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1
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by abarro81 on Today at 09:13:32 pm »
Good effort on all that work Liam, sounds like a mission!
2
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by spidermonkey09 on Today at 09:10:09 pm »
Of course there are instances, but as the saying goes, the exception proves the rule.
3
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Liamhutch89 on Today at 08:39:33 pm »
Sorry Pete, but your lack of experience in moving hundreds of tonnes of rock is showing.

But I'll modify my position. Developing sport climbs usually takes more effort than developing boulders, but there are instances where this isn't true. My reasoning for posting in this thread was to argue that there isn't an agreed rule on the matter of closed projects. Some people put in a lot of work and close projects, others put in a lot of work and leave them open for everyone (this is my preference as a developer).

I saw 5 years mentioned somewhere in the thread. Surely that is a joke?

Edit - I misread. They thought 5 years was too long (thank god).
4
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by kc on Today at 08:10:14 pm »
Exactly what Pete said. For context a short spot route with 8 bolts and a lower off might cost about £70 and that is with bolt fund discount so £100+ is not unusual. That's if you're using quality bolts of course.
5
conditions reports (isitgreasy on twitter) / Re: Woodwell Conditions
« Last post by abarro81 on Today at 07:56:56 pm »
Ace, thanks!
6
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by petejh on Today at 07:46:21 pm »
W.a.C.  :)
7
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Tony S on Today at 07:27:44 pm »
Just to add, obviously, the dust from the drilling and the fumes from the glue are real killers too  :tease:
8
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by petejh on Today at 07:17:00 pm »
I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense.

Nah, this doesn't hold water. Developing is hard and time consuming work. Developing sport routes is always going to be, on average, more work than boulders. Yes there are plenty of routes where the crag is easy access and you can walk to the top drop a rope, and the rock's immaculate, and vertical or less than, and the bolts go in quickly because you can access the rock not be swinging 6 feet away from the rock, and the moves are obvious. But this is maybe 1% of the time. And yeah there are boulders miles from anywhere which are massive and have to have huge cleaning efforts and elaborate patios, but again in a minority.

To illustrate why routes are harder to develop than boulders you only need to look at why boulders traverses are easier to work the moves on than sport routes. The difference in effort and logistics of working out moves, which dictates where bolts need to go, should be obvious.
And something you can pop a ladder against or drop a 5m bit of rope down is in a completely different league of workload/time to a 20m long and overhanging new route - which just to access the face to touch the holds, let alone get purchase to create opposing force to be able to drill bolts into rock - requires you to aid bolt/aid on gear your way up or down the cliff. Then you have to work the moves on a rope and realise you've misplaced the bolts for clipping onsight. Total ballache but strangely addictive.

Showing a lack of experience of developing routes there sorry Liam.
9
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Kingy on Today at 07:07:57 pm »
To take Smith Rock as an example, from the recent interview with Alan Watts on the Written in Stone podcast, Alan mentions that it took him 7 days of work to bolt and prepare To Bolt or Not to Be before ot was ready to be climbed. Jibe Tribout asked Alan permission to try it and this was given then Jibe sent it in 1986.

Alan was working on another 5.14 called Bad Man which was a mess and required a similar amount of cleaning of friable holds, gluing and bolting, hard manual labour. He had a specific conversation with Jibe about this and asked him to stay off it as he had fallen off the last move and wanted to get the FA as it meant a lot to him (his fingers were injured and he could only climb a few days per week). Jibe flew in and snagged the FA without consulting Alan which local climbers informed him about, saying it was a low act.

There is another climb in Aggro Gully called 'Scene of the Crime' which received a similar treatment by Jibe. Apparently his justification was that it would have been OK in France. Alan mentions that he was OK with Jibe doing Just Do It, which he had bolted in 89 and gave permission for Jibe to try.

The podcast is well worth a listen! 
10
chuffing / Re: closed project etiquette
« Last post by Liamhutch89 on Today at 06:37:26 pm »
It's slightly different though, developing a bloc from which you do some, but not all, the first ascents (I assume - apologies to Liam if not) and developing a sport route that someone else does. I also think you are underestimating the time (and expense) it would take to develop 5 20m sport routes in many places in the UK. Personally I've cleaned up a few blocks (3 days in a boiler suit scrubbing the lower half of Sheep Buttress springs to mind) that I never considered having any closed projects on, but I would be narked if I equipped, glued, and cleaned a sport route in the Peak that someone nicked.

I do think context is very relevant though. Whacking a few bolts in a last great problem type route on perfect rock then bagsying it for several years is very different to cleaning and fixing up some slightly chossy, overgrown and ignored limestone route. Also bear in mind the degree of care some people take to make the routes good. KC in particular has converted some previously grim bits of rock into gems.

Then there's the practical aspect - many (most?) sport routes in the UK would probably not have been equipped if there was a real risk that the equipper wouldn't get to do the FA.

On the boulder I'm most proud of opening, I managed to get 1 FA, but it wasn't the first line on the block and I advertised it to everyone before anything had been climbed. I just thought it would be more fun climbing on it with other strong climbers?

I don't think it's fair to say that either sport or bouldering development requires more or less work and expense. It obviously depends. Imagine a completely hypothetical scenario where to avoid doing anything illegal, local climbers seek and acquire the permission of a landowner to develop the best bouldering area possible. You could not only brush a few blocks, but break and shift hundreds of tonnes of rock that is blocking boulders with potential, craft perfect landings on steep hillsides, clear as much vegetation as needed, glue and stabilise holds, etc. of course, I would not recommend doing this without permission.
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