UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: 36chambers on September 20, 2016, 08:49:40 am
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New route at Dovedale by Joe Heeley
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=431595
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKiFecThbmd/?taken-by=monkeytimefilms
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It is on Adjudicator Wall
Yeah, it goes direct through what was on old bolted line that zippy put in and then goes direct through the head wall and bulge above.
Good to have a keen youth scouring the Peak for gaps
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I'd be interested to know what it'd get as a sport route?
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I'd be interested to know what it'd get as a sport route?
Joe and Kyle said about 8a+
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It was down in the Rockfax as an open proj with a guessed grade of 8a, but that may not have included the upper section.
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Big grade for peak limestone trad, Dovedale seems in vogue right now. Walked past Joe and Kyle on the way out of dovedale a few months back and they were cagey about what they were up to, good effort for getting it done.
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Big grade for peak limestone trad
Yep, I reckon that's why Tom didn't give Final Round an E-grade, it's sticking your neck out to give anything more than E7 on peak lime! It's cool that there are still things like this to be done in the peak, Dovedale is such a great setting too.
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We need the P. Whittaker grading system more than ever!
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Good to have a keen youth scouring the Peak for Gaps
Surely there aren't any, just nip to Meadowhell.
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https://vimeo.com/185521967
Great stuff. That actually looks really good for grotty peak limestone. I like the down to earth feel of the film and lack of annoying bullshit editing. The crux wire too....lol. Good effort without pads too.
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What a tremendous and inspiring statement!
There should be zero concern about the grade too - other than perhaps upping it a notch. Give it E20 or whatever, who cares. The effort and commitment to go out there on a limb and get it done should be applauded. Full stop.
F'ing great effort lads.
:beer2:
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The route looks good, lovely looking rock and a good slap. It's so nice down Dovedale, especially so on late summer evenings when the walkers have gone home.
I do care about the grade as it's a historic moment for Peak lime trad climbing which I take a great interest in. I've read Muy Caliente is limestone 8a+ with a risky bit and viewed as E9, so if Joe thinks Eyes Wide Shut is 8a+ with a risky bit I guess he must see it along those same lines?
Well done Joe, you and Kyle seemed to be seeking out new stuff and this looks like a good one indeed.
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Yes, but surely the grade isn't a score, or "prize", though admittedly it often gets used that way.
Too often, people are put down for offering grades a bit above what a route settles at.
As with James Pearson's efforts in the South West, what I see here is enthusiasm, great commitment and principle, dedication and some pretty pokey hard climbing.
What we're left with, is an honest account too. Great.
It's a bit tragic, if we're at a point where you need a longer neck to grade the route, than you do to climb it!
I think that we'd all rather see more of this action, than less of it, simply because people are afraid of the put downs that often follow.
This is so clearly a case of it being the climbing that matters.
:punk: Who do I Wad? 8)
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:punk: Who do I Wad? 8)
Yourself Dave. Oh, wait you can't. Have one from me :)
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I'm glad everyone is being decent about the grading decision.
I had a really long chat with Joe about the subject on the walk out, and unfortunately my camera ran out before he had the chance to explain his thoughts on the rope - otherwise I would have left it in.
I'm sure if you catch him down at the wall, then he'll be just as honest about his thought process - but in short - he's quite prepared for someone to go along, do the repeat, and offer a more experienced view. He's definitely aware that he hasn't climbed a multitude of limestone E8/E9's to work from but given the objective difficulty and serious nature of the climbing (with that last piece of gear falling out - you're looking at a groundfall from 20m up, and it is definitely not and easy move) he felt that the grade was justified, even if only as a warning to the E8 crankers not to get too carried away with it.
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Looks brilliant. Great video too. Well done Joe
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(with that last piece of gear falling out - you're looking at a groundfall from 20m up, and it is definitely not and easy move)
Is the rest of the gear pretty bad then? The next piece only looked about 2-3 feet below the one that he knocked out and the piece after that another 2 feet lower.
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Difficult to say, and I'm definitely not the one to declare the quality of gear or rock (proper boulderer/sport junkie), but it is all quite small placements (Brass Head RP type things), and Joe seemed to think that the rock was a little friable in the placements.
Again - he didn't fall on any of it, and didn't do any tests on the gear. :shrug:
If someone gets up there and takes some whippers on it, and it all holds - then I guess E8 would seem reasonable.
If they deck out and break something, then E9 sounds good.
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Great looking route and nice video. Brilliant to see some old skool Peak lime trad getting done, looks scary and hard. 8a+ on dodgy gear has gotta be E9 surely?
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Nice looking rock that!
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Again - he didn't fall on any of it, and didn't do any tests on the gear. :shrug:
If someone gets up there and takes some whippers on it, and it all holds - then I guess E8 would seem reasonable.
If they deck out and break something, then E9 sounds good.
Good ethics too. Depending on small placements in limestone is always scary. Some of those did look dodgy.
I guess this route is ripe for more "Maybe that was the E9" comments from Grimer - and a bit of "something fell out of your bottom" too ;D
Any takers for "..repeated the route quickly afterwards to confirm grade and quality"?
Good work.
(Hey, thanks T_B ;) )
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Guaranteed quality - I did (most of) the moves on it on the first session out there, and it climbs superbly.
Techy yet powerful slab into decent holds but skatey feet, super gear placement followed by a nice rest to psyche yourself up (or out) for the top.
Genuinely not a duff move on it. Highly recommended. 5*. Would top-rope again.
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Wow! Nuts! :bow:
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Again - he didn't fall on any of it, and didn't do any tests on the gear. :shrug:
If someone gets up there and takes some whippers on it, and it all holds - then I guess E8 would seem reasonable.
If they deck out and break something, then E9 sounds good.
It's almost like "that is the E9" you might say
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Yes, re "that is the E9" . We should probably add that that's a reference to Seb's lob onto the flake - now broken - on Parthian in the Hard Grit vid. Never before tested.
Scary :o
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Repeated this yesterday, first go no falls after top rope inspection.
It climbs well, the gear is bomber and should be a future classic if it somehow stops seeping .
I first had a look a few weeks back just after repeating toms HXS on ilam rock earlier in the day. (That's a toughie)
Reckon about 7c/+ or e7 ish, hard to tell as it was pretty soaked, wet holds galore and soaking gear placements and horrid Connies in general..... The slab was about font 7a. The top gear is good and the piece just below the last placement's is a stonking gold super light. The rest in the niche is very good. Full recovery possible and easy to down climb to from placing the upper bits of kit.
The finishing moves were done with very wet hands and probably font 6c?
Anyhow it was a cool route.
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Fucking balls. I was going to call the "Jordan First Repeat And Downgrade" as soon as I watched the video. I should have put money on it!
Also could have predicted no arguments with the quality ;)
Nice one man.
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Good work on the swift repeat Jordan and thanks for the informative write up.
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Cheers
There does seem a trend to give stuff a high grade but without having repeated what's already around or taking into account leeway within a grade spectrum.
Guess big number = more money/fame. Who'd blame them.
Good effort to all doing new routes BTW. I should pull my finger out.
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just after repeating toms HXS on ilam rock earlier in the day. (That's a toughie)
What grade do you reckon?
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Guess big number = more money/fame. Who'd blame them.
Hey Jordan, I've never met you but that kind of throwaway cynical statement is what increasingly puts me off the British climbing scene. I spoke to Joe before he did it and he genuinely thought it was 8a+ climbing and didn't trust the gear. He's young and clearly a bit inexperienced. Cut the guy some slack FFS. Anyway, good effort on your repeat.
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He did kick the gear out. Maybe that was the E9 bit?
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Guess big number = more money/fame. Who'd blame them.
Hey Jordan, I've never met you but that kind of throwaway cynical statement is what increasingly puts me off the British climbing scene. I spoke to Joe before he did it and he genuinely thought it was 8a+ climbing and didn't trust the gear. He's young and clearly a bit inexperienced. Cut the guy some slack FFS. Anyway, good effort on your repeat.
What T_B said - did you bother to read any of the thread before slagging the guy off?
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To be fair I think Jordan's comment could be aimed at nearly all climbing media rather than at the route's first ascensionist - social media, the mags, UKC, the BMC website etc. etc. etc. The climbing media operates almost entirely by regurgitating - often with with added hype and a nice staged photo - whatever a climber tells it. Without any attempt to query. Vested interests galore. No objectivity. News stories get published almost entirely on the back of hype.
Jordan has given an honest appraisal of the route's difficultly which is exactly what should happen. Isn't it?
Now go and repeat my E7 at Forwyn Jordan, it'll be dry and good for an OS attempt!
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Guess big number = more money/fame. Who'd blame them.
Hey Jordan, I've never met you but that kind of throwaway cynical statement is what increasingly puts me off the British climbing scene. I spoke to Joe before he did it and he genuinely thought it was 8a+ climbing and didn't trust the gear. He's young and clearly a bit inexperienced. Cut the guy some slack FFS. Anyway, good effort on your repeat.
What T_B said - did you bother to read any of the thread before slagging the guy off?
In Nike Air's defence, this Joe chap does have a track record of misrepresenting his achievements online to get more followers/fame :shrug:
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Calm down its the internet, anything can be taken out of context.
He's definitely aware that he hasn't climbed a multitude of limestone E8/E9's to work from but given the objective difficulty and serious nature of the climbing (with that last piece of gear falling out - you're looking at a groundfall from 20m up, and it is definitely not and easy move) he felt that the grade was justified
For example you could quite easily read that as "he admits that he has no idea what hes talking about but gave it a massive grade anyway"*
*in no way does this reflect my opinion of what actually happened
pretty easy to grade wrongly though. limestone gear never looks as good when your not used to it, and few people can grade slabs well unless they climb them a lot. (slabs are always desperate)
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Ah I just somehow lost my long reply....
Anyways
I had done a load of reading up on it thanks. I'm just wondering what the comparison routes were for the grading of it.
Locally?
Eye of tiger, felt 8a on the flash/ground up
Final round, felt 8b, e9
Arch rival 7c+
Boot boys 8a+
It's not a science always, it's mostly a feeling.
I shouldn't have expressed my in such bad taste but I can sense when grades are inflated by individuals. I've been there where I've wanted it to be harder cause I've got some emotional attachment to a route.
I applaud these inspiring new routes, just want some context to the grading.
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Duma. Why the prompt punter point. I'm highlighting something that can be talked about no?
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To be fair to Jordan, he did question the wisdom of giving something a high grade without first having done a load of stuff up to and including that standard, which is fair comment. You can grade something as honestly as you like but if you're giving something X grade having not done a load of other Xs or thereabouts then you take that risk, as you're not speaking from a position of great personal experience.
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This is all getting :offtopic:
It's not the fact that somebody got the grade of an FA wrong - which has been going on for ages. Grading FAs is extremely difficult. In my lowly and small experience of it I have generally got it right, but in some cases I have forced myself to knock up to two grades off how hard I actually thought it was to compensate for the "FA factor".
It's not got anything to do with the new route. Because what any controversy here is about is that some people don't like what Joe represents i.e. a climber who is not operating at the top level of the sport, who has attracted some sponsorship because of an enthusiastic social media presence. There's a different thread for that. I do hope that if people want to discuss it, that they remember that there is a young lad on the receiving end of it, who is likely to come across this thread, who might already be feeling chastened that one of the top 5 climbers in the country has downgraded his opus.
To be fair to Jordan, he did question the wisdom of giving something a high grade without first having done a load of stuff up to and including that standard, which is fair comment. You can grade something as honestly as you like but if you're giving something X grade having not done a load of other Xs or thereabouts then you take that risk, as you're not speaking from a position of great personal experience.
This is a fair point, but in the situation described above the climber is sometimes vindicated. AndyF hasn't called Franco out on any of this new route grades in a while!
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Guess big number = more money/fame. Who'd blame them.
Hey Jordan, I've never met you but that kind of throwaway cynical statement is what increasingly puts me off the British climbing scene. I spoke to Joe before he did it and he genuinely thought it was 8a+ climbing and didn't trust the gear. He's young and clearly a bit inexperienced. Cut the guy some slack FFS. Anyway, good effort on your repeat.
What T_B said - did you bother to read any of the thread before slagging the guy off?
In Nike Air's defence, this Joe chap does have a track record of misrepresenting his achievements online to get more followers/fame :shrug:
I dunno, a new E7 gets done and there's quite a bit of hype - because the climber thought it was harder (as often happens).
There's a valid point here at how the climbing scene recognises what's worthy/significant. What's significant sometimes isn't what's actually reported as such - as most people know but could be mistaken for forgetting if they read the self-reportage from various climbers over the years, regurgitated verbatim in the media. This trend is continuing with the rise of social media and 'sponsored content'.
None of that is a personal dig at JH. It's cool doing new routes and that should be applauded. But all the fuss in the climbing media is unjustified when they aren't actually significant routes. A bit of breathing space/time lag between an FA's breathless reportage on their own activities and the main online/print news sources actually reporting would help objectivty. Rather than the rush to report asap in a chase for clicks.
Funnily I was just chasing up my emails this morning and clicked on the latest BMC newsletter. There's an interview with the first ascensionist. You can decide for yourself how much the FA pushes himself online via blogging, instagram, facebook and films; whether that's to pursue sponsorship or whatever else.
The first in our mini-series profiling the young guns rocking the scene right now. 22-year-old Joe Heeley offers some beta for Eyes Wide Shut, the new E9 he's put up at Dovedale, some advice on how to get into new-routing, and talks about the mental side of climbing, how he trains, the role of social media at the top of the sport, and why the future of climbing could be indoors.
A modern youth, fluent with all social media channels, as well as blogging, photography, and filming, he's already been snapped up for sponsorship by a host of brands. I'm sure there'll be plenty more headlines about him in the future; in the meantime you can watch Joe train, get jealous about his climbing and find out what he had for breakfast on his website, Facebook page, Twitter or Instagram feed.
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Bloody hell, leave off Jordan a bit yeah? Didn't see you all rushing in to defend Pearson when Dave Mac ripped the Walk of Life grade to shreds with no tact whatsoever.
People get things wrong, fine. From my armchair I thought that was an incredibly bold grade to stick on something when you've no hard limestone trad experience and don't route climb but I would've been perfectly happy for Joe's grade to be validated. I know he said about not being sure etc. but that didn't mean he had to give it E9. Tom said he wasn't sure about Final Round so he gave it HXS, other people in the past have given a grade range or no grade at all.
Joe made his video, gave it E9, sent it to UKC etc., he actively chose to make it a big deal and opted in to the attention and scrutiny that comes with that. I'm perfectly sure he can cope with Jordan giving an honest appraisal of the difficulty. Life goes on and I'm sure he's got plenty of other things to climb.
Ridiculous that Jordan is getting shit from some people on here. Congrats on the repeats, particularly Final Round, that looks one hell of a stern proposition.
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I don't think people realise just how good Jordan is.
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Bloody hell, leave off Jordan a bit yeah? Didn't see you all rushing in to defend Pearson when Dave Mac ripped the Walk of Life grade to shreds with no tact whatsoever.
People get things wrong, fine. From my armchair I thought that was an incredibly bold grade to stick on something when you've no hard limestone trad experience and don't route climb but I would've been perfectly happy for Joe's grade to be validated. I know he said about not being sure etc. but that didn't mean he had to give it E9. Tom said he wasn't sure about Final Round so he gave it HXS, other people in the past have given a grade range or no grade at all.
Joe made his video, gave it E9, sent it to UKC etc., he actively chose to make it a big deal and opted in to the attention and scrutiny that comes with that. I'm perfectly sure he can cope with Jordan giving an honest appraisal of the difficulty. Life goes on and I'm sure he's got plenty of other things to climb.
Ridiculous that Jordan is getting shit from some people on here. Congrats on the repeats, particularly Final Round, that looks one hell of a stern proposition.
Pretty difficult to disagree with that
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Joe made his video, gave it E9, sent it to UKC etc., he actively chose to make it a big deal and opted in to the attention and scrutiny that comes with that. I'm perfectly sure he can cope with Jordan giving an honest appraisal of the difficulty. Life goes on and I'm sure he's got plenty of other things to climb.
There's two separate issues there though. Nobody is going to criticise Jordan for giving an honest appraisal of the grade, and I'm sure Joe will cope with that just fine. There's then the inferences being made about Joe's character, and his motives in applying the grade that he did, which is a completely separate discussion, and one that, if it is to take place at all, should be carried out with some sensitivity. I only say this because I know from private conversations that there are one or two climbers out there who find Joe's social media presence distasteful and would find some schadenfreude in seeing him publically humbled. I hope the climbing community can have a bit more decorum than that as it's a bit ghoulish.
I think that makes sense? Ya dig?
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Duma. Why the prompt punter point. I'm highlighting something that can be talked about no?
Of course. But you chose to highlight it by implying that Joe had deliberately overgraded this route for fame/money - the first page of this thread along with the vid shows pretty clearly his thought process and it seems sound. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing the grade's been corrected, but I'd rather it went down than it was undergraded and someone went for it and hurt themselves. Don't like the idea that people shouldn't be giving stuff grades if they've not climbed lot's of other stuff at that grade in the area - just be honest about the style and your experience - which he was!
I have never met Joe btw, and have no experience of his social media presence.
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I guess the prefix of " do you think ..." would have been more peaceful introduction to my brain fart. :thumbsup:
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What T_B said
+1
Sorry Jordan. Well done with the repeat. Good to see a great new route getting the attention it deserves.
I felt the same way about James Pearson's efforts on The Walk of Life. Such a great effort to go out there and get it done.
When you've put up a new route that you honestly think is great, it's easy to get wrapped up in your own hyperbole, enthusiasm and celebration.
If there's speculation over "competitive grading", of course there can be just as much hidden motive in down grading a route. We're often not even aware of our own motives anyhow.
Joe could have written this one up in the Pembroke new routes book, and avoided any controversy ;D
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This is a fair point, but in the situation described above the climber is sometimes vindicated. AndyF hasn't called Franco out on any of this new route grades in a while!
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Only because I didn't know he'd done any. He got one right. Woo fucking hoo, I still think some of the older grades he gave are completely bollocks and you know why.
Any way, well done on the repeat Jordan and the honest opinion of the grade.
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I don't think people realise just how good Jordan is.
That's probably true. And it's partly because because Jordan and the other genuinely talented wads like him are dots in an ocean of keen as mustard climbing 'athletes' and 'ambassadors' who seem to want to go out of their way to self-publicise everything in order to seek recognition and the sponsor's eye.
E7s/8s have been FA'd in their hundreds for over 30 years, more recently by all sorts of relatively ordinary climbers. In a meritocratic scene that ascent wouldn't merit a fanfare or recognition beyond your mates and a few locals. Unfortunately (I think) we have a climbing scene that rewards being a massive self-publicist above being a brilliant climber. It isn't schadenfreude to point this out.
Jordan should be applauded for offering an opinion that helps to keep people honest; and not diplomatically declining to suggest a grade thus giving the appearance of being the guy doing 'bold E9 in the wet'.
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I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..
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I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..
Fair play to him, I'm thinking..
It's what sponsors want. Get out there, do something different, celebrate what gets done. We're also disregarding Joe's approach to the route, how hard he found it. That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to.
Repeating sports routes at grades that were established 20 years ago probably isn't of interest to many people (?).
I doubt that JH went out of his way to overgrade his route. It's probably E8 anyway.. I didn't want to say anything too negative initially, but my only nagging thought was that some of the pro on EWS was too sketchy. Very small wires in limestone often blow out, and I thought that might make the route a crap proposition as an on-sight. The fact that the gear is better than it appears in the video, sounds great for the classic status of the route. There aren't many good new routes of that ilk being established.
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"first go no falls after top rope inspection."
Is this just worked it on a top rope and after 'x' number of sessions did it without falling off?
Or is it somehow different / better?
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Just out of interest, did anyone other than Jordan repeat Nik's Exodus at Kilnsey:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22256.0/all.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22256.0/all.html)
Limestone trad, Nik thought F8a+ climbing with spicy fall potential. Jordan went in for quick repeat: F7c with bomber gear.
As ever. I always suspect the middleground is the truth: first ascents can be over-graded because the first ascensionist can't help but factor in the travails of developing the route (cleaning, uncovering holds and protection placements) into the perceived difficulty level. And... Jordan is very, very, very, very strong.
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That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today ;) :smirk:
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I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..
Fair play to him, I'm thinking..
It's what sponsors want. Get out there, do something different, celebrate what gets done. We're also disregarding Joe's approach to the route, how hard he found it. That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to.
Repeating sports routes at grades that were established 20 years ago probably isn't of interest to many people (?).
I doubt that JH went out of his way to overgrade his route. It's probably E8 anyway.. I didn't want to say anything too negative initially, but my only nagging thought was that some of the pro on EWS was too sketchy. Very small wires in limestone often blow out, and I thought that might make the route a crap proposition as an on-sight. The fact that the gear is better than it appears in the video, sounds great for the classic status of the route. There aren't many good new routes of that ilk being established.
No, people aren't *that* interested in repeats of sport routes at grades that were established 20 years ago.
And here we've got two trad routes. Each route seemingly about as difficult. Each received about as much publicity as the other (from what I can gather on my rough off-the-cuff-ometer after a glance today).
But only one route is actually significant - 8b on trad on limestone! As you'll know that isn't some 20-year old has-been grade for limestone trad (or any trad), that's quite cutting edge.
The other route is reportedly 7c/+, on ok gear. That's 20-30 year old standards and acheivable by amateur punters these days. Not even sponsorship or a film-crew required!
But, going off the amount of self-publicity, twattergrambook activity and associated media coverage/interviews etc. you'd think the two routes were comparably significant achievements in climbing.
It kind of goes to the heart of why a lot of people are jaded and fed up with sponsored spraylords and lasses. You've got to admit the whole self reportage social media thing and make a film about everything is a bit of a massive piss-take to put it mildly.
I don't know you, but I find it hard to believe you honestly think 'fair play' for someone unashamedly pushing their profile to the max just in order to grab some climbing sponsorship and recognition, without backing it up with concrete climbing achievements of some significance? I don't. I think 'that's bullshit. Why bother?'.
Fair enough undoubtedly well-intended bullshit by someone psyched for new routes. And no doubt a consequence of the ability these days for anyone who wishes to publicise any insignificant act to do so like never before; but with the result that polished presentation may garner as much recognition as something of genuine substance.
The old line 'That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to'. Well yes it is. But so is onsighting VS but I don't see 5.10 lining up to sponsor Offwidth.
(no slight intended OW - you just sprang to mind as someone on here who climbs VSs!)
*Unless they happen to be 50 year-old ledges, or female, or have spent 8 years trying a route of a grade that was established 30 years ago. then it's still interesting.
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Re "people aren't *that* interested in repeats of sport routes at grades that were established 20 years ago".
What I'm referring to, is the notion that many people have, that sponsorship is some how a just reward for a higher number. It doesn't follow; firms support climbers in order to increase brand awareness, to shift product. There seems to be so much jealousy flying around. I'd just rather applaud the effort of going out there and doing something a little different. I've always thought that it's that spirit which is most marketable anyway.
I suppose I'm not comfortable with the put downs. The most amazing thing for me when I moved to Sheffield 30 years ago, was that it seemed no-one really gave a flying fig about the grade you climbed, a burning keenness was all that mattered. A shared enthusiasm.
What is it saying, if people are so concerned about the attention that others get, that it outweighs their own motivations for climbing - and sharing that with others?
If I felt that JH wasn't in fact as keen as mustard, then perhaps I'd feel there was a problem - but whose place is it to make that call anyway? Here we have two interpretations of the route, from two different climbers, each with their own motivations, and I can imagine that the truth lies somewhere in between.
Of course everyone likes a bit of attention, but there seems to be climbing and commerce, which are two different things. I suppose I'm applauding the former here, but it's the climber who is sponsored, after all, not the routes climbed. Joe marketing his exploits, is a greater problem for some than others, I just find it incredibly mean spirited for people to chop others down at the first opportunity. What's that about?
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I'd actually never heard of this guy before this thread. After googling him I was quite surprised that he was receiving sponsorship.
I guess this is the new brand ambassador mold, above average at climbing, an engaging personality and heavily involved in social media. If this is what the brands are looking for, then I can't fault the lad for taking the opportunity.
However if you do a 1st ascent, give it a big grade with very little experience to back it up and then spray it all over the internet, you have to expect to get publicly called out when your grade is way out.
Personally if it was me (and I got my sponsorship deals more through what I did on the internet than what I did on the rock), if a big downgrade happened, I would expect people to think that I inflated the grade for publicity. After all they don't know me, all they know is i get my sponsorship through promoting myself and my sponsors brands.
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That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today ;) :smirk:
Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..
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I think we need some cast iron unedited video footage that this has gone off topic before we can make calls like that.
THIS IS IMPORTANT after all...
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That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today ;) :smirk:
Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..
Maybe he thinks they're crap.
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That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today ;) :smirk:
Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..
Maybe he thinks they're crap.
Maybe life is just to short.
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A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.
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DaveT -
That's a pretty standard response, the 'jealous' one.
It isn't 'mean spirited' and there's zero jealousy - from my end at least, can't speak for anyone else's motivations. I earn too good a wage doing a proper job and get far too much time off to climb at a level I'm content with (new routing whenever possible) to be jealous of any climber working a shit job spending hours on social media trying to create an image. I can't think of anything less appealing than trying to sprinkle glitter over a turd on facebook.
I'm pointing out that the situation around 'profile' in climbing is absurd.
Climbing is 99.9% an amateur activity. It's absurd that average climbers are now calling themselves 'Sportspeople', when they're at the same level of competence/ability as hundreds of everyday climbers with full-time jobs who just 'go climbing'.
I find it ridiculous dedicating significant time into what would have been called PR, and engaging in that kind of social-media language - you know the type, that portrays what they're doing as significant. Attaching brand labels to activities to lend them greater credence. It's misrepresentation of yourself, your skill level, and the whole activity of climbing.
It takes thousands of hours and years of practice to get to the ability level of the real cutting edge atheletes in a sport. It's like that for trad, sport-climbing or bouldering. Calling yourself a 'sportsperson' and then instabooking everything, in that 'I'm so lucky to be doing xyz' language is just bullshit, unless you're the real deal. Even then it's mildly off-putting!
Maybe I'm wrong and we're all semi-professional 'sportspeople' now.
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A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.
Very true. So when are you going to leave the moors and try something outside your comfort zone?
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A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.
Very true. So when are you going to leave the moors and try something outside your comfort zone?
Following on from DT90's comments about people going out and doing things and other people being mean spirited, etc.
Andy, can you please stop with all the Moors bashing. Thank you. :kiss2:
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A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.
#cough# Dangermouse #cough# :whistle: I havent forgotten that uneaten hat of mine
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Climbing is 99.9% an amateur activity. It's absurd that average climbers are now calling themselves 'Sportspeople', when they're at the same level of competence/ability as hundreds of everyday climbers with full-time jobs who just 'go climbing'.
Not fussed about commenting on the rest, but this general point from Pete is a fair one. Climbers only became "athletes" after the invention of Facebook. Despite doing nothing different from Kirkus / Brown / Fawcett through the ages, or indeed most weekend warriors down the wall. I too find that annoying.
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He did kick the gear out. Maybe that was the E9 bit?
I promise we've all been there...
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Just an aside about the Moors stuff. Andy's comments are pitiful. Tom Randall and Birkett have been there and confirmed the stuff is legit. Not to mention that Dave Warbs has climbed a load of the same stuff as Franco and isn't shy of tricky routes outside the Moors. The idea that you would write off a huge number of significant new routes, many of which look very very good, because somebody hasn't done any hard routes near Sheffield is ridiculous.
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Just an aside about the Moors stuff. Andy's comments are pitiful. Tom Randall and Birkett have been there and confirmed the stuff is legit. Not to mention that Dave Warbs has climbed a load of the same stuff as Franco and isn't shy of tricky routes outside the Moors. The idea that you would write off a huge number of significant new routes, many of which look very very good, because somebody hasn't done any hard routes near Sheffield is ridiculous.
Since when has proximity to Sheffield been important? I have agreed that at least one of his routes/highballs is the right grade, so well done. However, his persistence to give his own routes vast numbers without any evidence of benchmarking outside his own patch will always raise eyebrows and get people asking questions. They may well be exceptional routes, and the right grade, or even harder, but the doubts will continue until he does a route, or routes outside the moors which are recognized as a national standard.
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[quote author= However, his persistence to give his own routes vast numbers without any evidence of benchmarking outside his own patch will always raise eyebrows and get people asking questions.
Raise eyebrows then. Don't imply some kind of moral failing.
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As ever. I always suspect the middleground is the truth...
And... Jordan is very, very, very, very strong.
This.
Also i don't know this Joe Healy guy, and indeed hadn't heard about him before this route, which suggests either i'm wildly out of touch with the climbing 'scene' or he's not the massive spray-whore that appears to be suggested. Either of which could be the case :shrug:
Nice repeat Jordan.
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If you stay off facebonk and instagram you probably wouldn't notice Nik. I don't partake myself, but often get sent - by n.wales's finest agent provocateur - screenshots of some spraywhore or other's latest adventures. It's as if there's two worlds in climbing now, the real one with everyday people climbing hard just about every weekend somewhere in the UK; and the social media one where it seems driving up the road to go on a climbing trip is cause for #insert_brand_name_here and #my_passion_is_self_promotion
My points aren't directed at any one person but the general trend of social media 'profile-raising' bullshit.
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I agree with everything that you've said, Pete, but there's a thread for that:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26882.325.html
This thread is about a particular route in the Peak, put up by a particular person. Let's not make it personal.
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Fair enough sorry I'd forgotten about that thread. Mods split?
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I don't think people realise just how good Jordan is.
+1
Don't think you can really criticise the only repeat ascentionist for having an opinion on this.
JH sounds like he wants to forge a career using the tools at his disposable. Fair enough. A grading consensus will emerge whatever is on Instagram.
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Hi Pete.
I can imagine that you think I'm being a bit disingenuous in my responses, and to a certain degree that might be correct - you're addressing some things that I'm not, but I don't think I'm as directly opposed to your position on those issues as you might think.
Overall though, I feel we live in a time and culture (which is too pitiful to warrant being called a Zeitgeist) which is predominantly motivated by self interest, and gaining advantage over other people. In my post, I responded to the overriding sense of toxic put down which often persists.
For me, getting out there, getting something great done in a principled style and celebrating the fact in what I think was an honest way, seems so much more important - and worth applauding, considering how often efforts are ripped apart on the internet.
I think we can forget some of the aspects of the internet which have been around longer - e.g. forums like this - and have started to believe that the virtual world now only exists on social media sites, F book, Instagram etc.
I wanted to applaud what I felt was the merit in what was being done.
Here was an effort that I sensed the wolves were circling around, salivating for some meat.
For me, the other issues surrounding publicity on social media sites, is a current but separate one. Perhaps it's contrived for me to separate it in that way. However, much of your own position seems directed at a perceived injustice surrounding who is recognised and applauded, and who isn't.
Back in 1984, I went to the Brenin for a rock course. We were talking about guidebooks, and Malcolm Campbell made the point that the authors (Paul Williams et al) of North Wales Rock Climbs were uncomfortable with the name of the publishers "Extreme" being emblazoned on the cover. They felt it would put people off buying something they couldn't relate to - and that was just a guidebook. Unfortunately, there will always be more money to be made selling margarine over butter, cagoules more than cams. It's the way of the world, and what's easier to relate to will always be what manufacturers prefer to pedal.
Your main issue is with truth though isn't it? So much gets twisted these days. It seems pathetic, what some people get up to, to put themselves at the centre of the shot. There is a big issue there for me too; routes get frigged in ways that just wouldn't have been acceptable a few years ago. That was how I interpreted the name "Eyes Wide Shut", and I found the approach taken - no pads, trad route etc - really refreshing. It was also clear that Joe found the route hard. In some ways, the number almost seemed irrelevant. For me, there was some integrity here, and that can go a long way if nurtured carefully. I'd like to think that some of the other points, Joe might take on board and consider, but that's always more likely when issues are addressed less aggressively. I hope he's not put off establishing other good new routes!
I'm not particularly aware of what gets publicised on social media, and don't in any way feel that it "defines" who I am/what I am as a climber. What that is, in public perception, is influenced in part by what we each do, but there's always been the Cliffhanger effect, and the public never do understand really do they?
I've always felt there's a degree of emotional isolation in there too, which probably fuels some of our consternation, but that's definitely a different topic!
Dave.
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Joe is a good lad, and a strong lad. Repeating dangerous stuff doesn't really interest him too much, he said he wanted to push himself on new stuff.
He's bouldered 8A, but not sport climbed too hard, maybe 7C, so this was a step up for him in terms of both sport climbing difficulty and trad (I think he's climbed E8 in the past but don't quote me). So he approximated, I think from knowing him he did it with clear conscience.
He's a bit of a Facebook/sponsor whore but he's fairly pragmatic about it. Making a living without feeling a bit dirty at some point is a rare gift.
I think it's all a lot more simple and chill than this thread has made it :)
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Dont hate the player, hate the game
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Do we have a two-ascent consensus on the star quality yet?? It does look very good and given it's fighting an uphill battle against the inherent awfulness of Peak Limestone, that is something possible more notable than the downgrading??
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This thread highlights some of the best, and perhaps more of the worst, things about climbing.
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This thread highlights some of the best, and perhaps more of the worst, things about climbing.
Great input to the discussion.
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This thread highlights some of the best, and perhaps more of the worst, things about climbing.
Great input to the discussion.
Thanks. It just makes me a bit sad.
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Go have a cry then ;)
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Thanks for your thoughtful post Dave, here's a few more thoughts in reply.
Yes for me the instagram/social-media whoring thing is about truth.
But it's also about what gets given recognition in climbing - people who give back as much as they take, versus people who just appear to want to take.
To put that in context - yesterday I visited an esoteric crag on the Little Orme called the allotment to give a mate a catch on his newly bolted project. The allotment is one of those crags on n.Wales limestone that take a little effort to climb at – a short ab in and a jug or climb out; also the ground is a little spongy from the squadrons of shags (not cormorants, you always remember your first). It's a venue where finding a belay is never going to be a doddle.
Luke’s new route is brilliant. A genuine three star gem, rising traverse above a roof. Cool visual line, great rock, and brill technical moves make it a proper classic 7c in waiting. And it turns out he’s been a busy man developing routes all over this underdeveloped crag. A good tecky 7b (sandbagging sod!); a re-equipped 2-3 star 7a; another 7b+ in development and a 6b+ warm-up. All bolted by Luke (except the 7b+ by, ahem..). On a crag most sport-climbers would balk at even visiting lest developing.
So I’m stood there belaying and looking around, knowing how much effort Luke’s put in to develop new routes and re-equip teh old ones at this crag, and I’m thinking not for the first time that this right here is the lifeblood of climbing. This is what climbing exists on. Routes. New ones. Good ones. Poor ones. Bold ones and safe ones. And information - inspiring guidebooks and topos.
Yet you don’t see much recognition - in our mags, online media or by the climbing companies - for this work which is so essential to the scene. You rarely hear about this stuff but it used to be there'd be a 'new routes/regional news' section in the mags of old. Because someone realised that's what really makes the scene tick and it's what keeps people psyched to climb - new routes are like new partners it's the coolridge effect in action.
BTW there's still plenty of 8s to go at the allotment - come on instagram-heroes, where are you? Too much real effort for a low return of clicks on time invested of course..
The true legends in climbing climb at cutting edge levels of difficulty but also put up inspiring cutting-edge new routes and propblems: Kirkus, Brown, Livesy, Fawcett, Dawes, Moffatt, Moon, Gullich, McClure, Sharma, Ondra. All the greats made/make major contributions to the crags. What would climbing be without its routes and first ascensionists? A lot of plastic and repeating the same old things.
But the self-serving blowhards of instagram seem to me to be a new and different species entirely. They appear to want to use climbing as a vehicle for self-promotion and take from it whatever they can get without contributing much back in return. Videos and images are used to image-craft their climbing which is then used to 'enhance their social media profile' in an effort to be piggybacked by whoever want their brandname on it. Cheers easy. It could be any activity really, doesn't need to be climbing, as long as it benefits the individual and the sponsor.
In the rare instances social-media whores actually contribute something concrete in the form of a new route or a some other contribution to the wider 'scene', they're sure to get a photographer to record it and a often a film crew on hand to release slick film shortly after. You could be mistaken for thinking they're the beating heart of climbing.. but really it's nothing much more than self-serving bullshit.
Maybe I'm too naive for thinking it's a load of bullshit and should accept that's how it is - hate the game not the player. But that seems an intellectual cop-out.
I get that it's harder than before to go out and do new routes these days; and standards don't seem to have risen that much since E9 was done in the 80s.
We've had a smattering of E10s/11s but where's the unclimbed rock for harder trad? I wonder if British climbing is now stuck in a cycle of people instagramming about repeating the same routes over and over ad nauseum. That's a depressing thought.
But in the lower grades, I know I've managed to find 12 quality new rock routes in the 7s/ 8s and E6s/7s in the past 3 or so years and another five or six or seven good quality lines just waiting to be done (winter routes, pah there's loads every year!). It seems to me they're still out there for the keen who know where to look. And look at what Caff's uncovered in the Pass and at Gogarth in the past year or so; and Doylo's just done two new 8c+s in a few months - who else has done that recently, apart from Robins who did four or five! You'll notice none of those names are well-know social-media whores although Caff and Dolyo are a bit loose.
He's a bit of a Facebook/sponsor whore but he's fairly pragmatic about it. Making a living without feeling a bit dirty at some point is a rare gift.
Really? :-\ If you're vaguely self-confident and able I think it's pretty normal to do work that doesn't make you feel like you're whoring yourself for cheap, or over-blowing your achievements; or selling out your values. Again perhaps I'm just naive for thinking it's bullshit to use climbing as a vehicle for self-promotion when you're not also extremely good at it.
Edit - spelling
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Making a living without feeling a bit dirty at some point is a rare gift.
Couldn't really disagree more with this. Maybe I'm a little naive and haven't made much of a living for myself but compromising my own integrity and honesty to get ahead is just not how I roll!
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It would be handy to be provided with a list of 'blow hards' and 'understated wads' so when I'm flicking through Facebook during Coronation Street I know who's achievements it's ok to give respect to.
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I thought the essay by Robin Campbell, titled Climbing Ethics (pp229-235 in the version of The Games Climbers Play I have) which was read to the National Mountaineering Conference of The BMC 1974 contained an interesting perspective and whilst written about mountaineering it also seems applicable to climbing in general and therefore this discussion so I've typed some bits out, but its worth reading the rest of the essay so that these are not taken out of context and the authors full views are understood...
Ethics is a serious business; I should like to say right at the start that I'm quite sure that climbing should not be a serious business. It is clear, however, that many of you in England regard it in this way.
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When mountaineers become excessively serious as well as excessively numerous this, I think, is simply because they wish to invest their mountaineering activities with a significance which their other activities palpably lack. I believe this is a factor which has led to the tremendous increase in outdoor education.
...
I hope, then, that I have made my own attitude to the present concern with mountaineering ethics perfectly clear: I believe it to be symptomatic of a general desire amongst us to invest our climbing activities with a significance which they do not possess and that this desire, in turn, arises from dissatisfaction with our daily lives.
...
I would nevertheless re-emphasise my belief that very little depends upon what view we take of the ethical problems that arise in normal mountaineering (short of grotesque rarities like 'Should you eat your climbing partner?'). If mountaineering as we know it turns completely sour, as I think it will, then this will just be one among many things in the Western World which are rapidly turning sour, in which case it will deserve no undue mourning.
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Luke’s new route is brilliant. A genuine three star gem, rising traverse above a roof. Cool visual line, great rock, and brill technical moves make it a proper classic 7c in waiting. And it turns out he’s been a busy man developing routes all over this underdeveloped crag. A good tecky 7b (sandbagging sod!); a re-equipped 2-3 star 7a; another 7b+ in development and a 6b+ warm-up. All bolted by Luke (except the 7b+ by, ahem..). On a crag most sport-climbers would balk at even visiting lest developing.
So I’m stood there belaying and looking around, knowing how much effort Luke’s put in to develop new routes and re-equip teh old ones at this crag, and I’m thinking not for the first time that this right here is the lifeblood of climbing. This is what climbing exists on. Routes. New ones. Good ones. Poor ones. Bold ones and safe ones. And information - inspiring guidebooks and topos.
Thanks Pete, means a lot.
I think some of us are just wired differently, as you said yesterday most people just want convenience.
I often find myself dangling on a rope, equipping, thinking why aren't many others doing this? This is what it's all about! Yet so many people will never experience it and would never be bothered to go to the same effort.
I frequently tell many people out at the crags the massive effort you've put into equipping, re-equipping and handlining, well, basically everything! Everyone always finds this really interesting, is really appreciative and wouldn't of otherwise known.
It's a selfless act that largely goes unnoticed yet without your input and the other small group of equippers there would next to nothing to go at in N.Wales, that goes for the rest of the equippers elsewhere too. It inspires me more than anyone posting a picture spraying about their latest rings session taking them to "the next level."
The reward of giving something back to climbing far outweighs any amount of Instagram likes.
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Feel like a right fraud after reading this thread! Suppose we all like different things, didn't realise this was how most viewed things though. Certainly not with such strong feelings.
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I'm assuming someone can point Joe towards this thread so he can add his two penneth?
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Couple of quick thoughts - basically I'm with Dave T here.
I waste way too much of my life on FB and climbing sites - and still the name Joe Healy was only vaugely familiar - the thing with anyone who's ott on the whole self promotion through social media thing is that it's very easy to avoid surely? If this sort of stuff irritates you just don't follow them - and they'll disappear from your life. The exception to this is the media sites - but then your argument is with them surely, not the individuals? Also seems sad that all this is going on on a thread about Joe putting the effort in to find clean and do a quality new route in the peak - ie "giving back" which is one of the things pete appears to be bemoaning the lack of?
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What Duma said.
As i said above i hadn't heard of Joe before this thread ( i am on facebook), however i had heard of Pete H and knew something of his massive contribution to climbing.
It's worth bearing in mind that there is also a line to be trod with regard to 'significant' ascents (whatever that means). There has been no shortage of 'in this day and age where every phone can take video everyone should be able to produce a video of their ascents' comments and threads.
So not taking a video is not trying hard enough...
...but editing up a video and sharing it across media platforms is trying too hard?
So where is the 'right' point? You're allowed two cuts to close up and one share on general social media and one on climbing specific media? You can tweet about it twice but only facebook share once?
Or maybe you can just do what you want and other people just have to deal with it.
I'm actually a bit surprised that there is moaning about a media platform where people can post whatever they want and people are posting whatever they want...
Or maybe i'm still bitter after the hopes and dreams ahattering downgrade i was subject to ;)
Nice one to all who have gone out and contributed to climbing in any way, this post is dedicated to you all with special mention to Joe, Pete and Luke. I love you all :)
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There has been no shortage of 'in this day and age where every phone can take video everyone should be able to produce a video of their ascents' comments and threads.
So not taking a video is not trying hard enough...
...but editing up a video and sharing it across media platforms is trying too hard?
This.
Given that EWS was a bolted project and hadn't been done, and Joe is a climber without much trad pedigree, had he chopped the bolts and climbed it without any footage then this would instead be a thread about whether we should believe that he'd done it.
Not to mention in Pete's post that he's bemoaning the new generation not going out and making the effort to climb significant new routes - and yet when they do, and in the folly of youth and inexperience they give it a daft grade, they get accused of being fantasists.
How does one "win" in this scenario?
For anybody vaguely interested in this then I would recommend the first episode of Series 3 of Black Mirror (on Netflix now) which picks out well why Instagram culture is so bleak. It's hollow, it's fake, it's plastic. It's totally fucking empty. I'm going to guess that the people commenting on this thread are generally aged between 30 and 50, with a few younger and a few older. I'm 27, and I think social media became a big thing at about the time that I was 17. To people now in their early twenties, using Snapchat, or Instagram, or Twitter, or Facebook is as natural as breathing, or as natural as speaking to someone in the flesh. A world in which they, as adults or young adults, do not have any form of social media as a significant part of their lives is completely alien. It has never existed, nor will it ever exist, it's here to stay.
And since there are no editors on social media, anybody can set themselves up as a significant climber, and since this is the way in which young people and young climbers view the world, those "significant climbers" become the real deal. It is entirely feasible that in the next generation of climbing's superheros, there will be 20% real significant climbers, and 80% self-made stars/starlets whose biggest contribution to climbing is a daily photograph of their morning muesli.
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And since there are no editors on social media, anybody can set themselves up as a significant climber, and since this is the way in which young people and young climbers view the world, those "significant climbers" become the real deal.
Sorry to take this even further off topic but this reminded me of this article I read a few days ago about a fake russian millionaire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37693095
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Mods, any chance of chucking the relevant posts into the Climbing Today thread?
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There has been no shortage of 'in this day and age where every phone can take video everyone should be able to produce a video of their ascents' comments and threads.
So not taking a video is not trying hard enough...
...but editing up a video and sharing it across media platforms is trying too hard?
This.
Given that EWS was a bolted project and hadn't been done, and Joe is a climber without much trad pedigree, had he chopped the bolts and climbed it without any footage then this would instead be a thread about whether we should believe that he'd done it.
Not to mention in Pete's post that he's bemoaning the new generation not going out and making the effort to climb significant new routes - and yet when they do, and in the folly of youth and inexperience they give it a daft grade, they get accused of being fantasists.
How does one "win" in this scenario?
For a start Will, I'm not posting about just one person. I'm talking about a trend in climbing that a lot of people before me have talked about. Various writers far more eloquent than me have discussed this topic of self-promotion and it's a theme that runs through climbing.
It's perhaps easy to disagree when you're disagreeing with points I'm not trying to make.
Second, I'm not bemoaning anyone going out and doing a new route and I'm not calling anyone a fantasist. I just spent an essay saying that what JH is doing is the lifeblood of climbing. Go out and do new routes. And then call them what they are - in this case standard E7 or 8, and let that be enough.
..Or choose to promote the shit out of yourself and have half the scene quietly thinking it's all bullshit, unless you're extremely flipping good at climbing.
As usual forum talk doesn't communicate the nuances of what people actually think. I'm definitely not a hater.
Edit: Will your description of the differences in culture is most likely accurate. But you can't 'set yourself up to be a significant football player/athlete/boxer/astrophysicist', if you aren't actually one.
The same can and should be true for climbing.
Some of the aspects of climbing that attracted me to it - the freedom, adventure and questioning attitude to authority - is also it's weakness when it comes to holding people to account.
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Maybe all those instatweeters thought this was a real thing;
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/getting-your-name-out-there-to-become-legal-tender-2014102392043
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I guess this is the new brand ambassador mold, above average at climbing, an engaging personality and heavily involved in social media. If this is what the brands are looking for, then I can't fault the lad for taking the opportunity.
No it isn't new. See Gresham, Heason etc. Countless examples. Anyone ever sponsored by patagonia, (They choose carefully who represents them).
What Simpson failed to understand when he threw a wobbly about Heason receiving more sponsorship than than him was there is a lot to be said for just being nice.
Some good points by all on this thread. Climbers are just people, apt to think freely and make mistakes. People climb for different reasons. Some want to be famous, others what to enjoy their past time. For some, being well regarded by their friends is enough. Others simply don't care.
Pete i'm intrigued, do you feel that there is an injustice? Is someone else missing out? And if so, why do you think that is? And are they bitter about it? I imagine not.
Sponsorship is advertising.
Worlds greatest climber takes moral high ground by refusing to be filmed. Dedicated athlete gets out climbing every morning doing dead 'ard repeats and new routes, trains all afternoon in parents garage. Which happens to also be where he lives.
I'd wad him but I don't know which routes he's done and besides, he's still on dial up.
At what point do you draw the line?
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Worlds greatest climber takes moral high ground by refusing to be filmed. Dedicated athlete gets out climbing every morning doing dead 'ard repeats and new routes
How early are we talking here? Did he bike to the crag? Was there a spaniel?
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Edit: Will your description of the differences in culture is most likely accurate. But you can't 'set yourself up to be a significant football player/athlete/boxer/astrophysicist', if you aren't actually one.
I'm not sure this is true as 'marketable' i.e. attractive or socialite or self-promoting sportspeople have always had more media attention and therefore have been able to command bigger purses, sponsorship etc. versus more talented but less marketable ones. Prince Naseem, Audley Harrison are good examples of boxers who generated hype and earned more money than their betters, at least for a while. The difference is now people can self-promote more effectively whereas they used to have to use agents and promoters. I'm sure footballers with better agents have done better than more talented footballers with worse agents. The machinery of fame is just more evident now. FFS, people are millionaires just by talking about their daily make-up routines, with zero talent except for publicising their inanity!
I don't think in any endeavour the world works or has ever worked as a meritocracy of talent. People who publicise and market themselves more effectively will always gain more recognition and money. Achievement in sport itself is not remunerative unless there is a prize purse. How is a prize purse generated? By sponsors who see some advantage for themselves in being associated with the publicity!
It's only time passing that puts relative achievements into perspective. How many artists, writers etc that we now revere died in poverty? I can think of a fair few.
Better for the Climbing Today thread sorry OT :guilty:
For me, anyone putting up new routes is deserving of massive respect as they are expending time, energy, effort and money creating something for others to enjoy, for free.
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Achievement in sport itself is not remunerative unless there is a prize purse. How is a prize purse generated? By sponsors who see some advantage for themselves in being associated with the publicity!
It's only time passing that puts relative achievements into perspective. How many artists, writers etc that we now revere died in poverty? I can think of a fair few.
For me, anyone putting up new routes is deserving of massive respect as they are expending time, energy, effort and money creating something for others to enjoy, for free.
Good post.
Not sure Prince Naseem is a good example, he banged out loads of talent, I saw it. (Awful human being mind)
That is an invitation for some boxing pedant to come and here and tell me how wrong I am.
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I'm not sure this is true as 'marketable' i.e. attractive or socialite or self-promoting sportspeople have always had more media attention and therefore have been able to command bigger purses, sponsorship etc. versus more talented but less marketable ones. Prince Naseem, Audley Harrison are good examples of boxers who generated hype and earned more money than their betters, at least for a while.
Wrote a long reply to this but lost it. In essence, take tennis, the best aren't necessarily those who earn the most.
Anna Kournikova - Net worth in excess of $50 million, less career success than Tiger Tim
Maria Sharapova - Highest earning sportswomen in the world despite competing in the smae sport as the best female sportperson ever (debatable but you get my point). Takes a drugs ban to get knocked off top spot (but only to second)
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To all who are comparing climbing with various sports/sportspeople - ask yourselves how it then works with the 'sportswriters/media/fanbase' - for want of a better word - in the respective sports that you've mentioned.
I.e.
Anna Kournikova: widely held view that she was a better model/advert and relatively shit at tennis, compared to the genuine talent of someone like Venus Williams.
Audley Harrison: ridiculed for being a dopey slow slugger TV 'personality', compared to the world-class talent of someone such as Wladimir Klitschko.
David Beckham: widely accepted that he was a decent player with a stratospheric level of self-promotion - and nobody except his wife would say he was a comparable talent to a truly great midfielder such as a Zineden Zidane, Lothur Mathias, Michele Platini or Cruyff.
You could go on with various names from various sports.
So what exactly are people saying? That when climbers self-promote nobody else - those in the peanut gallery - should point out the disparity between the hyperbole and actual achievement? Where does that leave us? Why should climbing get a free pass? :shrug:
Hype is a theme in climbing just like it's a theme in the rest of life - I get that, I'm not blind.
But it's also a theme in the rest of life that when hype doesn't match achievement it's OK to discuss it. You could say it does and should come with the territory.
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Prince Naseem ...(Awful human being mind)
That is an invitation for some boxing pedant to come and here and tell me how wrong I am.
Prince Naseem is not an awful person. He simply has T.W.A.T Personality Disorder and therefore cannot help doing the things he does
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We're way off topic here, but I think Pete is right - the general public might not know who is/isn't backing up their profile with results in tennis or boxing, but you would expect people into those sports, and the media covering them, to know that. In climbing you do wonder whether most punters have a clue, in part due to the fact that websites like UKC do a very bad job with their reporting. I suspect a lot of this comes down to the ease of putting something up when supplied with a report and photos/videos by the climber, compared with the effort of hunting down comments/photos from more impressive feats by climbers less inclined to push themselves. This creates a slightly weird thing where, for example, it's news for someone to climb an 8B, but not news that a bunch of other people climbed the same 8B in the preceding few months.
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Hype is a theme in climbing just like it's a theme in the rest of life - I get that, I'm not blind.
Yeah it is but in my mind, it's easier to put it right in other sports due to regular competitions that the best take part in. "How many grand slams?" Serena Williams record speaks for itself. "How many gold medals?" Mo Farah can show you his. "World records?" etc etc etc but climbing has this vagueness around it due to the same grade not being equal at all. "9a?" Era Vella or Action Direct :shrug:
The 100m final of the Olympics is pretty definite (bar drugs testing) and the world record too. Climbers can't agree on grades, let alone what makes a someone a 8b climber - 2 tough ones or 10 soft ones? And in climbing, that's where people could play to their particular strengths and promote themselves.
This Joe fella, I'd not heard of him despite being on facebook and instagram. So he cocked up with the grade? He was probably always going to if he's not climbed an 8a route. When it comes down to it, he put up a new route in the Peak which is to be applauded and can anyone really hold him to account for the vagueness of our climbing grades?
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To all who are comparing climbing with various sports/sportspeople - ask yourselves how it then works with the 'sportswriters/media/fanbase' - for want of a better word - in the respective sports that you've mentioned.
Hype is a theme in climbing just like it's a theme in the rest of life - I get that, I'm not blind.
But it's also a theme in the rest of life that when hype doesn't match achievement it's OK to discuss it. You could say it does and should come with the territory.
OK I get what you're saying now Pete. Seemed before you were railing at the unfairness of a climbing world where hypers get more credit than genuine wads. But I 100% agree with this clarification. Extraordinary hype calls for extraordinary scrutiny. The climbing world/media has not worked out a good forum for doing this. Apart from UKB of course.
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I'm assuming someone can point Joe towards this thread so he can add his two penneth?
Why? So he prostrate himself before us for the hideous crime of misgrading a climb and putting an video of climbing on the internet
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Luke’s new route is brilliant. A genuine three star gem, rising traverse above a roof. Cool visual line, great rock, and brill technical moves make it a proper classic 7c in waiting. And it turns out he’s been a busy man developing routes all over this underdeveloped crag. A good tecky 7b (sandbagging sod!); a re-equipped 2-3 star 7a; another 7b+ in development and a 6b+ warm-up. All bolted by Luke (except the 7b+ by, ahem..). On a crag most sport-climbers would balk at even visiting lest developing.
So I’m stood there belaying and looking around, knowing how much effort Luke’s put in to develop new routes and re-equip teh old ones at this crag, and I’m thinking not for the first time that this right here is the lifeblood of climbing. This is what climbing exists on. Routes. New ones. Good ones. Poor ones. Bold ones and safe ones. And information - inspiring ..
I bow to no one in my admiration for the work you've do e for NW climbing, a genuinely selfless act but lets not pretend that the motives of new routers are just altruistic, just because they are not spraying on Facebook doesn't mean they aren't after their own bit of glory even if it is just the lower key but longer lasting thrill of see their name in a guide.
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It's TumblrTuesday if anyone would like to ask Sierra Blair Coyle a question on Instagram.
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Not sure Prince Naseem is a good example, he banged out loads of talent, I saw it. (Awful human being mind)
That is an invitation for some boxing pedant to come and here and tell me how wrong I am.
I agree. Hamed is generally viewed more as a (slightly) wasted talent than an undeserved hype job. He fought all the best, unified most of the belts, and was the lineal titlest - lots of defences against credible opposition. Unfortunately he was a poor trainer (loved sparring but not the road work etc) and fell out with the Ingle gym (bizarre kidnap plot involving Jonny Nelson as I remember?!) who nutured him and kept him reasonably straight. He ended up with Manny Steward, who whilst a great trainer for certain types (rangy, cautious heavyweights), was a poor fit for a brilliantly unorthodox talent. He had already lost his sparkle and enthusiam before he lost to Barrerra. Still; he achieved a lot in a short space of time, just a shame it didn't last longer. Probably a top 10 British fighter ever, and in the International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastota - which given how USA-centric that place is shows that he was rated outside these shores. Ring Magazine rated him as one of the Top 50 hardest P4P punchers ever too.
Audley was just horrendously ill-suited to pro boxing. But his Olympic gold, at a time when GB boxing had no funding and we hadn't had a boxing gold for around 30 years, means I have a soft spot for him. If he had stayed amateur he could have been a GB sporting legend rather than a joke.
Generally, boxing is savagely meritocratic. Eventually hyped prospects have to step up, peope will only pay to see soft match-ups for so long before they want to see a meaningful fight. And, if they are unworthy they are found out. Witness last weekend - reality TV star / gilded amateur Anthony Ogogo was blown out by a journeyman. Frankie Gavin, still GB's only ever World Amateur Champion gold medallist, payed for his indiscipline as a professional and was soundly beaten by the deeply limited Sam Eggington.
The main example for me of a undeserved construct of social media is probably Anna Kournakova - never won a meaningful tournament but was the highest earner in the game due to her looks and consequent sponsorship.
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In climbing you do wonder whether most punters have a clue, in part due to the fact that websites like UKC do a very bad job with their reporting.
Everyone who goes in the Castle thinks that Neil Gresham is the best climber in Britain.