either side with a straight leg, alternating legs and then both legs. Kills my core after several sets, not sure if it helps my climbing outside!
Similar to this guy at 15mins into the video: https://youtu.be/IHHEKcfVIsg
Really, this. Steff is of course an absolute nutter and inhumanly strong, flexible and fearless.
No.1 child was doing a core sesh, yesterday. She does a variation of the “Foot first” thing I mentioned above, as part of her warm up. We have a few boards, this one is a 30⁰ Chaos board (the guys randomly throw “left over” holds on it. Eventually it will be completely chokka. We then use tags or tape to mark problems or circuits, or do shit like this).
Most of those mini volumes are pretty hard to hold on a 30⁰ board:
To my mind, she’s cheating, but you can see the principle. For reference, I tried to follow her, couldn’t finish:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CKhB2E3jb_F/?igshid=z8lm3lmh6dy4 (https://www.instagram.com/tv/CKhB2E3jb_F/?igshid=z8lm3lmh6dy4)
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Actually, Steff has an interesting take, that seems to address many of the issues raised in this thread, in terms of overall body strength and flexibility and using stuff found lying around most climbers homes:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKidED8FQGD/?igshid=1c77c6jxj44kl (https://www.instagram.com/p/CKidED8FQGD/?igshid=1c77c6jxj44kl)
Fuck that, imagine having to stick all that lot back on again to do another rep after 3 min.... :D
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Similar to this guy at 15mins into the video: https://youtu.be/IHHEKcfVIsg
The abs routine on the mat is sincerely cringeworthy. Things that should be left to vhs tapes from the 80s.
The twisting crunch is now considered the single most dangerous spine movement.
Then, people seem to forget that there are no abs insertions on the femur. Any femur movement is not from abs.
Make of that what you wish.
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Deadlifts, always deadlifts.
At least for me it seems to help with lower end chain especially keeping toes on bad footholds.
During my gym rat days, I did the odd session of dead lifts but never got the feeling of muscle growth from other exercises such as benching or oh pressing. I just felt like the chance of an injury was lurking around the corner.
As for o.p
Rings are my fav things to play around on. Also good for my kids. My 2 year swings around on them something crazy. Her hands barely make it over half the ring but she clamps on.
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RE calf pump: if you're not getting pumped you're not kneebaring enough ;) I once tried training calf muscles for a few months by sitting down, putting my knees under a bar with loads of weight (use a thin sit start boulder pad) and doing calf raises. It made no appreciable difference though.
RE: deadlift. Be careful if y'all, it's meant no core training for 3 years for me now. The 0.1% gain in offer isn't worth the risk IMO - just smash out some rings roll-outs, upside down sit ups, legs raises etc..
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That's interesting to hear. What did deadlifts do to you? I've often toyed with the thought of giving it a go to help fix weak glute related back issues. I'd be interested to hear your experience
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Did something to my back, not a tweak at the time, just tired/sore the day after a session and went downhill for a few weeks then never been the same since. Nothing "wrong" with it now but still struggle with chronic pain issues and if I try to do much core work it spasms up. It's largely ok climbing, and I try to do some gentle core stuff to help it relearn that's ok, but trying hard on leg raises or levers or upside down sit ups or anything pisses it off again. Sitting in the car for >10min is sore more times than it isn't etc.
That all being said, some people with back problems do find that it helps them. Very individual I guess? In any case, be cautious if you do go down that route IMO. For me as someone trying to find a 0.1% gain on my climbing it certainly wasn't worth the risk!
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Ask ten different people who’ve had back problems and you’ll get ten different answers about what fixed it.
:D
Though a common theme is posture/seating/desk (all related etc..)
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That's interesting to hear. What did deadlifts do to you? I've often toyed with the thought of giving it a go to help fix weak glute related back issues. I'd be interested to hear your experience
Deadlifts are a funny one. Some people have no issues even with poor form and some get injured with perfect form. I must have been lucky as deadlifts actually cured my past back issues and I built up to pulling some pretty heavy weight. I'd agree though that the risk makes it not worth it for most people.
For weak glutes there are actually better exercises anyway. Loaded barbell hip thrusts are excellent if you have enough weights available (you go quite heavy!). Without weight, try the unloaded 1 leg version on the floor. Focus on fully opening up the hip joint at the top of each rep, if you aren't then the glutes aren't working fully and hamstrings will dominate. When you extend the non working leg fully forwards it creates a fair bit of resistance due to the leverage. Additionally, if you have somewhere to hook your feet under like a settee, try nordic curls (likely just negatives to start and make sure you're warmed up).
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Can I strongly recommend this guy again?
https://www.thesports.physio/ (https://www.thesports.physio/)
He mainly deals with educating practitioners, however the general level of knowledge of forum posters, makes that a reasonable level.
I don’t find his subscription onerous and he’s definitely worth following on Facebook.
I’ve been managing back issues, including a herniated disc, since a surfing accident in 1996 (I got drilled into a reef on a 2x overhead day and it was complicated by coral polyp infection). Apart from four epidurals (the last in early 99) I’ve managed it through exercise. It’s part of what motivated me to train as a rehab PT in the first place.
I am pain free, unless idle for too long (I mean idle for a few weeks, not hours). A lot of it comes down to maintenance of your Erector Spinae set.
Posture, is usually secondary to sedentary habits. Or, to put it another way, in the statement “long periods slouched at your desk”, the critical point is “long periods”, rather than “slouched”. Obviously, which aspect your circumstances allow you to mitigate, is another matter.
Muscle atrophy is a startlingly quick process, though, so regular and frequent exercise is critical.
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Mine cleared up after I bought a Volvo :)
15-20 years of on off back pain before that.
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It’s funny how people are so specific about finger injuries but just say “I’ve hurt my back” with no further info like it’s a really simple thing. Probably why there are so many different things that work for different people- they’ve all injured (or are aggravating) a very complex structure in different ways.
I had a complete flexion-distraction fracture of the T9 with a broken sternum and 5 or 6 broken ribs too. Two (I think) of the ribs were in my back with the worst being the one that joins the T9 on the left which had a couple of months moving back into place before it could start healing :sick:. I had about 3 weeks flat on my back then another 7 or so with a back brace and a further couple of months when I was strictly banned from lifting or carrying anything. As you can imagine my entire core was as weak as it gets after that- first time I went to stand up from a sitting position on the side of the bed without the brace I simply couldn’t do it as my body had just adapted to being supported by it like an exoskeleton. :'(
Anyway, the back and core bits of my rehab were (over a long gradual period) sitting on a Swiss ball for gradually increasing periods at first, then standing on a “Bosu ball”, then standing on the Bosu ball with increasingly heavier kettlebells in each hand, then deadlifting. I guess each of these is putting increasing amounts of stress of your back while it’s in a correct position.
My physio trusted me that I’d deadlifted before without getting injured so the only instructions I got were not to lift anything that I couldn’t lift at least twice, to take it slow and not to try to always be lifting more each time. Good advice for anyone I think.
I’d be lying if I said I don’t get back pain any more (it’s not realistic to expect that I could) but it’s not something that troubles me like it used to. As Matt says I think day-to-day it’s sitting in one place that sets back problems off rather than sitting in a certain way. Seats where it’s like a right-angle are just insane though.
The Deadlift’s such a compound exercise and I think that when people say that they don’t get much from it it’s probably a sign that they’re both already strong in general and physically well-balanced- I started deadlifting after my first shambolic visit to Malham as basically a weakling who was rubbish at sport and bouldering and who’d had no strength or athletic experience before coming to climbing. Deadlifting weekly for about 7 months took me to a point where I was competent at what you’d call the lower end of hard climbing and no longer had a problem with keeping my feet on in particular, which had been unfathomable to me before.
Likewise after my accident I literally couldn’t move and it’s been a very useful part of approaching normality again. In neither case has it made me look physically different but the way that you’re stressing pretty much your whole body and using it in one coordinated movement is so good at toughening you up if you need to leave that state of being a total weakling!
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I’ll just throw in a relevant link to the Lancet overview, which provides links to recent research, for those that don’t need or want to plough through Meakin’s blogs:
https://www.thelancet.com/series/low-back-pain (https://www.thelancet.com/series/low-back-pain)
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Appropriate deadlifts get my vote, particularly as you get older.
Strengthen core.
Strengthen posterior chain.
Stimulates production of testosterone.
Stimulates CNS.
Engages more of the body than any other exercise.
Biggest gains in strength for relatively few reps.
Worth some coaching though, at the very least to advise on what is best lift for you based on limb/torso length etc. and ensure best form.
As an aside, trap bar deadlifts are generally considered much less hazardous for the back.
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It’s funny how people are so specific about finger injuries but just say “I’ve hurt my back” with no further info like it’s a really simple thing. Probably why there are so many different things that work for different people- they’ve all injured (or are aggravating) a very complex structure in different ways.
True enough. I have a muscle between my shoulderblades (not traps, but possibly lat where it sits under trap) which "goes" once or twice a year, last time was picking a t shirt up off the floor, but also one picking up toothbrush, and once filling a cup with water. It will go into spasm and hurt for half a day, I normally need to lie on a hard rubber ball for half an hour to work the tightness out. I can tell when it's going to go though, something goes out of alignment and it feels strange for a few days.
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One of my daily core exercises, while waiting for coffee machine is to hold edge of worktop with palms facing outwards and lift up so knees are at worktop level and hold for 20 - 30 secs (kind of a holding a half mantel). Definitely gets me shaking like a shitting dog.
Make sure you don't risk impaling yourself on a milk bottle or anything on the worktop if your hands slip.
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One of my daily core exercises, while waiting for coffee machine is to hold edge of worktop with palms facing outwards and lift up so knees are at worktop level and hold for 20 - 30 secs (kind of a holding a half mantel). Definitely gets me shaking like a shitting dog.
Make sure you don't risk impaling yourself on a milk bottle or anything on the worktop if your hands slip.
Sounds like this would mostly be training scapular depression and protraction? Great for climbers I'd imagine as we only ever do the opposite. Touch wood, I feel like hard scapular training has bullet-proofed my shoulders.
Planche leans are a favourite for shoulder protraction. You can be really objective with progressively overloading it by having your head softly touch a wall (so you know you're not pulling back to make it easier) and using a tape measure to progressively get your hands further from the wall. Elbows strictly locked out. I "Max hang" it with 10s holds.
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I've started doing a lot of crawling exercises such as bear crawl, monkey crawl etc from GMB essentials. Sorted my elbows out 5 years ago and done the same again (via strengthening the shoulder) doesn't feel onerous, actually quite good fun.
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Have you tried any of their other programs Dave. Enjoyed Elements and been doing it again a bit recently, even better now it's been upgraded. Tempted to try one of the more advanced programs but struggling to commit.
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Nope. Just muck about with their free stuff. Still very beneficial for me.