UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Danny on May 04, 2021, 06:34:12 pm
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I don't know the first thing about caving, but Pearson and Ciavaldini seem to have seriously pissed off some cavers by tradding about in a big cave:
https://www.instagram.com/p/COdI6CvlirC/?igshid=ec4cn7yxc7lh
(https://www.instagram.com/p/COdI6CvlirC/?igshid=ec4cn7yxc7lh)
Honestly all the whack and dangle tactics that appear to be standard in caving leave me a bit confused as to why trad climbing in a cave is such a big no-no. Perhaps someone can educate me?
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You need to understand caving is a serious business, it isn't done for fun and cheap thrills. It is exploration and ropes are used to enable safe progress while keeping infrastructure to a minimum. In particular, the often delicate features are for your eyes only and in many caves touching is frowned upon. As soon as I saw the original post I was awaiting the backlash. :lol:
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Ah right, sounds like serious business. So, as a thought experiment to centre my caving ethics, what would be the right approach if, say, a beautiful series of flowstone features in a roof were guarding the entrance to an unexplored system? Smash on with the bolts, avoid, or clean aid at A5?
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As ever, we continue to learn and grow and appreciate the diverse communities we connect with. We will share more details on our actions to support the world of caving as soon as we can.
Spoken like true saccharine PC ambassadors. They should get Stevie Haston to write their PR reports for them - if he can be dragged away from being a demented covid-denier loony, that is.
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Ah right, sounds like serious business. So, as a thought experiment to centre my caving ethics, what would be the right approach if, say, a beautiful series of flowstone features in a roof were guarding the entrance to an unexplored system? Smash on with the bolts, avoid, or clean aid at A5?
Whichever approach you took it would be correct as long as you #neverstopexploring.
More seriously, it does appear a pretty stupid activity to spray about on the internet.
1. advertising this (the underlying purpose: to sell jackets and shoes) is bound to encourage other climbers to seek out similar formations in similar caves. Is this a good thing, probably not.
2. nobody else except over-privileged sponsored climbers are ever going to be able to try the same climb - unless the show cave are happy to let that formation be degraded into a black-rubber and chalk covered broken and polished monument to the power of advertising, by hoards of scrabbling punters like you and me. How elitist and limiting. Pretty much the antithesis of #neverstopexploring - #plebsneverallowedtoclimbit.
3. despite the seeming hypocrisy of the cavers up in arms one wrong doesn't justify another. And there IS a significant difference in the potential for damage between the very limited numbers involved in the somewhat 'underground' activity of cave exploration - where I think I'm correct in saying there's a strong ethic, whack n' dangle notwithstanding, to at least take precautions to avoid contact with or damage to delicate formations; versus a couple of well-known and well-followed goretex jacket salespeople insta-spraying about deliberately seeking out delicate formations to lead trad climb on for the cameras.
But yeah whose god is more righteous I dunno.
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Whack and Dangle would be a great name for a Caving themed East London Hipster Bar.
Or a pair of mischievous Labradors 😁
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Poor Darse. Least he might get a Redemption sequel out of it.
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https://www.climbing.com/news/check-out-the-underground-climbing-scene-literally/
Here's the original article.
and in that spirit, my husband James Pearson and I are focusing on reducing our carbon footprint. At 35 years old, traveling less is an easy choice for us when you’ve been moving as much as we have over the years. Even without the desire to reduce our ecological and environmental impact, years of adventures between Japan, Africa, and the U.S. have us ready to take a breath and slow down.
Strikes me smelling a bit of BS, and weak justification for their actions.
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Be interesting to see how sponsors act..
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It reminds me of the whole climbing waterfalls in Japan whilst tearing off vast amounts of pristine vegetation debacle. Well intentioned "at one with nature/pure Challenge" is actually just a bit nobby
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I feel a bit sorry for them. When Dave Mac and Alan Cassidy climbed a cave for BBC TV https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/04/dave_macleod_and_alan_cassidy_on_the_bbc-67036 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/04/dave_macleod_and_alan_cassidy_on_the_bbc-67036) I don't recall it raising any eyebrows.
Surely their sponsors signed it off too.
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Also Potter soloing Delicate Arch and Patagonia not being happy.
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I feel a bit sorry for them. When Dave Mac and Alan Cassidy climbed a cave for BBC TV https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/04/dave_macleod_and_alan_cassidy_on_the_bbc-67036 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/04/dave_macleod_and_alan_cassidy_on_the_bbc-67036) I don't recall it raising any eyebrows.
Surely their sponsors signed it off too.
That's a limestone cave vs calcium carbonate (?) formations in an underground cavern.
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From a 'serious' albeit semi retired caver... ;)
I've actually called cavers out on this over on the other UKc -
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27957.msg343189#msg343189
(actually a sister site to this very site, set up at the same time by bubba).
Glass house residents and stone throwers.
To make a few points in defense of the cavers - they appeared to be climbing on flowstone formations, or speleotherms, which are very fragile things which take thousands upon thousands of years to form, and a second to desecrate).
And indeed, as always with them two, its just a publicity stunt with little thought as to the wider implications. Caves can be hugely fragile environments and there are just too many examples of caves that have been utterly trashed by the un-initiated (shall we say) and this kind of publicity just sends out the wrong message.
Dave Mac's thing was in Jingling pot, and didn't involve delicate flowstone formations as SA Chris rightly points out. Bit like Malc Taylors route in Eldon Hole (and the two new ones in there done recently).
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if, say, a beautiful series of flowstone features in a roof were guarding the entrance to an unexplored system?
A few Hilti caps will sort that out.
There's a free climb starting at the bottom of Gaping Gill and climbing out to daylight. I think it's only viable when the winch meet is on and the river diverted (though I expect it has only had one ascent). Thus the cavers must have been in on it, albeit this happened some time ago. No idea what sort of rock it takes in.
Rob Fenton keeps telling me that there's crack lines down there that would make the Wide Boyz pop a cushion on their laps.
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Danny, I may have taken the wrong vibe from the thread title, but it reads a bit "Jeremy Clarkson" to me.
But echoing James Pearson's remarks, good to raise this for lots of reasons, particularly the opportunity to appreciate what caving really means to their community, climbing to ours, and handcrafted customs and burning rubber to Nibile ;D
Seriously, I would read James' comments as being really sincere, and worthy of how we should read this. Climbing has very little to do with getting up bits of rock, and caving similarly little to do with the opposite; proximity flying also comes to mind.
I think we should consider the upset seriously, and really, the care that Sam conveys also probably has less to do with possible damage than we might think.
Perhaps also, Pearson and Cialvaldini - by virtue of being able to climb pretty much where and when they want - are able to take a step back and consider what they do in a wider context. We should do that too.
The Plantation on a busy Autumn day can be rammed with folk, all trying to get "back to the source", reconnecting with nature, in a way that might even seem a bit crass and noisy to someone out for a quiet walk with their dog.
For all these "reasons", I don't see any hypocrisy in the response from the cavers either.
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https://www.climbing.com/news/check-out-the-underground-climbing-scene-literally/
Here's the original article.
and in that spirit, my husband James Pearson and I are focusing on reducing our carbon footprint. At 35 years old, traveling less is an easy choice for us when you’ve been moving as much as we have over the years. Even without the desire to reduce our ecological and environmental impact, years of adventures between Japan, Africa, and the U.S. have us ready to take a breath and slow down.
Strikes me smelling a bit of BS, and weak justification for their actions.
Interestingly, article now removed.
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From a 'serious' albeit semi retired caver... ;)
I've actually called cavers out on this over on the other UKc -
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27957.msg343189#msg343189
(actually a sister site to this very site, set up at the same time by bubba).
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Good post on (other)UKC Sam. What's the story with the "...big bolt climbs of Ben Bentham in Oxlow," you mention on there? have never heard about that.
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Good post on (other)UKC Sam. What's the story with the "...big bolt climbs of Ben Bentham in Oxlow," you mention on there? have never heard about that.
Keith 'Ben' Betham bolt climbed high into the roof of the West Chamber in Oxlow in '76 looking for leads and it was called Coconut Airways.
Only thing I can see quickly is a brief transcript of John Becks diaries here.
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20341.msg261125#msg261125
Probably better write ups in the Eldon journals which I might be able to dig out if you're interested further.
Sorry - off topic.
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in '76 looking for leads and it was called Coconut Airways.
Great "of its time" name, I remember the song so well.
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Guessing its a reference to the lumps of rock (probably miners deads, which are usually coconut sized) that he gardened on his way up.
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Thanks for this Sam. I enjoyed reading the other perspectives. I think we can all agree on the publicity stunt aspect being a bad look.
From a 'serious' albeit semi retired caver... ;)
I've actually called cavers out on this over on the other UKc -
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27957.msg343189#msg343189
(actually a sister site to this very site, set up at the same time by bubba).
Glass house residents and stone throwers.
To make a few points in defense of the cavers - they appeared to be climbing on flowstone formations, or speleotherms, which are very fragile things which take thousands upon thousands of years to form, and a second to desecrate).
And indeed, as always with them two, its just a publicity stunt with little thought as to the wider implications. Caves can be hugely fragile environments and there are just too many examples of caves that have been utterly trashed by the un-initiated (shall we say) and this kind of publicity just sends out the wrong message.
Dave Mac's thing was in Jingling pot, and didn't involve delicate flowstone formations as SA Chris rightly points out. Bit like Malc Taylors route in Eldon Hole (and the two new ones in there done recently).
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Whack and Dangle would be a great name for a Caving themed East London Hipster Bar.
Or a pair of mischievous Labradors 😁
Or the next hit dating app?
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Thanks for this Sam. I enjoyed reading the other perspectives. I think we can all agree on the publicity stunt aspect being a bad look.
I'm not the most charitable of people when it comes to giving people the benefit of the doubt (I'm not alone looking at the UK(C) thread), and I may be swayed on this one, but whilst it's totally not my thing, it's the way they make their living is it not (and being really good at rock climbing is no longer enough)?
I find it far less offensive than "I climbed X that used to get BIG GRADE but no longer does", or similar whilst #taggingtheshitoutofbrands.
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it's the way they make their living is it not (and being really good at rock climbing is no longer enough)?
They could just get a job and go climbing in their spare time like the rest of us, rather than selling us a dream which non of us can hope to fulfill, whilst reminding us that we shouldn't attempt to fulfill that dream anyhow on a global warming basis.
Nah... fuck em
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...like mine which may or may not involve a large questionable infrastructure project and generally pouring concrete all over the place (more is definitely better in my line of work)?
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Good post on (other)UKC Sam. What's the story with the "...big bolt climbs of Ben Bentham in Oxlow," you mention on there? have never heard about that.
Keith 'Ben' Betham bolt climbed high into the roof of the West Chamber in Oxlow in '76 looking for leads and it was called Coconut Airways.
Only thing I can see quickly is a brief transcript of John Becks diaries here.
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20341.msg261125#msg261125
Probably better write ups in the Eldon journals which I might be able to dig out if you're interested further.
Sorry - off topic.
Nice one, cheers. <also totally off topic> I'd love to have met John Beck, he sounds like the quintessential peaksman. He even has a trilobite named after him, Baliothyrius becki, first found along the lane between Eyam and Stoney. https://pygs.lyellcollection.org/content/pygs/54/4/237/F6.large.jpg (https://pygs.lyellcollection.org/content/pygs/54/4/237/F6.large.jpg) </still totally off topic>
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He was just a lovely lovely gentle person. Didn't matter if he'd never met you before and you were a jumped up precocious little twerp who thought he was gods gift to caving (talking about a mate of course :-[), he'd still have time to listen to you, invite you into Glebe cottage for a brew and offer up any titbits of info he could dig out of his vast archives.
Bless his soul. There's a lot of folk who still miss him (and Doug) deeply.
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it's the way they make their living is it not (and being really good at rock climbing is no longer enough)?
This is the nub of the issue for me. I always wonder what people think when they say things like this ^.
'Making a living' is directly responsible for, or tangentially linked to, a lot of really shit stuff in the world - class division, chronic stress, economic hardship, educational inequality, environmental damage, over consumption, corruption. You could go on. Making a living for the majority of people on this planet is just neutral* or slightly annoying, a means to an end, the end being to live as great a part of life as possible out of the 'making a living' part. Forget 'I love my job and would gladly do it 24/7 for free' - that's a dream for the 99.9999% of people who will never achieve it because the underlying structure of society would collapse if it ever happened.
The act of going out and climbing up things is great for many reasons: the places, the travel, the people, the freedom, the adventure.. you could go on. But a major reason the act of climbing is so great is because it has *absolutely nothing at all* to do with 'making a living'.
I could (and did but deleted) write a long essay on why 'making a living' is so antithetical to the core of what makes recreating in the outdoors so great.
* as in would those who claim they 'love their job' continue to work in their current role, or would they choose to not continue, if they were given £2million tax-free tomorrow. If they choose to not continue then they aren't doing their job purely for the love of it.
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Simply that hard ascents won't allow them to bring in a wage to feed their climbing habit and their 'publicity stunt' approach (as others have described it) is their compromise for doing so. I find it hard to begrudge others like the pair of them that live a different life as I'm not sure I'd want the compromises involved on a wider scale.
'Making a living' is directly responsible for, or tangentially linked to, a lot of really shit stuff in the world - class division, chronic stress, economic hardship, educational inequality, environmental damage, over consumption, corruption. You could go on.
I can't really tell if you're arguing that we're all doing shitty stuff or their shitty stuff is worse? My career choice repeatedly involves pouring a bit more concrete; it's hardly virtuous so I find this:
They could just get a job and go climbing in their spare time like the rest of us...
A bit :tumble:
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I can’t tell from the photos but are they putting protection into the stalagmites/stalactites? That can’t be safe?
On the wider point I’ve no problem with them making a living by being climbing influencers (other than my rampant jealousy) but they shouldn’t be making climbing over irreplaceable delicate things of immense cultural value a thing.
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I can’t tell from the photos but are they putting protection into the stalagmites/stalactites? That can’t be safe?
Article now deleted JP was at length to state that he placed sets of Wild Countrytm
cams in between some of the formations that looked fragile and probably weren't safe
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“We’re all swimming in the gutter - but some of us are circling the drain”
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I can’t tell from the photos but are they putting protection into the stalagmites/stalactites? That can’t be safe?
On the wider point I’ve no problem with them making a living by being climbing influencers (other than my rampant jealousy) but they shouldn’t be making climbing over irreplaceable delicate things of immense cultural value a thing.
It's funny how we call them "irreplaceable delicate things of immense cultural value" when they are underground, and just 'tufas' when they're above ground.
PS I'm being deliberately facetious and I know there are different types and some are more delicate than others. But ones like those on Reptile Smile on Portland are exhumed subterranean stals, pure and simple.
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Not saying right or wrong, but hasn't them now being exposed to the elements done as much damage to them as people grabbing and standing on them?
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:shrug: I honestly don't know, but they seem to be standing up pretty very well to both the weather and many trampling feet (over 19 thousand logged ascents on UKC).
I'm not commenting on the ascent in question either. Just passing comment on how essentially the same thing is treated differently according to context.
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It's funny how we call them "irreplaceable delicate things of immense cultural value" when they are underground, and just 'tufas' when they're above ground.
PS I'm being deliberately facetious and I know there are different types and some are more delicate than others. But ones like those on Reptile Smile on Portland are exhumed subterranean stals, pure and simple.
Very good point BJ.
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I think the protection from interference afforded by those formations being located underground rather than above ground (on a popular crag for e.g.) is a large part of the reason for people’s outrage. Maybe it’s seen as a step too far, for a couple of climbers to leave their usual territory to seek (and destroy?) tufas underground. That the climbers are also
media whores making a living by sending photos and articles of their activities around the world just adds fuel to the flames.
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Paul I’m not arguing that ‘their’ work is better or worse. Personally I’d hate to have to climb to earn a living but that’s me, ymmv. Personally I don't view 'just going tradding or sport climbing' as a valid 'job' worth compromising values for. I do for the niche jobs of guiding clients, competing in competitions or literally being right at the cutting edge of performance - literally a small handfull of people. That's just me.
What I was trying to say is that climbing is great in large part precisely because it doesn’t have anything to do with the concept of earning a living. Therefore I question the value of using ‘making a living’ as a reasonable justification for doing anything when it comes to climbing or a.n.other recreational activity. Especially anything contentious.
I think the first principle should be to ask ‘who benefits?’ If it isn’t beneficial to climbing as a recreational pursuit, or to climbers in general, then I question its validity. In short: I place higher value on the not work'ness of recreation, than I do on the making a living'ness of climbing. And I also believe recreation is a fragile concept and better off protected from the bullshit aspect of 'work' such as promotion and consumerism.
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Therefore I question the value of using ‘making a living’ as a reasonable justification for doing anything when it comes to climbing or a.n.other recreation. especially anything contentious.
It's not a justification, it's just reality in the sense that to make a wage from climbing these days you have to do significantly more than just being good/the best (this latest post doesn't seem any more overtly publicised than previous things the pair have done?), and this involves publicising yourself a lot. That's not a justification to bolt caves but there's a sense of vitriol which comes across like bitterness of someone else living their best life (when in reality what we're seeing is the glossy bits we'd all like rather than the realities).
Like you, I don't like it but it isn't going away.
They could just get a job and go climbing in their spare time like the rest of us, rather than selling us a dream which non of us can hope to fulfill, whilst reminding us that we shouldn't attempt to fulfill that dream anyhow on a global warming basis.
That's a t-shirt right there. Anyhow, I'm out, I've got some more concrete to specify.
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double post
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I could (and did but deleted) write a long essay on why 'making a living' is so antithetical to the core of what makes recreating in the outdoors so great.
Shame, I would have enjoyed that.
In short: I place higher value on the not work'ness of recreation, than I do on the making a living'ness of climbing. And I also believe recreation is a fragile concept and better off protected from the bullshit aspect of 'work' such as promotion and consumerism.
Amen to that. I did a slightly fringe slideshow on similar themes some years back, at one of the short-lived but excellent evenings organised by Claire Carter.
I'm pretty ambivalent about the this stunt and the pair of them. I suspect, like Bear Grylls, their appeal is largely with a demographic who don't know very much about what they're doing. The surprising bit is James still displaying the sort of clumsy naïveté that got him into hot water as a youth. It's something I've noticed in other famous climbers and perhaps derives from a lack of curiosity about the wider world beyond your next career move. However the one line that did have me spluttering my coffee was this:
by 5pm each day it was time to clean up dust ourselves down, head back and collect our 2 year old son from his nanny, and slip just as quickly back into our typical evening routine in the comfort of our own home!
Is this a cultural thing? Are nannies normal in France, cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich, and leaving your infant with nanny while you go cragging a ludicrous repudiation of everything climbing culture stands for.
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Is this a cultural thing? Are nannies normal in France, cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich, and leaving your infant with nanny while you go cragging a ludicrous repudiation of everything climbing culture stands for.
Assuming they treat climbing as "work", is this any different to dropping the kids off at nursery/a childminder whilst the parents head to the office/hospital/whatever? I'm assuming "nanny" actually means childminder in a UK sense, not that they have a "live in" nanny.
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Are nannies normal in France, cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich, and leaving your infant with nanny while you go cragging a ludicrous repudiation of everything climbing culture stands for.
What does ‘climbing culture’ stand for? I’d say it’s a pretty broad church these days. I deffo know of a few people who work part time but have their child in nursery one of their week days off so they can climb, do you find this troubling too?
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I think they probably ballsed up a bit and had to retract it and maybe got a bit of misguidance from a caver they knew, which perhaps also was compounded by a bit of "he said it was fine, sort of, and we wanted to hear yeah it's absolutely fine, so that's what we heard."
I will say on the other hand that UKCaving there were some people getting a bit pissy about it because it's just a "cheap thrill" when climbers risk damaging stalactites rather than when cavers do it because it's necessary to access a new system or whatever. Is not caving also a "cheap thrill" by the same standards? By which I mean; both of them are basically contrived and unnecessary reasons to be scrabbling around on/in rock for one's own personal sick joy, so to me it feels like if a caver is okay whacking over a stalagtite or stalagmite for their thrills then is not climbing equally acceptable?
On the other other hand though like, doesn't seem like it was particularly necessary to go climbing in that cave and climbers should respect the rock and so on so yeah I guess seems fair. I don't have any view of Pearson and Ciavaldini other than I think it's funny that Pearson has a French cadence to his voice these days. Matlock by way of La Reunion.
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I deffo know of a few people who work part time but have their child in nursery one of their week days off so they can climb, do you find this troubling too?
It's not something I did myself, but the point was in the UK 'nanny' typically means something different to nursery or childminder, that's why I asked if it's a cultural thing.
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I believe the caving ethos is generally dont touch anything you dont have to to get to to where you want to go, particularly if it is pretty. Some outsider then coming along and touching pretty things in a show cave for an advert doesnt really fit wih the ethos.
What is morally right is a different bag.
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I believe the caving ethos is generally dont touch anything you dont have to to get to to where you want to go, particularly if it is pretty. Some outsider then coming along and touching pretty things in a show cave for an advert doesnt really fit wih the ethos.
What is morally right is a different bag.
I guess from that point of view... if Pearson wants to get to the top of the route, then he has to touch the holds, so he's legit to do that? Just not anything else. If he had caved his way up there, is that legit?
I don't have a dog in the fight mind you. And I am not about to go climbing in caves. I'm just in a queue to vote so I gotta do something to pass the time.
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selling us a dream which non of us can hope to fulfill
Personally I don't view 'just going tradding or sport climbing' as a valid 'job' worth compromising values for.
I think you've both gone a bit wrong here; their job isn't "just going climbing" or "selling a dream". Their job is to advertise products made by the companies who employ them, to people who might want to use those products, and it just happens that one of the ways of doing that is going climbing and taking photos of themselves doing that activity. If you've misinterpreted that as them selling a dream of a certain lifestyle then that's your problem, not theirs.
Edit: that probably comes across a bit strong. It's totally understandable and one of the big problems with social media, but it is true.
I deffo know of a few people who work part time but have their child in nursery one of their week days off so they can climb, do you find this troubling too?
It's not something I did myself, but the point was in the UK 'nanny' typically means something different to nursery or childminder, that's why I asked if it's a cultural thing.
Yes I think nannies are quite common in France.
Off-topic a bit but I don't really understand why putting your child into nursery or other childcare so that you can go climbing would be a problem?
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Jeez, I didn't say or mean to imply that. Did nobody notice 'cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich'. Maybe it's just me.
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Fair dos. Lost in internet translation :thumbsup:
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I think you've both gone a bit wrong here; their job isn't "just going climbing" or "selling a dream". Their job is to advertise products made by the companies who employ them, to people who might want to use those products, and it just happens that one of the ways of doing that is going climbing and taking photos of themselves doing that activity. If you've misinterpreted that as them selling a dream of a certain lifestyle then that's your problem, not theirs.
Edit: that probably comes across a bit strong. It's totally understandable and one of the big problems with social media, but it is true.
No I get that Bradders (got it a long time ago). It's why I said this earlier:
... a couple of well-known and well-followed goretex jacket salespeople insta-spraying...
As I've made pretty obvious, with some caveats I find it an absurd and troubling concept, the job of being a *clothing & equipment salesperson via the medium of climbing. To me, all the compromises this role brings make it the antithesis of what outdoor recreation is about. I believe most climbers would agree where they to stop and analyse what the great things are about having adventures in the outdoors.
*Professional climber
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their job isn't "just going climbing" or "selling a dream". Their job is to advertise products made by the companies who employ them, to people who might want to use those products, and it just happens that one of the ways of doing that is going climbing and taking photos of themselves doing that activity. If you've misinterpreted that as them selling a dream of a certain lifestyle then that's your problem, not theirs.
I think this summary is equally wrong. They get paid for promoting products yes. However they only get to promote products because they've already created a platform to sell them from. Creating and maintaining that platform absolutely involves selling a dream of a lifestyle in return for likes and more exposure. And creating the platform by selling the dream must come first, because without it the product placement is worthless.
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Jeez, I didn't say or mean to imply that. Did nobody notice 'cos from where I'm standing nannies are the preserve of the cosseted super-rich'. Maybe it's just me.
Surprised a public school boy would even comment when you all had several.... (big ;)).
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I think this summary is equally wrong. They get paid for promoting products yes. However they only get to promote products because they've already created a platform to sell them from. Creating and maintaining that platform absolutely involves selling a dream of a lifestyle in return for likes and more exposure. And creating the platform by selling the dream must come first, because without it the product placement is worthless.
Something similar could be said for guiding though. Half the industry is built on selling the dream of being a guide via MLs and RCI awards. And at just as much risk of comodifying climbing. There's only a few James Pearson's, though admittedly they have a wide reach. There's a whole load of guide companies on the ground with just as many excuses to bend ethics for profit and ease. It's just easier and more fun bashing James.
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It's just as easy to bash the guiding industry. I think it actually goes on frequently on a local scale. I haven't checked, but I bet if you went through ukc forums over a normal year you'd find tens or hundreds of public-calling-out of shitty or inappropriate guiding/instructing behaviour - I'm thinking 'disgusted of Northhampton, guided group at Stanage last weekend' type stuff. This is exactly the same thing as calling out someone well-known. Just no-one really cares about the guides in the bigger picture because the bigger picture isn't aware of them. Guiding misdemeanours are in general more localized in scale and piss off local climbers more I'm also thinking inappropriate belay or abseil bolts on popular alpine and trad routes in the alps etc. Thing is they tend to publicise themselves less, especially anything controversial! Occasionally the guiding industry fucks up by its own avarice, carelessness or idiocy on a bigger stage and the wider media notices - Everest examples abound.
So no, it isn't anything to do with targeting someone for the sport of it. It's being consistent in calling out behaviour which appears to be against the greater good of this amazing recreational activity we have called climbing, which has unfortunately (imo) been appropriated by guiding companies, gear companies and individuals to use for their own financial ends.
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I do hope you haven't bought shares in any of these companies, the fiends.
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Are there any ‘recreational activities’ which are free of the evil grasp of capitalism? I assume there are bird watching influencers with Carl Zeiss sponsorships, and fossil collecting influencers desperately using the right Estwing hashtags?
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You clearly have no insight into the world of competitive twitching, getting your ticks based on hiring local guides, and subscribing to bird spotting newsfeeds. A guy I worked with is really into his birds and was telling me all about it.
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Yeah birding ain't it. Psychogeography and microscopy seem refreshingly free of it as far as I can see.
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Are there any ‘recreational activities’ which are free of the evil grasp of capitalism? I assume there are bird watching influencers with Carl Zeiss sponsorships, and fossil collecting influencers desperately using the right Estwing hashtags?
I was going to say there was no commercialisation in my super obscure branch of fossil bothering (mostly because there's only me and two or three old men doing it in the UK), but then i remembered the time I took a guy out to a secret spot after he'd been in touch via a fossil forum, only to see a stream of fossils unmistakably from my secret spot start popping up on ebay at £60-80 pounds a piece! I'm very wary of passing on location information now after this brush with a 'commercial collector'.
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I had to look psychogeography up, I assumed it was akin to feng shui or other forms of geomancy, but remembering your talk on praxis it makes sense that it is based on situationism.
With that in mind I'd assume you agree that James and Caro are not dicks, but have acted in a dickish manner because of the situation they find themselves in - making a living by selling a lifestyle so that TNF shareholders can afford to send their children to finishing school or whatever wealthy people do with their money these days. I say blame the carriage driver not the horses.
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making a living by selling a lifestyle so that TNF shareholders can afford to send their children to finishing school or whatever wealthy people do with their money these days. I say blame the carriage driver not the horses.
Looks like VF Corporation (TNF owners) stock took a small dip which ties in time wise with these cave exploits (I’m sure this is causation and not just correlation). I look forward to Pete’s next stock tips based around the misbehaviour of athletes devaluing companies!
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Looks like VF Corporation (TNF owners) stock took a small dip which ties in time wise with these cave exploits (I’m sure this is causation and not just correlation). I look forward to Pete’s next stock tips based around the misbehaviour of athletes devaluing companies!
Could be a good buying opportunity, (buy the dip). Has anyone done a valuation of TNF? Joke, not interested unless they’re mining copper, tin, gold or nickel, or designing long-life solid state batteries and lightweight wiring harnesses technology..
I do hope you haven't bought shares in any of these companies, the fiends.
Assuming you’re joking, but Capitalism covers a lot of ground as you no doubt know. On this board there are people whose politics cover the hard left to a few right wingers, but economically we’re all capitalists. If anyone doesn’t think they benefit from a capitalist system they’re mistaken unless they live on a commune completely separated from the western financial system. Me being enthusiastically into growing my wealth by actively using the stock market is just me playing the game better than some (if I succeed). We’re all playing the same game.
But that said, the typical response of ‘blame the game not the player’ is to me a somewhat pathetic way to live. No thanks.. I prefer to take responsibility for my own life and live as far as possible according to the principle that I’m ultimately responsible for my own decisions and choices. It’s probably part of what attracts me to climbing, especially adventurous climbing. And why I keep harping on that the thinking behind a lot of ‘professional climbing’ is antithetical to adventure and freedom.
‘I was just doing my job’ leaves you open to being used by more powerful interests to do things that go against your values. That has often not led to good outcomes for the people or systems on the other side of the decision. Shirking personal responsibility is one of the classic defence mechanisms.
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If anyone doesn’t think they benefit from a capitalist system they’re mistaken
It's certainly been great for a few generations of people who appreciate upgrading to a larger TV every couple of years and who aren't too concerned about the climate apocalypse which is a direct result of this economic model :great: Their kids and their kids kids might come ot think differently
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Anyone without guilt throw the stone!
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Pete would rather throw the first gilt I expect.
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I'm not a capitalist (girl), I live in a capitalist world
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“We’re all swimming in the gutter - but some of us are circling the drain”
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It's hard to formulate a response to you Pete without it appearing either too rude or a personal attack, so I hope I manage to achieve it, if not, please accept that it isn't my intention!
What you call benefits I consider a gilded cage, and I think that the belief that actively playing the game gives you some form of control is delusional. You're simply lining your cage with some comfy cushions and soft furnishings. Unless your wealth numbers in the billions there won't be a seat on Space X to the new colony to escape from an exhausted, dying Earth (OK, a melodramatic scenario but not totally unrealistic, and a smart dude like Elon isn't pumping billions into space ex just for shits and giggles).
What indeed are the options for those who don't wish to participate in global capitalism? We can tinker at the edges by shopping locally, try to do skill swaps and barter etc, but the opportunity to step outside of it doesn't exist, although Yanis Varoufakis has some good ideas regarding alternative options - I recommend checking out his recent novel.
Getting back to the original reason for the post, we both cherish climbing and therefore blanch at the effects of globalism upon it, of which the James & Caro episode is but a symptom. Well, expand your field of view a little, and now consider the toxic effect of our ridiculous, gambling based decision making systems on all those other things which other people value - the arts, music, sport (just look at what has happened to football) even food. I sincerely believe there has to be another way, and equally if we don't find it we are fucked as a species, and a few ruffled cavers feathers are the least of our problems.