UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: AndiT on February 19, 2007, 03:15:19 pm
-
I lost my Karma cherry today and recieved a punter point so, now that I've got my balls wet, thought I should jump in the deep end.
I was talking with Somebody's Fool at the weekend about building of patio's beneath highballs. His argument being that it makes them more accessible to the average man. I don't see how this isn't bringing the problem 'down to your level'. I don't have a problem with mats, or padding out the landing with bags and jackets etc but think a line should be drawn at reconstructing the landing of something, especially when it stays like it afterwards. I always thought that the whole idea of pads and stuff was so that we could get away with not having to do stuff like this.
Some Highballs are made so by their landings, not their heights and it is for this reason I think it is a bad thing. I would be upset to see the boulders rolled out of the way or built up to a plateau beneath Ram-Air much as I would to see a pier built out under Paralogism so that it could be well padded.
NB. Not to be taken as an attack on individuals, but it's just a fear of mine that it is the thin end of the wedge and there seems to be happening a lot more now. Sorry.
-
interesting point, well made IMO.
with the state of my ankle / knees / back ( all torn, twisted and or broken) I'm more on the side of the fence of flattening... but what, when and where?? lines would have to drawn. not easy.
i've got a preorder on a ronin air pad (from flashed)... could be the tchenology has improved enough to answer some of the question... we'll see.
-
I'm fairly pro patio within sensible bounds. Probs like the Storm, Flatworld, Brass Monkeys, Super Bock and some of my probs like Fear Full Orange and English Voodoo would be a worse problems for having the landings in their original state IMO. Generally speaking I think if you can move it without breaking stuff and making a mess then it's legit. I know this practice has been going on for years, for obvious reasons people tend not to advertise the fact they do it but that doesn't mean it's new. As good new probs get harder to find it might become more common I suppose, as all probs above flat ground become worked out.
You've only got to look at old patio jobs like the Storm and Brass Monkeys to see that the groundwork rapidly becomes naturalised. The subsequent rockery of blocks and grass being arguably more crag friendly than the bare patches which wear under flat grass landings.
In the case of A Fearful Orange the blocks which I moved to make a paddable landing were there due to the top of the buttress being quarried off in the dim and distant past. Arguably removing the blocks is restoring the landing to it's original state.
The above are very much side justifications to the main one for me, which is one of pure pragmatism. Some things can be padded around, other things can't. A short protectionless arete above a terrible landing will make a poor and neglected headpoint E6, the climbing barely justifying the effort/risk for the first ascentionist (and not justifying the effort/risk for anyone else), but with some arrangement of the landing an excellent boulder problem. In an environment full of mobile blocks of various origins I see the ends as justifying the means. Some bits of rock work better as boulder problems than routes. Who wants to go home with a broken back from a rock that you and your big mate could have moved from arbitary spot A to arbitary spot B, in a matter of seconds.
It's a slightly more contensious issue if the prob was originally done as a route and the landing changed by someone other than the FA. I still think it's ok if the FA approves e.g.The Art Of White Hat Wearing. And to an extent i'd argue that ground up above pads is a ethical step up from headpointing so within reason it's ok for people to do some rock shuffling to make this a viable option.
Obviously it's not a black and white issue and each case needs judging on it's own merits. What is the visual impact, how does it change the climb, is the percieved improvement worth the cost?
I think the current position of people doing a bit of it sensibly here and there and not shouting about it or encouraging others is a pretty good status quo.
Good point well raised though Andi.
-
Good point indeed. Who knows what groundwork has been done in the past that looks perfectly natural now? I thin in a crag environemnt if rocks can be moved by hand to improve a landing, it's for the greater good. On the coast here I have unashamedly used a crowbar in the past to move blocks around to make problems more accessible / climber friendly or in some cases creating one that would have been impossible. Storms seem to rearrange them anyway. Plus it's safer on the fingers.
-
I told you you wouldn't get smited for a decent point well raised. I think Jon's justifications were what I was trying to say to you. As you say though, they still fall under the blanket of 'bringing a climb down to your level'.
After talking about this at the weekend I found myself reconsidering my viewpoint. Adam and myself were pretty gung ho about shifting the TAOWHW block but it did occur to me afterwards that maybe it wasn't our 'right' to do so. Luckily uptowngirl was in favour of what we did but he could have taken offence.
I think my viewpoint now is that with boulder problems it's going to be ok, within reason. After all it's bouldering. No prizes for breaking your legs on a V8 or whatever.
However if somebody has done a route, which could in this day and age be highballed with pads, is it OK to rearrange the landing to facilitate a highball ground up ascent? Someone in the past has stuck their neck out (albeit maybe after toproping) and earned their grade. Now said person could have no complaints about someone doing it ground up above pads without altering the landing. But if the landing is radically altered (as with TAOWHW) then it could detract from that person's achievements. In cases like this it may be worth asking the first ascensionist what they think.
-
As far as bring a route/prob down to your own level goes, I guess that's undeniably true. But in a toss up between moving rocks and pre-toproping I think most often the former gives the route/problem more of a fighting chance. For example I think I would feel safer headpointing Sparrow/My Best Friend The Watermelon then I would bouldering it out regardless of how much groundwork you did, short of filling the valley with with plastic balls, cos with headponiting you don't stick your neck out until you're sure you aren't going to fall off.
-
bonjoy speaking wise words;
i essence i fully agree with this standpoint... crucically FAists must agree to previous headpt routes being flatened for pads... i'd be most surprised if they didnt agree. esp the pre pad routes.
as for nu boulder probs - do it sensibly and do it well - the storm looks near natural to me now.
-
I hear what your saying Bonjoy but I guess concerns remain regarding Andi's thin end of the wedge point.
I was hasty in my last post giving it the thumbs up for all bouldering. There are literally hundreds of established problems in the Peak alone which could be made safer through landing construction. If everyone of these is built up the place could end up looking a mess. When care is taken they can end up looking natural. However many of them probably don't/won't. It's arrogant to suggest that a natural environment, enjoyed by many people other than boulderers, should be rearranged and jigged about to reduce a few fluttery moments here and there.
I admit this may sound a bit rich coming from someone who built one last week, but I've had a bit of an epiphany. Talking to sages from Leek can do that to a man.
-
An issue rightly and well raised Andi - I'd have to respond due to the recent events surrounding TAOWHW.
Its original ascent was pre-headpoint bandwagonism; and was after an abseil clean and a 'proper' pull on the holds on that same abseil rope, purely to justify the attempted solo.
As you'll see in the FA photo, no pads were used and the spotting leaves much to be desired.
I felt then that it was one of the best 'sprint' climbs I'd done on peak grit, and after chatting with Mike Lea at the Foundry that evening about subjective 'numbers' decided to give it E5 6c - 'cos that's what you did!
Sadly since that day it's been totally ignored, and I dare say it would not have received any attention were I not to have publicised it on UKB and offered my acceptance of any potential groundworks.
TAOWHW deserves to be climbed again and again, as Adams praise illustrates.
Let's make sure this doesn't open the floodgates to unlicensed 'groundforce teams' though - each climb / problem on its own merits.
The UKB site has proved its use in effective arbitration - but lets all be sensible and understanding in this.
There are some of my FAs that I would be very annoyed to see landscaped.
-
I'm quite (happily) relieved with these responses, I thought I was going to get slated!
I would add, also that I don't entirely agree that it should be the role of the first ascentionist to decide what happens to problems they made. It should be a general consensus, which I suppose as a general rule of thumb, is to improve on, or atleast stick to, the style of the first ascent. Crow-barring and car jacking are a bit much and I'm sure there can't be many people out there who've done this who haven't had atleast a slight twinge of guilt in doing so.
I think there are a lot of problems/highballs out there which get ignored because they have danger to them, this is the same with routes too but we should perhaps just leave them this way. Is an occasional top rope of a highball going to cause it any more damage than would occur if it had been patioed and had folk clawing up it every weekend?
If a landing can be landscaped, then I imagine it can also be padded, with enough pads. I don't believe there is justification enough in landscaping a problem just so it can be done above one pad, or as part of a circuit. If we can't allow 'Donkey-ticking' how can we justify 'the patio'.
Cheers :wave:
-
Crow-barring and car jacking are a bit much.
- I once got paid by the National Trust to de-scale routes on several Lakeland venues in the name of H&S for walkers underneath.
There consultancy process was certainly not as open as the UKB moderated one, despite their moral highbrowing, and amongst our weapons of choice was the trusty Tirfor!
I also heard about a chainblock somewhere in the peak...
-
i'm good with the no *one pad* landscaping but adamant that if it's been headpointed it's currently a route. the FAist does have a right to see the piece of rock beinmg dramatically changed from thier initial experience... carry on reading before posting back.. please;
if the FAist doesnt want it patioed it should most definately NOT be done.
this will hopefully quell the thin end opf the wedge concerns and keep a tradition of the FAist keeping the route done in the manner someone -once legit at the time, (or a bit dodgy if you r going to raise the pre-practise ethical conundrum) documented the ascent and then got it in a nationally ratified guide.
A comparision in my mind to substantiate my line of argument here is when most retro bolting has taken place on little used limestone death routes for instance, it is the norm to get permission off the FAist is it not?
-
Patioing is the new retrobolting - who'd have thought? Nothing to add really, everyone seems most sensible about the issue. Personally I have nothing against moderate patioing and agree with Bonjoy. Also agree that the FA's wishes should be respected, but there may also be an argument to preserve the original character of the route in some cases, as per retroing.
-
yeah i agree its the nu big issue.
as far as the peak is concerned there are enough interested folk in the pubs that matter and or on forums (esp this one) that would be able to go for a case by case discussion with hopefully representation from all parties.
AndiT, cant believe you though you'd be -ve karmaed for raising this issue.... most of us seem to think it's a real problem that needs to be aired... thanks.
-
I'm sure this topic has come up before, under the more provocative heading of landscaping. My personal opinion is that patio building is much the same as footpath making - with a bit of common sense it's a perfectly acceptable way to allow more people to enjoy a small piece of the world.
Whether a boulder is here or there is all pretty arbitrary. People go on about leaving the world as we find it, and the underlying aim of that ideology is fine, but it can be taken too far. People are part of this world, and we need to interact with it. Throwing stones in the sea, building treehouses, making patios for boulder problems...these are all small things, and unless done to excess are unlikely to damage the ecosystem, or anyone's enjoyment of the outdoors. Sunken ships, concrete bunkers, old quarries...these are far bigger things, but given a chance nature will soon reclaim them.
And in this particular case - patio building - I think the thin end of the wedge argument is always going to remain academic, purely because patio building is bloody hard work and most people would rather find another problem than spend 2 hours trying to shift large boulders. Can anyone think of a patio or altered landing that's really been done badly?
-
I think it's less of a case of the natural beauty being affected and more the change of character of our sport - which is becoming rapidly more sanitized. The landscaping generally looks fine and is in keeping with the natural surroundings but does detract from what the environment is offering us in the way of a challenge, afterall, it's not just physical difficulty that appeals to us in climbing, but also that rush of excitment of doing something a bit necky.
I could, for example, build a plinth below Art Nouveau on the Skyline. This would instantly make the route a boulder problem and as such a fantastic problem for everyone to try, but in the same instance would take away everything which is special about it.
(http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/39450.jpg)
I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it could soon develop into a trend. I've certainly noticed a lot more of it going on.
I'm glad to hear that other people also agree that it is something which needs airing.
Cheers.
-
a slight left turn but some problems wouldn't exist without patioing....
ie adam slater's southern soul in the cuttings boulderfield...
for those who don't know at it a large quantity of choss was pulled out from under an overhanging boulder to expose a great v4 traverse
every so often there's a little avalanche and some clearing of footholds needs doing but it's cool
granted the artifical nature of the boulderfield allows this to pass without too much notice but it was worth noting
as for patioing in general I'm with fatdoc
- do it sensibly and do it well -
and Ru
I have nothing against moderate patioing
Also agree that the FA's wishes should be respected,
-
Darn, missed this thread whilst away last week, suppose I should contribute really
Like anything I think this is a case of moderation. TAOWHW is the first time I've undertaken major landscaping, and it wasn't undertaken lightly. In the past I've been quite scathing about Patios, largely for the reasons Andi outlines below.
I think it's less of a case of the natural beauty being affected and more the change of character of our sport - which is becoming rapidly more sanitized. The landscaping generally looks fine and is in keeping with the natural surroundings but does detract from what the environment is offering us in the way of a challenge, afterall, it's not just physical difficulty that appeals to us in climbing, but also that rush of excitment of doing something a bit necky.
However, having seen some small efforts (The Storm is the real clincher) make a big difference and then be successfully absorbed back into the environment, I changed my mind. I'm still wary of bigger efforts, though seeing the decline of areas like Deliverance have showed 'leaving the environment as it is' isn't always an option either.
I took on TAOWHW with the following considerations in mind:
Firstly, this bit of the crag is a quarry. This makes a big difference in my mind. It also provided lots of raw material for building without more disturbance.
Second, the problem was established with some pre-inspection and to the best of my knowledge had only received one ground-up ascent with the block, by Pete Robbins. I got pretty high with the block but it added such risk as to totally put me off. Without the block it is still necky, most have so far bottled the top move the first time they reached it.
Third, the result is very good. You can enjoy the climbing, fear is still a factor, the ground doesn't look an obvious mess, and will no doubt improve.
It also gives a good trophy problem to a good unfrequented circuit - I think there is value in considering what it will add to the area climbing wise. You now have an area which is well worth a half day visit on its own. With the hammer the eastern edges have been getting the last few seasons I think its good to spread things around.
I could, for example, build a plinth below Art Nouveau on the Skyline. This would instantly make the route a boulder problem and as such a fantastic problem for everyone to try, but in the same instance would take away everything which is special about it.
Firstly, no it wouldn't. It'd still be one of the best sequences on some of the best rock in the world.
You would ruin its character though, a highball perfectly in keeping with all the other short routes thereabouts. I'm not convinced you could just build a plinth either, (without major effort ie spades, helicopter-derived stone carried in from the path above.) Either way I agree it would be bad thing.
I've noticed Staffs is starting to address some of the erosional problems now, some of which (Chalkstorm etc) are probably worse then anything seen in recent years here, though I think that may be cos we went through that in the eighties and they've settled down now. The ground below Narcissus is 18" lower than it was in 1979 - you can still see the stain on the rock - but I digress. The point being sometimes things have to be changed to help them stay as they were.
Finally, how do you compare the intensive gardening down the Churnet with this attitude? I would be much slower to cut a tree down than roll a quarred block over...
-
though I think that may be cos we went through that in the eighties and they've settled down now.
What's with this 'we'. In the 80s weren't you still in short trousers? With a hole in one of the pockets no doubt.
-
I think it would be fair to say when we go bouldering we are motivated by the quality of the climbing, not the neckyness of the landing. people can go on about bad landings adding character etc etc if they want to be heros, but most people want to boulder and not die as a result.
As for landscaping the landing on "routes", you have to firstly decide is it a route because of the seriousness of it, or is it a route simply because the first ascent was done before the days of mats. I would have thought that most routes would still stay as routes even with a reasonable amount of landscaping - for example you're not going to be able to roll the odd block and suddenly make jasmine, peice of mind or meshuga a boulder problem. If its really a boulder problem/highball like TAOWHW then i say go nuts (obvisouly there may sitll be grey areas....).
A final note i'm always puzzled when people seek the approval of the first ascentionist for stuff like this (or rebolting sport routes etc). Nothing against anyone involved in the TAOWHW saga but i've always been of the thinking that no-one owns a particular bit of rock or problem, regardless of if they were the FA or not. I still have the rather quaint pseudo-communist ideal that the rock and climbing belongs to everyone. i don't think first ascentionists have any providence over a route/problem, seems nonsensical to me. Years down the line when uptown dies (sorry to be morbid) does the guardianship of TAOWHW pass to his next of kin? does it pass to pete robbins? food for thought maybe, and probably a bit off topic.
-
The first ascensionist can often have strong emotional ties with routes or boulder problems. I wasn't suggesting that it's an unforgivable sin to alter the landing of a route, just that it might be polite to see what people think. In such a small community it's not very hard to make an effort to contact people.
You're right that no-one should own rocks. However people give a part of themselves to complete a route. Rock only becomes a route because of human endeavours and I think this endeavour deserves some respect. Even more so with retrobolting than patio building.
-
Years down the line when uptown dies (sorry to be morbid) does the guardianship of TAOWHW pass to his next of kin? does it pass to pete robbins?
I'd have thought it would be passed on to the next leading exponent of the White Hat Art. Perhaps Le chef suédois?? A safe pair of hands i'm sure you'll agree.
(http://www.sweden.se/upload/young_swedes/postcard/postcard_1.jpg)
-
I think it would be fair to say when we go bouldering we are motivated by the quality of the climbing, not the neckyness of the landing. people can go on about bad landings adding character etc etc if they want to be heros, but most people want to boulder and not die as a result.
:agree:
-
The first ascensionist can often have strong emotional ties with routes or boulder problems.
Rock only becomes a route because of human endeavours and I think this endeavour deserves some respect.
Knocked the nail right on the head twice there SF - There's a very fluid social history to gritstone climbing and we must never presume our present scene is the be all and end all.
Respect has a huge role to play - I have it for many irrespective of their UKB involvement, and Karma aside, feel a lot more motivated in cherishing our sport if this is reciprocal.
-
I think it would be fair to say when we go bouldering we are motivated by the quality of the climbing, not the neckyness of the landing. people can go on about bad landings adding character etc etc if they want to be heros, but most people want to boulder and not die as a result.
:agree:
Most people on UKB perhaps, but there are plenty of other climbers who still cherish the challenge of overcoming the inherrant risk, more than the technical difficulty. I've plenty of times found myself in a position of retreat thinking how great a problem would be if 'that block' wasn't there, however I can't say I've ever considered changing the ground. I would class that as lessening the challenge, much in the way that having piles of mats does. The beauty there however being that we can carry our pads away and leave the problem how nature intended it to be, necky.
JB, I can fully see from your perspective about it being in a quarry, and have to agree on that side of things. But you must also conceed that you daren't do it before you moved the ground around and that you wouldn't be able to put it back to how it was now, you brought it to your comfort level, shame on you.
Hey, and whats all this cutting trees down shit! I've never done that, I've removed rhodendendrons, but as I was informed they are some sort of parasite and removal is actively encouraged.
Finally, JB, this isn't a personal dig and not even aimed at TAOWHW or what you did there, just a general thread about landscaping to vent my opinion as I don't like it. I hope you see it this way dude, and I still want that print btw :kiss2:
-
Good debate, good views. I like dave's route/problem distinction and SF's rock/route distinction.
-
I've removed rhodendendrons, but as I was informed they are some sort of parasite and removal is actively encouraged.
Word. Make sure they aren't the only example of the species before you rag any more rhodendendrons out.
-
Rhodedendrons.
-
Rhododendrons.
-
My bible: http://www.thegardenhelper.com/Rhody.htm (http://www.thegardenhelper.com/Rhody.htm)
-
My bible
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/1843306778.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Joke BTW. I'm not that much of a rampant patio advocate
-
JB, I can fully see from your perspective about it being in a quarry, and have to agree on that side of things. But you must also conceed that you daren't do it before you moved the ground around and that you wouldn't be able to put it back to how it was now, you brought it to your comfort level, shame on you.
I not convinced you can say this without having seen the problem before or after. If you still want to court broken ankles just don't take any pads. Granted the risk of death will be less but I look forward to seeing you static on the crux, 'not scared at all'
Hey, and whats all this cutting trees down shit! I've never done that, I've removed rhodendendrons, but as I was informed they are some sort of parasite and removal is actively encouraged.
I wouldn't call them a parasite, they are an invasive alien though. The point is you've been quite happy to alter the crag environment in other ways, why put dangerous rocks on a pedestal?
Finally, JB, this isn't a personal dig and not even aimed at TAOWHW or what you did there, just a general thread about landscaping to vent my opinion as I don't like it. I hope you see it this way dude,
Of course. It is the 'case in point' though? I enjoy a good debate. Along similar lines, what do you think should be done with the lower tier erosion? Nowt?
and I still want that print btw
Shit, sorry dude I'll get it in the post.
-
Your bible:(http://images.picsearch.com/is?xjhvdrDObN0egLSPvjaa1mH0nmMDmyM4ndY6_-U5oJM)
JB, that's my point in case. I would just leave it if I thought I was going to die, I wouldn't alter it to make it part of a circuit. Think how crap Doris would be if I went around and stuck all the holds on nice and secure...well maybe..
As for the Lower Tier erosion? Is it a massive problem, I'd argue that it is the footpaths more than the landing zones which are becoming most eroded, bar a few areas. I would suggest voluntary bans on areas to allow recovery as opposed to Bonny Brownboy Earth Movers corp moving in ;)
Did you get my message about my change of address BTW? I'll message you again.
-
.... leave.... how nature intended ....
This expression is a bit of a pet hate of mine and I'd have to take issue. In the UK virtually nothing is truly 'as nature intended'. Quarrying, deforestation, agriculture, game keeping etc have long ago seen to that. Does 'leave as nature intended' mean that everywhere should be left unmanaged and allowed to revert to forest, this is as close to a meaningful definition of the phrase as I can think of? In truth most people who say this actually like the countryside the way it is and don't want a return to the wildwood. In order to maintain what is in fact actually a transitional landscape it is entirely necessary to actively manage. Go out for a day with a conservation volunteer group and you'll find much of the time is spent chopping down plants. Likewise if some arbitrary quarrying activity has dump a pile of aggregate at the bottom of a problem, why not move it? You'd move it if the council had dumped it there in the last week or two. OK, it has naturalised and blended with it's surroundings. The fact is that when you move the rocks they will rapidly naturalise in their new location. You may destroy the home for a worm under the problem, but you are creating a nest for a shrew under the nearby tree. Crags are dynamic environments and if low key management such as vegetation clearance and patioing is done in a sensible mindful manner it it has every chance of maintaining or even improving the habitat value of a crag.
-
Think how crap Doris would be if I went around and stuck all the holds on nice and secure...well maybe..
wow. let me know when you do, I'll be straight down. That line to the R of Bobok would be just right if it was solid.
I enjoyed doing Bobok with Will "I am safe Ben just don't fall off seconding" and when reaching him finding a 15 piece belay all of which was shit...
-
15 piece belay, is he mad! Quality crag, made by the fact that it is soooo Death. You'll be the first to know when I get a glue stick big enough to set to work!
You know that I agree with that Bonjoy.
What I don't agree with is the changing of the nature of a problem, something which was once scary and dangerous, now is much less so. That change has been done by altering the environment. Whether it's deemed a boulder problem or route or something inbetween doesn't matter, it's just its nature. I'm not talking about kicking a pebble out of the way which might twist an ankle, I'm talking about heaving big rocks around, forceful stuff, you know what I mean.
I worry due to a 'thin end of the wedge' type syndrome. I'm sure the case in point TAOWHW is a much better problem now and is in some dingy man made quarry and not worth going to before but is now blah blah... but who decides the line between doing that and doing the same to RamAir, that's certainly not a one mat problem and those boulders would shift.... Also if it's such a manmade hell hole, what's the problem with bolting millstone or chipping a few more holds on Snivelling, nothing? We aren't really talking about environmental concerns here, as there isn't one really, there is just a climbers ethical concern.
I don't like the hypocracy which breeds amongst climbers. The same ones who attack the Headpointers, guffaw at those who use 'cheat stones' or start a move at a speed which looks any quicker than a space shuttle leaving earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
The case in point shouldn't be the case in point, the case in point should be 'how can we see how this may develop'. TAOWHW was an E5, now it isn't and we have forever been robbed of that.
-
I'd wager it's still E5 without pads. Not that that negates your point.
The thing is, OK something is lost, but something is gained. I think anyone who did the prob/route would say the gain is greater than the loss. The peak has many leg breaker E5s that rarely if ever get done ground up, it doesn't have that many superb 7b+ highballs.
As far as 'the thin end of the wedge' goes. I think the diverse history of climbing in the UK is testament to the fact that the 'thin end of the wedge' rarely leads to the thick end and that as a community we are very good at policing ourselves.
Realistically the number of problems or routes which can be transformed as easily and effectively as TAOWHW is very small. To stretch the metaphor, the wedge will never be very big regardless of how far in it is pushed.
I don't like the hypocrisy which breeds among climbers. The same ones who attack the Headpointers, guffaw at those who use 'cheat stones' or start a move at a speed which looks any quicker than a space shuttle leaving earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
Headpointing doesn't appeal to me but I don't attack people who do it, verbally or otherwise. I don't think people like myself who have patio-ed stuff don't expect a reaction. I'm happy to debate the subject. It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.
-
earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.
That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing. :wall:
Pol Pot 'Thankyou all nations for raising the subject which will allow genocide to continue and yet not get out of hand', yeah, he actually said that :whistle:
-
but who decides the line between doing that and doing the same to RamAir, that's certainly not a one mat problem and those boulders would shift....
Well for starters RamAir is hardly a highball, two or three pads and its not dangerous. Also those boulders are nicely embedded in turf, not sat on a balanced on a good landing.
I'm not talking about kicking a pebble out of the way which might twist an ankle,
So at what size rock would you stop? What about the landing underneath The Block at Black Rocks? A collapsed old wall that made Jumpin E7. Over the years the boulders have gradually been shifted and now its highball V8. Is this a tragic loss of an E7 or a better route for it.
Personally I think you shouldn't get bogged down in grades, or definitions of route, highball or boulder. The essence of the sport is to climb from the bottom to the top with the minimum of artificiality or contrivances. For me moving the odd rock is less of a contrivance than pre-practice.
I don't like the hypocracy which breeds amongst climbers.
TAOWHW was an E5, now it isn't and we have forever been robbed of that.
I think your own 'routes better than boulders' prejudice is coming out here. Trust me, no one has been robbed of an experience here. As I said, you climb it without pads and tell me you're not scared first, then pontificate about the grade...
That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing
Well did you really think raising your point of view would lead to an immediate cessation of patioing? Your points are valid, but I think most people who have patioed will have considered the issues already within themselves and come to their own compromise.
-
Quote from: Bonjoy on Today at 12:37:50 PM
Quote
earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.
That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing.
Obviously it's not up to either of us to make the final decision on other peoples actions. I was just saying what I thought the likely consequence of the debate would be. If by raising the subject you moderate the level of the activity and make people think more before doing something I wouldn't say your point was counting for nothing.
-
The difference being that in doing nothing myself, I am not seen as taking as a standpoint. JB, I have considered moving boulders, but then thought better of it. In doing nothing I am supporting my cause, but not upsetting yours, in you moving boulders, you're supporting your cause but defeating mine. I've spoken to Somebody's Fool, and the consideration given to moving boulders is hardly one which is greatly considered first, it seems to me to be more of a ' do you think this'll be better if we trundle that boulder out of the way', 'yes', 'ok, let's do it'.
As for the thin end of the wedge not expanding... well the whole reason I raised the point is that I have seen a dramatic increase in it. Otherwise, the odd bit, here and there, wouldn't have warranted me being a bit upset about it. I always thought those patios beneath Myles' routes at Gardoms were a bit much (A Tribute to Joe Brown?) as they clearly altered the challenge in the route, which was partly determined by the landing. Has El Mocho's Cratcliffe problem had a rumoured seeing too aswell?
I have a LOT of respect for many of the climbers on this site, BonJoy and Johnny Brown being well up there, both climbers being ones who I knew of, before I knew them because of their talents. I'm sure there are many impressionable climbers out there who would look up to you also as I always have. I would hate them to get the attitude that it's alright for them, it's alright for me.
This isn't like bolting which requires knowledge and equipment before embarking, just strong arms and a parquet vision, I'm sure if bolting was as easy as patioing, then we'd have a lot more unwanted ones adorning our precious cliffs. There are big changes occuring in bouldering at the moment, it is a activity which is rocketing in popularity, it could easily have a grim affect on many of our climbing areas.
JB, I've given it some thought. I think tarmac would be good on the Roaches Lower Tier :P
-
The peak has many leg breaker E5s that rarely if ever get done ground up, it doesn't have that many superb 7b+ highballs.
I think this is the key point. A classic highball 7b+ is ultimately more valuable to us than a micro route with a nasty landing. This is arguably disrespectful to the first ascenscionist, but in the end it is for the best. I actually think the same thing should apply to retro bolting too. In the Dinorwig slate quarries there are lots of sparsely equipped routes that have slowly been gathering dust since they were first done 20 years ago. These are not great routes (and mostly were only done with such a dearth of pro because the equipper was a skint dole boy at the time), but they would make good and popular sport routes. Everybody knows what the classic runout routes are, they are not in any danger of being retroed (I for one would be against such a move).
-
I have a LOT of respect for many of the climbers on this site, BonJoy and Johnny Brown being well up there, both climbers being ones who I knew of, before I knew them because of their talents. I'm sure there are many impressionable climbers out there who would look up to you also as I always have. I would hate them to get the attitude that it's alright for them, it's alright for me.
Unfortunately that's the downside of raising the subject publically. Patioing especially where it's weathered in is not always obvious to the untutored eye and i'm sure many people who are now patio savvy may not have been otherwise. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been raised,but it is the case that part of the reason i've never trumpeted my own patio efforts is the concern that someone might take the idea too far. On balance though I still think it's a debate worth having.
Has it got more common, or have you just become more aware of it and in a position to hear about stuff you wouldn't otherwise notice? I could list a fair bit of landscaping going back a long time and I assume there's plenty I don't know about.
-
I've spoken to Somebody's Fool, and the consideration given to moving boulders is hardly one which is greatly considered first, it seems to me to be more of a ' do you think this'll be better if we trundle that boulder out of the way', 'yes', 'ok, let's do it'.
Don't assume a fool knows what has gone on in my head beforehand.
I always thought those patios beneath Myles' routes at Gardoms were a bit much
Not sure what you mean, I presume Super-bloc at Moorside? If that's right, then the landing before was a drystone wall, it is now a slightly different pile of man-made stones.
Has El Mocho's Cratcliffe problem had a rumoured seeing too aswell?
El Mocho's cratcliffe problem has had its landing altered by piling a load of branches in a crevasse. No stones were moved or added. Which side of your ethical line does this fall?
I think your comparisons to bolting and chipping are specious. Ultimately these are purely ethical considerations for climbers, not environmental issues. However landings affect both. In all cases I've seen altering landings has had either none or and improved effect on the immediate environment. On the climbing/ ethical side they tend to encourage (usually they are in fact designed for the sole purpose of) improving the ethical style of ascent.
Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate building patios for the vast majority of problems. A good rule I think is if a problem is established (like Ram-air) it should NOT be considered UNLESS the landing is detiorating and patioing would improve the situation. Your approach of no, never is a emotional knee-jerk that doesn't stand up to real-life situations.
PS Agree entirely with BJ's points above.
-
It seems to me Andi, that you're bringing a rigid standpoint to this debate. This is perfectly valid. However it is not going to change people's minds at the click of your fingers. This is not the Fulford High School Debating Society anymore. And your mighty intellect is not going to reduce the opposition to clapping and braying like seals.
What you're saying is 'right'. What the pro-patio lobby says could also be construed as 'right'. Difference in opinion is one of the obstacles human beings face (vis-a-vis the Iraq situation). However, as Groove Armada once said, if everybody thought the same we'd get bored of talking to each other.
As someone familiar with both the Staffs 'No' scene and the Sheffield 'Aye' scene, I would be more than happy to provide a professional mediation service. At a knockdown price of £50 an hour.
Just don't tell those cunts at the Job Centre
-
I thought a while ago you yourself JB mentioned someone else's conspicuous Patio building under or near (or in the same sentence as) Font 6bs at Moorside.
Isn't that where it's a bad thing, where you're depriving someone else of a wilderness experience. Hold the lecture, I know full well it's not really a wilderness, but just occasionally you like to go somewhere where it doesn't feel like 1000s of boulderers from all over the world have been before, and that's the important thing. I guess there're always going to be such places, even in the Peak, but strangely I'd always thought of Moorside as one of them (having never been there - QED).
There seems to be a bit of an assumption going on about how the majority operate (with pads) and that noone else does anything different. There's definitely an older guard around (who I don't really `get' sometimes), whose harder routes that they headpointed pre-pads I elitistly suggest are the ones we're interesting in padding out, and have concluded may patio to death legitimately. They did do shit loads of the easier problems just as they found them though. Even amongst boulderers, we don't all, or don't always, go out and look for projects. The circuit style of climbing is what a lot of people do, and (though I would in the peak) you don't necessarily have to hump a pad round with you all day.
Our local bouldering circuit's landing needed to be cleared of blocks when the `classic' VD above kept shedding them from it's crux (and belay!). I also shift smaller looser ones off normal routes if I can do so in control (without braining my belayer) and stop someone else hurting themselves with them, and recently I rip off as much Ivy, Brambles, and Red Valerian as I can be bothered with. We'll lose good routes to them otherwise (a lot grow in holds and gear slots). I'm tempted to rip out grass and nettles too, but I don't know if this is obviously as good a thing - they aren't as much of a problem.
In the Forest Of Dean, they've built landings out of sticks and `piles of leaves ("the local speciality"). Using all that shit's fine, it's only going to rot away anyway. Shifting one particular big rock there would change an E9 project into an E7/8 one though. That's kind of how the challenge has been left for others, so it seems frivolous to shift that one, there're enough other great routes of those grades as it is. It's rocks that are the issue.
On a route, especially microroutes, the ground is part of the route. It's a factor in your head, while you are on a head route. For me the difference is you're willing to take a fall off a highball, but not so much a route, and it sounds like this is exactly what's being changed. I hope I'm wrong.
P.S. Does someone want to tell me what TAOWHW is to save me looking it up, or are Acronyms our latest attempt to stop Mick Ryan turning everything into a news item?
-
This would never have been raised had you not 'puntered' me!
Perhaps they are both stand-point arguments. This is what I see as a shame, because in that case I can't 'win' so to speak. You'll keep patio-ing and I'll keep grumbling about it. I can't go smashing up the patio's can I, or I'll be doing the same as the perps!
It's not a Staffs 'No', it's an Andi 'No'. Andi V Sheffield, I always wanted this day to come. JB, bear in mind your pm referred only to things that Shaz has done and he has done lots of bad things....
Again it's not the environmental issue, it's the making it easier/safer thing which narks me. I just think things should be left like they are, you can always hire the big pad from the wall if you're that bothered and I can always borrow a 'death mat 2000' and make Tierdrop into an E7.
Paz, cheers for appreciating my point of view.
-
reviewed post cos abused paz & AndiT. have realised they have enough on their plate already.
i've made patio's and enjoyed every minute of it
-
Paz - If you read the whole thread you'll see what TAOWHW stands for and find most of the points you make addressed in great detail.
Hold the lecture, I know full well it's not really a wilderness, but just occasionally you like to go somewhere where it doesn't feel like 1000s of boulderers from all over the world have been before, and that's the important thing. I guess there're always going to be such places, even in the Peak, but strangely I'd always thought of Moorside as one of them (having never been there - QED).
Moorside has never been particularly wilderness like and I don't think the minor re-arrangement of a drystone wall and the ensuing rush of climbers vying to boulder out the highball 8a/8a+ above will change the place one iota. It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are.
* TAOWHW stands for The Art Of White Hat Wearing
-
Did read the thread, just missed the `The'.
I know BJ - I'm basically a bit ignorant about the specifics so put my stance down as `concerned individual' who advises restraint.
If you came across a problem for the first time and found someone had made a nice landing for you you'd be happy, but if you revisited something after a number of years and found somebody had fucked about with it then some of us might feel peeved.
Dense - bring it on!
-
it did say something along the lines of "why use one paragraph to make a point when you can use half a page to throw people off it" and i did send you a kiss :kiss1:
-
Dense I have missed your succint genius. You have summed up PAz's entire internet schtick in one line.
It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are
I think this sums up the entire debate.
-
So whats next? Whos gonna be the first to publicly attack cairns and cairn builders?
Bloody hippy's messing the place up
-
i've made patio's and enjoyed every minute of it
You're right there cock. There's nothing quite like the giddy thrill of carrying out substandard building work at wildly inflated prices.
-
So whats next? Whos gonna be the first to publicly attack cairns and cairn builders?
Bloody hippy's messing the place up
Damn straight, Kick a Cairn, Punch a Patio.........ist.
-
sf i don't give out +ve karma easily. you've earnt it
-
It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are
I think this sums up the entire debate.
Boulderers being wimpy and making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.
Patios don't look bad and they serve a purpose, but they do change the nature of the problem/route. This also sums it up.
As a boulderer you're unlikely to see any bad points, much as sport climbers see little problem with bolts.
-
Jeez, 3 pages in and I've only just read your signature. I've done, have you?
perfectly fine necky highballs
Before you start bandying these phrases about you should really think about doing some of the problems in question.
Your labelling of me as a boulderer speaks volumes too!
-
Boulderers being wimpy and making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.
Sozard, maybe we should all be real men like you. Us filthy boulderers aren't fit to lick the shit off your shoe O mighty route climber, who has no doubt never sullied himself by climbing a mere trivial boulder problem, pure as the driven snow, a far cry from us sordid lepers not fit to breath god's clean air. and don't get me started on those bloody sport climbers. (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=26402)
Its just a shame I can't find a smiley for arrogant, self-richeous and hypocritical. Or maybe I've just found one :wank:
I appologise if the above sounds arsey (its meant to be), or if andi is somehow meaning to be ironic.
-
Hey, I love bouldering, and routes (trad and sport) so don't get me wrong.
I don't see why anyone thinks they are in the position to 'make' something into a boulder problem, when it was, by it's very a nature, a high-ball. That's all. I believe I'm in a position to question this, you however aren't in a position to label me a w**ker because of it.
I don't know what Sozard means.
-
Your labelling of me as a boulderer speaks volumes too!
Sorry does this offend you?
-
I'm prefectly entitled to label you a :wank: just as much as you are to label people as "boulderers", or indeed "boulderers" as wimpy whenit come across in the pejorative sense which in my reading of your post it was. However as a token of appeasement I'm happy to retract the :wank: if i can stick with arrogant, self-richeous and hypocritical. Not that you're in any position to call the kettle black when it comes to labelling of course. :-\
-
That makes no sense. I'm calling them boulderers because they are! I'm a boulderer too, I'm not a wanker. Self righteous perhaps but it's a point of view and a valid one.
Many years ago when pads first came out, the old school would guffaw at them as it wasn't the way, and was a bit 'girlie' in their eyes as they limped around with their knackered ankles and knees, but at the end of the day, there were plenty of good reasons for mats, physically and environmentally. In addition if you didn't want to a problem or highball without a pad for the 'full experience' you could.
If the landing has been changed you can't do this.
Dave, I'm not trying to be ironic or sarcastic, it's just what I believe. You have offended me with your posts and it's not what I was looking for from starting this thread. If you think I'm an arse when you meet me, please tell me then face to face and we can discuss your view further.
I will conceed that in the case of the moving bits and bobs in a quarry is different ball game to heaving more natural boulders around but I would add that is what this thread is about, so we can come sort of agreement of what is right and wrong. Perhaps nothing too terrible has happened yet, but this doesn't mean that it is not about to with established problems as people take this 'patio ethic' to them.
-
just to throw another concept into the mix here.... not antagonist to any on the thread at all...
wait for the air pads from flashed -- they will be shite, or change the sport as much as the invention of the pad did, maybe more....
the sport could well be a changin...........
IMO of course...
-
I tried being succinct before, but it just didn't suit me.
Sozzard = abreviation for "Sorry hard." Normally sarcastic.
Hard, noun, e.g. as in `person good at fighting'.
Now can you two stop it?
Back on topic - are these the types of problems fiend sometimes refers to (or used to) onsighting without pads deserving E-grades. Is that a point - that if noone onsights them then we should patio them.
-
Fatdoc: I think they sound like a great idea and they won't have a permanent affect on subsequent ascents. A good solution.
-
That makes no sense. I'm calling them boulderers because they are! I'm a boulderer too, I'm not a wanker. Self righteous perhaps but it's a point of view and a valid one.
You can't make a derogatory statement like "Boulderers being wimpy...blah blah blah" and then make out the use of "boulderer" there was merely a technical term denoting a person who engages in bouldering. The context for that statement was clear and is what I (and probably others) take exception to. It'd be a bit like me calling you a wanker (clearly in the pejorative) only to try and backpedal and imply that the term was used simply to denote an individual who has indulged in onanism (which I’m guessing you almost certainly will have unless you're in an extreme minority or are a monk), and to say "hey we all do it right guys? no offence". I don't see how you can assert that boulderers are wimpy or somehow lesser climbers when there’s a substantial portion of us have years of trad background and done pretty dangerous routes (or all grades) one way or another. If I’ve offended you well all I can say is I don't post on threads like this to win any popularity contests. God forbid I should offend anyone. This isn't "personal", I can only go on what I read here. If I went on say a sportclimber's forum and implied that sport climbers were wimpy/cowards without a hint of a joke or irony then I would expect to get worse than :wank:. If you don't want to be engaged in banter and a bit of lighthearted flippant emoticon use then this isn't the forum to frequent. its not as if I called you a paedophile or accused you of assassinating JFK or anything worth losing sleep over.
It seems plainly obvious to me that the whole patio debate is not as simple as black and white, its many shades of grey. This maybe irritating to discover as it means you can't quickly sum it up in an easily digestible soundbite. It would be remiss to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand, stand on one side and deride everyone stood on the other. Seems a bit pointless to talk about reducing the natural challenge and making stuff easier, unless you're going to only climb uncleaned unchalked problems barefoot without chalk, and without consulting a guidebook first. What if it turned out that nick longland had trundled a couple of dodgy blocks out from under tierdrop, would that make it less of a classic because the landing had been sullied by man's hand? Would we mourn the loss of a dirty seldom climbed E7? I doubt it. A route doesn’t automatically outrank a boulder problem in the pecking order, it should be based on quality.
Paz's point about things that havent been ground-upped is a interesting one.
-
It is a grey area and that is why it is being discussed.
Boulderers being wimpy... yes that is what is happening when they make a highball, in the case in point an E5 6c with a bad landing which had been climbed ground up, into a bouder problem which has now been climbed by many. It isn't what it was. Even if it is E4 now without mats, it still isn't what it was.
This seems to be turning into an argument about the merits of patioing TAOWHW, which was not my original context. The purpose was to draw a line between what is acceptable and what isn't. You aren't helping matters being derogatory in a completely different manner. Calling someone a boulderer (wimpy or not) is not the same as calling someone a wanker. Hence why I became/am offended.
If you don't have something valid to say, don't say it. Or atleast if you can't say something in a productive manner, don't bother.
I don't come onto forums to join the bandwagon, gain popularity or anything else which you have misconstrued as an idea for why I might. I've posted to find a response to something which I see as unacceptable and to draw some conclusion as to what would be the best course of action. :yawn:
-
It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are
I think this sums up the entire debate.
making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.
i fear TAOWHWAOWHWOAHOWWHAWOWHW would have been destined for obscurity otherwise. a shame.
-
Perhaps it would be useful at this point to draw some conclusions from all this fist waving:
1. The rearrangement of quarry floors is acceptable as it is man made and was just how he left it. This also applies to Beach boudering as the sea could have moved stuff (Porth Ysgo being a prime examlpe).
2. Moving natural boulders is not allowed as this is how Ron intended it to be (the back of the Pebble could prove a good example).
3. Use of tools is deemed unsporting and a sign of weakness (Car Jacks, Crow Bars or 'Sozzard Dave')
4. The style of the first ascent is very important in determining whether the floor needs a patio, improvement in style being the paramount concern (perhaps where most disagreement stemmed from). I still disagree with this one as I feel that a quick recce on a rope is much less detrimental than moving the ground around.
5. Branches twigs and leaves are in, when it comes to padding a landing as long as they are 'deadwood'.
6. If you don't say anything about it, over time no-one will know anyway :whistle:
I still don't feel great about this as I feel it's a small posse of people deciding what is best for everyone i.e. what is an obscure problem and what the future wants (that's how I see it anyway), despite the fact that it is a generally irreversable process. However, I hope I've made my point and I only feel it's a shame that the antithesis couldn't be true in which I could find a supposedly obscure boulder problem, sink a few nasty boulders beneath it and make a perfectly good 'necky highball'. Still, life goes on..
Cheers.
-
I've just got back from my holidays and treated myself to a long session boning up on UKB on what's been going down. Oh dear. Instead of inspirational news I have to wade through 4 pages of waffle about patios :yawn:
Choose from the following well known phrases which one suits best:
a) Get a sense of perspective.
b) Storm in a teacup.
c) Ripple in a eggcup.
d) Slightly agitated brownian motion in a dewdrop.
e) What the fuck.
This will never ever be a problem until the first stop on the way to the crag is Hartley Hire.
-
many years ago on discovering a new line but was unable to reach the first holds.i pulled back the heather at the bottom of the route and wedged a boulder in and did various landscaping to make it look natural.am i right in thinking this might be frowned upon now.
-
OK, so you've established what a few boulderers / climbers think about it. Now perhaps we should be considering what a park ranger or joe public would say at the sight of an apparently very muscular, blonde young lady rolling big rocks around to make a flat spot for her mattress.
The Eagle Tor thread shows it doesn't make one bit of difference what we think if Freda at The Farm comes to the conclusion we don't have respect.
-
am i right in thinking this might be frowned upon now.
No. But if you'd changed the character of the problem/route then yes.
I'm running out of things to say about this now and seem to be getting less in the way of useful responses.
If you wanna keep patioing then just do it because you obviously don't give two hoots about what some other people might think. If the holds are too sharp on your project, just file them down, it'll make it a better route after all. Wire brushes are cool. Headpointing is well gay. Crouching starts aren't worth the effort, your bum has to be on the floor. Donkey ticks are really useful. People that climb indoors are idiots, people that climb outdoors are weak. Problems in the School count and can be used for grading other problems against. Font grades are useless unless in the forest, V grades are great, English grades even better......
Storm in a teacup, perhaps. But it's a cup of tea we all need to share.
Lowlife: Thankyou.
-
This is all getting rather tedious now. Hasn't everything sensible already been said?
The Eagle Tor thread shows it doesn't make one bit of difference what we think if Freda at The Farm comes to the conclusion we don't have respect.
Obviusly if people do something stupid in a sensitive place there will be consequences, this is far from unique to moving rocks. Careful consideration, think before you act blah blah blah....We are not children, do we need to always state the bleeding obvious over and over again?
The problem at Eagle tor seems to have been caused in part by people shitting at the crag. From a landowners perspective I imagine this is far more likely to be a problem than visitors making adjustments to the positions of what to them are most likely insignificant lumps of stone.
Andi - Not to slight your rules but i'll be continuing to judge each case on an individual basis.
-
lowlife that's a good analogy. perhaps she is more worried about the cheat stone on feel good being moved rather than her kids being exposed to the sight of a half naked strong blond girl peeing standing up :whistle:
AndiT your ramblings are amazing. i've only done a few patio jobs but i'm now more psyched to do more. yes moving a dodgy little boulder is tantamount to chipping and filing off holds, yes, yes quite right. thin end of the wedge and all that.
-
Andi - Not to slight your rules but i'll be continuing to judge each case on an individual basis.
They aren't rules, just what I'd gleaned as guidelines.
Bonjoy, asI said before, just do what you want to do, but remember whatever you do, it can't be reversed, so judge each case VERY carefully, not just on how much you and your mates want to do the problem or how you perceive what the future of climbing holds for a particular line. You're a sensible and intelligent guy, indeed a leafy gent, but please give some consideration for what others, not just those on this forum may want. Remember that a bad landing CAN be made safe with enough pads/spotters/rucksacks etc, whereas a route which once had a bad landing and was graded so because of this, can't be restored once it's been altered. You know that Freda would also be pissed off to see people lumping boulders around.
Another nail in the coffin for the forum of discussion, as after all this ranting nothing has changed apart from people perhaps thinking of me as a bit of an arse for stating something which I believe in. Great. :wave:
Dense: The argument is that it causes no environmental damage and improves the quality of the climbing on offer, filing sharp edges off holds does the same, but you wouldn't do that would you. I hope you break a nail when patioing.
-
Nige sums it up best for me. However:
I would like to know which particular patio offended you Andi and caused this stupid 4 page thread.
-
And show me the man who doesn't give it some serious thought before taking a dump in public :lol:
The agonising may take place before, during, and in some cases long after.
-
Another nail in the coffin for the forum of discussion, as after all this ranting nothing has changed
Not so. I've read this thread with interest and have taken on board the opinions of all that have posted as most people have said at least something valid at some point. I'd reckon that a lot of other users will have done the same. Like so may issues, there is no right or wrong, black or white answer, but discussion can help the majority form a view and hence affect the way people act in future. I certainly don't think this thread is going to encourage people to go out and create more patios but I do think that people will think a little more before creating them. Consensus certainly suggests that no-one wants them all over the place under every slightly dodgy landing and I would expect that many people will now consider that there is an ethical (for some people and therefore to be considered by all people) side to them that may have been ignored previously.
this stupid 4 page thread.
I wouldn't say it's all stupid. After all, there clearly is an ethical side to the issue for many people and therefore it's worth discussing, if only to allow people to hear the views of others.
The Eagle Tor thread shows it doesn't make one bit of difference what we think if Freda at The Farm comes to the conclusion we don't have respect.
Exactly. We've got to remember that we're not the only people with an interest in the land/rocks that we play on. (shit, that sounds a bit trite. Forgive me).
-
I would like to know which particular patio offended you Andi and caused this stupid 4 page thread.
The Jordaches'
-
Andi, I still feel you are pontificating from a theoretical standpoint derived from gut feelings. As I said, I used to share your opinions however experience in real situations has changed my mind.
Lots of routes change character due to erosion at their base. Is this human-induced change acceptable to you simply because it is without intent?
If the change could have been prevented by some forward-thinking patioing, can't this justify it?
If branches are in, are logs? Have you seen some of the swiss/ font landings constructed from tree trunks? As a geologist, I don't see cobble-sized rocks much different to branches, the lifespan is not vastly different.
-
JB, it's the whole 'change' thing that gets me. Like when the Doxey Pool left hand boulders got drained, that was like patio-ing in a way.
You know what I'm arguing about, and it's not little bits here and there it is a principle thing. You know what I mean and I think you agree really.
-
I understand, I just think its unrealistic. Unfortunately when you get down to it the real world is all made up of little bits here and there.
Plus, as I keep saying, I've seen far too many trashed landings recently. I keep starting to type that perhaps you/ Staffs has escaped this, then I remember the lower tier. How much has the pocket slab landing changed since you first climbed it? What's going to happen to it in another ten years? Basically I think a blanket policy of inaction is for ostriches. Change is the natural state of things, sometimes you have to usher it in the right direction.
-
I understand, I just think its unrealistic. Unfortunately when you get down to it the real world is all made up of little bits here and there.
Plus, as I keep saying, I've seen far too many trashed landings recently. I keep starting to type that perhaps you/ Staffs has escaped this, then I remember the lower tier. How much has the pocket slab landing changed since you first climbed it? What's going to happen to it in another ten years? Basically I think a blanket policy of inaction is for ostriches. Change is the natural state of things, sometimes you have to usher it in the right direction.
I fully agree when it comes to preserving landings, I really do. Again, referring back to my point is that I believe it a shame when a route/highball is made safe because the landing is changed, that is all. It would make a big difference to many of the great slab routes if the landings were cleared for example, this is my fear. Some problems (in this I refer to highballs) have their character defined by their nasty landings. On a tangent, I don't particularly lke the limestone hardcore which is put beneath some problems to preserve the landings as it's not in keeping, but I suppose no harm no foul in that respect.
-
Another nail in the coffin for the forum of discussion, as after all this ranting nothing has changed
Not so.
i have to agree with ben. this is a very interesting thread to read and has been a very good and probing discussion on a valid subject. it's made me think. however, if you're original intention was to bring everyone round to your way of thinking, as implied above, then that is missing the point of forum/discussion/debate. i also think this ultimately runs a little deeper into the routes vs boulder issue; it is a little previous to presuppose all users of this forum are boulderers. the url of this forum is often quite misleading in that respect. i can appreciate the argument from both sides but as bonjoy said the critical thing is to judge each case on an individual basis.
i can't wait til somone builds the first crag conservatory. that will be a dynamite discussion.
-
Another nail in the coffin for the forum of discussion, as after all this ranting nothing has changed
I agree with cofe, if there's a discussion you've got to accept that opinion might not side with you - a great political debate could ensue here
also v. surprised that no-one's mentioned the trackside boulder and the wood chips there by - I was lead to believe this was universally applauded when it happened (personally I think it's great, buy surely it's artifical patioing at it's worst if you disapprove.....
-
also v. surprised that no-one's mentioned the trackside boulder and the wood chips there by - I was lead to believe this was universally applauded when it happened (personally I think it's great, buy surely it's artifical patioing at it's worst if you disapprove.....
Not that v. surprising. It's not a patio, and the only danger compromised is that of getting your rock shoes muddy.
I was thinking the other day, is this patioing mainly to accomodate pads? Back in the Old DaysTM, when there were no pads, people used to be able to land catlike on all manner of irregular surfaces. Now pads are pretty ineffective on said irregular surfaces because you can still go down gaps etc. Are purpose-built patios pandering to people poorly practiced in pouncing from precipices?
I don't really have an opinion either way on this, just occurred to me. Thoughts?
-
It would make a big difference to many of the great slab routes if the landings were cleared for example, this is my fear.
I can't think of a single example where this applies. Which are you thinking of? Do you mean Froggatt's Great Slab routes or just 'those slab routes which are well weapon'?
Most bad landings I can think of are mainly caused by bedrock or large embedded boulders which are well beyoond the scope of patioing, which in my experience is just moving loose rocks about. Certainly none of the landings at Froggatt could be easily improved by patioing. Again it seems you are pontificating from imagination rather than real examples - this really isn't about the emasculation of classic bold climbs, it never has been and I don't see it leading to it.
the trackside boulder and the wood chips there by - I was lead to believe this was universally applauded when it happened
Personally I'm not a fan of this, though its one for another thread. It isn't having any long-term benefit and keeps having to be topped up. In fact I actually think its having a detrimental effect. That wood mulch does not seem to be encouraging the grass to recover. Don't they use it around rose bushes to discourage weeds?
Ditto limestone hardcore at grit crags, should be like with like.
is this patioing mainly to accomodate pads? Back in the Old DaysTM, when there were no pads, people used to be able to land catlike on all manner of irregular surfaces.
No they didn't. They either broke ankles or (like me) paid for it later with knee operations. As of now, you either didn't fall off or took the consequences. I haven't seen any change in general landing ability.
Now pads are pretty ineffective on said irregular surfaces because you can still go down gaps etc. Are purpose-built patios pandering to people poorly practiced in pouncing from precipices?
Well patios and pads clearly go together like hot Vimto and thermos flasks. However I think this is because a patio with a beer towel on it isn't a significantly better landing than uneven ground with a beer towel on it, not because we've got worse at landing on either.
-
I haven't seen any change in general landing ability.
You didn't see me on/off Gibbering Wreck.
Apologies for jibing modern landing standards. I just wanted to practice a bit of alliteration before my interview tomorrow.
I'm just off to trawl through todays tabloids for 'story' ideas.
-
damn your quick post, was about to jibe you for your shite alliteration. while you're over that way have a quite word with the madness that's king Andy. for all our sakes. as soon as we get a clear day i'm gona go and move that pebble under danny's
-
i have to agree with ben.
Can I have that in writing Cofe? It's been so long since anyone said those sweet words.
-
Most bad landings I can think of are mainly caused by bedrock or large embedded boulders which are well beyoond the scope of patioing
You don't have to move the rocks to fill in the gaps, Patioing is the flatening or improving of landings, my concern. I meant the Froggatt routes, they are screed at the bottom and it wouldn't take much to level that out, but we could apply it to 'Well Weapon Slabs' if I catch your drift.
this really isn't about the emasculation of classic bold climbs, it never has been and I don't see it leading to it.
What has classic got to do with it? Nowt. There is still atleast one less E5 in the world thanks to Patio-ing. If it was just a matter of kicking a few ugly quarried pebbles out of the way the FA would have done it. The fact is, you got your back into it and changed a E grade worthy route into a Fb grade worthy problem, because you wanted to and you saw it as right. I don't.
quite word with the madness that's king Andy
That should read King Andi. I've already spoken to him about it, and he agrees, just doesn't vent his views like a madman.BTW there are no pebbles under Danny's, they've been removed over the course of years of people cleaning away the landing and pulling out the little loose blocks. Well now you've paid the ultimate price and had limestone brought to the crucible of British grit.
pontificating from imagination
Say 'Pontificating' one more time, I dare you :spank:
-
There's two seperate issues here:
Patioing on environmental grounds, prevent ground erosion which I don't think anyone has anything against
Patioing on convenience/ popularity grounds which some of us are concerned about, as it seems unethical.
The photo of TAOWHW doesn't make it seem so bad actually, even if it's blatantly not E5 any more,
but I still ask:
What would you do say, with the whole of Wharncliffe? Eh? EH?!
And I presume there were no sheep being hemmed in by that dry stone wall at Moorside.
I think you guys know what you're doing and where the line is though. just when everyone else starts whooping `great job guys, yet another 7b+ for us to try' then maybe it's time to take 5.
-
It would make a big difference to many of the great slab routes if the landings were cleared for example, this is my fear.
I can't think of a single example where this applies. Which are you thinking of? Do you mean Froggatt's Great Slab routes or just 'those slab routes which are well weapon'?
A good example where either clearing or patioing would drastically reduce the seriousness of a route would be "Don't Slip Now" (E5 6a) at Curbar. Smallish but very angular boulders at the base which could easily be either moved or filled in but which are too big to be padded with a mat. Changing a landing like this would be completely unacceptable and would be tantamount to environmental vandalism.
-
There is still at least one less E5 in the world thanks to Patio-ing. If it was just a matter of kicking a few ugly quarried pebbles out of the way the FA would have done it. The fact is, you got your back into it and changed a E grade worthy route into a Fb grade worthy problem, because you wanted to and you saw it as right. I don't.
As already said before it is still E5 without pads. You climb it without a pad and tell me otherwise (same goes for you Paz), the dyno for the top being the crux BTW. Besides, who gives a crap about which arbitary set of number/letter prefixes is attached to said climb? The climb has hardly been lost. It's an awesome piece of climbing, but now people will actually climb it.
BTW there are no pebbles under Danny's, they've been removed over the course of years of people cleaning away the landing and pulling out the little loose blocks. Well now you've paid the ultimate price and had limestone brought to the crucible of British grit.
If you mean the new material at the Plantation you're wrong, it's grit.
Are you suggesting....scratch that, your guidelines DO suggest that small boulders exposed by erosion under Danny's prob should be left in place, ludicrous!
Say 'Pontificating' one more time, I dare you
Pontificating
What would you do say, with the whole of Wharncliffe? Eh? EH?!
Nothing, that's the point you seem to be missing. There is no fucking crusade going on here and there are few suitable candidate routes/problems around anyway, even at Wharncliffe.
This is first and formost a practise relevant to boulder probs, mostly not even particularly high one. This is not the end of climbing as we know it, it's just you hearing about something which has happened since the year dot.
And I presume there were no sheep being hemmed in by that dry stone wall at Moorside.
You presume correct and win a bonus point for stupidest, most straw-clutching question in the whole debate.
-
Here I was having a bit of a wind up and now you go and throw me a challenge which I've now got to go and find some way of weaseling out of.
Am I allowed to fall off it without pads is that good enough?
Anyway I like the fact that we both understood by your `climb it without pads up' challenge that headpointing wasn't an option. We all agree on something.
With Don't Slip Now - that's alright we can all onsight 6a sometimes.
And Dave's suggestion to `go on some sport climbing forum'. Have you any idea what happends when you go on cocktalk and talk about sport climbing? There's a few good guys but overall it hasn't got much better since you last went on there. UKB's the onyl place I've found where I can talk about sport climbing without getting distracted.
-
Am I allowed to fall off it without pads is that good enough?
So long as you take the full height fall from the crux i.e. your hand on the top.
I might let you off with hanging the top then jumping backwards in a failled dyno stylee. ;)
-
Well myself and somebody's fool did a bit of work here rebuilding the landing today. I'm not a great fan of crag patios but I'm quite pleased with the job we managed to do. The death block has been rolled to the left, a little infilling has left a nice landing. It could be a bit deeper, but I'd be happy to try it on my own with one pad now.
i was put off trying this cos it looked like the landing could leave you quadraspazzed on a life-glug. will be keen to get on it now.
As already said before it is still E5 without pads
Hmmm, yeah sounds like it, unless it was E7 before.. That ain't the same grade, and yes, numbers mean something to some people, sad as it is. Still want E7 for Bellyporkers do ya, not if numbers don't matter!
Are you suggesting....scratch that, your guidelines DO suggest that small boulders exposed by erosion under Danny's prob should be left in place, ludicrous!
Yeah. You keep taking them out and the ground will get lower, fact.
Pontificating
Double dare you.
-
Go do it ground up, sans pads and tell me it's not E5. The landing is not much better from an unpadded point of view now than is was before. Before you had a medium size block to either land on or break your ankle on, now you have a host of small blocks and holes to aim for/dodge. Same difference.
Have never taken owt but 7a+ for Bellyporkers
Yeah. You keep taking them out and the ground will get lower, fact.
And leaving the odd stone sticking out will stop the erosion somehow?
Pontificating pontificactor of Pontefract is you.
-
I meant the Froggatt routes, they are screed at the bottom and it wouldn't take much to level that out,
Bollocks. They are not 'screed', there are large embedded blocks and sections of bedrock.
A good example where either clearing or patioing would drastically reduce the seriousness of a route would be "Don't Slip Now" (E5 6a) at Curbar. Smallish but very angular boulders at the base which could easily be either moved or filled in but which are too big to be padded with a mat.
Ditto - bollocks. The death-boulder at the base of Don't Slip now is massive and could neither be padded out nor easily moved.
This was a reasonable debate, it has sadly descended to a cocktalk style waste of time where folk are determined to rant on despite not knowing what they are talking about.
White Hat would still earn E5 without pads, trust me. With pads, yes it is much safer. Perhaps those of you determined to deny the facts without checking them for yourselves should consider the removed rock was like a giant cheatstone - ie the problem is now effectively higher. Also although E5 was then and now a reasonable grade, the landing was a russian roulette thing where a lucky landing would earn E4, an unlucky one Ewhatever-I'm-quadraspazzed'. Now unless you kick backwards to far its a more predictable E5 everytime.
Yeah. You keep taking them out and the ground will get lower, fact.
Jeez, whatever. Again I wonder if your brain is engaged. So when small boulders get completely exposed by erosion, and start rolling around etc, what should be done? We worship them as untouchable until they end up as Hoodoos whilst all around gets lower? Talk about putting things on a pedestal...
-
i thought it was one of these things but had to check.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/22/Bryce_Canyon_Hoodoo_Row.jpg/800px-Bryce_Canyon_Hoodoo_Row.jpg)
Bonjoy - will you spot?
-
Certainly not. I'd hate to detract from the cherished risk element. Spotters are for wimpy boulderers no?
-
Yes, and Seb Grieve on Meshuga, Robin Barker (?) on that thing in the Stanage Guide, and Joe Brown left of Shine On in the same etc.
-
Cheats
-
If it's good enough for wimpy boulderers, it's good enough for wimpy trad climbers too.
-
much of this reminds me of the brass eye special when the politicians kicked off in 'outrage' and then admitted they hadn't actually watched it.
-
waste of time where folk are determined to rant on despite not knowing what they are talking about.
I'm still debating, you are ranting. I'm yet to take a stance of 'I know what I'm talking about, you don't' which is what you've just done.
You also appear to be arguing that putting rocks in (patioing, infilling whatver) reduces erosion and is fine but also taking exposed rocks out is also fine.
JB, I'm not having a go at you, trust me on this, and as much as I might come across as one, I'm not trying to be an arse. I'd add that I sincereley hope that I'm still a friend. I'm venting an opinion on something which even without being seen up close and personal portrays a change of style. A change of style which can easily be seen as an accepted norm by people who may have seen the original TAOWHW thread (in which you also stated you are not a fan of patio building). This I suppose is a valid concern.
The problem which has come from this is one in which folk are arguing about too many different things which perhaps need addressing in their own right i.e. general erosion control, boulder problem landings, highball landings (in which the nature of the route is perhaps determined by the landing).
A problem with forums is that they drag out, hence us getting ratty now. Had we had the same conversation in a pub, we would have concluded that we all agree and understand the nature of the problem much sooner, I have no doubt about this as we're all good people who care deeply about our sport and our environment. :kiss1:
BonJoy, in the age old rules of Going Live if you go on from a double dare, that results in a physical challenge: I suggest Sifta's in a vest. Oh, and you gave Wad to Somebody's Fool for E7 ground up... :spank:
-
much of this reminds me of the brass eye special when the politicians kicked off in 'outrage' and then admitted they hadn't actually watched it.
Nice memory, but how do you square that with allowing people who don't live in sheffield right now also to post?
i don't know what becamest of everyone meeting round a certain pub in the middle of the Peak, but I'd love it if BMC are meetings were this lively.
Such as Brass Eye, some fine shit just don't happen in real life.
-
I'm venting an opinion on something which even without being seen up close and personal
Bottom line is don't vent opinion on stuff you haven't seen. I've done no ranting, all I've done is given answers based on facts. All you've done is give opinion based on imagination.
Forecast looks good for Sat, will you deem to descend from your Leek-based Ivory Pontificating Tower this weekend and come over to the eastern edges?
-
much of this reminds me of the brass eye special when the politicians kicked off in 'outrage' and then admitted they hadn't actually watched it.
Nice memory, but how do you square that with allowing people who don't live in sheffield right now also to post?
it would be no problem patrick if it was a general debate. it has transpired it basically isn't. hence my glib comment.
-
I'm venting an opinion on something which even without being seen up close and personal
Forecast looks good for Sat, will you deem to descend from your Leek-based Ivory Pontificating Tower this weekend and come over to the eastern edges?
Yeah sounds good, but expect a good shin raking and a kidney pummeling. I can't see you scum-bags from my ivory tower anyhoo. Shall I bring a pad?
Cheers!
-
You better had bring a pad, you sure won't be getting a spot!
-
you sure won't be getting a spot!
What, like that one on your nose...
-
i dont want to be seen to be moderating this free for all......
fuck it:
this to me is one of the most interesting threads this forum has seen for a year and a day....
lets debate, get angry, have hugs and kisses and then get the consensus. This really matters guys...
-
Glad you're enjoying it.
Unfortunately you're not the one who is going to have to pay for it by having his mat whipped from under him at every available opportunity for the next year and a day because I'm not a 'wimpy boulderer', let alone how JB is going to repay me in belaying duties..... A martyr to the cause :ang:
I've seen the future, and it's orangey-red and leaking from my nose and ears.
-
c'mon...
is that bad?
Ok, probably is. I suggest a different group of mates doing yr spotting until it all cools off mate!
-
Sounds like this should be the hottest new tick in the peak.
Has anyone else actually climbed it since JB's reportage (07/02/07) - or are the floodgates still to be breached?
-
You'd love it if it became the hottest tick in the peak wouldn't you?!
-
Sounds like this should be the hottest new tick in the peak.
Has anyone else actually climbed it since JB's reportage (07/02/07) - or are the floodgates still to be breached?
would love to man but it's perma-wet at the minute (well certainly at weekends) - wet streak down the right hand side. damn weather. i don't reckon floodgates will be breached either. more something people will always aspire to.
-
You'd love it if it became the hottest tick in the peak wouldn't you?!
You must know the answer to that?! - I'd rather people came north of the border to repeat pheonix wall though - the best natural landing zone on grit!
-
this thread is nothing but comedy. i'm supposed to be having a shower and going out, i can't the suspense is just unbelievable. patio towers sounds a good shout for sat then can get round to doing be somebody.
uptown pm me if you're about next midwk, will try and get some cats to spread their wings.
whoever was going on about don't slip now obviously has no eyes, no sense of touch and has never been there.
Andi i spoke to si about your rantings and he said they started off in good faith but now he believes you have gone the same way as the commisioner in the pink panther movies.
-
Bottom line is don't vent opinion on stuff you haven't seen.
I've never seen badger baiting, but I still have an opinion on it. Sounds pretty bad, although I'm sure they'd say the badger enjoys a good scrap.
If Si has changed his view he certainly didn't mention it when he popped round for a brew the other night.
-
Sounds like this should be the hottest new tick in the peak.
Has anyone else actually climbed it since JB's reportage (07/02/07) - or are the floodgates still to be breached?
would love to man but it's perma-wet at the minute (well certainly at weekends) - wet streak down the right hand side. damn weather. i don't reckon floodgates will be breached either. more something people will always aspire to.
i predict another weekend for lovejoy spent looking for dry rock around the top end of curbar.
P.S. can anyone engineer a joke where the punchline is someone irish called Patty O'Building?
-
P.S. can anyone engineer a joke where the punchline is someone irish called Patty O'Building?
What do you call an Irish fella carrying rocks along Curbar Edge? (you didn't say it had to be a good joke)
What do you call an Irish fella carrying rocks whilst being chased down the road away from the Roaches?
-
Oh, and you gave Wad to Somebody's Fool for E7 ground up...
I most certainly did not sir. He wadded me, with a dismissive remark regard the E grade I might add! http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=viewkarma;start=200 You can have your spanked ass back :spank:
Forecast is looking poo again for Sat now.
UTG - I'm having a week bouldering up on Yorks grit 24th-31st. Staying in Pately Bridge. Pheonix Wall is number two (after a very tasty project) on my to-do list. Come join us if you get a chance.
-
Oh, and you gave Wad to Somebody's Fool for E7 ground up...
I most certainly did not sir.
twas me! with tongue firmly in cheek!
this thread started off with good debate - two valid view points well put forward - then all got a bit (http://www.njguido.com/forum/html/emoticons/sterb029.gif)
-
this thread started off with good debate - two valid view points well put forward - then all got a bit (http://www.njguido.com/forum/html/emoticons/sterb029.gif)
I know, quality wasn't it. Food for thought and something to mull over and maybe might bring about a few second thoughts next time someone considers moving a 'death block'. Ho hum. See what the weather brings, had a lovely afternoon today anyway. :wave:
-
Has anyone else actually climbed it since JB's reportage (07/02/07) - or are the floodgates still to be breached?
Well I've done it twice since, BB Guns has also done it. Both times we've had to dry the wet streak off, a good breeze and it soon dries off. It is a corker.
It is undoubtedly the hottest tick in the peak right now, everyone I know is heading there on saturday if its dry. Best get there early before Andi throws the landing down the hill though...
-
The landing will look the same, but when you fall on it it'll crumple into a big hole full of shitty sticks put there by Shaz. You've been warned.
-
No so clever Andi, for that to happen, I'd have to fall. Shame on you, your naive plan will cripple some poor innocent.
-
the shitty sticks put across the bottom of another problem getting a fair bit of attention looked like they'd do the trick today. if just for jims come back to bed pose
-
If they're innocent they'll be expecting E5, so come what may.
-
Seven pages?!?! You are fucking joking, surely? I thought this was a discussion on the type of block paving I should get for our drive....
Back on topic, I have nothing but admiration for the patio builders. I rarely have any excess energy at the crag for building stuff (although Mike Lea is pretty handy - a regular Alan Titchmarsh that one. Maybe that's why he's so short - carrying all them heavy rocks about!) However, I do like falling off onto a sensitively landscaped landing. Those who want to do it, push on I say, but make sure its necessary and doesn't look shit or you'll get places banned. Personally, I always try and use pads to sort out landings. It works pretty well and doesn't require so much effort. I haven't found many landings I couldn't pad out safely - ask Gaz Fatchimp Parry.... He was lobbing of Big Air repeatedly once we'd attended to the landing with 5 or 6 pads. Bouldering and highballing is something I like doing - breaking myself isn't. There are always exceptions that prove the rule - TAOWHW being the obvious one as there wasn't ever going to be enough pads up there to sort that landing out. Charlotte Rampling (E6 6b) at Gardoms is another case in point. E6 before the horrific block under the landing was trundled, and E6 afterwards. You're still fucked if you blow it, but you might be less likely to be really broken/dead now the block has gone. No patio or pad nest will make much improvement to things if you drop the holds at the top! Routes are routes - Boulder problems are buolder problems. I would still say that routes like Ulysses are routes even if you boulder them out with loads of pads. It is possible (even likely) to really nail yourself falling onto pads if you come off high enough, or don't land well. Apparently, climbing is dangerous...apparently...
-
nice one percy. i agree completely. yeah pads can hurt. i saw some guy bail off paseidon adventure repeatedly until his ankles blew apart (interesting choice). anyway consider yourself wadded. I'd be impossible if i heaven forbid properly hurt myself climbing, i'm bad enough with a tweaked pinky. anyway, its somewhat unlikely as I'm always at work when its nice. i'm working sunday so I'd suggest you get out then.
-
(http://www.8a.nu/images/news/large/635663322787667893_11163243_10153330754844411_8341069173472290697_n.jpg)
/via @moonclimbing (https://twitter.com/moonclimbing/status/595565778654646273)
-
On wandering past Pistol Whip at the cliff the other day, it's clear that the landing is eroding quickly due to the amount of foot-traffic the corridor gets. One obvious solution to prevent further erosion and flatten out the landing so it's a bit more like it used to be would be to patio and step the landing. However, there are a few issues with this.
1. It's a frequently used walkway. Would a patio make access easier and prevent further erosion? My thoughts would be yes, especially if steps building up to the patio were built too.
2. Stability. Is it difficult to build a stable patio? Would repeated wear and tear degenerate it quickly, given that hundreds of tourists/climbers a week walk up that corridor?
3. Material source. There's not a lot of loose rock around at the cliff any more. Where could materials be sourced from, at no cost?
4. Legal issues. Who owns the cliff? Would we have permission to build a patio? If someone rolls their ankle on a collapsing patio, who's in the shit then?
5. Aesthetics. Linked to 3 I guess. A rock patio would look unnatural, but, in its current state, a horrendously eroded channel arguably looks worse.
The other option is to do nothing and that it becomes increasingly highball and an increasingly worse landing, therefore putting people off this excellent challenge.
Thoughts?
-
Patioing that landing could be really difficult for all the reasons you mention (particularly permissions, materials, and availability of labour). If you wanted to return it to natural then the landing would be sloping and then perhaps not an improvement for climber. At least now the landing just needs a ton of pads shoving in it and its all nice and level. Stepped would probably look a bit shit and would be a lot of effort for two problems.
At the moment it isn't too hard to try Pistol Whip as there are normally plenty of people at the Cliff and you can generally rally a few of them to chuck their pads into the pit and make it nice. I can imagine trying to do the same for Making Shapes is harder as it is within the reach of fewer people. The real problem will come with the inevitable worsening of the problem.
Whatever you want to do, the way to do it is definitely to get it raised with the local BMC access rep. The simplest solution to worsening damage would be to signpost people away from that gully to reduce the numbers of people using it as a thoroughfare. If the BMC could agree with the farmer to a birdban type sign at each entrance then that might curb the erosion somewhat. Its in the interest of the farmer too as, presently, there's a bit of his field which is vanishing!
-
I've only been to the 'cliff a couple of times in the last ten years, but I had noticed things had got worse. And Andy says, this is primarily a footpath erosion problem. Signposting folk away will at best slow further erosion, it is unlikely to stop it and will not repair it. At the Plantation we got a load of grit hardcore (sacks of crushed rock, not a Will Ackers DJ set). It is far from perfect but is a big improvement - effectively the erosion clock has been wound back ten years, ongoing erosion has been lessened and the vegetation is slowly encroaching back. It's not easy though, ideally you'd want some bigger rocks to form a foundation, and with any bare ground the water will still run off somewhere so you have to try to direct it. Plus you have to overcome your natural desire to only climb in a purely found environment and incur the disdain of ex-York climbers.
-
Nice namecheck but he does more house and breakbeat I thought??
-
Nice namecheck but he does more is stuck in his house and because he breaksbfeet I thought??
Think a patio here might be a little in your face. As said the erosion is mostly from the hundreds of walkers going along here, if they all had to shuffle round some man made patio I don't think it would give a great impression and I imagine it would be really hard to make it look natural. Just chuck loads of pads under it?
-
Yeah that is a point how did the lanky fisherman break himself??
-
He went climbing.
Yeah, my thoughts were to incorporate the patio into the path, hence the steps, then people wouldn't have to walk around it. The problem is going to be that you'll need more and more pads over time as the channel gets deeper and erodes further up the corridor.
-
If the BMC are prepared to chuck some money at it and round up a gang of volunteers then its a great idea. Fill in the hole with an appropriate substance and hope it sticks! Definitely needs organising through the BMC though as they may be able to provide funds, expertise, and liaison with the farmer.
The hole is manageable as it is now but it will continue to get worse.
-
At Stanage the BMC arranged for some hardcore to be dumped in the car park. It was then up to volunteers to carry it up the hill and do the work.
-
Talk to the farmer (over the road from that end of the crag). He's a nice fella - and as long as it's not getting in the way of his cattle or sheep probably won't mind.
Even better would be to organise a bit of a day to tidy things up - repair the odd wall etc.. Sure he'd be appreciative of any help that way (under his direction I'd suggest). I've had a couple of chats with him as he rather resignedly repairs walls kicked over by chavs etc...
Anyway. I hope you were only going for a stroll around the cliff this time of year... Only just September yknow...
-
BUMP for Dan C.....
-
Summon the Pontificators.
I was exploring Fontainefawr in West Snowdonia recently, described in the book as "Please keep the noise down and leave no trace as the blocks lie on the edge of a nature reserve".
This is a somewhat interesting area of tumbling granite blocs, most of which don't actually have landings. To compensate for this and somehow pretend it's a feasible bouldering location, there is now a grand total of two solidly constructed decking platforms (fenceposts driven into the ground and 2-by-4 nailed wedged into gaps and nailed across them), one branch/log built platform, and six pallets patioing out a stream area. Given it's tucked away deep in the woods I doubt this is going to offend any passers by, but once the leaves are down it's probably visible on Google Maps.
It doesn't bother me personally, except for the fact that most of the comfortisation is useless for the high 6s I might be capable of (one of which half of you would land on the decking and the other half would continue nearly 2m down onto lumpy boulders), but it is an interesting interpretation of "leave no trace".
-
wow...
Scroll down and check out the image of "The Engineer" in The Cascades. cool problem, but a massive wood patio was built which has since fallen apart and been rebuilt and fallen apart again...
https://www.climbing.com/places/the-classic-25-americas-best-boulder-problems/ (https://www.climbing.com/places/the-classic-25-americas-best-boulder-problems/)
-
So I had a quick toppy on slab n crack yesterday amid the masses of PaD parTy sendtrainers. Anyway I was thinking it’s not to bad up to the first gear which is reasonable as long as the rock holds. The thing that bothers me is the landing. Otherwise reasonably flat apart from an old tv sized block right in the landing zone. It wouldn’t take much to trundle it to one side and fashion a a ‘varian style’ patio out of available raw materials and possibly a couple of ‘lakes style’ wooden pallets followed by a ‘life on hold’ style bouldering PaD mountain - at least 8 maxi pads to safe-ify the landing. This would bring the first half down to highball font 6C/+, (v5 or B0 in new money) with the gear already in place from a previous ascension-ist and solid beta combined with B1-2 ability a ‘flash’ could be on the cards. Regardless I feel any ascent in this style would be representative of a moral and ethical leap in standards. With any resorting to ‘good old headpointing’ regarded as regressive and retrograde. My vote is for shifting that block in keeping with the ‘zeitgeist’ whatever that means. What’s the consensus?
-
fool
you should have kept quiet and moved the block in secret
-
Impossible WTF saw me there, although blanked me as usual. Plus about a million PaD parTy peeps. It’s very weird, a brave new world out there.....
-
You've got it all wrong, Dan. You do what you want, then make a wanky Instagram post about it telling everyone that these are the new rules.
-
Don’t forget to leave room for your sponsors logos. Maybe carved into the trundled block?
-
move the block, have your fun and blame the choads (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9997.msg164458.html#msg164458)
-
From that thread:
morons. is it moveable?
:shrug: Go and get a coffee Cofe, then think carefully about your question... ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol: genius
-
I think the best thing is to call a halt to this conversation now. The above linked thread contains a wide range of negativity, sarcasm, personal insults, school boy humour and other non shark / oak / tor / politics related topics. Clearly this is in breach of the moral guidelines implicit within the forum. No doubt Reeve and highrepute will be along on their vertically humongous horse to make correct complaint and have this removed anyway. Piety wins the day. Please return to other more meaningful discussions in line with current millenial cheerleading based positivity.
-
Impossible WTF saw me there, although blanked me as usual. Plus about a million PaD parTy peeps. It’s very weird, a brave new world out there.....
Good to see you Dan
-
You too Guy