UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Bonjoy on November 07, 2006, 03:10:24 pm
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Snatch! 7c+? is the obvious hard one mover on the front (south) side of the Brad Pit boulder. It has been clean and obvious for a long time now and tried without sucess by quite a few, including new prob machine John Welford and the crimp beast Harris. It involves pulling on to a pair of opposing diagonal crimps on a steep wall and throwing violently for a good lip. I suggested it a while back as a suitable outlet for Paul's brutal wall strength and sure enough he managed it today in one session!
Name: Snatch!, (With brad pitt being on the same block 'an all)
Grade: Grade, hmmm i'm really not sure of that one, maybe 7C but i dont know, it seems so improbable to move until you do.
I registered surprise an obvious well tried project in the middle of the Plantation turned out to be only 7c.
Maybe snatch is harder, i'm unsure? i certainly was fucked afterwards and trying pretty hard.
fuck maybe give it 8a i dunno, i guess its similar to the joker, feels nails hard then it goes and your left wondering why you cant do it everytime, i just dont wanna overgrade stuff...its harder than schoolboy and stuperman i guess.
Sequence: There seemed to be two obvious sequences, one leading with the Left and one with the Right, firstly i tried the left as it fealt about doable but i just kept popping off before my hand latched the jug so i went for an alternate approach, putting your foot more front on its possible to throw yourself wildly leftwards via a kung fu leg, everything opens up as you hit the top and your foot (or my foot) pops, Such a cool move, something like those Loskott dyno's you see pictures of.
Pics: (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/snatch1.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/snatch2.jpg)
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hes on fire.
waddage coming.
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I've got some projects he can have a crack at, I reckon finishing the 'new kitchen door project' is about 8a+ but the 'sash window renovation' is solid 8b.
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dag nam it and I've just finished completely re-doing bathroom for the wife project >:(
seriously thou good effort-would love to see vid-it must be a wicked move....
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Good effort Paul. Looks innocuous this, but it's nails. I remember Matt Donnelly getting very close to this about three years ago. He was going through one of his 'psyched' periods. Don't know if this is noteworthy. Probably not.
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Writing the new guide at the mo - I'm planning to put this in at V11. (V grades not my choice)
Any beef?
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Surely V10 if he gave it 7c+?
(warning- grade geekery is forecasted)
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8a on Paul's scorecard which is more uptodate.
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Fair enough...
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Writing the new guide at the mo - I'm planning to put this in at V11. (V grades not my choice)
Any beef?
Well, give it English 6c if you must Johnny
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One move V11? Surely more than English 6c. In fact given it's a single move, wouldn't it be entirely appropriate to have a tech grade anyway? 7a? 7b? !
P.S. While you're here grimer, can I point out that Swings HVS 5c (between Heaven Crack area and Pedlar's Area) has a bastard hard start for that grade... Cheers.
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What, at HVS 5c you weren't expecting summat hard? Lets face it, its not 6a is it, you should be happy with the 5c I say.
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What, at HVS 5c you weren't expecting summat hard?
True....but it felt as hard as, say, the start of Down To Earth at Bamford - and I like lunging for handjams.
Actually I think I have more issues with the so-called HVS grade. The E1 to the right is piss compared to this.
Anyway, hi-jack over, sorry Paul.
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Grimer, JB, I'm just curious how the decision was made about using V grades (plus Brit tech in brackets) in BMC guidebooks. Who decides and what was the reasoning?
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I thought you were a champion of V grades Simon, V8+ and all that.
Anyway how that NW bouldering guide going ?
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Pub in Leek, few years ago:
"I think we should put bouldering into the guide."
"OK"
"Should we just use English grades. They seem ok."
"No, let's use a bouldering grade."
"There are two systems in use. Let's pick one."
"Ok, we've picked one."
"Whose round is it?"
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Grimer, JB, I'm just curious how the decision was made about using V grades (plus Brit tech in brackets) in BMC guidebooks. Who decides and what was the reasoning?
Plus, at the time there were no guides about using font grades, so these were seen as a bit risky. Secondly with the guides aiming to have a wide appeal, it was always the intention to have UK tech grades as well. Obviously having font and uk tech together is potentially confusing, whereas V grades are obviously different.
Right or wrong, the decision was made back then and the plan is to stick with it for the whole series. I'm not a huge fan but I'd rather have V grades than lose the uk tech grades.
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I take it one move 8as like Snatch! and the Joker will be given english tech 7b?
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My opinion has always been that 7b starts at hard 8a or 8a+. Obviously by definition this refers to the hardest move, the rest of the problem is not relevant for a uk tech grade, this is especially pertinent if used in conjunction with a bouldering grade. Neither The Joker or Snatch! would seem to fit this criteria.
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(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/snatch1.jpg)
Anyone ever tried the line to the left? Looked at this the other week and thought it seemed like a vaguely possible sitstart.
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I thought you were a champion of V grades Simon, V8+ and all that.
Anyway how that NW bouldering guide going ?
As I've said before, V8+ is really just Font grades in disguise. I'm currently undecided, although ultimately more inclined to use Font grades.
The Lakesbloc bouldering guide is still an ongoing project, we've just been too busy with the North Wales Rock guide, that's all.
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The Lakesbloc bouldering guide is still an ongoing project, we've just been too busy with the North Wales Rock guide, that's all.
finish it!!!!!!!
please
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The Lakesbloc bouldering guide is still an ongoing project, we've just been too busy with the North Wales Rock guide, that's all.
finish it!!!!!!!
please
Ditto. I reckon using font is the way forward, we're already converting most grades into font grades here in the quarries...
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Pub in Leek, few years ago:
"I think we should put bouldering into the guide."
"OK"
"Should we just use English grades. They seem ok."
"No, let's use a bouldering grade."
"There are two systems in use. Let's pick one."
"Ok, we've picked one."
"Whose round is it?"
Heh, the cogs and gears of bureaucracy at the BMC seem particularly well lubricated in that case!
For what it's worth, I think the combination of V grades and tech grades are the best possible combination for describing the problem, I'm glad you chose them, it makes things clear and obvious what you're getting.
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glad to hear Fiend.
There were other reasons, of course. As JB said, at the time, there were no Font-based guides around. Now there is one.
So it very much was just a case of select one of them. The reasons I personally favoured the system we used were:
The 'V' bit stops any confusion with English tech grades or sport grades
It's a very clear, linear system
It kept the english tech grades, which i think are still good grades.
As far as I can remember at the time, most areas were using Vs as the grading system (Panton's bouldering column, Yorkshire, North wales, Northumberland) so it makes sense if everywhere in the country used the same system
Compared to the demographic of the market that Ru's book is aimed at, or of people who use this board, the BMC guides are not aimed at the dedicated boulderer exclusively. They have to cater much more for lower-grade climbers as well. Both systems break down a bit in the lower end. In this respect, I feel, the Font system is worse than the V. Font 5 means something to avoid, because you won't get up it. Things only get easy again in the 6s. The tech grade was put in more as a guide to break down the lower Vs, and still is useful up to 6a or 6b, and beyond that, is definitely interesting.
Having said that, nothing's set in stone, but to change a system half way through a series would need a pretty hefty reason. As far as I can see that is not there.
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For what it's worth, I think the combination of V grades and tech grades are the best possible combination for describing the problem, I'm glad you chose them, it makes things clear and obvious what you're getting.
Does it?
Was recently looking at the Rowtor script for BMC guide where you have Yoghurt Hynotist, Bloodfalls, Dissolution, Raw Power, Right arete of Dissolution block the hard way, My Apple, Domes SS and Kim's Prob all at V8! This is covering a big range of difficulty which would be much better represented by 7b and 7b+. The addition of a tech grade adds nothing to the grade as they are all 6c.
I can understand all the reasons for going with V grade, but they (at least the way they are applied in the UK) are still shit in the V8/9 area.
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V8+?
Also some of those are a bit higher than others right? So in the BMC guide they'd get mentioned as highballs so you'd know they were a bit different in difficulty to others.
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The prob being highball has no bearing on the grade given. For example My Apple is hard 7b and would be even if your arse were two inch off the deck. Height isn't and shouldn't be taken into account in bouldering grades.
Any logical reason to use the bogus V8+ anomally is more convincing as a reason to use font grades. I assumed this point had been done to death repeatedly ages ago.
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As far as I can remember at the time, most areas were using Vs as the grading system (Panton's bouldering column, Yorkshire, North wales, Northumberland) so it makes sense if everywhere in the country used the same system.
Not to mention Dartmoor and the Stone Country Guide.
Although the recent SMC guides have gone for UK Tech with Font in brackets.
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I feel a certain groan when the all-important 'Font Vs V' debate raises it's head again. I always Imagine it seems much more crucial when sat in an office that it does when you actually climb the problems. It's a linear scale.
As for your points about My Apple, etc fair enough. But I have had a look at Ru's book. In there, Weedkiller Traverse and Little Rascal are both 7a+. Little Extra and Satin both 7a. In both of these gradeshere seems to me to be a bit of difference in difficulty, to me anyway. Almost as if using Font grades didn't necessarily mean that discrepincies couldn't still happen.
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Was recently looking at the Rowtor script for BMC guide where you have Yoghurt Hynotist, Bloodfalls, Dissolution, Raw Power, Right arete of Dissolution block the hard way, My Apple, Domes SS and Kim's Prob all at V8!
But this is a script written by someone who admits he isn't an expert at this grade. Such things are easily sorted before print. Personally, I'd push one or two of those up to V9 and a couple down to V7. I'd rather have a reduce the scope of V8 a bit than drop Uk grades, for all the points Grimer and I have already stated.
The reasons why V8 is a 'problem' have been done to death on this forum repeatedly. In such moments of confusion I turn, as ever, to the wise words of big Ron; 'I can't make a proper judgement and I don't think the people who write the guidebooks can either.'
Ru's book. In there, Weedkiller Traverse and Little Rascal are both 7a+.
Ah, the book was almost perfect in its initial conception - grit only, great photos, font grades. Then they stuck limestone in and, to add insult to injury, had all the grades revised by a mutant midget.
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Grimer - Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+. The Rowtor V8s are graded correctly (at least according to how i'm told V matches Font) and the discrepancy is inherant because we don't understand or apply V grades correctly in the UK. As many people haven't been to the states they only know how hard a V grade is by have a mental comparative table with font grades. All the V grades we come up with are translated through the font grade medium and because they aren't a like for like match the translation seems a bit messy with V8 being enlarged and V9 shrunk. I dare say UK V grades are more different to US V grades than UK font grades are to french font grades.
JB - Those are the grades after my revisions. Which ones would you move up or down? For my money if any were to change they'd be Dissolution, Raw Power and Kim's Prob up to V9 and Bloodfalls down to V7. Which if any would break into English7a?
The prob with using english tech is that no two people agree what constitutes 7a or above. Surely if something is a one move 8a it must by definition be an English 7b move?
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you cocks, am climbing v grades in hueco. keep them off grit
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It's nothing to do with the grades, it's the graders.
The fact that all problems are either V8 or fb7b+ is down to the fact that this is a stand point in bouldering. It is a linear scale which becomes miniscule in difference from here on in. Holds being a mm smaller or three inches further apart makes a huge difference, and grades can't account for this.
V grades are better because they go 1, 2, 3 and so on without pluses and minuses, simple. You can have any grading system you want, B grades worked fine, you can invent x grades they will all have the same fundamental problems. The only thing I would argue, is that you are asking for trouble when trying to adopt a grading system which was specifically developed for climbing round sandstone boulders in a forest south of paris, for french people who climb sport routes. You'd be just as well to start your own Peak bouldering grade and forget about everything else then just invent lots of conversion charts for people to grumble over.
We like fb grades because 8a is such a good milestone and if you climb a V11 there is always a chance it would convert to a hard 7c+ whhich nobody wants. Way I look at it, take the 8a, the when you've done lots of them start telling everyone it was only 7c+, because that would then be your right to do so.
Cheers,
Andi
Grimer, it was your round...
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The only thing I would argue, is that you are asking for trouble when trying to adopt a grading system which was specifically developed for climbing round sandstone boulders in a forest south of paris, for french people who climb sport routes.
So instead we'll try to use a grade system specifically developed for climbing juggy roofs in the deserts of southern USA, where very few UK guidebook writers have climbed? :-\
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Anyone ever tried the line to the left? Looked at this the other week and thought it seemed like a vaguely possible sitstart.
yes briefly, it seemed v hard.
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Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+.
Eh? Always thought Litte extra was one of the softest 7as in the peak. Weedkiller felt reasonable at 7a+. Haven't done Satin, but for my money:
Little Extra - 6c+
Little Rascal - 7a
Weedkiller - 7a+
Bashers Problem - 7z
Re the grade thing? Can't we just make a huge list of all the problems in the world? This can be constantly updated in a thread on ukbouldering. Each problem can have a ranking. That becomes its grade. We can have hours of fun debating whether problems should go up or down, and working out what grade a problem you've never climbed is by asking someone if its harder than a problem they've climbed that you know is certainly harder than a problem someone else has climbed that they say is easier than the one in question. Simple really.
I'll take on the arduous task of compiling the list, but only because I know how much happiness I will bring to Dense's life. I'm a generous soul.
Grading argument over.
Next task, world peace...
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http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=248;type=avatar
Oh my God, will you shut up about the crunch?
We are stuck with V grades for this guide series. I'd don't care anymore, its just a row of numbers that look obviously different to Uk tech grades. If you're the kind of person who is bothered, you'll buy Ru's guide.
JB - Those are the grades after my revisions. Which ones would you move up or down? For my money if any were to change they'd be Dissolution, Raw Power and Kim's Prob up to V9 and Bloodfalls down to V7. Which if any would break into English 7a?
Basically, yes, exactly that, (though the guide has confused me over Raw Power). I might give My Apple V7 n'all, is it a full grade harder than tierdrop?
If V8 seems to cover too much, shuffle some up and some down. Neither I nor most of the folk buying this are going to give a rat's ass how the easiest and hardest V8s compare to the ones in Texas.
Dare you open the 7a can o' worms again? I don't remember the one move 8a line last time we discussed it, I'm not bothered as long as a consensus can be reached, however I think it'll be too low a level for most people's test.
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Just to expand on the last point, here is my conversion enjin what I have bin usin for rightin guydes.
(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/GRADESCIENCE.jpg)
I personally find it an elegant solution to this age old attempt to square the circle; it has, to my mind, a simple truth to it.
Grimer I will print you one off to fit across your monitor. In RED.
Minor point - if I was to draw it again the line twixt 5b and 5c would be slightly to the left.
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I don't think font grades have a linear relationship with british technical grades viz la statique and science friction are both 5+ but I think the british technical grade would differ substantially.
I've done the odd font 5+ that felt like british 6a/b and the odd font 6a that feels like british 5b.
Why do people have to try to relate two systems that have no internal 'truth'? I was happy tho climb Vx in Hueco, By in colorado and Fz in Font. I never really felt the need to try and work out whether V6 in Hueco was harder than B1+ in Colorado or Font 7a.
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(http://www.zen59200.zen.co.uk/Adam/Galleries/Climbing/GRADESCIENCE.jpg)
My God, the SCIENCE. That's a feersum enjinn indeed...
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It's nothing to do with the grades, it's the graders.
Cheers,
Andi
Grimer, it was your round...
Rounds? Grades? Leek?
It was all we could do to calm the locals down when Dave Garnett pronounced Mow Cop as it's spelt, instead of the "Mao" Cop that we all know it is, he was lucky to get out of there alive!
There were bigger issues to sort out back then, them were the days!
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Grimer - Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+.
nigga you trippin? i agree theres not muich change out of a 7b note for weedkiller, but little extra? maybe its just easier for the tall handsome types with a taste for knitwear.
about the height thing, althought its never written anywhere i always got the impression that font grades in font seemed to take height into account in some way. seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?
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about the height thing, although its never written anywhere i always got the impression that font grades in font seemed to take height into account in some way. seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?
For sure. I always thought that might have something to do with the fact that most of the old highballs got their grade by consensus among short people doing them without a crashpad.
It's bound to change though.
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seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?
I too concur. Highballs are where the easy money is at. I can't actually think of any problems which I've done that back this statement up but I'm sure Dave can.(l'arrache coeur felt well easy for 7c even when it was uber greasy...which is the only reason we didn't do it...Shut up.)
In the peak it is deffo the case, e.g the Alliance, Small is Beautiful, Trellis, Desparete(not topped out but not 7b+), the highball stuff at Rivelin which is all soft.
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Its a remarkable coincidence I'm sure, but all those problems are easier for the tall, and harder for tiny limestone crimp monkeys.
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To quote from the cosiroc guide, escalade a Blea tome 2
"the same uncertain move will be rated much more severely if it can be attempted dozens of times starting from the ground, than in the case where each failure results in a hazardous fall."
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Basically, yes, exactly that, (though the guide has confused me over Raw Power). I might give My Apple V7 n'all, is it a full grade harder than tierdrop?
Hmmm, it certainly felt harder to me (didn't it take you two or three visits to crack?), maybe not a full grade harder than Tierdrop but does it have to be to get V8, Tierdrop being upper middling V7 (top third of 7a+ in Ru's list) so MA only need be a half of a grade harder or more. :-\ What do other people reckon V7 or V8?
Dave - I was shooting from the hip re Little Extra, extemporising wildly on the basis of past experience. I can't remember the last time I did the prob, but it was a long time ago.
I agree that in practice there is a degree of factoring height into bouldering grades, the question being, is this bad grading or should guide writers continue the tradition? Bouldering grades are supposed to be purely a measure of physical difficulty. Things start to get messy when some people start factoring height in and others don't.
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It doesn't really matter, you will never get a proper consensus on any one problem. The point is to try and get them in roughly the right order and then get that across, if it means some become hard V7s and others soft touch V9s I think its preferable to them all being in an all-encompassing V8.
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seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?
I too concur. Highballs are where the easy money is at. I can't actually think of any problems which I've done that back this statement up but I'm sure Dave can.(l'arrache coeur felt well easy for 7c even when it was uber greasy...which is the only reason we didn't do it...Shut up.)
In the peak it is deffo the case, e.g the Alliance, Small is Beautiful, Trellis, Desparete(not topped out but not 7b+), the highball stuff at Rivelin which is all soft.
I think your wrong there Dave, and If I remember back to the wingspan test we all did in magic wood, I seem to remember you winning by a mile which backs up what johnny is saying
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Going back to the Font versus V grade debate for a second (please humour me). The BMC/Rockfax line appears to be that a V grade/Brit tech combination is giving mainstream climbers (i.e the vast majority who operate below V6/7a) what they want. However the Font system actually has more scope for accurate grading of sub 7a problems. For example you can define the difference between a hard V4 (Font 6b+) or a steady V4 (Font 6b). Surely that is attractive to someone climbing at their limit at those grades, no?
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I quite agree Si, its a better system, plus it doesn't stop at 5b/ V0.
However, I don't think it is 'giving mainstream climbers what they want'. They don't know what they want, nor do the BMC or Rockfax. The main argument imo is the lack of confusion with uk tech grades.
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I think there is a danger of underestimating how savvy the average British climber is. Everybody goes to Font, even low grade climbers. When I was last there in the summer of 2005 the campsite was full of British climbers. I didn't see any superstars hanging out (obviously, because it was summer), just ordinary climbers. The same sort of people who camp in the field opposite the Vaynol in Nant Peris, or go to Stanage on a weekend to climb classic VSs.
Surely it is insulting to 'Joe (or Joanna) Bloggs' to suggest that he can't work out the difference between a Brit tech grade and a Font grade, especially when he clearly has extensive experience of both?
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True and to second what was raised by Bonjoy earlier in the....... Experience of climbing in Font - many people have .......experience of climbing in Hueco - very few have in comparison! (i imagine the BMC guidebook writers follow a similar demographic?!)
I for one prefer the Font system, however I have only climbed in Font for three days so i'm not sure you necessarily have to have climbed there extensively to understand the grading system....whether this applies for V grades I could say...
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After all the grade debates I've been through I've realised that quite simply grades don't matter below those at the cutting edge. Who gives a monkeys whether some problem is easy v4 or hard v4? Really, it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if something is soft 7C+ or hard 7C. It only matters at the cutting edge because those are the grades that are pushing standards forward. If I have a cross section of climbers and all ask them to climb a soft v6 and then to climb a solid v6, some will find the solid one easier etc. This just confirms the point that grades don't necessarily need to be all that accurate. Only at the very very top end do they need to be accurate.
When I built my board I started a grading system that was loosely built around the font system. It involves a number and a plus or a minus (or neither). So, a problem that is graded 7 is probably in the range 7A+,7B, or 7B+. I think specialisation of the lower grades (below font 8B) is a waste of time. I also noticed that Moon has copied my grading system and incorporated it into the moon board stuff. I would just like to state that I was first (by a good while). ;D
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Surely it is insulting to 'Joe (or Joanna) Bloggs' to suggest that he can't work out the difference between a Brit tech grade and a Font grade, especially when he clearly has extensive experience of both?
On a point of clarity, having a guie with two systems that run 5a 5b 5c etc isn't going to look good, even if you stick to 6A 5c as they have suggested on 8a.nu
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F7C (6c) looks fine to me. Hardly so bad that you have to stomach a second best grading system to avoid it.
Uncle - Unlike yourself, most climbers are primarily concerned with the grades of things they can climb.
It only matters at the cutting edge because those are the grades that are pushing standards forward... Only at the very very top end do they need to be accurate.
Why?
Besides the top end grades will always be more prone to being inaccurate due to lower number of repeats, sponsor pressure, ego, first ascentionists being at or beyond their normal limit etc. It's only when they become slightly less than cutting edge that these anomallies come out, for example recent repeats of hard trad by Mcleod.
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Why?
Quite simply because we all want climbers to climb harder things. I do anyway, but then again I see climbing as a sport (not a recreational past time). I want to know if Koyomada really has climbed an 8C+. Has he really taken climbing to another level? Has he really done moves that are the new standard of hardness? Has Gaskins really pulled on the smallest hold ever? These things are interesting, because they show progression in climbing. Progression in so many varying factors that have led to another push in grades. That's why it matters.
I've realised that all the things I climb aren't hard. In fact, they are easy to most good climbers. So, it doesn't matter. Grades are now just a way of me being able to judge whether I should drive a few hours to try something. It doesn't matter if it's top end or bottom end of the grade. If it's roughly within my capability I'll see it as worth trying which is why I've given up on grade specialisation and gone with my personal system (on my board atleast!).
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fuck grades, what about quality?
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Uncle - Unlike yourself, most climbers are primarily concerned with the grades of things they can climb.
Beatdown :thumbsup:
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Quite simply because we all want climbers to climb harder things. I do anyway, but then again I see climbing as a sport (not a recreational past time). I want to know if Koyomada really has climbed an 8C+. Has he really taken climbing to another level? Has he really done moves that are the new standard of hardness? Has Gaskins really pulled on the smallest hold ever? These things are interesting, because they show progression in climbing. Progression in so many varying factors that have led to another push in grades. That's why it matters.
I'm interested in that shit too. But i'm more interested in stuff at or near my level, things, pertinant to this, including grades, matter more to me. It's a participant's interest as opposed to a spectator's interest.
I've realised that all the things I climb aren't hard. In fact, they are easy to most good climbers. So, it doesn't matter.
:boohoo: Uncle uncle uncle it's all utterly relative. What's the point in calling 99.995% of climbing easy and 0.005% hard?? Who benefits by defining the world in those terms? Anyone who doesn't climb >8b+ is therefore not a good climber. And I suppose your lumping the rest of us 99.995% of climbers along with your assessment, we're all crap too? Suffice to say i'm not a fan of the hero worship/inferiority complex motif
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Bonjoy. I really do understand what you're saying. But to me there is nothing important about accurately grading something 7A+ or 7B. It doesn't matter. Only the grades of cutting edge routes/boulders matter. When 7A was first established in font this was really important. In 1960 it was really important to distinguish between 7A and 6C+. Now it doesn't matter. In 1983 it was important to know whether something was 8A or 7C+ but now things have moved on and that distinction doesn't matter so much. What matters now is 8C or 8C+. I can understand why you might disagree (although I think you agree).
I'm not into hero worship/inferiority complex stuff either. I have great respect for good climbers but don't worship them. The point of calling 99.999% of climbing easy and the remainder hard is simply that it's true. It's not an opinion so much as fact. Hard will always be a term reserved for the cutting edge of human endeavour. 7A is hard for some people, I know that, but it's not important whether that thing they found hard was 7A or 7A+. Grades are not the (only) way to measure your improvement.
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Ok, we are agreed it's a matter of semantics, it's all relative.
But don't you find it slightly annoying when Steve Mclure moans about how crap and weak he is? The implication being 'I onsight 8b+ and I consider myself weak, you onsight way less than this and therefore...'
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Your hero-worship is deluding you. There is no more quantifiable or meaningful difference between 8C and 8C+ than 7A and 7A+. Neither apply to all people equally.
The point of calling 99.999% of climbing easy and the remainder hard is simply that it's true, oh its so true, those guys, y'know, they're Gods I tell you. Next to them I am nothing, nothing.
What are you gabbing on about? Get a grip man.
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the difference between a 7a and a 7a+ is about 10000 times more important than the difference between an 8c and an 8c+, namely because the former directly effects about 10000 time more climbers than the latter. who gives a shit if somethings 8c or 8c+, it only directly effects a slack-handful of climbers worldwide who can climb that stanard. most of them will get dropped to 8b+ anyway once someone does 9a+.
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But don't you find it slightly annoying when Steve Mclure moans about how crap and weak he is? The implication being 'I onsight 8b+ and I consider myself weak, you onsight way less than this and therefore...'
i don't just find it slightly annoying i find it positively insulting. steve you're not being humble. you're one of the best climbers in the world. your knickname is strong steve, what more do you want? a fucking medal? uncle's got a box of them or so he was telling me.
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don't you find it slightly annoying when Steve Mclure moans about how crap and weak he is? The implication being 'I onsight 8b+ and I consider myself weak, you onsight way less than this and therefore...'
i don't just find it slightly annoying i find it positively insulting.
seconded
not that I'd wish what I've been through on anyone but he should try to comprehend what it's like to be lying in hospital doubting whether you'll every walk properly again then square my utter joy at getting back to sending measly font 6c's....
of course I obvious shit and not worthy of crawling up to a crag in penance....
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don't you find it slightly annoying when Steve Mclure moans about how crap and weak he is? The implication being 'I onsight 8b+ and I consider myself weak, you onsight way less than this and therefore...'
i don't just find it slightly annoying i find it positively insulting.
seconded
not that I'd wish what I've been through on anyone but he should try to comprehend what it's like to be lying in hospital doubting whether you'll every walk properly again then square my utter joy at getting back to sending measly font 6c's....
of course I obvious shit and not worthy of crawling up to a crag in penance....
Have I missed something? Whats with all this Steve-bashing? Yes, he is shit- hot and yes, he does seem to go on about his "weakness" a bit. I always got the impression he was refering to his bouldering, rather than routing, prowess. In addition, in the traditional British idom, I always think a bit of self-deprication is mostly meant in light heart, even though some may use it as a form of spraying. Lets face it, we as climbers all have larger than average egos - its just that some prefer to veil it, whilst others are more honest
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Have I missed something? Whats with all this Steve-bashing?
okay so I was suffering post op pain (six months on) and in a foul mood yesterday (marking mock GCSE scripts will do that to you)...
so not necessarily meaning to knocking Steve but agreeing with the sentiment that it does rankle more than a bit when the massively talented go on about how shit/weak/etc they are, or spout on about how such or such a shit hard problem/route was "easy", Rich P on Careless torque, he might not of found it as tough as he was expecting but easy, but have some perspective.... 8a is/can never be "easy"
sometimes that sense of perspective and what it's like for average punters like us wouldn't go amiss otherwise they're (inadvertently maybe) belittling what we do
we have/need to have our heroes to look up to, that's how life works, it would just be nice if some (by no means all, but some) of them were a little more aware of the effect their comments, throw away or not, can have on the rest of the community who naturally look up to them for inspiration
without trying to gain props for name dropping there are guys and girls out there Sam and Lucinda , Mark and Dani, to inadvertantly pick a couple of couples, who never seem less than thankful for what they can achieve and always seem to go out of their ways to help/encourage and basically spread the love around, that's what a small community based sport/lifestyle like bouldering/climbing needs....
feel free to disagree, I'm sure someone will....
(not say bonjoy is an average punter though I'm sure he's modest enough to believe that he is)
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that's no flame in my book mate.
well made point...
after also being more than slightly fucked up in recent times I also understand the issues of rehabing after major trauma.. and respect is due there also....
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points taken and agreed with...
I didn't mean it to sound like I've got a chip (I really haven't) and I really wasn't trying to be personal, and it's not even that I feel insulted I just feel a little down hearted when some of our sponsored heroes go on about how crap they are or how easy things are (for them)
in answer to gruff yeah I've said I was weak, but pretty much in the context of "too weak to do that..." which I think is a bit different
in all fairness that might have been the context that steve said it in,
(as I said my post yesterday was made from grumps-ville, sorry :-[)
in reality my climbing heroes have always been people I known so I only hear about the things the real big guns say in the press or on here (living in GU6 rather than S7 will do that!) so I guess that sometimes twists the context of the statement
but for one thing if I am feeling like a grumpy bastard I just need to think back six months when things weren't quite so good :)
as for climbing 6c again , it's all indoors above nice spongy mats for the moment but I'll be up in the peak at half term so I'll be able to get a better perspective then (probably in the works if the weather keeps up ;)) - maybe bump into you guys....
(and thanks for the encouragement-it helps.....)
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...find it slightly annoying...
Have I missed something? Whats with all this Steve-bashing?
Hardly Steve bashing ???
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In 1983 it was important to know whether something was 8A or 7C+ but now things have moved on and that distinction doesn't matter so much. What matters now is 8C or 8C+.
Latest issue of Grimper says that 9a is where 'haute niveau' is at. 8c+ is soo 90's.
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Because you're a newbie I'll explain it nicely. 8A represent a bloc grade, whereas 8a represents a french route grade. Now please re-read the above with this information...
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i find it more funny than anything when beasts like steve complain about being weak. it just goes to show we re all in the same boat, apart from sharma of course
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...find it slightly annoying...
Have I missed something? Whats with all this Steve-bashing?
Hardly Steve bashing ???
not so much from your good self, and not quite a metaphorical clubbing anyways - more of a Timmy Malleting
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English grades, English crags fa la la...