UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: abarro81 on August 11, 2015, 11:55:26 am
-
Someone on the other channel said that they've recently tried this and got good feeling results with it (for a collateral injury). Will google more about it later but anyone on here experimented with it before?
http://www.hcrbeta.com/climbers-should-experiment-with-voodoo-flossing/
-
My yoga teacher mentioned this to me when we were talking about my tennis elbow a few months back, so automatically dismissed it as bunkum.
-
Gary Reinl is the trainer of trainers.
Who is the trainer of Gary Reinl?!
Sounds interesting, hope I don't need it.
-
It means he trains athletic footwear.
-
Gary Reinl is the trainer of trainers.
Who is the trainer of Gary Reinl?!
It is obviously Chuck Norris.
-
I once heard the well-known dreaded tearing noise from my finger as I was crimping my way up a route. The finger swelled at the knuckle and I was in pain. Two days later I was going on a short trip to Hell in Norway, and was well psyched for that.
In my desperation I did the fuck-it-lets-deny-it™ treatment of my finger, and arrived in Hell two days later with a slightly less swollen finger.
I ate a bunch of paracetamol and climbed as hard as I could for the whole weekend. My finger got better and better over the days. A week later there was no swelling and no pain. Now 10 years later I've never had any problem in that joint or even that finger since.
True story.
Don't come with any annoying comments about anecdotes, sample size, alternative treatments, initial misdiagnosis, or any of that stupid science shit.
I've got voodoo.
-
Yeah that was me on UKC, my name is Rob.
It has a stupid name, you can buy overpriced products to perform it and my N=1 but it bloody well fixed a two year old injury in 2 days so go figure :shrug:
I pulled/ tore the collateral ligament in my middle finger dynoing for a hold at the castle. Did I see a physio? nope Did I rest it? nope Did I do any rehab? Nope.
It felt fine to climb on unless it was knocked sideways. I even took two months off climbing during a stressful house purchase and when I got back into climbing it strangely got worse swelling up after every climbing session.
I had a coaching session with Robin o'Leary a couple of weeks ago and he told me if I wanted it to get better I would have to do something active to resolve it. Robin suggested squeezing a ball between my injured figures, this seemed to help and may have worked eventually but the problem remained.
I then found the video Barrows attached, cut a strip of rubber off a theraband and wrapped it around my finger and then moved my finger through the fall range of motion. The sensation was like a good, slightly painful stretch. I repeated the process at work every hour or so and went from limited range of movement to full range with no pain.
This is all just for info, I'm not trying to sell anything/prove a point.
-
Cheers Rob. I cut the end off a theraband this afternoon and tried it.. will continue for a while and post back any thoughts on here
-
I've found it to be effective for treating tennis and golfers elbow flare ups. Just made my own band out of a used bicycle inner tube. What have you got to lose? I would agree though that the linked article is a bit too "click bait" for my liking. The videos on the mobility wod website on this topic are far more palatable.
-
I'm going to give this a go for my niggling a2 to see if it makes any difference. Think it's healed for the most part but it's still not quite right. I saw a few videos on "flossing" on mobility WOD a while back but didn't realise it could be used on a finger. I briefly tried it on my ankle to try and restore some range of motion but forgot to continue.
-
how's it going for everyone?
I did it on the hour all day yesterday and my tweaky finger just feels more agitated than anything else. Undecided as to whether I should continue today.
-
Seems to do it a bit of good. Gets the blood rushing in the finger which can't be a bad thing. My finger is nearly healed so its hard to say if the flossing is helping that much or if it just coincides with the natural recovery but the niggling feeling near my A2 is pretty much gone.
-
my finger goes pink afterwards - same as with lewis reaction thing
-
my finger goes pink afterwards - same as with lewis reaction thing
Yeah, I think thats part of the benefit of it. I really struggle to get the lewis reaction to happen so anything that is more reliable is a win in my books.
-
Gets the blood rushing in the finger which can't be a bad thing.
Except initially, in the phase of acute inflammation where you prob dont want to increase bloodflow.
-
Reckon this is going to be topic du jour for a while! Bro-science..
Makes sense in theory to break up and mobilise the tissue surfaces and flush it all out - that's pretty much what deep friction massage is doing. An interesting way of doing it. Bit like isolating a trigger point in a tight forearm using a hard ball, and then flexing/extending the arm.
Just got a tweaked rotator cuff/bicep tendon (not sure which yet) last night so going to be trying this in a few days' time when the inflammation has gone down a little. Shoulder wrapping looks a mission.
Seems adhesions play a significant role in symptoms post injury healing - I have an issue with nerve adhesion following surgery, which I need to manage from time to time. The sheath of the sciatic nerve occasionally gets a little stuck to some scar tissue left by surgery, and the way to relieve the resulting discomfort is nerve flossing.
-
Gets the blood rushing in the finger which can't be a bad thing.
Except initially, in the phase of acute inflammation where you prob dont want to increase bloodflow.
Indeed. I don't think I have seen this technique being mentioned at any time in relation to the early stages of healing an injury. Seems to work for later stage rehab and repair. I guess thats one of the areas of recovery that isn't very well understood by the average punter. Pain doesn't necessarily correlate to injury and once the physical damage is repaired there can still be a lot of issues with scar tissue etc.
-
After a few days trying this I've found it makes my finger feel nice and flushed out for a few min after but has changed nothing on actual holds, as might be expected given the timeframe
-
After a few days trying this I've found it makes my finger feel nice and flushed out for a few min after but has changed nothing on actual holds, as might be expected given the timeframe
What are you hoping to fix and what stage in the recovery are you at?
-
I shall try this out on my permafucked left middle finger. If it works, I'm moving for it to be renamed a less pseudoscientific bullshit-sounding name.
-
After a few days trying this I've found it makes my finger feel nice and flushed out for a few min after but has changed nothing on actual holds, as might be expected given the timeframe
What are you hoping to fix and what stage in the recovery are you at?
I've got an old collateral ligament injury. It's basically fixed but that finger clicks and crunches extensively whenever I put it into extension after flexing it closed first so I think there's a lot of scar tissue etc in there. Picked up a slight pulley tweak too in the finger but that's pretty minor, I have a suspicion that it may partly be down to all the shit n that finger making the tendons and pulleys not run smoothly.
-
Worked suspiciously well on my long term shoulder pain. It came back with a vengeance by the end of play yesterday, tried this for four 2 minute pumps this morning, pain gone!!! Enough to encourage me to keep it going throughout rest days for awhile. :2thumbsup:
-
Worked suspiciously well on my long term shoulder pain. It came back with a vengeance by the end of play yesterday, tried this for four 2 minute pumps this morning, pain gone!!! Enough to encourage me to keep it going throughout rest days for awhile. :2thumbsup:
How did you wrap your shoulder?
-
Worked suspiciously well on my long term shoulder pain. It came back with a vengeance by the end of play yesterday, tried this for four 2 minute pumps this morning, pain gone!!! Enough to encourage me to keep it going throughout rest days for awhile. :2thumbsup:
How did you wrap your shoulder?
Used an old lightweight thearaband, with wife's assistance wrapped from mid bicep up to armpit and over the deltoid ... Fairy tight. I then did my usual "shoulder opening " routine ( foam roller along the spine, 1.5 Kg in each hand, arms spread, gradually stretching with slight lift on the inhale and drop on the exhale)...and a few light bicep curls.
-
Cheers.
-
Ok my experience with wrapping/flossing after one session this evening:
Niggles:
I have a load of scar tissue in left shoulder from a mixed climbing injury 8 years ago - managed with regular stretching and massage.
Niggling tennis elbow in right elbow - I manage it with eccentrics and massage (ergonomic mouse/keyboard at work may help) and it doesn't stop me doing anything.
Niggling scar tissue in PIP joint of LH index following an old tweak - doesn't hold me back.
3 days ago I tweaked I think the bicep longhead in right shoulder while frigging on draws, currently painful when I flex bicep.
I wrapped the left shoulder and did some range of motion and bicep tendon stretches as per the youtube vid you'll no doubt find if you search.
Then did same on right shoulder.
Then wrapped right forearm and elbow and performed ROM/eccentrics
Finished by wrapping the RH index and doing ROM.
Results:
Left shoulder has better range of motion than it has had in many years, after 3 mins.. That's not subjective it's objective - I can lie down and lift my left arm overhead and touch the back of hand on the ground. I haven't been able to do that for years without forcing it, even after massage.
Right shoulder - reduced pain, good ROM without pain - better than before wrapping.
Elbow/forearm - feels good and well flushed.
Finger - better ROM than before wrapping.
I'm impressed.
-
I don't know if it's doing anything yet but I glossed five times today. My finger feels nice immediately after flossing but it's too early to tell until I get on some rocks to find out. I guess I'll find out tomorrow morning whether it hurts when I wake up too.
-
I glossed five times today.
Should get a nice finish then?
-
I've tried using cut up theraband but it seems quite difficult to get it to work. For a start I can barely fit the strips between my teeth at all, and when I do it doesn't seem to shift any plaque. Where am I going wrong?
-
Fricking telephones and alcohol-induced reluctance to proof-read!
Glossing over that matter, I'm not entirely sure it's helping my finger, but perhaps I need to give it more time. On Sunday morning the usual dull pain when I wake up was gone, but it was back this morning after climbing yesterday. I'll stick with it though and see if it helps after a bouldering session.
-
There's no question that flossing is improving the range of motion in my left shoulder. Been flossing this over the weekend a few times a day and the shoulder is the best it's felt in years, better than after sports massage which was my previous go-to for loosening it up.
Flossing has also noticably loosened up my forearms after climbing, and the minor niggling tennis elbow I've had for the last few months has gone.
Tried it on my hamsting insertion/psoas on sunday and it immediately improved range of motion.
It's great!
-
Flossing has also noticably loosened up my forearms after climbing
Was talking to 3-9 about this earlier on FB, we were wondering if it would be good post-climbing/training recovery tool to flush blood around the arms a bit
-
Flossing has also noticably loosened up my forearms after climbing
Was talking to 3-9 about this earlier on FB, we were wondering if it would be good post-climbing/training recovery tool to flush blood around the arms a bit
Don't know if this is a good idea, but I've been doing it to my fingers as the first part of my warm up, to flush the blood to them. Seems to work quite well.
-
And so, the hobby of climbing takes another step closer to wearing rubberised gimp suits permanently.
-
another flimsy excuse to put in a big order for bondage tape
-
I've tried using cut up theraband but it seems quite difficult to get it to work. For a start I can barely fit the strips between my teeth at all, and when I do it doesn't seem to shift any plaque. Where am I going wrong?
It's the little doll's teeth that you floss, not your own.
-
Flossing has also noticably loosened up my forearms after climbing
Was talking to 3-9 about this earlier on FB, we were wondering if it would be good post-climbing/training recovery tool to flush blood around the arms a bit
I had the same thought and think it'll be really good for this - it flushes the shit out of muscle tissue. I also think it'll be a great warm-up for climbing. I'm going to try it at the diamond this evening before a burn on The Shining.
-
Following my previous comment about it aggravating my finger, I can confirm that flossing is actually quite brilliant.
I strained my A2 pulley on my LH ring finger about 9 months ago and it never really fully recovered. My PIP joint has been slightly swollen since and would hurt a tad if I squeezed the sides, or if made a really tight fist. Furthermore, the pulley would hurt if I probed it in certain places.
On grit I could climb as hard as I pleased, but whenever I pushed myself too much indoors my finger would ache and become quite stiff the following days, and sometimes swell a little more.
For the first day I flossed whilst flexing and that's what caused the aggravation. So instead I just kept my finger stationary for the minute of flossing, with the aim to simply promote some serious blood flow, like icing.
Anyway, the PIP swelling has effectively gone, squeezing the joint produces negligible pain and an A2 massage produces considerably less pain than previously. Although there's still progress to be made there.
It's obviously early days and I've yet to pull hard with my new slender finger. But currently, I am really impressed.
-
In the link that Barrows posted it mentions at the end about a follow up article on de-pumping using voodoo flossing.
It sounds logical but you would look like a right tool at the crag/wall.
-
Oh and when you read some of the more thoughtful literature around compression wrapping/tack n wrap/voodoo flossing, nitric oxide is quite widely theorised to play an important role. There's your beetroot shots again.
-
I've tried using cut up theraband but it seems quite difficult to get it to work. For a start I can barely fit the strips between my teeth at all, and when I do it doesn't seem to shift any plaque. Where am I going wrong?
It's the little doll's teeth that you floss, not your own.
:slap:
-
Pete, have you been wrapping your shoulder/elbow as per these videos?
Shoulder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARQqB5NBDYs
Elbow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZG_9O_mAgM
Also, have you guys mostly just been using strips of theraband?
-
Also, have you guys mostly just been using strips of theraband?
yep, chopped about 250 mm off the end of my black theraband and then cut that into a 30 mm wide ribbon. Similar to the picture in the link in the original post.
-
Chopped a strip about 2cm wide from the end of my theraband. The stuff is ridiculously hard to cut nicely though and I always end up with little snips along the length that eventually open up and ruin it.
-
I shall try this out on my permafucked left middle finger. If it works, I'm moving for it to be renamed a less pseudoscientific bullshit-sounding name.
East European nomenclature is the way to go, redolent as it is of secret, hardcore and possibly dangerous Cold War training techniques.
"The Ukranian Compress" would excite me
-
The Belarussian flushin'?
-
Turkish tack'n'wrap.
JonB - yeah pretty much.
Like this for shoulder if no-one willing to help wrap you in rubber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMzELPcP6o
I didn't have any wide therabands lying around so I bought a black voodoo band on amazon. Think you want something thick and durable, fingers would be ok with less.
-
I've been using an old mountain bike inner tube cut in half length ways.
p.s. you might want to cut the value out if you try this.
-
Been flossing some long standing A2 injuries for past 3 days and the results are remarkable. Fingers significantly less painful and feel much stronger again. I'm all for a good placebo, and this one is definitely working for me.
-
Having read on this a bit, if its stimulating the lymphatic system to repair injuries, does this mean it'll do any good on the type of non-trauma elbow niggles we get where its not actually an elbow injury, it'll be an imbalance/tightness in shoulder/back that manifests itself in the elbow? I've tried it a couple of times on my elbow, and aside from the initial (thank fuck that's off" when you unwrap it, it doesn't seem to have made any tangible difference.
-
You tried a foam roller on forearms?
-
I don't reckon it'll have much effect on elbow as they are more often than not, referred pain from your back as you said.
My understanding is that it's effective on areas which have been damaged directly and have scar tissue build up and acute swelling.
My attempts on the elbow leave it feeling good for about 10 minutes then pain returns as it's not swelling in my elbow which is the actual problem.
-
Them lower trapezius exercises which cofe has been 'prescribed' are helping my elbows I reckon.
-
Another anecdote - I told the physio who I see for sports massage about voodoo flossing, and lent her my spare band on Monday. She tried it out on her 3 month old knee injury and reported today that she found it to be the most effective treatment yet for improving pain-free range of motion. Said she was suitably impressed that she's going to research it more so that she may be able to offer it to clients.
-
I bet you told her she could keep it ;)
-
Another anecdote - I told the physio who I see for sports massage about voodoo flossing, and lent her my spare band on Monday. She tried it out on her 3 month old knee injury and reported today that she found it to be the most effective treatment yet for improving pain-free range of motion. Said she was suitably impressed that she's going to research it more so that she may be able to offer it to clients.
Are you invoicing her c/o Lagerstarfish Consulting Services?
-
Just took delivery of some voodoo floss band - I'll have a chat with my physio when we're climbing on Sunday but if I'm looking after all my own niggles in Spain, it won't hurt to have it in my van.
-
This is ridiculously hard to put on your own elbow :wall:
Will report findings
-
So now that a bit of time has passed, anything to report from people who's been trying it? As in long term improvements, whether it definitely helped injuries, etc?
-
Pfft... voodoo flossing is so mid-August. ;)
I spent a week's holiday aggravating my tweaky-feeling fingers (and my girlfriend) by constantly flossing. Resting for a bit worked better.
-
I have been wrapping and flossing a sore knee and I am sure it helps with short term pain reduction and increased ROM. I am not sure if it makes any long term difference to the rate of recovery, but it is hard to say definatively as I only have one knee (that is sore).
-
Been meaning to post on this too... you just reminded me...
I tweaked my collateral on middle finger quite badly last week at the wall, very sore when I got home, painful enough to wake me from my sleep that night. Gave it a day then flossed it on the hour all day.
Astonished by the results.. pretty much pain free by the end of the day, much better range of motion (generally). Did the same the next day, then have only done it occasionally since.
One week later and apart from the at the extreme end of range of motion, there is no pain at all. Fairly happy to go to the wall tomorrow and take it easy at first, but I'm reasonably confident of a good session.
Hmmm - now to try and fix this shoulder!!
PS - Sam - what were you using to wrap the knee - a theraband? or something more dedicated ?
-
A bike inner tube with the valve cut out...
-
I have been wrapping and flossing a sore knee and I am sure it helps with short term pain reduction and increased ROM. I am not sure if it makes any long term difference to the rate of recovery, but it is hard to say definatively as I only have one knee (that is sore).
Seconding the short term pain reduction and ROM thing. I floss my wrists before and after each climbing session and it definitely helps in that respect. Difficult to comment on long term recovery, not least since I've been neglecting the necessary rehab work.
-
Can we not lure someone into tweaking an A2 on each hand (full crimp monos anyone :-\ ) and then get them to vodoo floss one finger and not the other. That would be muchly scientifical.
-
Voodoo flossing my A2 seems to make it feel better sometimes and not so good other times. Bit odd really.
-
Mmmh... Ok, so from what i gather, flossing usually gives short term improvements which can be handy to work around the injury until it heals in its normal way, but it doesn't make it heal faster or work in long term injuries other than the short term pain relief and ROM improvements. It may also in some cases aggravate the injury, but also short term?
Did i get that right?
-
It worked wonders on my left shoulder which is full of old scar tissue from a 7 years-old rotator cuff tear to 3 of the 4 rc muscles. One session of flossing gave better pain-free ROM than any physio ever has.
Flossing didn't produce any noticeable results on my injured bicep longhead tendon in my other arm/shoulder. It neither aggravated nor improved it.
The physio I see fairly regularly tried it out on her injured knee (fell-running fall) and reported it gave noticeable improved pain-free ROM. She ditched it when was able to continue other rehab stuff.
It seems good for older injuries/scar tissue - better than self massage/sports massage IMO.
-
Them lower trapezius exercises which cofe has been 'prescribed' are helping my elbows I reckon.
Which are?
-
I shall try this out on my permafucked left middle finger. If it works, I'm moving for it to be renamed a less pseudoscientific bullshit-sounding name.
To be honest I pretty much like the name. It sounds like seriously involved in voodoo, and therefor I think about it as going to New Orleans into a hidden underground place, having a fat woman put needles in a rag doll that is incredibly looking like you despite the fact that you've never been there before, and get out fully sorted and ready for a few days out on alcohol, drugs and prostitutes, before flying back home with a big smile to climb 8b+.
-
It worked wonders on my left shoulder which is full of old scar tissue from a 7 years-old rotator cuff tear to 3 of the 4 rc muscles. One session of flossing gave better pain-free ROM than any physio ever has.
Flossing didn't produce any noticeable results on my injured bicep longhead tendon in my other arm/shoulder. It neither aggravated nor improved it.
The physio I see fairly regularly tried it out on her injured knee (fell-running fall) and reported it gave noticeable improved pain-free ROM. She ditched it when was able to continue other rehab stuff.
It seems good for older injuries/scar tissue - better than self massage/sports massage IMO.
I agree with Pete on this - I tried it on an old ankle injury and got a quick increase in pain free ROM that multiple painful sports massages had failed to achieve.
-
Well done everyone, your painstaking research has now confirmed voodoo flossing actually works :-\
http://www.hcrbeta.com/confirmed-voodoo-flossing-helps-climbing-injuries/
-
:o
-
If I claim Voodoo flossing made my Knob grow, do you think they will use that as an endorsement as well.
-
Any chance to get some links or something as to how to do it for the ankle, Ally?
I think i may give it a try next week since i have some days off work in case it makes it worse and i end up under home arrest :doubt:
-
Them lower trapezius exercises which cofe has been 'prescribed' are helping my elbows I reckon.
Which are?
:jab: I'd like to know too please
-
Well done everyone, your painstaking research has now confirmed voodoo flossing actually works :-\
http://www.hcrbeta.com/confirmed-voodoo-flossing-helps-climbing-injuries/
:dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
Step one towards world domination successful. On to step two. Anyone know what step 2 is?
-
Well done everyone, your painstaking research has now confirmed voodoo flossing actually works :-\
http://www.hcrbeta.com/confirmed-voodoo-flossing-helps-climbing-injuries/
:dance1: :dance1: :dance1: :dance1:
Step one towards world domination successful. On to step two. Anyone know what step 2 is?
:shrug: I didn't think we'd make it this far.
-
Not sure about Step 2, but Step 3 - Profit!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts
-
I'm deeply disappointed I'm not quoted
-
Them lower trapezius exercises which cofe has been 'prescribed' are helping my elbows I reckon.
Which are?
:jab: I'd like to know too please
Don't get too excited, it's for lower and mid traps and scapula stability mainly to help with referred nerve pain in my elbow, rather than elbow tendonics. Dumbell rows, horizontal rows with rings, prone Ys, plank, TRX, some theraband plus other conditioning stuff like push ups or benching. Think it's working, though it's so long since I've climbed on rock I've lost all perspective.
-
losing all perspective is the first step
knowing that you have lost all perspective is the third step
one foot in the past
one foot in the future
pissing on the present
-
losing all perspective is the first step
knowing that you have lost all perspective is the third step
one foot in the past
one foot in the future
pissing on the present
But what's the second step ?
-
I'm deeply disappointed I'm not quoted
I'm disappointed that he quoted everything I said, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about at the best of times. Least of all when it comes to pseudo-physiology.
It's obviously early days and I've yet to pull hard with my new slender finger. But currently, I am really impressed.
It is true that voodoo flossing sorted out my year long slightly swollen knuckle symptoms. But it was only a few weeks until it was re-aggrivated by some not too strenuous climbing. So 3 months later it's not fully healed and I'm now very careful with it instead of flossing.
Having been to the physio about something completely unrelated (elbows issues), I was diagnosed with ulnar nerve entrapment and given some ulnar nerve flossing exercises to do. The exercises (massage forearms, bend arm to head and rotate wrists etc.) are to help the nerve slide up and down through the muscle tissue to help free it from the stress it's currently under. So it dawned on me that Voodoo flossing may just be a new radical method of nerve flossing. (I did do a lot of reading about Voodoo flossing and may have overlooked this.)
Would a physio ever get you to nerve floss your finger? I don't know. Does Voodoo flossing our fingers only work as an uber quick icing alternative? I don't know. Should I use Voodoo flossing for my elbow? It depends on what my physio says next time I speak to him. Since I don't really know anything, should I stop posting in this thread? Perhaps, I don't know.
-
'Flossing' is descriptive of the nerve movement the nerve flossing exercises are proposed to produce. Other than sharing the same name, I don't see they have any similarity with 'voodoo flossing'.
The positive effects of VF may be due to compression, in which case voodoo wrap would be a better name or perhaps BICAM (Brief Intense Compression and Mobilisation)? However, if folk here are anything to go by, VF seems to work better for people with persistent pain. This is unlikely to be anything to do with reducing swelling. I can't see how it would promote breaking up scar tissue any more effectively than just climbing.
Squeezing and moving a joint simultaneously is a lot like a physiotherapy technique called "Mobilisation with Movement (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1356689X96902593)". As with other joint mobilisation techniques, the pain relief is most likely to be due to neurophysiological effects (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279214653_The_mechanism_of_action_of_spinal_mobilisations_a_systematic_review) . This would fit with the very rapid changes some report.
-
I've tried compression wrapping with red theraband on my recently dodgy middle finger, proximal IP joint, for the last couple of weeks. As others report, there is a pleasant pinkness and warmth for a few minutes after, suggesting increased blood flow.
What strikes me most is that the theraband offers considerable resistance to flexing the finger joints. If you follow the protocol described, ie 1-2 minutes two dozen times daily, you're doing several hundred joint movements against resistance every day. This is certainly a good thing for a chronically swollen finger joint. Whether resistance via the wrapping is is better or worse than just squeezing putty, a ball, or a 'gripsaver', or whether the wrapping offers additional benefit, is open to question.
Overall impression: my finger is feeling a bit better but I'm not convinced the improvement is any greater than if had I done regular gentle exercises without the wrapping.