UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: petejh on October 01, 2021, 09:31:18 am
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I climbed on painted wall this week, we tried Easel E linked into Painted Groove. I can't comment on Prisoners (which I think doesn't have any resin bolts on it), but the other routes on painted wall aren't trad. Unless trad counts as clipping 9 stainless resin bolts in 20 metres and not placing a single piece of gear. It climbs well enough. But it's a very strange thing that's gone on on that wall.. basically people have created a nice south-facing beachside sport crag at Rhoscolyn, without lower-offs and with a chossy finish. And then called it trad climbing. It's bizarre.
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I climbed on painted wall this week, we tried Easel E linked into Painted Groove. I can't comment on Prisoners (which I think doesn't have any resin bolts on it), but the other routes on painted wall aren't trad. Unless trad counts as clipping 9 stainless resin bolts in 20 metres and not placing a single piece of gear. It climbs well enough. But it's a very strange thing that's gone on on that wall.. basically people have created a nice south-facing beachside sport crag at Rhoscolyn, without lower-offs and with a chossy finish. And then called it trad climbing. It's bizarre.
:blink: sounds, erm, weird.
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Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165
If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).
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Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165
If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).
They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs. But they're most definitely bolts. I know the history of their design and I had a load of the same bolts here at home a few years ago. They were originally placed on Pen Trwyn on trad routes which relied on a crucial peg for their grade. The old pegs on those routes were replaced with these bolts-disguised-as-pegs. The thinking at the time being so as not to upset traditional mindsets by putting in an 'obvious' bolt in place of the peg.
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
I find the ethics of it bizarre. What bothers me most is that it's just dishonest. Call the equipment what it is.
The climb we tried was quite good fun but a bit contrived. A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
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Discussed on UKC at the time https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/bolts_now_ok_at_gogarth-727165
If I understand correctly, they're not new bolts per se but old pegs that have been replaced with new stainless kit that's been resined in place (so effectively as safe as a bolt).
They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs. But they're most definitely bolts. I know the history of their design and I had a load of the same bolts here at home a few years ago. They were originally placed on Pen Trwyn on trad routes which relied on a crucial peg for their grade. The old pegs on those routes were replaced with these bolts-disguised-as-pegs. The thinking at the time being so as not to upset traditional mindsets by putting in an 'obvious' bolt in place of the peg.
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
I find the ethics of it bizarre. What bothers me most is that it's just dishonest. Call the equipment what it is.
The climb we tried was quite good fun but a bit contrived. A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
Fantastic :worms: there!
Isn't it a key aspect whether these eco-pegs ahem retro-bolts are hammered into approximately the same slot / seam / crack as the peg they're supposed to replace (effectively a cemented peg) or have holes drilled out especially for them where a suitable placement never actually existed (effectively not a peg in the way pegs have always been used)?? Or indeed the grey area where the rotting stumps of original pegs are drilled out to allow space for them?? :devangel:
P.S. I clipped some at Clogwyn Yr Adar, a couple were cemented (not all!) but they all seemed to be in naturally occurring seams / slots that litter the crag, and hopefully were in very similar places to the old pegs they presumably replaced...
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As Pete days, they are a single square section leg bolt. No taper, so you couldn’t hammer them in like a peg. They have to go in a drilled hole. On The Stand belay two are glued in whereas the third has been left rattly presumably to give you some sort of trad experience.
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Ah. Well. I see. That's quite a thing then!
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Please by all means thread split this.
They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.
They're fixed gear. What people mean by peg/piton and, especially, bolt are pretty ill-defined. "Bolt" presumably originates from mechanical expansion anchors, to which a bolt (blunt metal screw-like object used with a nut) was integral. "Peg", arguably, better defines "bonded (epoxy resin) anchors" compared to "bolt".
In free climbing though, we basically mean "drilled" Vs "hammered", I suppose. (What a weird hobby we all have.)
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.
They were mainly designed to last (in-situ) a long time in fairly corrosive environments. As such, manufactured from stainless steel, there are limits to how they can be placed. So they almost always have to be placed with the aid of a drill. You can't, sensibly, hammer stainless steel into irregular placements and as such it's difficult to secure them without a bonding agent.
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
It's hyperbole (what, again?!) to say you place no leader-placed protection at that Rhoscolyn crag.
Is it the same person placing the fixed gear at all those crag you mention?
A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
Surely the most damning sentence in your post! Faint praise indeed!
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Please by all means thread split this.
And please called it "Retro-bolting Gogarth" too, to start things off on a good footing ;D :2thumbsup:
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Please by all means thread split this.
And please called it "Retro-bolting Gogarth" too, to start things off on a good footing ;D :2thumbsup:
Maybe just split and delete...
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I'm gonna put some of these "pegs" in my next Kilnsey proj and get me an E12! probably better than the 10mm expansions I was gonna use anyway...
Sounds fucking whack to me (no pun intended). Gibson or whoever it was who bolted Pembroke must be pissed knowing you're allowed to bolt British trad seacliff crags now you just need to paint the bolt brown and call it a drilled, glued, stainless steel peg...
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Sounds...
And this is the problem. Don't believe everything you read Barro.
What's actually been happening, in the vast majority of placements, is the clearance and replacement of defunct pegs or other unusual (eg hammered) fixed (or missing) gear.
... f#cking whack to me ...
Bear in mind our entire "sport" is entirely arbitrary...
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They're bolts. A square-section, notched, single-leg glue-in bolt designed to look like a peg. Sometimes painted black or brown, but more often left original.
They're fixed gear. What people mean by peg/piton and, especially, bolt are pretty ill-defined. "Bolt" presumably originates from mechanical expansion anchors, to which a bolt (blunt metal screw-like object used with a nut) was integral. "Peg", arguably, better defines "bonded (epoxy resin) anchors" compared to "bolt".
In free climbing though, we basically mean "drilled" Vs "hammered", I suppose. (What a weird hobby we all have.)
If you want you could call them sneaky bolts, because they're bolts designed to look like pegs.
They were mainly designed to last (in-situ) a long time in fairly corrosive environments. As such, manufactured from stainless steel, there are limits to how they can be placed. So they almost always have to be placed with the aid of a drill. You can't, sensibly, hammer stainless steel into irregular placements and as such it's difficult to secure them without a bonding agent.
Since then, it seems the disguised bolts have grown legs and gone on their travels to Forwyn, Gogarth, and now it seems a whole crag has been equipped with them at Rhoscoyln to create a sport-crag in disguise.
It's hyperbole (what, again?!) to say you place no leader-placed protection at that Rhoscolyn crag.
Is it the same person placing the fixed gear at all those crag you mention?
A 1 or 2 star 8a if it was in the peak.
Surely the most damning sentence in your post! Faint praise indeed!
I've had a very close association with the original manufacture of these glue-in anchors, and with the placement of them at Gogarth, among other places. I also have a bunch of these 'peg' bolts in my garage, painted black by the designer to make them look more like a mild steel peg found on typical UK trad. For clarity, I didn't place the ones on the Strand but I was there watching when they were placed. Nor have I placed any of the others that are on Gogarth, Rhoscolyn or Craig y Forwyn. I've been privy to knowledge of plenty of the placements, and how they were placed using the drill.
The bolts need to be drilled for the majority of placement because they were designed to be drilled and glued, not hammered. They are square section of approx 10mm diameter, and notched to lock in to the resin bond. As you say, the 316 stainless isn't designed to be hammered into cracks and hammering may damage the integrity. Now, that doesn't mean every one of these bolt-pegs *has* been drilled. Sure you can wiggle them into a suitably large enough placement and glue it in. It's impossible for an outsider who didn't place them to know which aren't drilled. And because they're 'sneaky' and made to look like pegs they're drilled into existing cracks so it looks like a peg placement (like that's a good thing...). And really.. does it matter whether it was placed with a hammer or with a hammer drill? That's open to debate.
I personally always felt uneasy about the idea of a deceptive bolt made to look like a peg because my personal ethics are that trad should strive to be getting rid of fixed steel placements not adding them, especially on sea cliffs. I despair at first ascensionists - or repeat ascents... - adding pegs to their routes, and consider it a poor fudge. Even in winter I've always strayed away from leaving anything fixed in any FAs I've been involved with. Sometimes the ethic fails.
Over the intervening years since those first disguised bolts were placed on Gogarth I've watched the resulting slow motion fall-out with interest as I always knew how controversial these things would eventually end up being if they spread.
The Rhoscolyn route we had a go on was 8 or 9 peg placements - 7 of them glued in stainless bolts, 2 normal hammered-in pegs, and no requirement to place your own leader-placed gear until right at the very top on easy ground just to top out. That's not hyperbole, that's what we experienced three days ago. Easel-EE - Painted Groove was like that. Surreal Appeal to its left may have a couple less or the same.. we didn't climb it.
That isn't trad climbing by my understanding of the activity. Hey, it's fun and they climb... 'ok'.. That's all, just ok because it felt like contrived climbing on a poorly thought out sport crag.
Lets just be honest about what we're doing, that's my main gripe with it. I don't understand why anyone would want to pretend that placing more pegs on sea cliffs is a good thing. To my simple mind: if fixed gear is deemed essential to climb a route then make it obviously fit for purpose, don't lie about what it is that's been placed, and don't try to do something that makes outsiders think they're clipping pegs in some kind of throwback to the 'golden days', which was just an unfortunate short-sighted ethical choice made back then for the attainment of a coveted first ascent, that ultimately left lots of routes and cliffs littered in unusable rusting steelwork.
Edited.
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*I* think the manufacture from stainless steel is relevant and replacement vs new additions also important.
I think the "sneaky" thing is overdone to some extent.
Beyond that, I don't think we disagree greatly.
My original question was a genuine:
Was it the same protagonist placing the fixed gear on Painted Walls as elsewhere?
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Ah OK apols I misunderstood that part of your post then. Have edited my post.
I don't know who re-geared painted walls. Doubt it was the original person (as elsewhere).
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All good. I'm aware my writing can come across as curt - it's not usually meant to. Also, I should have been clearer that my comment to Barrows was not a ref to your remarks but a nod to the UKC sh1t show thread.
I thought Paint Wall sounded different style to the original protagonist. Interesting. Hmm.
EDIT: removed deleted quote from earlier post and associated remarks (essentially that my original post was directed at the general readership)
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Pete seems to know what he's on about Tony, and you'll struggle to convince me that a drilled glued stainless 10mm peg isn't a bolt... so I remain surprised that people are okay with bolting Gogarth, even if only to replace pegs.. (I don't have a particular objection, if that's what the N Wales trad community wants to do, maybe it'll make me more keen to "trad" climb again!)
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Agree entirely with Pete. If it’s a drilled hole with a glued in bit of metal then it’s a bolt.
And if it’s a bit of metal smashed into a crack or something a la traditional pegs then trad should be moving away from that, particularly on sea cliffs, regardless of what metal is used.
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I agree. For what its worth here is a video showing a lost arrow peg being hammered into a crack by Yosemite legend Doug Robinson (at 56:28) (the rest of the video is good too if you have time). Rising ringing sound as its hammered home, now that's a peg!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LywkHdDUM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LywkHdDUM)
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Agree entirely with Pete. If it’s a drilled hole with a glued in bit of metal then it’s a bolt.
And if it’s a bit of metal smashed into a crack or something a la traditional pegs then trad should be moving away from that, particularly on sea cliffs, regardless of what metal is used.
I guess the fudge of using these stainless pegs kicks the hard decision into the long grass, i.e. deciding between:
1. Leaving it as an unprotected chop route naebody is every going to do (fine, there's plenty of other rock).
2. Actively choosing to have a weird fudge muddle ground of what is essentially a poor (from Pete's account, I've not been) trad-flavour contrived "anti-sport" route.
3. Just bolting it properly with lower-offs and bolts in sensible locations; then accepting that if we don't want manky fixed gear on trad sea cliffs, we either need to accept it is actually better as a sport route, or...see 1 & 2 above...
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Rising ringing sound as its hammered home, now that's a peg!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LywkHdDUM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LywkHdDUM)
Referencing his karabiner check at 59:35 for the nice tight sound....
(https://scontent.fman4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/218832276_10160044023228623_6633199969645307333_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=uMahRxFrhUsAX8VhxOz&_nc_ht=scontent.fman4-2.fna&oh=41c727fd3e94aad363d3c3a5ca90a9c5&oe=617D41D4)
....gotta love pegs on sea-cliffs.
Good topic, good to get these things out in the open.
Leaving aside the disintegrating rot of pegs on sea-cliffs for now, my take is that normal pegs are not sport climb protection, they are fixed trad protection (like threads). The key aspect for me is that normal pegs can only be placed in an existing weakness in the rock, and this has both a conceptual effect i.e. the peg is "accepting what the rock offers" (just like trad gear), and a practical effect for the climber i.e. the pegs can only be placed in certain, limited areas, and not always where one would like for perfect safety / comfort (just like trad gear). This is an aspect I personally like about pegs and where pegs are reasonable quality and pretty "crucial" i.e. little to no trad gear exists nearby, I like them overall.
If this aspect is overridden by drilling a specific, previously non-existent placement, then....it's a completely different. A bolt, say. And that - if it's in a bolt-free area - is an issue well worth investigating, discussing, chopping, etc etc....
Further, my take on peg replacement is that it should be on a case-by-case basis, with a general plan like:
1. If it's good quality and likely to remain so, leave it.
2. If it's poor and there's clear and reasonable trad gear nearby, remove it.
3. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, and on a limestone crag, consider replacing it with a single good bolt.
4. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, in a traditional bolt-free area, and could be replaced like for like with a peg likely to remain good, replace it like for like.
5. If it's originally good, now poor, fairly crucial, in a traditional bolt-free area, and could only be replaced by a drilled placement, refer it to a crack committee of PeteJH and TonyS for further investigation.
TL, DR: remove if not needed, like for like if possible, otherwise argue the toss on the internet (or just retro-bolt by stealth and hope you get away with it ::) ::) ::) )
BTW Pete, your two long edited but similar posts are now somewhat confusing back to back! Maybe a moderator could merge the two??
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I feel like the semantics of whether these are 'bolts' or 'pegs' is an unhelpful distraction.
They are what they are, which is effectively a slightly different thing in different cases:
Durable fixed protection that may or may not be drilled*, may or may not be resined*, and may or may not replace a previously existing piece of fixed protection.
I'm all for them if they replace what was formerly a good peg in a route which would be significantly compromised by the absence of something in that place - i.e. a route like Barbarossa, which changes from an excellent E6 to a (for most) unreasonably bold E7 without that single piece. Old rusty pegs are bullshit - if there's going to be a piece of fixed protection, it might as well be good, or at least be such that someone who didn't place it can make as informed a judgement about it as the person that did (which is usually the case for threads).
Clearly people will differ on where to draw the line on how 'necessary' fixed protection is for maintaining the character of a given route, or whether that character is worth maintaining. It seems impossible that there will ever be an established consensus on this, or a set of guidelines that don't sprout a thousand exceptions.
Out of interest, in the case of the Rhoscolyn routes, do these boltpegbolts replace existing pegs?
And is this in any way animated by people promoting big-number trad ascents that are actually quasi-sport?
*In most cases, by the sound of it, the former.
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Fiend, I thought I was editing my original post to make it read a bit less reactive to my perceived criticism from Tony, but it looks like I made a repeat post instead. I've asked Si (a.n.other admin?) to remove the first post.
On your use of that popular old chesnut of 'accepting what the rock offers'. I'd counter that pegs don't accept what the rock offers but rather they batter the rock into submission until it accepts what the peg is offering! Multiple hammer blows does not imply acceptance on behalf of the receiver!
Further to the case for pegs not being 'trad gear', you don't trad climb with a hammer*. You do carry slings for threads.
*Unless you're making first ascents in the Canadian Rockies in which case a hammer is more used part of the trad rack than the wires or cams.
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I clarified previously (though subsequently made less prominent, as Pete and I both edited our messages after better understanding one another), my original post was not directed towards Pete who, I am well aware, knows the history and development. It was, rather, providing fuller information about these pieces of fixed gear to the wider readership than was present in the original post.
*I* don't really make a great distinction between a peg and a bolt. My criteria are more*: (1) Accepted sport crags / sport sectors of crags Vs trad crags /sectors; (2) replacement of (pre-)existing fixed gear Vs new placements/routes.
* As ever, it's not that simple.
If we previously tolerated the placement of mild steel pegs in 'natural' placements then I don't get excited when they're replaced with a longterm solution which isn't immediately removed simply "because it's a bolt". Obviously, it is more complicated when there has been an evolution of ascents (ascents as the peg has rotted and then broken); that is, when/who decides if a piece of fixed gear is "crucial".
I don't know the area so well but it's not just N Wales, Avon has mixed peg/bolt/trad routes.
In my original post I was trying to highlight that "bolt", to climbers, is a particularly emotive term when we really just mean drilled Vs hammered - which I find amusing.
Otherwise, basically what Andy and Pete said.
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Just my 0:02. The starting seam / crack / slot / pocket does exist, it's not just blank rock, any deformation comes from the bit of inserted gear itself. The demonstration in the video Kingy linked sums it up for me, hammering into that wee seam is the true romance of pegs :smirk:
No it's not purely logical but it makes sense to me. Then again what aspects of these ethical debates are purely logical?!
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On your use of that popular old chesnut of 'accepting what the rock offers'. I'd counter that pegs don't accept what the rock offers but rather they batter the rock into submission until it accepts what the peg is offering! Multiple hammer blows does not imply acceptance on behalf of the receiver!
Exactly. This hammering of bits of metal into ‘natural’ placements is what’s turned what should be an easy distinction to make into the fudgy murky mess that we have now.
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While we're here I'll throw this into the melting pot of absolutely rational and clear cut distinctions between trad crags and sport crags (because of course climbing fundamentally works as unarguably black and white guidelines and never as a fudgy murky mess of grey areas) etc etc.
Hell's Wall, Bowderstone Crag. IIRC it has either 11 or 13 pegs, some reasonable, some poor, and almost no natural gear on it (I watched Adam working it). How many bolts would be needed to provide a reasonably protected sport route, and would that be an improvement or regression in fixed gear ethics??
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I feel like the semantics of whether these are 'bolts' or 'pegs' is an unhelpful distraction.
They are what they are, which is effectively a slightly different thing in different cases:
Durable fixed protection that may or may not be drilled*, may or may not be resined*, and may or may not replace a previously existing piece of fixed protection.
I'm all for them if they replace what was formerly a good peg in a route which would be significantly compromised by the absence of something in that place - i.e. a route like Barbarossa, which changes from an excellent E6 to a (for most) unreasonably bold E7 without that single piece. Old rusty pegs are bullshit - if there's going to be a piece of fixed protection, it might as well be good, or at least be such that someone who didn't place it can make as informed a judgement about it as the person that did (which is usually the case for threads).
Clearly people will differ on where to draw the line on how 'necessary' fixed protection is for maintaining the character of a given route, or whether that character is worth maintaining. It seems impossible that there will ever be an established consensus on this, or a set of guidelines that don't sprout a thousand exceptions.
Out of interest, in the case of the Rhoscolyn routes, do these boltpegbolts replace existing pegs?
And is this in any way animated by people promoting big-number trad ascents that are actually quasi-sport?
*In most cases, by the sound of it, the former.
Andy, I'm in general agreement about good routes being preserved by intelligent use of good sustainable fixed protection.
I'm not objecting to good fixed gear being placed where deemed sensible. What I object to is the story that's told about it.
By which I mean the narrative being spun about these non-pegs is a bullshit narrative designed to subtly deceive climbers into thinking drilled glued bolts aren't being placed on trad routes. They are, and that should be made transparent and then people can deal with their thoughts about it in a rational process of investigating what it is about this arbitrary game of climbing they most value and what change they can accept.
The current ethic of quietly pretending these pieces of fixed gear are 'replacement pegs' - which paints the picture of traditional old-school ideas of trad - to me is deliberately misleading and that deception has the unintended longer term consequence of leading other climbers, who don't have access to these stainless glue-in pegbolts, to think that it's acceptable to be placing yet more mild steel pegs on sea cliffs. Repeating the cycle of 'bullshit rotting pegs' into the future. When instead we could be honest about the need to do something better and that it's probably going to need to involve a drill, resin and stainless bolts in some cases. The 'bolts' can look like pegs if it offends people's sensibilities that much. Just be honest that they're still bolts.
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So is your stance "Retro the fuck out of Gogarth etc, as long as you're clear, open, and honest about it" ?? :yes:
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I think the problem is that the perfect solution (a consensus) is extremely difficult/unlikely to achieve. The use of stainless steel fixed gear to replace rotten hammered gear was a pragmatic solution available in the present.
I think the answer to Andy's questions about whether the Painted Wall routes had pegs replaced or added is relevant.
I think the use of stainless steel gear is unlikely to promote placement of mild steel pegs because it's counter to that (the point is the longevity), and -moreover- is actually quite a lot of work and few seem keen to do it.
(Does anyone go trad'ing these days anyway?)
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I think the use of stainless steel gear is unlikely to promote placement of mild steel pegs because it's counter to that (the point is the longevity), and -moreover- is actually quite a lot of work and few seem keen to do it.
Well the example of painted wall suggests that isn't true, because newly placed mild steel pegs *have* also been placed on projects to the right of Easel-EE from the looks of it.
Like I say, the inevitable consequence of spinning a deceptive narrative* that makes pegs look acceptable on sea-cliffs... is yet more pegs on sea-cliffs, many of which inevitably won't be stainless resin'd bomber bolts.
*That isn't aimed at any one person in case of doubt, it's just a fairly predictable consequence of decisions made by multiple people.
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(Does anyone go trad'ing these days anyway?)
Me, I love it, especially when there's pegs to clip.
The question as to whether the bolts are replacing pegs or adding to them is indeed relevant and hopefully a bit more clear cut, i.e. hopefully that shouldn't bloody happen unless there's been a clear and deliberate consensus to turn a crag into a sport crag.
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That sounds entirely sensible but it falls down. On routes that are very heavily pegged, as is the case with the painted wall routes (among others.. the various roofs @ Gogarth..) it isn't black and white to know what's a replacement and what's a new placement. How many pegs were originally in place isn't something well-known or accurately recorded. Go on - how many in-situ pegs on
4th Dimension RoofRack at Gogarth? Do we break the rules if we replace with 9 bolts instead of 7 pegs or 11 bolts instead of 12 pegs? Who's count? What about blown pegs?
edit: wrong route not F.D
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What French grade is 4th Dimension now and do you lower-off into the sea??
P.S. Yes sounds like issues well worth debating. It's almost like the whole thing is full of complexities, nuances, grey areas, etc :-\
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By which I mean the narrative being spun about these non-pegs is a bullshit narrative designed to subtly deceive climbers into thinking drilled glued bolts aren't being placed on trad routes. They are, and that should be made transparent and then people can deal with their thoughts about it in a rational process of investigating what it is about this arbitrary game of climbing they most value and what change they can accept.
The current ethic of quietly pretending these pieces of fixed gear are 'replacement pegs' - which paints the picture of traditional old-school ideas of trad - to me is deliberately misleading and that deception has the unintended longer term consequence of leading other climbers, who don't have access to these stainless glue-in pegbolts, to think that it's acceptable to be placing yet more mild steel pegs on sea cliffs. Repeating the cycle of 'bullshit rotting pegs' into the future. When instead we could be honest about the need to do something better and that it's probably going to need to involve a drill, resin and stainless bolts in some cases. The 'bolts' can look like pegs if it offends people's sensibilities that much. Just be honest that they're still bolts.
I broadly agree with you on this, though I'm not totally convinced on a couple of points (and I concede this may depend on the detail of conversations with protagonists that paint these things in a different light)...
On the point of deliberate deception - well firstly, as this thread shows, it's not a very good deception! But I agree there is a knowing muddying of the water with these - it is obvious that they are intended to slip by where a shiny Petzl bolt hanger visible from the ground would quickly draw attention. On the one hand, you can interpret this as underhanded and exploitative of climbers' good faith ethics, but more generously, you could say that it's a pragmatic and unobtrusive solution to a fairly irresolvable grey area. Is it possible they could actually encourage a more rational investigation of fixed-gear ethics, even if it is seemingly smuggled in the back door?
Also, if they are only replacing existing pegs*, in places where the peg makes a significant different to the safety of the route, then the fact that they are sequestered in apparent weaknesses in the rock and painted so as not to glint in the sunshine has an aesthetic appeal that isn't necessarily only about hiding what they are?
Partly I'm playing devil's advocate here, the jury's out for me and in the recent proliferation of these things in N Wales there are some I'd support and others not so much.
* I know this hasn't always been the case
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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.
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Pete, by any chance do you know if the ones placed at Adar are all like-for-like replacements of existing pegs, or if some of those are additional pegs that add more fixed gear to the routes compared to how they were originally??
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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.
I've climbed at Rhoscolyn, but not painted wall, so I'm not sure of the "feel". However, it strikes me that perhaps the reason that they now feel less satisfactory as a "well pegged trad route" is because they were a bit nonsense in their original guise? I.e. a trad route that needs 9/10 pegs and has no fixed ain't really in keeping with the general UK ethic of trad. Could it be argued that It's a route that rightly *should have* been a sport route in the first place? Hence why it now feels contrived / unsatisfactory?
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Pete, by any chance do you know if the ones placed at Adar are all like-for-like replacements of existing pegs, or if some of those are additional pegs that add more fixed gear to the routes compared to how they were originally??
If the one near Dolwyddelan then I haven't climbed there sorry. Tried to go last month but couldn't park! Keen for a trip though.
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Looking at the UKC logbook for Easel-EE and Surreal Appeal, various comments from this summer imply (respectively) that there is a fair bit of gear to be placed on lead, and that not all the pegs are reliable - have they been very recently re-equipped, or are some of those comments a little misleading?
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I'd say the comments are misleading.
My climbing partner tried to onsight Easel-EE into Painted Groove, it looking like the most appealing and obvious visual line. (He'd done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins). He took a small rack of wires & cams and climbed to the 8th peg on the picture below, on lead onsight, without placing a single piece of gear as the pegs are glue'd in bolts except for the 4th (backed up by a glue-in) and the 8th which is a standard peg. He didn't OS it, had to take rests in various spots. I top-roped it, not cleanly, overall it felt quite stiff 8a. We both agreed we felt it was like average quality sport climbing, although I didn't have the benefit of being on lead.
My first visit to the crag was this week so I can't comment on when the resin pegbolts were placed. Topo suggests 2019.
The below pic illustrates what we climbed. Easel-EE into Painted Groove (the most obvious visual line we thought). The black dots are the pegbolts. The 4th is a standard peg (backed up by glue-in), the 8th is a standard peg. Top out is easier and rambly, pretty chossy.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fXwYdz_FO0sGUwWiW-vftKFImxEOR0m-kfq7f-da_JgHqhFLKyo9bLaglGwH4RNfU4xQtAaupxtWNRWs9NJnNZAg_HkKkCixE5Jn_Y7LtXxtm14wvm5wjXHxopC2KXuKeDbj9Y4QRO8D4gNUZ2j_JmcA9W2P5jeYwa64TFUN8BVDYoeeiK5D4A_Ng47VNYEkrgfUPbAksJj-_IhgSSXv7j0tE3vuT7R0ewT_ED4vYSDndAlsUUEG2cUDWd2IgVzg38lgIhxWgb7vpD6RF2bu58MD9wn-zkgeUm5jwY1l1PjpHCumye7vaFltZzkzpQXpadWoTb_2lCGMiOgDtqGU-Zjq4lXkW8ZVevj8J3yT1UaNXPfcY-moZR1Z7zZpzbUkdHWOR6HEI_eAxmU_cPNy_f7RDjCsSM6fhfpQCa16kDVZR1HLc-qH4RYjyNYDoTKtUK3v-s4Y_VXsqkaVdOom6GTTgyTiqCfvQlzO1nmecLz_738RECHGouF_kbMkqF8YvAnSqz_MK14-7Wmnz_Q-bGKJ977V5ecNr1E3Qiq9_5-YalRgFx1VL0zHSPpJ9hRWVn3HHQBQU5mBaWhgyY2kVSXuYIa48RS8EO-DIj66tLuohzCjdxtUPOSJCTfZ7rkBUiNC7d1nu6jYBvcGd1Cvfpap6BvN--us-zwdTaWhPNvUa6Dvtn2meAi4_W9dZ9_vo-3-l99LxgptnFiIBCDzMs_T=w834-h686-no?authuser=0)
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Thanks for the info. Sunny sporty climbing off the beach sounds good, though it's interesting your quality assessment is more in line with the guidebook than whoever has gone full razz with the stars on that topo.
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I was of pretty much exactly the opinions above when the pegbolts started going in around 5 years ago.
More recently I've seen them spread to Forwyn where I think - and know I'm not alone - that they've been overdone a little but in general make the crag better. Painted Walls was the point where I thought it's just got a bit silly and the story we're telling ourselves is a bit too disingenuous for comfort because it's basically a sport crag on the beach, disguised as trad. Nothing wrong with beaches and sport crags. I'm a big fan. Call it what it is.
I've climbed at Rhoscolyn, but not painted wall, so I'm not sure of the "feel". However, it strikes me that perhaps the reason that they now feel less satisfactory as a "well pegged trad route" is because they were a bit nonsense in their original guise? I.e. a trad route that needs 9/10 pegs and has no fixed ain't really in keeping with the general UK ethic of trad. Could it be argued that It's a route that rightly *should have* been a sport route in the first place? Hence why it now feels contrived / unsatisfactory?
A lot of the sport climbs in Devon were first put up with pegs - e.g Empire of the Sun, Just Revenge etc at Anstey's, before getting retro'd later.
Looking at the crag, I can see it getting de-bolted as much as properly bolted. The fudge is what's wrong here in my opinion. It's what leads to more established areas getting bolted "by stealth".
Cut the crap re using glued/drilled pegs as bolts, and make a better decision. It's a great looking wall.
Bolts are just getting sprayed everywhere now, with a lot of the routes just meaningless dross.
It's the way the decision gets made that leads to the unsatisfactory outcome. I ripped drilled pegs out of The Sanctuary Wall in Devon, but there are routes there which might be better preserved with a bolt. There's a long history of trad routes being established with the odd bolt for protection, being subsequently removed - or occasionally not.
I wonder what the routes would be like without the fixed gear?
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Not sure about them spreading onto Gogarth but painted wall has seen so much attention and traffic this year since the ‘re pegging’ cough.
These routes may have gone unclimbed for years. Probably had 30 ascents between the two ‘sporty’ E7’s. Both excellent.
Thats my thoughts anyway. I had a great day climbing them both, something i wouldnt have done if they still had rotting pegs in them.
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I suspect a lot of poorly protected routes which would get much more attention if they were bolted.
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I suspect a lot of poorly protected routes which would get much more attention if they were bolted.
Thats the thing though. Its the rotten pegs that make it poorly protected. On the FA it wasnt poorly protected.
I can see both sides of argument here, all i am saying is more people have enjoyed these routes in last year than did in 20 years.
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I propose we call these things pinos, I.e pegs in name only. :)
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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?
Separately, I'm not comfortable with the overly simple argument of justifying everything on the basis of popularity etc. We'll be leaving Europe next. Imagine what a mess that'd leave us in.
How many routes are there that might be kind of fun as a clip up, but I'd probably be less likely to do without pre-drilled gear?
Are we trying to "produce" routes, or in some way record ascents?
Consumed or experienced? I appreciate that's a slightly contrived distinction, but I think it's one we're all familiar with.
Use the same set of holds 50+ times, and we're inclined to assume the former, but I think that's a mistake, with trad, anyway.
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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?
I don't know. I hadn't heard that rumour till now.
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Bonjoy, what happened to the gear on Toploader at Millstone?
Weren't some of those pegs drilled?
I don't know. I hadn't heard that rumour till now.
Really?!? - I thought that was a really well aired rumour. :worms:
I've never really voiced this to anyone other than a few people down the pub, and I'm not slinging muck as I dont really care that much either way, it's in the dim distant past now.
All I can say are two things I know to be fact.
a: - Jon Wilson had abbed, closely inspected and top roped that line not too long before it was done. I recall him saying something along the lines of "I never found any peg placements"
b: - I was in the same bay some time after and found a rock with lots of small ~6mm holes drilled in it. It was in the days of 24v NiCd batteries and it was standard practice to completely drain your battery once you'd finished using it by drilling more holes prior to recharging it, as it maintained the life of the batteries. Never put two and two together until a few years later and heard about the rumour that the pegs were drilled. Why would someone have had a drill in that bay?!?
Just saying.
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b: - I was in the same bay some time after and found a rock with lots of small ~6mm holes drilled in it. It was in the days of 24v NiCd batteries and it was standard practice to completely drain your battery once you'd finished using it by drilling more holes prior to recharging it, as it maintained the life of the batteries.
I heard Jealous Pensioner was just an accumulation of attempts to drain drill batteries - they must have only had XXL drill bits that day. ;D
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:lol:
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Cross-posting this over here (where I should have asked the question...)
Now you can answer my prior question: are all the new bolts drilled and cemented there? And do you think any have been added, or are they just replacing old / removed bolts?
Yes they’re cemented, and yes they will have had the placement drilled to accept the resin and the bolt. It’s not possible to say 100% for certain, without being there during placement, whether or not every one of them has been drilled because there *might* have been a nice convenient 12mm diameter 100mm deep hole in the part of the crack where the bolt is placed. Allowing it to have had the resin pumped in and then push in the bolt by hand (they aren’t designed to be hammered due to being stainless). But what do you think the likelihood is of that…
So there you are. Mountain crag trad-climbing with resin bolts protecting. Rhoscolyn sea cliff-climbing on resin bolts.
That’s what we’re doing. I’m fine with it where it climbs well. What I’m not fine with is what appears to me to be a sort of complicit wilful ignorance surrounding these bolts. I think we should be honest about what these pieces of protection are, not spinning people some bullshit about them being pegs.
Stealth bolts on mountain crags too (Clogwyn Yr Adar and Castell Cidwm (the things at Cidwm are identical to the things at Adar, I wasn't peering too closely on the Central Wall crux (slopers in the sun!!) to check for resin glue....).
Next question is: Who is doing all this??
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Stealth pegs in the mountains, been going on since...Slochd Wall? Drzzzz drzzzzz
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Hi Pete,
So to answer a load of questions and pick out some issues I'm joining in the discussion late to the game here.
I replaced the old pegs with the new glue in bolts. I have only ever referred to them as bolts or sometimes 'pegbolts' when talking about them, I have never tried to be "stealth" about them in any way, I have always been honest when asked. I asked many people about using them before going ahead for example I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know) who encouraged me to use the 'pegbolts' if there was no other way.
The reason I replaced the pegs on EE was because when I tried to shunt the route (hadn't been climbed in 25 years) I back-clipped my rope into the old pegs to keep me in. When I weighted the rope multiple peg heads snapped off. There were a total of 18 pegs in EE (yes 18 pegs in 12m) before the join with SA, presumably placed by Twid in 1994/5. All the pegs in EE were totally rotten and unusable. The route has no natural gear so the only option was to replace them or call it a defunct route. I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution. I think 6 evenly spaced pegbolts in the holes left by the old rusted pegs (that took me a very long time to clean out) is much better than 18 rusted pegs that wouldn't hold the weight of a quickdraw. IDK but that makes a lot on sense to me!
I'm sure Caff went for the EE into groove line as I had recently published a topo and left that line as a open project, Caff seems to like the experience of an FA so I'm guessing that's why he went for that one rather than the numerous 3 star routes on that wall. Fine no issues there - enjoy yourself, I'm glad someone enjoyed the open projects. But to just go on this link and then to say the wall is now a sport venue is just very wrong Pete. The only route with the pegbolts is EE (and EE/groove as that uses EE). There is 1 at the top of the groove as I thought that was the Finish to EE as the old Guidebook had suggested which now acts as the final pegbolt for the link. Caff even reported this route when he did the FA as an 8a rather than a trad grade, I agree with that appraisal. No-one else has climbed this link to date (to my knowledge) so I don't know who all these people you are talking about are who are claiming trad grades for sport routes. EE the line goes into SA at half height, it is true that the first half is on pegbolts but the top has a good size runout and requires gear in the top section, it's not a sport route be any means. Surreal Appeal does not use any of the pegbolts on EE.
Surreal Appeal had 9 pegs when I found it - 3 remain and are basically useless the other 6 are lumps of rust. I have climbed SA with and without clipping the pegs, first with, then without to prove a point to myself that makes no difference to the grade as the pegs are mostly next to good cams anyway. You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them.
To be clear, there are no bolt belays, or pegbolt belays or anything fixed (besides 1 stake). The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets. There is a stake in the turf I placed near the top of Prisioners of the sun so I could put in a rope 5m left of the stones and practice it on my own.
I have since cleaned and climbed 3 more routes on the wall, none of which use any pegs, pegbolts or anything else fixed! None of the new routes on that wall have fixed gear, a conscious effort to reduce the problem of using unsustainable methods that stop the enjoyment of future generations. This is best practice for moving forward IMO, there is no fixed gear on any of the 20+ new routes I've done in Wales. The only fixed gear I have ever replaced are these pegs on EE and the 1 at the top of the groove, as I have already explained this is because the route is a solo without them.
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Good explanatory post. Do you know who put the retro-peg-bolts in Clogwyn Yr Adar by any chance??
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Hi Pete,
So to answer a load of questions and pick out some issues I'm joining in the discussion late to the game here.
I replaced the old pegs with the new glue in bolts. I have only ever referred to them as bolts or sometimes 'pegbolts' when talking about them, I have never tried to be "stealth" about them in any way, I have always been honest when asked. I asked many people about using them before going ahead for example I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know) who encouraged me to use the 'pegbolts' if there was no other way.
The reason I replaced the pegs on EE was because when I tried to shunt the route (hadn't been climbed in 25 years) I back-clipped my rope into the old pegs to keep me in. When I weighted the rope multiple peg heads snapped off. There were a total of 18 pegs in EE (yes 18 pegs in 12m) before the join with SA, presumably placed by Twid in 1994/5. All the pegs in EE were totally rotten and unusable. The route has no natural gear so the only option was to replace them or call it a defunct route. I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution. I think 6 evenly spaced pegbolts in the holes left by the old rusted pegs (that took me a very long time to clean out) is much better than 18 rusted pegs that wouldn't hold the weight of a quickdraw. IDK but that makes a lot on sense to me!
I'm sure Caff went for the EE into groove line as I had recently published a topo and left that line as a open project, Caff seems to like the experience of an FA so I'm guessing that's why he went for that one rather than the numerous 3 star routes on that wall. Fine no issues there - enjoy yourself, I'm glad someone enjoyed the open projects. But to just go on this link and then to say the wall is now a sport venue is just very wrong Pete. The only route with the pegbolts is EE (and EE/groove as that uses EE). There is 1 at the top of the groove as I thought that was the Finish to EE as the old Guidebook had suggested which now acts as the final pegbolt for the link. Caff even reported this route when he did the FA as an 8a rather than a trad grade, I agree with that appraisal. No-one else has climbed this link to date (to my knowledge) so I don't know who all these people you are talking about are who are claiming trad grades for sport routes. EE the line goes into SA at half height, it is true that the first half is on pegbolts but the top has a good size runout and requires gear in the top section, it's not a sport route be any means. Surreal Appeal does not use any of the pegbolts on EE.
Surreal Appeal had 9 pegs when I found it - 3 remain and are basically useless the other 6 are lumps of rust. I have climbed SA with and without clipping the pegs, first with, then without to prove a point to myself that makes no difference to the grade as the pegs are mostly next to good cams anyway. You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them.
To be clear, there are no bolt belays, or pegbolt belays or anything fixed (besides 1 stake). The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets. There is a stake in the turf I placed near the top of Prisioners of the sun so I could put in a rope 5m left of the stones and practice it on my own.
I have since cleaned and climbed 3 more routes on the wall, none of which use any pegs, pegbolts or anything else fixed! None of the new routes on that wall have fixed gear, a conscious effort to reduce the problem of using unsustainable methods that stop the enjoyment of future generations. This is best practice for moving forward IMO, there is no fixed gear on any of the 20+ new routes I've done in Wales. The only fixed gear I have ever replaced are these pegs on EE and the 1 at the top of the groove, as I have already explained this is because the route is a solo without them.
:wall: :wall: Not sure I’ve got the strength for this….
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Good explanatory post. Do you know who put the retro-peg-bolts in Clogwyn Yr Adar by any chance??
I don't know who placed the ones at Clogwyn Yr Adar. A bunch of new stuff was done around the same time the pegbolts appeared there, I'm not saying that it was them, but the peeps who did the new stuff might be good people to ask about it.
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Thanks for posting James.
I asked Caff (the climbing partner you refer to in your post for anyone who doesn't know)
Caff wasn’t my climbing partner when I climbed there, and I wasn’t referring to Caff in my post. Therefore many of the rest of your assumptions around Caff climbing the routes are incorrect because my post isn’t about him. Other climbers have been on those routes.. I was with one of them.
You said “(He'd [Caff] done Surreal Appeal years ago OS before it was re-equipped with glue-ins).” Surreal Appeal has NO pegbolts at all- get your facts strait before spraying BS on the web! It goes on natural pro so should stay on natural pro, I didn't replace any of the rotten pegs because of the natural pro. EE had no natural pro so would be defunct without them, therefore I replaced them.
Regards Surreal Appeal, again I’m not talking about Caff here, so the assumptions you're making are incorrect. Other climbers have onsighted this route, they’re more under the radar than Caff. It’s unimportant who the climber was but rest assured he had climbed SA o/s years ago. I thought at least one of the glue-in bolts was clippable on SA but I take your point that it isn't a clip-up.
I talked to the north wales bolt fund, the first ascensionist (Twit) and people in the community I was generally encouraged to use the 'pegbolts' as this is the most sustainable solution.
To be told by these people that ‘peg bolts are the most sustainable solution’ - and for you to believe it and repeat that line - is somewhat disingenuous and exactly the sort of bollocks that people roll out when an issue is controversial enough to not want to tackle head-on but they want to get something done. ‘Pegbolts’ are *a* sustainable solution, they aren’t *the most* sustainable solution. They're a fudge, to avoid people seeing bolts on these cliffs by disguising bolts as pegs.
Well placed glue-in 316 bolts would be the most sustainable solution from a protection POV. A glue-in 'pegbolt', that looks like a peg becuase it's been placed in a recess as per a typical peg placement, (but requires placing like a bolt because it is a bolt), in a way that makes it slightly tricky to clip, in a recess where it can cross-loads a biner etc. This is not 'the most sustainable solution' if we're talking about placing bolts on routes.
The underlying issue on this cliff and the surrounding area (Gogarth/Rhoscolyn) is that bolts are obvious, and people don’t like bolts on these cliffs (rightly or wrongly, that’s open to debate). So, the lines have been deliberately blurred by the invention of peg-bolts, i.e. bolts look like pegs, to avoid the difficult issue of placing bolts openly. I strongly suggest the underlying motive is disingenuous – not from you - the whole ‘peg-bolt’ invention is, and people who go along with it are kidding themselves with 'it's the most sustainable solution'. Don't misunderstand me - it actually might be... But people aren't being very honest about the whole thing which I think is a shit way to be.
The obvious direction of travel is more routes that were ruined in the 80s and 90s by being pegged to death to make an FA will either be bolted to make them great routes, some might be done completely on gear, or left unclimbed because the pegs are trash. I don't have strong opinions either way on what should happen but whatever's done should be done honestly.
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Ok my assumption it was Caff was wrong there are plenty of under the radar wads about but that doesn't change the point.
None of the pegbolts are clipable from SA without a good traverse off to the right, SA has been maintained in its origional condition, albeit sub a few rusted pegs now-a-days.
Granted pegbolts may not be the best or only solution to the problem created by past ethics of anything goes re pegs, but they are much more long term than any other practice ive seen used so far.
The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.
"wanting to get stuff done" wasn't my motive when putting the pegbolts in EE, I would have preferred to do it on gear but none exists. I was very careful not to effect any other routes in the process.
I sort of agree with you that the lines have been blurred deliberately so the pegbolta can go under the radar. Perhaps a wider discussion could have been had years ago before they were used. I asked a lot of people before I used them and nobody said anything againced them in placements where nothing else was possible and a route would be made climbable again. Perhaps I just selected people who were already on board with them in some sort of unconscious bias?
I was honest at the time I placed them, and I'm honest about them now. I agree, transparency is key to a good discussion.
Ps. Sorry for getting in a bit of a rant on my post last night, it was late and I was feeling tired and defensive :yawn:
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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.
WTF!! Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
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Nice one Ken :bounce:
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"the route is a solo without them"
"(for most) unreasonably bold E7"
...
Only apply when people approach their subjective comfort limit? It's not only about the walls between the cracks either because there are bolts adjacent to standard gear placements in The Cruise, The Horrorshow, Quickstep. Should we also be talking about bold E1's "if there was no other way" or is it only relevant for E6+? Or should we be accepting that when past protagonists created climbs on pegs, that these were ultimately unsustainable with the maintenance of our shared ethics?
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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.
WTF!! Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
James isn't saying bolt the crag!
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"the route is a solo without them"
"(for most) unreasonably bold E7"
...
Only apply when people approach their subjective comfort limit? It's not only about the walls between the cracks either because there are bolts adjacent to standard gear placements in The Cruise, The Horrorshow, Quickstep. Should we also be talking about bold E1's "if there was no other way" or is it only relevant for E6+? Or should we be accepting that when past protagonists created climbs on pegs, that these were ultimately unsustainable with the maintenance of our shared ethics?
In fairness to James it wasn’t him who put the pegbolts in the cruise, horror show or quickstep.
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I'm just waiting for someone to come along with a comment about how trivial this discussion is in the wider context of us being on the brink of world war 3 and how we shouldn't even be wasting our time discussing it.
We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.
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The pegbolts I placed should / could have gone in slightly better places for clipping but that would have required a drill rather than an excavation of the old peg placement (some of which were already drilled). It is annoying and does mean that 2 of the the pegbolts need tying off so no crossloading action occurs. This is regrettable, perhaps I should go back and take those 2 out and place them in good rock in the flow of the climb where a well placed bolt would go, using a drill.
WTF!! Guess what? I’m banging the same old drum….. leave the fucking drill at home! It’s a sea cliff in a trad climbing area. We shouldn’t be drilling holes or putting pegs in…. Or fuck it and just bolt the crag! That’ll be way more convenient, probably be popular too.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
LOL, I can't believe you feel for that bait (slow reply but I've only just re-read James' post).
Perhaps a wider discussion could have been had years ago before they were used. I asked a lot of people before I used them and nobody said anything againced them in placements where nothing else was possible and a route would be made climbable again. Perhaps I just selected people who were already on board with them in some sort of unconscious bias?
I strongly suspect this is about right. Asking the North Wales Bolt Fund hmmmm..... And the person who laced it with pegs in the first place....
I'm just waiting for someone to come along with a comment about how trivial this discussion is in the wider context of us being on the brink of world war 3 and how we shouldn't even be wasting our time discussing it.
We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.
I'm pretty sure That Style Of Post could be used to attempt, and fail to, negate most discussions on this forum. Unless WW3 will severely affect the price of pegbolts....
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We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.
something like Godwin's law. Don't think it happens that often on UKB
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We really need to come up with a term for that style of post as it happens pretty often.
something like Godwin's law. Don't think it happens that often on UKB
Surely no one here thinks that there is anything more important than climbing anyway? If so, burn the heretic!
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To paraphrase Billl Shankly "Somebody said that climbing
football's a matter of life and death to you, I said 'listen, it's more important than that'."
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How easy is it to set up a top rope on this wall and where can I find details of the routes etc? Are they in Gogarth South? I’m stuck for climbing partners and looking for venues for getting fit on
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Easy. Footpath goes along the top of the crag, there’s a boulder and an old stake to rig a shunt line. The rock’s a bit loose where you first go over the edge, but it’s OK because you can isolate the rope into one of the 8 bolts below if working Easel EE. :)
Painted Wall is in the Gogarth south guide with the two E7s Easel EE and Surreal Appeal shown. Newer routes (non-bolted) can be found on James Taylor’s blog.
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Just re-reading this and realised I’d missed this gem first time round:
The belay is just some boulders, 1 was already there and the other 2 I asked the farmer to put there with his tractor - about as natural as it gets.