UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: shark on April 30, 2020, 01:41:03 pm
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I've had a press release from Rich Emerson of the ABC which sets out where they are up to with respect to planning for re-opening climbing walls:
‘A message from the Association of British Climbing Walls’
The Association of British Climbing Walls (the trade body representing 180 walls in the UK) is leading
an initiative to develop a set of guidelines to get walls open again safely. Working very closely
through the Outdoor Industries Association (OIA) and with UK Active (the Trade Association for the
fitness and health sector), the ABC is conducting research in order to provide a solid foundation for
the recommendations that will follow.
The ABC has 5 working groups looking at different elements of a strategy for reopening, all
consisting of a mix of climbing wall operators, individuals with expertise and partner organisations.
The teams are being coordinated by ABC Chairman, Rich Emerson who commented that: “We will ultimately provide guidelines for safe opening and operational procedures to our members and other climbing walls. Our guidelines will be based on those that are imposed on the fitness sector and have been agreed with Public Health and the Governments across the UK.
Indoor climbing is about our communities, our customers, employees, suppliers and friends. Many of us know each other personally and it is this sense that makes climbing walls so special to everyone. In the week beginning March 17th, when we all closed our doors, these communities had their focal points removed and the walls went into damage limitation mode.
With government support we’ve worked hard to stabilise the situation and, over the past few weeks have started to look at how we can reopen in a way that is safe for our customers and staff.
We know that our customers want us back as much as we want to be back.
We’ve had some amazing support from our customers and suppliers: Kind words, people continuing to pay their membership others making gifts and buying products from us. These acts have made a huge difference to us all, way beyond their material value.”
The reopening strategy will be based on three elements:
● Hygiene measures - for both staff and customers
● Capacity Management - the guidelines we are working on with UK Active mean that it’s very
likely that customer numbers will have to be limited
● Social Distancing - everyone has become accustomed to the 2m rule - this will be no
different in a climbing wall environment
Alongside the work with UK Active, there is also close cooperation with the Outdoor Industries
Association, British Mountaineering Council, Mountain Training and the ABC Training Trust. Furthermore, an international group of climbing wall bodies has been set up to share procedures
and learning from different countries.
The group met on April 27 th 2020 with representatives from the CWA, IFSC, ABC, DAV, CEC, FASI, and several leading national federations held a meeting to discuss creating an international working
group to facilitate the sharing of hygiene, social distancing, and operational guidance. These
organisations have their own internal task forces working towards developing best practices for their
respective localities, however by coordinating information and advice the international indoor
climbing industry can deliver stronger and more defensible arguments to local authorities. This work
group will meet weekly for an indefinite period of time as each organisation works to deliver
information in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
They agreed to release the following statement:
If there is one word that defines the indoor climbing industry above all others it is community. Many
other sports and businesses use this word but very few see it manifest in their everyday interactions
with peers, customers, and employees at the same level that we enjoy. The COVID-19 pandemic has
impacted every climbing gym, every owner, every competition, and every climber. What everyone
wants to know is: When and how can I get back into my gym? In order to help provide guidance that
will make climbers, parents, and employees feel as comfortable as possible several of the world’s
climbing organizations have joined together to share information internationally.
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Update:
On Tuesday May 5th, the International Climbing Leadership Working Group held a video conference to discuss the state of the indoor climbing industry as countries begin to explore reopening procedures and timelines.
The group discussed status updates in their respective countries, areas of possible international cooperation, the ways in which each group influences their local and national governments, and public communication about the indoor climbing industry’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
The group agreed that there is no current scientific evidence that supports the need to sanitize climbing holds between use or daily to reduce risk when good personal hygiene is practiced. A similar conclusion is evident in the recommendations of the leading health organizations of the world that place contact transmission behind droplet and respiratory transmission and that recommend hygiene measures as an effective strategy for mitigation.
Furthermore, the sanitization of climbing holds between use or daily is commercially impracticable. Very similarly other businesses, such as retail stores, are not being advised to sanitize individual items or all customer facing equipment.
It was also agreed that it is unlikely that additional environmental controls are needed in mechanical or HVAC devises. Hospitals, public health authorities, and experts in air pollution control are not advising that ventilation systems be turned off as the risk in restaurants, retail businesses, and offices are estimated to be very low.
This group will continue to meet weekly and is actively discussing all ongoing developments and attempting to forecast and create strategies for other possible questions and issues that are not currently covered by existing guidance.
The amount of international collaboration and the swift responsiveness of our community is truly impressive. As many gyms in the world open up over the next several months we will no doubt continue to see business leaders around the world rush to support each other and get the indoor climbing industry back towards the growth and success that we have enjoyed for many years.
Rich Emerson
Chair Association of British Climbing Walls
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My friend's boulder gym in Switzerland now has permission to open.
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My friend's boulder gym in Switzerland now has permission to open.
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BMC Statement on reopening now live on Facebook.
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Hospitals, public health authorities, and experts in air pollution control are not advising that ventilation systems be turned off as the risk in restaurants, retail businesses, and offices are estimated to be very low.
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Rich Emerson
Chair Association of British Climbing Walls
Only just noticed this. I wish any climbing wall business well. But the statement from the ABC about air circulation in restaurants, offices etc. being 'very low risk', seems to be at odds with some other well-informed people's interpretation of the evidence.
Restaurants: Some really great shoe-leather epidemiology demonstrated clearly the effect of a single asymptomatic carrier in a restaurant environment. The infected person (A1) sat at a table and had dinner with 9 friends. Dinner took about 1 to 1.5 hours. During this meal, the asymptomatic carrier released low-levels of virus into the air from their breathing. Airflow (from the restaurant's various airflow vents) was from right to left. Approximately 50% of the people at the infected person's table became sick over the next 7 days. 75% of the people on the adjacent downwind table became infected. And even 2 of the 7 people on the upwind table were infected
Workplaces: Another great example is the outbreak in a call center (see below). A single infected employee came to work on the 11th floor of a building. That floor had 216 employees. Over the period of a week, 94 of those people became infected (43.5%: the blue chairs). 92 of those 94 people became sick (only 2 remained asymptomatic). Notice how one side of the office is primarily infected, while there are very few people infected on the other side. While exact number of people infected by respiratory droplets / respiratory exposure versus fomite transmission (door handles, shared water coolers, elevator buttons etc.) is unknown. It serves to highlight that being in an enclosed space, sharing the same air for a prolonged period increases your chances of exposure and infection. Another 3 people on other floors of the building were infected, but the authors were not able to trace the infection to the primary cluster on the 11th floor. Interestingly, even though there were considerable interaction between workers on different floors of the building in elevators and the lobby, the outbreak was mostly limited to a single floor (ref). This highlights the importance of exposure and time in the spreading of SARS-CoV2.
Indoor spaces, with limited air exchange or recycled air and lots of people, are concerning from a transmission standpoint. We know that 60 people in a volleyball court-sized room (choir) results in massive infections. Same situation with the restaurant and the call center. Social distancing guidelines don't hold in indoor spaces where you spend a lot of time, as people on the opposite side of the room were infected.
The principle is viral exposure over an extended period of time. In all these cases, people were exposed to the virus in the air for a prolonged period (hours). Even if they were 50 feet away (choir or call center), even a low dose of the virus in the air reaching them, over a sustained period, was enough to cause infection and in some cases, death.
Social distancing rules are really to protect you with brief exposures or outdoor exposures. In these situations there is not enough time to achieve the infectious viral load when you are standing 6 feet apart or where wind and the infinite outdoor space for viral dilution reduces viral load. The effects of sunlight, heat, and humidity on viral survival, all serve to minimize the risk to everyone when outside.
When assessing the risk of infection (via respiration) at the grocery store or mall, you need to consider the volume of the air space (very large), the number of people (restricted), how long people are spending in the store (workers - all day; customers - an hour). Taken together, for a person shopping: the low density, high air volume of the store, along with the restricted time you spend in the store, means that the opportunity to receive an infectious dose is low. But, for the store worker, the extended time they spend in the store provides a greater opportunity to receive the infectious dose and therefore the job becomes more risky.
Basically, as the work closures are loosened, and we start to venture out more, possibly even resuming in-office activities, you need to look at your environment and make judgements. How many people are here, how much airflow is there around me, and how long will I be in this environment. If you are in an open floorplan office, you really need to critically assess the risk (volume, people, and airflow). If you are in a job that requires face-to-face talking or even worse, yelling, you need to assess the risk.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
Based on the contact tracing info above I can't understand how indoor walls can be said to be a low risk environment. Not that this will stop me going indoors this winter if the walls are open. But the risks should be made clear and not over or underplayed. If I was older or had compromised health I'd maybe stay away from indoor walls this year until there was more information on sources of infection (from track/trace).
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Like Pete, I want walls to open again as soon as possible, mainly to keep the businesses going, but what I read regarding social distancing at the wall was at odds with the blog post that Pete quoted. Social distancing doesn't work indoors if you're there for a prolonged period (i.e. the length of a trip to the wall). Unless there is new evidence out that counters that article?
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I'd love things to go back to normal, but I won't hold my breath.
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Like Pete, I want walls to open again as soon as possible, mainly to keep the businesses going, but what I read regarding social distancing at the wall was at odds with the blog post that Pete quoted. Social distancing doesn't work indoors if you're there for a prolonged period (i.e. the length of a trip to the wall). Unless there is new evidence out that counters that article?
Agree. Unless everything I've previously read has now been superseded, an enclosed space full of heavy breathing, sweaty, panting people, who stay for hours at a time seems almost designed to spread the virus (and that's without any fomite transmission).
Unless a vaccine or very effective treatment is discovered, I can't imagine working in my office again - a pretty spacious three storey building with only around a dozen people inside at a time, nearly all with individual offices. Aside from the public health issue, the risk to business continuity would be too great - one infected person could force everyone else to self-isolate and ruin our ability to cover cases for weeks. The risks at a climbing wall, with lots more people, in an uncompartmented space, and more vigorous breathing seem much higher. A shame - I like my local wall and its staff - and am concerned about how they are getting on (and this fine weather can't last forever...).
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What Moose said.
(will - I think your point was covered in Pete’s text)
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I think Pete's points are important lessons but wall users are not static users in an enclosed space. A wall is more like a engineering company space where there is a bigger volume of air and people move around..... places where operations continued throughout this crisis. I'm more worried about restaurants and offices than indoor walls.
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What Moose said.
(will - I think your point was covered in Pete’s text)
When I read it back I realised I'd just paraphrased what Pete had said, but left it up as it had been on my mind prior to Pete's post anyway.
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I think Pete's points are important lessons but wall users are not static users in an enclosed space. A wall is more like a engineering company space where there is a bigger volume of air and people move around..... places where operations continued throughout this crisis. I'm more worried about restaurants and offices than indoor walls.
Depends on the size and layout of the wall!! Also - the movement of people can aid and hinder dispersal and concentration.
I know some of the major climbing centres have over 1000 people visit over a weekend (each staying for say 2-3 hours). That’s a far greater concentration of folk than a warehouse for example...
Though going at non busy (early in the day midweek) means you’re one of only a dozen people in a hangar!
Part of my internal justification for building my own woody was that I thought walls will be one of the later things to open - and tbh a place I’d be pretty wary of going to if/when restrictions allow. That’s my view - not everyone’s - and I’ll miss the social aspects a lot (and being able to see if I’ve improved on the board!).
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I reac the article previously and it has serious implications for enclosed spaces such as schools and shops.
However, the author is clear that shopping (as opposed to working) in a supermarket is low risk. Primary point is infection risk is a function of proximity x duration of exposure.
In a large air space proximity is effectively minimal. Aerosols circulate though so over extended periods this becomes irrelevant. Air flow direction from an infected person is also a big factor if people are static over an extended period- important for restaurants and classrooms, but people are mobile at the wall.
So the big issues are how big the airspace is, how it is ventilated, and how long you are there. A quick hit in the Depot Woody carries very different risks to a 3 hr evening session at a small wall.
+ TT, think a sensible wall would need to limit numbers, as per supermarkets. Maybe you’d need to book?
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Jon - on my FB feed overnight the rules for a bouldering wall chain in Austria were posted (re-opening today?). These included limited entry (total number restricted) with booking required at certain times. Hand hygiene etc.. Importance of maintaining social distancing and the closing of changing rooms/showers.
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Email I got from Little Rock Climbing Centre (very small but air-conditioned wall that’s the only one in a city the size of Derby population-wise) the other day:
OPEN AGAIN!
We are very excited to announce that we are open again to the public. The staff here has gone to extreme measures to ensure the gym has been completely sanitized. We've also implemented new measures to help maintain social distance and to limit the number of people in the gym. Here’s what you need to know:
To meet with the Arkansas Dept. of Health guidelines for gyms, we have implemented the following rules and procedures. Our rope stations will only be open every 12′ with new stations open on a daily rotating basis so you can still enjoy a gym full of routes. We will be checking staff daily for fever and any other symptoms. All the staff will be wearing masks, and we will continue our enhanced cleaning schedules. We will also keep hand sanitizer available for you.
COVID-19 Policies
Face Masks are REQUIRED for anyone entering the building.
Climbers are allowed to remove their masks only while actively exercising.
Hand washing is required before entering the climbing area.
Only climbing shoes are allowed on the climbing walls, no street shoes.
All who enter must be symptom/fever free for 72 hours
No entry for recent travelers to NY, NJ, Conn., New Orleans and over seas.
Gym capacity is limited to 30 climbers at one time.
Reservations are available on our website for 2-hour sessions.
Walk-ins are welcome if there is space available, but we suggest reserving your time in advance.
Minors (12 & under) must be accompanied by their parents, and they will count towards the total climbers in the gym.
Maintain social distancing by keeping a 6-foot distance from others and avoid personal contact.
Please respect others and do not climb on top ropes, auto-belays, lead routes or boulder routes within a 12 foot radius of other climbers who are not your partner.
We are looking forward to seeing all of you back here!
Logan Wilcoxson
Little Rock Climbing Center
I guess it’s interesting to see how they’re approaching this in different countries.
To put this into context, Arkansas has only had 115 deaths from the virus total and hasn’t had a lockdown, just closures of schools and gyms, etc. When you look at their figures for new cases though they’ve been roughly rising since the start of May so it seems to reflect what’s happening in most US states- “reopening” due to financial imperative/ just being bored of restrictions rather than any sensible reasons. My mates over their think it’s nuts and I’m not inclined to disagree.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.
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Not in Sheffield AFAIK. Probably because if you did that it Sheffield everyone would just go to the other walls
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.
Sounds like commercial suicide to me...
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Not heard of this anywhere. In Bristol TCA/UCR just have reduced capacity and live monitors on the website to check before you go. At Redpoint/Flashpoint you book a slot in advance (members can books further in advance than non members) think slots are 2 or 2.5 hrs. Not sure about bloc.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.
Sounds like commercial suicide to me...
Yup, understand they are in financial difficulty, but fleecing customers is not the way out of it, Especially when weather is (half) decent, and there are so many new home boards about. Friend went the other evening, she said there were 4 people in.
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That’s a bananas pricing strategy and would be pricey for London! Like Duma said, if it was a similar amount as the usual entry fee for 2.5-3hr slot then that would make sense but not for 1 hr.
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Indeed, and this has been pointed out by just about everyone on their social media, and they've studiously ignored it. People pointed out that 1 hour was not enough for a decent climbing session, so they claimed they "were listening to their customers" and doubled the time, along with doubling of the price.
If i had that much money to burn I'd take the kids to the cinema :)
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
No surprises there, seeing how busy the wall used to be in the evenings I'm sure they'll continue raking it in, staff are nice but the centre is managed by dicks, see also the parking eye fiasco. So glad to have AverticalWorld in Dundee also within an hours drive.
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Yeah, but deserted at present.
Given this situation, most people within feasible distance are opting for AVW, I'm considering the same.
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Boulder Hut on the Wirral has pre-booked 2h slots at regular rates. New slots every half hour. There's no klaxon after 2h but seems to self police ok. They've extended memberships too I think.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
This is madness!!
The Climbing Hangar have been brilliant - they froze all memberships while they were closed and when they re-opened only charged us 50% of the usual fee for the first month (the marketing was that this was worth 15 sessions free) before they started charging again. Now it's pre-booked sessions only - 3 hour sessions off peak and 2 hours at peak times. In addition, the main site at Sandhills has been significantly refurbished during lock down and at £27 per month for "unlimited" climbing I feel pretty lucky it's my local!
Nice one Ged :)
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Maybe Ged needs to expand Northwards too, as part of global domination.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.
I think a lot of walls make a considerable slice of their profits not from really keen climbers (and definitely not outdoor climbers), but from kids groups, parties, indoor only climbers and parents buying a drink and snack while waiting for the above. Before all of this those groups may well have effectively been subsidising people like me who buy a membership but otherwise spend practically no other money there. If the customer groups previously subsidising everyone else have dried up (which they presumably have done for many walls, or at least reduced), then you can understand why a price rise would affect the other groups.
That will be exacerbated if a) it's the only real option in the area, so it doesn't have competition to deal with (an hour's drive is pretty far to go for a wall session if you ask me), and b) the population density isn't high enough in the local area to cover fixed costs at the lower price point.
The walls in big cities are covered by both those factors, hence prices stay low.
Yup, understand they are in financial difficulty, but fleecing customers is not the way out of it, Especially when weather is (half) decent, and there are so many new home boards about. Friend went the other evening, she said there were 4 people in.
I mean, one person's "fleecing" is another person's "only way of staying in business....
That said, 1hr just isn't enough for any sort of climbing session. Takes me an hour just to do a quick fingerboard sesh! Surely there's a better sweet spot price point they could hit.
Out of interest which wall is it Chris?
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Transition Extreme, Aberdeen.
All valid points, but as you say, the price point is not where it should be. The climbing population is sufficient that at peak times just about every line in the centre is being used.
An hour might seem like a long way to drive, but the bouldering section is pretty poor, to the point that even in good times, I know of a lot of people who would happily head to Central Belt climbing facilities on a wet weekend to get a decent session in. And it's an easy drive by English standards.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.
Ours was similar when they first re-opened (seems a long time ago now!). Memberships were frozen when the walls closed in March and initially stayed frozen. Prebooked slots only and you had to book in for either roped climbing or bouldering/training areas. You could book as little as 5 minutes in advance if there were spaces.
I can't find their original reopening prices but I think it was something along the lines of:
2 hour sessions: £11.00, 2.5hr sessions £13.50. Another nearby wall started off at £14.50 for 2 hours but has now reduced to £9.50.
Once they had been open a few weeks, they started allowing people to stay on at the end of their slots as long as there was capacity in the next slot. Only the 17.30-20.00 slot regularly fills so you can effectively now stay as long as you like at other times. They also slashed the prices of the quietest sessions so arrivals between 6am and 10am dropped down to £5.50. You can now move freely between bouldering/training and ropes if capacity allows.
They have now reintroduced memberships and multipasses, with the option for people to keep theirs frozen if they weren't ready to return yet.
If you avoid peak times, it has been very quiet. Mask wearing is enforced around reception and encouraged elsewhere but the number of people bothering to wear one is disappointing. Adherence to distancing measures is as mixed as everywhere else.
The pricing would have put me off if I was taking kids too (they were full price at first). Southern rent prices suck.
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Transition Extreme, Aberdeen.
All valid points, but as you say, the price point is not where it should be. The climbing population is sufficient that at peak times just about every line in the centre is being used.
An hour might seem like a long way to drive, but the bouldering section is pretty poor, to the point that even in good times, I know of a lot of people who would happily head to Central Belt climbing facilities on a wet weekend to get a decent session in. And it's an easy drive by English standards.
Had a skim through their Facebook posts. Does sound like a bit of a cluster fuck. Like initially saying parents coming in solely to belay their children would have to pay?!
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Pricing now revised, 2 hr session on ropes is now £10, no change for bouldering which is daft.
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Just a thought, in case anyone had looked into this more closely and knows the details.
I’m guessing many/most have downloaded the NHS Covid app. I have to have it in order to check in to my office (mostly I work from home).
So the app works on proximity to other phones with the app. This means if you go to a climbing wall, even if it’s a huge open venue and everyone is very spread out, most people’s phones will be sat in bags/coats, all crowded together in racks of lockers. Therefore, to the app it will look like everyone in the wall has sat on top of each other’s heads for several hours. Is this going to mean one CV case will lead to everyone at the wall that night having to quarantine for two weeks, regardless of actual bodily proximity??
Note: I've retitled this thread to more accurately cover the general Covid climbing wall discussion it has become
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You're advised that if you leave your phone in a locker to switch the bluetooth tracing function off. In the app there's a pretty obvious slider/switch to do this.
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Is there a difference in how the QR code scanning and how the proximity tracing works? I know that the proximity tracing data is anonymised and relies upon people reporting their positive tests to the app, but is it the same for the QR code? I was speaking to my brother in Singapore this morning and he told me that their QR code system (which is all they have) is there so that contact tracers can call you up and find out more about your whereabouts within a premises i.e. it's not a case of quarantining everyone who went to the restaurant, they might just quarantine those who were sat near the positive case.
Not that that would really work in a climbing wall as everyone is milling around all the time.
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You're advised that if you leave your phone in a locker to switch the bluetooth tracing function off. In the app there's a pretty obvious slider/switch to do this.
Okay, cheers. Have only just downloaded and not had a play with yet.
I can see the value of this feature, but on the flipside it does mean I'm turning the app's functionality off at the time when I'm most likely to meet someone with CV19 (having had it switched on all day while sat upstairs at home). Presumably even if I left it on I would get no alert if the CV19 guy at the wall had switched their bluetooth off. Apologies if I'm totally missing how this works!
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I think some common sense (oh no!!) is required in how its used... and its clearly not a 'silver bullet' solution.
AFAIK it times how long and how close you are to another phone... and then there is an algorithm that assigns a risk of exposure to that combination. E.G. 0.5m away for 10 min is much worse than 3m away for 20 min etc... It won't be that simple but you get the jist. So yes - if you leave it in a locker next to another phone and then that person tests positive - it will think you were having a cuddle with the other person for a couple of hours - rather than being at opposite ends of the wall.
I normally keep my phone with me when I'm at the wall (I've not been since covid mind) so if it were in my chalk bucket pocket where it normally is - then if someone else has their phone in the same way it will work fine for the proximity tracking.
Living in a terrace I can see the phones of neighbours both sides on bluetooth - so thats an issue too I guess!
Where I see it being useful is if I'm stood next to someone in the que to drop off the lad at school for ten min who tests positive and has the app. Or if I'm in a bar/restaurant (I don't go there anymore..) and near someone who tested positive etc..
A false positive (e.g. my neighbour getting it but there being bricks and mortar between us) would be a pain as I suspect I would now legally be obliged to isolate for 14 days... but probably better to have a few too many false +ves than -ves...
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There's a clear and simple summary of how it works here.
https://covid19.nhs.uk/risk-scoring-algorithm.html
I wouldn't be turning it on at home so as to avoid false positives with adjoining neighbours.
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A false positive (e.g. my neighbour getting it but there being bricks and mortar between us) would be a pain as I suspect I would now legally be obliged to isolate for 14 days... but probably better to have a few too many false +ves than -ves...
I thought that you only have to legally isolate when called by someone from Test & Trace, and this app is advisory. I think that's also how some companies (I know it's happened at a Sainsburys near a friend) have not allowed staff time off work after being notified by the app...
The below is from the MEN: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-contact-tracing-apps-self-18989026
Matt Hancock has said that people who are asked to self-isolate by the newly-launched NHS trace app after coming into contact with someone with coronavirus are not subject to a 'legal requirement.'
Does anyone know how it works in practice? If I get a notification does it tell me exactly where I came into contact with someone? I guess that, whilst it's still in the early day's I'd probably want to make a judgement on the situation before deciding if I should isolate.
Taking Tom's comments, e.g. if it was in a queue at a school I'd be more convinced it was a true exposure to the virus compared to if it said I was at home.
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There's a clear and simple summary of how it works here.
https://covid19.nhs.uk/risk-scoring-algorithm.html
I wouldn't be turning it on at home so as to avoid false positives with adjoining neighbours.
"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."
If this is true, it makes the app completely useless for anyone who takes social distancing at all seriously. I will not reach that threshold with someone who wouldn't have contacted me outside the app anyway.
It talks further up the page about shorter distances being higher risk but then appears to say this isn't considered in deciding whether someone teachers the isolation threshold.
It is worth noting that the text I quoted above is unchanged from the IoW beta version of the app from August. It could be that the threshold has been updated for the full release and the words haven't?
But unless there is confirmation that shorter distances are treated differently for calculating the isolation threshold, I won't download the app.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482
From Monday, it will be a punishable offence not to comply with an official instruction to self-isolate, with fines starting at £1,000 and rising to £10,000 for repeat offenders or serious breaches.
The law applies to people who have tested positive for coronavirus, or who have been told by NHS Test and Trace to self-isolate because they have been in close contact with someone with the virus.
I paid quite a bit of attention to this article, and I swear the following paragraph was added after my first reading of it:
If the app tells you to self-isolate, you're supposed to, but it is not a legal requirement in the same way as when you test positive for the virus or are contacted directly by NHS test and trace.
Which supports what James said.
Interesting examples posted above.
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"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."
If this is true, it makes the app completely useless for anyone who takes social distancing at all seriously. I will not reach that threshold with someone who wouldn't have contacted me outside the app anyway.
It talks further up the page about shorter distances being higher risk but then appears to say this isn't considered in deciding whether someone teachers the isolation threshold.
It is worth noting that the text I quoted above is unchanged from the IoW beta version of the app from August. It could be that the threshold has been updated for the full release and the words haven't?
But unless there is confirmation that shorter distances are treated differently for calculating the isolation threshold, I won't download the app.
I'd suggest reading the page fully before springing to conclusions. It explains what updates have been made since the IoW test and that further updates can be made in an evidence based way as more data becomes available.
The page also explains that 2m is not the only distance threshold that can trigger a high-risk encounter. Encounters between 2m and 4m are also considered as Medium risk which accumulates risk at half the rate - i.e. you'd have to be stood between 2m and 4m away from someone who tested positive for Covid for 30 mins for it to be considered high risk. This is adjusted according to how far out the Case is from the onset of their symptoms - so if it was the day before or the day after you'd have to be nearer them for a bit longer (not sure by how much exactly).
The page explains why the distances are lumped into groups. There is a degree of uncertainty involved for technical and practical reasons (there is uncertainty in GPS positioning and Bluetooth signal strength gauging; and there is variation in where the device will be carried on people's bodies - for instance a lady might carry it in her handbag).
What I'm not sure about is whether it stacks risk from separate encounters. So let's say I wait in a queue and stand 3m from the person in front of me and behind me. We're like this for 20 minutes. They each go home and begin displaying symptoms. Positive tests follow. If those encounters are considered individually then I don't get alerted; if they're accumulated then I do.
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No GPS involved Will.
Problem is using the strength of the Bluetooth signal as a proxy for distance. Which sounds fine, but the signal is not a constant ‘strength’ as the phone is cleverly always changing the strength of the BT transmission to save battery life. Makes it tricky.
The app stores which devices its been close to - but not where (unless you were checked in via QR code).
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No GPS involved Will.
Problem is using the strength of the Bluetooth signal as a proxy for distance. Which sounds fine, but the signal is not a constant ‘strength’ as the phone is cleverly always changing the strength of the BT transmission to save battery life. Makes it tricky.
The app stores which devices its been close to - but not where (unless you were checked in via QR code).
My mistake. I'm using it on Android which requires "location services" to be on to make use of the Bluetooth proximity thing. At first glance I'd assumed that meant GPS too but it's just to give the phone permission to do the proximity thing with Bluetooth.
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"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."
I'd suggest reading the page fully before springing to conclusions. It explains what updates have been made since the IoW test and that further updates can be made in an evidence based way as more data becomes available.
I read the full page first. The wording in the Risk Thresholds and Notifications section is unambiguous and is the only part of the page that defines what the requirements are for a notification to be triggered.
However, after further reading, I'm fairly confident that this is a failure of communication, not a failing in the app.
What I'm not sure about is whether it stacks risk from separate encounters. So let's say I wait in a queue and stand 3m from the person in front of me and behind me. We're like this for 20 minutes. They each go home and begin displaying symptoms. Positive tests follow. If those encounters are considered individually then I don't get alerted; if they're accumulated then I do.
There is nothing to say that it stacks; it seems safe to assume that it doesn't.
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Shift this discussion to the other thread?
Anyway, I went down on Sunday afternoon with the kids which you would think might be busy-ish, it wasn't great climbing weather. Of the capacity of 25 climbers and 9 boulderers, there were us (I didn't have to pay as a belayer), plus another group of 4, and another pair, plus 2 people bouldering. We stayed over our allotted 2 hours, because there were just 2 people who came in to climb, and I had paid for an hour of bouldering, with only 1 other person bouldering. The skate park seemed busy, must be carrying the climbing wall financially for a change.
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Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.
This is madness!!
Quite. Pex is free 😉. Just saying...
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He was quoting me. Long way from Pex, but yes, been out on the coast a lot. Getting dark very early now though.
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I know ;) but Fatneck isn't... But outside is cool. incredible (to me; middle aged bore,) that so many younger climbers I speak to see climbing as an indoor activity, unsullied by dirt and rain and sharp rocks and things.
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I hear you on that.
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I hear you on that.
Long Drive from Aberdeen Chris but you can use my wall anytime for free{its in the Garden so fits in with current rules}
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Thanks for the offer mate, but I managed to finally get the garage woody complete before lockdown, same offer applies if you are ever over this way and the weather shits out (actually Newtonhill).
It's in the garage, so technically you won't be in the house.
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Thanks for the offer mate, but I managed to finally get the garage woody complete before lockdown, same offer applies if you are ever over this way and the weather shits out (actually Newtonhill).
It's in the garage, so technically you won't be in the house.
Cool Thanks...and i'm on the Black Isle, Here is a brief glimpse-
http://https://www.instagram.com/p/CB8jaRVg2lY/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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Ace. Looks very similar to richieb's and Gaz's, you sure you don't all share a house? ;)
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Ace. Looks very similar to richieb's and Gaz's, you sure you don't all share a house? ;)
Ha ha
They have system boards and a couple of beastmakers.
I have a 5m wide 6m high 60 board, a 4m arete and roof, slab wall and roof plus muscle up bar and fingerboard...this combines to enable me to climb at a much much lower standard than both Richie and Gaz, fortunately i make up for it by being technically inept, i cover this up with rage and depression.
I wouldn't call it "sharing". They lock me in the basement and if I'm very luck i am allowed out to feed at night.
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Seems fair :)
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What are current rules on wearing face coverings in other climbing walls? We've just had the introduction of having to wear one in the centre and time when you aren't actually climbing now.
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Same in the Depots and BuK.
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In Depot Pudsey and City Bloc you have to wear a mask at all times except when starting a climb (I.e. put it straight back once dropped off), same when doing an exercise in the gym, and when sat eating/drinking.
In practice though I've just been wearing mine the whole time, unless I'm really desperate for a breather. Feels better than putting it on / taking it off all the time.
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The wall in Poole is masks at all times incl when climbing.
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My new local wall doesn’t require masks when on the mats. Technically you’re suppose to have them on when in reception but given how small that is (i.e. there’s about 3m from front door to mats) that’s not enforced.
They’ve got two big industrial fans in the front and then an extractor fan at the back to try and create airflow instead. It’s a small wall so the airflow solution could work if the extractor were strong enough.
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Hey James didn’t I see that you’re in Skipton now? Just wondering what you’re considering your local wall as they all seem to be 45mins -1 hr away, just checking I hadn’t missed anywhere!!
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What are current rules on wearing face coverings in other climbing walls? We've just had the introduction of having to wear one in the centre and time when you aren't actually climbing now.
Have they got the doors open yet for extra ventilation? Was really surprised to see them closed when I was in last week as a result it was just as stuffy in there as always.
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Inside door open, but doors to outside not, although they have had them open before. A bit pointless. It was really windy and peeing down though, so might be for safety.
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Hey James didn’t I see that you’re in Skipton now? Just wondering what you’re considering your local wall as they all seem to be 45mins -1 hr away, just checking I hadn’t missed anywhere!!
We’re not there quite yet. Hopefully moving in about 3 weeks. Currently renting in the south lakes - new wall is called The Wall in Ulverston.
Ran by Joe Holden, nice guy and interesting problems. Annoying as I can only climb on downward facing jugs because of my wrist at the moment so it was limited for me unfortunately. Girlfriend had a great session though.
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Just seen a couple of posts, are climbing walls in England still open? Ours in Aberdeen closed up Boxing Day and hasn't reopened, I think most in Scotland have closed now.
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Just seen a couple of posts, are climbing walls in England still open? Ours in Aberdeen closed up Boxing Day and hasn't reopened, I think most in Scotland have closed now.
No.
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I think 'elite athletes' are still allowed to use them.
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OK, some powerclubbers must be in the elite then, unless this happened recently?
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OK, some powerclubbers must be in the elite then, unless this happened recently?
Were open last monday. Closed on Tuesday. Think thats reflected in PC entries?
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Walls were open monday, everything shut Tues AFAIK
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I’m still using mine.
It’s been very quiet mind, seem to have the place to myself, most days.
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Sorry, I really will get my coat this time.
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Sorry.
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OK, some powerclubbers must be in the elite then, unless this happened recently?
Were open last monday. Closed on Tuesday. Think that's reflected in PC entries?
Ok, that's the answer I was looking for, more helpful than "NO", Thanks.
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Paper on chalk vs covid now peer reviewed:
https://www.abcwalls.co.uk/chalk-research/
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Crapping fuck, they should have just injected liquid chalk into my veins (which I've always wanted anyway), instead of the AZ 5g nano-receivers :yes: