UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Oldmanmatt on January 18, 2021, 05:06:53 pm
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Mark K (area chair) has shared the mentioned meeting to the SW sports climbing partners FB page, with a link to a UKC article that is broken...
Anybody know what’s up? If it wasn’t almost dark and peeing down, I’d walk over, but...
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Probably this https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/crag_maintenance_vs_landscaping-729908
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Well, looks like a walk with the camera tomorrow.
Only went down there just before Xmas, so it must be recent. Or not obvious from the path down to Redgate.
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Back in September somebody terraced a path across the bottom of empire wall, as in where you walk to get to ferocity wall. Seemed odd, as it wasn't really an issue compared to other slopes that are crumbling away. Didn't seem particularly offensive though. Is it really torbay wildlife trust land?
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Some proper frothing outrage on ukc. What's the view from people who actually climb there, is it a big deal?
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I’ve not been in a few years :( but the bit where you belay for Uzi in my pocket was a pain in the arse and eroding badly back then. Seems OTT to patio the floor to ferocity wall (under might and main?) unless things have radically changed in recent years.
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It could be frothing at the mouth, but it could be the kind of thing a landowner takes a dim view about. I thought the photos made the 'landscaping' look quite messy but it's hard to tell without seeing the real thing. Seems sensible to establish a BMC view quickly, especially if the landowner turns out to be unimpressed.
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Some classic UKC antics over there.
That slope was a real mess as WFT says. Haven't seen the work to be able to comment on whether it's a good solution or not. The pictures look like it's quite extensive!
Hopefully climbing at the cove will be banned forever and everyone will have to get stuck into South Devon conglomerate climbing.
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It could be frothing at the mouth, but it could be the kind of thing a landowner takes a dim view about. I thought the photos made the 'landscaping' look quite messy but it's hard to tell without seeing the real thing. Seems sensible to establish a BMC view quickly, especially if the landowner turns out to be unimpressed.
Where are the photos?
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There's a Flickr link on the thread somewhere.
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Where are the photos?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/191763693@N06/sets/72157717859550863/
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There's a Flickr link on the thread somewhere.
Whoa, bloody hell that looks like Hamburger Hill. It looks good at the base of Uzi/Heathen Man but the rest looks like the chap has had a few sugary drinks and some gabba on. Extensive. Shame the tree isn't there to soften Tom Newberry's ground sweepings falls...
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:o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-rlqksRaLc&t=29s
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Depends who you talk to but levels of outrage vary. A lone wolf, permission from land owner and consensus not sought. Apparently there are nice flat terraces under each of the routes on Empire wall but the quality of workmanship is leading some to question whether they will stay nice and flat. We'll see what happens after some heavy rain.
It's all going on down here......... In other news.. Someone(?) has bolted a line on the Culm at Menanchurch Point in the last week or 2 which has provoked a fierce response.
Should be an interesting meeting. :popcorn:
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Depends who you talk to but levels of outrage vary. A lone wolf, permission from land owner and consensus not sought. Apparently there are nice flat terraces under each of the routes on Empire wall but the quality of workmanship is leading some to question whether they will stay nice and flat. We'll see what happens after some heavy rain.
It's all going on down here......... In other news.. Someone(?) has bolted a line on the Culm at Menanchurch Point in the last week or 2 which has provoked a fierce response.
Should be an interesting meeting. :popcorn:
Given the rain, right now, I wonder...
I will go for a look tomorrow.
Edit.
Just checked forecast. Rain and gales until late Wed.
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Bloody heck. Extensive.
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There is the obvious point that this has been done without any consultation with the land owner, or other climbers (apart from apparently canvassing opinions at the crag - certainly nothing raised via the BMC).
Leaving that aside, the next issue is the quality and extent of the work that has been undertaken. Obviously it's difficult to say definitively without visiting in person (and in any event I'm not a land management expert), but from the video it looks like a real mess to me.
Admittedly erosion was an issue underneath the Empire wall. However, I question the durability of the terraces of earth and stones that have been erected - and if nothing else it looks a complete eyesore.
I question the wisdom of the way this has been undertaken, but am sure it was done with good intentions - clearly a lot effort has been expended. I hope that the debate can focus on the issues, rather than personal criticism - otherwise it only serves to discourage people from consulting properly in the future.
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...and if nothing else it looks a complete eyesore.
I agree with what you're saying, but on this point: this kinda thing always looks shit just after it's been done. Given a year or two Im sure it'll look a lot better.
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In other news.. Someone(?) has bolted a line on the Culm at Menanchurch Point in the last week or 2 which has provoked a fierce response.
Should be an interesting meeting. :popcorn:
That FB thread about the Culm bolts was carnage! I only read half of it before needing to get on with some work, and can't find it now. Has Stu deleted it?
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this kinda thing always looks shit just after it's been done. Given a year or two Im sure it'll look a lot better.
Yeah maybe, I guess we'll see. Possibly still an issue if the landowner (Torbay Council?) gets wind and sees what look like a mess caused by climbers in the meantime.
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Re the culm bolts.
Stu has removed the post at ut all ended up being a bit playground and getting no where. I have some pics of the nice shiny bolts having gone down for a quick go on Friday only to find the first three drill holes bolt less! Lovely looking peice of wall now desecrated by four shiny bolts and 3 drill holes or ready to go depending on your point of view?
With regards to Ansteys I've not been but have seen all the pics and videos and it does look a bit over the top. Some of the steps off the end of those terraces look rather large. Its more difficult to tell it being winter as well but those images sure make it look like a bit of a bomb has gone off! I'm not expert but I'm worried about the longevity of some of those terraces. Clearly the big issue however is permission and land ownership its in an area of SSSI I think which may cause a few issues. Perhaps a softly softly do a little see how it goes approach would have been better?
At least this weather will give his workmanship a good testing!
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...and if nothing else it looks a complete eyesore.
I agree with what you're saying, but on this point: this kinda thing always looks shit just after it's been done. Given a year or two Im sure it'll look a lot better.
Even by May it may look alright. Weird to do that much in one go if there’s no permission. If it were me (and I’m not a rabid patio builder) I’d have done it little bit by little bit... and maybe not in a Sssi!!
It’s a big job though! A couple or more people working for more than a couple of days at it...
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According to the ukc thread all the work was done by one guy.
Although he didn't cut any trees down his none climbing assistant did that and only with a hand saw!
Looks like a fair few trees have been felled!
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Re the culm bolts.
Stu has removed the post at ut all ended up being a bit playground and getting no where. I have some pics of the nice shiny bolts having gone down for a quick go on Friday only to find the first three drill holes bolt less! Lovely looking peice of wall now desecrated by four shiny bolts and 3 drill holes or ready to go depending on your point of view?
From the posts I read there was a lot of people getting unnecessarily personal rather than focusing on issues - which as intimated above is counter-productive.
I would be interested to see the pictures Macca if you are happy to PM them to me? I promise not to use them to reignite the argument! BTW - what sports grade did the line go at?
Cheers, Luke.
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Hi Luke
Yes it all seemed to get a bit petty and old vs young etc etc
More than happy to send over the pics they aren't great as to see the boolts you have to get pretty close and then you don't really get a feel for where they are on the wall but more than willing to share.
Didn't get on the route as i said the first three bolts were missing with just the holes there! Also thought I might get lynched!
Cheers macca
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More than happy to send over the pics they aren't great as to see the boolts you have to get pretty close and then you don't really get a feel for where they are on the wall but more than willing to share.
Didn't get on the route as i said the first three bolts were missing with just the holes there! Also thought I might get lynched!
Cheers macca
Fair enough - I was more interested to get a look at the wall as a whole. I've climbed at Maer Cliff a bit, but don't think I've ever wandered along to Menachurch.
In the interests of full disclosure I'm pretty much in the anti-bolt camp - but no lynchings from me!
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If you send me your number i can whatsapp you the topo for the wall the bolts are on. It gives you an idea of the line and then with images of the bolts you get a reasonable idea of whats what and how it all fits together.
I'm personally definitely not anti bolt but in noway shape or form am pro bolting of trad routes. I'm a trad climber and certainly don't want to see trad routes retroed however I do feel there is a discussion to be had around bolts in the right place. Its just an incredibly difficult equation to balance as once it starts there's no going back.
However this example does feel wrong. I'm slightly conflicted as it does open up a lovely looking peice of rock to be climbed however the cost is too great not every peice of rock has to be climbed and it doesn't even go to the top of the wall. A large price to pay for a small insignificant thing.
Let me know if you want the images
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The concerns you have expressed there reflect my own feelings pretty well. I’ll PM you my number in a moment.
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It's the second line that has been bolted in that cave. Simon Young bolted an 8b ish route what must be over 10 years ago. I believe someone travelled from London to chop but couldn't manage the job because it's so steep. Subsequently they were removed by Simon and he led the route on trad gear...or something like that... (point being it's the 2nd time that cave has been bolted).
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I’m not averse to a bit of active crag management, w/wo landowner permission. In reality in many/most cases the landowner is unlikely to give consent, and would be sharing liability if they did give consent for an activity that’s not strictly legal. Which is all very well for low impact works that would probably go unnoticed in the short term and naturalise rapidly thereafter. The Ansteys work though looks ill-judged to me. The steepness of the slope makes the repairs look unstable and the works are clearly too big to go mostly unnoticed. It looks like a mountain to fix a molehill. That said I'm unconvinced a lengthy public argument on UKC is going to aid in minimising access fallout.
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:agree:
Thats exactly what I was trying to say a few posts up!
I think the op of the ukc thread was just trying to point out the potential issues and get him to stop. However if you read the protagonists reply it appears he really doesn't see that a softly softly approach would have been the best way forward.
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It looks like a mountain to fix a molehill.
Without getting in to the quality of the work, belaying anything left of Empire of the Sun was pretty questy and if the work ends up making it easier it'd be a significant improvement in that respect.
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It looks like a mountain to fix a molehill.
Without getting in to the quality of the work, belaying anything left of Empire of the Sun was pretty questy and if the work ends up making it easier it'd be a significant improvement in that respect.
you've got a pretty low baseline level for questy in that case remus!
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I guess the question is at what cost? As a long time ansteys devotee said to me. I've managed to climb there safely for 30 years without feeling the need for any of this.
Just because it makes our life easier does it mean it should happen, especially with such a high cost! The odd boulder moved a branch used to level off ok but this??
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It looks like a mountain to fix a molehill.
Without getting in to the quality of the work, belaying anything left of Empire of the Sun was pretty questy and if the work ends up making it easier it'd be a significant improvement in that respect.
you've got a pretty low baseline level for questy in that case remus!
You know me Duma, Im such a delicate flower :-*
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I’ve just come back up to Walls hill from the “terraces”. It’s blowing a gale. I’ll walk home a process the images.
I cannot see this ending well. The works are massive and already falling down. I counted 20 stumps and there are huge stacks of cut wood. I went hoping it would be a storm in a tea cup.
It doesn’t help that there are tools and buckets left all over too. More in a mo.
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I don't really want to stick my oar into a situation that I know nothing about, but the terraces do look like something that would give a civil engineer nightmares. Entropy has a habit of exerting its will on things like that.
And +1 to what Bonjoy said.
I think we do need to be taking more proactive steps to sort out issues like this at popular crags, though that's not to say that this is the way to go about it. I don't know whether it has really been worse this year than others, or whether we're just talking about it more, but paths do seem to be completely fucked at the moment. The proposed work to fix the field at Almscliff should have been done years ago. The tracks at Caley seemed particularly fucked up this year. Moughton Nab needs a proper stile putting in to stop the wall falling down. etc etc
The Don't Ask, Don't Tell stance might be the right thing for less popular crags, but for well-trafficked venues we ought to be proactively approaching landowners and offering to fix the issues. The Northumberland lot have a whip round every year to buy the key landowners a nice hamper at Christmas time.
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Thanks very much for that Matt. That sounds worse than I had feared. The ground under the Empire wall was starting to look worn and might have benefited from a little discrete stabilisation but the work done appears be both far too ambitious and badly executed. I fear we may have a problem on our hands with this. Are you able to attend the virtual BMC meeting? Your views as a local who has seen the work will carry much more weight than some incomer.
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Exactly Will.
I think that in this particular instance it's the extent of the work, the profile of the venue and the fact that presumably the landowner has not been involved that sets alarm bells ringing. I plan to go over to check it out in the next week before the BMC meeting as often things can look worse in photos than reality, although from Matt's post it sounds as though in this case that isn't so.
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Am I right in thinking this is an SSSI, and there's no formal access agreement?
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I don't really want to stick my oar into a situation that I know nothing about, but the terraces do look like something that would give a civil engineer nightmares. Entropy has a habit of exerting its will on things like that.
And +1 to what Bonjoy said.
I think we do need to be taking more proactive steps to sort out issues like this at popular crags, though that's not to say that this is the way to go about it. I don't know whether it has really been worse this year than others, or whether we're just talking about it more, but paths do seem to be completely fucked at the moment. The proposed work to fix the field at Almscliff should have been done years ago. The tracks at Caley seemed particularly fucked up this year. Moughton Nab needs a proper stile putting in to stop the wall falling down. etc etc
The Don't Ask, Don't Tell stance might be the right thing for less popular crags, but for well-trafficked venues we ought to be proactively approaching landowners and offering to fix the issues. The Northumberland lot have a whip round every year to buy the key landowners a nice hamper at Christmas time.
Tbf Mick has been in constant dialogue with the farmer at Almscliff for ages and he has never been receptive to stone going down until now. I agree with the general thrust of your point though.
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I don't really want to stick my oar into a situation that I know nothing about, but the terraces do look like something that would give a civil engineer nightmares. Entropy has a habit of exerting its will on things like that.
And +1 to what Bonjoy said.
I think we do need to be taking more proactive steps to sort out issues like this at popular crags, though that's not to say that this is the way to go about it. I don't know whether it has really been worse this year than others, or whether we're just talking about it more, but paths do seem to be completely fucked at the moment. The proposed work to fix the field at Almscliff should have been done years ago. The tracks at Caley seemed particularly fucked up this year. Moughton Nab needs a proper stile putting in to stop the wall falling down. etc etc
The Don't Ask, Don't Tell stance might be the right thing for less popular crags, but for well-trafficked venues we ought to be proactively approaching landowners and offering to fix the issues. The Northumberland lot have a whip round every year to buy the key landowners a nice hamper at Christmas time.
Tbf Mick has been in constant dialogue with the farmer at Almscliff for ages and he has never been receptive to stone going down until now. I agree with the general thrust of your point though.
Fair enough. Makes you wonder why the farmer wasn't keen on the help though. His field is slowly being washed away into the Wharfe.
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Fair enough. Makes you wonder why the farmer wasn't keen on the help though. His field is slowly being washed away into the Wharfe.
God only knows! I suppose the knowledge that the mud has been tamed might make it even more popular to the public, if such a thing is possible, which he probably wants to avoid.
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This looks mental. Has the guy who fucked up Aldery moved down south?!
for well-trafficked venues we ought to be proactively approaching landowners and offering to fix the issues. The Northumberland lot have a whip round every year to buy the key landowners a nice hamper at Christmas time.
:agree: The way that access is handled in Northumberland is a great template for the rest of the country. I saw on the Facebook group where a new gated bridge had been installed and the guy posting had spoken to one of the fellas who said “we put an extra wide gate in so you could all fit your pads through”. :hug:
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It looks poorly done and beyond a bit of discrete 'under the radar TLC'. I despair at the noise on ukc though (and I'm aware of the irony of posting that here). It's perfect fodder for an owner/interested party to limit access.
Seems like some climbers prefer the sound of their own voice to actually maintaining access.
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Ok. Home and coffee in hand.
First. Me.
I am all for improvement at crags, path management and construction etc. My attitude to bolting, I keep to myself, because many trad climbers would lynch me if I voiced it. I wouldn’t dream of imposing it on others, though.
I own the local wall, the last thing I want to is upset anybody in the local community and had to think hard, walking home, whether to get involved or not.
I cannot condone what has been done and staying silent would be tantamount to doing exactly that.
I went today, even after viewing the photos and video, expecting a few small terraces, extending a few feet from the cliff and to see sensible work that looked bad because it was raw.
The work is immediately obvious, less than three feet from the “no access” access point. If you know the spot, that railing is still 10’ from the first step. It is not visible from the other side of the wire. So a dog walker reporting it is unlikely. However, whilst there, a dog walker came down past me a went off towards Redgate. So it’s going to be noticed, eventually, by someone who will make a fuss. The work, as you can see, extends 20’-25’ from the rock face. None of the trees cut, were cut to improve route access, they have been cut as building material. Note the distance from cliff to stump in the first shot:
(https://i.ibb.co/Rz9sCqz/21-E36-F0-C-CAA3-476-C-9874-D9-D244370627.jpg)
The work extends all the way to the existing path at the top.
Terraces are excessively high in places. Bare with me, this is difficult to explain in the forum format.
The first “big” terrace is not very stable (work lower down is better than that higher up. At a guess, they started at the bottom). For reference the metal stake is ~4’ (or, just below my nipple and I’m 6’1”).
(https://i.ibb.co/wgbmYd6/C5-EDB305-B6-C8-4448-ADD5-717-C3-A082631.jpg)
It’s at least 5’ high, and thats sat on topsoil. This end, is still quite dry. Heavier rain and time will wash it out.
The biggest terrace is 8’ minimum (though you could call the lower level a couple of feet right of where I put the stake, and then call it 10’)
(https://i.ibb.co/sFJMDkM/7-D065-E78-AD75-4-C19-92-D0-FA49-CAB78-ADB.jpg)
This one is definitely unstable.
Mid height is a topsoil layer:
(https://i.ibb.co/QC6fXxs/D185-C8-B8-E337-4-B37-8-CF7-B4-EEC371-D2-F1.jpg)
At the moment, it’s dry, close in to the face, but already under cut. If you move out along the terrace (it extends 20-25’ from the face), it is already moving and some of the wood used to retain the shelf is coming out on the lower tier of this set:
(https://i.ibb.co/RQ2QZWH/5261-EE41-02-C5-489-C-86-A9-AB47129-FDB0-A.jpg)
Many of the logs use to retain the terraces are unsecured, just laid across the slope, unstaked (staking will be hard).
There’s a lot of large boulders, propped up with logs. Some very large, >200kg at a guess:
(https://i.ibb.co/mN0Sx04/06-B240-E9-37-DE-4-EC2-BC93-0484-EA9-B80-FF.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9ydWGnp/DD70-BC47-6-D33-4-BA2-800-B-4-E724004-AFFE.jpg)
Not finished, but posting so I don’t have to start again if something goes wrong...
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To be clear, some of the work is pretty good and if this has all been done by one person, bloody effort! Several tons of earth and rock moved and a good ton of wood.
Tree cutting.
I counted about 20 tree stumps (not cut branches), a couple I couldn’t really age, some had had mud rubbed into them in a way that seemed as if they’d tried to hide the cut. Most were fresh and obvious. The largest was in fact around 30cm in diameter. It is both sides of the gully, not just Empire.
The amount of “stacked” cut wood is upsetting. It’s a lot, I hope the photos convey it.
(https://i.ibb.co/KXNMrrn/FEA2-A014-1-EF5-4-E91-902-E-039-E9-CFE0864.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/C7YmfjT/97-BC94-CA-267-A-46-D0-BDD4-FC8-F04-D60-E44.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/hgXNvj5/14103-D09-4-F3-E-4-B38-A559-D8-D9-BFCD8805.jpg)
Hard to show how far this extends down the slope from the obvious.
On the other side:
(https://i.ibb.co/TcbK8sc/B7-CDD27-F-32-DA-4555-B5-C7-0-A23246-BD4-D8.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/TcbK8sc/B7-CDD27-F-32-DA-4555-B5-C7-0-A23246-BD4-D8.jpg)
Stumps, some of, anyway:
(https://i.ibb.co/TcbK8sc/B7-CDD27-F-32-DA-4555-B5-C7-0-A23246-BD4-D8.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tC9N4N0/BFD8022-E-43-FD-4-A56-B334-977-A10184332.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/41LF1Yy/7-D50-B9-C5-3-D5-A-45-F0-9657-11-BD1-DCAB746.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/25nFxkF/07-D0-A1-C9-627-B-44-E5-9-B88-0-EFB47-B90687.jpg)
You get the idea.
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Looking back up.
(https://i.ibb.co/SPv3nS6/D5475-AE5-0-B3-C-4340-9288-24287-EDB6630.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/NYWNrTT/2-CCFA1-AD-0238-4-F5-F-833-E-0-CD0-F343-E620.jpg)
And then, there’s this stuff:
(https://i.ibb.co/jWMqVr9/02-B01-BB5-AE8-D-4054-9-DB7-5-E7-F2-EFB7-AE7.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BBSSmJ9/D1-EFBA4-B-EDB5-4-B43-BFB6-0253553781-A4.jpg)
Some things are just topsoil, no support:
(https://i.ibb.co/k68R4P7/531-CAFDE-B5-FE-4-F8-D-8-FF2-38541-DD3-F575.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/g69bbJ2/79-FA8626-47-DB-42-F3-ABB3-9984-AE1-D1080.jpg)
That’s probably enough to convey to overall feel of it.
I am not a Civil Engineer, I’m a Marine Engineer (quite uncivil, too). However, some of this will need to be made safe. I realise it is unfinished.
It is just too much. If (and it’s a fairly big if) it comes to TCCT’s attention, it is almost certainly going to become an issue. It looks like it might take more than one growing season to green in and a bad bout of heavy rain is going to washout a lot of whats been done, higher up.
Not sure about the large exposed boulders, I’m trying to wrack my brains to remember if they were already exposed. Bloody slippery though.
Also and quite important.
Pretty sure the anecdotal pair of “slightly built” belayer and “heavy” climber (judgmental wanker) described in the UKC thread, was myself pinging unexpectedly off the first crux on Empire and a certain Toby D of this parish, who came up to meet me. I blame the plate in Toby’s head for my bruised Coccyx. However he did not end up above me and this was a situation we were both accustomed to by this point. It’s just a really soft catch...
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Thanks for the pics Matt. It's a shame the work appears to be unstable, clearly a lot of well intentioned effort has gone in.
The couple of big boulders at the bottom were definitely already exposed, not sure about the ones higher up.
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Thanks for the pics Matt. It's a shame the work appears to be unstable, clearly a lot of well intentioned effort has gone in.
The couple of big boulders at the bottom were definitely already exposed, not sure about the ones higher up.
Yes. It’s very difficult to imagine/remember what it looked like before.
But it was overgrown enough that you couldn’t alway tell how busy it was from the approach path.
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Wow!
Well that is comprehensive thanks matt much appreciated!
Having never been in winter could you always see down the wall from the top fence? It really does look like a hell of a lot has been cut down before you even go onto the ground works. I always thought how hidden away it was from the top entrance it seems to be far from that now.
There is clearly a lot of work gone into this its such a shame that effort wasn't put to use somewhere and on something far more appropriate.
How do you move forward? It obviously needs to stop and then hope nobody important notices it? I think if the relevant people are approached there could well be problems?
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https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/dbpage.php?id=332974
Before image.
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Looking back up.
(https://i.ibb.co/SPv3nS6/D5475-AE5-0-B3-C-4340-9288-24287-EDB6630.jpg)
Comparing that against Bonjoy's linked image, it doesn't actually look too bad. Obviously it might look quite different in person. The slope was obviously in a bit of a state anyway. From my distant armchair it might fall into the "good thing to try and do, but do a less extensive job and do it better" box.
Edit: except it's in a SSSI. Oops.
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Looking back up.
(https://i.ibb.co/SPv3nS6/D5475-AE5-0-B3-C-4340-9288-24287-EDB6630.jpg)
Comparing that against Bonjoy's linked image, it doesn't actually look too bad. Obviously it might look quite different in person. The slope was obviously in a bit of a state anyway. From my distant armchair it might fall into the "good thing to try and do, but do a less extensive job and do it better" box.
Edit: except it's in a SSSI. Oops.
You’re not wrong.
Or not far off.
If I’d found terraces built into the existing slope, say extending 5’-10’ from the face (or, as far as the overhang, if you will), and approx. 1’-2’ high; I’d have been well impressed. It could have been done without such extensive works.
They’ve cut trees from around 20’ from the face. I’ve fallen off there quite a bit, don’t recall ever hitting a tree or even thinking I might. Even so, trimming back branches, is a different ball game to cutting down the tree.
I think it could be salvaged (or, perhaps, finished. It’s hard to tell if this is how it was meant to be left, or if it’s only half done).
The cleared area is 3 or 4 times what was there before and more than that in places. I might go back with a tape and plot to obviously cut brush/under growth and compare it to where the growth has been cut to.
Like I said above. I was shocked. I went in thinking there was some “old fuddy” overreacting going on.
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Thanks Matt for all the detail. Will add support to the idea that it is now ‘noticeable’. I walked down to Redgate on Boxing Day with a couple of friends and our young children. It was the first time I’ve been down there with non-climbers and it’s been clear that this is a spot for climbing.
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In case anyone wondered. The boulder in the 6th photo of the first set is indeed held up by a log and a spoon!
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In case anyone wondered. The boulder in the 6th photo of the first set is indeed held up by a log and a spoon!
Yeah.
I’m trying not to over egg the possibility of someone getting hurt, but it might happen.
The liability issue is messy.
Edit:
I did not feel the spoon was integral to the system, however I was disinclined to remove it and test the hypothesis.
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BTW I haven't been there myself..I saw a close up of the spoon from another locals photo.
I'm saving my annual visit for better times although I'm more inclined to go to LQP for some DWS action if I'm down that way.
From what I know the 'work' has been carried out by one person and that he believes he is acting in good faith. Although a part of me can't help thinking it has been done partly to gain approval or appreciation to help feed into his YouTube channel.. But backfired a little. :shrug:
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How did this go?
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Ah , well...
93 attendees, or there abouts.
Turns out somebody had already reported the “work” to TCCT and so it’s dropped very much into Rob’s lap and is really more of a national issue now.
So, discussion of the “quality” was suppressed, for obvious reasons and we’re into the “working group” liaising with National Council and (hopefully) Jamie P joining the TCCT rep to review the “works” and their impact.
Thus far, I don’t think Natural England are involved. I suspect that depends on the TCCT rep’s reaction when he sees it. Jamie is hoping to explain the intent of the work and it’s benefits, rather than let them walk into something that really wouldn’t make sense to a non-climber.
I wasn’t going to post, I don’t want to step on toes.
I think the atmosphere of the meeting was largely against the works, if not overwhelmingly so. There were some quite angry participants and a few were broadly supportive of what’s been done. Not so easy to read the room on Zoom, so that’s largely based on the chat etc.
However (and I think for the best) no motion to condemn the action was undertaken.
Opinion:
I think making a positive effort to move forward, with the landowner and stressing our willingness and enthusiasm to work with them to a solution they are satisfied with, is the only appropriate course. To that end, we must wait for their response before any action is taken.
I don’t think avoiding climbing is necessary, yet, but perhaps some common sense, if you find it already busy, might be in order, whilst the situation remains unresolved...
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Thanks Matt. Your summary is much more helpful and dispassionate than the one that was posted on UKC which had the thread locked straight away :lol:
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Thanks Matt. Your summary is much more helpful and dispassionate than the one that was posted on UKC which had the thread locked straight away :lol:
I hate that channel, avoid it.
I just went to look and it’s completely gone. I assume a bit like locked and logged here, but harder to find? Or completely deleted? As a search returns “no such topic”.
Must have been quite a rant?
The angriest participant, was very pro the work and seemed to think the landowner/Natural England et al could simply be told to F off. Again, very hard to get a true read, given the forum type.
One thing about Zoom meetings, is that you come to realise how much business is actually done during coffee and snack breaks, between the segments of the “real” meeting and that without that informal interaction, compromise and consensus is much harder to achieve.
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Thank for reporting Matt. Hope the meeting was productive, it’s hard to do the ‘nemawashi’ currently as you say.
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A big positive out of it that I can see is that there is obviously now a motivated group who really care about being crag custodians. Another bolting workshop down there would be a great idea as the last one resulted in all of Torbryan being rebolted by one very psyched individual. Anstey's has the same old staples, on Empire wall at least, and would benefit from the same treatment. Obviously, this is down the way when the dust has settled on this particular turbo-Tommy Walsh incident.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
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A big positive out of it that I can see is that there is obviously now a motivated group who really care about being crag custodians. Another bolting workshop down there would be a great idea as the last one resulted in all of Torbryan being rebolted by one very psyched individual. Anstey's has the same old staples, on Empire wall at least, and would benefit from the same treatment. Obviously, this is down the way when the dust has settled on this particular turbo-Tommy Walsh incident.
I started to put out feelers in that direction.
I realised the Bunker would be a good place to base that/store tools/raise money etc (open 7 days etc) and, assuming I actually get to start my new job in April, I’m going to be at a loose end for a month, every other month. I already have a shit load of tools, PPE and rope etc and I live ten minutes walk from the crag.
Now my kids are older and more independent, I’m finding myself with unaccustomed free time and some fresh air, stunning views and macho power tools, might be a rewarding way to fill an hour or two.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
There was a pro Ecologist at the meeting, familiar with some of the legal implications of such actions in such a place. I think, given the honest intentions of the person who started the work and their genuine desire to benefit the community, they deserve as much support, even protection as that community can muster. I think lessons have been learned.
It’s not as if this was intentional vandalism, it was well meaning. I think people need to make that distinction and understand the degree of generosity to the community, that was intended and, frankly, the Herculean effort made by that individual. A misguided attempt, is not the same a malign endeavour.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
I think Alan said that he was removing the threads in case they were seen by the land owners.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
That actually seemed quite anodyne.
Under the circumstances, it’s going to be pretty difficult discussing anything, if the threads are shut down. However, the point made at the meeting is the crucial issue.
The landowner is aware of the issue, has been in contact with Rob D and “we” really cannot do anything until we know the landowner’s reaction and they have (generously) not made any public reaction and agreed to inspect the site before doing so. That’s actually quite an amazing response. However, it seems obvious that public discussion of the merits or quality or whatnot of the work, might influence the landowner.
Just as I’m slightly concerned that, if on the day of the inspection, there’s fifty climbers lounging about the crag dropping crisp packets and crapping in bushes (exaggerated for effect. They probably won’t be lounging, would have picked up the packet, buried the crap etc, but that’s possibly not what the impression might be, to a landowner’s rep, who doesn’t climb and probably had no idea how popular this out of sight old quarry).
I think some mention from those who had visited, was required, but discretion was important.
The debate about what needs to be done, or not, is for later. I viewed the meeting as an opportunity to explain what had happened and how the BMC intend to react, initially and to put everybody on notice of seriousness of the issue.
Again, once the landowner has made their position clear, then we can, with them, work out a way forward.
Do I have to paint a picture of the “worst case scenario” here?
None of us own it, but we all value it.
Emotional reactions, particularly anger, will not help and might hinder progress.
What’s done is done.
Fix the problem, not the blame.
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I went to the meeting the other night as well and have been down to the crag to see the extent of the work; I think that the way the community has rallied and (generally) looked to try and find a way to move forward with this has been encouraging. It was frustrating that it was not clear at the end of the meeting as to how to express an interest in getting involved in a working party should one be set up. I for one, rarely check the BMC website but would be very happy to be involved in any attempts to 'make good' the work that has been carried out. I do think a landscape engineer should be brought in to advise though as the work done has been so substantial that I wouldn't feel confident that a group of well intentioned yet (presumably) largely ignorant climbers would make the situation any better left to their own devices...
I wonder whether there should also be some consideration made for the person who has done this work. Whilst I have many issues with what has been done, as Matt has said, I am sure he was acting with good intentions, has done a phenomenal amount of of work and must now feel (if he's kept up with developments) that he has been somewhat vilified for what he has done.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
The thread is still there:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/ansteys_bmc_area_meeting-730194?v=1#x9388406
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
Are you confusing with Pete saunders?
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I’m not a Civil Engineer, I’m a Marine Engineer, but I’ve designed Marinas and Dock/Shipyard installations. I have working knowledge of the basics.
However, given the issues, Tom is probably right. However, a pro would make it expensive, unless we can find a volunteer from within the community.
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I trained as a civil engineer but certainly wouldn't feel confident in offering advice. I am sure we can find someone who climbs who fits the bill.
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Could get a topo survey and a design done for £2-3k. Not sure what the local BMC finances are like but I’m sure head office could stump this up to hopefully maintain access to a significant crag. I think getting a pro to do it will give it more credence with the land owners and also back up any design with PL and PI insurance.
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Are you confusing with Pete saunders?
Nope
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cornwall-West-Penwith-Climbers-guides/dp/0901601284
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Sorry my mistake, thought they were referring to writer of South Devon guide
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Your post was a bit confusing though Shark, 'cos you said:
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
The local guidebook writer (i.e. for the current guide that covers Ansteys) is Pete Saunders. Pete O'Sullivan might have written a guide to West Penwith, but that was three decades ago and barely counts as local.
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Could get a topo survey and a design done for £2-3k. Not sure what the local BMC finances are like but I’m sure head office could stump this up to hopefully maintain access to a significant crag. I think getting a pro to do it will give it more credence with the land owners and also back up any design with PL and PI insurance.
Sounds like a good idea in my (uninformed) opinion. I would rather my subs go towards this than funding people going to the Olympics or on trips to the Himalayas.
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Your post was a bit confusing though Shark, 'cos you said:
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
The local guidebook writer (i.e. for the current guide that covers Ansteys) is Pete Saunders. Pete O'Sullivan might have written a guide to West Penwith, but that was three decades ago and barely counts as local.
In defence of Shark, the 1985 South Devon and Dartmoor guide was co-written by Pat Littlejohn and Pete O'Sullivan.
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Your post was a bit confusing though Shark, 'cos you said:
The comment that “ Surely this level of environmental vandalism is a criminal offence” was from a Pete O’ Sullivan who presumably is the local guidebook writer and new router of the same name
The local guidebook writer (i.e. for the current guide that covers Ansteys) is Pete Saunders. Pete O'Sullivan might have written a guide to West Penwith, but that was three decades ago and barely counts as local.
In defence of Shark, the 1985 South Devon and Dartmoor guide was co-written by Pat Littlejohn and Pete O'Sullivan.
Still have that one.
But, that one from ‘95 with the spoof “Lord of the Rings” style maps etc, is the classic (third edition, Nick White).
Edit:
Oh.
Just pulled it off the bookshelf in a fit of nostalgia.
Pretty obvious from the Empire wall topo, it was very open ( low scrub only) when the topo photo was taken.
I don’t remember at all, but I know I climbed there from about 1990 onward. I can only picture it with the trees.
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(https://i.ibb.co/2syD2mr/7-EF94-CDF-B5-D2-425-D-8934-87-A0139292-CF.jpg)
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Could get a topo survey and a design done for £2-3k. Not sure what the local BMC finances are like but I’m sure head office could stump this up to hopefully maintain access to a significant crag. I think getting a pro to do it will give it more credence with the land owners and also back up any design with PL and PI insurance.
I work for a company that do geoengineering (I'm not in that department I should add).That cost looks a bit light to me. More importantly though any 'professional ' solution is likely to be very costly to install, and presumably would only be insurable if installed by said professionals.
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I work for a company that do geoengineering (I'm not in that department I should add).That cost looks a bit light to me. More importantly though any 'professional ' solution is likely to be very costly to install, and presumably would only be insurable if installed by said professionals.
We aren’t widening the A1, we aren’t talking about shotcrete, sheet piling or soil nailing. The area isn’t carrying any load. It just needs some safe slope design for the loose stuff and maybe some gabions full of the loose blocks to support the terraces (rather than a spoon and some branches!).
The insurance would be for the design, so as long as the works are carried out to the design then that insurance is valid. I agree though that as it’s going to be works on third party property, you’d want someone suitably qualified to guide any volunteer efforts. IMO this wouldn’t need to be more than a general groundworks company though.
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In defence of Shark, the 1985 South Devon and Dartmoor guide was co-written by Pat Littlejohn and Pete O'Sullivan.
OK fair enough. I was only 3 yrs old in ‘85 though so let me off!
Have just looked at my copy of the Nick White guide (quirkiest guide ever?) and it was surprisingly open below Empire Wall.
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Must have been quite a rant?
I saw it yesterday, after locking but before removal. I presume the comment that got it locked was someone suggesting the work should be considered a criminal offence. The only other comment post meeting was a bit of a moan about democratic decision making, but seemed fairly innocuous (to me at least).
There was a pro Ecologist at the meeting, familiar with some of the legal implications of such actions in such a place. I think, given the honest intentions of the person who started the work and their genuine desire to benefit the community, they deserve as much support, even protection as that community can muster. I think lessons have been learned.
It’s not as if this was intentional vandalism, it was well meaning. I think people need to make that distinction and understand the degree of generosity to the community, that was intended and, frankly, the Herculean effort made by that individual. A misguided attempt, is not the same a malign endeavour.
It is my understanding that R was acting totally in good faith and with entirely positive intentions to create something to improve the crag. Initially he was fiercely defending his actions. However, I am also aware that he was going to attend the meeting and had a statement prepared. He has expressed regret, apologised and said he will not do any more to the crag.
Given the sharp attitude of some individuals in attendance it is probably for the best that he didn't attend. Consideration should be given to his wellbeing and mental health in all of this. People firing shots no little of his story or circumstances and I'm sure he would never have started if he could foresee the shitstorm it would create.
I am hopeful that a positive outcome can be achieved, that Jamie P will be able to smooth things with the landowners. There is a group of climbers down here that are ready and willing to be proactive. It is also a positive that the attention and resource of the BMC is being drawn to the SW.
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Ignorance is a mitigating circumstance, not an excuse.
Being ready and willing got us into this mess; skilled and capable might be better.
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Tried to cut and paste the minutes but it didn’t work well.
Link is here: https://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=3470
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Tried to cut and paste the minutes but it didn’t work well.
I think one can boil them down to, they had a meeting and are going to set up a working group.