UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: El Mocho on June 26, 2012, 09:21:01 pm
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I know there has been bits and bobs on here about this already but there is a big public consultation coming up and a group of local residents are trying to get a TRO in place on the Long Causeway (just had a letter through daughters school)
There are petitions to sign in Hathersage and Bamford post offices or you can fill in an evidence form/write a letter for the public consultation. The action group are looking for evidence of:
Accidents or near accidents
Injuries due to the condition of the track
Aggressive or dangerous driving
Abusive language or aggressive behaviour by off-roaders
Danger on nearby roads caused by off-roaders on their way to or from these routes
Seeing off-roaders using nearby bridleways or paths where there is no legal right of access
Noise disturbance
Night time disturbance
Large convoys of vehicles (more than 6 trail bikes, more than 4 4x4s)
Also, if anyone has any photographs for comparison (ie the causeway 10 yrs ago vs now) (JB?) they would be appreciated.
PM me for evidence forms (or just write a letter and email it to me)
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Nice one for flagging this up.
We've tried to track down old pictures of the causeway before, but no one seems to have any. Its a real shame, and illustrates perfectly the problem of shifting baselines; you don't know what you've lost.
I've seen six or seven trail bikes ride through the Plantation before, so I'll definitely be making a report. Having said that the 4x4s have a very strong lobby and are well used to dealing with NIMBY style objections. Wiser men than I are suggesting pushing for a complete ban may be counter productive, and we would be better concentrating on 4x4s now and leaving trail bikes for the future.
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I'm sure i've seen old causeway shots on flickr/internet, there must be plenty out there.
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The action group are looking for evidence of:
Large convoys of vehicles (more than 6 trail bikes, more than 4 4x4s)
Saw this on Flickr. Perhaps worth contacting the photographer?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hamishfenton/3369320720/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hamishfenton/3369320720/#)
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I'm sure i've seen old causeway shots on flickr/internet, there must be plenty out there.
Backed up queue (embedding not permitted) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hamishfenton/3369320720/#) <- Same as r-mans
Some dickhead who thought it would be clever to leave the road (embedding not permitted) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59471889@N02/5441842225/#)
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I do believe the pressure on the 4X4 users is very slowly being cranked up throughout the park. I have completed a couple of questionnaires over on Rushup edge whilst out running, the main theme of these was 4x4's and what my attitude to them was and my feelings towards their continued use of the park. There are various tracks closed to their use and some voluntary one way and reduced use restrictions in place in many areas to try and reduce damage. However, they have a legal right to be there and are very good at intelligently fighting their corner.
I think they have no place in the beautiful and peaceful countryside and should be banned, end of.
Will pm you for a form.
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The Peak District National Park Authority is to consult the general public over the possibility of permanently excluding recreational motor vehicles and trail-bikes from two green lanes
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/public-to-be-consulted-on-motorised-traffic-ban-for-two-green-lanes (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/public-to-be-consulted-on-motorised-traffic-ban-for-two-green-lanes)
Smaart
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Update here http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/?a=81006 (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/?a=81006)
You can express your support for the TRO by writing to long.causeway@peakdistrict.gov.uk
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Ah, now this is the thread I was also thinking of.
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Consultation has officially been opened today - be good to bombard them with supportive mails :)
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According to the Sheffield Star Off roaders are planning a go slow on roads around the peak park on Oct 21st, Nov 25th and Dec 30th.
That should make members of the public more inclined to see it from their point of view then shouldn't it ?
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That will make zero difference then as they're not meant to be going fast anyway!
From here (http://www.glass-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=129)
Ø Travel at a quiet and unobtrusive pace and as slowly as practicable; we recommend a maximum of 12 mph when in a 4x4 and on an Unsurfaced Right of Way (URoW). Ensure your vehicle is fully road-legal, URoW are subject to the same laws as surfaced roads.
Ø When travelling in groups keep to a small number, four or less in sensitive areas, in other areas up to six vehicles may be acceptable.
Just came across Peak District Green Lanes Association (http://pdgla.org.uk/) who "believe that green lanes should be for walkers, cyclists, horse riders and carriage drivers.".
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Isn't their "cunning plan" that they will drive on the roads at a slow pace ?
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No idea, don't read The Star regularly and could only find this article (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/views-sought-about-4x4-and-bikers-ban-1-4946198) about the consultation which doesn't mention a go-slow.
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I'll find out from my mole at The Star (or I could even buy a copy !) and post
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No idea, don't read The Star regularly and could only find this article (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/views-sought-about-4x4-and-bikers-ban-1-4946198) about the consultation which doesn't mention a go-slow.
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/news-in-brief-motorcycle-protest-at-peak-closures-1-4961992 (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/news-in-brief-motorcycle-protest-at-peak-closures-1-4961992)
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They won't be able to go slow due to all the Sunday drivers driving even slower. It'll just be a normal day in the peak.
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Caught the last half of this doc about it...quite good
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b016psp6 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b016psp6)
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Little Reminder:
long.causeway@peakdistrict.gov.uk
Today is the last day you can have your say
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Little Reminder:
long.causeway@peakdistrict.gov.uk
Today is the last day you can have your say
:agree: Got round to mailing them yesterday, lets see what happens. :popcorn:
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Meh, its a road, we will continue to use it for as long as it is classified as such.. we pay our taxes to keep it maintained, and clearly in some areas it doesnt get maintained, road users fault? nah..
The guidelines that we have written to try and extend the life of the road and increase pedestrian safety are just that, guidelines.. things we have tried to impliment to keep you nutjobs safe, and happy... talk about a humanitarian fail haha...
if the funds dont exist to maintain the road, then close the road, simple as that... we would rather that than listen to the constant drone of you lot whining how we show no respect to other road users, and how the road would be in such great condition if it wasnt being used by vehicles..
this whole forum honestly just feels like a troll sometimes... enjoy the floods and the winter, hope your gran doesnt need her shopping driven out to her.
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Meh, its a road, we will continue to use it for as long as it is classified as such.. we pay our taxes to keep it maintained, and clearly in some areas it doesnt get maintained, road users fault? nah..
The point is that many don't think it should be classified as a road, not sure what it is about that which you fail to grasp?
Anyway, this ruling seems rather petty (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/disappointment-at-chapel-gate-court-ruling) but at least the other objections raised were rejected by the judge, bodes well, but wording of anything else will have to be very carefully.
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if the funds dont exist to maintain the road, then close the road, simple as that...
Well, if your fellow 4x4ists are ok with that then it sounds like the best solution for everyone, declassify it from being a road, no more angst.
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8489/8249557120_8edc950b40_z.jpg)
this photo is from 2006. don't know if it's any use. it's from a phone so small.
tbh i haven't been up there recently is it different to this?
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hey slack.. I am not failing to grasp anything about the road usage... I would even go as far to say that I appreciate, and agree that it should be closed in many respects.
Also, regarding the "ruling", I agree that if the order was Valid, its pure bollocks to overturn it based on grounds of wording.. it seems totally stupid to me, and does nothing more than make the offroad community look even more like bullies than they could have ever done before.
It remains to be seen what effects the remaining users have had on the trail... However, if things have remained the same, and not been seen to get any worse than they are, to me, that is at least a move in the right direction.
It indicates as I said before, that it needs to be maintained, or closed.
We have tried our best to impliment change outside these proceedings on other trails. It has been suggested to restrict access on bank holidays, weekends etc to allow other users less restricted access (read jumping out of the way of traffic), with regard to erosion and impact on wildlife we have even tried to push through usage with a permit system - to limit the amount of vehicles using the road per day, and completely restrict it during periods where wildlife are especially susceptible (during mating seasons, extreme weather etc..). All of which have been point blank rejected through either cost, available resources, or that it has just been deemed not necessary.
Again, taxes are paid to provide these sort of services.. and to be honest, many offroad users feel they are taking the bad rap for an inept system run by people that seem unable to fullfill their employment descripton. It is a dangerous thing to start attributing blame without all the facts on the table. And it really is time to start asking who is causing the problem.
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Well you lot are, clearly. This attitude that you are legally permitted to drive down it, therefore it should be maintained for you I find ridiculous. I once drove a Peugeot 205 over Houndkirk, before the track was trashed by 4x4s. I didn't feel a need to do it again because it felt completely wrong even if entirely legal. Much less whinge on that as a taxpayer it should be maintained in such a condition for my, or anyone else's, small hatchback. And I'm sure if it was you wouldn't be very happy as you'd lose the 'challenge'. Unfortunately said 'challenge' only exists when you are driving a track in poor state of repair, hence you have a problem.
The reason you have a right to drive on these roads/ tracks is a historical quirk and was clearly never intended for large numbers of recreational users coming from near and far. The track should be closed to wheeled traffic other than horse-drawn, then you'd have something close to the original situation.
There have been several attempts to introduce controls, voluntary or otherwise, to the causeway - one way, limiting groups etc. All have been roundly ignored by the 4x4 community. Whilst bans on paths to reduce erosion, and on climbs to protect birds, and have been hugely successful and almost 100% respected. Then when the track is finally closed every walker and climber on the edge gets to watch 4x4s cutting across open SSSI moorland to get to the track. This is why everyone thinks you are a bunch of cunts, and why you will lose access.
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you are legally permitted to drive down it, therefore it should be maintained for you I find ridiculous.
we are all entitled to have an opinion on who the cunts are...
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So in your ideal world these would all be blacktop would they?
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I've never been able to understand why 4x4 drivers feel the need to use these 'roads', and yes historically it has been a road since Roman times, in areas of great natural beauty ....... It can't be because they enjoy the scenery, if they did they'd park their vehicles at the bottom of a track and walk like the rest of us ......... It can't be because they appreciate seeing wildlife in it's natural habitat because if they did they wouldn't drive their vehicles so close to SSSI's and thus destroying what they'd come to view ........ It can't be the challenge as there so many disused quarries which could be sculpted to provide them with far more thrills ........ Could it be they just enjoy winding the rest of us up ? ......... That their pleasure comes at being sworn at by some walker they've just forced to jump out of the way ? ......... Their arguments sadly remind me of those who 'avoid' paying tax by saying that they're doing nothing illegal and can't see the immorality of their actions and the impact that they have on others .........
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for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...
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Where is the physical & mental challenge in sitting behind a wheel?
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questioning the mental challenge in choosing a line offroad, is just like saying all we do is follow the bolts when climbing....
physically it can be as tiring as you want.. especially if you are a codriver.
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I think there is a world of difference involved when you are using a machine with a motor v's using judgement and tenacity to not kill yourself.
They're chalk and cheese really so there's little point in trying to draw comparisons (and the climbing around Stanage is traditional not bolted).
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Questions about the aesthetics or the challenge of 4x4 s are totally irrelevent, as as discussions about the legality. What is relevent is the fact that driving a landrover along stanage causeway or houndkirk is utterly morally indefensible, and to anyone with half a braincell its also a totally unsustainable activity even in the short term. You are not performing heroic deeds here fetching an old lady her shopping in the snow, or rescuing a wounded soldier behind enemy lines, or on the trail of ivory poachers in the african savannah. You are ruining a National Park, and a regional icon and beauty spot (infact fuck it, stanage has international significance). Would you drive a 4x4 across stonehenge or machu picchu, even if you had a map stating there was a BOAT there? I would hope you wouldn't, so don't do it at stanage either.
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for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...
Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question ........ I think the crux of what I'm what I'm trying to understand is why practice your hobby in an area where it upsets just about everybody, there seems to be a perverseness in your nature that I really can't get my head around ........ And it must be quite challenging to drive up Long Causeway these days, it's completely unrecognisable from the day I first walked up it 43 years ago , in a few years time parts of the track/'road will have turned into a scree slope.......... Do you ever feel a slight twinge of guilt knowing that through your need for a 'mental and physical challenge' your affecting whole swathes of people, the residents of Great Longstone spring to mind, or do you let the whole 'it's always been a road therefore we have the right to drive up it' argument, that appears to be your sole justification, run through your mind as you trundle your Range Rover over another protest ? ........... Surely rather wasting your time fighting what is going to be a long drawn out battle, wouldn't you be better off using your resources to find and develop suitable locations in places where you wouldn't be constantly harangued by 'nutjobs ? ......... See, there's a mental challenge for you ? ........
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for the same reason that we dont use the stairs, and instead bolt/chalk up the routes... duh...
Though in terms of the damage left after you've passed through, it's more akin to pegging your way up Millstone's classic crack climbs, something that it's come to be accepted that we shouldn't do anymore.
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wow a lot of feedback...
I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.
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How exactly is it poorly maintained ? ........ And if it really is poorly maintained for you to be there why not think of going somewhere else .......... Again, why not consider developing your own venue, you could, with a limited amount of knowhow, even build your replica of the Long Causeway and destroy it at your leisure ......
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wow a lot of feedback...
I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.
Poorly maintained??? You dont see climbers whinging that landing areas are poorly maintained... they go and do something about it as per the plantation a couple of years ago. Mountainbikers the same..... just have a look at what Ride Sheffield are doing about having organised trail repair days. I've heard of walkers volunteering to help rangers with footpath maintenance, but as of yet all the 4x4 community seem to want to do is destroy the trails and then whinge that the local authorities/national parks aren't doing their job. TBH I can't wait for the first BOAT to be closed to motorised vehicles.... I feel it may then open the floodgates and we'll finally get the national parks back to the way they should be!
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I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.
Would you not agree that a 4x4 (much less a convoy of them) has a vastly greater erosive impact than a climber, a cyclist or a walker? Surely your argument is tantamount to me going down the town centre with a skateboard and a few spray cans, grinding up some benches and tagging the place, and then complaining that the city is 'not well enough maintained' for my recreational use?
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wow a lot of feedback...
I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there. I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.
Poorly maintained??? You dont see climbers whinging that landing areas are poorly maintained... they go and do something about it as per the plantation a couple of years ago.
Have you ever tried to go out onto the main road and start filling in holes? REALLY, HAVE YOU? These are Highways, under the control of the Highway Authority, mostly DCC. There are resistant to all approaches for volunteer aid. So get a fkin clue...
How exactly is it poorly maintained ? ........
Ask an engineer that works with roads.. the best you will get out of me I am afraid, is throw on some more topsoil and dig a ditch to drain water away? :wall:
Driving in another venue is of course an option! :smartass:, but, really that would only help improve the situation if you found someone that drove exclusively on the moors...
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The causeway is maintained to the level appropriate to a historic carthorse track (cos that's what it is) bearing in mind the level of horsedrawn traffic its likely to get in the 21st century.
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Sorry Toby, I missed your post and wouldnt want your points to go ignored...
does a car do more damage than a walker... or a biker...?
well you could argue that a walker tends to walk around muddy puddles.. widning the path... or a bike creates a far deeper channel in mud for water to run down?. But, of course a car does more damage, unless we are talking about a 2 ton fat mamma on a bike, or stomping down the trail....
But a car driver also pays road tax, 4x4 drivers normally pay even more than most, and just like any other road with traffic.. That tax money is used to maintain the roads. Unlike a walker, or a bike user who pays squat and still gets nice trails to use.
Dave, LoL.... I would LOVE to see a horse pull something up there.. although I am sure if we were to beat one hard enough like they did in the "good ol days" that we could make it happen!. We could wear our Hipster glasses and enjoy the nostalgia of the moment..
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I have a right to be there, and drive difficult terrain just as much as someone does to climb, or ride.
Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should. See my post immediately above yours for something that for climbers used to be acceptable. Theoretically we could still go out and do it but it's now understood and accepted that hammering pegs into cracks in the rock is something we shouldn't do because of the damage it causes...
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Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should.
Chris, you are right.. and we have tried.. but it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails, but until we have the support of the relivant agencies involved, we are powerless. (I will refer you to earlier comments about closing the roads on public holidays, bank weekends and restricting daily traffic by imposing a permit system)
I will continue to read and try to reply to as many suggestions and comments as possible, but I encourage you all to read earlier comments before asking away.
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Just because you have 'right' do something it doesn't mean it's acceptable or that you should.
Chris, you are right.. and we have tried.. but it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails, but until we have the support of the relivant agencies involved, we are powerless. (I will refer you to earlier comments about closing the roads on public holidays, bank weekends and restricting daily traffic by imposing a permit system)
I will continue to read and try to reply to as many suggestions and comments as possible, but I encourage you all to read earlier comments before asking away.
Interesting Burned......... So you recognise that your activity is somewhat unacceptable and have tried to get your fellow enthusiasts to also recognise this fact ....... Kudos ......... Sadly all you're saying is that those same fellow enthusiasts are ignorant and pig-headed, maybe not all, but enough ......... Even you have to admit that this is a sad indictment of your community .......
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But a car driver also pays road tax, 4x4 drivers normally pay even more than most, and just like any other road with traffic.. That tax money is used to maintain the roads. Unlike a walker, or a bike user who pays squat and still gets nice trails to use.
It's not road tax it's car tax and isn't used to maintain the roads. A quick google suggests 'since 1937 there has been no direct relationship between the tax and government expenditure on public roads.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax#United_Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax#United_Kingdom)
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A lot of what is being said here isn't directly relevant to the campaign to the "Save Stanage Causeway" campaign and is already covered in the much longer Illegal use of Hounkirk Right of Wayby Vehicles (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10540.0.html) thread.
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I dont see myself destroying a national park. I see it being poorly maintained for me to be there.
And it needs to be maintained because its being destroyed by...
Less 'me' more 'we' mate.
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hi guys.. ok lets get through this...
Baron.. I dont want to sound like a dick... but really? a road needing to be maintained because cars use it?? Seems quite reasonable to me, us.. everyone that uses any road?
RU.. are you stating the obvious, or just like finding new ways to re-hash some of the issues already covered?
Moving on...
Sadly, as grumpy said... there are more than a few morons out there willing to have us all painted with the same brush.. We have worked with the Police in Derbyshire in the past with Operation Blackbrook to try and both realize, and begin to eliminate the problem..
http://www.treadlightly-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=2 (http://www.treadlightly-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=2)
The treadlightly crew are a nice bunch, and we have worked together with them to push forward guidelines and try to promote scouring on those not behaving honourably.
I could go on... and tell you about the work with PPCV and all that.. but, it is pointless.. because even as many of you read these words, you will imagine an antisocial, macdonalds eating bear grylls wannabe sitting here writing them, eagerly awaiting my next encounter with someone wearing goretex out on the trail so I can rev my engine, beep my horn and flash my lights to distract from me throwing litter out of the window.
I will finally digress to Metals comments on road tax... or as I should stand corrected, vehicle tax!. You are right of course, I apologise, stand corrected and openly admit that I dont know everything (I actually didnt know this)
Keep the ideas coming /debate going (other than the obvious one)
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Road? Really?
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So getting back to my earlier point which was conveniently ignored, would you drive a 4x4 through the middle of stonehenge if you managed to convince yourself you had a dubious "right" to do it?
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Ok, in your opinion what would constitute proper maintenance of Stanage Causeway if considered, for arguments sake, as a road?
1. Back to original condition and re-surfaced with cobbles?
This is an unsustainable solution for continuing use by motor vehicles, as demonstrated by its current condition, so how about...
2. Re-surfaced in tarmac?
This is inappropriate given its location in a SSSI etc. and would, in providing a surface fit for purpose, ironically render the attraction of driving the causeway redundant for said motor vehicle users.
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Just a thought, but if I drove my vehicle repeatedly, up and down a small road, perhaps someones cul-de-sac, I dont know, for the sake of analogy, lets make it a road of historical and national, if not international importance, Downing street for instance (I know I know, you cant actually drive up downing street), Pall Mall or the royal mile in Edinburgh. All purely for my own enjoyment, but, as a car tax payer, I could, and had the right to, despite it being incredibly annoying and disturbing to all the residents. Lets say I'm driving a Fred dibnah traction engine or a tank with my catagory H licence. All legal like, Every day, back and forth, back and forth, since its my right, under the law, and I enjoy the challenge of it. Every day my vehicle damaged the surface of the road, continually, and progressively, way beyond the normal levels of road use. But hey, thats not my problem, it's just
being poorly maintained for me to be there
. Back and forth, back and forth.
How long would I last before the law got involved and told me I couldn't do it any more. I wonder what laws they'd bring to bear to prevent me from continuing to exercise my right.
Just a thought :shrug:
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Hmm Dave, normally I see your posts as being pretty provocotive, as you have never really had anything positive to contribute, and I understand why.. you have a grudge, it may not be against me personally, but I get it nevertheless..
Stonehenge.. would I drive through it.. Probaly not. But I dont see the moors in the same way. It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt. It probably seems wierd, but you may have just stumbled apon another possible suggestion.. that the lanes are open in rotation? (probably would just lead to overcrowding if only one was open at a time, but there is a seed to be planted)
Baron, thanks for asking some questions.. like I said before.. I am not really the guy to ask about the best way to engineed a robust surface that will drain water and still offer the "hardcore" guys a bit of trail pleasure.. but I could see how large cobbles could work (like the coping stones on a pavement sized "cobbles?), with perhaps some rocky obsticles to keep speed and traffic down?
We have all seen how recent resurfacing with gravel or whatever into a "motorway" has not been popular with many, it does improve wheelchair access, but for mountainbikes, or even walkers it is horribly boring to walk on let alone the landcruiser owners.
Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry? Its never been discussed before. How much could a trail recover in a year or two? Would it lead to overcrowding when its reopened? Is there anything else I can bring short of "shut it down" that could still benifit other users?
I was climbing in Norway this year and I noticed that many of the smaller summer roads over the mountains were "toll" roads. It was just a noticeboard with a postbox attached to it, and it was left to the "good natured norwegians" to leave the right amount in the box.. Would this be another option do you think? to make it a Toll road?
Bowmore helps you think....
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Stonehenge.. would I drive through it.. Probaly not. But I dont see the moors in the same way. It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt.
the only way the "road" regenerates is if its worked on by human hand. left to regenerate by itself it would perhaps stay the same / likely get worse, though at least not to the extent that 4x4s cause.
heres a question anyways, why is stanage seen as being such a fantastic location to drive a truck about on? surely there are far more challenging/enjoyable locations elsewhere. or is it maybe nothing to do with the quality of the drive and instead a bloody minded statement to try and drive up there?
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Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry?
Firstly, from what I've seen so far it would be totally ignored. I do appreciate there is a core of 4x4 users who are actually pretty responsible. However the other end of the spectrum are idiots with no respect for others or the countryside. Unfortunately until you can bring these guys within some kind of control or peer group, such plans don't work. Judging by some of the drivers I've met (quads on Ringinglow bog for instance) you've a mountain to climb. And its not Snowdon.
Secondly, as leeroy has pointed out, these tracks will not 'regenerate'. They are man made and will have to be repaired. If you struggle to understand why the Causeway excites such strong emotions, it may be because you never saw the beautiful piece of workmanship it used to be. A serious problem is that such stone-laying skills simply don't exist any more. There are very few other examples left in the Peak, I guess the others have long been tarmaced or destroyed. Shame.
PS props for actually attempting to have a reasonable debate.
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Can you guys throw me some criticism as to why a rotation system wouldnt work? As in, we close a route for a year or two to recover then open it only in the summer when its dry?
Firstly, from what I've seen so far it would be totally ignored. I do appreciate there is a core of 4x4 users who are actually pretty responsible.
Agreed - the causeway itself being case and point. When it was first 'temporarily' close this year due to erosion, the concrete blocks at the redmires end were dragged out of the way and into ditches by some 4x4's with chains in order that they could carry on as normal. twats
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It may seem wierd, but I do think that the moors are regenerative, and stonehenge isnt.
That is a fairly simplistic view Burned! The Peak District moorlands are largely 'made' of peat, which doesn't regenerate easily, if at all here, due to a range of factors. Once you remove the vegetation and damage the peat it dries out and washes away, removing several millenia of stored carbon and costing the water companies literally millions of pounds a year to remove the discoloration it causes. The same goes for green lanes, once the vegetation is removed you end up with a surface that is easily eroded by the weather meaning that vegetation regrowth, at least of the same stable communities that were there before, is slow.
No need to spell out why man-made tracks don't naturally regenerate ;)
I don't particularly condone it as a landuse, but what's wrong with using a purpose built 4x4 track?
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hi all, thanks for taking the time to reply.
good points have been raised regarding my comments on driving over the moor road compared to stonehenge, and to keep things on track, lets ignore the raw comparison between sites (no disrespect to Dave) and focus purely on the regeneration issue?
I am sure that the last 15 months that the TRO has been in place will really put down on paper the level of work that needs to be done, the causeway will most likely not show any improvement, most likely the opposite given the damage that has been done already and continued erosion from the weather/remaining users - and that some sort of intervention is needed, both in the case that it should continue to be used as a vehicular highway, or that it should be closed and used only as a bike trail/footpath to combat future degridation.
I have already put the feelers out this morning with regard to new ways of funding in both cases, and how the project would be best served. Toll system, or Paying for a permit, in the same way that a fishing permit is issued?
I have also contacted a few magazines and Landrover stockists to see what level of interest there is to push forward a campaign similar to neighbourhood watch, and promote awareness among the 4x4 community that redneck behaviour is a real problem, and until they step up and do something about themselves, they are as much a part of the problem as the people in their cars - it remains to be seen how enthusiastic the businesses are getting involved in essentially cruicifying some of their customers, but I did remind them that they have a moral obligation to do so.
Snoops, I have also put the word out there regarding the redneck behaviour with the concrete blocks. I have noticed it is already spreading through the LR forums and on Facebook. There is little more that I can do now, but what I am hoping to do is for people to start openly criticizing bad behaviour by others out on the trails.
I think the main fear other than being assaulted of course is that openly posting bad behaviour will be used against the group as a whole in the future. It is only a matter of time before people realize that it is very seldom that such things go unnoticed by others anyway, and it is far better to show responsibility and blow the whistle ourselves despite the reprocussions.
Comments please on anything above, and;
Has anyone seen or have any ideas for a gate system that can be put in place?, will a simple gate with padlock suffice given that concrete blocks have not done the job?
Should there be locked gates along the length of the trail as opposed to one at either end? (would this restrict access to other users or perhaps even encourage idiots to try and find another route around that are not supposed to be there)
How have you all enforced local bans keeping people off routes that have been volountarily closed?
perhaps permits and Keys be collected in person from a ranger at the same time a permit is paid for? (how often should keys be roatated to stop copies being used?)
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Hi burned. I appreciate that you are having a sensible discussion here, but you have repeatedly ignored the question about why you could not use a custom-made 4x4 course instead, which to me is the main part I don't understand - why?
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:sorry: Csurfleet
all around the country there are what we call "pay and play" sites, they are really popular in scotland as up there green lanes do not exist, everyone I know uses them, and they provide a hasstle free, controlled enviroment where it is possible to socialize and park up without feeling that you are detracting from someone elses day out.. they give a great variety of different obsticles and are a great place to learn how to drive offroad without being stranded in the middle of nowhere with diff oil leaking in to the moor for example.
Scotland proves that there is room for operating such a system. It is hard to reply to your question on behalf of every driver in the UK, personal preference is exactly that.
I can say that I personally have only been up stanage once a year in a motorised vehicle. Otherwise I use other lanes outside the park, or pay and plays. Variation is always good, and pay and plays cost money to go to. You dont always climb indoors do you?
Again, sorry for not replying sooner... I thought you were making a statement rather than asking a question.
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Thanks for the response, my general stance on fits with grumpycrumpys, I just don't see the appeal compared to alternatives I guess!
It can't be because they enjoy the scenery, if they did they'd park their vehicles at the bottom of a track and walk like the rest of us ......... It can't be because they appreciate seeing wildlife in it's natural habitat because if they did they wouldn't drive their vehicles so close to SSSI's and thus destroying what they'd come to view ........ It can't be the challenge as there so many disused quarries which could be sculpted to provide them with far more thrills ........
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Hi burned. I appreciate that you are having a sensible discussion here, but you have repeatedly ignored the question about why you could not use a custom-made 4x4 course instead, which to me is the main part I don't understand - why?
I know that it can be hard to comprehend, but it is exactly the same with climbing and biking - they are all fairly irrational when viewed from the outside. Why do people still ride footpaths when there are lots of trail centres dotted about? Why do we climb on natural rock outcrops when there are plenty of indoor walls and quarries to climb in?
I'm not into off-roading, but plenty of my friends are (in the South East, so not causing Peak problems), and they all seem to love it and rave about it in much the same way we do about climbing - solving problems and applying skill. I think we need to get beyond the 'why do you do it?' ("because it's there!") and focus on solving the specific issues, and accept that an outright blanket ban will never work unless accompanied by either strong enforcement or some incentives to play elsewhere.
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How have you all enforced local bans keeping people off routes that have been volountarily closed?
Permanently closed areas are generally in climbing guidebooks, as are long term seasonal restrictions (eg for nesting birds).
For up to date information the BMC has the Regional Access Database which you can check online. Restrictions are also publicized online and in the magazines. Sometimes there are signs and markers at the crags but this is probably the exception rather than the norm.
As for how it is enforced - peer pressure and public condemnation/ridicule (eg on internet forums) of those found ignoring restrictions. If you see someone ignoring a restriction then have a word as they might not know. There will always be a few muppets that think they know better though and that is why we can lose access to crags. The thing is it needs the wider climbing (or in your case off-road/greenlane) community onboard for it work and this is realistically only likely to happen after you lose access to a couple of high profile areas, at which point everyone involved realizes they have a stake and need to behave in what the wider public eye sees as a reasonable manner (not necessarily what you as 4x4ists might see as reasonable).
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Incidentally I think you are onto a loser with the idea that the Causeway could be maintained to still give some driving challenge - as Baron said above I think any public body tasked with restoring/resurfacing would either choose the traditional construction and then close the road to motor vehicles as the surface has been shown not to stand up to use, or, as they have done recently with the bike trails, cover it with gravel / tarmac in the name of access for all.
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Baron (and others) have made an important point. One issue is there is no happy medium to please all the 4x4ers. Like climbers they have a wide range of skills and abilities so a track for one novice driver will be impassable but for another will be a challenge.
For the higher end of the technical challenges, this involves the weight of a 2 ton vehicle and maybe a couple of hundred horsepower being put down through the tyres, unsurprisingly this causes erosion and damage to any even remotely loose surface every time. Even tarmac doesn't last long under this level of assault.
You don't have to watch one of these videos for long http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge (http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge) until you'll see rocks and boulders being moved by the vehicles wheels. Mountain Bikers, walkers and horse riders all cause some erosion, and popular footpaths and bridleways do need to be maintained. However the amount of erosion by a single user is minuscule whereas in many cases a single pass of a 4x4 will cause significant and measurable damage to the track. Foothpaths might be repaired once in a decade whereas to maintain a surface with this level of constant erosion a repair team would need to be there every month.
This is why some purpose built 4x4 tracks have interlocking concrete surfaces on their steep or technical sections as the owners know without it the erosion would be unsustainable. This level of unavoidable erosion is completely incompatible with any route or track of any historical importance or in any area of natural beauty/national park etc, irrespective of it's legal status.
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You don't have to watch one of these videos for long http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge (http://wn.com/landrover_stanage_edge) until you'll see rocks and boulders being moved by the vehicles wheels.
Holy shit! I haven't been on the causeway for a few years now. That is seriously churned up from when I was last there.
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Yep. Over the last few years the damage has been very depressing. I doubt the 4x4ers have any concept of what a beautiful thing it used to be.
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Yep. Over the last few years the damage has been very depressing. I doubt the 4x4ers have any concept of what a beautiful thing it used to be.
Regarding the above - I'm 30, not exactly ancient (?!). My first memory of visiting this end of Stanage is aged 16/17, so probably 1998/99 ish. My memory is of a fairly neatly made incline, with a sort of cobbled surface. I remember quite clearly being struck by the sense of human history. I could imagine it being used by a packhorse or even horse and cart on that day. Does no one else have a similar recollection? Or one from further back in the past? I'm really surprised that I can't find any pictures online to demonstrate this, but I think the picture below from Page 1 of this thread is worth a repost. Its from 2006. Anyone who is familiar with the causeway now will hardly recognise it from this picture. It has certainly changed beyond ALL RECOGNITION since my first visit. Now I don't know when it was buit (anyone?), but the fact it had lasted in a substantially recognisable state until at least 1999, which I guess is 100s of years, then in the last decade it has been completely destroyed is an absolute outrage. It is due to 4x4s. These clearly have no place driving the moors, I'm afraid that I can't formulate a cogent argument (although obviously they exist!) since to me it is so patently wrong. I have ever met a moors user who thinks otherwise apart from a 4x4 driver I saw stuck past his axle in the bog quite a long way downhill from the causeway, who I happily left to his fate.
Just looking at the below picture makes me angry for what has been lost. Thankfully it looks like 4x4'ers are on the wrong side of history in this debate; sadly they have already destroyed most of it already.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8489/8249557120_8edc950b40_z.jpg)
this photo is from 2006. don't know if it's any use. it's from a phone so small.
tbh i haven't been up there recently is it different to this?
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I'm sure on one of the threads on here someone found a photo online of the causeway from the 80s or 90s - looked pretty pristine. Whereas today it looks a fucking disgrace.
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My first memory of visiting this end of Stanage is aged 16/17, so probably 1998/99 ish. My memory is of a fairly neatly made incline, with a sort of cobbled surface. I remember quite clearly being struck by the sense of human history. I could imagine it being used by a packhorse or even horse and cart on that day. Does no one else have a similar recollection?
Yes, that's exactly as it was up til the late nineties. Near the top it was a properly laid surface, I think including two rows of large slabs for cart wheels. I've looked for photos before and struggled to find any, though I think there is a similar track surviving in the NW Peak.
Click on Obi's link if you want to see the current state. Of most concern to the county council (and hence the closure) is the potential collapse of the revetment.
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Thought so, thanks for confirming that. I know its probably not a historical treasure, but regardless the willfull destruction of it by 4x4s seems so at odds with the concept of the National Park (not to mention the antisocial nature of it RE other users) as to boggle the mind. If similar happened in the climbing community it would be self policed as soon as it was noticed. The fact is that this didn't happen in the 4x4 community because the destruction is exactly what they wanted, hence my use of the word "willfull" earlier. Hopefully they will fuck off for good to somewhere where it doesn't matter what a hash of the landscape they make. A National Park can never be appropriate.
In this case the law has been an ass in keeping it a highway for so long, as Dave says its historical hangover. In the same way that I don't go to Chester to take advantage of my "legal right" to skewer a Welshman on the basis that I'll get done for murder, I would hope any right-thinking person would restrain from driving a car through a delicate upland area, despite being "legally allowed" to do so. it is a great sadness that the NP could not have pushed this harder earlier, surely they have some statuatory powers to lever against Highways? Or is that what is happening, and sadly the time of due process has allowed the 4x4 lobby to finish off the causeway?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbOBdB_OA7g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbOBdB_OA7g#)
Depressing viewing but posted as evidence of my earlier argument that a single vehicle can do significant damage. Watch around 1:00 the amount of stones being shifted.
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well there you have it right there... the fukwit in all its glory. Shocking that he couldnt get his car through there any smoother than that.
The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos. and that the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory (I only write this for the benifit of the keyboard warriors out there, who have not actually been up, It may be worth taking your lazy ass into the park before injecting more "fuck offs" ? )
Re the concrete blocks.. I still dont know who moved them, but I read on another forum that a Landrover Owner at work, came across someone trying to move them, and while holding a shotgun had a stern word. It does seem that as soon as the back is turned, that the idiots will still come out to play.
perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion.. who knows.. maybe its easier not to give a toss when everyone is on your back and just do what you are already getting blamed for? Either way it needs to start with people talking to one another, and not about one another.
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The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos.
You've lost me there - only 15 years ago the track
the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory
I don't mean on the moor top, they used to go right down to the section in the video above. This is not a forum that has many 'keyboard warriors' most of us are up here on a weekly basis. Unlike your one BOAT we have over a thousand routes to go at. Funnily enough that's why we care so much.
As Nige said, climbing bans are generally enforced by peer pressure - which works very well, and we don't need guns. Clearly there is an issue with using the same approach for your community, because you are in moving vehicles. Anyone who visits Stanage regularly gets to see both legal misuse (as in the video) and illegal - trail bikes through the plantation, quads on ringinglow bog etc. Having spoken to a few I have the impression they don't consider themselves part of any wider community that would be able to exert peer pressure. Unfortunately they are the public face of your user group.
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perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion.. who knows.. maybe its easier not to give a toss when everyone is on your back and just do what you are already getting blamed for? Either way it needs to start with people talking to one another, and not about one another.
So if we all pat you on the back and say thanks for your contribution to the landscape you’ll start behaving as model citizens? Pull the other one.
The closure of the track, if anything, has served as a test of your community’s cohesion and good faith. As a community you failed that test. You turn intellectual summersaults to justify your use of the track on the basis of law and then ignore the imposition of law when you don’t like the outcome. Blaming it on bad apples doesn’t help your cause, because it is clear that you cannot control this element of your group, even when under strong public scrutiny. As climbers have found on occasion, as a group you are judged by the actions of your worst element.
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well there you have it right there... the fukwit in all its glory. Shocking that he couldnt get his car through there any smoother than that.
I can't disagree with that - pretty poor.
The first clip Obi posted was from 2007, and this most recently posted one from 2009. There is some small amount of consolation, in that today, the track, although far different from 30 years ago, hasnt actually degraded much (subjective comparison) in the last 10 15 years of usage from what we see in the videos. and that the slabs up the top remain in place in all their glory (I only write this for the benifit of the keyboard warriors out there, who have not actually been up, It may be worth taking your lazy ass into the park before injecting more "fuck offs" ? )
I suspect that I am one of the people that you are referring to here. You have to remember that my first post on this thread was trying to add balance to the debate (stating that just because we can't understand off-roading doesn't mean others don't see value). It was only when I saw the videos that I was shocked so I said so. I moved away from the Peak in 2004, and although the causeway was fairly rough then, it was nothing like it is in those videos (and I realise that they are focusing on a small section of the road). I realise that I don't have the same level of say in this as those who are still locals, but I spent 10 very happy years frequently climbing and walking around Stanage, and the area is very close to my heart. It pains me that circumstances keep me away from somewhere I love and it is really sad to see places get trashed by anyone (walkers, climbers, off-roaders, whoever). This is my only concern; I am ambivalent about 4x4s in general.
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I realise that I don't have the same level of say in this as those who are still locals........
The consensus seems to be that it follows the route of a roman road around 1000 years old. Even if the surface wasn't the original roman laid cobbles, there are few remaining 'streets' in the UK. Like any ancient monument of "national importance (http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1007052)", it is our civic duty to protect it for generations to come, irrespective of who we are or where we live in the country.
Reading up on the 'Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979' I'm surprised that it isn't used to prevent use by 4x4s...
28 Offence of damaging certain ancient monuments.
(1)A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any protected monument—
(a)knowing that it is a protected monument; and
(b)intending to destroy or damage the monument or being reckless as to whether the monument would be destroyed or damaged;shall be guilty of an offence.
(2)This section applies to anything done by or under the authority of the owner of the monument, other than an act for the execution of excepted works, as it applies to anything done by any other person.In this subsection “excepted works” means works for which scheduled monument consent has been given under this Act (including any consent granted by order under section 3).
(3)In this section “protected monument” means any scheduled monument and any monument under the ownership or guardianship of the Secretary of State [F84or the Commission] or a local authority by virtue of this Act.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or both; or
(b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.
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Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979'
You could be onto something!, but, when I spoke to Peaks Agency a year or so ago, it was pretty clear that the causeway is classified as a road, managed by the highways agency and funded by the council to which the lane belongs, and not a historical monument - it is subject to the laws like any other that runs anywhere else in the country with tarmac on it.
I see the problem here, and it seems that there are too many conflicting opinions all trying to resolve themselves;
opinion 1, this is a road, I have a right to use it, and I am not interested in anything more. The local council have a duty to maintain it blah blah....
opinion 2, I have a right to use the track, and I appreciate that somthing needs to be done to ensure that it is still there in the future.
opinion 3, this is not a road, and anyone who thinks that it is has no concience and should be openly hated by everyone, including those who share opinion 2.
opinion 4, fuck the world and the laws in it.
Pleasing one of the opinions will always leave the other three wanting more, and nothing will change unless everyone feels like they are getting something out of whatever progress is made.... Its a lost battle, the week I have invested in here have generated nothing more than hate and suggested nothing more than starting a flame war on the internet.
Bummer for everyone, nothing changes.
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You don't come across like you came here to have your mind changed. You come across like you came here to sell an entrenched position. You can't really then have a go at other people who are unpersuaded by your arguments and are therefore equally as unlikely to change position as you.
It doesn't strike me as the type of issue with a great deal of room for compromise either way. What kind of outcome were you hoping for?
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suggesting that lanes be closed is not warranted as "changing my mind"?, what a joke.
On the contrary, I think you are a little delusional believing that the 4x4 drivers have to give anything at all right now.
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suggesting that lanes be closed is not warranted as "changing my mind"?, what a joke.
You don't want to have lanes closed, ergo you would have to change your mind to accept otherwise. This is entirely my point. You want to drive this lane, virtually everyone else wants you not to. What compromise can exist which reconciles the two wants? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just saying I can't see any kind of compromise that could in any way satisfy the two competing wants. Can you? Hence my question: what outcome are you hoping for?
On the contrary, I think you are a little delusional believing that the 4x4 drivers have to give anything at all right now.
Please quote me making that assertion. I don't think I did. I've heard nothing to convince me you can be persuaded not to use the causeway voluntarily based on the weight of opinion against your tiny minority. Like you say, you don't "have to give anything" and I'm sure you won't unless forced to by the powers that be.
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it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails
or
perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion..
Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?
I can say with certainty that a larger percentage of the offroad community are willing to make sacrafice and come to a compromise regarding the peaks, than the "everyone else" catagory.. Facinating isnt it?
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it isnt so easy closing a road without the support of the highways agency or police. We have tried it on other trails
or
perhaps it takes a TRO on a lane or two for more people to share my opinion..
Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?
I can say with certainty that a larger percentage of the offroad community are willing to make sacrafice and come to a compromise regarding the peaks, than the "everyone else" catagory.. Facinating isnt it?
Great, so you are suggesting other users are barred from using the causeway for parts of the year. Good luck gathering converts here for that compromise! I think that’s called adding insult to injury.
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Hahaha awesome : ) I especially loved the part where you neglected to suggest anything! Enjoy your legal right to share the lane with us.
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Of course here is a compromise, it is where damage is managable, just like any footpath, bridleway or cycle route - and the lanes are still accessable to all parties exclusively at different times of the year. But it does mean "everyone else" will not be getting all they want... does that in any way define a compromise?
I think other users would be right behind this (we do similar elsewhere) if it had some positive outcome - like the road regenerating during the close season, or producing young. Unfortunately that's where your plan falls down.
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I especially loved the part where you neglected to suggest anything! Enjoy your legal right to share the lane with us.
There's a few aspects to all of this. 4x4s damage the Causeway. I'm sure you won't argue with this. From here there are two main issues.
1. 4x4s currently have a legal right to use the causeway.
2. 4x4 users have repeatedly demonstrated that they disregard any restrictions to use. Your most recent comments purely reinforce this fact.
The former is an anomaly brought about by an ancient calssification as road and technology has moved on so that current usage does not equate to what was originally intended. This can only be addressed by changed in status/ the law.
The latter demonstrates that there can be no compromises with 4x4 users. They* repeatedly ignore restrictions/ go off road and damage peatland. Since no compromise can be found, there are only two outcomes. The law remains the same and 4x4 users continue to damage the causeway. Or, the law is changed to make it illegal and any gung ho 4x4 users breaching the ban are prosecuted.
I suspect you can guess which of the two options most UKBers would prefer.
*at least some, but as pointed out previously one bad apple spoils the whole bunch
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Your ability to generalize is fantastically warped, luckily its people such as yourself that enable offroading to continue as it does today, and make your peers seem equally as clueless as you..
You need to learn how not to be an ignorant dick and stop accusing innocent people of breaking the law.
For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.
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Can you point out the part where GCW accused innocent people? He said 4 x 4 users have ignored restrictions and gone off road onto peat, he didn't say all 4x4 users.
I wonder if with a bit of publicity for a proposed change of law, 100,000 names could be got on a petition so that this can go to parliament?
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For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.
There isn't no, but prosecutions are vanishingly rare. Illegal use typically occurs at dusk and dawn, in vehicles with the plates removed. Its generally impossible to get police on site quick enough to catch them.
Video evidence is very useful, so don't be shy folks.
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Can you point out the part where GCW accused innocent people? He said 4 x 4 users have ignored restrictions and gone off road onto peat, he didn't say all 4x4 users.
I wonder if with a bit of publicity for a proposed change of law, 100,000 names could be got on a petition so that this can go to parliament?
His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general, and mentions nothing about motorbikes. Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.
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His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general
The latter demonstrates that there can be no compromises with 4x4 users. They* repeatedly ignore restrictions/ go off road
*at least some, but as pointed out previously one bad apple spoils the whole bunch
Burned, do you not understand the *? or are you blind to smaller typeface? or most likely you should learn to read things properly.
Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.
not sure evidence needs to fabricated with videos like that about. but im sure you can collect us some more "evidence" by going and trashing some more beautiful places :thumbsup:
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His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general,
Burned, the climbing community has been through this in the past with the birding and wildlife lobbies. Outsiders to whatever pastime always see the bad apples as the norm and the well-behaved majority as the exception. There really isn't any choice for yourselves except to change attitude as a community and become self-policing and be seen to be stamping down on the idiots. 5 minutes on google last night (I was curious about the attitude to Stanage on the land rover forums and work is slow at the moment) lead me to someone saying how he'd driven up and down the Causeway for many years and the voluntary TRO wasn't going to change that. No responses saying 'don't be an idiot' or anything resembling condemnation.
The 'no-body likes us so f*ck em all we'll do what we want' attitude is very satisfying in the short term but in the medium - long term won't gain you anything.
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The vast majority of people who go into the peak moorland do so to escape things from the mechanised world such as cars. They don't expect to see 4x4 trashing areas of scientific importance. I doubt most 4x4 drivers really look at where they are.
Humans are trashing huge areas of the world, so places like the causeway & the peak need to be treasured for future generations.
The 4x4 community reminds me of the worst of the 80s: we can so we will. In their gas guzzling motors not considering the consequences of their actions.
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I appreciate the potential for damage up there as much as any of you guys, but the videos really only show one section of the lane that is really bad.
I appreciate that there are many hardcore guys out there that will fight to the death to keep the lane, and justify antisocial behaviour, but its not all of us, and it is very frustrating to be so powerless to stop it... and then be accused of doing the very things that disgust us so much. Furthermore it is the irrisponsable, and illegal drivers that are causing the problem, and like chris said, there are even the occasional ones that are prepared to say fuck the world in public, This is no secret, and it is naive to think that we dont have any in climbing or freeride either - I pisses me off that nobody said "oi, wtf mate.." but now I understand why..
Given how hard it has been to even come close to any sort of solution with anyone in here, I am going to give up the ghost on this one, enjoy the trails while they are still around, and leave the rest of the world to sort it out. I have suggested viable solutions to renovation, maintenance, funding and regulation of the lanes, pretty much everything short of the illegal aspect. It is selfish, but seeing as there has been no progress here, I cant see it being any different IRL.
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I have suggested viable solutions to renovation, maintenance, funding and regulation of the lanes, pretty much everything short of the illegal aspect. It is selfish, but seeing as there has been no progress here, I cant see it being any different IRL.
Yes you have and it is noted and appreciated. Unfortunately I think you will find that the vast majority of moors users will be in favour of a ban i.e. "the illegal aspect". Even if you could make your suggestions for living in peace work (which I doubt, as a community), fact is I suspect most people want no MOTORISED (I not you distinction betwenn 4x4s and bikes here, where I don't see one) traffic whatsoever. Herein lies the rub, and a rub which is heavily weighted aginst you I suspect.
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Cheers Nigel, if anyone has the power to change poilicy on the lanes, its the offroaders. Even with my liberal view on conservation, I am a realist, and know that there is no chance at all in convincing offroad users to commit harikari on this issue. If it is all or nothing, then nothing it shall be.
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Your ability to generalize is fantastically warped, luckily its people such as yourself that enable offroading to continue as it does today, and make your peers seem equally as clueless as you..
You need to learn how not to be an ignorant dick and stop accusing innocent people of breaking the law.
For the record, there is currently nothing to prevent illegal offroaders from being prosecuted right now.
That's a very aggressive reply to a reasonable argument, and you call me a dick? Interesting, it certainly helps you solidify your argument. Maybe if you actually read what I have said then you would have a decent response?
His whole post points the finger at 4x4 users in general, and mentions nothing about motorbikes. Good luck with the petition, I am sure the government will push that one straight through for you, go ahead and just fabricate any info or evidence you need so we can tear you a new one in court again.
No it doesn't, it quite clearly states the bad apple principle. I didn't mention motorbikes because nobody from the biking community has come on here and made any points. I didn't feel it appropriate to finger point when they don't have the ability to defend themselves.
I appreciate the potential for damage up there as much as any of you guys, but the videos really only show one section of the lane that is really bad.
That's OK, as long as it's only part of the lane that is getting trashed. Phew.
Cheers Nigel, if anyone has the power to change poilicy on the lanes, its the offroaders. Even with my liberal view on conservation, I am a realist, and know that there is no chance at all in convincing offroad users to commit harikari on this issue. If it is all or nothing, then nothing it shall be.
Interestingly, this is the point that I was making but somehow I'm an ignorant dick and you are just fucking awesome.
It's a real shame, earlier in this thread you made some reasoned arguments but recently you've just talked shite and made yourself look foolish, which has completely negated all of your earlier useful input. So maybe you are a typical off roader after all?
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I am going to give up the ghost on this one, enjoy the trails while they are still around, and leave the rest of the world to sort it out.
What a horrendous attitude. Do you make your mum pick up your toys after you've thrown them out of the pram?
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GCW being called a dick for no reason whatsoever is quite funny though.
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I've been called worse.
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GCQ, as you had guessed, I negated to read the small print.. Sorry for going off on you, really, I feel as big the fool as I am sure I look.
At first, I thought "everyone" was just being ignorant and rather closed minded.. I was wrong though, you guys have just accepted what it has taken me a little longer to work out.
There is just no point in discussing, promoting or trying to meet halfway, nobody is into it, so why bother... its a bit like kicking yourself in the other leg until you get tired. Its much more fun to hang out with the lads and just accept I am going to be a punching bag until I get tired of the rover and buy a track day car.
I will be happy to interject an "opposite" perspective on any future discussions though.
Again, GCQ... I was wrong to call you a dick, and you handled the accusation really maturely mate. Sorry
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Fair dos, its an emotive subject and you're out on your own on this forum. I think we all appreciate the perspective you've brought, there is certainly no easy solution here. As you have said above the law is ultimately on your side despite what I'd suggest is a self-evident unsustainability.
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I don't know which is worse, being called a dick or GCQ......... :P
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hahaha goddammit... good stuff mate.
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Burned - The problem with the compromise you’ve put forward, as far as I understand it, is that it doesn’t represent any real gain for other users. Ok there will be no vehicles on the Causeway during defined periods of the year, but will this actually mean less traffic, or just the same (and growing level of) traffic concentrated on less days? I know that if Stanage were closed to climbing for every other month of the year it would likely not reduce the number of visits I (or like minded locals) made in a year, I’d just be climbing at a busier crag every other month.
The track would get a concentrated thrashing for a few months then you’d all go elsewhere while the highways people come in and fix the damage (during the other users’ ‘exclusive’ period presumably) just in time for the next round. :shrug:
On first reading I think I might be well prefer the status quo, if that was the best alternative on offer.
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If the Causeway does reopen, it would be good to properly implement the system that was trialled previously - ie downhill only, small groups only. Rather than seasonal closures, I'd prefer to see it closed weekends and bank holidays, ie weekdays only. This is the system on the nearby road up the reservoirs for similar reasons, ie the road is unsuited to anything other than low numbers of vehicles. As has been said repeatedly above, anything like this would however require the users to get their act together and self-police...
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hey Bonjoy, like I said, this one is going to take too much of my time, but when I spoke to the guys over in the PA, I asked how difficult it would be to put a paid permit system in place, and they said it would be no harder than changing anything else up there. That was my idea for trying to restrict the amount using the trail.. (I also shared that though in the thread about it getting swamped on the lanes when they opened, as I too suspect it would be the case)
The illegal thing is ultimately up to self policing, because the local bobbies just dont have a clue. Although should there be a paid permit like above, then obviously the local ranger would have access to reg numbers, checking licenses and taking names during the time of purchase.
Great feedback Johnny, great to know we are on the right track with that type of idea.. there is still a lot of residual effort out there from me during the last week. If I can get anyone else to jump on and follow it up, I will let you all know how it gets on.
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Well, good news and bad I am afraid.
Bad news is that nobody else is interested in picking up where I left off. And the best excuse I got as to why we do not persecute wreckless behaviour was that "we move in different circles" (ie, not my problem)... Other threads such as parking, congestion tax, dodgy ebay items and x5 drivers generated much more interest and all that was happening in the end was me "bumping" my own threads.
On the other hand, good news.
Given the level of interest/feedback and my general annoyance that nothing is being done, when I was out in the car on friday night getting my shopping, I decided the right thing to do was just to sell the car, get something that doesnt cost so much to run and get a new hobby.
So, yesterday I sold it.
The Defender is gone, the Freelander 2 is paid for and I start flying lessons in march to get my Paramotor License instead. Consider me converted.
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Wow. It's a shame that other off roaders aren't as reasonable.
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Wow indeed. I'm not surprised by the response from the forums, what does surprise me is how few realise how self-defeating it is. Ah well, our gain I suppose...
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well, picked up the new car today, and really, I owe you guys a massive thanks. The difference between running around in a tractor with rear seats and the new found luxury of a waterproof car is simply amazing. I miss the Defender a little, but I think it isnt so much the car, but more the places around Europe it has taken us to be honest. Bit of a pain in the arse that the woman has been hinting that she should be driving it, despite us having ordered her a new car at the start of the year... women...
I wish you guys all the best of luck with the campaign, I honestly do. Its no secret to anyone that has taken the time to read through the pages and pages of posts that it will be difficult to find any middle ground for either sides, but everyone knows deep down what the right thing to do is, and someone has to take the first step towards that goal.
I still have a little faith in humanity though, and convinced myself that the reason nobody was posting is because they didnt want to look foolish in front of their peers, rather than they disagreed... otherwise they would have said something?... right?.. or maybe they just dont give a shit...?
Who knows... but in the words of Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch, you got to "murder your darlings" sometimes, and personally, I feel much better for doing it.
If there are any other offroaders out there following this thread, I am not suggesting you just sell out like I did... I need new things in my life constantly to keep me happy, but I would encourage you to look around yourself and ask if the people you surround yourself with are motosport entusiasts, or outdoor enthusiasts. Their motives may be different to yours and their opinion on what is best FOR YOU will obviously be strongly influenced by such. Stand up for what you believe in, but do not ignore the facts.. and finally, think of others as you would like them to think of you.
Peace out
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Further on the subject of the 'responsible' off road users - I was fell running on bleaklow this morning at 9.30 on a beautiful day, just in time to be passed by 8 scramble bikes going over Marjory Hill a site of SSI and about 7 miles from the nearest road. As I was trying to get a reg plate, 2 of them stopped and 'offered me out' for trying to peek a plate. Thoroughly nice, and as far as I'm concerned more evidence of the selfish nature of these pricks.
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http://www.ridesheffield.org.uk/2013/04/stanage-causeway-resurfacing-fiasco/ (http://www.ridesheffield.org.uk/2013/04/stanage-causeway-resurfacing-fiasco/)
:slap:
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http://www.ridesheffield.org.uk/2013/04/stanage-causeway-resurfacing-fiasco/ (http://www.ridesheffield.org.uk/2013/04/stanage-causeway-resurfacing-fiasco/)
:slap:
Cheers, had heard there was a problem, but details were lacking, that was very useful.
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From Ride Sheffield via Facebook;
Response from DCC to my freedom of information request about Stanage Pole below:
"We have received one complaint which we viewed as reasonable and concluded that the route was in poor condition for the range of users entitled to use the route. We have liaised with the National Park Authority and Natural England over the refurbishment of the route and gained their support.
Approximately £35,000 will be spent on this first phase of work and we have reserved £235,000 for further surfacing works and attention to the retaining walls up to March 2015.
Approximately 110 individuals have contacted us suggesting the work is unnecessary. We respect and understand the challenge this route offers mountain bikers however, as the Highways Authority we have judged the route to be in poor condition and wish to make it safer and more accessible to the wider public and this includes horse-riders who have stayed away from the route because of its condition."
So that's a cool quarter of a mill, due to one complaint.
If I made 1 complaint about libraries closing do you think 250k would be spent to keep one open?
beggars belief
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fuck me internally.
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From Ride Sheffield via Facebook;
and this includes horse-riders who have stayed away from the route because of its condition."
It was a horse rider wot complained I presume.
Does the Causeway not have any protection as a historic site / unique example of its type that can be used to save it from DCC?
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I doubt it was a horse rider, the 4x4 crew are very up on the law and I suspect the one complaint may have had rather more legal bite than the opposition. On the plus side, you should be able to drive up it in a family car soon.
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Repairing a 'road' for 4x4 users... who are currently banned from using it... That about right?
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Democracy in action :clap2:
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From Ride Sheffield via Facebook;
" and we have reserved £235,000 for further surfacing works and attention to the retaining walls up to March 2015"
Presumably that means they are planning on letting the 4x4's on it again at some point. Which is a shame.
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On the plus side, you should be able to drive up it in a family car soon.
Nice one - shaves 5 mins off the walk in to high neb if you park by the style
:wall:
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http://www.wrightdemolitionequipment.co.uk/hydraulic-breakers (http://www.wrightdemolitionequipment.co.uk/hydraulic-breakers)
I wonder how much hiring one of those costs...
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Stile :-[
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/via GraemeA
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/vehicle-ban-for-peak-district-green-lane (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/current-news/vehicle-ban-for-peak-district-green-lane)
Hope they put something sturdier in than the most recent gate which got ripped open fairly easily.
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Hot off the press
20 September 2013
ID 1083
National Park Authority to keep Stanage and North Lees estate
The Peak District National Park Authority is to retain the ownership and management of the popular climbing, walking and wildlife area of Stanage Edge and the surrounding North Lees estate.
The Authority’s audit, resources and performance committee today (Sept 20) voted unanimously to keep the 545-hectare estate above Hathersage, and to drive forward a business plan to make it break even financially by September 2014.
The Authority has been reviewing all its properties in the light of Government cuts of more than 30 per cent in its budget between 2011-2015, and has previously leased its Eastern Moors estate to a partnership of the National Trust and RSPB and the Roaches to the Staffordshire Wildlife Trust.
Such a partnership option was considered but discounted in this case.
Committee chair Christopher Pennell said: “We wanted to give certainty on the future of the estate for the sake of the local community, users, tenants, the Authority’s managers and staff and everyone who knows and loves it. After careful consideration we concluded that the Authority is in the best position to run the North Lees estate.
“It was bought with public money and we are fully committed to ensuring public access, conservation, education and innovation.
“We believe in it, our officers have given us a business plan showing how it could be brought to a position where we recover full costs, and we want them to get on with it without the distraction of continuing to investigate the possibility of external partnerships or disposal.
“This will mean people may have to be prepared to pay more than they have before, for instance for car parking, camping, refreshment concessions or for utilising buildings. But they can rest assured that there would never be any restriction or charge for access, and that any income generated on the estate will be re-invested in the estate.
“We also want to assure community and user groups, who are as passionate about Stanage and the North Lees estate as we are, that they will be fully involved in formulating a new vision for the estate for the 21st century.”
He welcomed the fact that some of them spoke at the meeting – they were Rob Dyer from the British Mountaineering Council, Jean Hodgkinson from the Stanage Forum, John Thompson from the Peak District Local Access Forum and Keith Jennings, a former head of property for the national park authority.
After the decision John Thompson said: “This is something that we could certainly welcome. We do think it’s important to refresh the vision for the estate and it’s something we’re prepared to put a lot of energy into.”
In addition to Stanage Edge, which attracts climbers from all over the world, the North Lees estate includes
• a 480 hectare farm (1186 acres), recently let to a 23 year old farmer who will raise traditional-breed sheep and cattle
• the North Lees campsite, with 60 pitches
• eight woodlands (45 hectares) – where applications have been made for conservation grants
• traditional farm buildings including a Grade 2 listed cruck barn that could be used for community events in conjunction with the farm tenant
• four car parks
• the Elizabethan North Lees Hall (leased until 2038 to the historic buildings charity the Vivat Trust for holiday accommodation). The hall’s east wing is to be refurbished as accommodation for the farm tenant.
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Word on the street is that just as the National Park Authority have voted to ban motorised vehicles from the causeway, derbyshire county council have decided to spend a further £250,000 repairing the embanked section. Presumably it need to be fit for mobility scooters.
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:wall:
talk about Right Hand talking to the Left Hand. It beggars belief.
Still, I reckon (hope) DDCC may think twice about spending their precious cash if the ban on vehicles comes to fruition swiftly. Current financial climate and all that.