UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Bolter on June 20, 2011, 12:39:43 pm
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I have the flake sitting at home in the garden. What do you reckon - should it be glued on again or left to be climbed again by someone else?
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Hi Bolter :wave:
What do you think?
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Gluing it back on would mean the person doing the work would be responsible for the soundness of the gear placements behind the replaced hold. Huge responsibility and ethical can of worms! If anyone did put it back on they’d be well advised to back it up with concealed glued in threadbars, i.e. bolts on grit, i.e. even bigger tin of nematodes!
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someone needs to take a sledgehammer to it to stop all the talk of gluing it back on.
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One of the great things about climbing is that the challenges are always there and don't change (i.e. compared to say surfing)so you have common experiences that you can share, work towards and aspire to. Partheon is an iconic route. It is a diffrent route without the flake. If an existing route loses a hold it is common practice to glue it back on. I can't see an ethical difference just because it is bigger feature than normal and holds gear than other glueing jobs.
Ignoring the practicalities for a second (of which there are many) if it can be reinstated and someone like Seb is up for doing it then I think it's a :goodidea:
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Having never been to Burbage, so maybe not best placed to discuss this, but, surely one of the "iconic" parts of the route was the "shipwreak of a flake"?
While I agree that a broken hold subtely fixed back on is often the best solution, surely in this case it's always going to be different from the orignal. I.e. if it's fixed back on in such a fashion that's it's not going to kill the first re-ascentionist, it's probably going to be much more solid that the original?
Hmmm..who knows...
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You'd have to be mad to even entertain glueing it back on. The route is already changed, deal with it. As gary barlow said, everything changes, he understood entropy.
Either you replace it bombproof and you have a safer route on your hands, or you glue it less rigourously and eventually you will kill someone. Its a lose-lose situation.
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What Dave said.
Its busted at last - and thats the way it is. If you were going to glue it back and make it bomber, why not just glue it back on, fill in the gear placements and place a bolt next to it?
Lets just leave it, and let some talented loon do it in its new state at a spicy E10.
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As gary barlow said, everything changes, he understood entropy.
That's Genius ;)
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As gary barlow said, everything changes, he understood entropy.
That's Genius ;)
:agree:
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The problem with leaving the flake off is that an absolute classic route will cease to exist. It is the grit equivalent of Indian Face.
With the flake glued back on it can still be climbed, but will be more like a solo or a lead with bad gear which is how John Dunne originally climbed it.
I.e. He didn't believe the gear would hold.
I thought it would hold and it did but I took the precaution of placing 3 sets of gear - 1 at the top 1 in the middle and 1 at the bottom. All pieces of gear could hold body weight. All sets were in different places since I figured if the flake broke it would not do so along it's whole length and would leave something to arrest my fall.
Since it is quite a big hold and you previously relied on it for a hand hold and foot hold and the moves from it would be very big it would be important that it is glued on well. This is possible, just look at the starting block on Mecca - it fell apart but was reconstructed.
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Sticking it back on sounds messy in every way. However it is a shame to lose such a classic hold - perhaps it could have a second innings as a replacement chockstone on Right Eliminate.
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totally agree what his been said regarding someone falling off onto the flake after it being glued and the flake ripping off and death being involved.i personally would rather it be consigned to the history books as a once classic possible route than be infected as a modified route.oh,and theres a big difference to glueing a small crimpy hand hold than gluing the routes protection,you may aswell just bolt it and have done.
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I don't think you can compare this to the starting block on Mecca
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Do a painting of a shipwreck on it.
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Could we use Lego?
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I'd leave it off.
Leaving aside liability issues(both legal and more importantly the personal one of 'did I glue it on properly?') when it fails again to me it it feels like cheating and somewhat backward looking. On trad routes, of whatever grade, one of the major attractions is dealing with things as one finds them. This includes failed gear placements and crumbling holds; an acceptance of the inevitability and chaos of change. If this flake was on off a route other than the truly iconic Partheon Shot would the question of replacement even be aired? Or would we be wondering who is going to come along to sail past that sunken shipwreck of a flake to the calm waters of the finishing slab? Because someone will.
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I agree the legal implications of the flake ripping after gluing are massive and alone a reason for not doing it, never mind the stuff about gluing grit. I don't think there is any precedent for a trad gear placement being 're-created' on any other trad route?? I can't think of any anyway. I would imagine the gluer would not be able to sleep at night worrying about someone decking and the repair job failing. Also, its no bolts on grit isn't it so the route will be destined to become a toprope problem like on southern sandstone.
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Leave it off. I guarantee some kid will come along and lead or even solo it.
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some good points there. unlike limestone, we don't at present glue shit back on grit willy nilly, particularly not routes. and when things are glued back on boulder problems its far from uncontentious.
From what I have heard (and I speak from the comfort of my armchair having never been on it and never likely to be) there still is a bit of gear in the lower remaining bit of flake, and probably enough holds left to be climbable at a higher grade, albeit broken and sandy at present. If this is the case then I recon the thing to be done is put some stabilising shit on the busted up rock to make it holdable and leave it for the next generation. Could turn out to be a classic E10/11 frightener. Parthian for the next generation.
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Present it to Seb and move on.
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some good points there. unlike limestone, we don't at present glue shit back on grit willy nilly, particularly not routes. and when things are glued back on boulder problems its far from uncontentious.
~ probably enough holds left to be climbable at a higher grade, ~ leave it for the next generation. Could turn out to be a classic E10/11 frightener. Parthian for the next generation.
:agree:
When I used to bunk off, sorry, finish school early and go out on South Yorkshire's cheap buses for an evening's soloing Partheon Shot, Equilibrium, Captain Invincible, Braille Trail all were deemed unclimbable. Things change. Someone is in for an awesome adventure. Soon I think.
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Do a painting of a shipwreck on it.
Brilliant.
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Leave it be; it'll still be there to climb.
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Present it to Seb and move on.
Seb already has it. He just needs a little help to decide what to do with it. I think the majority vote on here is not to glue it back on though. The mantlepiece is a much better place for this particular piece of history.
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for an evening's soloing Partheon Shot, Equilibrium, Captain Invincible, Braille Trail
For a second I was like :o
and the I read the next three words.
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I agree the legal implications of the flake ripping after gluing are massive and alone a reason for not doing it, never mind the stuff about gluing grit.
More than placing a bolt or a peg on a limestone cliff Kingy? If it were me who glued it back on knowing that it could be terminal for it to fail in a fall I'd become a very anxious sleeper.
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Modern bolts don't rip out if they are placed correctly in good rock and are not too old. With pegs, I think its accepted that if you clip it, you accept the risk of it failing and therefore there is not perceived to be any comeback on the placer of the peg even if its not a great placement, although I guess this issue has probably not come up too many times, if at all. I suppose the same logic would apply to a glued trad placement although the crucial difference would be that you couldn't necessarily tell from inspection whether it was natural or glued. With a peg, its obvious that its a certain type of protection that u make a judgement call to rely on.
I guess its not clear cut though, it was only a thought. I agree that I would rather not glue the thing back on personally.
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Fair comment. Not something I'd want to take responsibility for either.
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:agree: i meant agree with Andy.. thread so hot I lost my slot on the :agree:
post a pic up... did it all come off??
way way back in the day I TRed PS over a few days... after the Johnny vid, before it was done.
I could do all the moves eventually,... I'm 5ft 7 and was jumping full on to latch the flake. No way I could lead it, the top rock over felt waaaay hard... me scared... me gave up. I thought the flake would snap with a fall and gear behind it. I knew I'd fall onto it.
This was decades ago, so no doubt people lock into the flake these days, or did. That leap onto the flake was IIRC one of the most awesome moves ever... ( and the vid of Seb still utterly amazing) if now that's now the default move and there's no gear left it's gonna be even more of an iconic route seen from all the lower aspect of the valley!
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Definitely leave it as it is. The reasons have already been said by others. I think its funny how PS was compared to Indian Face as a means to justify a repair. Well now they are even more alike in that a flake holding crucial gear has been ripped off and not replaced.
This whole affair can be a lesson to all in the inherently dangerous and often unpredictable nature of climbing. I seem to remember being puntered a while ago for suggesting that PS may not be a totally safe route...
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Do a "Si Jones Stag Do" with it on whoever is getting wed next.
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Present it to Seb and move on.
Seb already has it. He just needs a little help to decide what to do with it. I think the majority vote on here is not to glue it back on though. The mantlepiece is a much better place for this particular piece of history.
Its in good hands and I totaly agree, Sebs mantlepiece is a good resting place for the shipwreck of a flake... Amen
Im suprised it lasted this long
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Personally I think it should be given to Dunney.
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:agree:
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Do a "Si Jones Stag Do" with it on whoever is getting wed next.
but wouldn't that mean putting a bolt in it Graham? :shrug:
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That is correct
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:o ....... :punk:
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Personally I think it should be given to Dunney.
Get it mounted on a plaque and put it up for charity auction. John and Seb can bid for it.
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Or both glued on to the outside of RE which would surely make it more fun.
I quite like the idea of fixing the Parthian flake properly with threaded rods :shrug:
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Personally I think it should be given to Dunney.
:agree:
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deffo go to Dunney.
I would get it to Antiques Roadshow to get the value appraised though.
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How did it come off anyway?
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Someone was using it to tension a slackline across the valley...
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Someone was using it to tension a slackline across the valley...
:lol:
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stick it on at the works or we could create a lime/grit cocktail in parisellas
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Personally I think it should be given to Dunney.
:agree:
:agree:
I think gluing it back on is fraught with potential problems.
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Someone was using it to tension a slackline across the valley...
Genius :lol:
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Someone was using it to tension a slackline across the valley...
:2thumbsup:
i heard it was the anchor for the proposed zip line across the valley?
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I have now solved the probelm by crushing it with a lump hammer. Having just snorted a line and done a few laps on my cellar boards I can vouch for it's potency so have decided to sell it off - a gram at a time - http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18037.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18037.0.html)
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If you have, that's an awesome way of ending the discussion! :jab:
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I have now solved the probelm by crushing it with a lump hammer. Having just snorted a line and done a few laps on my cellar boards I can vouch for it's potency so have decided to sell it off - a gram at a time - http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18037.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18037.0.html)
Can you bring some down The Works, we will mix it with some paint and put it on some of our volumes ;D
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i was going to suggest that the flake could have done a lecture tour of the uk and a book ghost written by Grimer. Failing that, you could have rented the hold out to prospective ascentionists, the parthian hold pimp.
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Gritstone phallus AND Mecca grease!
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i was going to suggest that the flake could have done a lecture tour of the uk and a book ghost written by Grimer. Failing that, you could have rented the hold out to prospective ascentionists, the parthian hold pimp.
And perhaps a guest appearance in Dosage 6, to help promote the book of course.
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Someone was using it to tension a slackline across the valley...
Is noone going to say how it came off?
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Interesting this. The photo of the (now gone) flake on UKC makes it look a bit of a mess and the majority of folk on here seem to be of the opinion that it shouldn't go back on. I'm not so sure yet as the majority of comments assume the hold needs to have gear put behind it again? I like fatdoc have done PS on a top-rope before its 2nd ascent and really enjoyed the climbing. It'd be a shame if people don't get the opportunity to experience this anymore. If it's going to be climbed again then it'd probably need some stabilisation as it was a foothold as well as a handhold. I have no doubt someone could do it without the hold but why? Glueing can be very well done nowadays if the right people are involved and as such I'd consider accepting that the top protection placement has now gone and yet glue the hold back to re-establish the hold sequence and original flow of the climb. It'd be stronger to fill that top nut placement so it can't be used again and would give an opportunity to keep a 'heritage climb' intact although obviously far bolder with the remaining death gear in the lower flake placements. I imagine once repaired it'd take a modern day Dunne to climb it again.
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As gary barlow said, everything changes, he understood entropy.
That's Genius ;)
Actually, no he wasn't, he was a flawed romantic because he immediately followed his statement of fact with an exception about some chick.
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I have quite a lot of 'space'dust now - see pic of flake before crushing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64434668@N08/5860024221/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64434668@N08/5860024221/#)
:boohoo:
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As gary barlow said, everything changes, he understood entropy.
That's Genius ;)
Actually, no he wasn't, he was a flawed romantic because he immediately followed his statement of fact with an exception about some chick.
Was her name Shannon?
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I have quite a lot of 'space'dust now - see pic of flake before crushing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64434668@N08/5860024221/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64434668@N08/5860024221/#)
:boohoo:
its like the most important piece of soft pr0n for gritstone climbers!
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its like the most important piece of soft pr0n for gritstone climbers!
I had a great plan for more high-brow pr0n.....
I have now solved the probelm by crushing it with a lump hammer.
bugger
I was just writing my application for a grant from The Performing Arts Council.
I was proposing a docu-opera featuring the flake in different circumstances - all explained with appropriate operatic performance.
Dunney would appear first as an Arthurian hero pulling the stone from a pile of guidebooks and using it to slay his climbing contemporaries and critics.
Dawes is seen to be romantically involved with the flake from before the triumph of King Dunne. It is also revealed that Dawes' unusual relationship with the flake has become widely known among the people of the kingdom; and whilst they don't quite understand the nature of this possibly perverse relationship, the people somehow see Dawes' involvement as more loving than King Dunne's slightly exploitative stance. (Dawes is to portrayed as a bit of a mix of Lancelot and Albrecht The Dwarf).
King Dunne finds himself staggering across the road from The Broadfield in the pissing rain with the albatross flake hanging from a rope around his neck. He throws the flake to the floor only to find a crowd of villagers throwing smaller flakes at him. Foto the elf tries to protect the king, but the king has had enough - he uses one of the stoning missiles to cut off his own tongue and another two to block his ears.
Dawes asks the flake if it fancies a threesome with some piece of slate that he has just met.
Time passes and the kingdom moves on. It does in fact become a republic.
An elegant man strides onto the stage. Although he is a citizen of the republic, he has the air and grace of a man noble-born. The hint of royalty is exaggerated by the presence of an Irish word-smith; who subtly allows the audience to see him as both a court jester and modern day journalist.
This out-of-his-time knight is labelled Sir Seb by the expensive laser display.
Sir Seb proceeds to try and seduce the flake with his frequent caresses and heartfelt words. (romantic lighting, music etc)
The sight of Dawes in the background leaves the audience wondering whether Sir Seb can tempt Princess Flake away from the dark, satanic and obviously sexually fulfilling situation that she has been in for some time.
The word-smith starts his song as Sir Seb ties a rope to himself in an attempt to show the princess his dark side.
The brave knight commits himself to the full S&M experience without even establishing a safety word.
He is out of his depth.
She is in full control.
He can't satisfy her.
Because he is the best company she has had in years, she let's him have another chance.
The word-smith explains to the audience that a good relationship is built on more than just physical interaction. The people of the republic go to the bar for more drinks
Although the knight and the princess have both had a good time, they don't stay together. He goes off to slay dragons and she stays where she is... for a while...
There are a few more scenes where the princess gets some instant satisfaction.
In the end the princess sacrifices herself for the sake of a visiting explorer from The New World, but there's no point writing any more because some twunt has powdered the main star.
oh well
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:clap2:
Lagers, you are truly a literary colussus, stood heroically in the clouds far above ordinary men. From the ground, all we mere mortals can see of you is your knackers and what appears to be a 1/10th scale replica of a penis.
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there is no way that was written unless under the influence of some heavy shit.
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there is no way that was written unless under the influence of some heavy shit.
All copied and pasted from a spam email he received trying to get his bank details...
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there is no way that was written unless under the influence of some heavy shit.
That ShotFlakeDust is good stuff.
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there is no way that was written unless under the influence of some heavy shit.
if only I had some heavy shit on which to blame this babble
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Just baby induced sleep deprivation then...
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Interesting this. The photo of the (now gone) flake on UKC makes it look a bit of a mess and the majority of folk on here seem to be of the opinion that it shouldn't go back on. I'm not so sure yet as the majority of comments assume the hold needs to have gear put behind it again? I like fatdoc have done PS on a top-rope before its 2nd ascent and really enjoyed the climbing. It'd be a shame if people don't get the opportunity to experience this anymore. If it's going to be climbed again then it'd probably need some stabilisation as it was a foothold as well as a handhold. I have no doubt someone could do it without the hold but why? Glueing can be very well done nowadays if the right people are involved and as such I'd consider accepting that the top protection placement has now gone and yet glue the hold back to re-establish the hold sequence and original flow of the climb. It'd be stronger to fill that top nut placement so it can't be used again and would give an opportunity to keep a 'heritage climb' intact although obviously far bolder with the remaining death gear in the lower flake placements. I imagine once repaired it'd take a modern day Dunne to climb it again.
:agree:
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i was going to suggest that the flake could have done a lecture tour of the uk and a book ghost written by Grimer.
I've started on the flake's autobiography. It's called Dunne and Dusted.