UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: seankenny on January 02, 2022, 07:05:06 pm
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I think it would be well worth starting a "Climbers recovering from covid" thread, to cover the immediate states afterwards as well as long dong covid potential. Give that quite a few people have had it and obviously want to get back to climbing effectively soon but sensibly.
:goodidea:
To kick this off, here's what's happened to me. I covid back in March 2020, ill for a month but fine generally fine afterwards. In Aug/Sept '21 I got some kind of virus that wasn't covid (took a test), got better then got sick again, which could have been covid (didn't bother to test that one). Thought I was getting better, went to the wall for a quick bouldering session, put myself in bed for several days. After a couple of weeks I felt much better and tried an hour's walking, same thing again.
Had an x-ray, which found nothing, doctor has tentatively diagnosed long covid, although I also had a vitamin D deficiency, the pills for that have definitely helped but I'm still fairly unwell. I can do very small fingerboarding sessions but I can't really walk for more than half an hour and if I stack up too much effort in one day I have to take to my bed. However, compared to some people's symptoms mine are pretty mild and I'm reasonably confident I'll make a good recovery, but I have no idea how long that will take.
It would be great to hear others' experiences.
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I got Covid end of March 2020, mainly confirmed by the presence of "Covid toes" later that spring. No ill effects until Oct 2020, no idea if I got re-exposed or what happened, but I was up and down for 6 weeks. I had a week's holiday where I was fine one day, and then next could barely string a sentence together / bother my arse doing much other than gentle walks.
Then had 2 weeks where I had to lie down in a dark room after about 45 mins of work as I just had overwhelming brain fog and really poor cognitive ability, it was like I was about 40% as intelligent as normal. Pretty scary, but settled after a few more weeks of taking it easy and treating it like a brain injury. Still no idea if it was linked, or some other issue.
Got Covid AGAIN (no idea where from, not been super cautious, but also not been out to pubs/busy places all that much etc. - perhaps the guy behind us coughing on the bus to Edinburgh airport, with no mask on...). Fairly mild second time round, and managed a PB onsight a few days after so can't have been too debilitating. No ill effects this time round, except for a lingering tickly cough.
Oh, and over the last 5 years by heart PR int has gone up from 189ms to 206ms, which nudges it just over into 1st degree heart block, the joys. Again, no idea if linked, or stress, or aging, or just a fact of life. Still, pushed back my booster to 24th of Jan instead of 28th of December to minimise any potential additional heart stress, as it's known to cause myocarditis in some people. (not a Drs rec, just my own judgement).
Easy to throw every ailment into the covid basket, but on the other hand it is a shitty fucking disease. Wishing anyone with longer term issues a speedy recovery, but also urge to take it easy on yourself and not push too hard.
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This might be of interest
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/08/for-elite-footballers-the-effects-of-covid-19-linger-for-months
(Months after infection, elite football players play fewer minutes and complete fewer passes than never infected players)
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God, that's depressing...
I'm now 3 weeks out from getting it. Feeling ok for short strength sessions but can't do big sessions or endurance sessions yet. Recovery is terrible between sessions, which may partly be due to disrupted sleep which seems ongoing... That said, I set a campus PB the other day, felt like how Rustam (allegedly) must feel - strong but also like I might pass out after every effort :lol:
Predictably, it seems like the less full-body the better, so things like pickups on two fingers (where you're not picking up much weight or stressing big muscles) are a better bet than hangs, which are a better bet than bouldering, which is a better bet than getting pumped... Taking a nap immediately after any exercise (even just lying down in bed for 20 min but not sleeping) seems to help things.
More unpredictably, both me and my wife felt like we recovered fine about a week after getting it and then dropped on a cliff and had some kind of relapse in the next 5-10 days, so others getting it might want to watch out for that even if you feel like you're recovering well. Mine was after climbing (I assume I did too much), but hers was after a rest day so less obvious what caused it.
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Feel free to totally ignore this of course, a d sorry for being a random person on the Internet telling you what to do, but...
It really sounds like you should back off a bit. I know a couple of people who have/had long covid, and they all attribute it to doing too much too soon. If you're still feeling the effects, which it sounds like you are, maybe just do nothing for a bit longer. Doing anything that is leaving you feeling that wasted sounds like a really high risk of making it drag on for much, much longer than it needs to.
Sorry for the preach, and obviously this is just anecdotal stuff, but if you were my mate/family member, I'd be really begging you to stop for a bit.
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That totally chimes with everything else I’ve read and heard about long covid. Lots and lots of rest seems to be the way forward. I’m currently sat on the sofa recuperating after lapping the park twice rather than once… currently feeling okay-ish and I’m pleased to be reading the Gogarth picture book as a few weeks ago I even that would have been a bit much.
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I found a twitter thread which covers a lot of the potential long term consequences of covid;
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1478611650760437765.html
Some of this seems somewhat alarmist and also its not clear whether these clear up entirely after say 6/12/18 months due to the newness of the virus, plus we don't necessarily know how much the level of initial illness impacts, fitness of the ill person etc. Nonetheless it is interesting to see how it can impact beyond the initial sickness. Basically it appears to have whole body impacts including organs and blood vessels etc.
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I’m not climbing at the moment but have been wrestling with symptoms after having covid twice (March and Dec ‘20) and a recent bout of flu in November ‘21.
Tinnitus - pretty bad. Comes and goes and doesn’t keep me awake or anything but it’s there, all the time and I have a few episodes each week when it’s like a scene in a film when a bomb has gone off and all I can hear is ringing for around a minute. Had an MRI and the Doc diagnosed post-viral tinnitus with CV19 as the cause.
Fatigue - it feels like the last eighteen months I’ve had my battery replaced with one that’s lower powered. Prior to covid I was running and cycling though not to any level. Just regular 5-10k runs. It’s been very hard since to gather the motivation to pull on my trainers and go for a trot around the park. In fact I can’t remember the last time I did.
I repaired my pushbikes a couple of weeks ago, went for a gentle ride and was knackered afterwards. But will keep at it, gently building up.
Just started doing some light weights and will be doing some short, very easy runs and will see what happens.
Good luck everyone!
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I found a twitter thread which covers a lot of the potential long term consequences of covid;
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1478611650760437765.html
God, even more depressing.
Ged - you're probably right, much to my annoyance.. often easy to see what you should really do but hard to actually do it when it involves resting!
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I’m not climbing at the moment but have been wrestling with symptoms after having covid twice (March and Dec ‘20) and a recent bout of flu in November ‘21.
Tinnitus - pretty bad. Comes and goes and doesn’t keep me awake or anything but it’s there, all the time and I have a few episodes each week when it’s like a scene in a film when a bomb has gone off and all I can hear is ringing for around a minute. Had an MRI and the Doc diagnosed post-viral tinnitus with CV19 as the cause.
Fatigue - it feels like the last eighteen months I’ve had my battery replaced with one that’s lower powered. Prior to covid I was running and cycling though not to any level. Just regular 5-10k runs. It’s been very hard since to gather the motivation to pull on my trainers and go for a trot around the park. In fact I can’t remember the last time I did.
I repaired my pushbikes a couple of weeks ago, went for a gentle ride and was knackered afterwards. But will keep at it, gently building up.
Just started doing some light weights and will be doing some short, very easy runs and will see what happens.
Good luck everyone!
I have no idea whether you have long covid but it also seems that you have become very unfit due not doing much for 12 months.
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That’s true of course webbo, hence trying to build up slowly. That said, if I hadn’t got covid twice, then the flu and felt totally knackered I suspect I would have been able to stay fitter over the last eighteen months. Working from home has been shit for moving around too… it’s a double whammy.
Also, I didn’t say I had long covid, I don’t.
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No I know you didn’t say you had it. But you were describing your situation after several posts by people who were wondering why they were taking so long to get back to normal and speculating whether they might have it.
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Cool, understood. No worries.
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Just to put a more positive side on recovery. I was out on my bike on 30/12/21 and a guy pulled out from a side road and I went past him. He sat on my wheel for bit the rode a long side and started chatting. At this point I was giving it a bit of stick and talking wasn’t that easy, he mentioned in his telling me of his life story, that he had, had covid 3 weeks ago and he was doing 100K to get his 5,000k in for the year.
He mentioned he had stop for a pasty as was feeling a bit below par.
The gentleman in question was about 60 and riding a fat tyre hybrid whilst I was on a road bike. As much as I enjoyed his company I was glad when he turned off.
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Covid sucks!
Based on personal experiences, I've had CV19 twice and recovered back to normal exercise (climbing, cycling etc.) in about 5 weeks after the first symptoms. I was back doing exercise with less load and less duration in about week 3 onwards, with many more rest days in between than I'd normally do.
Both CV19 illnesses I tried to do some exercise in week 2 and felt terrible straight after. The first time I had CV19 I went for a run after 10 days of being ill, thinking I'd just clean the lungs out... I had to come home early after about 2km and lay on the sofa in a sweaty feverish horrid mess for hours afterwards. This set me back for a few days. This was back in April 2020, when I (we?) didn't know much about this virus.
The second time I had CV19 was in Nov-21, identical symptoms to my first time, and after the 10 day isolation I did a 1hr ish walk (moderate pace, overtaking most walkers, but not fast walk) and came back home and collapsed omto the same sofa for a full afternoon.
My girlfriend has also had CV19, she took 4 weeks off exercise, and it took her about another 4 weeks to get her cycling fitness back, she did this very slowly and slept alot!
I know several people who have had long Covid, they took 6 months to fully recovery.
Since first having Covid it's made me more aware of every cold virus. I've had 2 really bad colds in the last 8 months, which feel terrible! Is this related to CV19 or has CV19 made me more aware?
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I’m not climbing at the moment but have been wrestling with symptoms after having covid twice (March and Dec ‘20) and a recent bout of flu in November ‘21.
Fatigue - it feels like the last eighteen months I’ve had my battery replaced with one that’s lower powered.
I have no idea whether you have long covid but it also seems that you have become very unfit due not doing much for 12 months.
If you've not had covid whilst unvaccinated it might be hard to appreciate how brutal it can be. I once caught a mystery virus in rural Afghanistan which sent me to hospital, I couldn't bear light, couldn't eat and lost a stone in a week - and covid was much worse. I was sick for a month and although I didn't get long covid that time around, on my first few runs afterwards it felt like my lungs were on fire.
Long covid feels quite different, Ben's description of being "low powered" is spot on. You just can't get going. Keeping fit when you've that kind of thing stacked against you is really hard and it's depressing - you can feel you're going backwards - which makes the whole thing much harder to bear. Getting unfit is part of the problem. And sure, you can meet (vaccinated) older guys for whom covid has been barely a bump in the road, I know several like this and that is just great. Most people - 70% to 90% it seems - recover perfectly well and thank goodness they do. Long covid isn't even so much of a thing for the over 60s, the age group typically affected is 30 - 50. But if my own experience is anything to go by, I can assure you that long covid sufferers are perfectly aware that most people get better quickly and it isn't particularly relevant.
I do notice you have form (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30489.msg643223.html#msg643223) in making... unhelpful remarks on this subject.
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So I’m not allowed to offer my thoughts if they are not in line with what you believe.
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So I’m not allowed to offer my thoughts if they are not in line with what you believe.
You offered your thoughts, I offered some in return - based on lived experience of an illness that was diagnosed by my doctor. I started this thread to discuss long covid and how we might get better from it, basically as support for people in a shit situation. You are free to have your beliefs and of course free to post them here if you really want, but I'm not sure what this would prove and perhaps it would be better to start your own thread in which to discuss them?
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What I was offering was mainly in response after abarro stated how depressing it all sounded.
So trying suggest things might not be quite that bleak, doesn’t have a place on your thread.
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What I was offering was mainly in response after abarro stated how depressing it all sounded.
So trying suggest things might not be quite that bleak, doesn’t have a place on your thread.
I guess some people like the positivity of thinking it will get better, but for rothers (me included) when I'm feeling low and bleak about things, someone saying "it's not all that bad, look" just makes me even more angry and depressed.
So as not to turn this thread into a battle of cup half full / half empty, maybe those who have had it bad and recovered can share some experiences on what they did that helped?
For me, with the brain fog, I read up on treating "brain injuries" and acted as if I had one. So when I really started getting a thick soupy brain I just stopped what I was doing (told my work that I was struggling) and chilled out for as long as it took to get a bit of clarity (often 10 mins lying down was good for another 40 mins of work). Apparently the key thing is to not "push through" with coffee / meds and a staunch British stiff upper lip. Be kind to yourself, and try not to worry. It can be a bit disturbing being about 40% as smart as normal, and you do think "is this me for life...?"
First time round in March 2020, similar to J Duds, I started to feel better and went for a 5k run, which felt good. Energetic, breathing ok. The next day was the worst day of any I've had - just flattened and feverish, sweating, shit night sleep etc. Sleep has been one of the things I've most noticed being disturbed.
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So as not to turn this thread into a battle of cup half full / half empty, maybe those who have had it bad and recovered can share some experiences on what they did that helped?
Yes, spot on.
For me, with the brain fog, I read up on treating "brain injuries" and acted as if I had one. So when I really started getting a thick soupy brain I just stopped what I was doing (told my work that I was struggling) and chilled out for as long as it took to get a bit of clarity (often 10 mins lying down was good for another 40 mins of work). Apparently the key thing is to not "push through" with coffee / meds and a staunch British stiff upper lip. Be kind to yourself, and try not to worry. It can be a bit disturbing being about 40% as smart as normal, and you do think "is this me for life...?"
Thanks that is very useful. I am very grateful that I've not had brain fog but in general I'm as guilty as anyone of trying to push through fatigue and feeling a bit uncomfortanble with having a good rest in the middle of the day.
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Interesting posts. Given where I'm at, I find J_duds post quite heartening in terms of having not returned to normal super fast but got there in a not too depressing timescale! Perfect glass at 50% balance :lol:
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What I was offering was mainly in response after abarro stated how depressing it all sounded.
So trying suggest things might not be quite that bleak, doesn’t have a place on your thread.
I guess some people like the positivity of thinking it will get better, but for rothers (me included) when I'm feeling low and bleak about things, someone saying "it's not all that bad, look" just makes me even more angry and depressed.
So as not to turn this thread into a battle of cup half full / half empty, maybe those who have had it bad and recovered can share some experiences on what they did that helped?
For me, with the brain fog, I read up on treating "brain injuries" and acted as if I had one. So when I really started getting a thick soupy brain I just stopped what I was doing (told my work that I was struggling) and chilled out for as long as it took to get a bit of clarity (often 10 mins lying down was good for another 40 mins of work). Apparently the key thing is to not "push through" with coffee / meds and a staunch British stiff upper lip. Be kind to yourself, and try not to worry. It can be a bit disturbing being about 40% as smart as normal, and you do think "is this me for life...?"
First time round in March 2020, similar to J Duds, I started to feel better and went for a 5k run, which felt good. Energetic, breathing ok. The next day was the worst day of any I've had - just flattened and feverish, sweating, shit night sleep etc. Sleep has been one of the things I've most noticed being disturbed.
Interesting re your comparison with head injuries. I've been reading this thread, and although I have not (so far) caught covid, I have had a very serious head injury, and found that my ability to do anything strenuous whatsoever afterwards was severely affected. This was, at its worst, bad enough that having a shower and drying off was noticeably tiring, and a flat 5 mile walk was knackering. The feeling of permanent low power was identical.
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The other day I saw on Daniel Woods' Instagram feed that he had Covid but was feeling OK and training, then in a later post was feeling like crap. Looks like another anecdote of doing too much too soon.
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A study has identified four factors that predict an increased risk of developing 'long covid'. Sounds like covid infection might cause reactivation of latent virus's in some people, including Epstein Barr virus. Other people retain circulating fragments of covid virus. For others it's an auto-immune response. No one 'long covid' then unsurprisingly.
news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-26/scientists-identify-factors-that-appear-linked-to-long-covid?cmpid=BBD012622_CEU&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=220126&utm_campaign=closeeurope
study: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)00072-1
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Personal experiences: infected Christmas 2020 so unvaccinated. Moderately severe: a week in bed but never remotely felt in danger. 2-3 months of fatigue, like a phone with a knackered battery. Fortunately this got a lot better around the time of my first vaccine. The remaining fatigue gradually disappeared over the following 6 months or so. During the fatigued phase I was able to tolerate brief max. hangs type fingerboarding reasonably well but multipitch routes or walk-ins flattened me, the reverse to usual.
Had another viral-type respiratory infection in November/December 2021 and was back to being unable to do anything requiring a sustained effort. LFTs and a PCR were negative but it’s possible I was testing too late.
As of January 2022 my cardiopulmonary system is not 100%. I’m much more short of breath walking uphill or climbing. Until a year ago I happily stomped up steep approaches, crushed the Ceuse walk-in and Mt. Fuji (2300m to ~3800m in 3 and a bit hours). This shortness of breath was noticeable from a year ago after covid and took a further knock recently.
I also seem to be woefully unfit for multiple pitches of climbing a day. Not sure this is covid, old age, or lack of recent training. It’s a bit of a concern as this was previously my signature strength.
Anecdote: as said above, chronic fatigue is sometimes reported as a consequence of doing too much too quickly after viral infections. I’m not an expert in this but it seems sensible to be cautious for a few weeks after a covid episode even if you’re feeling OK.
Professional experiences: I worked with people with chronic conditions and there is an element of loss of general fitness in many with chronic conditions. I’d be amazed if this wasn’t also true with long covid. This isn’t helped by the low mood and the anxiety about activity that frequently come with chronic fatigue. All totally understandable given what people have been through - once bitten - but it can become a bit of a vicious circle.
[Edited adding dates for clarity]
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Ah wow that was grim reading!
So I'm on day 9 of testing positive, its wiped me out way more than I was expecting it to.
Would folk say that around the 14 th day they felt a bit more normal. I feel like a 40 year old rechargeable battery with rusty ends!
I found a twitter thread which covers a lot of the potential long term consequences of covid;
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1478611650760437765.html
Some of this seems somewhat alarmist and also its not clear whether these clear up entirely after say 6/12/18 months due to the newness of the virus, plus we don't necessarily know how much the level of initial illness impacts, fitness of the ill person etc. Nonetheless it is interesting to see how it can impact beyond the initial sickness. Basically it appears to have whole body impacts including organs and blood vessels etc.
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Day 9?!
I tested positive yesterday am. Had terrible night of sleep Monday following wall session in which I felt really strong but got weirdly out of breath a few times. Felt increasingly ill on Tues and thought it was a bad cold. Another night of terrible sleep. Did test yesterday am, spent the day in bed feeling completely broken / very achy / zero energy and bad headache.
Today I feel much better physically, though brain is a bit fuzzy and have a slight echo in my ears whilst talking.
I had both vaccinations but hadn't got around to getting boosted, which obvs now I regret...
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Hey Jordan, I know when I caught it as at work, call that day 1:
Day 2 and 3 no symptoms, was testing daily and negative.
Day 4 woke up with sore throat, tested positive. Ok through the day, but went down hill rapidly in the eve. Terrible night, aching joints especially back, hot and cold sweats, no sleep.
Day 5 still feeling worse than any flu, but slight improvement on previous night. Slept much better that night.
Day 6 better again, like mild flu
Day 7 like a cold
Day 8 -11 pretty much ok, but still testing positive and noticeable shortness of breath. Did a bit of fingerboarding and core stuff during this period.
Day 12 out of isolation, route climbing indoors, took it easy.
Day 13 big bouldering session. back on night shifts that eve. Knackered, but not really any more than normal.
Day 21 shortness of breath finally went.
I had a day or two of feeling awful, but the really noticeable thing that differentiated it from flu for me was how long the shortness of breath hung around. It was two weeks after the rest of my symptoms had gone before I felt like I could breathe fully again.
I'm double jabbed and boosted in December, mid forties.
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Ah wow that was grim reading!
So I'm on day 9 of testing positive, its wiped me out way more than I was expecting it to.
Would folk say that around the 14 th day they felt a bit more normal. I feel like a 40 year old rechargeable battery with rusty ends!
If it's any help that is kind of how it went for me, around 2 weeks of having a really bad sinusy cold and no energy then I got better. I did continue to test positive for quite a while, but got a negative about 1 month later. Apparently you can test positive for up to 90 days but it doesn't really have a bearing on how long symptoms last. Obviously very inconvenient if you need to travel somewhere with testing requirements.
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Ah wow that was grim reading!
So I'm on day 9 of testing positive, its wiped me out way more than I was expecting it to.
Would folk say that around the 14 th day they felt a bit more normal. I feel like a 40 year old rechargeable battery with rusty ends!
If it's any help that is kind of how it went for me, around 2 weeks of having a really bad sinusy cold and no energy then I got better. I did continue to test positive for quite a while, but got a negative about 1 month later. Apparently you can test positive for up to 90 days but it doesn't really have a bearing on how long symptoms last. Obviously very inconvenient if you need to travel somewhere with testing requirements.
Were you still +ve on LFTs? Most places now accept an LFT instead of PCR for travel, as PCR keeps being positive. I hadn;t heard of +ve LFT after getting better...
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Hi Jordan
I’m about 2 weeks after my ten days isolation ended. My illness wasn’t that bad (couple of crappy days) apart from feeling tired/fatigued. Took on board advice and did nothing in those ten days.
Since then I’ve ramped up climbing stuff very gently - but it’s still taking me a while to recover after a session. Bizarrely - I did some one arm hangs/pulls on day 12 and equalled Pb’s… but a big outdoor session on Friday gave me mega DOMs for nearly three days. Since then I’ve not got near those hang results 😁 but went to the wall yesterday and feel Ok today so hopefully getting back to normal(ish).
It’s been a bit frustrating (esp as I nearly did a 7C+ I’ve been working for ages the day before I tested positive - and am no where near that form now!) but thankful so far it’s been a bit slow but progressive recovery.
Take your time, listen to your body etc.. sounds a bit trite but has worked for me. So far.
Wishing you and every one who’s struggling well.
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I'm a self confessed massive hyperchondriac, so any reassurance I can receive to convince me I'm not struck down with long covid would be great! Clearly I haven't got it, but woukd love to hear how others have got on.
Similar to above, my symptoms were never bad, just like a standard head cold. I'm only 2 weeks in, but still a bit rough. Definitely better than last week, but a long way off feeling like doing any exercise. The caveat is we've got a 1 month old baby, so sleep isn't at a premium which may have had an effect.
Like I said, I've convinced myself that I'm not going to get any better and am destined for months of being a tired grumpy twat, so any reassurance that it'll be fine and I'll keep improving would be greatly received!
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Cheers for the responses.
Think personal experiences will help everyone. I once had a virus after a Buoux trip in 2018 that really set me back energywise and also with partial deafness. At least this time round there is joint recovery going on.
I've not really been as snotty as Naomi and she was seemed to get here energy back quickly. I wonder if viral load has a large part to play?
She caught it at the Dentist where she works. They have good measures in place and we think it was only one particular day it was spreading in there so the load was low whereas I had exposure to her death fumes at home.
Symptoms have really been juggled around and from what I hear that's one of the strange things that covid does. Just when my kidney ache has gone and replaced by wierd red snot from deep within its back for another play.
I too like Tom Tom was climbing well just before. Its annoying to let performance slip away but hey hoe.
It's definitely hard to stop thinking about long covid hey.
One thing I did learn about my last virus was avoiding sugar if possible and also sucking on cold pressed coconut oil.
I'll keep trying that now as I've only just recovered from feeling like im in some sort of weird dream. Somewhere between being awake and asleep.
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That's interesting re sugar. I wonder why that is. I don't normally crave or eat much sugary stuff, but currently it's all I want!
Hope you keep improving. I'm hoping some more sleep will help me. It's so tempting to just try and push on and go for a run, but terrified of setting myself back
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I was running a lot in Jan, including the weekend I caught it and the Monday, but haven't run since, as it felt like the thing most likely to set me back. (though I would be happy to run now) Fingerboard stuff felt much less of a load on body and lungs.
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I'm really very very sorry to hear all the tales of covid woe. As far as I understand it scientists think that the vaccine will reduce the likelihood of long covid but it's still a bit too early to tell from the last wave as the official point at which long covid begins is three months after the onset of the illness. Up to then it could just be a typical post-viral recovery I guess.
From reading around this a bit and talking to others, it seems that it's super important to rest a lot when you're recovering. Trust me, you really do not want long covid - I have spent every afternoon in bed this week and the most exertion I did was walking ten minutes with my cousin to get a coffee and also thinking too much earlier in the week. It's serious! It's worth losing a month or two of training to avoid this. Sorry Ged, don't want to pump prime your hypochondria - chances are you'll be fine - I just hope everyone stacks the odds in their favour.
I have found my diet and digestion have changed quite dramatically, too many carbs leave me really bloated and uncomfy, I can't even have a sandwhich for lunch, can't remember the last time I ate pasta. I think sugar increases inflamation so it's definitely worth avoiding.
I've found breathing exercises seem to help. I've used an app called Flourish, it's a bit new agey but the actual exercises are good (if you do all the weird breathing shit right you'll be too high to notice the cosmic consciousness bits when they do roll around), also these guys in the US seem to be doing good research and help for covid recovery, it's not new agey:
https://www.stasis.life/programs
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Were you still +ve on LFTs? Most places now accept an LFT instead of PCR for travel, as PCR keeps being positive. I hadn;t heard of +ve LFT after getting better...
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Well, I was after 14 days at least, but thankfully they then dropped the LFT requirement for returning to the UK, so I only had to do a PCR after return (still positive), so I think the LFT would still have been positive also at that point as it was only a couple of days later. I didn't keep checking the LFTs so I'm not sure how long that would have continued. The line was fainter than the first one I did, but still definitely there. Perhaps if I wasn't very thorough with the swabbing it wouldn't have shown up at all.
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What type of fingerboarding did you do to ease your way back into it?
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Power club 618 and 619 have details, but basically it was the ancap and aeropow repeater sessions from the crimpd app.
I never struggled with persistent low energy or feeling massively wiped out after a session though, so might be too much if you are?
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I found short fingerboard or campus sessions best. Reckon it took me about 4 weeks after isolation to feel like I could got hard on endurance again...
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How ill were you when you had it Alex? And are you feeling 100% now?
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I was what I'd call moderately ill when I actually had it - a few days pretty wiped out watching movies instead of working, plus brain fog for a week or so, but by day 6 after symptoms/positive LFT I was feeling well enough to want to do some hangs... Then ok for a week, then dropped off a cliff and was totally fucked for a few days (negative on LFTs though) - could barely get out of bed the first day even to go downstairs to lie on the sofa, plus very sore throat. Took about 3 weeks to get back to feeling normal again after that set back. I dialled back on the training (partly based on nudges from people like you on here) for that time, then increased again and that time it went ok...
Now I feel fine, as far as I can tell!
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cheers Duma and Alex.
I did dust off the finger boards yesterday, don't think ive really used them since April last year.
Yesterday was the first day I actually felt human enough to do some training/playing. I've now had two negative test days in a row after testing for 9 or 10 days positive, I'm loosing track.
Not sure what I did on the finger boards can be classed as anything like training, but that could be because I've not a clue what I'm doing on that front.
What I did feel as that my fingers felt responsive to what I asked of them and all my muscles seemed to be firing well.
I spent about an hour in the cellar where the finger boards are, I made the rests useful by tidying up the cellar and giving it a good sweeping out. This aspect of the hour felt way more taxing on my body as a whole than the dangles/pull ups and toe touches. Guess bending over and grafting exacerbated the covid dizziness and fatigue.
It all seems to be moving in the right direction, I still feel like an old battery and window cleaning next week will be the test.
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Tested positive today, which is frustrating. It was bound to catch up with me eventually...
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also these guys in the US seem to be doing good research and help for covid recovery, it's not new agey:
https://www.stasis.life/programs
Thanks, that led me to this, which is fascinating:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/unlocking-the-mysteries-of-long-covid/618076/
I've not had Covid (so far), but I had a bout with chronic fatigue syndrome/ME in my teens and still fatigue pretty easily, which makes this all very recognizable to me (and has also made me wonder if I'm predisposed to long Covid as and when I do get infected).
For what it's worth, a friend who has POTS as a result of Ehlers-Danlos syndrome swears by Skratch Labs for helping with her tachycardia; might be worth knowing about for anyone who ends up with dysautonomic symptoms.
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I've not had Covid (so far), but I had a bout with chronic fatigue syndrome/ME in my teens and still fatigue pretty easily, which makes this all very recognizable to me (and has also made me wonder if I'm predisposed to long Covid as and when I do get infected).
I had rather more than a bout of this when I was younger. Having had Covid in the autumn, I am not more fatigued than normal. Whilst everyone is unique, I wouldn’t worry unduly about this.
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I've not had Covid (so far), but I had a bout with chronic fatigue syndrome/ME in my teens and still fatigue pretty easily, which makes this all very recognizable to me (and has also made me wonder if I'm predisposed to long Covid as and when I do get infected).
I had rather more than a bout of this when I was younger. Having had Covid in the autumn, I am not more fatigued than normal. Whilst everyone is unique, I wouldn’t worry unduly about this.
Good to know!
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Tested positive today, which is frustrating. It was bound to catch up with me eventually...
I started getting symptoms last Saturday and tested positive Sunday. After a couple of years of covid ICU work including intubations etc, I did think I’d get it before now too, but think I ended up catching it at home from a visitor.
Still feel a bit rough a week down, but resumed training now. Just need to recover from my exam induced lay off and dislocated patella and I’ll be back to it!
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Good long covid thing in the New York Times this weekend:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/02/19/science/long-covid-causes.html
I know that some people regard covid-related energy problems as involving a large deconditioning or even psychosomatic component, but this view appears to be somewhat behind the science:
"These findings demonstrate that people with long Covid are suffering systemic physical problems, rather than just being anxious or out of shape, said Dr. David M. Systrom, an exercise physiologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital who helped conduct the bike study.
“You can’t make up small fiber neuropathy by skin biopsy. That isn’t in somebody’s head,” Dr. Systrom said. “You can’t make up poor oxygen extraction to this degree. All of these are objective measures of disease.” "
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Lung imaging using a breath-hold of hyperpolarised xenon gas inside MRI has shown up changes in the lungs of people suffering long covid. I only know about this through investment in the company (Polarean) developing the technology. The method is awaiting FDA approval for widespread commercial use but is being used in numerous lung function studies in US/UK/Europe.
https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/lung-abnormalities-found-in-long-covid-patients-with-breathlessness/29798
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=&term=Xenon+MRI&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=
https://polarean.com/state-of-lung-imaging/
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How's everyone been getting on?
I've only just seen improvement, initially tested positive on something like the 8/9th of February. Only a few days ago on our holiday in Wales did I feel anything like myself again.
Went from covid to a chest and sinus infection that was extremely grim. That cleared eventually with antibiotics which then left me with blocked ears and exhaustion. The ears had been blocked for approx 4 weeks and they only cleared a few days ago too with lots of nasal rinse then later blowing up balloons with one nostril and swallowing at the same time.
Grimness :alien:
Definitely don't want my underpants
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This sounds exactly like what i have had for the last 2 weeks, but all LFTs (every 2-3 days) have all shown negative.
Tinnitus has gone into overdrive and keeping me awake.
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I do think it initially weakness you and your previous illness come back, especially if they were viral.
I had a similar episode back in 2018 with suspected glandular fever.
Tbh my ears and eustachian tubes are my weakness, harps back to growing up in South Africa and constantly swimming in over-chlorinated pool which most folk had and also jumping off high Olympic diving boards.
Do your ears feel like they need to clear? Are you deaf?
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Had COVID in October but became a bit run down. Now feeling very tired, cough, blocked nose and painful palate and blisters in mouth, makes eating / drinking tricky. Will see what the Dr says; appointment is next week.
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harps back to growing up in South Africa and constantly swimming in over-chlorinated pool which most folk had and also jumping off high Olympic diving boards.
Do your ears feel like they need to clear? Are you deaf?
Same with me, South African pools, I used to get ear infections a lot. Plus 2 years National Service in Artillery didn't help, but I loud gigs and nightclubs were probably the final straw. It's been pretty low level for a long time, but for the last two weeks while I've been feeling ill it's really picked up. Not deaf though no, just feel like ears are a bit blocked.
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How's everyone been getting on?
A tiny bit better thanks! I have slowly been improving over the last couple of weeks, yesterday was a pretty big day for me as I went out of the house twice :weakbench: That included a small walk and a drive/park visit, so really knocking out that activity. Was absolutely shattered by the evening and slept like I'd been out climbing all day. Generally feeling a bit more positive, at least in part due to finding some stories of people who've recovered from long covid and are getting back to some type of activity and training after many, many months of illness. I've been doing basically what they did, so I'm on the right track to improve even if it takes a long time.
Mostly it's just rest, rest and more rest, combined with sensible eating, a bit of intermittent fasting, breathing exercises and gentle stretching. I've also bought a Garmin smartwatch which is extremely useful in helping to get my pacing right. Have had some quite interesting heart rate readings - over 160 just walking on the flat - but can use it to get a better sense of when my body is over-stressed and I need to calm things down a bit. I can go into more detail about this either on here or privately if anyone would like to know.
Hope everyone who is ill or under the weather starts to see some spring improvement.
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I've also bought a Garmin smartwatch which is extremely useful in helping to get my pacing right. Have had some quite interesting heart rate readings - over 160 just walking on the flat.
did you feel like you were doing 160? The HR readings off wrist devices can be totally whack. Mine will just have a wobbler
from time to time and report all sorts of nonsense. Often picks up cadence on downhills and tells me I've gone beyond my max HR when I'm still "in breath". Sometimes you can take it off your wrist and watch it report HR as long as you keep moving, have to stop to reset it.
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I felt pretty out of whack. Sometimes just walking along the flat feels like I’m slogging along at 3500m, I’m breathless in the same way. Gets immediately better if I stop for a rest. So taking what you say into account, maybe not 160 but there is definitely something wrong.
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Hope you feel better soon.
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You too!
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Wrist monitors are notoriously unreliable with HR. Since i got an HRM Pro monitor, my ordinary chest one has lain in a drawer unused. It should syc with any Garmin device, if anyone wants it let me know.
Hope you guys feel better soon.
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Had COVID in October but became a bit run down. Now feeling very tired, cough, blocked nose and painful palate and blisters in mouth, makes eating / drinking tricky. Will see what the Dr says; appointment is next week.
That sounds grim and a drawn out affair, hope the DR can help.
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How's everyone been getting on?
A tiny bit better thanks! I have slowly been improving over the last couple of weeks, yesterday was a pretty big day for me as I went out of the house twice :weakbench: That included a small walk and a drive/park visit, so really knocking out that activity. Was absolutely shattered by the evening and slept like I'd been out climbing all day. Generally feeling a bit more positive, at least in part due to finding some stories of people who've recovered from long covid and are getting back to some type of activity and training after many, many months of illness. I've been doing basically what they did, so I'm on the right track to improve even if it takes a long time.
Mostly it's just rest, rest and more rest, combined with sensible eating, a bit of intermittent fasting, breathing exercises and gentle stretching. I've also bought a Garmin smartwatch which is extremely useful in helping to get my pacing right. Have had some quite interesting heart rate readings - over 160 just walking on the flat - but can use it to get a better sense of when my body is over-stressed and I need to calm things down a bit. I can go into more detail about this either on here or privately if anyone would like to know.
Hope everyone who is ill or under the weather starts to see some spring improvement.
Ah man that too sounds rough, well done staying positive.
I've found taking loads of Vitamin D has helped and so has trying to sit in the sun as much as I can.
Food wise I've been eating alot of fermented foods, some bought and some made at home. Drinking Miso soup has also felt like it's made a difference. Heard good things about Vitamin K2 so I thought I'd give it a go.
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Yeah, Miso seems to hit the spot. We seem to have done much the same as you dietary wise, my partner seems to have recovered better tho - I still get waves of tiredness and my skin is still on fire, way over sensitive.
Stick with it Sean - slowly slowly.
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I have my own homemade kefir in the fridge and miso is also great. Whilst I’m at it a side of sashimi seems to help too… :)
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Flew back from Austria Saturday, started feeling ropey Sunday afternoon, worse today, just tested +. Must have been on flight or in crowded terminal, in spite of FFP2 masks. See how this goes...
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Sheeiiite. Did you at least get some good snooooooowboarding?
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Skied every day, conditions from amazing to full Scottish.
No snow deep enough i felt the need to hire a snowboard, my decent one is in Les Gets, and wasn't bothered about packing my rock board. Plus St Anton isn't great for on piste boarding, a lot of long flat bits.
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Flew back from Austria Saturday, started feeling ropey Sunday afternoon, worse today, just tested +. Must have been on flight or in crowded terminal, in spite of FFP2 masks. See how this goes...
We flew back from Gran Canaria a little over a week ago with similar and I was buzzed on either the Mon or Tues about a close contact but nothing showed on an LFT. However, Nat has just tested positive after what I'd class as our first social event since all of this kicked off. One of our mentors was retiring and we ended up in Leeds on Fri (with alcohol etc.). As a pair we've been incredibly risk averse.
She's not been particularly well in general over the past month so it was quite hard initially to see if the symptoms (extreme tiredness plus others) were due to this or what went before. TBH initially we both feared it might just have been what hangovers feel like after your 35th birthday!
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Pretty sure it was the crowded terminal; the coach and plane were pretty well ventilated. It's a tiny terminal at Innsbruck and far too many people being dropped off too far in advance of flights, so impossible to socially distance. I was sat shoulder to shoulder with other people all with masks off as we were eating and drinking while waiting for the flight. Loads of flights cancelled or delayed so it was packed out.
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Anyone have tinnitus issues with COVID? Mine was moderate, but has escalated to pretty bad, really hoping it drops off when oi get better.
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Yep - see my post on page 1 or 2.
Hope you feel better soon Chris.
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Has it got better since? Mine was manageable (a result of too much artillery fire and nightclubs with crap sound systems) but feels pretty bad right now. In spite of it I'm sleeping a solid 8 hours plus which never usually happens, 6 at a stretch is usually the best I get.
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It was my last obvious symptom to go and so I probably had it for 7/8 weeks, pretty much the whole time I was at my worst.
Sleep didn't make a lot of difference but a funky nasal rinse did.
https://www.boots.com/sterimar-hypertonic-congestion-relief-100ml-10081013
So I'm still not 100 percent better since I got ill at the start of February, seem to be left with wrist and ankle pain but with a bit of experimentation I seem to be winning, mostly.
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Good stuff, seems like you have timed it well, first sessions at the Findon Fin for the year have started...
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It’s back to normal now Chris. Both times it lasted 3-6 months before calming down to pre-Covid levels. I ended up going to a specialist the first time who gave my ears a good clean which helped.
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Good to know.
Of interest, did you have any tinnitus before? I've got some; a result of, I expect, artillery fire and nightclubs with crap sound systems.
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I'm 10 days in (mid 40s, double vaxxed, boosted and not had it before) and feeling much better though still testing positive. Had one bad night's sleep after an afternoon of generally feeling weird, tested + the following morning and then had three days in bed feeling pretty rough but have improved steadily since then. Managed half an hour at the wall last night with no ill effects but it's not ideal preparation for a week in Font next week! Yellow circuits here we come!
I do suffer from occasional (and seemingly undiagnosable) boughts of fatigue every couple of years that sound very similar to Sean, Ben and other's symptoms where I am literally incapable of doing much other than sleep. These episodes usually last 2-4 weeks and I have to be very careful in returning to normal activity. The symptoms of tiredness and lethargy are usually accompanied with and preceded by swollen glands similar to Glandular fever though blood tests say it categorically not this.
My concern is that Covid will have some kind of affect on these episodes... Will keep yous posted.
Good luck to everyone struggling with this - it all still feels remarkably surreal!
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Managed half an hour at the wall last night with no ill effects but it's not ideal preparation for a week in Font next week!
At the wall?
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Tragically I'm in the club after trying incredibly hard to avoid it. I've been quite anxious about getting it as had 4 years of ME/CFS quite recently.
I'm about 5 days in and almost feeling better. What a strange illness. It's been like a greatest hits of all the shittest symptoms of cold or flu one after the other but rarely at the same time, don't know if other people have found this? Crushing headache, all over body ache like flu, couldn't sleep, shivers and fever, sore throat with rasping cough, runny nose and sneezing, joint pain. I've had a loss of taste too but am almost feeling human now. Will see how the next few weeks go fatigue wise, I have quite a physical job and as the the main earner I need to get back to work as, being self employed, have taken quite a hit this last week. Thanks Boris and Rishi.
Anyway, hope everyone out there is alright.
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Sorry to read about so many people getting sick and I hope everyone makes a speedy recovery. For those that don’t, I have gathered lots of info on how to deal with/recovery from the long lasting illness. But… I am too tired to post it! :'(
Will try to get it together sometime soon…
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Good to know.
Of interest, did you have any tinnitus before? I've got some; a result of, I expect, artillery fire and nightclubs with crap sound systems.
Yep I had it before, no artillery for me but I’m sure standing next to drummers whilst playing bass for years without plugs and then loud gigs/DJing/headphones and surfers ear will have caused it.
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Get well soon Chris, Fatneck, Shurt and Sean..
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Good to know.
Of interest, did you have any tinnitus before? I've got some; a result of, I expect, artillery fire and nightclubs with crap sound systems.
Yep I had it before, no artillery for me but I’m sure standing next to drummers whilst playing bass for years without plugs and then loud gigs/DJing/headphones and surfers ear will have caused it.
I guessed that might be the case!
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I tested positive today.
My wife tested +ve a couple of days ago, so I've been expecting it. I have been deliberately taking it easy. I got short of breath walking uphill yesterday and have had a couple of weak moments today.
My lungs took a bit of a hammering in 2002 and 2003 with pneumonia followed by chicken pox and have not been the same since.
Let's see what happens.
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My pulse rate has been back to normal as of end of last week, still got continuous snotty nose and tinnitus is still pretty bad. Hope you ride it out OK Lagers, and everyone else. If you are concerned about lungs get a finger clip oxymeter, easy way of checking levels.
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Fingers crossed it's mild for you lagers
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Also wishing you well Rob.
For anyone who’s recovering from covid - you really don’t want to be me! So at the risk of being repetitive, take as much rest as you need and maybe a little more on top. This is not something to try pushing through.
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If you are concerned about lungs get a finger clip oxymeter, easy way of checking levels.
We bought one last year
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Thought you might, but worth mentioning in case.
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Anyone who's had it twice got any insights on how they found recovery from round 2 vs round 1? So far the infection seems to have been broadly similar but with all symptoms being a bit more subdued than the first time... I'm assuming that means recovery will be similar or a little faster (which for me means probably allowing 4 weeks or so to build back up to full activity) but wondering if anyone has any anecdotes to relay?
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Anyone who's had it twice got any insights on how they found recovery from round 2 vs round 1? So far the infection seems to have been broadly similar but with all symptoms being a bit more subdued than the first time... I'm assuming that means recovery will be similar or a little faster (which for me means probably allowing 4 weeks or so to build back up to full activity) but wondering if anyone has any anecdotes to relay?
My second time I onsighted at my hardest sport grade two days after I'd recovered, and had much less ongoing fatigue and malaise.... But it really depends I guess...
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If anyone is unfortunate enough to have long covid and wants to know whether and how it is possible to return to training then this talk by Oonagh Cousins is very good. She is on the GB rowing team and has been very sick with long covid but has made a good recovery, to the point of being back racing now. She has posted on facebook in a private group ("long covid for endurance athletes", worth checking out if you're sick and can brave the Zuckerberg Monstrosity) but this is the first thing I've seen publicly and in the same depth. She is apparently even better now than she was when filming this talk.
https://youtu.be/DLQ2rjAAj5E
Another thing worth checking out is this link on autonomic problems in long covid, this isn't everyone but if you have these symptoms then Dr Putrino has also got a pre-print paper with a rehab protocol (see supplementary documents in the second link).
https://twitter.com/PutrinoLab/status/1525172494709182464?s=20&t=KVFklFHKZUCATGU5nq5KmQ
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-440909/v1
Post exertional malaise is an absolutely fucking horrible experience, hopefully this advice is useful. As always a disclaimer - I'm not a medical professional, take internet advice from randoms at your own risk etc.
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tinnitus is still pretty bad.
Not improved :( keeping me awake most nights.
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Really sorry to read this Chris - sounds very grim.
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I tested positive on a lateral flow test a few days after my OH tested positive and was in bed for four days and a bit with a fever between 37 and 38.5 (and a brief peak at 39) on my thermometer (I am usually at 36 or lower). A few days later I went out walking to the pharmacy, and another pharmacy since the first one had siesta and had to go to bed again from exhaustion afterwards.
A few days later I did a very light fingerboard session which worked ok, so two days later I did some harder fingerboarding and a bit of campusing and got big bruises on all my fingertips. This might be because of some molecular changes in the capillaries due to the virus (see https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30937-5/ ). Certainly people are reporting issues in their feet and hands.
I tested positive (PCR) the next day, which was twelve days after onset of symptoms and ten days after having first tested positive on a home testing kit.
I have since slowly started to train more, prioritising short sessions of fingerboard or campusing for increased snappiness (RFD).
Today I did my first session of roped climbing some three weeks after onset. This whole thing pretty much sucks. Better to avoid infection imho.
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Really sorry to read this Chris - sounds very grim.
Forgot to say thanks to this, in the grand scheme of things, compared to what you are going through it's pretty minor.
I do think it's now dropping off slightly now, although that could just be me filtering it out.
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Sorry to hear that jwi. It definitely sucks, I'm in a similar position after getting covid over three weeks ago on a climbing trip to Inishmore. Out of a group of 10, 8 of us got ill. Spent a day and a half in a tent feeling really ill, then dragged myself through a few days of new-route bolting and climbing while feeling completely knackered, probably unwisely. Was still testing positive at the start of this week, 2.5 weeks later. Have a cough and feel knackered and have experienced the 'brain fog' thing, sleeping lots every night. Can certainly understand how shit it would be to have this sort of fatigue long term. Hope it improves for Sean and anyone else suffering.
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Shit Pete, that sucks, sorry to hear you are ill. Hope those symptoms lift soon.
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Hold tight everyone who’s suffering :hug:
My biggest fear was that I’d get it and inadvertently give it to my housebound parents. My Mum is almost completely incapacitated with MND and my Dad has heart failure, has had bad asthma his whole life and his jabs weren’t exactly to the recommended schedule- he had more than 6 months between the first two and while he’s eligible for the fourth he’s only just had his third.
While I was in the States earlier this month my Dad caught it off one of my Mum’s carers… somehow my Mum didn’t get it at all and my Dad only had minor symptoms and tested negative within a week. YYFY!
I on the other hand got infected at some point in the journey home (another YYFY that I didn’t get it on the journey out there I now realise) and have been sick as a dog with, like jwi, a bad fever for the first four days, which coincided with those two mega hot ones :( Had serious delirium the first 48 hours- waking up repeatedly on the floor of the spare room having gone almost straight from staying in various places in America to self-isolation was an absolute headfuck! :lol:
On the mend now and tested negative this afternoon so I’ll hopefully start feeling like I’m back in Britain again soon. I did almost nothing but lie down and feel sorry for myself (luckily I can work from bed) since I first got symptoms. Can’t believe people are training and climbing within days of getting it! :sick:
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How many jabs have you had Cheque.
I’m triple jabbed and caught it back in mid May. My wife had tested positive on a Sunday however as I had no symptoms I carried on as normal till the Thursday when following a 60+ mile bike ride I started to feel pretty ropey. Test showed positive in about 30 seconds, felt like I’d a very heavy cold Friday and Saturday. By Sunday I was feeling ok so did light session on my home board, felt fine the next day went on the board and weight trained afterwards. Then just did day on day off with a bit of walking in between
I didn’t cycle for 10 days as I’d heard the horror stories of people damaging their lungs from starting training too early. First ready took it steady and no issues, then carried on as normal.
Given the more jabs you’ve had the less severe it’s supposed to be appears to be case for me and also the missus who was fine after 3 days.
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I was triple jabbed and it knocked the utter crap out of me (I too began feeling ropey mid ride; I had to stop and wipe my face on the grass :sick:). I've also recently had a bout of Shingles (I believe there's a 15% increase in the 50+ band of this within 6 months of Covid; I'm not 50+). Obviously correlation isn't causation and I'm pretty wound up at work which could also be the cause (or be contributing).
I'm a little baffled by the fact that we're not talking more about mitigation/ventilation with the impact it's having on people's ability to work. The cost/benefit surely skews towards the benefit?
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I also been vaccinated three times. Best case scenario vaccination with a mixture of moderna and pfizer as well. I still was pretty ill for two weeks from BA.5.
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2 jabs for me, second one 11 months ago. Definitely felt like the 'rona hit me hard.
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Likewise I was Pfizer, Pfizer, Moderna.
2 jabs for me, second one 11 months ago. Definitely felt like the 'rona hit me hard.
Without being judgey, can I ask why you're only at two? Isn't not having a booster limiting for EU travel?
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How many jabs have you had Cheque
I had all three as soon as I was eligible :ang: Two AZs & a Moderna. 5th of May, 9th of July & 31st of December last year.
I had aches and a fever for ~24 hours after each one, particularly the last. The reactions of my nearest and dearest to the vaccine have all corresponded to how badly we’ve had it, not sure if that’s a coincidence or not.
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Likewise I was Pfizer, Pfizer, Moderna.
2 jabs for me, second one 11 months ago. Definitely felt like the 'rona hit me hard.
Without being judgey, can I ask why you're only at two? Isn't not having a booster limiting for EU travel?
I didn't bother with the third because I didn't feel concerned by the risk to me from getting ill with covid. And the travel restrictions didn't affect my plans - I skied in Spain, climbed in Switzerland, and climbed in Sardinia all earlier this year without being restricted. After having it I still feel the same - it's shit, but not a big deal for me in terms of risk. If travel seems too restricted next time I go away I might get another jab.
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If it’s not the 3 jabs it must be the red wine. :alky:
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Hold tight everyone who’s suffering :hug:
My biggest fear was that I’d get it and inadvertently give it to my housebound parents. My Mum is almost completely incapacitated with MND and my Dad has heart failure, has had bad asthma his whole life and his jabs weren’t exactly to the recommended schedule- he had more than 6 months between the first two and while he’s eligible for the fourth he’s only just had his third.
While I was in the States earlier this month my Dad caught it off one of my Mum’s carers… somehow my Mum didn’t get it at all and my Dad only had minor symptoms and tested negative within a week. YYFY!
I on the other hand got infected at some point in the journey home (another YYFY that I didn’t get it on the journey out there I now realise) and have been sick as a dog with, like jwi, a bad fever for the first four days, which coincided with those two mega hot ones :( Had serious delirium the first 48 hours- waking up repeatedly on the floor of the spare room having gone almost straight from staying in various places in America to self-isolation was an absolute headfuck! :lol:
On the mend now and tested negative this afternoon so I’ll hopefully start feeling like I’m back in Britain again soon. I did almost nothing but lie down and feel sorry for myself (luckily I can work from bed) since I first got symptoms. Can’t believe people are training and climbing within days of getting it! :sick:
Really glad your folks made it through okay (I had an anxiety meltdown when my parents got it), and I hope you're fully recovered and on for doing some trad with me soon! Fever during the heatwave sounds like hell on earth.
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If travel seems too restricted next time I go away I might get another jab.
Reading the current rules for entry into Spain I think you're probably in a better position than I am currently. If you get your booster you'll be covered for 270 days after that (and I think 14 days have to elapsed) whereas I'm now just about out of that so I'll need a pre-departure PCR (<72H) or LFT (<24H). That's if I'm reading it correctly.
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Good luck recovering and take it steady Cheque (and others too!)
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Anyone had it twice? (Apologies if it's already been discussed)
Interested in how hard it's hit folk the second time. Had it in January, just tested positive again. Triple jabbed (booster in December), mid forties, no underlying conditions.
First time round was about 18 hrs of increasing symptoms, leading up to 24 hrs of "worse than flu", but never worried, then improving over the next 72 hrs. Took another four days to test negative though (was back in the days of isolation).
Early days, but this time I'm 18 hrs from onset of symptoms and would still describe it as a sore throat and runny nose, though I was pretty exhausted yesterday eve.
Any others got experience?
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Just seen you post Webbo, how did it compare to when you first caught it in May?
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Me and my wife both found round 2 a bit less aggressive than round one, but still pretty wiped out for a few days. Took ~3 weeks to get back to full training/climbing vs ~4 weeks for the first round, but that may partly be having managed it better the second time (i.e. not trying to go back to endurance training so fast)
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Just seen you post Webbo, how did it compare to when you first caught it in May?
I have only had it once. My post was just recounting my experience.
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So now I'm done with round 2. Probably caught it Thursday, tested positive sat eve, tested negative Thursday morning.
As Barrows said, def milder this time, for me about a week start to finish compared to about 2 first time, and much milder symptoms - worst day was like a bad cold, last time was worse than any flu I've had.
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I had it twice pre-vaccine. The second time was worse symptom wise.
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Well now, this is interesting. A long overdue cultural shift away from blaming illnesses with difficult to identify illnesses causes on ‘hysteria’ and other cod psychosomatic illnesses?
Monbiot’s writing about Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (clue is in the name), but the issue applies to long Covid too.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/12/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me-treatments-social-services
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In that Monbiot article, he cites a ME deep phenotyping study where they say that Long Covid may also be ME https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-024-45107-3
I was a bit uncomfortable with how Monbiot almost seems to be implying that doctors should never implicate psychosomatic mechanisms to illness. Monbiot doesn't actually say that as such, he just says that it is bad when doctors persist with debunked models of a disease. However the whole tone of his piece came across to me as implying that it is worse for doctors to make an error when the error is in that direction.
It seems to me that the duty of doctors is to just try and do what is best for patients by endeavouring to comprehend and treat disease as it is -however that may be.
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It seems to me that the duty of doctors is to just try and do what is best for patients by endeavouring to comprehend and treat disease as it is -however that may be.
Absolutely. It's a broadside from the writer, for sure. It is based on years of some practitioners doing the very opposite of what you suggest. Many physicians are outstanding and the actions of minority are just that. However, the minority view has had major consequences and that is tragedy for people caught up in it. Psychologising physical ailments without sound evidence should not happen.
I do agree Stone, that medics need the freedom to diagnose pyschosomatic illness where it is supported by strong evidence. Unfortunately, I suspect there is a far greater tendency to ascribe psychological explanations to physical illness than to diagnose physical causes to psychological conditions.
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There’s tons of evidence for long covid being a physical nor psychosomatic illness, and equally a very large number of long covid patients who find their healthcare providers ignore that evidence in favour of a psychological explanation. Unfortunately I’m extremely sceptical of the idea that this sort of behaviour is confined to a minority of physicians.
There’s a history of medics preferring a psychosomatic explanation over a physical one, only to be disproved when better technology comes along. One problem with psychologising disease is that it has led (in the case of ME) to “treatments” that have actively harmed patients. This kind of outdated and harmful treatment is still sometimes offered to long covid patients… bad ideas are hard to shift.
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Quite. If the message has come to NICE, maybe there is evidence of a shifting outlook Sean?
I was a bit uncomfortable with how Monbiot almost seems to be implying that doctors should never implicate psychosomatic mechanisms to illness.
I didn’t get that from reading his article Stone.
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It’s a very mixed bag. Certainly the physios I’ve seen were very into pacing and warned about the risks of the graded exercise approach, so the message has got through there. Similar with the NHS psychologist.
Doctors? Well the Royal College of Physicians did not accept the new NICE guidelines when they came out but I’m not sure where they stand now. It’s not encouraging that the evidence gets labelled “poor or very poor” quality and… they still want to use those treatments. I’m at a loss to understand those attitudes. I’ve experienced a bit of reluctance from doctors to see it as a physical disease and, after hearing from hundreds of other patients including some who were previously doctors, I consider myself fortunate in that respect. Still, even with a fair wind the treatments available are risible and extremely patchily applied, at the very least there’s been a huge failure of knowledge sharing. I’ve found dealing with doctors has mostly veered between frustrating and traumatic - my GP shouted at me for politely suggesting that attending the long covid clinic might be a good idea. Can’t imagine cancer patients get shouted at much.
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My experience with Doctors when diagnosed with CFS was shit. Had multiple blood tests, all negative over long period. Diagnosis and then a shrug and goodbye. There is little support or any idea of a plan for recovery via doctors on the NHS. Not sure if the same for long covid but I suspect as much.
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Hi Sean, sorry to read about your experience at the GP. That is very poor.
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Thanks. It actually got worse with the long covid clinic - I only got referred on for treatment because I took in my own data for a blood pressure test that reveals dysautonomia, which I strongly suspected I had and is very common in long covid patients. That got me a cardiologist appointment and an eventual diagnosis, but no thanks to the so called specialist clinic. That a major London hospital couldn’t design a proper long covid service was a real shock.
Putting my economist hat on for a moment, the impact of chronic illness on the labour market is huge right now and I’m sure long covid is a major component of this. This is bad for everyone, it’s insanity that the government haven’t properly grasped this issue.
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Sean, it's great to hear that, thanks to your efforts, your long covid treatment is now less woeful.
I'm regularly struck by just how hard medicine evidently is. Doctors screw up a lot. My impression is that is despite their extraordinary levels of diligence and dedication. They are just fallible humans.
Regarding mrjonathanr's point about a systematic tendency to mis-attribute physical illness to psychological influences -I'm much less sure. I was very struck by a TV program by Chris Van Tullekan ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07w532p ). He addressed the issue of patients with chronic pain (due to clear physical issues). There was no effective drug treatment for them because painkillers stopped working after a few weeks. Despite that they were being prescribed totally ineffective, harmful and expensive painkiller drugs for years. However a Kung Fu expert was able to help a lot with mind control stuff.
Perhaps another example is psychiatric illness where perhaps sometimes psychological/behavioural approaches get overlooked.
I also think it is worth remembering that for many disease presentations, "functional" illness is a genuine regular cause. Doctors will have come across patients with stroke type symptoms or seizures or whatever that are "functional". Those patients are just as sick and just as deserving of solidarity etc and just as deserving of treatment that is tailored to their causative (psychological) mechanism. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000112j
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It’s not great, it’s woeful. No one denies that medicine is difficult, my point is that for some chronic illnesses doctors are barely doing medicine at all. Ignoring basic tests, showing an irrational preference for disproven treatments, gaslighting patients, the works. Long covid patients literally beg for a doctor that says “this is difficult and I’m not sure how to treat you” because that kind of admission of fallibility is as rare as rocking horse shit when talking to patients. The closest I’ve had is “well what do you expect me to do?” and that’s not very close at all!
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n=1 etc., but I spent most of 2023 with something that may or may not have been long Covid. If not long Covid, then maybe some sort of post-viral response. I eventually went to the GP (my wife's a GP, so we chatted about it, but needed to see my GP to get the various tests set up). It was never actually diagnosed as long Covid (or anything else) - blood test, chest x-ray and ECG showed nothing (or at least nothing that would have suggested a definitive diagnosis).
Despite the article's suggestion that GET/CBT aren't (or might not be) the answer, that's basically what I've done - not from any GP treatment plan, just me trying to work things out for myself. I don't deal with doing little/no exercise very well and don't deal with "not performing" or not having a training goal either. I found that 6 months of running/climbing and feeling terrible about my performance in addition to feeling shattered after exercise meant that I wasn't going out at all. I think the CBT gave me the headspace to accept the poor performance and just enjoy the climbing/running for its own sake, despite feeling terrible. In turn, this meant I was able to build the exercise volume up really carefully over the next 3/4 months. It's been a slow process and I've had to resist the urge to throw the towel in or overdo it on numerous occasions. However, I'm back to running 40-50 miles a week, having struggled with running 10 miles a week in October. Also doing 3 climbing sessions a week alongside this.
I'm well aware that my long Covid (or whatever) wasn't the most severe and it sounds like Sean has been in a far worse place for far longer. Also aware that the above is entirely anecdotal and the same improvement may have happened if I'd sat on my arse and moped around for 3 months. Probably the most useful tool in my recovery has been my smart watch - resting HR, HRV and body battery alongside HR during exercise have been key to everything I've done (despite my wife telling me I should try ignoring it). In some ways, the GP appointment told me nothing, but I did ask if I was going to cause myself any damage if I carried on increasing exercise load and he seemed comfortable with that (once he'd seen ECG results - which I think ruled out myocarditis?). I get the impression that there is very little guidance to GPs on how to deal with long Covid, although this may be dependent on which CCG/health authority you're in.
It’s not great, it’s woeful. No one denies that medicine is difficult, my point is that for some chronic illnesses doctors are barely doing medicine at all. Ignoring basic tests, showing an irrational preference for disproven treatments, gaslighting patients, the works. Long covid patients literally beg for a doctor that says “this is difficult and I’m not sure how to treat you” because that kind of admission of fallibility is as rare as rocking horse shit when talking to patients. The closest I’ve had is “well what do you expect me to do?” and that’s not very close at all!
Really sorry to hear this Sean. All I can say is that “this is difficult and I’m not sure how to treat you” is basically what my GP said to me.
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I wonder whether some doctors are taught not to admit to patients when they don't know how to treat? https://www.dawn.com/news/1365536
I suppose sometimes a confident doctor is just what a patient needs to hear. I know I found it an enormous relief when I was told I was suffering from mania/psychosis and that was something they were used to dealing with and everything would be sorted out for me. Simply being told that seemed to me at the time to be the most important aspect of the treatment.
I guess the worst of all possible worlds is where a doctor clearly isn't at all confident but also feels duty bound to pretend otherwise and so ends up appearing both clueless and dishonest :(
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My brother had that when he developed Bell's Palsy. The (very young) doctor he saw was blatantly typing the symptoms into the NHS website.
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Stabbsy, that sounds tough. Glad you’re feeling much better.
Stone, I’m sorry if I have not been clear. I don’t belief there is a ‘systematic tendency’ (not quite sure what that means tbh?) …could you point me to where you thought I was saying that?
Regarding mrjonathanr's point about a systematic tendency to mis-attribute physical illness to psychological influences -I'm much less sure.
I do believe that some conditions have met with resistance from a proportion of physicians unwilling to accept a physical rather than psychological aetiology. I also believe that there has been a lack of rigour in arriving at these positions. And that the consequences for large numbers of people have been devastating. This is what, in his own way, Monbiot is saying in the article. The key takeaway - and why I linked to it - is that this is finally being recognised.
Don’t forget for patients with serious long term illness in this position, many will have lost jobs, financial stability, and the sense of purpose and achievement that comes with work and careers. They will also be fearful for the future, struggling to cope with daily challenges, with hobbies and with social opportunities.
The only normal response to that is grief, compounded with a huge sense of hurt and bewilderment at not being believed. It’s a betrayal. (The word is chosen with care.)
That is what the article is about- not some reluctance to admit to the merit of psychological approaches to the healing process. That was obvious, surely?
By definition, psychology plays its role in every form of ill health, in myriad ways. You can see that at play by reading any injury related thread on this site. That distress is real, as is the need to grapple with it mentally, I think most of us have experienced the feeling of horror at some new injury or other. Now extrapolate that to people who have lost careers, livelihoods, marriages and everything else that can come with a disability. The least they are owed is a fair hearing from those tasked with helping them and the integrity to admit it when they don’t have the answers.
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Different cases of disease have varying levels of psychological influence over their aetiology. Even wound or broken bone repair (or lack of it) entails inflammation etc that is influenced by stress levels etc.
For doctors to best serve their patients they need to intervene in anyway that improves the outcome, be that by positively influencing psychology and/or with drugs or surgery or whatever.
I am wary when I hear stuff that seems to imply that there is a neat binary distinction between disease presentations that are 100% physical in aetiology versus diseases that are always 100% psychological. Biology is always very complex and messy.
If there are great treatments for long covid that are not being offered to patients due to some ideology, then obviously that is scandelous. Is that the case though? Or is everyone just clueless and so resorting to recommending "positive thinking" in the absence of their being anything else? Obviously if such a recommendation is made in a cack-handed way, then it is worse than useless. But that isn't to say that for some cases it couldn't potentially be the right thing to do.
For myself, for an entirely different (mental) illness I'm a fan of such an approach (eg see this video https://www.wellnessrecoveryactionplan.com/wrap-videos/ ).
In the past, I've also had lymphoma. I was extremely glad that there was effective chemo for that (I also had radio therapy). I sort of dabbled (probably pointlessly) with "positive thinking" during that too.
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If there is some treatment for long covid, I'm all ears. All I've seen is think happy thoughts and accept your new life
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Stone, I’m sorry if I have not been clear. I don’t belief there is a ‘systematic tendency’ (not quite sure what that means tbh?) …could you point me to where you thought I was saying that?
Regarding mrjonathanr's point about a systematic tendency to mis-attribute physical illness to psychological influences -I'm much less sure.
I was thinking of this
I do agree Stone, that medics need the freedom to diagnose pyschosomatic illness where it is supported by strong evidence. Unfortunately, I suspect there is a far greater tendency to ascribe psychological explanations to physical illness than to diagnose physical causes to psychological conditions.
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I think it is worth reflecting on how a desire for proper meaty medical intervention rather than wishy-washy psychological approaches led to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#History
I really hope that long covid and ME get effective treatment strategies. I think it is important to cast aside prejudices about whether potential psychological aspects of aetiology are less validating of patient experience or whatever. Perhaps there is very little psychological influence over potential disease outcome for those diseases or perhaps there is a lot. My understanding is that at this stage, medicine is unsure and prejudice in either direction is unhelpful.
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I was thinking of this
I do agree Stone, that medics need the freedom to diagnose pyschosomatic illness where it is supported by strong evidence. Unfortunately, I suspect there is a far greater tendency to ascribe psychological explanations to physical illness than to diagnose physical causes to psychological conditions.
A pretty self-evident statement, I should have thought. Nothing about a ‘systematic tendency’ though?
Honestly, I think your intentions are benign Stone but I don’t think you’re seeing this clearly. It is NOT about the validity of psychological interventions in medicine, it’s about stubborn and damaging misattribution in the face of evidence to the contrary, with potentially devastating consequences.
Consider that people close to those who are unwell will take their cue from judgments of medical professionals. If that judgment is ‘it’s all in the mind’ when people are physically ill, no amount of CBT/placebo/positive self-talk will fix it. People can adjust to disabling conditions with the support of loved ones but locating responsibility for the illness in the patient who ‘resists’ getting better can destroy that support and the self-belief needed to navigate a crisis at the very time it is most needed. That’s a serious moral injury.
Psychological interventions have merit in many situations and I’m glad that you feel you have benefitted, many people have. I wouldn’t discount therapy as an adjunct, but physical illnesses require physical solutions. You’re not going to cure polio/hiv/cancer with positive thoughts, are you? People die of this nonsense.
I’ll leave it there.
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My experience with Doctors when diagnosed with CFS was shit. Had multiple blood tests, all negative over long period. Diagnosis and then a shrug and goodbye. There is little support or any idea of a plan for recovery via doctors on the NHS. Not sure if the same for long covid but I suspect as much.
My experience entirely with long covid. I have a private MECFS diagnosis now.
I gave up on the GP a while back.
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Different cases of disease have varying levels of psychological influence over their aetiology. Even wound or broken bone repair (or lack of it) entails inflammation etc that is influenced by stress levels etc.
For doctors to best serve their patients they need to intervene in anyway that improves the outcome, be that by positively influencing psychology and/or with drugs or surgery or whatever.
I am wary when I hear stuff that seems to imply that there is a neat binary distinction between disease presentations that are 100% physical in aetiology versus diseases that are always 100% psychological. Biology is always very complex and messy.
This.
My body is certainly broken. Low cortisol being the latest thing proven by tests but as I've been slowly healing, it's becoming obvious that my mental wellbeing is playing a huge part in how my illness manifests itself daily.
I see people with LC or MECFS raging when they think someone is suggesting that it's in their head. Then on the other hand, there are those that think it's only in the head.
Truth is we are complex and unified. Everything affects everything.
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To offer something tangible for those suffering long covid (Sean, Dunny, Kelvin, Shurt, others?).
Like many things this comes from my investing sideline hobby. I became interested in 2021/22. As an investment it's a disaster (like most of my history of biotech.. I should stick to rocks and metals). But as a tool to aid diagnosis of long covid it may be of interest for you to chase up and try to get yourselves on the UK study currently underway. That's if you're suffering breathlessness.. but maybe you aren't breathless, but your lungs still aren't functioning to their best and you aren't aware? I'm not in any way medically qualified, nor is it investment advice! :'(
https://oxfordbrc.nihr.ac.uk/ouh-agrees-long-covid-research-collaboration-with-polarean/
Background - the use was recently approved by the FDA in the US and the machines are currently being rolled out in hospitals across the US. There were a couple already in hospitals being used for studies. AFAIK there's only one or two hospitals in the UK with the machine, again being used for the study. The issue with lung imaging is current mri or CT can't provide the granular detail to accurately visualise lung ventilation and gas exchange. The xenon adaption adds that detail.
Overview from the study website:
Oxford University Hospitals (OUH) and the medical imaging technology company, Polarean Imaging plc, have entered into a research collaboration to study the long-term effects of COVID-19 in patients who are still experiencing breathlessness months after infection.
Hyperpolarised xenon MRI scans can detect underlying damage to the lungs that is not detectable on CT scans
Polarean produce an investigational drug‑device combination product using hyperpolarised xenon gas to enhance magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) in pulmonary medicine.
Xenon MRI imaging technology uses a novel approach that can detect functional changes of the lung that impact its ability to properly handle the exchange of gases during inhalation and exhalation. The upcoming research builds upon the pioneering work conducted at OUH showing that hyperpolarised xenon MRI can detect underlying damage that is not detectable by traditional lung imaging, such as CT scans.
The research builds upon the pioneering work conducted at OUH showing that hyperpolarised xenon MRI can detect areas of possible lung damage in patients with long COVID.
Under the terms of the collaboration, Polarean will provide its investigational xenon polariser system to OUH for their research. In turn, OUH will work with Polarean to optimise the imaging workflow and analyse the datasets coming from the newly enrolling EXPLAIN study. Through novel analyses of gas-exchange images, Polarean and OUH hope to better characterise long COVID and improve patient care.
The EXPLAIN study, which also involves teams from Sheffield, Cardiff and Manchester, is supported by the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre.
Professor Fergus Gleeson
Prof Fergus Gleeson (left), Professor of Radiology at the University of Oxford and Consultant Radiologist at OUH, said: “We are pleased to be working with Polarean, now having access to their most advanced hyperpolarised xenon equipment. With this new system, we will be able to image more patients more efficiently to see if we can uncover the underlying causes driving long COVID as part of our EXPLAIN study.”
Richard Hullihen, CEO of Polarean, said: “Oxford University is a leading pioneer in the use of Xe MRI to unravel the underlying pathophysiology that drives persistent breathlessness in patients with long COVID. We are delighted to collaborate with them on new image analyses as part of the upcoming EXPLAIN trial that might shed additional light on the mysterious illness that has been affecting a growing number of patients over the past few years and affecting their quality of life.”
Long COVID is an umbrella term used to describe ongoing symptoms following COVID-19 infection after four weeks. Symptoms are wide-ranging but breathlessness is one of the most common and can persist for months after the initial infection. Investigations including Computed Tomography (CT) and physiological measurements (lung function tests) can often be unremarkable. The mechanisms driving breathlessness remain unclear, and this may be hindering the development of effective treatments. Therefore, new diagnostic modalities are crucial to advance the care of these patients.
The EXPLAIN study, which involves teams in Oxford, Sheffield, Cardiff and Manchester, is using hyperpolarised xenon MRI scans to investigate possible lung damage in long COVID patients who have not been hospitalised with COVID-19 but who continue to experience breathlessness.
It is envisaged that 400 participants will be recruited. These include:
Patients diagnosed with long COVID, who have all been seen in dedicated long COVID clinics and who have normal CT scans
Participants who have been in hospital with COVID-19 and discharged more than three months previously, who have normal or nearly normal CT scans and who are not experiencing long COVID
An age- and gender-matched control group who do not have long COVID symptoms and who have not been hospitalised with COVID-19
The findings of an initial pilot study involving 36 people has identified abnormalities in the lungs of long COVID patients who had been experiencing breathlessness.
A polarisation device transforms the inert noble gas, 129xenon, into a hyperpolarised state using circularly polarised laser light. The hyperpolarised gas is inhaled by a patient to fill the space normally occupied by air in a single 10-second breath hold. The hyperpolarised gas then enhances the MRI signal, making regional lung function, including gas exchange, from the lungs to the blood visible in an MRI scan. The use of xenon MRI is non-invasive, and does not impart any radiation to the patient.
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To offer something tangible for those suffering long covid (Sean, Dunny, Kelvin, Shurt, others?).
Like many things this comes from my investing sideline hobby. I became interested in 2021/22. As an investment it's a disaster (like most of my history of biotech.. I should stick to rocks and metals). But as a tool to aid diagnosis of long covid it may be of interest for you to chase up and try to get yourselves on the UK study currently underway. That's if you're suffering breathlessness.. but maybe you aren't breathless, but your lungs still aren't functioning to their best and you aren't aware? I'm not in any way medically qualified, nor is it investment advice! :'(
https://oxfordbrc.nihr.ac.uk/ouh-agrees-long-covid-research-collaboration-with-polarean/
Background - the use was recently approved by the FDA in the US and the machines are currently being rolled out in hospitals across the US. There were a couple already in hospitals being used for studies. AFAIK there's only one or two hospitals in the UK with the machine, again being used for the study. The issue with lung imaging is current mri or CT can't provide the granular detail to accurately visualise lung ventilation and gas exchange. The xenon adaption adds that detail.
Overview from the study website:
Oxford University Hospitals (OUH) and the medical imaging technology company, Polarean Imaging plc, have entered into a research collaboration to study the long-term effects of COVID-19 in patients who are still experiencing breathlessness months after infection.
Hyperpolarised xenon MRI scans can detect underlying damage to the lungs that is not detectable on CT scans
Polarean produce an investigational drug‑device combination product using hyperpolarised xenon gas to enhance magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) in pulmonary medicine.
Xenon MRI imaging technology uses a novel approach that can detect functional changes of the lung that impact its ability to properly handle the exchange of gases during inhalation and exhalation. The upcoming research builds upon the pioneering work conducted at OUH showing that hyperpolarised xenon MRI can detect underlying damage that is not detectable by traditional lung imaging, such as CT scans.
The research builds upon the pioneering work conducted at OUH showing that hyperpolarised xenon MRI can detect areas of possible lung damage in patients with long COVID.
Under the terms of the collaboration, Polarean will provide its investigational xenon polariser system to OUH for their research. In turn, OUH will work with Polarean to optimise the imaging workflow and analyse the datasets coming from the newly enrolling EXPLAIN study. Through novel analyses of gas-exchange images, Polarean and OUH hope to better characterise long COVID and improve patient care.
The EXPLAIN study, which also involves teams from Sheffield, Cardiff and Manchester, is supported by the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre.
Professor Fergus Gleeson
Prof Fergus Gleeson (left), Professor of Radiology at the University of Oxford and Consultant Radiologist at OUH, said: “We are pleased to be working with Polarean, now having access to their most advanced hyperpolarised xenon equipment. With this new system, we will be able to image more patients more efficiently to see if we can uncover the underlying causes driving long COVID as part of our EXPLAIN study.”
Richard Hullihen, CEO of Polarean, said: “Oxford University is a leading pioneer in the use of Xe MRI to unravel the underlying pathophysiology that drives persistent breathlessness in patients with long COVID. We are delighted to collaborate with them on new image analyses as part of the upcoming EXPLAIN trial that might shed additional light on the mysterious illness that has been affecting a growing number of patients over the past few years and affecting their quality of life.”
Long COVID is an umbrella term used to describe ongoing symptoms following COVID-19 infection after four weeks. Symptoms are wide-ranging but breathlessness is one of the most common and can persist for months after the initial infection. Investigations including Computed Tomography (CT) and physiological measurements (lung function tests) can often be unremarkable. The mechanisms driving breathlessness remain unclear, and this may be hindering the development of effective treatments. Therefore, new diagnostic modalities are crucial to advance the care of these patients.
The EXPLAIN study, which involves teams in Oxford, Sheffield, Cardiff and Manchester, is using hyperpolarised xenon MRI scans to investigate possible lung damage in long COVID patients who have not been hospitalised with COVID-19 but who continue to experience breathlessness.
It is envisaged that 400 participants will be recruited. These include:
Patients diagnosed with long COVID, who have all been seen in dedicated long COVID clinics and who have normal CT scans
Participants who have been in hospital with COVID-19 and discharged more than three months previously, who have normal or nearly normal CT scans and who are not experiencing long COVID
An age- and gender-matched control group who do not have long COVID symptoms and who have not been hospitalised with COVID-19
The findings of an initial pilot study involving 36 people has identified abnormalities in the lungs of long COVID patients who had been experiencing breathlessness.
A polarisation device transforms the inert noble gas, 129xenon, into a hyperpolarised state using circularly polarised laser light. The hyperpolarised gas is inhaled by a patient to fill the space normally occupied by air in a single 10-second breath hold. The hyperpolarised gas then enhances the MRI signal, making regional lung function, including gas exchange, from the lungs to the blood visible in an MRI scan. The use of xenon MRI is non-invasive, and does not impart any radiation to the patient.
Appreciated Pete. I'm actually waiting for a lung scan currently as I have severe asthma but not expecting it to be anything other than clear, for the reasons you outlined.
I can only speak for myself but 'brain fog' has been the most devastating part of long covid personally.
After lots of lymphatic and glymphatic work, I'm on top of it now but for a while - well, it felt like dementia had started.
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My experience with Doctors when diagnosed with CFS was shit. Had multiple blood tests, all negative over long period. Diagnosis and then a shrug and goodbye. There is little support or any idea of a plan for recovery via doctors on the NHS. Not sure if the same for long covid but I suspect as much.
My experience entirely with long covid. I have a private MECFS diagnosis now.
I gave up on the GP a while back.
Glad you found something that helped you Kelvin, how are you these days?
I completely sacked off the doctor too, one of the best things I ever did to help my recovery, it was largely a negative experience. To offer some light at the end of the tunnel, I am largely better from CFS. It took a long time - approx 5-6 years - and was a lot of work. I had a huge amount of help from my partner researching stuff online and trying out so many different approaches. The biggest takeaway is that there is no simple way out of a chronic health condition, it's not a one size fits all, there is no magic pill. You have to find out what works for your own set of symptoms which are never the same as anyone else's.
And to everyone putting down positive thinking, if you can't stay positive when you are at your lowest ebb and believe there is a way back then you are truly fucked. You will continue the downward slide and end up in a bad place. Although not in my personality I did manage to remain positive and I think it was a huge part in me getting better.
For me, I have been very triggered by emotional triggers and stress. They have set me back and in some cases caused temporary relapses so although it's not "all in my head", these effects should never be underestimated.
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Glad you found something that helped you Kelvin, how are you these days?
I completely sacked off the doctor too, one of the best things I ever did to help my recovery, it was largely a negative experience. To offer some light at the end of the tunnel, I am largely better from CFS. It took a long time - approx 5-6 years - and was a lot of work. I had a huge amount of help from my partner researching stuff online and trying out so many different approaches. The biggest takeaway is that there is no simple way out of a chronic health condition, it's not a one size fits all, there is no magic pill. You have to find out what works for your own set of symptoms which are never the same as anyone else's.
And to everyone putting down positive thinking, if you can't stay positive when you are at your lowest ebb and believe there is a way back then you are truly fucked. You will continue the downward slide and end up in a bad place. Although not in my personality I did manage to remain positive and I think it was a huge part in me getting better.
For me, I have been very triggered by emotional triggers and stress. They have set me back and in some cases caused temporary relapses so although it's not "all in my head", these effects should never be underestimated.
So much truth and honesty there Shurt, it's really refreshing to hear!
That's f@#kin' ace you made it back to health :boxing: It's not an easy thing and takes so much when you really have nothing much to give, plus having a partner who's on your side makes everything easier.
As you say, it's a different journey for all of us and lots of relapses along the way. I'm doing okay - just over a year ago I bought a walking stick, my brain was falling apart and I didn't know what had hit me. I was scored at 2.5/10 and now I'm a 7/10. I'm absolutely going to recover.
UKB has played a part with the Black Dog Club and Sean Kenny has been a rock. Knowing someone is there, on the other end of messenger, who fully understands what fatigue actually is makes so much difference. Obviously, I wish he didn't have any experience in this but yeah, it's really helped.
I completely agree with you that positivity matters - you won't heal yourself if you're digging a pit for yourself in your head.
Words matter. Especially the words you speak to yourself internally.
It's really easy to separate 'you' from your body and blame your body from letting 'you' down, when the truth is you are one and the same thing. Your body is going to get you better, that's what it wants and what you want also. There's no good will come from treating your own body as the enemy 🤷🏻♂️ I've had to learn to be kinder to myself internally.
I don't think there are too many folk who now know more than me about the lymphatic system. I've had to learn with a head like jelly 🤣 and it's been tough but ultimately, so so rewarding. This year, science has shown/discovered new parts to the glymphatics of the brain. It's been exciting and confirming, I'm on the right path.
Don't discount anything. My Perrin Technique therapist calls me a seeker of knowledge but who else is going to find the way to fix me?
I'm really chuffed you got better. Really.
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My experience with Doctors when diagnosed with CFS was shit. Had multiple blood tests, all negative over long period. Diagnosis and then a shrug and goodbye. There is little support or any idea of a plan for recovery via doctors on the NHS. Not sure if the same for long covid but I suspect as much.
My experience entirely with long covid. I have a private MECFS diagnosis now.
I gave up on the GP a while back.
Glad you found something that helped you Kelvin, how are you these days?
I completely sacked off the doctor too, one of the best things I ever did to help my recovery, it was largely a negative experience. To offer some light at the end of the tunnel, I am largely better from CFS. It took a long time - approx 5-6 years - and was a lot of work. I had a huge amount of help from my partner researching stuff online and trying out so many different approaches. The biggest takeaway is that there is no simple way out of a chronic health condition, it's not a one size fits all, there is no magic pill. You have to find out what works for your own set of symptoms which are never the same as anyone else's.
And to everyone putting down positive thinking, if you can't stay positive when you are at your lowest ebb and believe there is a way back then you are truly fucked. You will continue the downward slide and end up in a bad place. Although not in my personality I did manage to remain positive and I think it was a huge part in me getting better.
For me, I have been very triggered by emotional triggers and stress. They have set me back and in some cases caused temporary relapses so although it's not "all in my head", these effects should never be underestimated.
As someone with severe and treatment-resistant depression (and who had ME/CFS in my teens, and has a bunch of other fun chronic conditions to deal with), I'm strongly in favour of trying to focus on the positive whenever possible.
I know how easy it is to get stuck in a spiral of despair, and it never helps anything.
The trouble is when you get told that if your symptoms aren't getting better, or are getting worse, it must be your fault because you're not thinking positively enough. Or that you'd be guaranteed to get better if only you think positively enough.
(Which is, ironically, a thing that tends to make you feel worse.)
I also think it's important and healthy as a human being to be able to acknowledge that sometimes things are kind of shitty and that you feel frustrated and awful about it. Sometimes you just need to shout "THIS SUCKS AND IT'S UNFAIR AND I HATE IT" for a moment, and then you pick yourself up and get on with dealing with it, you know?
People have coined the phrase "toxic positivity" to describe the pressure to only feel and display positive emotions at all times, and discussed how that can lead to blaming yourself if you can't be perfectly positive about everything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity
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People have coined the phrase "toxic positivity" to describe the pressure to only feel and display positive emotions at all times, and discussed how that can lead to blaming yourself if you can't be perfectly positive about everything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity
I spend a lot of time on the often toxic Twitter and 'toxic positivity' comes up all the time. Mostly in reference to family or friends trying to jolly you along, which is frustrating as f@#k. I speak from personal experience and nothing triggers me more
It's hard to hear it's going to be okay when you actually have no idea if it is.
I think perhaps it's best I clarify that when I talk about positivity, it's that internal never gave up attitude I have inside of me. I'm sure everyone has a very different position on what internal positivity is as it relates to them personally.
If you suffer from serious depression like my sister and stepdaughter, then it's never going to be as easy - my sister's version of positivity is very different to mine, we spoke at length about this. Hers is far more about managing to tread water.
As Shurt said, recovery is a very personal thing and for me, that has to include positivity because that's been me as a person all my life.
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People have coined the phrase "toxic positivity" to describe the pressure to only feel and display positive emotions at all times, and discussed how that can lead to blaming yourself if you can't be perfectly positive about everything:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity
I spend a lot of time on the often toxic Twitter and 'toxic positivity' comes up all the time. Mostly in reference to family or friends trying to jolly you along, which is frustrating as f@#k. I speak from personal experience and nothing triggers me more
It's hard to hear it's going to be okay when you actually have no idea if it is.
I think perhaps it's best I clarify that when I talk about positivity, it's that internal never gave up attitude I have inside of me. I'm sure everyone has a very different position on what internal positivity is as it relates to them personally.
If you suffer from serious depression like my sister and stepdaughter, then it's never going to be as easy - my sister's version of positivity is very different to mine, we spoke at length about this. Hers is far more about managing to tread water.
As Shurt said, recovery is a very personal thing and for me, that has to include positivity because that's been me as a person all my life.
Very much agreed -- I think there's a huge difference between trying to find that internal source of resilience and survival, whatever that means for you personally (and yeah, some days treading water is a win), and the external pressure to "think positive! It'll all be fine!".
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Hey Kelvin, I'm really glad to hear you are on the up and feeling like you're going to get back to some semblance of normality. It sounds like it's taken a lot of work which I get. I'm glad you very found some support on here. It's much needed and fuck me you find out who your friends are.
slab_happy
I'm not really too sure how it went from my post to toxic positivity compete with wikipedia link but there you go. I'm glad it was sort of cleared up afterwards. I decided right from the start that I wasn't going to be ill forever and was going to throw everything at getting better. That to me was being positive. I've had depression on and off for over 30 years so am hardly the type to be telling people to slap on a smile.
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Hi Shurt, given the issues raised by Monbiot’s article and the physiological vs psychological debate around CFS, slab-happy’s post makes perfect sense. I didn’t read any criticism of your post in that, but a differentiation from some of the less helpful ideas around the role of psychological outlook in recovery.
The Guardian published letter responses to the article, for those interested.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/15/why-mecfs-is-still-so-poorly-researched-and-treated
Most are positive, including one from Dr Charles Shepherd. Shepherd has been medical advisor to the ME Society for many years and written and researched extensively on the condition.
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Charles_Shepherd
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I don’t know whether this has been mentioned on here but the Nuffield have a free long Covid scheme. I don’t know any details but it is mentioned when you ring their hospital switch board.