UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Teaboy on February 08, 2022, 12:04:31 pm
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I’ve not seen a similar thread but if there is one please point me in the direction.
I’m looking at the options for insulating and heating my house and becoming increasingly flummoxed by all the options so am hoping people here can help with the knowledge. Initial high level questions are:
1. Everything I read says you have to insulate and eliminate drafts but also says this can lead to condensation and damp problems. How do you get around this issue? Do you just have to keep the internal surface of walls warm enough so you don’t get condensation?
2. Does external thermal cladding really work? We have thick walls so by the time any heat reaches it we’ve already lost a load of energy to the walls? Is the idea, again, that you keep the walls at a consistent temp so you never actually lose the heat or is the theory that they work like a heat sink?
3. What thickness of internal wall insulation would make a noticeable difference?
4. Anyone got any stories to share about air source heat pumps in old houses?
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Oooh, I'm really interested in this topic too. Our old boiler is on its last legs and we have been looking into the alternatives for replacement. Air source heat pumps are hailed as being more 'green' but seem to have a long list of drawbacks like high initial expense and not actually being that effective at heating water in cold weather. An electric boiler could be a good bet, at least more environmentally friendly than a gas version, but it would be helpful to hear if anyone has experience of installing / using one and how effective it is in practice. Although electricity still has a muddy footprint currently, no doubt this situation will continue to improve as more is invested into generating green energy going forward.
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First up - Air Source on anything other than brand new, highly insulated dwellings will cost you an arm and a leg in electricity bills.
There is already quite a back lash growing, with lots of 'Angry from Kent' articles about how they've installed Air Source because they were sold a line by the installers about the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) payments earning them loads of money etc. However, Electricity being about 4 times more expensive per unit than gas, coupled with the ASHP struggling flat out to heat their old homes means huge electricity bills.
There is soooooo much conjecture about insulating existing stone built walls. In theory, insulating your home well is the sure fire way to save on fuel bills in the long run, but its just not that easy to do on existing and old properties.
If you do, breathable insulations like woodfibre should be looked at first.
Unless well installed, contiguous vapour control layers are installed behind your plasterboard, then interstitial condensation is a real risk. This is condensation forming between the back of the insulation and the wall. i.e. at the point that it suddenly gets cold. This is why external insulation is often, technically a better way, but is much harder to get right as it completely alters the look and external character of you house. (unless its already rendered).
This does create a high thermal mass dwelling, (thick stone walls as you suggest) which is often considered to be a good thing. i.e. once it gets up to temp, it offers a very steady state environment. So long as the heat is being prevented from escaping once its soaked through the walll, (see external insulation) little further heat is needed to keep it ticking over.
Passiv Haus design is based (in part) in this concept.
Good ventilation is also needed. Good extraction in showers and kitchens is essential along with provision of controllable supply of fresh air. (adequate trickle vents on windows, air bricks etc that can be shut in cold weather and opened up in mild weather. (not that anyone does this much).
Its a flippin nightmare and our phone is ringing off the hook at work with folks bealing about their EPC ratings.
As a bit of wider education - please note - EPC ratings A-G are based on the expected fuel costs of the dwelling, not necessirly its 'efficiency'/green/eco credentials. (that word or at least its use, really triggers me).
So a straight move from cheap mains gas to expensive mains electricity, is going to take you say from a B rated EPC, to a C or D rated EPC. Thus when the government say they want landlords to improve their homes to get C rated EPCs (currently E rated under the MEES regs) essentially, they are saying ditch the electric heaters and install mains gas combis.
Its all arse about face.
I digress.
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Oooh, I'm really interested in this topic too. Our old boiler is on its last legs and we have been looking into the alternatives for replacement. Air source heat pumps are hailed as being more 'green' but seem to have a long list of drawbacks like high initial expense and not actually being that effective at heating water in cold weather. An electric boiler could be a good bet, at least more environmentally friendly than a gas version, but it would be helpful to hear if anyone has experience of installing / using one and how effective it is in practice. Although electricity still has a muddy footprint currently, no doubt this situation will continue to improve as more is invested into generating green energy going forward.
It all depends on your motives.
If you want to save money and lower your fuel bills, install new mains gas combi (while you still can).
If you want to help fight climate change, install an electric combi boiler, (might need electrics upgrade etc) and let the government worry about supplying a green grid. However, your fuel bill will sky rocket.
If you have the capital, install solar PV panels to help reduce the electricity usage/fuel bill (and perhaps even a battery storage unit such as a tesla solar wall).
There is much talk of mains gas being replaced by Hydrogen. All a nice idea, however I suspect we are a long long way off this. You'll hear politicians talk about it, but not about where they're suddenly going to find all the hydrogen.
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An electric boiler could be a good bet, at least more environmentally friendly than a gas version, but it would be helpful to hear if anyone has experience of installing / using one and how effective it is in practice.
If you think you plan to sell your house in the medium term you need to be wary that this will actually worsen your EPC rating, I was surprised to find this out recently as we now have contradictory govt policies!
Edit: Sam’s just covered this point better than me!
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Thanks Sam, I’m still a bit unclear about how the condensation issue is typically considered an issue for old houses not modern, well insulated ones. Is it just that the internal walls never get cold enough for moisture to condense on them?
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Thanks Sam, I’m still a bit unclear about how the condensation issue is typically considered an issue for old houses not modern, well insulated ones. Is it just that the internal walls never get cold enough for moisture to condense on them?
It can be an issue with modern construction methods if designed badly. This is why a condensation risk analysis is done.
The issue is the fact that old houses were never designed with insulation in mind so now with retrofit we’re trying to insulate around what is already there. And the ‘easiest’ way is often to put it internal to the cold structure which causes the issue Sam mentions. And in fact makes it worse because the internal insulation makes the walls even colder than they would have previously been if there was no insulation (=increased risk of interstitial condensation). Ideally it would always be external to the structure so you get no issues with cold bridging and the walls stay warm to avoid condensation. Basically it’s about where the insulation is in relation to the rest of the wall build-up.
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I was under the impression that MVHR was the gold standard system for solving the condensation issue. But as nobody has mentioned it am I being beguiled by the marketing? Would love to instal MVHR on my victorian terrace but I could spend another 100 years trying to find all the cracks and draughts so I've resigned to save it for the next abode.
Interesting points on EPC I didn't know thanks.
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MVHR is just a good extraction system.
If all the moisture content in the air is extracted, then there is nothing to condense out.
MVHRs are very intrusive to retro fit into an existing dwelling. You have to find routes for all your ducting to every room. Nigh on impossible in a lot of dwellings.
They use quite a bit of energy to run (powerful electric fan running 24/7 to push the air around the ducting etc.) Its been suggested that unless you've got a very air tight dwelling, i.e. an air leakage rate of less than 3 m3/m2/hr, they'll use more energy running than they'll recoup from the exhaust air. That's fine if all you want to do is make sure you're extracting stale air and supplying fresh, but if you've got a leaky house then you're electricity bill will go up.
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I wouldn’t install MVHR unless you get a blower door test on it first to know roughly how leaky it is.
Passivhaus Trust released a paper last year attempting to debunk what Sam says re: increased CO2 emissions in leaky houses if you install MVHR and advocating for them to be installed across the board but I think the jury is still out.
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They're definitely great for ventilation and air quality and if that's your goal, fine.
However - without having the time to go and do some googling of specs and maths - i suspect they easily use more electricity per day than normal intermittent fans.
As to whether they recoup more than that in heat through reclaimed by the heat exchanger is probably incredibly hard to prove without a lot of experiments and research.
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Must be on my 10th call at work today explaining how EPCs are based on price.
"But I've got super efficient (that word again) electric panel heaters!!!" Why is my EPC a D rating rant rant rant"
We need an automated message - "press one for an explanation of why you're disappointed with your EPC"
The next few months are going to be challenging.
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Is there any easy way of figuring out where draughts enter the house, short of doing an air leakage test, which I know would fail so dismally as to be meaningless.
Our house definitely feels decidedly colder on windy days, could plug any obvious gaps with expanding foam if I knew where they were.
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Is there any easy way of figuring out where draughts enter the house, short of doing an air leakage test, which I know would fail so dismally as to be meaningless.
Our house definitely feels decidedly colder on windy days, could plug any obvious gaps with expanding foam if I knew where they were.
Just pick a windy day in winter and go hunting! It really isn’t too difficult to identify the big ones. Use the back of your hand to feel the draughts or the smoke from an incense stick or something to see the smoke trail being blown about.
Most likely they’ll be around the loft hatch, lots behind kitchen units eg where waste goes through the wall (a pain to get to if not sealed at the time the kitchen was fitted though), between bottom of skirting boards and flooring/floorboards (pull carpets back and mastic seal), sometimes around boiler flue.
You’ll find them. Just depends how forensic you want to be and how much stuff you’re willing to disturb in an effort to get to them! Best done during refurb work so you don’t make a mess.
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Thanks, incense stick is a good idea.
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Oooh, I'm really interested in this topic too. Our old boiler is on its last legs and we have been looking into the alternatives for replacement. Air source heat pumps are hailed as being more 'green' but seem to have a long list of drawbacks like high initial expense and not actually being that effective at heating water in cold weather. An electric boiler could be a good bet, at least more environmentally friendly than a gas version, but it would be helpful to hear if anyone has experience of installing / using one and how effective it is in practice. Although electricity still has a muddy footprint currently, no doubt this situation will continue to improve as more is invested into generating green energy going forward.
It all depends on your motives.
If you want to save money and lower your fuel bills, install new mains gas combi (while you still can).
If you want to help fight climate change, install an electric combi boiler, (might need electrics upgrade etc) and let the government worry about supplying a green grid. However, your fuel bill will sky rocket.
If you have the capital, install solar PV panels to help reduce the electricity usage/fuel bill (and perhaps even a battery storage unit such as a tesla solar wall).
There is much talk of mains gas being replaced by Hydrogen. All a nice idea, however I suspect we are a long long way off this. You'll hear politicians talk about it, but not about where they're suddenly going to find all the hydrogen.
Thanks for the expert advice. Do you think gas will genuinely still be the cheaper option with all the recent (and future) price hikes?
My motive is to reduce my carbon footprint, but I don't have the luxury of being able to afford to do that by the sound of it. It's a shame that the greener alternatives for heating and transport have such high price tags attached, also seems like the technology and national infrastructure has some catching up to do before the majority of the population could consider switching.
Let's pretend I did decide to fork out for the higher running costs of an electric combi boiler - would it be as effective for generating hot water as a gas version?
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Thanks for the expert advice. Do you think gas will genuinely still be the cheaper option with all the recent (and future) price hikes?
Current price of gas - about 3.something pence per kWh
Current price of Electricity - about 17.something per kWh.
We still generate a lot of our electricity using natural gas. 10% at the moment, but this goes up on low wind days to 20% or more.
https://gridwatch.co.uk/
Gas price goes up, Electricity prices go up.
Sure, they reckon gas will get more expensive as it runs out. But they've been saying that for over 10 years now, and I still see no sign of it.
My motive is to reduce my carbon footprint, but I don't have the luxury of being able to afford to do that by the sound of it. It's a shame that the greener alternatives for heating and transport have such high price tags attached, also seems like the technology and national infrastructure has some catching up to do before the majority of the population could consider switching.
I know, shit isn't it. We're all doomed etc etc etc. ::) :'(
Let's pretend I did decide to fork out for the higher running costs of an electric combi boiler - would it be as effective for generating hot water as a gas version?
I've not real world feed back as of yet. Seeing a reasonable number of installations through work, but no feedback as yet.
Time will tell.
Have a look at what's available here...
https://www.electric-heatingcompany.co.uk/electric-boilers/
Anything over 9kw (a good electric shower) is going to need some serious wiring/fuses.
12kW would need (I think, not a sparky) a 50Amp fuse and a 16mm cable which is pretty damned chunky.
My electricity supply has just had been upgraded to a 100amp incoming fuse (due to electric car charging point installation) but that's for everything. I have a feeling a 24 kW boiler would need 3 phase electricity supply which is going to cost potentially a lot of money and digging. Any sparkys out there care to comment. ??
Once again the politicians flapping about, spewing buzz words, EVs, electric boilers, etc etc, without any thought to the real world implications.
Mind you - 10 years ago - there were practically no offshore windfarms and relatively few onshore wind farms. Right now wind is providing 47% of the grids demand!!
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Modern gas combi boilers are ~ 96% efficient
Modern CCGTs (gas fired power stations) are at best 60% efficient
modern combi boilers are about as efficient a way to use gas as possible
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modern combi boilers are about as efficient a way to use gas as possible
Yeh. After a lot of deliberation and number crunching I can’t justify any alternative other than replacing our gas combi boiler when it gets changed this year unfortunately. And then spend the savings on insulation and other fabric improvements. At least it will be more efficient than the 10+ yr old one we have now.
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Reading this thread with interest after buying our dream house in November, just before all this energy price hike stuff kicked off.
For one, as a permanent WFH-er I try not to have the heating on when it's just me in the house, so have discovered the benefits of layering, quilted "shackets" and sitting with a down jacket over your legs!
As for the house, on the plus side, it has a nearly new combi boiler, and is modern construction (but not a new build) so is well insulated.
On the negative side - we have an Aga.
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On the negative side - we have an Aga.
Know so many people (ok maybe a few) who have moved in to a house with one, seen fuel bills after use, removed and sold.
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I haven't posted on here in years, Sam T has definitely outlined this beautifully.
I did my passivhaus contractors course last year at CSIC and they have a number of decent videos on the topic such as the following, specifically on retrofit.
https://youtu.be/2w1LZTIizcs
Sorry I know I need to edit that to embed it, but it's been too long for me to remember how.
I've half ruined (slight exaggeration) my bungalow by carrying out various kind of insulation and vapour barriers over the years, by chipping away at insulating/air-sealing one room at a time, so currently only the loft conversion and around 50% of below the floor done, but not properly, since I used glass wool below the floor and above ceilings in the eaves, without a membrane to control prevent cold air blowing through solum and eaves from robbing the heat away. I only learned the futility of my actions on the course.
unless taken as a whole you do tend to create other issues or spunk your money away for no real gain (environmentally or otherwise), unless you're either very lucky (not like me) or well informed.
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For one, as a permanent WFH-er I try not to have the heating on when it's just me in the house, so have discovered the benefits of layering, quilted "shackets" and sitting with a down jacket over your legs!
North Face down slippers are absolutely incredible for this.
Our house is an 1890s terrace and draughty as fuck, not helped by having microbore heating pipes, single glazed windows (attractive, a big reason why we bought it) and a very small radiator in the front (north facing, coldest) room. That said, its been fine throughout this winter and the fuel bills so far are manageable, although obviously going to get more expensive.
With a house like this though, it seems to me that unless you're having major refurb work done (we aren't), the only way to insulate it efficiently would be to knock it down and start again!
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For one, as a permanent WFH-er I try not to have the heating on when it's just me in the house, so have discovered the benefits of layering, quilted "shackets" and sitting with a down jacket over your legs!
North Face down slippers are absolutely incredible for this.
I raise you an electric heated blanket!
It's not free, but is heavenly and cheaper than putting the heating on.
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North Face down slippers are absolutely incredible for this.
Look upon my slippers with envy
https://www.bedroomathletics.com/collections/mens-slipper-boots/products/cruise-fairisle-sherpa-fleece-slipper?variant=36552391098532
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unless taken as a whole you do tend to create other issues or spunk your money away for no real gain (environmentally or otherwise), unless you're either very lucky (not like me) or well informed.
Thanks for the link and sharing your experiences. The room by room approach was what I was going to do, are you saying you don’t get any benefit or that it would be better to do the whole house. Some of the things recommended are never going to be possible in my house (moving every window!?) but surely adding internal insulation to the external walls can help?
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I think the biggest heat loss in our house is down through to the double garage which is beneath the main bedroom, with very little / no insulation in the floor. I'd be reluctant to pull up the entire floor and insulate beneath (floor to ceiling IKEA wardrobes etc) but would covering the garage roof with insulation boarding be a good fix, or would it make little difference?
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Thanks Chris, just ordered a pair of those Sherpa Slipper Boots for 20squid, luvvlyjubbly
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Chris, and i think insulation board to the garage
roof ceiling would defo make a difference
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I think the biggest heat loss in our house is down through to the double garage which is beneath the main bedroom, with very little / no insulation in the floor. I'd be reluctant to pull up the entire floor and insulate beneath (floor to ceiling IKEA wardrobes etc) but would covering the garage roof with insulation boarding be a good fix, or would it make little difference?
Can you not insulate from below between the rafters? Removing the ceiling if necessary
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I think the biggest heat loss in our house is down through to the double garage which is beneath the main bedroom, with very little / no insulation in the floor. I'd be reluctant to pull up the entire floor and insulate beneath (floor to ceiling IKEA wardrobes etc) but would covering the garage roof with insulation boarding be a good fix, or would it make little difference?
Can you not insulate from below between the rafters? Removing the ceiling if necessary
Yes, this is about as good as it gets for piecemeal approach
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I could, but that would mean removing and replacing about 20 sq m of plasterboard which would be a grim and time consuming job, and result in a lot of landfill.
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Thanks Chris, just ordered a pair of those Sherpa Slipper Boots for 20squid, luvvlyjubbly
You'll not regret it.
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unless taken as a whole you do tend to create other issues or spunk your money away for no real gain (environmentally or otherwise), unless you're either very lucky (not like me) or well informed.
Thanks for the link and sharing your experiences. The room by room approach was what I was going to do, are you saying you don’t get any benefit or that it would be better to do the whole house. Some of the things recommended are never going to be possible in my house (moving every window!?) but surely adding internal insulation to the external walls can help?
I'm not saying that it isn't worthwhile, just worth thoroughly researching prior to spending (what is a lot of) time and money into it.
Insulating internally can work, but maintaining the insulation line is very difficult (Sam pointed this out earlier, hence why external wall insulation is looking most likely for a lot of old housing stock)
My kitchen-diner is now fairly airtight to the immediate outside world, but is nowhere near airtight up to the eaves space. As such, where warm air used to escape to the outdoors, it now condenses on the copper nails (as conductive as you can get, but required for marine environment) and drips down onto the glass wool above the ceiling. If we were to replace the whole ceiling in this room and remove the downlighters (which allow a silly volume of air through), replacing them with something else that doesn't penetrate the ceiling, this problem would largely go away.
Mrs rodma is dead-against EWI, so we'll be freezing in this house forever, since the external area of the house is about as large as is possible when compared to the area of living space internally.
We need more square, two up, two down and terraced housing. Looks boring, but is (blanket statement alert) generally more efficient.
We're similar to others on here, where we line longed to have our own four walls, no immediate neighbors to either upset or be upset by, and that's the root of the problem; those pesky noisy neighbors helped keep us warm
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I think the biggest heat loss in our house is down through to the double garage which is beneath the main bedroom, with very little / no insulation in the floor. I'd be reluctant to pull up the entire floor and insulate beneath (floor to ceiling IKEA wardrobes etc) but would covering the garage roof with insulation boarding be a good fix, or would it make little difference?
I reckon you'd not regret that . If head room is not an issue - 50mm of PIR board (or 62.5mm if its bonded to plasterboard) right across the ceiling will help make the bedroom feel warmer.
One thought though, just double check fire regs. You most likely need to double board i.e. 2 layers of plasterboard, to give the requisite fire resistance. I'm not up on that side of things. Petrol/cars/lawn mowers/solvents/aerosols etc in garage can catch fire. Its not that you're making things any worse - lets face it, timber joists will soon go up in flames, but may be worth doing the job right if you do it.
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On the negative side - we have an Aga.
Know so many people (ok maybe a few) who have moved in to a house with one, seen fuel bills after use, removed and sold.
Between that and the general "having to completely change the way you cook things" thing we are moving very close to that position I think!
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Just as a point of order
Modern gas combi boilers are ~ 96% efficient
Hmm - not quite true - 89 point something percent usually. Heating oil and LPG boilers are little more efficient - maybe 91.
https://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbsearchresults.jsp?fuel=1&mainType=2&brand=&model=&modelQualifier=&pid=26&btnSubmit=Search
modern combi boilers are about as efficient a way to use gas as possible
Agreed. Plus there is no transmission loss across the network, the gas you put in the pipe at Milford Haven is the gas you get out in Sheffield. (albeit with a tiny tiny calorific value loss due to moisture content increasing along the way, you can see how they correct for this on your bill)
The national electricity grid is horribly in-efficient with losses along every step of the way (power station, transformers, cables etc).
IF, and its a big if, we find a cheap, easy way to produce Hydrogen, and (and its a big and) the gas network can be upgraded to take hydrogen*, and, boilers can be manufactured to burn it safely in the home, then we might have a truly efficient, ultra low, non nuclear energy source. We can but dream.
(* hydrogen, being such a tiny atom, compared to the long chain molecules of methane/ethane/propane, will leak through gaps in the gas distribution network that we don't even know about yet. ).
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I could, but that would mean removing and replacing about 20 sq m of plasterboard which would be a grim and time consuming job, and result in a lot of landfill.
Don't forget, it might improve the house warmth but will make your garage (AKA climbing wall) colder...
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Given that it's piss poorly insulated, and very draughty, and has a double single sheet metal door, I think heat retention in there is zero anyway.
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IF, and its a big if, we find a cheap, easy way to produce Hydrogen, and (and its a big and) the gas network can be upgraded to take hydrogen*, and, boilers can be manufactured to burn it safely in the home, then we might have a truly efficient, ultra low, non nuclear energy source. We can but dream.
(* hydrogen, being such a tiny atom, compared to the long chain molecules of methane/ethane/propane, will leak through gaps in the gas distribution network that we don't even know about yet. ).
I feel like we have as much chance as rolling out nuclear fusion across the country!
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Funny you should mention that....
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-60312633
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Ha that was my inspiration for bringing it up as a comparison! Fun ideas for the future that seem v v unlikely to be making a dent in our current requirement for net zero.
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Having done little about this over the summer's now in panic mode looking at front doors. I've got a couple of quotes from mainstream suppliers (SafeStyle and Anglian) which I'm ok with but neither seemed up on thermal efficiency (both were the warmest on the market though!). Reading around I'd say these would have U values of about 1.5 to 1.8, are there doors out there that are significantly better and if not will a standard composite give me a significant improvement on my existing part single glazed, single skin door?
Another idea is to replace the glazed glazed panel and fan light with a new sealed unit, anyone does this as a DIY task?
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While we're on the subject I've also got a rough estimate for external insulation. As the house is in a conservation area I think I'll only be able to get permission for two or three of the four aspects. Is this completely pointless or worth doing?
Leaving aside the fact that she walls would be insulation free I just can't imagine getting the solid walls warm enough for them not to be a massive heat sink, anyone experience of this?
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The fact they are solid walls will not affect the efficiency of the insulation, although you have to be a bit wary of heat bridging to the non insulated walls. The walls will effectively act as heat stores (storage heaters) and help maintain a constant indoor temperature (in summer too). Internal insulation could be an option, you can get insulated plasterboard that will only lose a couple of inches of room. With insulation, there are diminishing returns with thickness. So you get a similar difference in u-value going from 0-50mm of loft insulation as from 50-300mm.
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Thanks wasbeen, the problem with internal insulation is the coving etc which we’d have to replace (as well as the disruption) but there also seems to be more potential for things to go wrong with condensation.
Whilst sticking a massive tea cost over the building seems superficiality attractive I imagine the walls will always be significantly colder than the desired internal temp so will constantly be drawing heat out of the room whereas with internal insulation would trap it in the room. I have a dread of spending thousands of pounds heating hundreds of tonnes of stone over winter only for spring to arrive just as it reaches optimal temp!
Thank you for preempting the question I forgot to ask, about the optimal thickness of loft insulation, sounds like there’s no point filling the entire void.
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Whilst sticking a massive tea cost over the building seems superficiality attractive I imagine the walls will always be significantly colder than the desired internal temp so will constantly be drawing heat out of the room whereas with internal insulation would trap it in the room.
I'm either reading this wrong, or there's something been lost in translation along the way...
External insulation will result in a very quick temp transition in the insulation and a slower one through the solid wall. Here's a good graphic:
(https://vleweb.ccn.ac.uk/constructionweb/hi4web/cond_vc1.png)
In fact, it's a long winded but pretty decent overview of how insulation and condensation work: https://vleweb.ccn.ac.uk/constructionweb/hi4web/condense/print.htm
It seems that, generally, external is easier and less prone to issues. I've heard some good things about this stuff for internalm insulation rendering, as it's porous but stuck on to the walls: https://norfolkrendering.co.uk/diathonite-evolution/179/ (note, I'm not in the trade and can't even remember where I heard about it, might have been a podcast?)
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I've heard some good things about this stuff for internal insulation rendering, as it's porous but stuck on to the walls: https://norfolkrendering.co.uk/diathonite-evolution/179/ (note, I'm not in the trade and can't even remember where I heard about it, might have been a podcast?)
Only trouble with Diathonite would be getting someone experienced to apply it that wouldn’t bankrupt you in the process. It’s cork based I think and would need lime top coat so bog standard plasterers prob wouldn’t touch it. And ideally you’d take it back to brick first to get maximum thickness.
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A previous life in building services design, albeit 10+ years ago, so my knowledge is a little faded now... I would say, external insulation needs to be looked at super closely as there's a risk of the dew point being in the wall, this can cause serious long term damage to the wall, as well as the obvious damp.
Internal insulation we always preferred, and with a vapour barrier you should have no problems. Also over 75mm thick usually creates a large enough differential in temp that the dew point won't be on the surface of the wall.
I can vouch that even as little as 15mm insulation can make a huge difference to a room/house. Our ceilings when we our house were old lime plaster and nothing else, straight under slate roof... burrr, so I boarded through out with between 15&25mm and it transformed the house. U value went from about 4.5 to 1. I'm thinking of doing all upstairs walls (400mm thick stone) in 25mm so going from about 2.0 down to 0.7. At about £18 a sheet, plus plasterboard its a pretty cheap way to do it. Not sure what the cost involved in external insulation is now but I'd hazard a guess the return on outlay will be into 10+ years
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Sorry, Ali is totally correct - that was not a recommendation, more of a - "look at this cool shit" post...
High end renovations only I guess.
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Conventional wisdom is that old houses were designed to breath. I think they were designed to be badly insulated and draughty. People impart, wisdom on the house builders of yore. But throughout history they have always had the capacity to build shit houses it is just that the bad ones fell down or were demolished, we are left with the best of the rest. It seems remarkable that they sent a man to the moon in the 60's but they were still building houses with no insulation for decades after. There are definitely issues "sealing" old houses particularly around lime mortar and rising damp which needs to be carefully managed. However I despise the referential treatment old houses get and theoverly protective listed building regulations. *Silly rant over*
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Think this is partly fair, but anyone who knows someone who's bought a new build recently will also know that buying a new one has its issues as well!
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It seems remarkable that they sent a man to the moon in the 60's but they were still building houses with no insulation for decades after.
And are still building houses to piss poor standards 60 years later. Not only in terms of quality but emissions too. That’s what you get when Persimmon et al are allowed to basically write their own building regs to maximise profit.
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Yes, you have the absurd situation where planning would rather see old houses fall into ruin then be restored to anything other than their particular (and vastly expensive) Hobbiton vision of its history. On the other hand you have shit mass housing being thrown up for peanuts and sold for pine nuts that may not even last the length of the mortgage.
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Yes, you have the absurd situation where planning would rather see old houses fall into ruin then be restored to anything other than their particular (and vastly expensive) Hobbiton vision of its history. On the other hand you have shit mass housing being thrown up for peanuts and sold for pine nuts that may not even last the length of the mortgage.
Or new build city apartments that are only designed with a 25 year design life an no way to inspect the joints, resulting in zero value home reports 20 years later.....
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Point of order. New houses actually have rather good levels of insulation these days. The 2013 Part L building regs were fairly onerous and tried to force a move away from the industry standard 100mm cavity, to a 150mm cavity, (but failed as there are ways around it).
The new 2022 regs that came into force in June (after multiple delays , was meant to be 2016 but due to Brexit/Covid etc have only just made it into law) are far more strict and less flexible. Levels of insulation, insulation continuity, air tightness etc are really high. Furthermore, gas boilers are practically impossible to specify, and heat pumps are just about the only form of heating that can get through the regs without recourse to a lot of Solar PV panels to compensate.
So actually, new builds these days are pretty good I'd say.
Mill/office conversions to flats.. less so!!
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100% agree regarding current insulation standards. My dull moaning was aimed at the general build quality and architectural merit of "affordable housing".
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Indeed. The new developments all around us are like cardboard cutouts. The planned new town is a strange place in it's current condition.
https://chapeltonnewtown.co.uk/vision/masterplan/
Will dwarf Newtonhill (to the right of the dual carriageway) if it ever reaches completion
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I have just submitted a planning application for an extension and refurbishment of my house and a major part of the cost plan is for the upgrading of the insulation and heating system.Its a 1960s flat roofed rendered property with a full electric underfloor heating system which i guess at the time was very high spec but now is the most inefficient system you could have. During the winter months the heating bill was in excess of £750 a MONTH and that's at last years rates.
We are converting the house to a heat pump system powered by PVs which means digging up all of the floors and replacing the electric system to a liquid one and improve the insulation in the floors which in total is going to cost over 60k. We will be pretty much self sufficient in heating and power for this investment however.
The biggest surprise i had during the development was the levels of insulation needed to get a heat pump to work efficiently. The roof has been redone recently and we have 200mm of Kingspan on top of the shit that was already there so pretty good, and the windows are all high spec double glazing, but i had thought that all we would need to do to the walls would be fill the 90mm cavities. How wrong i was, we are having to fully clad the whole external of house with 200mm of insulation and fill the cavity. We are using a rainscreen system to do this which isnt cheap but even a render system adds another 20k to the project so 80k all in.
This level of insulation is partly due to the extension having a lot of glass as planning now requires this to be compensated for in the rest of the house, and also we are trying to get things as "passive" as possible but it blew me away just how much insulation is needed and how much it costs.
I am fully on board with changing the regs for new builds but really dont know how we will ever upgrade existing stcok to levels that are really required.
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So actually, new builds these days are pretty good I'd say.
Only if you ignore the massive performance gap that still exists :worms:
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:agree:
That lies firmly at the door of Building Control, who are an omnishambles in my experience.
Though, the new building regs, (in theory) require photos of every insulation junction to be taken at all stages of the build, for every plot, to be given to the SAP assessor and Building Control Officer. This in an attempt to close that performance gap. Whether or not it is workable in reality, is another question.
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photos of every insulation junction to be taken at all stages of the build, for every plot, to be given to the SAP assessor and Building Control Officer…Whether or not it is workable in reality, is another question.
:lol: Anyone who’s spent time on a large housing development in recent years knows how likely that is to happen :lol:
Cue site managers creating folders of stock images to submit and/or do swapsies with colleagues. It’ll be a tick-box exercise at best unfortunately.
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photos of every insulation junction to be taken at all stages of the build, for every plot, to be given to the SAP assessor and Building Control Officer…Whether or not it is workable in reality, is another question.
:lol: Anyone who’s spent time on a large housing development in recent years knows how likely that is to happen :lol:
Cue site managers creating folders of stock images to submit and/or do swapsies with colleagues. It’ll be a tick-box exercise at best unfortunately.
That would be pretty easy to stop though. GPS and date stamped photos
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Likewise it'd stop the first time someone put in a claim against them retrospectively.
Or new build city apartments that are only designed with a 25 year design life an no way to inspect the joints, resulting in zero value home reports 20 years later.....
This baffles me. How is any designer getting away with a) a design life of 25 years for a structure like you describe and b) not designing for maintenance/inspection (which is entirely foreseeable)?
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Likewise it'd stop the first time someone put in a claim against them retrospectively.
Same as when it stopped the dodgy practices of volume housebuilders the first time people started noticing defects…
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Point taken to a degree; I think a lot of people just seem to accept it rather than challenge it.
My folks have a new David Wilson home (they've been in it about 18M) and I made it clear they should get a snagging engineer in but they refused (probably as it might've delayed them into living with me for a few weeks more) and there've been all kinds of issues. I remain unconvinced it's insulated properly as the upstairs is very poor at retaining heat and they're having damp issues in the back of all of the cupboards (although from what I gather they did plaster it when there was snow outside, without the building being watertight).
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Sorry to hear that Paul. I really do pity the people who’ve bought some of these houses. What you describe isn’t unusual and will be the tip of the iceberg. I’ve heard anecdotally that the volume housebuilders have taken the view that it’s more profitable for them to throw up shit quality houses and then cough up on remedials if and when people complain rather than build properly in the first place.
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When I lived in North Yorkshire some of big builders used to local tradesmen to tile floors and the like. After they done one or two houses they usually told them to stuff their job because they didn’t want to be associated with such crap workmanship that they had seen in the rest of the building.
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Sorry to hear that Paul.
Thanks but it was their choice, after all there were plenty of period properties available at a similar price (albeit with different comprises). Conversely my in-laws bought a new build just around the corner which was built by a small local firm who do 10 or so properties at a time and it's on another level. My FiL was a building services engineer his whole life and so the spec got tweaked quite a lot. Anyhow, back on topic...
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Sorry to hear that Paul. I really do pity the people who’ve bought some of these houses. What you describe isn’t unusual and will be the tip of the iceberg. I’ve heard anecdotally that the volume housebuilders have taken the view that it’s more profitable for them to throw up shit quality houses and then cough up on remedials if and when people complain rather than build properly in the first place.
Could there be a sadder indictment of this fucking country? With the fucking execs and shareholders of said companies probably gleefully exclaiming "oooh, it's aaawfully warm this November, lovely time to be in the Seychelles".
Cunts, the lot of them.
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I had 30 minute appointments with both SafeStyle and Anglian to get a quote for a new front door. Despite my saying I was motivated solely by thermal improvement neither had much to say on the subject other than claiming to be the warmest on the market but without knowing the U value of the door. One went away to find out and phoned yesterday to say their door had a U value of 0.4. This is not possible is it given there is a large glass panel, no option for triple glazing and the composite door is mainly wood?
So I’m back to my original question, anyone know of any thermally efficient exterior door manufactures?
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their door had a U value of 0.4. This is not possible is it given there is a large glass panel, no option for triple glazing and the composite door is mainly wood?
They definitely said 0.4? Not 1.4? Latter sounds more realistic. Former is almost certainly a lie (to be a passivhaus certified component they need to be below 0.85 so can't believe Safestyle would offer those as standard).
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So I’m back to my original question, anyone know of any thermally efficient exterior door manufactures?
In our last house I fitted windows and doors from this company, which were excellent. The door u value was ~0.95 as I recall.
https://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/high-performance-windows-and-doors/
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Yeah - 0.4 is a flight of fancy and evidence that like many many window/door outfits, they simply haven't got a clue about it. Stack em high.. ship em cheap.
1.0 is the building regs target U-value for a door (either solid or < 60% glazed).
Just off the top of my head, have a look at Rehau.. Top end swiss and probably cost the earth but often see them spec'd on the higher end jobs come across.
Worth considering the diminishing returns effect though. You might be worth saving a bit of money on the door, to invest in draught proofing and insulation elsewhere.
I'd have thought a good composite door set, double glazed unit, with good draught seal wouldn't be too far wide of the mark.