UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: ashtond6 on October 21, 2018, 09:19:08 pm
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May have been asked before, my general views of power training is either limit problems, fingerboards or moonboards/woodies.
All of these basically mean jumping/falling from the top which is destroying my back (could barely walk on thursday, at 29 this is not good)
Any other ideas?
I can't reverse the moon board and I ain't paying 8£ to use a fingerboard
Thanks
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Any other ideas?
get your back sorted? What's the problem with it?
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Is it the falling and landing that’s doing the damage? I can’t do too many high landings on the hard mats at bouldering walls.. so climb down where possible.
Or only do problems where the hard bit is a sensible distance from the deck..? Aren’t there 900 kazillion problems on the moon board nowadays?
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...I ain't paying 8£ to use a fingerboard
Can't you fingerboard at home? There are mounts that can be fitted into doorways without having to drill into walls.
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When I used to get lower back pain after falling/ jumping off from high up I realised that I was tensing my back when I fell. Consciously staying relaxed on impact really helped with it.
Interested to hear any advice on this topic though as I can’t land at all any more unfortunately.
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All of these basically mean jumping/falling from the top which is destroying my back (could barely walk on thursday, at 29 this is not good)
Any other ideas?
I can't reverse the moon board and I ain't paying 8£ to use a fingerboard
See a physio. You'll probably find you can self refer to an NHS service but depends on where you live.
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My Mrs is a highly trained physio, she says climbers are dicks for our repeated back impact, which is true!
If you jump from 6m, 10 times a session, 3 times a week, 30 times a week is bound to fuck it up!
:tease:
Fingerboarding doesn't really sort the other muscles imo.
Best idea so far is the one to pick low cruxes!
Thanks for the interest and advice so far
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When lagers was recovering from his ankle injury he used to fall (on mats) with a parachute roll at the end. I sometimes do that when dropping off the top of some wall problems.
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When my bruised heel was particularly bad, I just climbed on the moonboard. Only falling off the top hurt it so when I got to the top, I got a mate to push a box jump box under me to step off on to.
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I have had reoccurring back problems for many years. I often got a stiff/ sore back when using bouldering walls a lot. Some walls the matting seemed to give me a whiplash effect when jumping off.
I built a board at home 40 degrees 8 inch kicker 12 foot overhanging board. So when you drop off it’s only a foot or two. I no longer get back problems in the same way, obviously if I come off and go arse over tit. I might get an issue or two.
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If you jump from 6m, 10 times a session, 3 times a week, 30 times a week is bound to fuck it up!
:tease:
To train pure power Limit problems should be just a few moves long, three max? Start from a sit and you can just step off at the end. Don't worry if there's more problem above, ticking the lastest green swirls problem isn't the goal.
you didn't mention campussing? Would have thought that'd be a decent bet.
Obviously jumping from 6m x 30 a week isn't going to do anyone any good but walls genreally aren't that high are they. I've had back issues for the last decade off and on. Managed to keep it under control at various points with yoga, pilates, callisthenics, self massage & streching and more recently by exercises focussing on the Glutes, hamstrings and lumbar area.
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As mentioned above, just do 4 move sit-starts. Although the Moon board isn't exactly high, so if dropping off that is screwing your back then that sounds like there's an underlying issue.
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My Mrs is a highly trained physio, she says climbers are dicks for our repeated back impact, which is true!
If you jump from 6m, 10 times a session, 3 times a week, 30 times a week is bound to fuck it up!
6m?? what walls are you going to? the moonboard is 4m from the top if that. do you do any other stuff to strengthen your back?
Fingerboarding isn't training power surely?
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Hi johnny
Echoing what most other people have said, I think the best plan is to get your back sorted. And perhaps analyze how you are landing. For someone as tall as you, your feet can only be 1.5m from the floor if you drop off the top of the moon board. You've got a lot of climbing years ahead of you so it really isn't worth avoiding whatever the problem is with your back. FWIW I always down climb at least a couple of moves before jumping off.
In addition to the other advice you could also 'boulder on a rope' i.e. try a route well above your grade indoors and work it. Doesn't sound as convenient as having a better back though!
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This may or may not be relevant to you ashtond6, but my experience:
I used to suffer with at times quite severe lower back pain, made worse by jumping off problems (current age 26!!).
Turned out to be an underlying issue of a weak core/ lower back, along with very tight hamstrings and poor hip flexibility (I was bending at my lower back rather than hips).
Problems disappeared after I spent time doing a lot of core work, to the point I could front lever comfortably (having been previously nowhere near any kind of lever). At the same time, just adding some simple squats to my warm up helped my hamstrings sufficiently to alleviate that problem. Have had no more back problems now for years.
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Early on in my climbing, I sprained my ankle quite badly. Before I got to the point when it could take any impact, I'd go to the bouldering wall and do nothing but sit starts, stopping at the point where I could step down off the wall.
I've never got so much stronger so fast.
If you've got access to a Moonboard, that'd be ideal for that; I bet people could give you recommendations for problems with brutally hard starts.
My Mrs is a highly trained physio, she says climbers are dicks for our repeated back impact, which is true!
If you jump from 6m, 10 times a session, 3 times a week, 30 times a week is bound to fuck it up!
Yeah, but most boulderers don't have permanently fucked up backs. Which means it's worth looking for rehab/prehab stuff to make your back stronger and more resilient.
Also, if you do have a weakness in your back muscles (or how they're activating, or your posture, or whatever), that'll be affecting your ability to exert strength and power through your posterior chain. So worth trying to identify and fix it for that reason if no other!
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you didn't mention campussing? Would have thought that'd be a decent bet.
This was my thought also.
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Campussing is bloody awful if you have a bad back! You're guaranteed to drop off from quite high unless you're doing 1-2-3.
As others have said, core/glutes strengthening and spikey ball rolling. See a physio, or in my case, a myofacial release therapist (who sorted out my chronic bad back in one session) as your problems may be compounded by something not obvious.
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I think you're not on the skinny waif end of the build spectrum, right?
Maybe you're just not landing right? When recovering from my knee surgery I was very cautious of letting my knee bend too far, due to there bring a physical end stop (shorter ligaments). So I landed with "strong" legs and hinged at the waist. This often led to a tired lower back and tight hamstrings. Could you try to focus on minimising the impulse of the landing, by using softer legs and to spread the peak force out a bit?
Also, don;t go to failure. Drop off deliberately when form goes bad. (good for your shoulders and elbow anyway).
Could you take a boulder mat and sit it under the campus board, soften / reduce the landing a bit?
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If you jump from 6m, 10 times a session, 3 times a week, 30 times a week is bound to fuck it up!
Same recommendations as above: don't go too high, learn to fall, strengthen the relevant muscles.
On a more general note, I'm a physio. and I try not to treat friends and family beyond giving general advice. It's difficult to be objective and, if things don't go well, it can get very messy. I suggest seeking help from someone who is not your wife, however highly trained she may be!
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Thanks all - some really good food for thought here :)
I definitely have a weak core so I will focus on this, ask her to work on my back more which is often uncomfortable & not climb to the top when limit climbing!
Building a board in my garage too which should allow me to stack mats at the highest point.
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Campussing is bloody awful if you have a bad back! You're guaranteed to drop off from quite high unless you're doing 1-2-3.
As others have said, core/glutes strengthening and spikey ball rolling. See a physio, or in my case, a myofacial release therapist (who sorted out my chronic bad back in one session) as your problems may be compounded by something not obvious.
Sorry to hijack the thread but can you recommend a Sheffield based myofascial release therapist? I'm a long sufferer from lower back pain which has got worse recently from having to stand on the jam packed train to and from Manchester.
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It’s Louise 07872 078335
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I suggest seeking help from someone who is not your wife, however highly trained she may be!
Ask yourself - whats in it for her to get you back out climbing 24/7? :-\
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Best thing I did to sort out my recurring lower back issues was buy a Volvo.
To drive that is....
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I think the standard Moonboard is 3.15 meters high, but I understand that falling off in awkward positions is always a bad thing for your back. This depends mostly by the kind of setting that people do on the Moonboard, in which almost every move - especially at the top - involves a dyno and a cut loose.
My advice goes as follows: have your back checked by another doctor; train on steep problems without cutting loose.
For the second, if you're building your own board, focus on the footholds and on moves - and hand holds - that will not allow a cut loose without falling.
Work on core tension.
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Oh, and do deadlifts.
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Just to add a different opinion, I would recommend not doing deadlifts. Or kettlebell swings. The small possibility of gains is not worth the risk IMO - do other core instead.
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I second the deadlifts and kettlebells. I had ten years of back problems culminating in 2014 with a perma-damaged sciatic nerve and back surgery. I started kettlebell workouts within 18 months following surgery, and deadlifts a bit later. Provided you stick with good form and don't go too heavy they can be a very effective tool for strengthening and stabilsing the whole chain. Everyone's different though and it depends on your circumstances.
I train on the moonboard lots and falling/jumping from the top of that and other boulderiong causes me no issues.
Another vote for doing 2-4 move problems for power. And build a 50 degree woody in your garage if you really don't want to build a stronger back that can withstand falling from above 3 metres.
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Just to add a different opinion, I would recommend not doing deadlifts. Or kettlebell swings. The small possibility of gains is not worth the risk IMO - do other core instead.
What risk?
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Katy Whit knackered her back deadlifting I think.
I took the risk and it did my lower back the world of good.
:devangel:
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The danger of hurting yourself.
I did a little deadlifting a few years back and it made no real difference to anything. Tried it again at the start of this year, and kettlebell swings... not been able to train core since Feb because of it. The 0.1% gain you might get from it isn't worth the risk compared to rings, upside down sits, TRX, floor core etc IMO
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When lagers was recovering from his ankle injury he used to fall (on mats) with a parachute roll at the end. I sometimes do that when dropping off the top of some wall problems.
I still do this - the difference in back pain is amazing - everyone should do it when dropping from the top of a bouldering wall - I wish I had learned this when I was younger
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The danger of hurting yourself.
I did a little deadlifting a few years back and it made no real difference to anything. Tried it again at the start of this year, and kettlebell swings... not been able to train core since Feb because of it. The 0.1% gain you might get from it isn't worth the risk compared to rings, upside down sits, TRX, floor core etc IMO
This sounds the danger of shit technique, which also exists in fingerboarding, campus, TRX etc etc. Any training at the suitable intensity carries a risk of injury. Appropriate technique training at an easy load followed by a steady ramping up of effort is required in any training activity.
Having a Phasmatodean morphology may make you more succeptible to injury in hip hinge exercises.
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Alex didn't you also fuck yourself doing finger training, or was that actually on a route/boulder? The point being you can injure yourself doing pretty much anything, either through misfortune or mistake. Get your point about risk, but.. don't agree really
I find it hard to believe it isn't instinctive for everyone to roll over after jumping down in order to reduce impact on joints.. but then I suppose I just have to think of watching how some people land after jumping down from the stone wall after walking out of the diamond. Like a sack of cement hitting the pavement.. looking at you Luke ;D
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I've tweaked fingers bouldering outside, bouldering inside, route climbing outside and fingerboarding... but all of those are things I believe to be "worth the risk"
1 and 3 - thats just being a climber. My two recrurring/chronic issues came from climbing outdoors.
2 and 4 - I think the gains to be had from indoor bouldering and fingerboarding are again worth any risk. That said I wouldn't do things like spend a whole session boning crimps on a steep board because it wouldn't be worth it. Fingerboarding has only ever been minor tweaks. These are also very hard to get around if you want to get strong - almost every strong climber will advocate one of/both of these, which is very much not true of lifting.
IMO deadlifting can easily not be done, and you can do other stuff instead. The small gains available are not worth the risk IMO. Obvs people can make up their own minds, and coaches are divided on thinking its useful or a waste of time/energy, I just wanted to provide a contrary voice to the ukb deadlifting massive
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I have to say I largely agree with you Alex, my feeling is that you probably injure yourself to some extent because you have done a lot of specific training for relatively tweaky hold configurations - pockets for Era Vella or hard crimping at the tor for example. Obviously it's also because you have skinny girl fingers.
If one were, for example Megos or similar, and had all the time in the world to train, impeccable movement skills, and fingers of steel, a bit of deadlifting might give an extra couple of percent. It certainly seems as though it would have worth, but its specificity is so low I can't see that investing anymore than a tiny per cent of time in it would be worthwhile.
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I think it depends on your individual circumstances.
If you haven't suffered with back problems which negatively affect your ability to climb then I can see how you might view things like deadlifting and kettlebells as not worth the risk (of injury). Much like I don't really need to do as much fingerboard max hangs as someone with weaker fingers than me, because my fingers are relatively strong naturally.
But if you do or have suffered back problems which stop you climbing your best then there's a lot of long-term health benefits to be gained from doing these types of strengthening routines. (aka - not having a vulnerable fucked back)
It isn't black and white.
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I think it depends on your individual circumstances.
If you haven't suffered with back problems which negatively affect your ability to climb then I can see how you might view things like deadlifting and kettlebells as not worth the risk (of injury). Much like I don't really need to do as much fingerboard max hangs as someone with weaker fingers than me, because my fingers are relatively strong naturally.
But if you do or have suffered back problems which stop you climbing your best then there's a lot of long-term health benefits to be gained from doing these types of strengthening routines. (aka - not having a vulnerable fucked back)
It isn't black and white.
:agree:
This is very true.
This is not about climbing ability, or training for such; however if you want to climb, you need to do something about your back.
Like Pete, I’ve had issues (since a Surfing accident in ‘96). Four Epidurals and two surgical interventions. If I stop training core or let my back atrophy (Erector Spinae in particular) then I suffer.
Deadlifts, weighted dorsal raises, toe to bar, windscreen wipers with ankle weights, loads of ring stuff. Never, ever, ever, Sit-ups. Replace with palm to knee crunches and leg raises.
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I don't want to convince anyone to deadlift, because it's like trying to convince someone that they should fall in love, and why. It's a relative risk, but does you so good.
In any case, deadlifting does not mean being stupid and maxing out on 2xBW on your first session.
You can get excellent results just by doing some volume with 1xBW or a little more, greasing the groove and mastering the technique.
Climbers are extremely unbalanced between anterior and posterior chain, and just some new little stimulus is more than enough to sort things out.
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Before you dive in and start cranking out some of the stuff mentioned here could I suggest you look into core engagment and correct form while you perform any of these exercises. Vitally important if you have back issues and don't get it right you'll be exposing your spine to potentially worse issues.
You need you glutes squeezed, pelvis tucked, belly tight and your back must not arch, it's like you're forming a protective barrier around the spine. Watch a few videos, they'll likely be dull but not as dull as being flat out with your back in spasm trying to simply rock your knees from side to side
It's probably easiest to practice in a plank or dish/hollow body before moving on to more complex stuff, see how many times you lose concentration and let something go over the course of a minute, likley quite a few to start with.
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Not gonna do deadlifts, I do appreciate the advice though. It's nice to know these issues can be linked to a weak core.
For anyone interested, I went tonight and did a good bit of rolling which was great, I really focussed on falling well.
I also focused on not cutting loose and pushing extra hard with feet.
Then at the end of the session on a body tension problem, a hold spun and I hit the mats like a sack of shit :slap: 8)
It was fine though as the rest of the session was much less 'impacty'
Thanks all
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Alex didn't you also fuck yourself doing finger training, or was that actually on a route/boulder? The point being you can injure yourself doing pretty much anything, either through misfortune or mistake. Get your point about risk, but.. don't agree really
I find it hard to believe it isn't instinctive for everyone to roll over after jumping down in order to reduce impact on joints.. but then I suppose I just have to think of watching how some people land after jumping down from the stone wall after walking out of the diamond. Like a sack of cement hitting the pavement.. looking at you Luke ;D
That'll be the weight of my ballooned forearms dragging me down after a Diamond sesh ;)
... I don't recall seeing you doing any ninja rolls though :-\
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I have a back condition which flares up every now and again. I've noticed that concentrating on my posture at all times and making sure i regularly carry out exercises which counter act the rounding of the shoulders which is cased by bouldering makes a big difference.
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... I don't recall seeing you doing any ninja rolls though :-\
By their very nature you don't 'see' a ninja roll. :ninja:
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... I don't recall seeing you doing any ninja rolls though :-\
mmmm. i love sushi....
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I don't want to convince anyone to deadlift, because it's like trying to convince someone that they should fall in love
Only from you Lore! :wub:
And yes to everything else you said.
The takeaway from this thread appears to be, if you want to "Train power without ruining your back", .. then train power, and not mileage ;)
Seriously though, remember, training power is not about what you climb (pull, press or whatever) but how you do it. It's about climbing Powerfully! The issues here are a compound of problems falling/jumping off/landing, and possibly not isolating the specifics of what you want to train.
I've found "inverted deadlifts" a great way of working the movement, core, body tension etc without the perhaps more injurious lifting of iron:
https://youtu.be/f-eGkSiY_wk
Not me btw.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D