UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: VictorFries on April 11, 2018, 06:27:05 pm
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Hi all,
Just to share the update on the BMC RAD page regarding access to Clemitt's Crag, NYM.
Real Shame this one, the Moors has lost its best boulder crag.
'A report was received on 26th Mar 2018 that a climber preparing to approach the crag from the road was challenged by a game keeper and told that climbing was not permitted on the crag. Subsequently, information received via the NYMNP Ranger confirmed that the Head Keeper does NOT want climbing on this crag, wishing it to be available as a bird "reserve". The main crag is not on Open Access land so there is no automatic right to climb on it. As the more significant Danby Crag is on the same estate and currently enjoys seasonally restrictive access, climbers are requested to abide by the restriction on Clemmits until further notice.'
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What a shit show. A bird reserve? Raise the birds to shoot the birds? Mass trespass? If the bmc can't sort it out?
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What a shit show. A bird reserve? Raise the birds to shoot the birds? Mass trespass? If the bmc can't sort it out?
And end up with another Whitehouses. However looking at the access land map, it appears that Clemmits out of the woods is on access land and the bottom boulders of Clemmits in are right on the public right of way
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What a shit show. A bird reserve? Raise the birds to shoot the birds? Mass trespass? If the bmc can't sort it out?
And end up with another Whitehouses. However looking at the access land map, it appears that Clemmits out of the woods is on access land and the bottom boulders of Clemmits in are right on the public right of way
That's correct, the Clemitt's out boulders are are on access land.
The Game Keeper grants access to Camp Hill for climbers but failing to realise that Camp Hill is on access land. There seems to be just a touch of power play going on here.
This is most certainly not an issue with bad behaviour on the behalf of climbers. Time to start keeping an eye out for dead birds of prey in these reserve areas.
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I have been doing a lot of walking round the NYMoors while I recover from shoulder surgery.
I have never seen so many signs saying me public right of way in 40 plus years of going in to the country side. The amount of land used for raring Pheasants is unbelievable.
One on the ironies of this area is the national bird of prey centre is in Helmsley at Duncombe Park who also own lots of the Grouse Moors.
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It's a great shame as there is some very good bouldering here. I'm told from local youth Matt Ferrier that there is clear evidence of people motorbiking around there. Perhaps the BMC could mention in their negotiations that climbers' presence at Clemitts may help to discourage those bikers, who are doing the real damage?
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My post should say no public right of way.
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It's a very tricky situation, particularly if the same landowner also manages Danby Crag, as has been reported. I'd be wary of antagonising the gamekeeper, but this seems like a very different situation to Whitehouses. There are no houses anywhere near and there is a path (also marked on the OS map) that goes right past the boulders.
Either this is a right of way (I don't think it is), or this is a path that has been used for several decades (probably longer), with recorded use (indicated in the climbing guides) documented for at least the last 40 years. Given the significance of this crag, I wonder whether there could be an option to claim an unrecorded right of way. Has the BMC ever been involved in anything like this? It certainly seems like an absolutely bombproof candidate for it.
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There is a ROW footpath that goes right past the bottom of Whitehouses.
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The fact that there is a right of way there is meaningless I think.
For designated access land, the CRoW Act grants the right to take access for the purpose of open-air recreation. Which presumably covers climbing (off topic: but not caving?).
Under the act, the only rights granted for rights of way are: (a) a right of way on foot,
(b) a right of way on horseback or leading a horse, and
(c) a right of way for vehicles other than mechanically propelled vehicles
There is no provision for climbing, but you may walk your horse along the bottom of Whitehouses as much as you like.
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Was pointing this out as Franco had above, and RoW's often seem to be used as a starting point for access for climbing. As you have noted, having access to a footpath doesn't actually seem to confer any right to climb.
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The fact that there is a right of way there is meaningless I think.
For designated access land, the CRoW Act grants the right to take access for the purpose of open-air recreation. Which presumably covers climbing (off topic: but not caving?).
Under the act, the only rights granted for rights of way are: (a) a right of way on foot,
(b) a right of way on horseback or leading a horse, and
(c) a right of way for vehicles other than mechanically propelled vehicles
There is no provision for climbing, but you may walk your horse along the bottom of Whitehouses as much as you like.
Where have you got this information from? As I understand it's incorrect. You can't take a horse on a RoW unless it is marked as a bridleway. So you can't take your hourse to Whitehouses, but you could take it to clemitt's.
Interestingly, according to this (http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/rights-of-way-law-in-england-and-wales/basics-of-rights-of-way-law.aspx) you are free to stop for a picnic.
But I agree none of this helps with access to either of the crags mentioned.
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Perhaps I have that wrong then about established rights of way. I'm fairly sure that unrecorded rights can be for pretty much anything though.
The area that Clemmitt's falls into still has a fuedal system in place. I had an allotment (locally known as garths) just down the road in Castleton (all part of Danby Court Leet) and instead of paying rent to the council, you paid a "fine" to the court leet/ Lord Downe. This was usually £2 and was just a way to stop you retrospectively claiming to own the land. There are fines for all sorts of things - parking cars, digging peat, using land to access other land. The Danby bailiff goes around once a year instructing people to present themselves at Danby Castle to pay their fines. Whether the lord of the manor owns this land or not I don't know, but presumably the same law that dictates he must charge a fine to stop retrospective usage right claims in the area, is also applicable here?
If I owned Climmitt's Crag, I would have thought it'd be in my interest to establish a permissive arrangement, as it's very difficult to stop access that has been happening unchallenged since at least 1977.
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The fact that there is a right of way there is meaningless I think.
For designated access land, the CRoW Act grants the right to take access for the purpose of open-air recreation. Which presumably covers climbing (off topic: but not caving?).
Under the act, the only rights granted for rights of way are: (a) a right of way on foot,
(b) a right of way on horseback or leading a horse, and
(c) a right of way for vehicles other than mechanically propelled vehicles
There is no provision for climbing, but you may walk your horse along the bottom of Whitehouses as much as you like.
Where have you got this information from?
The Act itself, specifically this section:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/37/section/48
Although, to be honest, I haven't read it carefully. I can see that the Act refers to footpaths and bridleways but haven't rooted out the bit where it states what the different rights are for those things. I don't suppose they are going to stretch to bouldering though.
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The area that Clemmitt's falls into still has a fuedal system in place. I had an allotment (locally known as garths) just down the road in Castleton (all part of Danby Court Leet) and instead of paying rent to the council, you paid a "fine" to the court leet/ Lord Downe. This was usually £2 and was just a way to stop you retrospectively claiming to own the land. There are fines for all sorts of things - parking cars, digging peat, using land to access other land. The Danby bailiff goes around once a year instructing people to present themselves at Danby Castle to pay their fines.
Fascinating. Is there a web page somewhere that describes this in more detail? Do you actually have to go to the castle to pay your £2 allotment "fine"?
It sounds a bit like the system described by Laurie Lee in Cider With Rosie where all the villagers are tenants of the local Squire (or something like that).
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Just google Danby Estate and it’s got everything from booking a days shooting (between 6 and 8 grand plus) to the history of it.
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It is quite bizarre. Although it seems quite normal until you move away. Quite a few things in everyday life are influenced by the system.
There was a short film made about it a few years back. Included is some footage of people presenting at Danby Castle to pay fines: https://www.waterstones.com/book/danby-court-leet-documentary-film-and-research/david-eadington/gillian-cookson/9780902074170
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Crazy. The bit about having to present at the castle to pay "fines" is particularly sinister. It sounds like it's designed to ensure that everybody remembers their proper place in the pecking order.
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Mad that in the days of a 24/7 interconnected social media world, blockchain technology, self driving cars on the roads etc, Franco still had to trek up to the castle to pay the lord of the manor his two quid.
Reminds me of my days in mortgages when we used to see loads of weird random restrictive covenants on peoples' houses - they could keep as many cats as they liked but no dogs was one that sticks in the memory.
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So you can't take your horse to Whitehouses, but you could take it to clemitt's.
Would it drink at either though?