UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Paul B on July 22, 2019, 01:38:19 pm
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People will get bored of me saying 'in Madagascar' soon, but until that point, I was wondering what the good people of this parish carry with them on MP (day) routes?
It sounds daft but in Riglos I recently found a knife in a chimney (I'd been meaning to buy one for a while) which made it's way onto the back of my harness. When I was away I found myself needing to replace a LOT of worn cord/slings etc. in fact some of the belays were so congested that with the maillons left from various parties (all worryingly small) and cord (often it looked like the end of someone's rope i.e. fat), there wasn't room to get a biner directly in the bolt.
Likewise (maybe this is all getting a bit UKC), but how are people abbing? I've always considered extending the belay plate away from myself a little bit Euro (mine's usually on the belay loop with my prussik on my leg loop) but I'm acutely aware of the issues with my setup after a few debates with a Frenchman (i.e. lifting the leg accidentally).
Using the rope for the belay also nearly bit us once or twice as when the pitch said 60m they weren't kidding (there's nothing like your partner counting you down to "Off belay" before you've clipped the anchor). I was pretty pleased with my choice of 8mm ropes in the end. One was hard work to pull once (self-inflicted, I should've just replaced the tat rather than threading both bolts/maillons) and I was glad I hadn't risked the 7.5mm. I also took a fairly large fall after breaking a hold and wasn't overly upset by the amount of stretch/distance traveled.
Are people using the Petzl adjust as their tether? etc.
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I do not do a lot of multipitching or abbing but when I do:
- standard prussik setup as you've described.
- a small knife lives in the pocket of my chalkbag for situations like the one you describe.
- one mulitpitch in Ailefroide recently was enough to convince me that when I next plan to do some bolted multitpitching a connect adjust will be the first thing I buy!
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- one mulitpitch in Ailefroide recently was enough to convince me that when I next plan to do some bolted multitpitching a connect adjust will be the first thing I buy!
Bolters seem to vary the distance above the ledge/mildly-comfortable feature for fun in my experience.
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I usually take a couple of extendy (60cm slings trippled over) quickdraws and then if abbing will use this to extend belay plate for abbing, seems to work pretty well.
Also knife and a couple of prussics that sit on a screwgate. Prefer no bag if possible so the 2nd often has coats/water clipped to harness.
Not got one of those adjust things, I always like to be clipped into both bolts, is the idea you just clove hitch the rope into the other or just be cool and use 1 bolt? Tend to just use the rope and a few biners.
This is a very UKC thread
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This is a very UKC thread
Sorry it is but I'm becoming increasingly aware of my own mortality (and TBH with the whole :sick: :shit: I've had a fair amount of unplanned free time this past week).
No, they're conveniently linked with a chain (as that's always the case):
(https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000002dsvhAAA)
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I personally wouldn’t bother with the tether thing as it seems like an additional bit of kit. I would use the rope though have never come across the situation you described... not ideal but surely a single clovehitch to the belay won’t make that much difference!? (I usually do the whole equalise the bolts thing but if it was a rope stretcher I’d certainly be undoing these leaving just one)
I abb with a 120 sling larksfooted with a knot tied halfway. My belay plate goes in the first section and then I have a screwie on the end. As I get to an anchor I clip the screwie in and “hey, presto” I’m attached. Then when I leave the belay I clip the screwie into the rope I’m pulling (if on halves). Prussia goes on belay loop so you don’t go all wonky Abbing. Worth thinking about halfway knot position as if you are having to deviate your abseil due to steep rock or traversey abseils having the plate too high is a right PITA.
Sure you do this but once I’m down at a stance I start threading the rope that we are pulling into the anchor and as it pulls it gets pulled through here too. Minimising potentially for a) dropping the rope :sick: and b) forgetting which you are pulling.
I’d take a knife and tat in future.
In taghia we climbed on a single and tagged a small bag up on a skinny half. Which worked well and meant we had two full strength ropes for abbing (not that we did any). Would buy a minitraxion for this if I was going to do loads. Doubles up as useful for rescuing though be warned it has limitations. Can be easy to fuck yourself over with it and although you can get out of it it takes some rope knowledge and lateral thinking which you might not have in a rescue situation. Some cavers hauled an injured caver on one and they got stuck. They kept hauling and got the rope tight and couldn’t work out how to release him. He died. It’s actually quite simple to sort out once you have done it but not obvious.
As has been mentioned a few slingdraws and/or slings.
I quite like the overhand knot way of coiling ropes as it’s easy to swap over if swapping leads and is nice and neat. Nice to have a couple of big spare but light leans for this.
In taghia we also led with a guide plate and used that to belay the second then took the gri-gri off the second at the stance and they took the guide plate as they left.
Sure you have a few tricks up your sleeve too!
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... not ideal but surely a single clovehitch to the belay won’t make that much difference!? (I usually do the whole equalise the bolts thing but if it was a rope stretcher I’d certainly be undoing these leaving just one)
It wasn't like we'd been excessive in our use. Imagine a curving pitch with a 60m ab back to the belay. That. We had one ab that was denoted 61m which with brand new 60m ropes we ended up 5m or so (from the ground thankfully).
Sure you do this but once I’m down at a stance I start threading the rope that we are pulling into the anchor and as it pulls it gets pulled through here too. Minimising potentially for a) dropping the rope :sick: and b) forgetting which you are pulling.
We're lucky (or I am at least; when I get hungry I can be a bit of an ass so I'm not sure the feeling is mutual) in that we always climb together (i.e. same ropes, same kit) so we've taken to always starting with pulling the 'yellow' rope. It's pretty easy to figure out where you are later on when you inevitably forget (it's amazing how quickly this happens when tired).
I quite like the overhand knot way of coiling ropes as it’s easy to swap over if swapping leads and is nice and neat. Nice to have a couple of big spare but light leans for this.
It's a bit frustrating that usually the stuff we do has stuff Nat is technically competent to climb but as these tend to be the easier pitches, they're often far more run-out. The result is the lion's share of the leading still rests with me which means a lot of changing over.
Sure you have a few tricks up your sleeve too!
I'm not sure really. Mainly just not f*cking around on belays and not taking too much kit. Carrying sweets seems to have been a bit of a breakthrough in that we actually take the time to eat something instead of not doing (protein bars :sick:) all day and then having a blazing row 1p from the top/floor.
2:1 hauling for in the states (a bit outside the scope of this post) was perfect for me but took some learning (Micro-traxion was brilliant for this).
On one route recently it was necessary for the leader to either continue to the first bolt above the belay or for the second to stop below the belay as the 1st bolt of the next pitch was stupidly high (with non-trivial climbing).
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I have a small bag 99% of the time.
Essentially with some tat/slings, a couple of maillons, a pharmacy kit, emergency blanket.
really small trango knife and microtrax always on my harness. the micro is very useful with a struggling second...
if i choose a single rope+hauling line setup, i tend to use a microtrax for belaying the second as well. (petzl doesn't reccomend this as the micro is rated to 4 kN, basically you shouldn't have too much slack in the system in case the second falls)
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Re the fact that you do the lions share of the leading stacking the ropes up with knots as Nat seconds you will make change overs piss. (Wasn’t clear of you do this yet or not).
It’s kind of hard to explain but I’ll it a go. (Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.)
Take in rope as normal.
When you would normally loopier onto the other side of your belay loop/leg/foot/etc do an overhand with a big loop* and clip it to a krab on the belay (which you cleverly put there ready.)
Continue taking in slack. Repeating with the knots at appropriate intervals (if you know you are swapping you can make the loops bigger as you go or smaller if you are swinging)
Once you’re partner arrives get them happy at the stance.
Then take one of their special rope stacking krabs and clip it through all the loops you have clipped with your krab but with the gate the opposite way.
Now I clip your krab, spin theirs round and clip to the belay and “hey presto” the ropes will run nicely with you on top :2thumbsup:
*using a big loop means you can fit more into your krab without the knots all getting in each other’s way. Also if using doubles do one knot in both ropes and clip ONE loop.
Good drills always starting with same coloured rope but would still recommend threading the rope to be pulled as it basically means that once you have pulled the rope it is ready to abb on immediately. (Again sorry if you do this you were unclear if you did or not.)
Hope that made sense. I’m sure some actual Multipitch ninja will be along with some better tricks or to tell me mine are shit :)
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screwie
:sick: definitely a UKC thread now!
Overhand knots to avoid pulling the rope through at each belay a great idea. Can't believe ive never heard of this.
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i refuse to be shamed for my shortening of screwgate karabiners.
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Tether just seems like an extra bit of faff to be honest. If they were free I might try one though. Rope coil alternative sounds interesting, not sure when I will next get to try it though.
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i refuse to be shamed for my shortening of screwgate karabiners.
Scabs?
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The overhand rope coiling thing sounds kind of interesting but also kind of like extra faff for relatively little gain. I presume it's most useful on bolted belays when you have a convenient single point of attachment that's in a nice convenient place? And if you're having to stop to tie a knot every few metres then you must be using a guide plate or a GriGri? And then your partner is having to unclip and untie those knots as you progress?
It's fairly obvious but one of those ultra-light wind/shower proof pullovers is worth it's weight in gold. The ones that scrunch up into themselves to about the size of a wallet. Tagged onto the back of your harness, they weigh nothing but create a little cocoon of warmth around you at belays. Temperature has a big influence on psyche and getting scared for me. If I'm boiling my way up a pitch in a jumper then I'm going to get dry mouth and the fear will set in. If I have to freeze in a t-shirt on belays then psyche is going to evaporate.
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I carry a single edge razor blade duct-taped to the back of my helmet. I’ve used it twice in the last five years for hacking abseil slings and it’s perfectly fine for this. The duct tape itself can also be useful. I guess if you expected a lot of knackered tat to deal with you’d take a proper knife.
Extending the attachment point for the abseil device with a long sling as DC suggests is pretty much routine for me now. The only significant downside I’m aware of is the increased risk of long hair catching in the device. I’ve experimented with leashes and they simplify matters a little on multiple abseils or when leading in blocks on fixed anchors but I’m not sure a single-use tool like an Adjust is necessary unless you’re doing a huge amount of this. A Purcell prusik give a little adjustability and can be used as a long sling or chopped-up for abseil tat.
I’ve not heard of using a microtrax to belay. What’s the advantage over a guide plate?
Some US climbers advocate following the fixed lead line with a microtrax self-belay. This frees the leader to haul or whatever but is a pretty specialist application. https://www.climbing.com/skills/advanced-techniques-follow-on-toprope-solo/
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It's not that UKC as it's not mostly newbs passing on just-learned info like they're the experts.
Stuff I do:
It's fairly obvious but one of those ultra-light wind/shower proof pullovers is worth it's weight in gold.
Carrying sweets seems to have been a bit of a breakthrough
YES. Even at Gogarth. In mountains or winter keeping blood sugar up is the key to enjoyment. Also carry a gel or two (on tof of lunch) if the route is long enough to take a bag. Nominally for emergencies but can really cheer up the abs.
we've taken to always starting with pulling the 'yellow' rope.
Or 'Pull Pink' as we do it. Another benefit of this is it tends to wear one rope more (the not pink one) so you can stagger replacing one half every few years.
I've always considered extending the belay plate away from myself a little bit Euro (mine's usually on the belay loop with my prussik on my leg loop)
I also stick with the leg loop as it's always worked and I've never had issues with it, and knotting modern slings is not a habit I want to get into it (dyneema is very slippery which means knots create very tight radiuses which massively weaken them (>50%) and are hard to undo). Not sure about a bit euro I always had it down as a bit Plas-y-brenin.
On very long routes or with hanging (usually bolted) belays a tether is a good idea - more for the ab than the climb. A 60cm sling lark's footed into my belay loop has always done the job, but I'd consider a Petzl adjustable one for the Verdon or similar. I do use and rate the industrial versions at work. If you're swinging leads and not abbing multi-pitch a clove hitch in the lead line is just as good and less clutter.
Stacking ropes I either go for a pile on the ledge if there is one, or dangle big loops. All you have to do is ensure is each loop is smaller than the last and they shouldn't tangle. I did try the knot thing at one point then forgot about it. I might resort to it if the ropes were twisted up to eff by some mega ab. You don't have much else to do on the belay so minding the loops ain't a big deal ime.
The main thing about being quick is making changeovers efficient. So as a leader have the rack tidy and accessible when your second arrives. As a second re-rack the gear as you remove it. I also find this helps stop me slipping into sloppy second mentality where you climb like shit. As second you should have boots on, chalked up and half the belay out before your leader shouts safe.
Gear wise the DMM pivot has been the breakthrough of recent years for me. Handles skinnies as well as a fat ab rope, lots of control on either, finally solves the lowering second dilemma of the guideplate. Bit heavy but hey ho. Also has fat clip-in options so you can easily change on/off whilst keeping it attached.
Minitraxion is the emergency add-on, plus tibloc makes for a rope climbing kit and a hauling kit (plus revolver off extenda-draw), but also can rope-solo up ab or lead rope.
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i refuse to be shamed for my shortening of screwgate karabiners.
How do you feel about using quickdraws to build and equalise a belay Duncan?
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I’ve taken an interest in multipitch for the first time in years recently so this is an interesting thread.
I also stick with the leg loop as it's always worked and I've never had issues with it,
Glad to read of someone else who doesn’t extend their belay device- I’d never heard of such a practice ‘til I read this thread yesterday and it seems it’s just to stop your prusik getting caught in the device? Pretty sure that would have happened to me already if it was going to.
I’d need to see a video of that overhand knot method to understand it- sounds like madness to me (you’ve got to untie knots in the rope as you belay a leader?!) but there must be something I’m missing. A few weeks ago I was really proud of myself for coming up with a method where I looped the ropes through a carabiner attached to the belay but that pride dissipated rapidly as the crab became full of rope and jammed necessitating stopping on lead for five minutes shortly afterwards while my exasperated partner untangled it all- I imagine it’s a workable version of what I was trying to do then but I just can’t picture it.
Everyone’s talking about guide plates- are they really that good? I’ve always seen them as something that I can do without as I try to avoid situations where I lead multiple climbers up routes- what am I missing?
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Main benefit of a guide plate is you don't have to hold the rope, it's self-locking. Also means you can clip it into the belay direct whilst you do other stuff on the ledge. Really helpful with two seconds but useful with one too.
Both makes escaping the system easier, and it can be turned straight into a haul system, though this is largely theoretical for most.
Main drawback is the difficulty of overcoming the lock for lowering the second, which the pivot solves.
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Good drills always starting with same coloured rope but would still recommend threading the rope to be pulled as it basically means that once you have pulled the rope it is ready to abb on immediately.
Yeah we're on with this already. You also learn the hard way where the knot should and shouldn't be if you lower off any old ring bolts. I'll give the overhands a go at some point I guess, there's nothing lost.
I carry a single edge razor blade duct-taped to the back of my helmet.
https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/3/2017/10/peaky-blinders-c65205c.jpg?quality=90&resize=620,413
"A flight to Kalymnos was grounded today after a passenger was found with a razor blade taped to a helmet within his hand luggage..."
I once tried the Purcell Prussik and wasn't sold, it slipped when I leaned across the belay (for my sweets no doubt). This resulted in a monetary :shit:
Cheque - around 7:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qgygg8pzGI
Guide plates are amazing (Reverso 4 for me). You can basically be a bit slacker (it's also less tiring) when on the belay, eat, drink, sort out your mess of ropes etc. I recently climbed something fairly big in a three and obviously it made life a lot easier/quicker.
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Yeah worth trying the overhands out. I think they work really well for bolted Multipitch as like was said above you can keep the ropes out of your way.
The belayer has to undo the knots as the leader climbs but if I’m honest as long as you are on it it’s never seemed that much more faffy than sorting out the rope looped over you. You just unclip the loop then undo it and drop it.
Might work for you might not. I liked it in taghia and we were swinging leads
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When staking ropes: Tie half hitches instead of over hand knots, they fall out when you take them out of the krab, so no faff untieing. Also start with big loops and make them smaller and smaller. This prevents tangles.
The Petzl Knife chops through tat quicker, and is better for making butties, than the little Trango one. A DMM bugette is worth having clipped to the back of you harness too.
When doing multi-pitch raps I don't like tieing knots in the ends of my ropes, as they get stuck in stuff and you have to remember to untie them at each belay. Instead I clove hitch both ends to me and clip them to my harness. Good for absieling at busy UK crags too.
Little elastic shoe leashes are worth adding too... I have dropped two shoes relatively recently. Very annoying!
On a wet day chop an old set off halfs into 4m lengths and you've got several years of free abseil tat.
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I also stick with the leg loop as it's always worked and I've never had issues with it,
Glad to read of someone else who doesn’t extend their belay device- I’d never heard of such a practice ‘til I read this thread yesterday and it seems it’s just to stop your prusik getting caught in the device?
That, plus krab-against-buckle leverage if you have adjustable leg loops.
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Everything I do has already been mentioned, I think.
Like Johnny B I always carry sweets or, preferably, caffeinated sugar gels.
Not carrying a Petzl Adjust on a bolted multipitch would just seem bisarre to me. Some old-school affection maybe?
A few years ago I changed rapping system and now I extend the belay plate with a shoulder length sling, keeping the prussic on the belay loop. I found this much more comfortable than keeping the prussic on the leg loop, but I doubt that it can ever make a real difference.
I will never climb with a small pack on my back again, unless I'm clearly the strongest climber in a team of three doing an easy route. The leader climbs with a zip-line (a skinny half works well for a small pack imho). The micro traction is the most convenient way to haul a light pack, and useful for many other things, but I find that a tibloc on a biner work well most of the time. Like this, but with the tibloc oriented the correct way (and without the leg loop–surely no one is that weak):
https://www.climbing.com/skills/tech-tip-alpine-hauling-sense/
On most of the long routes I'm doing nowadays I'm leading on a single, in which case using a half rope for hauling ads a lot of safety. When leading on a single I do no longer accept being belayed by something else than a gri-gri*. When tied in to a belay the forces on the belayers hand is much higher for much longer than with single pitch climbing. I had a second almost drop me when they burned their hand from belaying me with an amish device taking a moderately sized fall (no more than 15m) on a skinny single. I climb with a grigri and a belay plate and a lightweight belay device (so three devices for two climbers) when climbing in a team of two.
Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
A Spanish mountain guide taught me the method described above stacking the ropes with knots in a large biner, and he claimed it was brilliant because the clients often let go with both hands when taking selfies on the belay and the knots create a back up. Other than that it sounds like a good method in general. Will try it next time maybe.
Since I got caught on the belay in a brutal thunderstorm with my ultra-light wind/shower proof pullover in the haulbag I always keep it on my harness.
I keep 10m of 6mm cord, two mid-size wires, and a tiny knife in the haulbag, hoping that this will get me down if I miss the rap line.
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* Maybe there are other devices as safe as the GriGri, but there is certainly none other that has stood the test of time. Except the HMS I suppose. (If it didn't tangle the rope so bad, I would be happy to let people belay me with the HMS).
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I should add that the multi pitch stuff I do is almost exclusively on vertical limestone. On low angle granite I wouldn't be as keen hauling, I'm sure.
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This thread makes me feel completely incompetent.
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This thread makes me feel completely incompetent.
I was thinking exactly the same, most of my multipitch experience is in UK (and a fair time ago) so possibly a lot of this is only moderately applicable but plenty is new to me :-[
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Me too! Quite happy just wondering where to put my bouldering pad.
And wondering if my fan has enough battery left 😱 😂
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... and carrying a lightweight ATC, or similar device, separately for abseiling.
Just ab on the gri-gri and do a pull-down?
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Speaking of that, has anyone here used the Petzl RAD Line or the Edelrid RAP Line II doing pull downs?
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I always use a sling to extend my belay device after twice getting my hair caught in it last year - after asking around, it seemed sensible. No issues when abseiling this year.
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I always use a sling to extend my belay device after twice getting my hair caught in it last year - after asking around, it seemed sensible. No issues when abseiling this year.
Can you explain how this works please? I would have thought that extending the belay plate away from your harness would put it closer to your head and so increase the risk of getting your hair caught.
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I always use a sling to extend my belay device after twice getting my hair caught in it last year - after asking around, it seemed sensible. No issues when abseiling this year.
Can you explain how this works please? I would have thought that extending the belay plate away from your harness would put it closer to your head and so increase the risk of getting your hair caught.
Unless he means extending it a very long way so its above head height? Either way it sounds somewhat dubious to me, unless I'm being unimaginative. Five minutes with a set of hair clippers on grade 3 would deal with the problem!
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Speaking of that, has anyone here used the Petzl RAD Line or the Edelrid RAP Line II doing pull downs?
Not specifically those, but we have used a 6mm pull cord. We did 4 or 5 raps down steep ice and it worked "ok" (faffy, slow and annoying), but mates tried to rap back to the Stollenloch from the waterfall pitch on the Eiger and it got so consistently tangled, and was so hard to pull if there was any friction, that they gave up and did 30m raps on their single.
I think they most suited to alpine abseils mainly on snow/ice and when you basically expect not to be abseiling, but need to in a bind. Also shit in a storm, but you're all talcking summer multipitch. If it were me I'd probably go with a skinny single & 7.5mm tag/abseil line as it could still get you out a pickle if your main line gets cut.
Other points:
As per most other comments, I think you're best using a skinny sling with a knot in the middle for abseiling. I've almost always used a guide plate for belaying seconds, but don't often climb on a single. If I was, the gri-gri sounds sensible. (did that a bit in the states). While abseiling I clip by "clip in" crab on the long bit of the sling to the strand of rope I want threaded through the next ab station (otherwise I often forget red or blue?).
I often keep a 500-750mm ish water bottle (gatorade are ideal!) with duct tape/cord attachment on the back of my harness in hotter climes so that I can get a drink in while belaying the seconds up. I think if I was using a tag/haul I'd maybe forgo that as you'll have the pack up in no time.
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Thanks for confirming my suspicions
If it were me I'd probably go with a skinny single & 7.5mm tag/abseil line as it could still get you out a pickle if your main line gets cut.
This is the system I've used for ten years, and for pitches up to around 30-40m it works very well — but on the very longest or hardest pitches I'd be keen to have a lighter tag line. I've seen that the pros usually forgo climbing with a haul line and just force a mate to follow with a pack with the extra rope in it... that's not an option for me.
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I fiddled about and extending the belay device with a 30cm sling lark’s-footed onto the belay loop seems ideal for me- extends it enough to be able to put the prusik on the belay loop without having to tie knots in big nylon slings or have the device miles away- (hair getting caught up is not a problem for me) I have a 30cm sling already for some reason so I’ll try it out.
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I always use a sling to extend my belay device after twice getting my hair caught in it last year - after asking around, it seemed sensible. No issues when abseiling this year.
Can you explain how this works please? I would have thought that extending the belay plate away from your harness would put it closer to your head and so increase the risk of getting your hair caught.
Sorry my post wasn't clear, I meant how does extending your belay plate away from your harness help to keep your hair from getting caught. Surely if it is extended then it is closer to your hair, but if it is direct into your harness then there's no chance I could get my hair caught unless I had some ribs surgically removed to improve my flexibility. I'm not contesting any of the other benefits (although the few times I've found the extra faff to outweigh any benefits personally).
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I fiddled about and extending the belay device with a 30cm sling lark’s-footed onto the belay loop seems ideal for me- extends it enough to be able to put the prusik on the belay loop without having to tie knots in big nylon slings or have the device miles away- (hair getting caught up is not a problem for me) I have a 30cm sling already for some reason so I’ll try it out.
Big hair = 60cm sling for me.
And yeah, put the prussic where you want after, although this summer it was still in my leg loop.
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Sorry my post wasn't clear, I meant how does extending your belay plate away from your harness help to keep your hair from getting caught. Surely if it is extended then it is closer to your hair, but if it is direct into your harness then there's no chance I could get my hair caught unless I had some ribs surgically removed to improve my flexibility. I'm not contesting any of the other benefits (although the few times I've found the extra faff to outweigh any benefits personally).
A 60cm sling takes the belay device well away from my head when I lean back - not sure how long your hair is but sitting here now, mine reaches my belly button easily with just a tilt of the head. It's also locked, so when it gets stuck in the device, it's stuck.
Daftly last summer, on an easy 40m abseil into a single pitch crag in the alps, I didn't use a prussic and but the device in my belay loop. One dread got caught in it but I was lucky enough to be near the ground and a friend could just reach the soles of my feet . There was enough pressure for me to be able to pull my hair out.
That's the last time I rappel without a prussic. Lesson learnt. Extending the device takes no time at all, just a larksfoot and I'm drama free.
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And there's me reading the title, and considering my offering of gaffa tape. To stick down slings and protect sharp edges. Stuck in strips on my helmet to keep it sticky.
Often forget prussiks.. Oops.
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One dread got caught in it but I was lucky enough to be near the ground and a friend could just reach the soles of my feet . There was enough pressure for me to be able to pull my hair out.
That's the last time I rappel without a prussic. Lesson learnt. Extending the device takes no time at all, just a larksfoot and I'm drama free.
A fair while ago now myself and a friend went out to climb Offspring on a bitterly cold day. At the end of the day he abbed off to get the gear back whilst I packed up at the top. I heard screaming so ran down to below the cioch where I found him with his head right next to the tuba, his hair entirely through the device. A few seconds later, it tore and he landed in a heap on the floor, leaving blood all over the device :sick:.
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Literally "bloody hell"!
Hopefully no long term damage to your mate's head. After it happened to me, I asked around my mates in Swizzy and it seems everyone had a tale to tell.
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Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
I revisit this thread as I was spoking to someone who was doing his rock climbing exams for guiding the other day. My interlocutor was claiming that this practice was now officially sanctioned as Petzl has made tests that shows it is safe.
I must say that I am still a bit sceptical so I went and looked on Petzls website where it doesn't get the most enthusiastic of endorsements
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
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Also, I have a question: when you rap several pitches in a row with a single rope + tag line (pull chord) setup down fixed rap-stations with narrow maillons, do you restack the single rope + retread the rap ring or do you untie and retie? What's your preference?
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I'd probably pull a bite of the single through if that was feasible?
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Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
I revisit this thread as I was spoking to someone who was doing his rock climbing exams for guiding the other day. My interlocutor was claiming that this practice was now officially sanctioned as Petzl has made tests that shows it is safe.
I must say that I am still a bit sceptical so I went and looked on Petzls website where it doesn't get the most enthusiastic of endorsements
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
Interesting. However, I thought most people who use Microtrax in multipitch scenarios were doing "fix and follow", where the second was climbing with the microtrax on their belay loop?
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I'd probably pull a bite of the single through if that was feasible?
I don't understand this but am intrigued?
Best set up I have found is:
- One person threads the tag line through the anchor as you're pulling the rope down as if you're using double ropes.
- Tie a bowline-on-a-bight (or fig 8 ) on the lead line and attach it to the anchor
- Someone abs down the lead line while the other person unties and reties the ends of the ropes
If your tag line is thin enough to pull a knot through the anchor, and if you join your ropes together with a small locker, you only have to untie and retie one knot.
Disadvantages, you're pulling down a carabiner each time which increases the risk of stuck ropes. I assume you're doing that anyway with the tag line set up though unless you're just relying on the knot being too big to go through the maillon, which I personally find a bit too scary.
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To avoid any tying/untying of the cord or the faff and friction of the captive biner, you could do it another way by using the pull-cord fixed from below on the next ab station, instead of using it fixed at the anchor you're abbing from.
This would rely on good comms and/or line of sight, and total trust in your partner to do it right though! I haven't tried this, have only done it the usual way using captive biner and re-tying.
You'd do the first ab with the pull-through cord rigged the usual way - cord on a closed loop to pull down the lead rope to next anchor.
As you're pulling down the rope, thread the next anchor with the pull-cord. Tie-off lead rope to anchor as iaCoops says (could use clove hitch if not confident with bowline on a bight - a fig8 on bight risks becoming hard to undo esp if twisted and on wet ropes).
First person abs down, once down they fix pull-cord to the next anchor using a biner and clove hitch a.n.other knot.
Second person removes the lead line clove-hitch/bowline and abbs down, with the lead line anchored from below on the ab station, a bit like on a top-rope.
This way there's no untying/re-tying of the cord and there's no captive loop with a biner. So there's no biner to get caught and you have much less friction, because there's two free-hanging lines.
Repeat process at each anchor, alternating from pulling/threading the lead line to pulling/threading the cord.
But do you really want to trust your mate to remember to anchor the cord on the anchor below you..?
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I don't understand this but am intrigued?
Pull your tag line and at the join you'll get a biner in your hand, unclip that, push a bite of the single through the maillon, re-clip and then resume pulling, via the single, through the maillon?
My main memory of tag lines is some poor bloke absolutely dripping wet through somewhere on the Grand Wall trying to untangle a tiny tag line/micro-traxion setup that was very glad of our half ropes and a quicker solution to reach the floor!
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Also, I have a question: when you rap several pitches in a row with a single rope + tag line (pull chord) setup down fixed rap-stations with narrow maillons, do you restack the single rope + retread the rap ring or do you untie and retie? What's your preference?
It depends....
In the Bugs, where there were many chunky rap rings, we could often pull the knot through (hence you could pre-thread the lead rope and save time.
Otherwise we've just ended up stacking and re-threading. The slight loss in time was made up with simplicity.
I think I can picture's Paul's method, seems pretty logical.
I'm still not actually convinced of the benefits of single+tag vs half ropes. The only place I'd consider it is on routes where:
1. The chances of rapping are low, (or the number of raps in minimal)
2. The weight difference is actually going to be critical to success
3. The raps are uncomplicated (not alpine ground).
We ended up having to prussic back up a stuck rope on the approach to the Malardiere last year as the tag & knot got snagged on some turf / grass/undergrowth. PITA.
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For me it would also require very uncomplicated climbing. My impression of most people using single + tag is that they are wedded to single rope systems and have never given doubles a chance. When I did The Grand for the first time, we invited someone along and then swung leads and simul-seconded on a standard pair of half ropes, swapping one knot on each belay. They were incredulous setting off that the whole thing was going to be one massive clusterfuck. Obvs it was fine.
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Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
I revisit this thread as I was spoking to someone who was doing his rock climbing exams for guiding the other day. My interlocutor was claiming that this practice was now officially sanctioned as Petzl has made tests that shows it is safe.
I must say that I am still a bit sceptical so I went and looked on Petzls website where it doesn't get the most enthusiastic of endorsements
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
Interesting. However, I thought most people who use Microtrax in multipitch scenarios were doing "fix and follow", where the second was climbing with the microtrax on their belay loop?
A friend working as a guide in Chamonix has belayed clients with micro traxion in place of reverso/hms for many years. It is a lot quicker to just smack a directional pulley in the belay and take in by pulling down rather than up. Apparently it is sanctioned by the French guiding organisation now, as I understand it. Obviously, if the second falls you have to build a 3-1 to haul them up as you can never pay out rope. You also have to switch to a normal belay device when the second gets close to the belay if the pitch ends with a traverse. The proponents claim that these inconveniences are a price worth paying.
@Fultonius & Johnny Brown
The only point of climbing with a thin tag-line is that it works as a haul line so you do not have to climb with a back pack. It is a lot harder to follow a vertical limestone pitch climbing with a light back pack than to lead the same pitch without. On complex steep terrain I climb with doubles + rad line, then the rappelling is easier of course.
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Just relaised I said Paul when I meant JB. Soz.
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A friend working as a guide in Chamonix has belayed clients with micro traxion in place of reverso/hms for many years.
Having heard many stories of various guiding practices around the world (and knowing some guides in Chamonix - Chris say hi etc. :wave: ) I wouldn't be at all surprised that it being a 3:1 system half pre-rigged would be one of the major selling points for them doing it this way, means they can get an the haul before the poor punter even has a chance to ponder how to do the move....
@Fultonius & Johnny Brown
The only point of climbing with a thin tag-line is that it works as a haul line so you do not have to climb with a back pack. It is a lot harder to follow a vertical limestone pitch climbing with a light back pack than to lead the same pitch without. On complex steep terrain I climb with doubles + rad line, then the rappelling is easier of course.
I'm slightly more bought into a radline or anything that can be abseiled on rather than a pure tag - for me I'd probably go 7mm or even 8mm in my ideal hauling setup - hauling any weight on a super skinny line is also just horrible. I'm not sure I've ever actually failed on a route because my ropes have been too heavy, but I did nearly fail on the top crack of Sunshine crack because I didn't have half ropes and the rope drag was chronic...
Either way... the most important thing is having a system you and your partner both a familiar with and don't hate... Most of the rope system failures I've experienced or know of from friends were trying out something new on a big route.
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The times I’ve used a tagline have been on long alpine routes in New Zealand where access was on foot via no-fly valleys, so involved a two day walk in to a hut then 24hrs on a route. So weight of gear being carried in was a consideration as all food etc for 4-5 days plus gear required. In that context a tag line made sense, for the routes being climbed.
But I agree that they’re normally more faff, especially on lower angles abseils, and don’t do many things much better than than a pair of modern skinny ropes.
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Another shout in favour of a skinny half rope as a tag line, unless shaving grams is really paramount.
It may end up mostly deployed to pull the bag up on a micro traxion while the second is climbing, but it's nice to have the option of switching to two ropes on certain pitches and having twice as much usable rope along in case of incident.
I can definitely see the temptation of belaying on a micro traxion, or even two if you have two seconds, conventional guide mode belaying on two single ropes can really do your shoulders in.
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I can definitely see the temptation of belaying on a micro traxion, or even two if you have two seconds, conventional guide mode belaying on two single ropes can really do your shoulders in.
One of these https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/kong-gigi-guide-plate-belay-device/_/R-p-X4309776 as a secondary device for belaying seconds works well
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Another shout in favour of a skinny half rope as a tag line, unless shaving grams is really paramount.
It may end up mostly deployed to pull the bag up on a micro traxion while the second is climbing, but it's nice to have the option of switching to two ropes on certain pitches and having twice as much usable rope along in case of incident.
I used this system on many routes for many years, but I am a convert to the rad line. The micro traxion often bite parts out of the sheet of a thin half rope, and it is a lot easier to haul on a static, especially if the bag get stuck under the lip of a roof or similar.
On long steep pitches weight matters a lot as well. Not only for me, but even more for my climbing partner who weighs in at just above 50 kg.
Speaking of, I am tempted by the Nano traxion, as it is even lighter than the Micro, and it doesn't have the stupid button that opens up the teeth. The drawback is the slightly smaller wheel, so a bit less efficient. Thoughts? (Other than that I appear to have more money than sense...)
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If you and your partner each gained, say, 5-10kg of bodyweight then the relative benefit of saving a few grams on belay devices would be less. :smartass:
Also petzl should produce a super light titanium grigri.
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Funny, I was just coming back on to ask the same question about the Nano Traxion. I'm tempted.
It's a fair point about the traxion teeth shredding the rope sheath, I haven't really noticed that happening but when I think about it, a rope that was used extensively for that purpose did have a disappointingly short life.
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Speaking of, I am tempted by the Nano traxion, as it is even lighter than the Micro, and it doesn't have the stupid button that opens up the teeth. The drawback is the slightly smaller wheel, so a bit less efficient. Thoughts? (Other than that I appear to have more money than sense...)
The rope soloing FB group has a method of disabling that button if you're so inclined. We used a local quarry to get fit for a trip with a fixed line and soloing on a micro-traxion that I was sending back down the rope as I topped out. The button got knocked a few times and engaged the cam which wasn't ideal; people have the opposite fear that it'll get knocked and disengage. The Edelrid Spoc uses a cable instead of the button and is preferred on that group for the same reason (the cost doesn't look much different to the Nano-Traxion though). I can't see the Nano being problematic for hauling a bag; I used the micro as a progress capture device on a 2:1 setup (where it isn't really doing any work) but later, when things were lighter in a 1:1 scenario / space hauling and it was fine/great.
Out of necessity in the Verdon one year we used a single and a skinny half as a haul/tag and I can remember it all feeling heavy. This was a few years ago now and I don't think my half was as skinny as they were now (although I settled for a slightly thicker pair when I replaced them semi-recently).
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The only point of climbing with a thin tag-line is that it works as a haul line so you do not have to climb with a back pack. It is a lot harder to follow a vertical limestone pitch climbing with a light back pack than to lead the same pitch without.
Ah that makes sense. I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy. I suppose the Vertigine on Brento counts?
I remember a long discussion with one of Petzl's tech guys back in 2000, in their test facility, where across the language barrier I was trying to explain my concerns that the prototype Reverso I'd been testing would not allow me to lower the second. Thankfully DMM solved the issue very elegantly with the Pivot. It is a lot heavier than the Reversino I did a lot of long routes with, but the modern ab control plus lowering is worth the weight. I doubt I'd use a Micro-trax unless with a very trustworthy partner on slabby/ easy ground.
I will order a Nano and report back. Petzl claim the same efficiency as the Micro - 91%.
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I suppose the Vertigine on Brento counts?
At least the second half ;)
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Slight aside, but several people have died in caves where they've been belayed up a wire ladder or some such using a micro trax, and have become stuck for whatever reason (exhaustion, or entanglement etc) then been unable to be lowered nor ascend.
(usually cold water is involved). The belayers should have had, but did not have the skills to unweight the mircro trax and swap over to a lowering device. :(
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Slight aside, but several people have died in caves where they've been belayed up a wire ladder or some such using a micro trax, and have become stuck for whatever reason (exhaustion, or entanglement etc) then been unable to be lowered nor ascend.
(usually cold water is involved). The belayers should have had, but did not have the skills to unweight the mircro trax and swap over to a lowering device. :(
Grim. I can imagine that even if you do know conventionally how to unweight the traxion, it could be hard to do if the person on the other end is pinned tight against a roof or something. If you couldn't hoist them enough to release the cam, you'd have little option but to bypass to another capture device on the live rope then cut the rope between the two, right? :-\
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Thankfully DMM solved the issue very elegantly with the Pivot.
Am I correct in that the Pivot works the same way as the Reverso (iv) for lowering, just with more modulation/control because of the pivot?
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you'd have little option but to bypass to another capture device on the live rope then cut the rope between the two, right? :-\
Yep, something like that, every situation will be different.. you remembered your knife right?!
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Am I correct in that the Pivot works the same way as the Reverso (iv) for lowering, just with more modulation/control because of the pivot?
Yeah. I find the reduction in effort required significant too though, which aids control further, plus it is (from memory intentionally) compatible with their nut key which gives a much longer control lever than a krab. Your second probably has that though.
I've very rarely used it in anger but years' experience teaching rescue has taught me the value of having flexible tools. The moment you land in the shit is not the time you want to be cobbling together some complex escape.
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Also petzl should produce a super light titanium grigri.
Oh yes, sign me up... (Alas, I suspect that the properties of high quality steel is what make them so good).
We know from experience that it is very hard to hold even a medium hard fall by a much heavier climber on a skinny single using a reverso when you are tied in to a belay and not free to be pulled up. I am more than a little bit sceptical about my climbing partner's ability to hold a big fall close to the belay on a single strand of a half rope.
There is apparently some new evidence that it is in practice very hard to hold falls on thin half ropes clipped into every other screw in ice climbing scenarios, unless using break assistance devices.
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Guessing you have tried a few devices? At least the modern ones are better?
One more reason not to fall off when ice climbing!
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Ropes: I climb on doubles unless we haul the bag, which we usually only do in multipitch "sport climbing mode", or if it is seriously hard and steep climbing. Else, the follower carries a small pack or we have a bit of drinks & food on the body/harness. I'm not a fan of radlines. If climbing on a single, I always use an older (thin) half rope as a tag line.
Device for belaying 2nd: never done that with a micro traxion, I personally wouldn't want to be belayed like that on anything that isn't simul-climbing terrain. A plate like linked to above is much more convenient than using an ATC in guide mode or (even worse) the Megajul. As a team, (when climbing with doubles), we usually carry 2 plates and one Megajul. Bit of added weight, but less faff/more efficient at the belays.
Device for belaying 1st: I don't feel safe if not belayed with an assisted device - neither when sport climbing, even less so on multipitches (where the leader can be out of sight, the belayer is often distracted by other tasks, rock fall, risk of hitting the belayer in a fall, ...). Hence we use a Grigri if in "sport climbing mode", resp. the Megajul in "onsight mode" or when climbing on doubles. The downside of an assisted device is that it's more difficult to give soft catches, especially from hanging belays... use the sensor hand an an appropriately long lanyard.
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I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy.
You must have been to Verdon??
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For most routes in Verdon, twins make perfect sense. There are not that many free routes that start at the bottom, and those are rarely more than just above 200 m long. On the longer routes I find it very convenient to haul if I think I would spend more than five hours on the route, otherwise I do not bother.
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I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy.
You must have been to Verdon??
Sadly not. I’ve done very few single pitch sport routes in Europe either, just the odd rest day on alpine trips. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever clipped a bolt on European limestone.
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You could easily spend a week in Verdon without clipping many bolts, except on the belays. Bottes-Surbottes, ULA, La Demande, Estamporanée, etc...
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In fact I don’t think I’ve ever clipped a bolt on European limestone.
Unprecedented in the modern game.
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There is apparently some new evidence that it is in practice very hard to hold falls on thin half ropes clipped into every other screw in ice climbing scenarios, unless using break assistance devices.
I can well believe this.
Two winters ago I was leading a mixed pitch in Adelboden in Switzerland. The route was traddy so we were climbing on 2 ropes - a skinny sport rope and a beal iceline 8.1mm (aka bungee cord). I had the ropes alternately clipped. Just as I reached the belay ledge my tools popped and I fell. There was a bolt about a metre below my feet. So it was a surprise when I went two-thirds down the length of the 20+m pitch. Icelines are the 'psychological protection only' of the rope world..
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:lol: I’ve climbed on almost nothing but Icelines, summer and winter, for nearly twenty years. Although I recently upgraded my winter ropes to Beal Gullys :'( still waiting for a chance to use them four years later.
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:lol: I’ve climbed on almost nothing but Icelines, summer and winter, for nearly twenty years.
Do you have some reassuring tales of falling on them and not going miles? I'm on the brink of buying a new pair of 8.0mm half/twins, which will probably mainly be used as halfs, which is skinnier than I've gone before, and I do fall off sometimes...
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I'd just scraped my way up one of the hardest winter pitches I'd lead, in spantiks, at 3300m on the Dru Couloir Direct. Past all the hard climbing and just moving out left to the belay on slightly shooogly hooks, one of my crampons skittered and I was off. I was around 2m above a sling but went 10-12m, pinballing off the sides of the couloir. We weren't on icelines, but maybe 8mm half's if my memory serves.
Fortunate just to have a few bruises, and very glad the next (crux) pitch was G's lead! I think that was all on stretch rather than any slippage. I don't like climbing on icelines, summer or winter. They just don't inspire enough confidence. I'm also 80kg so the weight penalty of a few gramms of rope vs the psychological penalty of fear of the skinny means I stick with thicker ropes....
That said, we had way too chunky a single rope for the bugs last year and damn that was hard work belaying on a reverso....
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When I was at uni, a friend of mine had been given some Rediculously skinny ice climbing ropes by his sponsor. He was using them for rock climbing and fell off a route at the grochan (I think quantum jump but not 100%) the one he had most of his kit on got caught in a crack and cut causing him to deck out! Luckily he wasn’t too high and was George Ullrich so was a lucky bastard and missed some massive flakes to land on some grass. Think he stopped using them after that…
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Between Ally and Duncan I think I may have been convinced to stick with my modus operandi of slightly heavier but more reassuring ropes :-\
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Do you have some reassuring tales of falling on them and not going miles?
Not really, but on the sort of terrain I use them I don't tend to fall off and neither do my partners. Switched to them for the Lotus Flower and haven't given it much thought since tbh. Plus I don't sport climb much so perhaps am less accustomed to a quick catch. But note both the stories above involve falls right at the end of the pitch; I certainly wouldn't be expecting a quick catch in those circumstances. I do choose my belay devices carefully, until the more recent devices came out with V-slots I always used thin rope specific devices like the Reversino or Bugette, to the extent of carrying two in case my partner was an ATC type. And let your partner know if you are sketching.
The benefit of reduced weight and particularly drag, coupled with intelligent use of extender slings with revolver biners, is a game changer especially when trying to lead long pitches fast. In the Bugs we did a lot of 'stretch pitches' where you swing leads on 60s but do a ~100m pitch with 40m of moving together, stopping only at really good ledges or when you run out of gear (shorter pitches for 5.10+ obvs). I guess a lot of people do it on stuff like the top section of Point 5, but not many seem to apply it to rock.
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Do you have some reassuring tales of falling on them and not going miles? I'm on the brink of buying a new pair of 8.0mm half/twins, which will probably mainly be used as halfs, which is skinnier than I've gone before, and I do fall off sometimes...
When we were in Madagascar pre-pandemic, I'd been attacked by a dog and needed Rabies treatment which wasn't straightforward. On one of the routes, the grass that grows out of the granite provided a perfect perch for some kind of falcon. To get there I'd gone through some atypically loose terrain but I didn't fancy another trip for medical treatment so lowered off. Pulling the ropes scared the bird so I quickly retied and took a more carefree approach to the pitch (I mean, the white bits had held me once hadn't they?). Of course I ripped a flake off and I went a LONG way. I was actually on one of the steepest pitches I'd climbed when I was there so it wasn't horrendous, down some of the lower angled, very rough slabs but I found it eye-opening. As a result I semi-recently settled on a pair of Mammut ~8mm half ropes rather than the skinnier 7.5mms I had previously.
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I’ve used Mammut Phoenix 8.1mms as my trad. ropes for a few years and taken a few falls on them. Stretchy but not stupidly so in my view. I think the current equivalent is the Alpine 8.0mm. Mammut mm always seem bigger than Beal mm though. The Alpine 8.0 has a “dynamic elongation” of 30% whereas it is 37% for Ice Lines.
I think the UIAA dynamic elongation test is an 80kg weight (a tooled-up Pete?) undergoing a 1.6 factor fall. Are half ropes tested in the same way JB? The maximum permitted is 40% so Ice Lines are approaching bungee status.
The Ice Lines have a 4.9kN impact force whereas its 9.2kN for the Alpines. This might make a difference if you’re falling onto the proverbial RP2 and have avoided hitting the ledge on rope stretch.
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I think the UIAA dynamic elongation test is an 80kg weight (a tooled-up Pete?) undergoing a 1.6 factor fall. Are half ropes tested in the same way JB?
Not that familiar with UIAA. EN 892 uses a 55kg mass. UIAA refers to 892 for the dynamic test apparatus but load seems to be 100kg, object is however 'Energy absorbed before rupture'; I can't find a reference to 'dynamic elongation'.
Personally I'd always go for low impact force vs low stretch. The corollary is obviously greater clearance required, but remember the force on the runner is (almost) doubled vs the published impact force. I.e. I'd rather deck on stretch than rip the piece.
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I think there are sweet spots with ropes between impact force and stretch (and to a lesser degree handling, weight per mete, resistance to cutting). I think the sweet spot changes depending what medium you're climbing and what the protection usually consists of. I think I remember when Icelines first came out, and all the ice-climbers thought it was great because of the low impact force on screws. Times have change a little bit though with more research and greater general knowledge of the holding strength of screws in good ice. Also the development of better screws. Not that I've ever considered a screw as being akin to a bolt.. but the fear of ripping screws in a fall (which should virtually never happen on pure ice anyway) is lessened compared to say 15-20 years ago. But yeah for ice, icelines make sense for the combination of a slightly dubious medium and very low likelihood of actually lead falling onto them. Countered by the long stretchy falls if you do, and the risk increasing of fucking your ankle the further you fall wearing crampons.
Move to mixed and the protection is often rock gear or bolts, with some ice screws too. Different sweet spot between stretch and impact force. Depending on rock quality obvs - shitty swiss limestone versus bomber granite.
For rock-climbing where there's a 'very slim' chance of falling, or on rock where there's a greater than very slim chance of falling AND the gear is marginal holding strength then I can see icelines might make sense. For rock where the chance of falling is anything greater than 'very slim' BUT the gear is better than marginal holding strength, icelines don't make sense to me due to their excessive stretch. The sweet spot imo is more like the Mammut rope Duncan linked to.
For sport climbing, Icelines obv make zero sense except I wonder if they could be a good way to minimise rope weight and drag on a very long endurance redpoint at the limit, by climbing on a single iceline... Bobbins told me he did Liquid Ambar on a single skinny double rope for this reason. Perhaps Ondra will use an iceline on his 1000m jumbo-mega-proj at Flatanger.
Just imo.
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I had a period of trad climbing on Icelines as for long pitches the weight saving was noticeable (less pumped = less likely to fall off). I was recently looking at the Petzl Rumba which is 8mm for the same reason. I’d never considered impact force and dynamic elongation.
If you’re worrying about that kind of detail my guess is you’re going to be operating well within your comfort zone and are unlikely to fall off? I’m not being dickish (I wear a helmet) but with trad/ice how much of the potential risk is really tied up in the stretchiness of your rope?! I suspect there are way more important factors.
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I’ve used Mammut Phoenix 8.1mms as my trad. ropes for a few years and taken a few falls on them. Stretchy but not stupidly so in my view.
I think that's the same decision I came to. Some Googling would suggest the previous choice (bought in Squamish as I'd wrecked its predecessor and was just about to do lots of walking with ropes) was a Twilight:
https://www.outside.co.uk/mammut-twilight-7-5mm-dry-half-twin-rope.html
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All interesting input, thanks.
The ropes I was considering (owing to availability of a good deal) are DMM Couloirs, which have an impact force of 6.6kN, so a bit less stretchy than icelines anyway.
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Bit late to the party but a few random thoughts:
Dynamic Elongation(Duncan)
UIAA 101 and EN-892 are very similar, with all the tests being the same with a few extra bits added by UIAA 101. Dynamic elongation is defined in EN-892 section 4.4 Dynamic Elongation, "Where tested in accordance with 5.6, the dynamic elongation shall not exceed 40% during the first drop of each sample". 5.6 is the Drop test for determination of peak force, dynamic elongation and number of drops, shown here on this nice UIAA pictogram:
(https://theuiaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/UIAA101-Dynamic-ropes-2-722x1024.jpg)
Dynamic elongation IS information that has to be supplied by the manufacturer, it is 37% for an iceline for reference.
Impact Force
Beal have ALWAYS had the lowest impact forces of any equivalent rope, the the extent that Michel Beal has had accusations leveled at him re his results. As yet, the secret to his magic sheath weave/application of fairy dust is unknown.
The bigger question is does the rope impact force matter? As petejh alluded to above, it depends! Petzl have actually done a load of good work on this to get some real world values for forces at the belayer, top piece and the climber.
A brief summary of what they found:
- Humans are a lot softer than a rigid mass - peak force at an anchor was 70% higher with a rigid falling mass than a person!
- Belay device makes more of a difference (Increase in forces) at higher fall factors* when comparing a grigri to a reverso.
- Rope drag makes a massive difference (and something MOST climbers forget/don't understand). The force on the climber remains constant but the more rope drag, the higher percentage of the force is felt at the top piece than the belayer - it reduces the length of rope that if absorbing the energy of the fall, effectively increasing "fall factor".
So would the rope impact force make a difference - yes
Would it matter for a 0.3 factor fall on a free running rope - no
Would it matter on a bigger fall on a winding route with moderate rope dag and the last piece being a rubbish rp...... I think so!
Now we've all decided that skinny halves with low impact forces are the way to go, we realise that only time ropes actually "fail" is when they are cut........ Now where's that Edelrid Protect catalogue?
*I hate "fall factor" but it seem to continue to be used and it gives most people an ideal of the severity of the fall so I have used it too, even if I can't forgive myself.
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Word. I was perhaps more easily influenced as a younger guy but working with Beal I was only too happy to drink the low impact force Kool-aid. Not been convinced otherwise yet.
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Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
I revisit this thread as I was speaking to someone who was doing his rock climbing exams for guiding the other day. My interlocutor was claiming that this practice was now officially sanctioned as Petzl has made tests that shows it is safe.
I must say that I am still a bit sceptical so I went and looked on Petzls website where it doesn't get the most enthusiastic of endorsements
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
OK, now I have some small experience of this. Holy moly. I don't care if the rope gets fuzzy. For long pitches with loads of drag it is just clearly superior to other belay techniques. As soon as my finances recover from the current chock of buying an apartment I'll buy a nano-traxion for the tag line and will use the micro to belay the second.
We just recently shared some belays with a French couple who were slightly weaker free climbers than us but kept on our heels all day on the fairly long route Baraka (685 m) in Gorge de Taghia thanks to faster systems. Like us, they were also climbing with doubles and had shoes, water and windbreaker clipped to the harness. He worked for PGHM and belayed his better half with two micro traxions: one on each rope. I was so jealous.
Obviously it's a pain if the second would like to be lowered to work a section, but it is not that hard to switch to a reverso if you have one installed on the master point already (for belaying pitches which ends with a traverse close to the belay)
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Belaying the second with a micro traxion is even more convenient than with a guide plate, but I think this should be left for low angle terrain where you never have to lower a second. This is a bad habit that has spread from lazy mountain guides in the alps to the general climbing population. IMHO, of course.
I revisit this thread as I was speaking to someone who was doing his rock climbing exams for guiding the other day. My interlocutor was claiming that this practice was now officially sanctioned as Petzl has made tests that shows it is safe.
I must say that I am still a bit sceptical so I went and looked on Petzls website where it doesn't get the most enthusiastic of endorsements
https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
OK, now I have some small experience of this. Holy moly. I don't care if the rope gets fuzzy. For long pitches with loads of drag it is just clearly superior to other belay techniques. As soon as my finances recover from the current chock of buying an apartment I'll buy a nano-traxion for the tag line and will use the micro to belay the second.
We just recently shared some belays with a French couple who were slightly weaker free climbers than us but kept on our heels all day on the fairly long route Baraka (685 m) in Gorge de Taghia thanks to faster systems. Like us, they were also climbing with doubles and had shoes, water and windbreaker clipped to the harness. He worked for PGHM and belayed his better half with two micro traxions: one on each rope. I was so jealous.
Obviously it's a pain if the second would like to be lowered to work a section, but it is not that hard to switch to a reverso if you have one installed on the master point already (for belaying pitches which ends with a traverse close to the belay)
Thanks for this. I'd be interested to give it try, single rope version first probably.
I thought you were a convert to single ropes for this kind of route? Horses for courses I guess.
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I thought you were a convert to single ropes for this kind of route? Horses for courses I guess.
Yeah, the latter part of Baraka (10 pitches) is a mountain route. It weaves up a prow, always finding the easiest or most protected part. For this stuff doubles make sense. I had to admit that I just ran it out and clipped them as twins.... :D