UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Paul B on December 02, 2014, 01:11:49 pm
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Those recent posts on Instagram of her looking incredibly ripped are pretty impressive. I'm reading Ste Mac's book at the mo, where he talks a lot about what it means to be a 'professional climber' of an 'athlete'. Puccio looks like an athlete.
You think? I disagree.
I think when you start seeing a difference in the face then you've pushed it too far (not necessarily a bad thing for your climbing performance).
I'm not a woman but I can't think that sustaining that level of body fat percentage can be a good thing as one. Take a look at the photograph showing a plank, the definition around the serratus and the upper pectorals and then the photo of her doing an external rotation.
That isn't some kind of sexist "what women should look like" remark either. I genuinely think it's unhealthy. Frustratingly it works so well.
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Those recent posts on Instagram of her looking incredibly ripped are pretty impressive. I'm reading Ste Mac's book at the mo, where he talks a lot about what it means to be a 'professional climber' of an 'athlete'. Puccio looks like an athlete.
I'm not a woman
God I wish you were :shag:
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Those recent posts on Instagram of her looking incredibly ripped are pretty impressive. I'm reading Ste Mac's book at the mo, where he talks a lot about what it means to be a 'professional climber' of an 'athlete'. Puccio looks like an athlete.
You think? I disagree.
I think when you start seeing a difference in the face then you've pushed it too far (not necessarily a bad thing for your climbing performance).
I'm not a woman but I can't think that sustaining that level of body fat percentage can be a good thing as one. Take a look at the photograph showing a plank, the definition around the serratus and the upper pectorals and then the photo of her doing an external rotation.
That isn't some kind of sexist "what women should look like" remark either. I genuinely think it's unhealthy. Frustratingly it works so well.
I completely agree.
That's a very dangerous and thin line to walk.
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That isn't some kind of sexist "what women should look like" remark either. I genuinely think it's unhealthy. Frustratingly it works so well.
Are you sure? How do you feel about pro cyclists' physiques? Of course it's a thin line, but in any sport where power - weight is very important, the top athletes push as close to the line as possible to achieve their best performances. Good on her I say - it takes a lot of commitment and discipline.
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Using cyclists as an example on how to deal with performance and health issues isn't a very good point in my opinion...
:worms:
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edit: I'm staying out of this!
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Isn't this debate already going somewhere else on the forum?
Anyway it should split from here.
Stevie Haston plus accompanying Charlotte dURIF piece about anorexia in climbing
http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/anorexia-drugs-and-no-rational-control.html (http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/anorexia-drugs-and-no-rational-control.html)
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I prefer to think you can separate athleticism for the sake of performance from starvation for its own sake. But when the other side see parallels, you worry:
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/06/25/climb-every-mountain-a-metaphor-for-eating-disorders/ (http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/06/25/climb-every-mountain-a-metaphor-for-eating-disorders/)
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Using cyclists as an example on how to deal with performance and health issues isn't a very good point in my opinion...
:worms:
Yeah, was gonna post the same, not just the headline hitting drug and substance use.
The thin line these astonishing athletes tread... Quotes of "you can see there kidneys" , short life expectancy, high cardiovascular risk in later life with increased heart attack, stoke and ischimic guts rates. It's pretty much accepted the super pro roadies have shorter than the norm life expectancy.. With servere body fat depletion being part of the picture.
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I prefer to think you can separate athleticism for the sake of performance from starvation for its own sake. But when the other side see parallels, you worry:
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/06/25/climb-every-mountain-a-metaphor-for-eating-disorders/ (http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/06/25/climb-every-mountain-a-metaphor-for-eating-disorders/)
Have you actually read the article? It's tenuous pap. You could say the same about doing anything "to extreme" whether it be working 80hr weeks or shopping. The risk analogy seems like total bollocks to me, especially when high performance climbers for whom power to weight is of most relevance are boulderers and sport climbers.
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Yeah, it's nonsense, but the fact they looked in our direction is a bit worrying.
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Isn't this debate already going somewhere else on the forum?
Anyway it should split from here.
Give me a thread title or another thread to merge it with and I'll do it - I have lost confidence in my own judgement after recent cock-ups
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That blog is talking complete bollocks. Maybe it would be worth talking to a person involved in an activity before deciding on your own that it is just a way of ignoring how shitty your life is otherwise, rather than a source of joy and inspiration. Coming from a group who often claim to be the subject of assumptions over facts themselves its a tad rich.
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Although all of this is indeed repetitive, none of it is significant.
How about sticking it all in here instead? - http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=23595.0 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=23595.0)
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Although all of this is indeed repetitive, none of it is significant.
How about sticking it all in here instead? - http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=23595.0 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=23595.0)
:2thumbsup:
That thread is old (and tricky to find for a merge) so started a Part 2 version
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Are you sure? How do you feel about pro cyclists' physiques? Of course it's a thin line, but in any sport where power - weight is very important, the top athletes push as close to the line as possible to achieve their best performances. Good on her I say - it takes a lot of commitment and discipline.
I've thought about this and my answer is yes, I'm sure. However, perhaps there are just more obvious signs in women that they may be pushing the dieting thing too far.
There's also the issue of what this suggests to other people in the 'sport'. When I was young I watched videos of Ben and Jerry climbing hard and training on steep boards; this resulted in a long period of ignoring all of the time they spent on rock and pursuing training on steep boards.
The youth of today see the likes of Nedvarian hanging off bits of wood for long periods of time, and what happens? Youths of today ignore all of the other factors and go on to do pinky monos before they've climbed the Marie Rose.
If the same can be said for dieting tactics then I'd be concerned.
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The Ms blogpost makes a good point about judgments being contextualised but I couldn't take it too seriously when its central analogy was founded on ignorance. That's really amateurish. Shoddy argument doesn't impress.
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Using cyclists as an example on how to deal with performance and health issues isn't a very good point in my opinion...
:worms:
Yeah, was gonna post the same, not just the headline hitting drug and substance use.
The thin line these astonishing athletes tread... Quotes of "you can see there kidneys" , short life expectancy, high cardiovascular risk in later life with increased heart attack, stoke and ischimic guts rates. It's pretty much accepted the super pro roadies have shorter than the norm life expectancy.. With servere body fat depletion being part of the picture.
I've recently read an article in Cycling Plus which states the opposite to this in that a significant number of ex pros live longer than average.
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Using cyclists as an example on how to deal with performance and health issues isn't a very good point in my opinion...
:worms:
Yeah, was gonna post the same, not just the headline hitting drug and substance use.
The thin line these astonishing athletes tread... Quotes of "you can see there kidneys" , short life expectancy, high cardiovascular risk in later life with increased heart attack, stoke and ischimic guts rates. It's pretty much accepted the super pro roadies have shorter than the norm life expectancy.. With servere body fat depletion being part of the picture.
I've recently read an article in Cycling Plus which states the opposite to this in that a significant number of ex pros live longer than average.
Sanchis-Gomar F, Olaso-Gonzalez G, Corella D, Gomez-Cabrera MC, Vina J. (2011) Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists. Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. doi: 10.1055/s-0031-1271711. Epub 2011 May 26. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618162)
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Its different for different sports innit? Anabolic-androgenic steroids shorten life expectancy
Increased premature mortality of competitive powerlifters suspected to have used anabolic agents (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10834358)
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Nothing useful to add other than what a desperately difficult subject it is. A woman friend (I should probably be careful I don't out her) is a fantastic runner. England vest material. She was never sturdy but has gone through an impressive transformation to get there. I'm pretty sure she has an eating disorder. Likewise this pic of Wiggo scares me https://www.flickr.com/photos/slipstreamsports/3434625727/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/slipstreamsports/3434625727/) Measured by results, they're both quality athletes...
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Nothing useful to add other than what a desperately difficult subject it is. A woman friend (I should probably be careful I don't out her) is a fantastic runner. England vest material. She was never sturdy but has gone through an impressive transformation to get there. I'm pretty sure she has an eating disorder. Likewise this pic of Wiggo scares me https://www.flickr.com/photos/slipstreamsports/3434625727/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/slipstreamsports/3434625727/)
:jaw:
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Using cyclists as an example on how to deal with performance and health issues isn't a very good point in my opinion...
:worms:
Yeah, was gonna post the same, not just the headline hitting drug and substance use.
The thin line these astonishing athletes tread... Quotes of "you can see there kidneys" , short life expectancy, high cardiovascular risk in later life with increased heart attack, stoke and ischimic guts rates. It's pretty much accepted the super pro roadies have shorter than the norm life expectancy.. With servere body fat depletion being part of the picture.
I've recently read an article in Cycling Plus which states the opposite to this in that a significant number of ex pros live longer than average.
Sanchis-Gomar F, Olaso-Gonzalez G, Corella D, Gomez-Cabrera MC, Vina J. (2011) Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists. Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. doi: 10.1055/s-0031-1271711. Epub 2011 May 26. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618162)
Nice one. I'll tuck into that.
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I'm not the best person to make this argument but I'll try... It's seems to me that people on here either don't want to admit or are in denial that there is a problem with weight in climbing.
That blog comparing extreme mountaineering to easting disorders is just a distraction from the more damning truth that many climbers do have eating disorders.
You don't have to go far to hear climbers talking about weight-loss, weekly weigh-ins, not eating cake, shedding pounds for the project.
These things are not in themselves unhealthy, and in fact for the average person that list above might be the healthy option. Which is the trick behind the lie. Things that are considered healthy and normal can be pushed to the extreme and in this way climbers convince themselves that they are still being healthy.
Many commonly conceived as healthy activities within the climbing community would not be considered as such by outsiders.
Going out all day climbing and not eating. Not healthy.
Someone above mentions copying your heroes. Well Jerry and Ben surviving on 1500 Cal a day. also not ideal.
Starving and dehydrating before a big redpoint. Obvious that one I think.
I remember meeting a group of friends i'd not seen for a while at a crag, they'd all improved a lot recently (7a to 7c). They also now looked decidedly unhealthy; pale skulls, nestled within oversized puffer jackets atop twiglet legs. Am I the only person who sees this at the crags? or are we just not talking about it?
I agree with points made by Haston and Durriff that eating disorders are a problem in climbing and that the lack or media attention paid to it is letting us down. We should be looking out for each other.
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Too true.
I'm waiting for my usual climbing partner to come over for a session, so that I can finally talk with him about his weight obsession. 6 kg lost since summer, pushed his grade up by a letter, but that's a complete fake.
Also, he's less smiley and can only talk about climbing, while before our conversation was an added bonus to every trip or session.
We are all puzzled by his change, his wife is puzzled, his brother also...
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All I've taken from this thread is that I need to diet harder.
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Almost totally unqualified to pass comment, being that I'm both light and well-nourished, so I will.
Is this really that widespread an issue relative to the deleterious effects of other sports/hobbies?
Rugby, football etc - loads of broken bones and legions of 40-somethings with chronically knackered knees, hips, backs, shoulders etc. etc.
Extreme Skiing - same
Mountain biking - hmmm... the most eager-to-injure-themselves people I know are mountain bikers.
Sedentary fat fucks with a typical western diet- riskier than a big-mountain skiing prop forward.
Am I missing a vineyard of gossip about lots of keen climbers suffering with diseases resultant of malnourishment?
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You're all just a bunch of tubby naysayers.
The problem is many (if not all) aspects of climbing can have negative effects on some component of health. From acute smash-yourself-to-bits or pop-connective-tissue type injuries, to chronic overuse and arthritis, to the very real objective dangers of alpine, trad and general soloing shenanigans.
On paper, climbing offers many ways to shorten life expectancy. I actually admire those with the commitment to shed pounds just to get up a route as much as I admire the more directly risky act of (free) soloing big walls. On the other hand I recognise they're both crazy in their own ways: both are potentially life shortening, and both probably more often than not come with some attached psychological issues.
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I just wanna be loved.
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We are all puzzled by his change, his wife is puzzled, his brother also...
Best of luck hope it goes well.
This thread has focussed on reduced life expectancy as the effect of easting disorders. But there are many immediate ones. Depression (at never being light enough), poor self-esteem(at never looking thin enough!), grumpiness (i'm grumpy when hungry), social anxiety (think having to eat in social situations). The down side of these is the effect they can have on relationships , work, play and climbing.
1. Sedentary fat fucks with a typical western diet- riskier than a big-mountain skiing prop forward.
2. Am I missing a vineyard of gossip about lots of keen climbers suffering with diseases resultant of malnourishment?
1. This is the starving children in Africa argument. Not relevant
2. Your ignorance may stem from the malnourished look becoming the norm in climbing. This is similar to the extreme eating habits being normalised argument I made above - it becomes a way to justify being a bit too skinny.
On the other hand I recognise they're both crazy in their own ways: both are potentially life shortening, and both probably more often than not come with some attached psychological issues.
This I think partly the Africa argument again. This thread is about eating disorders not risky climbing being bad for your health. Does some climbers doing one of these somehow justify the other?
There are two points relating to eating disorders that I often ponder... perhaps someone could comment.
1. The best climbers these days tend to look well nourished. Malc said he climbed better when he'd stopped trying to stay skinny. But the skeleton climb hard way of thinking is still common at the crag.
2. How many times can the losing weight trick work? Once you've lost weight you'll get worse if you put it back on so you need to keep thin. And the next step up can only come from loosing more weight right? By this logic it only works once. John Dunne had a different approach but it's the constant maintaining of a low weight that I see as a problem.
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With respect, you're obfuscating the obvious parallels between one unhealthy aspect of the sport and another. These can and should be drawn; they are relevant to the debate.
I didn't limit my argument to obviously risky aspects of the sport - all the usual chronic overuse issues fall in the unhealthy camp.
On the psychological side, what really justifies separating the neurological correlates of eating disorders with the depression, narcissism, insecurity, selfishness and alexithymia that pervades all aspects of society and the climbing community?
I'm not sure its actually an issue other than anecdotally (as a few top climbers have been open about their own battles). By that I mean more prevalent in the general and elite climbing population above societal background levels. Particularly once you account for the obvious selection effects of skinnier folk sticking at climbing because they tend to be better at it.
Also, did you see the Legends Only competition? Modern top climbers are skinny fucks, or at the very least have very low body fat. Yes, unhealthy amounts, but I would wager that each one of them will be in the top quartile of the life expectancy distribution once they pop their respective clogs.
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:o I have just read this thread and I'm so shocked by peoples obstinate denial of what is a sadly real, yet totally unnecessary aspect of the climbing community!!
Maybe part of the reason that people are in denial, is that people who struggle with eating disorders can be very good at hiding their problems. This in itself is incredibly sad, as people end up becoming introverted, and this in turn can lead to many of the social ramifications that scottygillery described.
Danny..... does Jan Hojer really look like he has starved himself?!
Also Danny, how can you describe a problem other than anecdotally?! I don't expect a graph with everyone's BMI plotted. As further anecdotal evidence I know several people who have been affected by eating disorders and it's a horrible thing to have to go through.
Nibile - good luck chatting to your friend :)
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it's a horrible thing to have to go through.
It is, believe me.
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I can only think of a couple of people in the peak scene who I'd think of as probably having an eating disorder? Maybe another couple on the boarderline. I'm unconvinced that it's that prevalent. There's a few top climbers who look unhealthily skinny, especially a few of the girls, but not shit loads.
When that Durif thing came out I had a conversation with Stu about the drugs parallel (my initial gut feeling being that it's strange to ban drugs in sport at all; I place no weight on the 'fairness' argument since sport is inherently unfair), in which I think he convinced me that banning drugs and 'banning' being unhealthily light should be viewed as worthwhile in a 'saving athletes from themselves' kind of way. Not sure what my point is here, just a topical anecdote.
2. How many times can the losing weight trick work? Once you've lost weight you'll get worse if you put it back on so you need to keep thin. And the next step up can only come from loosing more weight right? By this logic it only works once. John Dunne had a different approach but it's the constant maintaining of a low weight that I see as a problem.
I just cycle between heavy mode and light mode, so do most people I know.. works fine so long as you don't mind having periods where you're not quite as on it as you'd like, e.g. winter bouldering season for a sport climber
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Maybe part of the reason that people are in denial, is that people who struggle with eating disorders can be very good at hiding their problems.
An occasional climbing partner in times past spent time in hospital with anorexia. Male, didn't look abnormal in a climbing context. I didn't have a clue.
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I'm not sure its actually an issue other than anecdotally (as a few top climbers have been open about their own battles). By that I mean more prevalent in the general and elite climbing population above societal background levels. Particularly once you account for the obvious selection effects of skinnier folk sticking at climbing because they tend to be better at it.
Population prevalnce in different "general populations" are provided by...
Eating Disorders and Obesity: A Comprehensive Handbook : Chapter 41 Distribution of Eating Disorders (http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=rNbdAGVNIh0C&oi=fnd&pg=PA233&dq=eating+disorder+rates&ots=IE5C3mcfK2&sig=UoLx5tAG_FK84E3hvF0WdsF11vk#v=onepage&q=eating%20disorder%20rates&f=false)
More recently in 2012...
Smink, Frédérique RE, Daphne van Hoeken, and Hans W. Hoek. "Epidemiology of eating disorders: incidence, prevalence and mortality rates." Current psychiatry reports 14.4 (2012): 406-414. (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11920-012-0282-y#page-1)
Can't find anything anywhere focusing on climbing, but I doubt rates are much different from the general population either.
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did you see the Legends Only competition? Modern top climbers are skinny fucks, or at the very least have very low body fat.
Surely very few top athletes in any sport (except powerlifting) have double digit bodyfat percentages?
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I'm a mild weight yo yoer . I do a 3 weeks diet once a year after winter just to shed the winter blubber. I'm lucky in that it doesn't go back on that quick. When I am heavier I just accept that I'm not going to be as good and my form goes up and down regardless of weight anyway. Climbing was always going to end up with this problem. The simple fact is the lighter you are the easier it is! And so there are always going to be people who take it to the extremes, I don't see what you can do about that. Some will have a genuine mental illness and some are just stupid. I wouldn't want to look disgusting to climb a grade or two harder. Maybe in the future we'll have weight categories for comps like in boxing. Everyone who has done my lifetime climbing goal was at least a stone and a half lighter than me. It's not a level playing field but that's life!
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Chris your weight is really no excuse for still not having done Grooved Arete
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Tryfans high and scary though...
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:o I have just read this thread and I'm so shocked by peoples obstinate denial of what is a sadly real, yet totally unnecessary aspect of the climbing community!!
Maybe part of the reason that people are in denial, is that people who struggle with eating disorders XYZ can be very good at hiding their problems. This in itself is incredibly sad, as people end up becoming introverted, and this in turn can lead to many of the social ramifications that scottygillery described.
That paragraph could be used to describe pretty much the whole spectrum of human mental suffering from Anxiety to Zog Syndrome. It doesn't mean people are in denial. All it illustrates is begging a question.
(I made up Zog Syndrome, although I'm sure it's a problem for someone somewhere).
Also Danny, how can you describe a problem other than anecdotally?! I don't expect a graph with everyone's BMI plotted. As further anecdotal evidence I know several people who have been affected by eating disorders and it's a horrible thing to have to go through.
Because who needs facts when you've got anecdotes.
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Leaving aside the bodybuilding pics, I found this article a very sobering read.
http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage (http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage)
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Lightness doesn't always equal strong fingers though. Look at Steve 'I'm weak as piss' Mcclure. He's lucky he's got tenacity and strong feet ;)
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Must be why he steers clear of crimpy routes...
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Danny..... does Jan Hojer really look like he has starved himself?!
Also Danny, how can you describe a problem other than anecdotally?! I don't expect a graph with everyone's BMI plotted. As further anecdotal evidence I know several people who have been affected by eating disorders and it's a horrible thing to have to go through.
I would not at all be surprised if Jan was less the 5 % body fat, and he too had been dieting for the previous world cup season.
I think slackers has very quickly given you a decent baseline for a more objective consideration. I'm afraid nothing less than a graph will do if you're going to make sweeping claims of prevalence based on what your mate or family member went through, although the climbing specific info isn't conveniently knocking about. And BMI isn't really going to help either, because of the aforementioned selection effects climbers will be skinnier on average.
So, anecdotally, we have the selection effects of climbers being skinnier than average, this is surely pronounced in the climbing elite who know that weight and performance are linked to some degree, and exploit this cyclically. Would you not even be open to the possibility, then, that some proportion of these perceived eating disorders are in fact just a buck of skinny fucks trying to climb as hard as possible?
Note that we've already had a bunch of observations along the lines of so and so has skinny legs, drawn eyes, is miserable etc.
All of this may be true, and these individuals may have an eating disorder, but I could name many climbers and non climbers alike who fit these descriptors and also eat like merry horses.
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Must be why he steers clear of crimpy routes...
Imagine what he could do if he wasn't so weak.
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Must be why he steers clear of crimpy routes...
Imagine what he could do if he wasn't so weak.
Imagine what he could do if he ever tied his shoelaces.
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Surely very few top athletes in any sport (except powerlifting) have double digit bodyfat percentages?
<pedant>
Sumo
</pedant>
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Saying that anecdotes don't count is all well and good but as you concede, there's no data here anyway so what exactly are we left with? I wouldn't necessarily say that climbing has a particular problem with eating disorders (compared to similar sports) but I know plenty of female climbers who have serious problems with their relationship with food and their bodies. So many women have problems with this anyway as a result of unrealistic portrayal of women in the media (that's a whole separate issue) that if they're pushing themselves in a sport where power to weight ratio is critical, it just provides another motivation to not eat with often fairly unpleasant consequences. We're not talking about controlled eating of smaller amounts of food here, we're talking about eating one apple a day and that kind of misery. Of course, anyone looking at that from the outside knows that that isn't conducive to good recovery or long-term performance but you're forgetting that eating disorders are completely irrational.
I think you guys who are arguing with Ellie here are pretty ignorant of the difference between men and women here. Last time I looked, the scientific consensus was that men can go about as low as physically possible without any serious harm (at least in the medium term). Unfortunately, women by virtue of naturally having a higher bodyfat percentage to begin with have most to gain by aggressively reducing this. But some pretty nasty things start to happen when women go into the same sort of single-figure percentages that men can happily exist at. Probably the closest sport to climbing in terms of demanding maximal power to weight with a focus on upper-body is gymnastics and women's gymnastics is a veritable car-crash for eating disorders: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/gymnasts.htm (http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/gymnasts.htm) (there is tons of literature out there for those interested, note the number of legendary female gymnasts who have subsequently admitted to eating disorders).
A lot of the responses so far are confusing dieting and eating disorders. I think this quote from the link above nicely summarizes the difference:
Some male athletes do use extreme methods for losing weight, but an important difference exists between these and the self-starvation strategies of anorexics. For instance, a wrestler's perception of his body is not distorted and when he is not competing, he can regain the weight with ease.
I don't think that denying that this happens in our sport is very productive, I don't think climbing is as bad as gymnastics or particularly different to other power to weight focused sports but I definitely have met people through climbing whose perceived need to be light to climb their best was stoking an eating disorder which was jeopardizing their general health. And there's still plenty of others who battle those kind of thoughts every time they sit down to eat. I don't have a solution to propose but I think we should be aware. I suspect that this is a big problem in lead competitions but as this is a relatively new sport we're not really hearing about it yet, if you look at the gymnasts it often takes a long time before people feel able to talk about it.
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Alistair, I would largely agree with most of what you're saying. Eating disorders are surely more prevalent in the elite than in the general climbing population, and more prevalent in females than males (there must be loads of data on this). My point is that these trends will likely square well with equivalent groups elsewhere in society, i.e. that, as you say, it isn't a particular problem in climbing above background equivalents.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem at all, just that anecdotes are (still) not overly helpful in pinning down its magnitude.
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Are people saying that people come in to climbing, get pretty good then somehow end up with an eating disorder due to trying to get better.
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I think you guys who are arguing with Ellie here are pretty ignorant of the difference between men and women here. Last time I looked, the scientific consensus was that men can go about as low as physically possible without any serious harm (at least in the medium term). Unfortunately, women by virtue of naturally having a higher bodyfat percentage to begin with have most to gain by aggressively reducing this. But some pretty nasty things start to happen when women go into the same sort of single-figure percentages that men can happily exist at.
What? Using the logic that people who are unconvinced by the argument must simply be ignorant (of quite widely-known facts) doesn't help further your argument. You're just begging the question by starting out assuming there definitely is a problem and that anyone who disagrees must be wrong hence they must be ignorant of something-or-other.
Me being unconvinced about whether climbing suffers an increased incidence of eating disorders relative to general population doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of ^ those facts ^ at all. I'm well-read, take an interest in lots of things around me, know a lot of climbers and I'm well aware of the differences in safe body fat percentages and the figures you quote. I just don't buy the argument, because there isn't any convincing proof for it.
If they must then people can state the eye-itchingly obvious - that eating disorders can be horrible to go through and that more women than men experience them. This isn't news, and it's about as useful in trying to work out iof there is a significant problem particlaur to climbing as saying, say, domestic abuse can be horrible. It's the same for climbers or non-climbers.
If someone came up with some unbiased data - instead of personal feelings based on looking at photos of people and gym gossip - that showed climbers were at significantly higher risk of having eating disorders over general population then I'd be open to changing my mind.
edit: I definitely have met people through climbing whose perceived need to be light to climb their best was stoking an eating disorder which was jeopardizing their general health. And there's still plenty of others who battle those kind of thoughts every time they sit down to eat.
This is my (undoubtedly biased) overall perception of climbing in relation to eating disorders. It is also my perception of the general population.
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I would be so bold as to suggest that those climbers who develop an eating disorder might have developed some other serious psychological issue if they had not become a climber. As the issues that can lead to eating disorders, generally have little to do with losing weight.
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Here are two highly cited studies with partially conflicting findings:
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15692312 (http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15692312)
http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2004/01000/Prevalence_of_Eating_Disorders_in_Elite_Athletes.5.aspx (http://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2004/01000/Prevalence_of_Eating_Disorders_in_Elite_Athletes.5.aspx)
I've only read the abstracts so can't comment on the particulars.
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as a counterpoint to all of this, growing up with climbing (from 15) has made me massively more comfortable with my body: going from being the weedy, picked last in gym kid to being the slightly less weedy and more muscular one made all the difference and wouldnt have happened without climbing. sure im not the only one that would be pretttttty sedentary without climbing and that has to count for something...
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Similar story for me: at fifteen I was a weedy teacher's pet, at twenty five I had led E3, had a brown belt at karate and a six-pack.
(The six pack seems to have gone missing somewhere along the way though :shrug:)
More anecdotal "evidence": I can think offhand of about half a dozen young ladies I see regularly at local climbing walls who are national-or-above level bouldering competitors, covering the range from just about made the national junior squad to number 12 in the world rankings (Monika Retschy). Not one of them looks strikingly thin or unhealthy.
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what Webbo said
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healthy thread. oft avoided discussion. believe me you are not first generation to consider the gains and pitfalls. keep on discussing... one part of my recent renaissance is I'm lighter... not thin, not ripped... just more effective.. difficult..
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what Webbo said
Amen.
as a counterpoint to all of this, growing up with climbing (from 15) has made me massively more comfortable with my body: going from being the weedy, picked last in gym kid to being the slightly less weedy and more muscular one made all the difference and wouldnt have happened without climbing. sure im not the only one that would be pretttttty sedentary without climbing and that has to count for something...
I was the quintessential 9 stone weakling when I started climbing seriously in the early '80s.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/06/92683902193b1e39aaf8245a5feaf852.jpg)
By the time I was 20...
Some long forgotten (doubtless down-graded) Ardeche 8a..
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/06/e98a4adccc434ec4c6901f708ea6b210.jpg)
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What do all these before and after shots count for? Saying I was a weedy kid at school and now kick chalk in peoples faces has nothing to do with the people out there starving themselves for numbers. That's what we're talking about not climbing made me into Arnold. If the face turns gaunt they're fucked
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Usual effective drole.. No dis intended.. What's your point?
You outline the issue, yet fail to contribute.. In terms that my sad, old brain understands..
I'm sure you have much to add to this...
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What do all these before and after shots count for? Saying I was a weedy kid at school and now kick chalk in peoples faces has nothing to do with the people out there starving themselves for numbers. That's what we're talking about not climbing made me into Arnold. If the face turns gaunt they're fucked
Because it's hard to say who is unhealthily skinny, starving/anorexic or just naturally slender.
And no, you can't tell from looking.
I was a stick insect at 14 and at 21, and looked anorexic, but I ate like a horse.
One of the lads that works for me, started climbing a year ago and he's lost 5 1/2 stone in that time. Without the slightest hint of dieting, I watch him shovelling curry in his gob every day in the staff room, enough to feed half of Mumbai! That would look well dodgy, if I hadn't watched him work it off.
I suspect Webbo is right, that's my point.
I wasn't built like Arnold. I was skinny, wiry and around 73/74kg at 183cm tall.
I was often told I needed to eat more by various base Docs.
The kind of body you wind up with when training hard at route climbing is going to be a pretty slender one. More recently, as Bouldering has surged in popularity, a heavier, more powerful build is becoming the norm; but it's still pretty slender compared to other sports.
And muscle development requires nutrition, surely?
Does every good climber's breath stink of Pear Drops?
Are we suggesting all the top climbers are deep into an orgy of Catabolysis?
Of course some are beyond the boundary, I just can't see it as more than in any other sport, or even the general population.
Edit.
People didn't talk much about BMI in those days (at least not in my hearing), but I was diving a lot with work and struggled with being extremely Negatively buoyant, which has to have indicated a pretty low body fat %?
But I started each day with a fry up and lived on standard Navy issue stodge.
With pudding.
And snacks.
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And Webbo suspects he's right because he might not know a lot but he has worked in mental health for 28 years. So even he might have picked the odd bit of psycho babble up.
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If the face turns gaunt they're fucked
Nope. I had a good mate at college who was a decent road cyclist. He used face gauntness as a gauge of whether he was getting towards race fit or not, and when his important races of the season were over he un-gaunted. Loads of athletes in loads of sports do this; it doesn't mean they're all in danger of anorexia.
(Not that I would want to look like Sachi Amma, but most top climbers don't look like Sachi Amma either)
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I'm afraid I can't give figures that pin-down the extent (or non-extent) of eating disorders in climbing. I've not made an attempt to do so merely pointed out that it is a problem I've experienced and (as Abarro the 81st has also mentioned) can be observed within the climbing scene. For me this alone is enough to justify a discussion on the impact that this problem can have on people within climbing and perhaps what could be done to highlight the issue and what can be done to improve the situation. I think it is worth doing this because climbing is seen as a community and we should look out for each other.
I've taken from the links you posted that the prevalence of eating disorders in climbing, which I’d class as a "leanness" and "antigravitation" sport, is higher than in the general populous (at least in the one article) and other sports (in both articles). I’ve read around a few papers now and they all seem to suggest that prevalance is above normal for leanness sports. I have no reason to believe climbing is any different. Further, I'm aware that in 2012 and 2014 Isa Schoffl (who I gather is seen as a "scientific" expert on climbing matters) gave talks at the BMC climbing injury symposium on the higher than normal occurrence of anorexia in junior climbers and what they had done to attempt to address this issue. Which would seem to me to suggest that it is a recognised issue. That's the best I can provide.
I feel I should clear up some earlier confusion regarding anecdotal evidence. The above studies provide *empirical* evidence on prevalence of eating disorders. There are many more studies that examine the effects, attitudes, diagnoses, treatment, etc of people with eating disorders in sport. These studies use *anecdotal* evidence. When we talk about the impact eating disorders can have on athletes we can only use anecdotal evidence.
Webbo, are you trying to say that someone with a problem is a lost cause?
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Pretty sure that wasn't implied in Webbo's post?
He only said eating disorders tend to be caused by things other than a desire to lose weight.
For the Docs. Does starving yourself, to reach a specific goal, constitute an eating disorder? Is a low BMI not just a consequence of hard training?
I just had a trawl through some Instagram accounts of top climbers, from around the world and I didn't notice much in the way of "Gaunt" in the faces.
Even Alex P, who posted a veiny, ripped, pumped selfie this morning looked pretty healthy around the face...
Why do people believe there to be an excess of eating disorders in climbing? There haven't even been any concrete/specific anecdotes in this thread and where number and research have been provided (even though non specific to climbing) they don't support the hypothesis.
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Do you want names?
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Do you want names?
No.
Of course not.
But how many names do you have?
And is it really a huge proportion of competitive climbers?
That's the large number of people who climb competitively or obsessively, not just the IFSC cast list.
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See my post above. I can't give numbers. And that's not the point IMHO.
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That's pretty much it, Scotty. Most of what you're saying I agree with - in essence, that climbing is probably par for the course as far as eating disorders in equivalent pursuits go remains my point. I have to say though, I wouldn't take the merits of studies like these on abstracts alone. Bearing in mind the modern tendency to pathologize relatively normal behaviour its clear that plenty could be shoehorned in to the 'ED' category, and of course the fact we're dealing with self reporting etc. As for anecdotal evidence, I'm sure it has its place (somewhere), but just because science peeps sometimes present this kind of thing as 'evidence' doesn't mean that I'm going to defer all scepticism and nod my head. At best, anecdotes can help flesh out certain arguments, at worst they're downright dangerous.
But I digress, webbos point is perhaps the most important one to bear in mind. Think of it in terms of the different prevalences of EDs in the different subsets of elite pursuit. Why these differences? Is it something particular about climbing, or the lackadaisical attitudes in the media and culture surrounding it? I don't think this is strictly the case, as you kind of point out too.
No, its really just a matter of being in a sport that favours those skinny fucks in the first place, and then throwing a bit of competition into the mix. Highly strung, depressive, temperamental, driven, narcissistic, egotistical are all words that you might associate with many at the top of many a pile. It just so happens that in climbing being skinny is a pre filter to all of this.
I mean, its like saying there's a worrying prevalence of moobs in Sumo. It just kinda goes with the territory.
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I can think of plenty of people......but I'm sure that's not the point scottygillery is raising. I think you only need to open your eyes to realise it's a problem and has been so for many years. It does go in and out of fashion
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Well that's me convinced
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
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How was I trying to convince you? I don't remember caring about what you think
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You should watch that not being able to remember stuff, could be a sign of malnourishment. You being a climber an all that - very common I hear...
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Even Alex P, who posted a veiny, ripped, pumped selfie this morning looked pretty healthy around the face...
Yeah I was looking at that also and thinking the same ... partly because of this thread and partly because of watching "project Mina" yesterday (recommended ...), which is mostly about the pressure of comps. All I read into AP's current look is a strong desire to win.
Also saw that pic of alex. Wow. Jessica Ennis step aside them some impressive abs! Sounds like she's been doing some hardcore workouts and that she'll look a little ripped in the selfies at the end of them.
What I'd like to think is that someone (male or female) who is working hard to push their grade but they've read this thread and perhaps an article in a magazine or on the internet and they're able to check themselves when their eating habits become a little extreme. It could be their friend that does the reading and as a result feels empowered to offer some support. A tricky business but a step in the right direction.
Before I post want to clarify I'm not trying to suggest Alex has an eating disorder.
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Friends who've seen her recently have said she doesn't look healthy.
From that the camp that thinks there's no problem can take on board that she's eating properly and crushing everything due to her excellent training regime. While the other camp can try to feed her. Ferrero rochers used to be her fave but doesnt look like she's seen them for a while.
The main point of the above is that in the flesh she doesn't look healthy while the camera suggests she does! According to others
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Even Alex P, who posted a veiny, ripped, pumped selfie this morning looked pretty healthy around the face...
I disagree. Compare the face with her other pics on her profile.
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That pic is wrong on so many aspects.
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Fair enough, it's not as if I know her.
However, does taking a selfie and publicly stating "Hey, I look good and I'm proud of my body/achievements" speak of Body dysmorphia?
Overtraining is not the same as an ED, surely?
Personally, I'm not trying to say that there is no problem; only that the assertion that it is endemic, is probably false and certainly unproven (at least within this thread).
So, should an individual in fact be suffering from an ED, this alone does not prove an all pervasive unhealthy attitude throughout the sport.
The purpose of the photos earlier was to illustrate that it was perfectly possible to exhibit some of the visual cues for such a disorder, both before and after beginning to train seriously; without any such thing existing.
People used to ask if I'd picked up my muscles in a secondhand shop, because of the way they sat on my bones. I used to have to get my wetsuits made, because off the peg suits that fitted my upper body flapped around my legs like a circus tent.
And yet, I could squat my own body weight plus some, in the gym and run the Jungle at CTCRM and all the rest.
Sure, if you feel someone you know is heading down a dark road, get involved!
IMHO, an Ectomorph, who starts building muscle, doesn't turn into a Mesomorph, they turn into a slightly odd looking skin, bone and muscle beast; commonly known as wiry and not always considered to be desperately unhealthy of mentally ill.
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Ste Mac and Adam Ondra don't look healthy.
Is it just me, or do photos of shredded or gaunty women tend to inspire this sort of commentary more than male equivalents? You'd have to argue hard to convince me that societal norms haven't seriously skewed perceptions of what is 'acceptable' in the male and female forms, regardless of the actual disparity in health risks that come with low weight.
I'm being purposefully flippant here, but:
Some 8c gets a FFA: time to debate the grade
...is analogous to:
Women get shredded: time to debate EDs.
Maybe neither of these things are particularly true, but sometimes I get the impression that they are.
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Women get shredded: time to debate EDs.
Women genetically have a higer body fat percentage than men. That's why it's more strange to see a particularly ripped woman.
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Does starving yourself, to reach a specific goal, constitute an eating disorder?
I'm not a doctor, but obviously not. Bulimia and anorexia are mental illnesses, both with a ~1/25 mortality rate IIRC.
Starvation dieting in and of itself is 'merely' disordered and unhealthy eating.
Illnesses and dependencies intertwine physical and psychological elements so the rub is that extreme dieting in the absence of a psychological disorder can pave the way the way for that disorder to develop just as a psychological need for a sensation of control can pave the way for an eating disorder as a mechanism to achieve it. So extreme dieting can become psychologically as well as physically dangerous.
Especially problematical in food deprivation is the deterioration in cognitive function which becomes more marked as bodyweight drops. As anorexia takes hold the capacity to reason properly starts to disappear, returning with weight gain.
I can't find the reference text to quote figures but I believe sub 60% normal weight is a tipping point. Anorexia exhibits similarly powerful mechanisms of dependency to drugs- the physical effects change the way the brain works, why wouldn't it?
Bulimia is equally hazardous to health (same morbidity IIRC) , just a different manifestation of the same set, with somewhatdifferent physical hazards. The two can morph into each other.
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Women get shredded: time to debate EDs.
Women genetically have a higer body fat percentage than men. That's why it's more strange to see a particularly ripped woman.
I know. What I'm saying is that I don't think you can disentangle that from the mess that is societal (as opposed to strictly physiological) norms when you make a (subjective) judgement about the health of a woman based on her outward appearance.
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Webbo, are you trying to say that someone with a problem is a lost cause?
No.
I was trying to get the point across that a climber who develops an eating disorder, would if they were not a climber. Probably still have some marked psychological issues.
For example Gazza would probably had issues even if had not been a Professional footballer, in fact I heard he had Bulimia as a young man.
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Women get shredded: time to debate EDs.
Women genetically have a higer body fat percentage than men. That's why it's more strange to see a particularly ripped woman.
I know. What I'm saying is that I don't think you can disentangle that from the mess that is societal (as opposed to strictly physiological) norms when you make a (subjective) judgement about the health of a woman based on her outward appearance.
I'm not implying that shredded women have ED.
I just told you why people think that they do. Seeing a girl with a six pack is a very rare thing, so when it happens people ask themselves questions, like they do when they see something unusual.
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That pic is wrong on so many aspects.
Good to hear it. Given the above I had presumed otherwise. Apologies.
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No need for apologies.
In my reply to your post I was speaking in general terms about what the general perception of women's fat levels can be, and why, in my opinion.
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i will add my 2 pennies worth of opinion.
a massive amount of climbers you see are painfully thin.
id personally drop a few grades and look like a normal bloke as opposed to gawky 15 year old
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Can I add, as middle aged git I dropped 7kg this year. Have started to train on my board again... And have really hit the free weights ( lat pull downs 30to 50kg, chest press 29 kg to 38), 12 rep max.. BUT the weights have given me at least 50% of this weight loss.. Whilst really banging a high protien diet.. Much more relevant is I have gone from 5 pull ups to repeated reps of 12, with a 2.5 kg weight belt.
And I'm now back at solid grit 7a.
What does this mean? Fuck knows.
But shocking your body with new training methods is well know way to reward.
Just keep it varied...
And don't get fixated on weight. I'm gradually drifting up on the scales... But I'm improving my power t weight ability.
I've lost interest in my weight, I'm focused on a one armer... I'm nearly there!
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I have gone from 5 pull ups to repeated reps of 12, with a 2.5 kg weight belt. ( :weakbench:)
And I'm now back at solid grit 7a.
What does this mean?
That being good at pull ups doesn't make you good at climbing :tease: Sorry, couldn't resist. :off:
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I have gone from 5 pull ups to repeated reps of 12, with a 2.5 kg weight belt.
What does this mean?
that you lost 2.5kg too much
it's OK though - Christmas is here to help with that
that lat pull-down figure seems odd against your pull up ability (I don't actually know what I'm talking about)
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I have gone from 5 pull ups to repeated reps of 12, with a 2.5 kg weight belt. ( :weakbench:)
And I'm now back at solid grit 7a.
What does this mean?
That being good at pull ups doesn't make you good at climbing :tease: Sorry, couldn't resist. :off:
Yup solid grit 7a is pretty good, and 12 pull-ups is fuck all for sub 70kg!
But LOL @ Lagers, exactly what I was thinking.
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Yeah. I hear in the pull ups for climbing. When I was red pointing 8a I could only do about 4.
Good measure of overall power to weight though.
Will b useful for the tough mudder events of 2015 for sure
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I'm in a similar situation to fatdoc, having steadily lost 1lb/week for the last 15 weeks.
In order to achieve this my body must have been running with a calorie deficit, assuming that I am now at a "good weight" what should i use to offset set this deficit calorie-wise and when is the best time of the day/week to consume them?
I am guessing the beer/wine/chocolate/sugar items that I dropped are not what I should be resuming if I want to improve my climbing :)
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I am not a dietitian. However ...
Take a look at what you are now eating. Does it even out to resemble sensible healthy guidelines such as:
* palm sized portion of protein
* fist-sized portion of veg
* cupped hand of carbs
* couple of thumbs of fat
in 3/4 meals per day?
(guidelines are very vague suggestion only, academics have punch ups over exact ratios)
If you are getting roughly the right amount of protein fat and carbs I'd slow increase (like 100 calories/week) your intake over time.
Prefer whole foods. If you do not currently feel satiated make the increase come preferentially from veg and protein.
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Yeah, pretty much evens out as a "normal" diet, cereal in the morning, snack sized hot meal at lunch eg chicken and rice, then full meal in the evening.
Currently can feel a bit hungry mid morning, but generally feel fine through the day and normally only when bored to I feel the need to snack.
Don't want to really lose any more weight, just want to maintain where I am
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Best advice I've got is to explore a new faddy diet but ignore anything faddy about it - i.e. the Paleo diet but ignore the eating lots of red meat and 'avoiding anything processed at all' part. That way you get to try cooking really nice recipies with loads of healthy veg (sweet potatoes and broccoli are my fave), and by virtue of being loosely aligned to a 'healthy ideal' you tend to eat less refined sugar and processed crap but don't feel too bad about it when you do err.
edit: in other words, explore tasty recipies!
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edit: in other words, explore tasty recipies!
I find french style food tasty, and I'm pretty sure there's very little healthy about the ones I like. Loads of butter and various forms of rich fat.... :shrug:
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Just made a fish pie, with loads of tasty healthy fish, now swathed in a classic French white sauce.. 50g butter/50g flour to each pint of milk, that was used to poach the smoked haddock in.. With added two teaspoons of mustard and a glass of white wine...
Oh, amd it's capped with roughly mashed potatoes.
Steamed carrots ( and peas in the pie) on the side for veggies. This issue isn't really the food, but the fact it rates SOOO darn good I know I'll need to be restrained not east enough where breathing becomes inhibited.
Portion sizes, my downfall.
I'll bust out some freeweights to justify the meal first.
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That only qualifies as French food if you cook the peas in butter, sugar and salt. Steaming FFS.
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Once steamed, light sauté in butter with Thyme and salt. Sugar not needed, they were those little sweet ones.
It was ace. I only had one portion. Got some left for another day :D
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Those recent posts on Instagram of her looking incredibly ripped are pretty impressive. I'm reading Ste Mac's book at the mo, where he talks a lot about what it means to be a 'professional climber' of an 'athlete'. Puccio looks like an athlete.
You think? I disagree.
I think when you start seeing a difference in the face then you've pushed it too far (not necessarily a bad thing for your climbing performance).
I'm not a woman but I can't think that sustaining that level of body fat percentage can be a good thing as one. Take a look at the photograph showing a plank, the definition around the serratus and the upper pectorals and then the photo of her doing an external rotation.
That isn't some kind of sexist "what women should look like" remark either. I genuinely think it's unhealthy. Frustratingly it works so well.
saw a vid of pooch doing one arm frenchies on FB and it made me think of this thread :(
https://www.facebook.com/# (https://www.facebook.com/#)!/pages/Alex-Puccio/116408721751605?fref=nf
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link broke, dunno why, maybe this one'll work...
FB vid (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alex-Puccio/116408721751605?fref=ts#!/video.php?v=834232093302594)
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She looks like Wolfgang
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I thnk that whoever is coaching her, is either an incompetent, an idiot, or both.
You can't undergo such massive changes in body composition without going for a rebound and without great risks for overall health. You can't mess with metabolism.
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http://teamof2climbing.com/ (http://teamof2climbing.com/)
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I thnk that whoever is coaching her, is either an incompetent, an idiot, or both.
You can't undergo such massive changes in body composition without going for a rebound and without great risks for overall health. You can't mess with metabolism.
back when this started I questioned the media output from team of 2 on this basis.
This is someone who is seen as a role model / to aspire to (based on achievements, advertising, climbing media), are we all still comfortable that this is what it takes to be an a-t-h-e-l-e-t-e?
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are we all still comfortable that this is what it takes to be an a-t-h-e-l-e-t-e?
absolutely, as long as i don't have to stop binge eating on a daily basis ;)
i can't train hard without getting really hungry. i've tried ignoring the hunger, but i get really weak if i don't eat.
i don't know anyone from round edin way that has whittled away to unhealthy levels to achieve their climbing goals. there's a mixture of ripped looking people that all started as different shapes and sizes, some of whom look unhealthily thin, but they did so before they started climbing.
I've bouldered at my best when i have trained well and not binged too much, the times i was lighter i just didn't feel strong and didn't climb well.
Alex does look exceptionally lean right now, but her shoulders are still massive.
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Off topic, but from all this I assume she's not doing the world cup in 2015? Because clearly no one thinks she only got half as many points as Noguchi because she's only half as strong?
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Off topic, but from all this I assume she's not doing the world cup in 2015? Because clearly no one thinks she only got half as many points as Noguchi because she's only half as strong?
It's almost on topic as one of the tag lines alongside the training short on Instagram (I think) said something about working weaknesses (!).
Underhand grip on the one-arm frenchies, I'm assuming undercuts are an issue :ras:
Regardless of this, my opinions on this etc., she is climbing really well, obviously on things she aspires to do.
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Personal Story - this touched a note with me so I thought I should share...
2 years ago I was 10 stone 4 (ish) climbing 7b boulders and 8a routes I could do 1-one arm pull up but really enjoyed climbing and my sessions would last all afternoon... I went on a paleo diet and low calories - (1500 ish I'd guess) and started losing weight fast... I was still training hard but could't sustain long sessions and had to take more rest days ... grade went up to 7c boulder pretty quick and I was onsighting 7c and nearly 8a routes....
Feeling strong but spending most my life in a mental 'brain fog' - not being able to make decisions and food shopping was the end of the world... became obsessed with food and every meal had to be prepared just so...
Anyway dropped my weight further and I think I was around 8 stone 10... route climbed 8b+ and bouldered 8a (2nd session)...(1-5-7 on medium rungs and 3 * one arm pull ups straight on) so yeah that was a lot of positive feedback!! (In hindsight, I learnt a lot and got a big tick so maybe worth it).
Then I tweaked my shoulder out and finished my university degree - little food meant little ability to make life decisions and my relationship was nearly destroyed by me... no fun.... but I still felt committed to my diet I was intermittent fasting as well a lot.
Won't go into too many details but people were very worried about me and it was a bit shit, my climbing stagnated and it was a slow process bringing myself back up to reality and getting over my food problem....
A year later I was just about gaining weight - 9 stone and half ish - but I was having to eat what felt like a lot to do it but not enough to make a proper difference, finally I started to feel better slowly and went travelling and got my relationship back on track and another degree lined up, but it took me a major effort to get back up the same climbing standard. To but on muscle again required serious eating like 5000-6000 calories again and I started bodybuilding like training to gain muscle took half a year of so but I was finally back up to 10 and a half stone. But a lil bit fat around the edges :P
I had previously had metabolic syndrome mentioned in a previous post where your metabolisms goes to shit and your hormones are messed up... And I was bulimic in terms of calories in calories out (not puking but exercising and fasting).... I didn't realise this until the might t-nation.com showed me the light - http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/fasting-sound-science-behavioral-bs (http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/fasting-sound-science-behavioral-bs)
Now 2 years later I have finally stabilised at around 11 stone and can do 2 one arm pull ups and 1- 5 - 7/5 and am almost feeling the same sort of lightness e.g. strength to weight ratio as before.... so don't fall into the weight loss trap just get stronger! but a few pounds of fat lighter shouldn't hurt :P
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Good post - and glad you've found a stable/happy ground.
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:Agree:
They're are many easy traps to fall into. Well done for realising you were in one and getting out.
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Glad you got over your trouble. I've had nearly the same experience, not specifically about losing weight but about obsessive/compulsive eating and training. Horrible experience. At least you ticked something hard, I didn't even have that result.
Anyway, T-Nation is a great source of knowledge, and once you know what to pick and what to leave, it's really super super useful.
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Thanks for the kind feedback guys :) Nibile, sorry to hear you experienced something similar I hope you are over it now - with the help of the mighty T-Nation :P So true about the picking and leaving on it though!
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Thanks DK, luckily it's over! I'm still quite conscious about food, but I train in a smarter way and eat as much as I like! Focusing on high intensity training instead of cardio nightmares helped a lot.
Funnily enough, as the initial problem was caused or anyway related to climbing (power/weight ratio, being super lean, etc.), I made the first step to overcome it, equally because of climbing.
I used to lift, run and cycle a lot to control weight and fat, and when I would go to the sea for a few weeks on vacation, I was always super concerned about staying fit without having a gym, and cycling and running in +35° temps was very hard.
So one year I decided that instead of having a hell of a vacation like before, I would simply swim for half an hour every other day (bear in mind that normally I would run for 50 to 90 minutes, or cycle up hills for 4 or 5 hours everyday), and see what would happen.
Well, at the end of the Summer, it happened that after weeks of this routine and no other training, I easily redpointed my first 7c sport route.
This opened my eyes to the foolishness of what I'd been doing for a few years, and luckily shifted my habibts to a safer and healthier regime.
More recently the discovery of all the info on T-Nation, was another game-winner.
:weakbench: