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the shizzle => news => Topic started by: gme on July 06, 2020, 12:21:19 pm

Title: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 12:21:19 pm
Much as it disappoints me to say it but the indoor trained comp climbers are going to end up being much better than those who take the more traditional outdoor route.

A new breed of mutants is on the way and they will make a mockery of the hard routes outside on their infrequent trips out. The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 06, 2020, 12:38:19 pm
A new breed of mutants is on the way and they will make a mockery of the hard routes outside on their infrequent trips out. The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors.

I wonder how many under 30s there are climbing >8c who didn't come through the comps as a kid? There's certainly a very strong crop at the moment with Jim Pope, Kieran, Hamish MacArthur, Will Bosi and more. Not a lot of interest in hard trad (perhaps understandably given their strengths).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Davo on July 06, 2020, 01:29:13 pm

[/quote]

I wonder how many under 30s there are climbing >8c who didn't come through the comps as a kid? There's certainly a very strong crop at the moment with Jim Pope, Kieran, Hamish MacArthur, Will Bosi and more. Not a lot of interest in hard trad (perhaps understandably given their strengths).
[/quote]

I have seen a video by Jim Pope that would suggest he has a fair interest in trad. Think it is Big Falls and Big Balls?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 06, 2020, 01:33:00 pm
I have seen a video by Jim Pope that would suggest he has a fair interest in trad. Think it is Big Falls and Big Balls?

Yes, Jim seems to be the exception. He also seems to have a very particular interest in doing hard routes on grit, not a lot of trad outside of that.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on July 06, 2020, 01:33:16 pm

I wonder how many under 30s there are climbing >8c who didn't come through the comps as a kid? There's certainly a very strong crop at the moment with Jim Pope, Kieran, Hamish MacArthur, Will Bosi and more. Not a lot of interest in hard trad (perhaps understandably given their strengths).

Depends a bit on what you mean by 'coming up through the comps' as I guess a lot of the younger generation will have done the odd comp here and there without it being a focus.

Had a little browse of the list (https://github.com/bourbonspecial/UKStrongPeople/blob/master/men_routes.md) and a few non-comp-ers stand out: Will Smith, Dawson brothers, Oli Grounsell, Haydn, Josh Ibbertson.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: yetix on July 06, 2020, 01:40:40 pm
Think Pete D did a fair few comps
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 06, 2020, 01:55:40 pm
Oli G and Josh I were both on the British junior team. Defining it that way could be viewed as too broad I guess, because most kids showing this sort of talent will be training and their coaches encouraging them to compete. If nothing else competitions are an easy structure for parents to understand, whereas getting out at a young age is more likely to require climbing parents.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 06, 2020, 02:00:30 pm
Yeah, with if you start young and are good then
- You're likely to end up doing comps to at least some extent
- You're likely to end up being very good at climbing if you don't quit, and burning off most people who started later
.. so you'd expect most good climbers to have come through comps to some extent. Not that I disagree with what I think gav was saying in that going tradding, or fondling damp holds after driving for an hour to crag, or brushing up dirty boulders/routes are shit training compared to just going training like the comp climbers do!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: T_B on July 06, 2020, 02:54:02 pm
Even the best climbers of my generation ‘came up through the comps’. We had comps in the early ‘90s dontcha know. I seem to remember Bransby being quite good. Also remember watching a teenage Ian Vickers pissing up E5s in Pembroke. Pretty sure he was quite good at comps too.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Orrincoley on July 06, 2020, 03:32:42 pm
Will Smith used to compete in all the youth comps for years, regularly making top 10 or even the odd podium in youth nationals I think.
Pete and Like Dawson were both on the GB Youth team for quite some time as well.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on July 06, 2020, 03:40:06 pm
Shows how good my knowledge of the comp scene is  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 05:09:50 pm
Even the best climbers of my generation ‘came up through the comps’. We had comps in the early ‘90s dontcha know. I seem to remember Bransby being quite good. Also remember watching a teenage Ian Vickers pissing up E5s in Pembroke. Pretty sure he was quite good at comps too.
It was totally different then Tom. Most were outdoor climbers who did comps, especially the two you mention.
I was more talking of the new generation who are fundamentally comp climbers and occasionally climb outside. I can see that in 5-10 years this will be the norm and the uk won’t have much to challenge them.
A classic example would be Janja who Did 9as for something to do and I have no doubt would climb 9b if she was vaguely interested.
I don’t know him but bet Will Bosi would happily forgo all his outdoor stuff for an Olympic ticket and he’s probably our best climber.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: T_B on July 06, 2020, 05:21:33 pm
I give it a few years. I don’t see it attracting enough money to be sustainable. The dynos are no longer exciting. There’s no proper measure of performance and no records to break. Kids who are driven to make a livelihood from sport will look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 06, 2020, 05:33:41 pm
I don’t know him but bet Will Bosi would happily forgo all his outdoor stuff for an Olympic ticket and he’s probably our best climber.

I don't think this is true. Will would have had an opportunity to qualify in Moscow at the end of March, but at the start of Feb he was crushing 9b, then in early March he was lapping Evolution in his attempts to climb Mutation. Not the behaviour of someone who was totally focussed on that Olympic slot.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Duma on July 06, 2020, 06:58:42 pm
Speak of the devil...

Will Bosi, Superman Sit
https://www.instagram.com/p/CCTzxXyjTB3/?igshid=sajnguapr4ze
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 07:16:24 pm
. Kids who are driven to make a livelihood from sport will look elsewhere.
Do you really think that’s what motivates them? 
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 07:18:56 pm
I don’t know him but bet Will Bosi would happily forgo all his outdoor stuff for an Olympic ticket and he’s probably our best climber.

I don't think this is true. Will would have had an opportunity to qualify in Moscow at the end of March, but at the start of Feb he was crushing 9b, then in early March he was lapping Evolution in his attempts to climb Mutation. Not the behaviour of someone who was totally focussed on that Olympic slot.
As I said I don’t know him but he’s always come across as someone who is more focused on the comps. He goes outside a bit between comps for a change and due to his comp training does hard stuff. Pretty much exactly what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 06, 2020, 07:22:50 pm
This isn't going outside and doing a few routes in between comps though. It heading out on multiday/season projects and trashing your skin right at the point that you'd be mid training cycle if you really wanted to qualify for the Olympics.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 06, 2020, 07:23:49 pm
Speak of the devil...

Will Bosi, Superman Sit
https://www.instagram.com/p/CCTzxXyjTB3/?igshid=sajnguapr4ze

He'll not have much left at this rate!

I can see that in 5-10 years this will be the norm and the uk won’t have much to challenge them.

I think this would be a bit of a shame if it came true (which I can see). Big part of climbing is the challenge, for me anyway.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 07:47:16 pm
This isn't going outside and doing a few routes in between comps though. It heading out on multiday/season projects and trashing your skin right at the point that you'd be mid training cycle if you really wanted to qualify for the Olympics.
That isn’t true. He did his hardest route in three days and has walked away from projects before.
If mutation was a priority he would have done it by now. Most sessions on it are a few days between comp training.
As far as I understand All his outdoor stuff fits round His comp training.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 06, 2020, 07:52:05 pm
Speak of the devil...

Will Bosi, Superman Sit
https://www.instagram.com/p/CCTzxXyjTB3/?igshid=sajnguapr4ze

He'll not have much left at this rate!

I can see that in 5-10 years this will be the norm and the uk won’t have much to challenge them.

I think this would be a bit of a shame if it came true (which I can see). Big part of climbing is the challenge, for me anyway.

Comp standards are only going to go up And the difficulty is infinite but in the uk our limit of rock Will mean that there isn’t anything to really challenge the future wads.
Maybe bouldering might but I can’t see it with routes.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 06, 2020, 08:04:29 pm
You're right that UK rock will run low on super hard routes, especially good ones, if only because it's easier for routes to be hard but possible with a long chunk of steep rock.. there'll be some hard boulder/route hybrids available, e.g. Belly of the Beast into Mutation would be pretty tough (8B into 9a+ = 9b/+???). Those operating at >9b are likely to have plenty of opportunity to travel though, same as megos and ondra. They have run out of most hard stuff on their own countries but still seem plenty psyched on rock.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on July 06, 2020, 09:57:55 pm
That isn’t true. He did his hardest route in three days and has walked away from projects before.
If mutation was a priority he would have done it by now. Most sessions on it are a few days between comp training.
As far as I understand All his outdoor stuff fits round His comp training.

I think this is downplaying the amount of time and effort Will has put in to mutation. It's by no means a shark/oak siege, but Im pretty sure he's had 10+ of sessions on it and has definitely done periods of specific small edge training in prep for it.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wood FT on July 06, 2020, 10:36:24 pm
Well, it begs the question - is Mutation actually 9b then?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Rob F on July 06, 2020, 10:43:33 pm
Errr, scuse me. Thought we weren't mentioning Shark and the Oak for the rest of the month...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ru on July 07, 2020, 08:13:35 am
And the difficulty is infinite but in the uk our limit of rock Will mean that there isn’t anything to really challenge the future wads.

Apart from climate change.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 07, 2020, 08:31:13 am
Well, it begs the question - is Mutation actually 9b then?

I’m guessing Will thinks it’s harder than La Capella since he totally pissed that  :-\
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 07, 2020, 10:06:23 am
And the difficulty is infinite but in the uk our limit of rock Will mean that there isn’t anything to really challenge the future wads.

Apart from climate change.

Unimportant trivia. The fact that there will be no 9cs to do and only one 9b to onsight is a far bigger issue.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 07, 2020, 10:16:09 am
That isn’t true. He did his hardest route in three days and has walked away from projects before.
If mutation was a priority he would have done it by now. Most sessions on it are a few days between comp training.
As far as I understand All his outdoor stuff fits round His comp training.

I think this is downplaying the amount of time and effort Will has put in to mutation. It's by no means a shark/oak siege, but Im pretty sure he's had 10+ of sessions on it and has definitely done periods of specific small edge training in prep for it.

You will know more than me but all his attempts seem to be snatched between comps. My question is would he miss comps to do a hard route and at this time i dont think he would.

I still think the future stars will come from the comp scene. They will grow up in the walls, follow the olympic dream until they either win, get sick of it or realise they cant get to the top and then some of them,not all, will move outside and due to the level of training they have done will not find things that hard.

Those that follow the more traditional route to the top that us old folks remember will be left in their wake.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 07, 2020, 10:24:06 am
Well, it begs the question - is Mutation actually 9b then?

Think Will didn't manage a 9a in Misja Pec (not sure how many sessions), a 9a+ in Santa Linya (got rained off, not sure how many sessions), and a 9a+? proj in Margalef (not sure how many sessions) on the same trip, so it may also be a question of things "fitting" or not, although obvs you'd expect Mutation to be his style, given he likes bouldery crimping...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 07, 2020, 10:36:03 am
You will know more than me but all his attempts seem to be snatched between comps. My question is would he miss comps to do a hard route and at this time i dont think he would.

I think we were talking at cross purposes here. I wasn't arguing that Will is prioritising outdoor climbing, I think you're right. My point was that if he's not sticking religiously to his training cycle then he's also not totally prioritising comp climbing. I'm not aware of the top end comp climbers nipping out to try 9a+ routes mid training cycle? I may well be wrong about that.

Quote from: gme
I still think the future stars will come from the comp scene.

Definitely.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 07, 2020, 10:51:19 am
You will know more than me but all his attempts seem to be snatched between comps. My question is would he miss comps to do a hard route and at this time i dont think he would.

 I'm not aware of the top end comp climbers nipping out to try 9a+ routes mid training cycle? I may well be wrong about that.

I think a lot of them do, seem to treat a trip to spain as a "light week" and tick a few 9a+s whilst there. I dont believe anything they do isnt planned.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 07, 2020, 03:43:18 pm
Quote from Kieran on Ray Woods Insta saying ‘enjoyed the process but doesn’t feel as good as doing well in a comp’. Incomprehensible and mind blowing quote to me but guess sums up the above discussion.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Footwork on July 07, 2020, 04:37:31 pm
Quote from Kieran on Ray Woods Insta saying ‘enjoyed the process but doesn’t feel as good as doing well in a comp’. Incomprehensible and mind blowing quote to me but guess sums up the above discussion.

I used to do a bit of running during college and doing well in a race always felt better than getting a PB round the park. This was regardless of what time I ran, but just being better than the competition that day gave you a proper buzz.

Climbing and running aren't that comparable though (and this was before strava so not like I could 'beat' any segments) but I see where he's coming from. There are probably loads of runners saying races are missing the point (medals are nice though).

I came into climbing the old trad way, sport and bouldering followed much later. I remember Vdiffs and Severes at Almscliff being the best thing ever. These wads will never know the feeling (and neither will I know 9a, 8c+, 8c....)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: AMorris on July 07, 2020, 04:41:11 pm
Well, it begs the question - is Mutation actually 9b then?

Think Will didn't manage a 9a in Misja Pec (not sure how many sessions), a 9a+ in Santa Linya (got rained off, not sure how many sessions), and a 9a+? proj in Margalef (not sure how many sessions) on the same trip, so it may also be a question of things "fitting" or not, although obvs you'd expect Mutation to be his style, given he likes bouldery crimping...

Although I don't think any of us would be too surprised to find out that Mutation is "a bit stiff for the grade"!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 07, 2020, 04:56:33 pm
Its pretty apparent from everyone who’s ever been near Mutation that it’s extremely fuckin nails rock hard.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: 36chambers on July 07, 2020, 05:05:33 pm
Its pretty apparent from everyone who’s ever been near Mutation that it’s extremely fuckin nails rock hard.

Does anyone know if it's change since it was first done, or was Steve just that ahead of the curve?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: spidermonkey09 on July 07, 2020, 06:21:14 pm
Also I thought it was basically already considered 9a+ despite never having had a repeat. Certainly thats what it was in my head regardless of it saying 9a on UKC.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 07, 2020, 07:16:14 pm
Its pretty apparent from everyone who’s ever been near Mutation that it’s extremely fuckin nails rock hard.

Does anyone know if it's change since it was first done, or was Steve just that ahead of the curve?

Just obscene at that style I think. His first grade 9 way back in 1998 too. Speculation but could It have been the worlds hardest at time?? Need Ondra for that one.  Was only Open Air at 9a+ I think -also 9a then . (Seems Akira’s not turned out to be a proper route, more hybrid type thing ).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: wasbeen on July 08, 2020, 10:13:47 am
One thing that is sometimes not appreciated, is the time and costs of competing.

For climbers in the GB youth team, typically this is around £5k per year and upwards of 15 weekends of competing (or Team training). Costs and time commitments are much higher for older catergories who compete in Europe. Pretty much all of this is self (parent) funded,  UK competitions and training are scattered to all corners, so typically require at least one or two nights’ accommodation for each event.

Competitions in themselves are certainly not the most efficient method of training (the body) e.g. often only 2-3 routes or 8-12 boulders in a weekend.

New style bouldering (and increasingly route climbing) is diverging from outdoor climbing. To train for this at a top level needs an exposure to a wide variety of holds and setting. This means, even when not attending comps, spending a lot of time travelling to different walls - you don't get strong sitting in the car. Much of this training will not be directly transferable to outdoor climbing.

So in summary, I think it is quite possible that the best climbing will come from a competition background. However, I am pretty sure it is not the most efficient way of excelling outdoors. I guess the question is whether young climbers have the motivation to train at the levels required to excel outdoors without the motivation of compettions?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: shark on July 08, 2020, 11:47:19 am
I DM’ed Will to get his thoughts

Quote from: Shark
Discussion on UKB currently about Comp climbers being the future of outdoor climbing in the UK and some of the discussion has focussed on you as to where your main interests/priorities lie at the moment, how you balance it, whether one discipline compromises or complements the other and bearing in mind your quick success on La Capella how hard you think Mutation is.

Quote from: Will Bosi
hope this answers it all!
For sure to be the best in competition it does mean just about giving up outdoors as I know many of other competitors don’t climb outside at all as they don’t care/like it. So if you want a shot at winning you really have to focus all your time indoor.

Currently for me the Olympics is by far my biggest focus and has been for the last couple years. This meant Last year I had only a handful of days out, as with training 3 three disciplines there just isn’t time.

I love rock climbing and many different long term goals but currently the Olympics is the only one with time pressure added to it, it only happens every 4 years and currently it’s going to change between Tokyo and Paris which means the competition I want to compete in being Tokyo will never happen again. World Cups happen every year and the rock as long as people respect it will always be there.

La Capella was my dream route, perfect in terms of style, length and hold type so it suited me perfectly. This meant that it went down really fast, sticking the last crux moves was right at my limit. Whereas the 9a I tried in Slovenia was the opposite(which is why I tried it) so I found it really hard, got close but not close enough I guess.

Mutation... for sure 9a+ no question there I don’t think, it’s actually my style. the difference between la Capella and Mutation is hold size, so I prefer much hard moves on decent sized crimps.

While Mutation is not so hard moves wise but on tiny crimps, my skin is really bad I think the holds on mutation become unusable when I try from the start and I’m sweating so much by the time I get there, over the time I’ve been trying it

I’ve got a lot stronger so I can now just about fix this problem by chalking up on some holds now but still I hit the top smallest crimps with wet hands(need to get stronger).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 08, 2020, 12:57:14 pm
Does Will still have a chance to qualify for Tokyo? I kind of lost track as to whether there was meant to have been another qualification event that was cancelled due to Covid.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: shark on July 08, 2020, 01:02:12 pm
From UKC With the European Championships due to be held in November, it is likely that the rest of Will's year will be based around peaking for the competition in Moscow. It's also the final competition for Olympic hopefuls to qualify, with just one stop available for Europeans. To successfully qualify, Will has to win or be the highest placed eligible non-qualified climber. (https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/07/superman_sit_start_font_8b+_for_will_bosi-72380)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Paul B on July 08, 2020, 01:47:59 pm
Even the best climbers of my generation ‘came up through the comps’. We had comps in the early ‘90s dontcha know. I seem to remember Bransby being quite good. Also remember watching a teenage Ian Vickers pissing up E5s in Pembroke. Pretty sure he was quite good at comps too.

I'd say the same for mine, especially considering the junior women; Twyford, Findlay etc. (although Gemma Powell dominated from memory; this could be wildly incorrect).

Perhaps less so in the men's but in the junior events Smitton was one to beat (and he's hardly sh*t outside).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 08, 2020, 02:01:25 pm
Thanks Shark, seems like a tough ask but be great if he gets the spot.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: shark on July 08, 2020, 02:38:38 pm
Thanks Shark, seems like a tough ask but be great if he gets the spot.

Do you know which non-qualified climbers are likely to be the ones for him to beat?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: RobK on July 08, 2020, 03:10:01 pm
Thanks Shark, seems like a tough ask but be great if he gets the spot.

Do you know which non-qualified climbers are likely to be the ones for him to beat?

Was looking at this the other day. Stefano Ghisolfi, Jernej Kruder, Sascha Lehmann, Yannick Flohe, Manuel Cornu and Jan Kriz all beat him in the combined at the last World Champs and don't have places yet.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 08, 2020, 03:15:12 pm
https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/olympic-games/tokyo-2020

I think this list is up to date for those who have places although I’m not 100%. Jongwon and Jernej notable missing names at the mo but not sure how they will do in combined.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 08, 2020, 03:24:28 pm
Stefano Ghisolfi, Jernej Kruder, Sascha Lehmann, Yannick Flohe, Manuel Cornu and Jan Kriz all beat him in the combined at the last World Champs and don't have places yet.

I crossed out the ones that I think can't qualify by virtue of full country quotas. If Will has a good comp it's certainly possible. One hard-to-predict aspect is how many people compete who have already qualified, since this affects the scoring too - so Ondra might compete, and by competing mean that Will does/doesn't qualify if the maths works out right vs other competitors who can still get a place
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: RobK on July 08, 2020, 03:30:08 pm
I crossed out the ones that I think can't qualify by virtue of full country quotas.

Had forgotten about this, thanks!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 08, 2020, 07:27:51 pm
One hard-to-predict aspect is how many people compete who have already qualified, since this affects the scoring too - so Ondra might compete, and by competing mean that Will does/doesn't qualify if the maths works out right vs other competitors who can still get a place

This is a very weird aspect of the scoring. It would make more sense for the qualifying to be scored only on those eligible, but still not fair due to the speed head to head. There are some interesting scenarios as well where one competitor can benefit disproportionately from someone else's mistake, leapfrogging someone else despite no change in their performances.

Anyway, key point is only one European place. It's a big ask!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 11:11:01 am
There is a short interview on UKC with Kieran Forrestt about him doing LA.

Interesting quote at the end which sums up what my point was about the future WADs more likely to come from a comp background than the outdoor route.

"I still have goals I want to achieve competitively in Seniors. I also think the discipline of training focuses you on improving technique and strength which has allowed me to get onto routes like Liquid Ambar."

The level of focused training that is now happening for the comps and the standard that your required to be at to do well in them is going to to lead to the stuff being done outside not being that hard. Other than Ondra i think all of the top route climbers of this generation have come from this background. Schubert, Megos, Ghisolfi.  Also Ondra often seems to have upped his levels after a period focusing on comp training.

Contentious but i think outdoor climbing basically gets in the way of progress and I think the grades will go up a notch after the olympics next year.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 12:33:55 pm
Much of the above seems to make sense. However we're talking more about repeats of existing hard routes and less about establishing new hard routes. It's still progress of a sort - progressing the pack of hard repeaters. But not progressing new climbs at cutting-edge levels.The two things possibly require very different mindsets and motivations. Not many people doing the new stuff, are the more comp-focused climbers bothered?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 10, 2020, 01:09:25 pm
I guess it depends whether you’re talking about actually bolting and cleaning or just climbing open projects? Can imagine some of these companies wads having a week holiday in Spain and Sharma pointing them at a 9b+ to try. Likewise when you see what Schubert did in a couple of days in Magic Wood, you can imagine him doing and 8C and above FA between training if it suited him.

I think actual bolting and discovering new boulders is still going to be the mainstay if hoary old frontiersmen.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 02:21:36 pm
I totally agree but suggest these hoary old frontiersman will be ex comp climbers. I guess fair few of them will turn there attention to outside once they are past there best at comps.

Other than Ondra not many of the cutting edge bolt there own routes now to be honest, generally go round mopping up old projects that were bolted by people who couldn't do them. Most of Sharmas early stuff, including Biography, was and i dont think megos, schubert or Ghisolfi have bolted anything (the later only recently).

I am not sure about Mutation or his other stuff at the Tor but i know Leachy bolted rainshadow and northern lights and Paul Ingham bolted Overshadow. North star was an old project(maybe pingham or Steve Dunning/Gresham) as well so only Rainman is steves own work.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 02:22:34 pm
PS this is the kind of shit i come on here for not politics or virus stuff. What the site was about years ago.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 02:28:03 pm
Yeah agree with you there, tis a climbing site and a bit of politics and current affairs is fine, but 5 people endlessly shit-talking about politics, covid and trump loses appeal after a while. (and yes I'm aware I'm guilty of it!)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on July 10, 2020, 02:34:14 pm
Slightly off topic, did Dave Macleod ever do any comps?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 10, 2020, 03:04:45 pm
I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: ali k on July 10, 2020, 03:05:53 pm
Slightly off topic, did Dave Macleod ever do any comps?
He did at least one of the BUSA comps when he was doing his degree, around the same time Dave Barrans was competing for Manchester. Can’t remember how he did in it but Barrans used to win everything. No idea about proper comps though.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Liamhutch89 on July 10, 2020, 03:10:38 pm
On what draws climbers to comps vs outdoors, i'm sure some part of it must be sponsorship and career related, but then I wonder if comp climbers actually do better in that regard?

Excluding Honnold who has enjoyed one-off crossover appeal and Ondra who does a bit of both better than everyone, my guess would be that those more known for their outdoor achievements and, perhaps even more importantly, portraying the 'lifestyle' element of climbing (Sharma, Woods, Webb, et al.) do better from sponsorship than the top comp climbers. But I may be totally wrong on that.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on July 10, 2020, 03:11:32 pm
Cheers, I had a cursory rapid google and didn't find any evidence - i'd guess he would shout about it somewhere if he won any "proper" comps etc..
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 03:17:19 pm
I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.

So says the 40 year old hippy nature loving grit fondler. My kids dont give a flying fuck about any of that and whilst not into climbing are only interested in the latest footy and rugby players not that England won the world cup in 1966/2003 nor stories about the history of it all.

I think to most people coming through climbing walls climbing is a sport just like any other and unfortunately the canvas isn't relevant anymore.

I must point out i am not saying this is a bad thing, just different.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 10, 2020, 03:32:52 pm
That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after.

I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 04:12:36 pm
That's all a bit jumpers for goalposts JB (but I like it).

Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

I wonder if the added drive that comes from competing and which seems like nectar to these indoor comp climbers is also what drives forward standards outside - when the competitive instinct gets transferred out to the crag by indoor adversaries trying the same projects? 
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 04:19:34 pm
30 year old 8cs are basically piss in the bigger scheme of things and any of the kids who compete at a world level would walk up it if they were bothered.

Its us old buggers who keep the myths going.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on July 10, 2020, 04:22:50 pm
Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Where does this one-upmanship end? Are the wads of the future going to rock up to LPT, do a few laps on LA in a down expedition suit and a pair of ankle weights then head home for another fingerboard session?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: galpinos on July 10, 2020, 04:26:57 pm
I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.

That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

*Jerry's book does talk about comps but it's not the comps that made Jerry a legendary figure......
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 04:27:49 pm
Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Where does this one-upmanship end? Are the wads of the future going to rock up to LPT, do a few laps on LA in a down expedition suit and a pair of ankle weights then head home for another fingerboard session?
Just do it in greasy connies.

While we're on the topic of LPT, indoor wads, and progressing standards. There's a fully bolted new proj bang in the middle of LPT that will likely be 9a+ or harder. What could possibly (or to us, should) be more enticing to a young wad than to make the sort of history JB's talking about? Coming third indoors? :thumbsdown:

We're interested in Neil Carson because of his new routes - Big Bang chief among them. Not so much because he did alright in comps at some point. Could be the same for whoever puts up the LPT proj, bit more of legacy than a comp result.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 04:30:19 pm
Just do it in greasy connies.

While we're on the topic of LPT, indoor wads, and progressing standards. There's a fully bolted new proj bang in the middle of LPT that will likely be 9a+ or harder. What could possibly (or to us, should) be more enticing to a young wad than to make the sort of history JB's talking about? Coming third indoors? :thumbsdown:

Bronze at olympics or world champs i would suggest would be better.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 04:33:59 pm
I think you're being a little bit provocative for the sake of the debate there. No way, years later, that most climbers will remember (or particularly care) who came third in the Olympic climbing. Like nobody really cares very much who were the beaten finalists in world cups or euro championships. It just doesn't resonate emotionally unless you're a very special sort of stat-o-tron.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 04:34:41 pm
I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.

That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

*Jerry's book does talk about comps but it's not the comps that made Jerry a legendary figure......

I am not suggesting that indoors will repace outdoors more that the apprentice route for the best will be different.

Most kids get there fix through youtube or similar not books now anyway and it will only be more so in the future. I must admit even as an old fella i find watching the comps far more exciting than 99% of the outdoor climbing stuff.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 04:37:24 pm
I think you're being a little bit provocative for the sake of the debate there. No way would most remember (or particularly care) who came third in the Olympic climbing. Like nobody really cares very much who were the beaten finalists in world cups or euro championships. It just doesn't resonate emotionally unless you're a very special sort of stat-o-tron.

You miss understood. I dont mean what would be most memorable to the general public i was talking about the athlete. I bet the lad who did LA would prefer a bronze medal than that 1st ascent any day of the week.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 10, 2020, 04:59:02 pm

, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new

Plus no chalkbag and a 8mm rope.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 10, 2020, 05:04:39 pm

That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

I agree entirely looking back at current climbing history, but indoor climbing and climbing comps are in a different position in terms of popularity to where they have been previously.

I think it’s the nature of any competitive events to create spectacle and legends, but whether this leads to any coffee table books time will tell. It will certainly lead to a lot of YouTube clicks though!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 10, 2020, 05:07:04 pm

Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Maybe this says as much of your current crop of ‘wads’ in N Wales when it comes to sport climbing as much as about the new breed 😆
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: wasbeen on July 10, 2020, 05:12:43 pm
Competition climbing could end up being a bit like tennis. You could be number 5 in the UK and making peanuts (or a loss), barely known outside the community. Once you retire though burn-out and injury there may not be much to show other than a few medals from events in obscure places that the other athletes didn't go to because they thought they might get food poisoning.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 10, 2020, 05:29:08 pm
Competition climbing could end up being a bit like tennis. You could be number 5 in the UK and making peanuts (or a loss), barely known outside the community. Once you retire though burn-out and injury there may not be much to show other than a few medals from events in obscure places that the other athletes didn't go to because they thought they might get food poisoning.

Was interesting with this is a comparison so had a look. Jamie Murray is current British number 5 with a net worth of $6 million. Looks like most of the top British tennis people are worth a million or two.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 10, 2020, 05:49:04 pm
Is funny that I’m sat in van outside the cave waiting to go to LPT and there’s a 12 year-old here getting on Statement, a 15? Year-old on Infanticide (8c) and Kieren trying Big Bang. So maybe ther is some allure to outdoors. Or maybe it’s all distraction until the serious business of plastic comps resumes.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: nai on July 10, 2020, 05:58:01 pm
I imagine his worth is probably about right but that will be from doubles, where he has ranked world no 1 and is still quite high. A no. 5 singles ranking doesn't sound right, don't think he's played for ages. 
Current UK no 1, Dan Evans has career earnings of $3,000,000 in 14 years, probably some from sponsorship too but I'd guess with all the travel, coaches, physio etc there's not a lot of that left.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 10, 2020, 06:00:29 pm
Have not even considered the financial side.

Don’t know much about it but would guess Shauna is making a lot more than Steve.
She is probably a good example as probably our only true world class comp climber, she is well ahead of all other females in uk, has climbed 8B+ but appears to have very little interest in outdoors or at best it’s a distant 2nd.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: wasbeen on July 10, 2020, 06:14:11 pm
Have not even considered the financial side.

Don’t know much about it but would guess Shauna is making a lot more than Steve.
She is probably a good example as probably our only true world class comp climber, she is well ahead of all other females in uk, has climbed 8B+ but appears to have very little interest in outdoors or at best it’s a distant 2nd best.

More than money, I guess she is pretty much the only person in the UK who can accurately describe themselves as a full-time professional climber (Molly, Will?).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Aussiegav on July 10, 2020, 07:25:31 pm
I would be really interested if any of these uber wads leave a legacy / or have ambitions to a have a legacy in climbing like those did in the 80's & 90's.

When was the last cult climbing movie? yet week in week out we see new movies published and to be fair, they morph into one.

Maybe its becoming like tennis, and other sports like surfing, where the charisma and personalities are forgone for the pursuit of excellence and corporate appeal?

The other thing to consider is that we live in the 10mins of fame generation. Perhaps, for these guys at the elite level, doing routes/boulder problems of yesteryear or outside just doesn't generate the 'likes' & 'shares' from their peers. 
maybe for them, doing route routes from the 80s, 90s & 00s is a novelty retro thing??

in regards to the OP, i imagine all countries will have their hardest climbing indoors,  its where you can control the environment most to push the difficultly with least effort.

Look at skateboarding, gymnastics (once an outdoor pursuit), surfing (new wave pools). the level difficulty will rise, but its probably going to really boring to watch unless you're doing it.

post edit:
(I wasn't being critical or judgemental, we all have our reasons for climbing. More of a reflective questioning)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Yossarian on July 11, 2020, 12:26:17 pm
I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.

This, exactly. It reminds me of that Fred Nicole bit in Hueco at the beginning of one of the Masters of Stone films - something along the lines of, “More than the climbing, I am impressed by the creativity of the nature”...

I started writing about how, as the parent of an 8 year old comp climber in her first season, I found the whole experience surprisingly toxic. That’s mostly off topic but, even the the younger age groups, it was so competitive and stressful that I can see why most kids might end up viewing outdoor climbing as an unwelcome distraction, or an annoying thing they get asked by relatives.

Personally, my proudest moment of the whole season was when she told one of her coaches she would rather be in Font, shortly before coming second in her first Blokfest.

In terms of organised sport and flying fucks given, I went to a school where the entire social hierarchy was based on one’s ability at rugby - a sport like many others I now express absolutely zero interest in. Climbing was something I discovered through both a maverick relative and an amazingly-inspiring teacher, and which provided the perfect blend of nonconformity / danger / adventure. It’s quite depressing that, these days a 15-year old might be more syked about getting over-caffeinated sugary drink company sponsorship and a signature hang board than the prospect of dossing in Verdon for a month after their GCSEs...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: spidermonkey09 on July 11, 2020, 12:55:59 pm
Interesting discussion. I think I fall somewhere between JB's "jumpers for goalposts" vision and GME's slightly more cynical interpretation. I do think that the comp trained youth are streets ahead of crimp hardened outdoor climbers in terms of their potential to get up hard stuff.You can see this in microcosm lower down the food chain in the current UK sport climbing scene where strong guys in their early 20's honed on boards are pissing up 8's in a few sessions through sheer surplus power!

Regarding cult climbing films, I'm not sure something can be 'cult' if its part of the mainstream can it? Climbing is now firmly part of popular culture and so by definition any film that becomes halfway popular also is surely. Perhaps the closest example is Ricky Bells stuff.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Yossarian on July 11, 2020, 01:07:45 pm
In terms of hard climbing (and I realise this is something I know much less about), for every indoor uberwad who’s figured out how to translate his or her ability to rock there are a dozen or more “look at my 159 / 1-armed-three-course-burrito-challenge” Insta-twats who make a lot of noise but get shut down everywhere except Magic Wood / narrowly scrape themselves up a holiday 8b over a 2 week trip.

London and the SE is rife with this sort of stuff, which is why I thought Jim Pope’s vid was so great because it might persuade some of them that there’s more to climbing than flexing on the rings at Yonder.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: BRidal on July 11, 2020, 06:48:45 pm
I had written out a long reply to this thread since I felt obliged to defend my generation a bit, but the site timed me out and deleted my spiel so you're getting this instead.

Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit. We'll get around to doing hard stuff outdoors when we're too old for triple dyno's.  :worms:
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Mark Lloyd on July 11, 2020, 07:47:41 pm
Maybe you should take your triple dynos outside Billy's, Johnny Dawes probably has a few old projects
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Yossarian on July 11, 2020, 08:02:07 pm
Your indoor stuff / training, etc is obviously totally hardcore / rad and you are also at the top of your game. I'm not dissing you in the slightest. I just quite enjoy hearing about people who can't do 147 ticking hard 8Bs in quick time vs (far less talented but) strong wall wads making a massive meal of outdoor board problems.

In the same vein as the Jim Pope vid, I maintain that Toru Nakajima's Alone on the Peak is one of the most profound climbing films of the last decade or so. I find it mind-blowing that a comp climber so young could come to the UK so ill-prepared in some areas (language) but so exquisitely-prepared in others (syke / ability / tenacity) and rip everything up. Please don't tell me he was more excited about some comp results that season.

Ditto Ondra's syke to try Belly Full of Bad Berries, and having the contrition to admit that, despite having the greatest ever accumulation of climbing-specific skill / strength / self-knowledge and determination, he knew he was going to flail on it.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 11, 2020, 08:13:09 pm

In the same vein as the Jim Pope vid, I maintain that Toru Nakajima's Alone on the Peak is one of the most profound climbing films of the last decade or so. I find it mind-blowing that a comp climber so young could come to the UK so ill-prepared in some areas (language) but so exquisitely-prepared in others (syke / ability / tenacity) and rip everything up. Please don't tell me he was more excited about some comp results that season.


That crack climbing apprenticeship has already served Ondra well in one comp, and if Bishton is down for the Olympics I’m sure he’ll get another crack there!

All of Toru’s video output that I’ve seen has been really great, his take on climbing seems to be so deep and thoughtful. Worth checking out the Lucid Dreaming vid https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oPBOfakyMg&feature=emb_title and the waterfall climbing one of you haven’t watched them
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 11, 2020, 09:35:39 pm
Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit.

Tell that to an onsight ascent of Salathe... ;)

I find two things interesting here:
1. One route? What about many routes? Comparing multiple comps to one route is potentially a bit of a straw man, it's like comparing doing 1 quick tick to 1 project. The comparison would surely be a season of comps to a season of climbing all over the world?
2. The implication is that how rewarding climbing is is purely based on how hard it is, unless I've misunderstood? Are there no reward points of badassness? E.g. I find 50m routes more rewarding than boulders because I find them more badass and enjoy the process more. So I'm more pleased to have done Tom et je ris than any 8B I've done, even though it's less challenging. I wonder if this is a mindset difference between those coming up through comps vs through outdoors? Or just me misunderstanding your post.. (not me dissing boulders, insert your preference there, be it big walls, cave sport routes, aesthetic aretes etc)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 11, 2020, 09:41:04 pm
Good discussion guys. I'm probably somewhere in the middle viewpoint as far as any qualitive aspect goes, but I do agree with gme that the potential for comp climbers with their extreme physical prowess at climbing movement (as opposed to just campussing) is likely to be an increasingly effective springboard to hard outside #sends
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 12, 2020, 10:32:54 am
I had written out a long reply to this thread since I felt obliged to defend my generation a bit, but the site timed me out and deleted my spiel so you're getting this instead.

Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit. We'll get around to doing hard stuff outdoors when we're too old for triple dyno's.  :worms:

Billy. Nothing to defend. I am all for the comps and think it’s going to take things forward. My post was never meant as a negative at all.

I am not saying one route is better than the other but think that the future boundaries are going to be pushed by ex comp climbers who’s level of training is going to make them physically much better.

Most people on here are old and come from a what to us is a traditional route where new routes etc are held in high regard. Unfortunately for your generation this isn’t going to be the case in the Uk as there isn’t much left, especially ground breaking.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 12, 2020, 10:52:19 pm
I think there's a better alternative future that hasn't really been considered by many yet. Whether it ever happens is anyone's guess and I suppose depends on a whole lot of factors, not least someone with a wad of cash and influence getting the ball rolling.
That is, permanent artificial boulder problems. Could be indoors or out. Stand alone lines of the utmost quality and difficulty. Perhaps designed/set by the best comp setters and hard FAers. Perhaps with a cash prize for whoever's gets the FA. A new type of competition could be built around sets of them. With easier but equally good lines built beside them. Then left in place for all to try afterwards.
This would retain many of the best aspects of natural climbing and first ascents, whilst bypassing the ultimate show stopper I.e. the ever increasing difficulty of finding the next grade of climb. As things stand it's not the ability of climbers that has slowed growth in outdoor standards, it's the fact that every time grades go up the gap between too easy and impossible gets smaller and finding natural features that fit in that gap eventually gets nigh on impossible.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: colin8ll on July 13, 2020, 07:59:51 am
There's a gym in Sweden with a permanent route and associated competition. It's branded as The Project https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/02/the_project_-_a_unique_competition_in_stockholm-70948


Fwiw I can't imagine climbers getting motivated enough by something contrived to really put in the work to push things forward here. I think king lines will reign supreme for some time to come. Sharma certainly doesn't seem to be running out of great looking DWS lines.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 13, 2020, 09:41:41 am
There's a gym in Sweden with a permanent route and associated competition. It's branded as The Project https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/02/the_project_-_a_unique_competition_in_stockholm-70948


Fwiw I can't imagine climbers getting motivated enough by something contrived to really put in the work to push things forward here. I think king lines will reign supreme for some time to come. Sharma certainly doesn't seem to be running out of great looking DWS lines.
This is only half of what I have in mind. These climbs are still coloured plastic blobs on plywood and hence no more inspiring, and little more permanent than any other indoor climb.
To be properly inspiring and permanent (and for practical purposes I'm only thinking boulders here, not routes) you'd want sculpted pseudo-rock installations. Kind of like the built boulders you get in some city parks, but of far higher quality, and with well designed stand alone lines, rather than loads of random holds for making eliminates. The whole point is, there is no practical reason (excluding money) that boulder problems every bit as good as the best natural lines can't be built. And if you can build something as good as the best lines in Rocklands/Font/Grampians etc, it stands to reason you can build things even better and crucially for this debate, harder.
With the right construction you could build a master copy, laser scan it and then have copies built all over the world ( a la Moonboard) and a prize for the first filmed and witnessed ascent.
Making the world's hardest boulder might be an iterative process with multiple top level climber adding a move each to the prototype copy, before the finished article is fixed and the FA attempted.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 10:38:52 am
I was going to say similar Bonjoy. I think that the downfall of high level comps is the temporary nature of the competition "landscape". Once the Olympics is over, the final routes and problems will be packed away and never climbed again (speed excepted obv.)

Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.

There could possibly be a market for replicating Olympic routes, or doing as Bonjoy says above, otherwise the routes on rock are the best "immovable" benchmark of your performance as a climber to see how you measure up to others.

Agree this is a great discussion.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 13, 2020, 10:52:32 am
Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports?

Although subtly different, because the arena/playing field is fixed, I would think of many other sports as being the broadly the same - football, tennis, boxing, hockey, judo etc. You can't replicate playing against a certain team/opponent at a certain point in time for those sports - there's the same fleeting nature to the challenge, and it's hard to compare the best now to the best of bygone eras (unlike running, jumping, throwing etc).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 13, 2020, 10:54:28 am

Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.

The Mountain biking courses, and I guess to a lesser extent the cycling road race and any running road race courses, although of course they are still there post Olympics, just a little harder to access! Also the kayak stuff, they normally have a special course for that stuff to I think?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Nutty on July 13, 2020, 10:57:55 am
Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.
BMX, mountain bike, canoe/kayak? Marathon, triathlon and road cycling to a degree (the courses won't be the same anywhere else)?

(Sorry, just seen teestub covered most of these).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 11:10:14 am
AFAIK, all white water sports are in artificial environments these days, easy to replicate the Olympic course by placing the gates in the same place.

Probably right of BMX and MTB, although the courses are probably left in place, IDK.

Also true about the distance events, although in theory all of these would still be there if you wanted to run or cycle them at 2 am to avoid traffic, it's not like they've ceased to exist.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 11:12:07 am
All the skiing and snowboarding events. Except maybe ski-jump. But even the 'standardised' ski-jumps in different locations have different prevailing weather conditions.

So apart from all of these, climbing is unique.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wil on July 13, 2020, 11:15:56 am
Bouldering and Lead routes both have software which can be used to design them now. Percy told me that this was commonly used for lead, but new for bouldering and he wasn't sure if it would be useful for him when setting problems as bouldering has a bit more "feel" to the setting. It would be easy for the models of the routes to be logged in the software and saved for the future though, so replicating the problems precisely will be possible.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 11:17:09 am
I like the artificial boulder idea and am aware of some in the Sheffield parks. Has there been any 'good' ones created yet? If not what are the barriers, apart from money, to creating something amazing in the high 7s / low 8s for the keen?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: BRidal on July 13, 2020, 11:27:12 am
A bit of intentional stirring of the pot in my previous post, I think it's quite simple in that if you have competitions in mind when you're training that is where you also seek the reward, succeeding outside feels more like a bonus. But that changes as soon as your focus changes, which i'm sure it will for many.
The artificial boulder/route idea actually appeals to me a lot, it removes a lot of the logistical factors that complicates climbing hard outside, making the pursuit of difficulty far more achievable, and all it takes to be legitimised is the acceptance of a reasonable portion of the community, it only takes a couple instagram posts to get people excited about a crag nowadays, i'm don't think this would be much different.How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: duncan on July 13, 2020, 11:27:56 am
Bring Back Broughton!

Isn't the schoolroom all about fixed problems with some historical resonance?  Are there any schoolroom 'Last Great Problems' still to do? 

Mr Moon could commission some wads to set LGPs on his eponymous board (or quite possibly set them himself).

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 11:37:40 am
All the skiing and snowboarding events. Except maybe ski-jump. But even the 'standardised' ski-jumps in different locations have different prevailing weather conditions.

So apart from all of these, climbing is unique.

If you look, you'll note I did use the word "Summer". Winter is very different, conditions change minute to minute, remember Alan Baxter's medal when conditions got very Scottish very quickly.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 11:40:07 am
I like the artificial boulder idea and am aware of some in the Sheffield parks. Has there been any 'good' ones created yet? If not what are the barriers, apart from money, to creating something amazing in the high 7s / low 8s for the keen?

The Cunningar Loop ones in Glasgow have some pretty hard problems on them, although they are rather eliminate in nature. They were bespoke though, but I guess not impossible to recreate.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: BRidal on July 13, 2020, 11:44:38 am
Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit.

Tell that to an onsight ascent of Salathe... ;)

I find two things interesting here:
1. One route? What about many routes? Comparing multiple comps to one route is potentially a bit of a straw man, it's like comparing doing 1 quick tick to 1 project. The comparison would surely be a season of comps to a season of climbing all over the world?

Touché

Surprisingly I hadn't considered onsighting big walls, I won't be impressed until Pete Whit adds a sub 7 speed time to his CV though ;)

I hold climbers who perform across disciplines and styles in very high regard, probably because variety of movement is more what I'm interested in coming from comps. But in terms of leaving a legacy, I think it more comes from excellence in a narrower style, and huge amounts of time invested in to single bits of rock. Which is a very different kind of challenge
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 12:09:24 pm
Loads of interesting stuff.

On bonjoys point I don’t see another option in the uk as we will run out of rock. If we want hard stuff here it’s going to have to be artificial. Think more routes than boulders. Big outdoor lead walls maybe with fixed routes that are not changed.

On the replication of walls The moonboard proves there is a desire for this with 40k+ people using it. Very basic though and hardly classic   

The school shows how and indoor wall can have history just as much as outside first ascents. Maybe a venue could be built that could generate the same thing. I love the idea of having just one problem on a section of wall but can’t see how it’s commercially viable.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 13, 2020, 12:19:56 pm
How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?
In the perfect world each boulder would be in an air conditioned space, at a fixed temperature, humidity, and altitude. In the real world, conditions would be less standardised. But this is the case to a greater or lesser extent for all other sports with fixed benchmarks and doesn't prove too problematic.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: wasbeen on July 13, 2020, 01:01:42 pm
How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?
In the perfect world each boulder would be in an air conditioned space, at a fixed temperature, humidity, and altitude. In the real world, conditions would be less standardised. But this is the case to a greater or lesser extent for all other sports with fixed benchmarks and doesn't prove too problematic.

The Walltopia wall in Sofia is inetersting - the holds stay in the same place but the holds are lit for different routes - like a giant moon board:

https://www.walltopia.com/en/projects-category/item/376-boulderland

Wound certainly make setting lead walls easier/cheaper

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 01:05:41 pm
I think the argument that the UK will run out of rock for harder routes needs examining. There's clearly some truth to it, but there doesn't need to be loads of options at the harder grades - each one will take a lot of effort and time.
I know of one location in Ireland that will have 9b's and harder of world-class quality. Flatanger-style caves. No it isn't 'the UK' but it's accessible to all UK climbers who are psyched.

I think much comes down to priorities and motivation to keep trying something that isn't on your doorstep, rather than the routes not being out there. If climbers are motivated to bolt them and work for the routes then there is amazing stuff to go for if you're a 'hoary frontiersman' (love that phrase) who can pull like fuck.

As mentioned before there's an open proj 9a+ on LPT. Others elsewhere in the UK.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 02:41:32 pm
I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 13, 2020, 03:10:15 pm
I suspect a 9a+ project on LPT could be demoralisingly conditions dependant. The relatively modest grade by world standards not reflecting the effort and heartache required to get everything to align to get it done. When being at the cutting edge of standards requires total dedication to training it's easy to see why you might not be motivated to risk throwing a lot of time at something involving a lot of uncontrollable random factors, and a relatively modest reward (on paper).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: 36chambers on July 13, 2020, 03:20:18 pm
In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

Have places like Malham and Kilnsey given their hardest lines now? Not including ridiculous traverses or whatever.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 03:38:14 pm
I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

I agree with the sentiments about 9a+ on LPT.

But not about the island venues. These are places a wad could easily spend a week on a comfortable campsite living cheaply. The weather is good and the season is long. I think in people's imaginations it's like going to the ends of the earth in winter!
If Ondra can be bothered to tour around and visit Malham/Kilnsey and the even the Tor - camping at Malham I believe, then it isn't unreasonable for top wads living in the UK to spend some time bolting and projecting world-class 9b-9cs in an 80m cave of immaculate rock a half day's travel away.
I think there's an element of mistakenly thinking cutting edge climbers want it all on a plate when people have these debates - but when you look at what the really top climbers actually do, they put in the travel and the hard graft.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 03:40:24 pm
You mean this?

https://www.steve-mcclure.com/articles/142-inishmor-irelands-new-super-venue
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on July 13, 2020, 03:49:54 pm
Makes me want to learn how to use a bolt gun (though I wont be bolting up those 9bs, sorry!)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 03:54:06 pm
You mean this?

https://www.steve-mcclure.com/articles/142-inishmor-irelands-new-super-venue


Yes. I've been doing new routes there for the last 3 years, visiting a few times each year. I'm going next week.
It isn't the case that there are no good hard new things to do. It's just a lot of people believe that there isn't.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 03:59:04 pm
TBF, it does look fucking amazing.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 03:59:25 pm
I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

I agree with the sentiments about 9a+ on LPT.

But not about the island venues. These are places a wad could easily spend a week on a comfortable campsite living cheaply. The weather is good and the season is long. I think in people's imaginations it's like going to the ends of the earth in winter!
If Ondra can be bothered to tour around and visit Malham/Kilnsey and the even the Tor - camping at Malham I believe, then it isn't unreasonable for top wads living in the UK to spend some time bolting and projecting world-class 9b-9cs in an 80m cave of immaculate rock a half day's travel away.
I think there's an element of mistakenly thinking cutting edge climbers want it all on a plate when people have these debates - but when you look at what the really top climbers actually do, they put in the travel and the hard graft.
I have seen pics and talked to a few who have been and whilst it looks really good most say the opposite about conditions.  Does it not suffer damp like most coastal areas. Tides? Heard swell is a bit of an issue and that coast gets lots.
I still think to develop stuff there will be difficult when compared to oliana, ceuse and even flatanger.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 04:09:26 pm
I've made over ten visits over the last three years and know the place well:
Tides are mostly irrelevant, it's all non-tidal. Swell can be a concern if a large swell combined with a high tide but in over ten visits swell has only once been an issue and that was a time I was there bolting by myself in December in a storm - when the 'swell' was clearing the 45 metre high cliff! (I have footage).
Conditions - it's south facing and a complete sun-trap. Grease is nowhere near the issue it is on LPT (and that's not 'that' bad compared to the Diamond). The deep caves slightly more, but really not much of an issue. We've had more issue with the sun, honestly it can get baking there in March.
The folk from Sheffield dabbled a little bit for a few days - obvs Ste Mac's dabbling includes onsighting 8b and flash FA of 8b/+. They barely scratched the surface.

Actually - disregard all that. It's too far, too smeggy, too hard, too complicated and too expensive. Stay away.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 04:28:25 pm
Why are people not going ? Maybe you need to invite ondra over and bolt a free lines for him.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 04:34:33 pm
I imagine he'd totally love the place: Flatanger-on-Sea.

People don't go because most people are herd-based. Which is fine by me. But when I read people here saying there aren't cool places to do amazing new hard stuff in our collection of little islands I can't help wanting to point out that actually there are and it just takes a little bit (not a lot) of gumption.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 13, 2020, 04:40:38 pm
Have places like Malham and Kilnsey given their hardest lines now? Not including ridiculous traverses or whatever.

There's stuff to be done, but there'll be a fine line between what is/isn't doable due to the fact that you can't get bottom-to-top difficulty out of many of these things so they'll be very bouldery.
There may be some very hard ways through the big Kilnsey roof, but I'm not sure if they'd go or not (obvious gaps, but maybe a couple of holds short of doable?)... Possible extension to Northern Lights, but would have a very good rest at the chains and no idea whether the top would be easy/hard/impossible. Magnetic North may or may not be doable since all the holds fell off.. Brandenburg gate.. Multiple cornice projects (e.g. direct finish to Malcolm X - there are holds but it looks like font 8hard, hard enough to put me off bolting it) so there may well be half a dozen bouldery 9b or 9b+s to be found, or there may be nothing.. but it won't be obvious whether there is or not until someone very strong puts the time in to finding out.. and if I were a 9b+ climber (with the sponsorship, opportunities, and pressure to produce good looking "content" that that entails) I doubt I'd be fucking around with those vs flying to Flatanger, Santa Linya, Jumbo Love etc! I suspect those project ideas will have to wait until someone with the required level (e.g. Bosi) gets old and still lives in the uk therefore has to create something new to keep themselves amused.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 13, 2020, 04:59:46 pm
On the Irish stuff - it looks cool, but I very much see where Gav is coming from on this:

Why head over there when Spain/France is easier.

If it's going to take travel/holiday then it's not like LPT, Kilnsey, Tor etc. where locals (or weekend regulars) are going to bolt it extensively.  I guess if it hits a certain level of development (e.g. a bunch of good 8s) then maybe it will start to become a "destination", and hard stuff will get done. But since it's out of the way for most of us, it's got to rival Spain/France/Flatanger to attract interest from most people, rather than to rival Malham/Tor. Pity it's not in the peak, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 06:02:56 pm
Travel wise and location it sounds very much like flatanger so if the climbing really is as good and futuristic as there I don’t see why it wouldn’t work.
Flatanger truly is a special crag and place and the isolation adds to it. If Inishmore is as good it will get developed as it sounds a similar place to stop.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: petejh on July 13, 2020, 06:19:11 pm
Yeah it will certainly become a destination that UK folk will travel to, I think it’s a certainty. As Barrows says it will take a critical mass of 8s to attract better climbers but that activity is progressing and the number is only going to go up. I have a world-class steep PE 8a proj to do there which just need to hit with some fitneess, and could bolt new 8s every time I go but I tend to concentrate on mid-high 7s to try to get stuff done on a visit. Other Pete keeps boshing out high 7s and low 8s each visit like a sausage machine, twat.

For travel - with the right logistics it’s cheaper and quicker than Flatanger, on a par with Spain I reckon. And probably quicker than either, certainly than flatanger.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 13, 2020, 07:16:06 pm
If you want more folks to come now is the time I guess with normal travel being disrupted for this year at least.

Always sounds like it’s being kept secret though. Other than Steve’s post I have not see any pics or heard much about it.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 13, 2020, 07:37:37 pm
Plus you can get some amazing County Clare surf in along the way.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wood FT on July 13, 2020, 07:53:27 pm
Yeah it will certainly become a destination that UK folk will travel to, I think it’s a certainty. As Barrows says it will take a critical mass of 8s to attract better climbers but that activity is progressing and the number is only going to go up. I have a world-class steep PE 8a proj to do there which just need to hit with some fitneess, and could bolt new 8s every time I go but I tend to concentrate on mid-high 7s to try to get stuff done on a visit. Other Pete keeps boshing out high 7s and low 8s each visit like a sausage machine, twat.

For travel - with the right logistics it’s cheaper and quicker than Flatanger, on a par with Spain I reckon. And probably quicker than either, certainly than flatanger.

Would love to hear those logistics, Pete.

I've been following the Instagram page and love the sound of the place. I should get off my arse and find out more about getting there but may as well ask you first.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on July 13, 2020, 08:17:46 pm
To save anyone else searching, there's a guide here with access details https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RhJ7f-AgRttXYDD-aDfK-Lx_gEnXBa91mRSO7olecF8/edit#
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 13, 2020, 08:30:00 pm
Maybe a venue could be built that could generate the same thing. I love the idea of having just one problem on a section of wall but can’t see how it’s commercially viable.

I think this does exist in a few places already, after a fashion. Personally I can think of a few problems on the Leeds Depot's 50 that will be lifetime achievements for me, as much as any outdoor boulders, when(!) I do them.

Likewise I went to Ravenswall in London earlier this year which had a permanent set. It's not much of a stretch from there.

On the topic of new venues for Brits, for the boulderers you still don't see many people heading over to Fairhead despite it being probably THE hard bouldering venue in the UK, that isn't just a load of link ups in a cave (sorry Parisella's fans). Lines like Spindle are surely up there with the very best in the world and yet people still flock to Magic Wood every summer instead.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wood FT on July 13, 2020, 08:44:32 pm
To save anyone else searching, there's a guide here with access details https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RhJ7f-AgRttXYDD-aDfK-Lx_gEnXBa91mRSO7olecF8/edit#

Let’s go!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 13, 2020, 08:48:57 pm
On the topic of new venues for Brits, for the boulderers you still don't see many people heading over to Fairhead despite it being probably THE hard bouldering venue in the UK,

Too scary for me and the cheese is better in Swizz.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: El Mocho on July 13, 2020, 08:58:12 pm
To save anyone else searching, there's a guide here with access details https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RhJ7f-AgRttXYDD-aDfK-Lx_gEnXBa91mRSO7olecF8/edit#

Having been for 1 week I can confirm that the rock is some of the best I've climbed on, immaculate limestone with good friction. From the 1 new route I did and the 7 or so Robbins managed in the same time period I don't think we had to remove a single loose hold or even really brush a single hold. It's a lovely spot. We were sticking to the more vert walls and these didn't really suffer from greasy rock that much. Prob less than Pemb and way less than lpt. The caves (where the 9b-c mega routes would be) do stay greasy/wet a bunch more. Camping is nice and guinness is nice. It was a slight ball ache cycling to the crag with bunch of sport gear + trad gear for anchors/prospecting + ab rope + drill + bolts (I think we stashed the stuff after the first time).

I repeated a bunch of the routes in the 7s and they were all really good. Had a bit of a traddy feel in the way they climbed (except you weren't having to place gear, not that there would have been any). You could probably do 1,000 new routes on the island.

sorry, slightly  :off:
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Duma on July 13, 2020, 08:59:42 pm
Was going to put this in the thread I started about comp wads crushing outdoors after lockdown, but it fits here too and this thread has got more traction.
Second female 8A+ flash
https://www.8a.nu/news/le-mur-du-son-assis-8a+-flash-by-charlotte-andre
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 13, 2020, 09:07:24 pm
Traddy feel? Meh, I'll stick to Ramirole or Santa Linya ;)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 13, 2020, 09:54:05 pm
There's stuff to be done, but there'll be a fine line between what is/isn't doable due to the fact that you can't get bottom-to-top difficulty out of many of these things so they'll be very bouldery.
There may be some very hard ways through the big Kilnsey roof, but I'm not sure if they'd go or not (obvious gaps, but maybe a couple of holds short of doable?)... Possible extension to Northern Lights, but would have a very good rest at the chains and no idea whether the top would be easy/hard/impossible. Magnetic North may or may not be doable since all the holds fell off.. Brandenburg gate.. Multiple cornice projects (e.g. direct finish to Malcolm X - there are holds but it looks like font 8hard, hard enough to put me off bolting it) so there may well be half a dozen bouldery 9b or 9b+s to be found, or there may be nothing.. but it won't be obvious whether there is or not until someone very strong puts the time in to finding out.. and if I were a 9b+ climber (with the sponsorship, opportunities, and pressure to produce good looking "content" that that entails) I doubt I'd be fucking around with those vs flying to Flatanger, Santa Linya, Jumbo Love etc! I suspect those project ideas will have to wait until someone with the required level (e.g. Bosi) gets old and still lives in the uk therefore has to create something new to keep themselves amused.
Good post. As a complete punt who occasionally spends time at these and other crags, I can see possibilities and blank bits and obvious gaps and obvious mega-links. Not king lines by any stretch but the rock is there for the investigating, unfortunately I think in the UK that investigating probably involves a lot of scrubbing, excavating, stabilising, dealing with seepage, etc etc to discover that yes you've just bolted a 9b but it's a 3 bolt V15 9b linking two 7cs and a bird's nest-filled break and condenses any time the wind changes direction etc etc. Still if you're chasing pure difficulty....and Hubble is a classic, right?

P.S. I'm pretty sure Ireland must have some fucking stonking cheese??
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 14, 2020, 12:00:11 am
Have places like Malham and Kilnsey given their hardest lines now? Not including ridiculous traverses or whatever.

There's stuff to be done, but there'll be a fine line between what is/isn't doable due to the fact that you can't get bottom-to-top difficulty out of many of these things so they'll be very bouldery.
There may be some very hard ways through the big Kilnsey roof, but I'm not sure if they'd go or not (obvious gaps, but maybe a couple of holds short of doable?)... Possible extension to Northern Lights, but would have a very good rest at the chains and no idea whether the top would be easy/hard/impossible. Magnetic North may or may not be doable since all the holds fell off.. Brandenburg gate.. Multiple cornice projects (e.g. direct finish to Malcolm X - there are holds but it looks like font 8hard, hard enough to put me off bolting it) so there may well be half a dozen bouldery 9b or 9b+s to be found, or there may be nothing.. but it won't be obvious whether there is or not until someone very strong puts the time in to finding out.. and if I were a 9b+ climber (with the sponsorship, opportunities, and pressure to produce good looking "content" that that entails) I doubt I'd be fucking around with those vs flying to Flatanger, Santa Linya, Jumbo Love etc! I suspect those project ideas will have to wait until someone with the required level (e.g. Bosi) gets old and still lives in the uk therefore has to create something new to keep themselves amused.
There's some potential mega lines in Dove Holes cave in Dovedale. All peppered with fairly new aid bolts. Only one line has been scoped out as a free line to my knowledge. I solo aided it a few years back and can confirm it will defo go. Someone had glued up a hold on it but have no idea who.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 14, 2020, 08:05:31 am
Is that The Bat or something else?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 14, 2020, 09:30:51 am
I don't think The Bat will go. The one I aided is The Wicked, you can see the line in the background in pic 7 at this link: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dovedale-962/the_bat_variation-444252#photos&gid=1&pid=7

The other most likely line is probably Middle Stump, a long line starting in the back right and working out to the apex via a hanging wall and other features.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 14, 2020, 09:33:40 am
The righthand groove in the background on pic 2 is the start of Middle Stump.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ru on July 14, 2020, 10:09:33 am
I don't think The Bat will go. The one I aided is The Wicked...

I think that's the one that Ben Moon tried/bolted/cleaned a long time ago.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: haydn jones on July 14, 2020, 12:25:12 pm
Have places like Malham and Kilnsey given their hardest lines now? Not including ridiculous traverses or whatever.

There's stuff to be done, but there'll be a fine line between what is/isn't doable due to the fact that you can't get bottom-to-top difficulty out of many of these things so they'll be very bouldery.
There may be some very hard ways through the big Kilnsey roof, but I'm not sure if they'd go or not (obvious gaps, but maybe a couple of holds short of doable?)... Possible extension to Northern Lights, but would have a very good rest at the chains and no idea whether the top would be easy/hard/impossible. Magnetic North may or may not be doable since all the holds fell off.. Brandenburg gate.. Multiple cornice projects (e.g. direct finish to Malcolm X - there are holds but it looks like font 8hard, hard enough to put me off bolting it) so there may well be half a dozen bouldery 9b or 9b+s to be found, or there may be nothing.. but it won't be obvious whether there is or not until someone very strong puts the time in to finding out.. and if I were a 9b+ climber (with the sponsorship, opportunities, and pressure to produce good looking "content" that that entails) I doubt I'd be fucking around with those vs flying to Flatanger, Santa Linya, Jumbo Love etc! I suspect those project ideas will have to wait until someone with the required level (e.g. Bosi) gets old and still lives in the uk therefore has to create something new to keep themselves amused.
There's some potential mega lines in Dove Holes cave in Dovedale. All peppered with fairly new aid bolts. Only one line has been scoped out as a free line to my knowledge. I solo aided it a few years back and can confirm it will defo go. Someone had glued up a hold on it but have no idea who.

I looked at this on the weekend as I'm keen to find a mega project but someone had removed the hangers from some of the bolts (maybe I wasn't looking hard enough and there's other bolts also it was pisswet. Definitely a 3star line if it's dry though
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 14, 2020, 04:35:17 pm
The lowest hanger or two was missing when I aided, this was 3 or 4 years back. I assumed it was something the aiders had done. I just stick clipped past. Given the line was aided prior to any free climber investigating it I would say the route is fair game as an open project, especially if no one comes forward to claim otherwise.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Duncan campbell on July 15, 2020, 08:44:51 am
Interesting that Steve McClure hasn’t given this some attention... what’s it like? Steep and bouldery?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: tomtom on July 15, 2020, 09:57:59 am
Somehow this article seemed fitting for this thread 😃

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/jul/15/competitive-hotdog-eaters-nearing-limit-of-human-performance?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: MischaHY on July 15, 2020, 10:39:30 am

There's some potential mega lines in Dove Holes cave in Dovedale. All peppered with fairly new aid bolts. Only one line has been scoped out as a free line to my knowledge. I solo aided it a few years back and can confirm it will defo go. Someone had glued up a hold on it but have no idea who.

I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing and thinking there must be some mega lines going through them. Are they super compact with few features? Or what's the reason for them not getting attention? That sort of terrain is comparatively so rare in the area, you'd think it'd see loads of interest.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ru on July 15, 2020, 10:45:16 am
I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing and thinking there must be some mega lines going through them. Are they super compact with few features?

Pretty much. Most of the obvious lines have fairly major blank looking sections on them through the steepest part of the roof. Its a while since I looked though and it might just need a fresh eye. Part of the problem might be that historically people tried to free aid routes, presumably as they are easier to have a go on/rebolt, but the aid routes there don't follow climbable lines in the most part. There's definitely some lines that will go as Bonjoy said. If anyone wants a hard project there it would be a good idea to try and find an easier thing or two there to bolt up to attract belayers.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: MischaHY on July 15, 2020, 11:00:37 am
I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing and thinking there must be some mega lines going through them. Are they super compact with few features?

Pretty much. Most of the obvious lines have fairly major blank looking sections on them through the steepest part of the roof. Its a while since I looked though and it might just need a fresh eye. Part of the problem might be that historically people tried to free aid routes, presumably as they are easier to have a go on/rebolt, but the aid routes there don't follow climbable lines in the most part. There's definitely some lines that will go as Bonjoy said. If anyone wants a hard project there it would be a good idea to try and find an easier thing or two there to bolt up to attract belayers.

Ahh makes sense. Thanks for the answer! It's a cracking formation so would be cool to see some routes go free.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 15, 2020, 12:22:16 pm


I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing

I remember a mate who I first went climbing with taking me for a walk up Dovedale on a rainy day on my first or second ever visit and showing me the aid routes. After struggling up Severes at Stanage the day before it boggled my mind.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 24, 2020, 08:51:44 am
Bradders posted this on another thread and i think its a perfect example of what was being discussed here. This girl is a comp climber through and through. Her parents even relocated to Boulder so she could be in the ABC team. In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

Her first stint climbing outside, forced by the closure of the climbing walls, she does 50 v10-V13 problems in two months. I would guess these things were not even that hard for her as they all got done quickly.

As Bradders said "not shit".


https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_cHRKDoRh/?igshid=1iz7oeh4pkmaw

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 24, 2020, 10:39:27 am
Sounds like she did at least one of those 8Bs in a session as well.

On a related note, I came across this video from Dave Macleod recently:

https://youtu.be/gCIyoS10s3g

It's interesting, albeit hardly surprising, to hear him continuing to advocate for the combination of time on rock AND consistent strength training as the way forward, whereas the evidence at least with Natalia Grossman seems to be that time on rock hasn't been necessary to reach a very high level.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 24, 2020, 10:53:57 am
In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUPqI4zXWM/

Just clicking through here IG posts, no interest? Lots of other pics of her climbing outside over the years.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: GazM on July 24, 2020, 10:57:12 am
I've not watched the vid yet but I'd assume Dave is talking about progressing across the disciplines on a variety of rock types.  Taking nothing away from what Natalia Grossman achieved (which is incredible), the crossover between indoor climbing and steep Colorado bouldering must be pretty big, compared with the huge variety of tricks and tactics you need to perform similarly well on a wide range of rock types and styles, which is more Dave's scene.  I'd guess that's the difference in approaches.

Edit: Just watched the video and think my point stands!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 24, 2020, 11:16:58 am
Not really surprising that the comp climbers tear it up outside when they do go out. They spend their whole lives training , they’re all fuckin monsters.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 24, 2020, 11:22:31 am
I've not watched the vid yet but I'd assume Dave is talking about progressing across the disciplines on a variety of rock types.  Taking nothing away from what Natalia Grossman achieved (which is incredible), the crossover between indoor climbing and steep Colorado bouldering must be pretty big, compared with the huge variety of tricks and tactics you need to perform similarly well on a wide range of rock types and styles, which is more Dave's scene.  I'd guess that's the difference in approaches.

Edit: Just watched the video and think my point stands!

Yeah agree, that had crossed my mind too. What has she done on grit?!

It really wouldn't surprise me if she was able to very quickly translate over to other styles though, particularly hard sport which seemed to be the main topic under discussion here.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 24, 2020, 12:22:47 pm
In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUPqI4zXWM/

Just clicking through here IG posts, no interest? Lots of other pics of her climbing outside over the years.

https://www.climbing.com/competition/interview-natalia-grossman-is-americas-new-comp-superstar/

Pretty much says shes not interested in this from last year. Finds it hard living in boulder where most want to go out rather than the wall. Sounds like she feels pressured to do so when she prefers just to climb indoors.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 24, 2020, 12:48:34 pm
Can you imagine living in Colorado and not being bothered about climbing outside?  :jaw:
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: JamieG on July 24, 2020, 05:01:36 pm
I'd be very surprised if we run out of rock for hard bouldering in Scotland anytime soon. There is shed loads of unclimbed stuff in the highlands and far north. The problems are more to do with the remoteness, weather and midges.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 25, 2020, 08:25:15 am
Remember that grades are subjective. As the the percentiles of climbers being able to climb different styles change, so too will the grading for those respective styles.

There are routes in the slate quarries where indoor training won't be a lot of help. Stuff considerably harder than what currently exists there. To climb these, you'll need hundreds of hours on rock. Maybe that will remain a fringe activity, but if it does, they may be some of the hardest routes when everyone can one-arm 6mm edges...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 25, 2020, 08:33:06 am


There are routes in the slate quarries where indoor training won't be a lot of help. Stuff considerably harder than what currently exists there. To climb these, you'll need hundreds of hours on rock.

Conversely, with the advent of dual texture holds and volumes, modern comp climbers are probably very good at using low friction climbing surfaces, and comps are full of the stemming undercutting weirdness that hard slate might entail.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: bendavison on July 25, 2020, 08:43:59 am
Remember that grades are subjective.

Well that explains a lot
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 25, 2020, 08:52:18 am
It explains that grades change as the body of climbers and their strengths change. If people climb outside less, then styles unique to outside will become relatively harder when compared with indoor styles. I think a lot of people like to see grades as something permanent, which of course they're not. If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change. It might take a while for the grades to be changed, but that's another discussion.

As for low friction indoor climbing helping on slate. I really doubt it. Indoor climbing follows fashions. Flexibility is kind of 'in' I suppose, but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ged on July 25, 2020, 10:54:34 am
but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..

I don't know if that's true. Some high profile rock climbers who also do comps (maybe magnus mitdbo?) publically complained about how comps were now way too much about parlour style problems, and didn't represent rock  climbing at all. He claimed there needed to be more basic pulling on crimps.

Surely if comps were set for the all rounder, the likes of Caldwell would do well. And I suspect he definitely wouldn't. Or do you mean an all rounder on indoor problems?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: turnipturned on July 25, 2020, 11:09:51 am
If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change

Couldn’t agree more.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 25, 2020, 11:41:50 am
but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..

I don't know if that's true. Some high profile rock climbers who also do comps (maybe magnus mitdbo?) publically complained about how comps were now way too much about parlour style problems, and didn't represent rock  climbing at all. He claimed there needed to be more basic pulling on crimps.

Surely if comps were set for the all rounder, the likes of Caldwell would do well. And I suspect he definitely wouldn't. Or do you mean an all rounder on indoor problems?

That should have read 'unapologetically' btw.

I half-mean both things. Indoor problems (generally) try not to exclude short people for example, which by definition excludes taller people. This doesn't mean it's impossible to do well on plastic if you're tall, but tall people would do relatively a lot better if problems were set to exclude short people (obviously). If everything was double dynos, or basic slopers, or crimps, or whatever, people would complain. I'm sure this happens on a small scale (like in your example), but as the routes are created by man, rather than god, they will of course be subject to political pressures, rather than just out-and-out nails climbing of as morpho-a-style as you like.

So bringing this back to the OP, of course people will be able to climb things that exceed today's standards, of whatever style is set indoors, but the moment people start to climb less outside, whatever style isn't set indoors will become proportionately more difficult.

The reasons people climb inside and out are different. Some of the most captivating lines outside would be seen as boring indoors (think soaring aretes with basic moves straddling the thing); and therefore those styles are unlikely to be replicated wholesale indoors. Slate is the most obvious example of this. I couldn't imagine a gym where all the problems were like Windows of Perception, Nick the Chisel etc. If you set one thing like this these days people complain! And the bottom line is that you excel at whatever you're most practised in. Yes there's some crossover between styles, but you're never going to climb slate 9c by training at Boulderwelt; and slate 9c becomes harder than Flatanger 9c if fewer people can climb it.   



Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: andy popp on July 25, 2020, 12:47:10 pm
If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change

Couldn’t agree more.

I could. If we were woodlice, wouldn't all routes be easy? Let's face it, woodlice never look like they're doing much in the way of route finding or beta refinement.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: cheque on July 25, 2020, 01:06:10 pm
Quick-drying, south facing arêtes would be a lot harder but damp shady corners would be downgraded to fuck.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Duma on July 25, 2020, 01:07:36 pm
Getting out of the bath would be 10a
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 25, 2020, 03:43:39 pm
Franco your comments sound along the lines of the Americans saying ondra would get his arse kicked on dawn wall or the old “what’s he done on grit” adage.
The hardest routes will be down to strength power and potentially dynamism technique.
And if the future of British climbing is down to weird stuff on slate we are more fucked than I thought.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Falling Down on July 25, 2020, 05:08:19 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 25, 2020, 07:17:45 pm
Franco your comments sound along the lines of the Americans saying ondra would get his arse kicked on dawn wall or the old “what’s he done on grit” adage.
The hardest routes will be down to strength power and potentially dynamism technique.
And if the future of British climbing is down to weird stuff on slate we are more fucked than I thought.

Apart from that's nothing like what I said... I'm on about routes that haven't been climbed yet.

I think there's a tendency to get wrapped up in the zeitgeist and think that difficulty is always going to come down to our 2D notion of it now. We're living through an exciting time of massive gains in training, where the lessons in how to train for climbing are still being worked out and if you apply them better than others, you can climb harder routes. Once this is universally adopted, people will have to look for other ways to climb routes other people can't climb. My point is that this may well be by climbing rock types that indoor training doesn't help as much with.

One thing's for certain, if your ideology leads you to a conclusion that "the UK's knackered, if you want to push the boundaries,  you need to get on a plane" then you probably need to get out and explore this amazing island more. There's mind-bending stuff all over the shop.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: tomtom on July 25, 2020, 08:27:29 pm
Getting out of the bath would be 10a

And there’d be no driving to the crag scenes in their vids...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 25, 2020, 09:23:20 pm
Care to name them. Where are the quality 9A boulder problems 9C sports routes and E13s.

Scotland may have some but if you factor in weather, midge, distance and walk ins who’s going to make the effort when it’s quicker, easier and more reliable to go to most places in Europe.

Re slate I would have thought the modern comp climber would be far better on it than someone with a more traditional back ground.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 25, 2020, 09:26:31 pm
The place Pete talks about in Ireland sounds like it has potential but I am et to be persuaded of others.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: JamieG on July 25, 2020, 09:34:47 pm
To be fair I wasn't disagreeing at all with the sentiment. I fully understand why some people enjoy indoors more and why you'd go to Europe with its enormous number of established areas for routes and bouldering, rather than questing around the UK looking for anything that fits the bill. I personally prefer outdoors and enjoy esoteric venues. I was really just questioning the idea that we're running out of rock. In the peak maybe not most areas and definitely not in the north of Scotland. As to whether there are any super hardcore venues I'm not so sure. But plenty of quality stuff at most grades.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 25, 2020, 09:46:33 pm
I agree. Loads of rock and loads to do.  Look at the new stuff getting done in NW, lakes, northumberland and Francos stuff in the moors. Even peak and yorks lime gets new stuff.
I am questioning the ground breaking stuff.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 25, 2020, 09:49:25 pm
My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route. Started in another thread off the back of the ascent of LA.
As usual on here it’s drifter off course but not in a bad way.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 26, 2020, 09:07:15 am
 I think you're correct that we'll continue to see strong climbers from indoors push a lot of limits across all disciplines (possibly least in Trad, where there are more factors in play than just physicality, although I'm sure we'll see impressive repeats/ new lines of moderately hard stuff in places like Pembroke).

The few Grit LGPs would certainly have a lot of crossover with indoors - eg the hardest moves on a decent one I know of is the wall right of Ulysses- 3 lines,  the easiest of which is just a series of ~font 8b boulder problems on micro crimps. So I'm sure someone like Bosi would do well on that. Numbers-wise though, these wouldn't be massive, as it's just highball. So obviously no big sport/ trad grade.

I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

No idea about bouldering. But there is a tonne of rock about and people are only just starting to explore..

You ask about E13 projects..Trad-wise, there's tonnes. It's pretty much only the Peak and Northumberland that doesn't have stuff left above E10/11. There are E13 projects in the Moors and E14 projects on slate ( you may call these E12/13, but I'd suggest abandoning E12 after the way it's been bastardised) . This isn't idle speculation,
but like actual doable routes that have been linked- once someone is good enough to take the edge off the boldness. Mountain rock is often a bit more difficult to find compact enough rock (ie no gear), but even then, there's definitely stuff I've shunted in Scotland a step above what's currently been done in England.

So there's rock in the UK for the next few levels at least in most disciplines. Most of it will benefit from indoor strength. Some of it will need you not to have indoor strength. If everyone is indoor-based, unpopular styles will become relatively harder.

I think what we'll see in reality is specilisation,  with people unlikely to be able to perform at the limits of each style.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 26, 2020, 09:42:37 am
My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route.
Woah, wait a minute. I'd only skimmed over this, but were you actually implying that future progress with physically hard,  stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbs would likely come from people with a background, prowess, and focused training and support in, errr, physically hard, stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbing??

P.S. In terms for future hard new routes, the rock is out there, but the aesthetic gaps, king lines, accessibility and reliable conditions much less so. Apart from the headwalls at Dumby maybe ;)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 26, 2020, 03:36:02 pm
My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route.
Woah, wait a minute. I'd only skimmed over this, but were you actually implying that future progress with physically hard,  stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbs would likely come from people with a background, prowess, and focused training and support in, errr, physically hard, stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbing??

Yes but crucially to the tread they won’t have started outside and will probably be focused on comps with little if any interest in “real” climbing until there comp career is over.
The point being that the kids who don’t do “real” climbing will end up being better at “real” climbing than the “real” climbers.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 27, 2020, 09:22:54 am
There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

I think in Europe the hard stuff is still out there. Tons of "blank" walls at the major crags, caves etc. What's needed is the vision, effort to bolt them and the dedication to putting in the time to climb them.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 27, 2020, 09:44:00 am

There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

What’s your basis for this statement Franco? Pretty much all of the major crags have very hard bolted projects on them and like Chris says tonnes more space for super hard stuff. And that’s just the crags the have been climbed on, there’s so many more crags in France and Spain that haven’t been developed because they’re slightly less accessible.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 27, 2020, 10:19:42 am
I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe.

I would suggest that the first 8 words of that means that the final 9 words are a bit defunct. I would guess that the major crags probably have >=9b+/cs bolted already (Bouin's Ramirole proj, Stoking the Fire Direct, Bibliographie proj etc.). I'm guessing here based on comments online though.

Having spent some more time in Kilnsey roof porjecting/prospecting recently, there are definitely 9s to be done but I don't know whether they'll all end up being 9a or whether there could be some 9b up there. I was looking for the former, so there could also be 9c but I would have dismissed it as not worth another look. Will be the comp beasts who do them though, not me!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 27, 2020, 10:57:30 am
I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe.

I would suggest that the first 8 words of that means that the final 9 words are a bit defunct.


Yeh, fair enough. I'm talking out of my arse really. Haven't even climbed 8a. It's possibly a flawed assumption based on stuff that Sharma and Ondra have said. I do recall that Ondra said something to this effect when he was at Kendal - hence developing non-limestone places like Flatanger.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 27, 2020, 11:26:03 am
Also are designer danger routes on the slate still a thing? I would have thought anything of the difficulty you’re talking about of any quality would have a few bolts stuck in it these days?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: jwi on July 27, 2020, 11:37:01 am
There are tons of known hard projects everywhere. Just in Céüse: the aforementioned Bibliographie (9c? it could fall any year soon) and Ratstaman Vibration (Seb Bouin and Charles Albert worked together on this briefly). On Face de Rat the majority of the most obvious lines are surely 10a or harder...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 27, 2020, 12:06:30 pm
On Face de Rat the majority of the most obvious lines are surely 10a or harder...

Something up the middle and through the big roof at the top would also be the king line of the crag surely?

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBM5bu_hxM8
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 27, 2020, 12:41:43 pm
Also are designer danger routes on the slate still a thing? I would have thought anything of the difficulty you’re talking about of any quality would have a few bolts stuck in it these days?

Not quite sure what you're asking... There aren't a lot of projects bolted that haven't been climbed - mostly just the daft/impossible bouldery stuff around Rainbow walls.  The harder would-be sport lines haven't been bolted. I don't think anyone is interested in it really.

The futuristic Trad routes could be on virgin rock, or could be retro-Trad on existing sport routes. Designer danger wouldn't really work if you're trying to push Trad limits, as you'd presumably bolt it so you'd be taking massive, but probably safe, falls. Even a lot of the established sport/ designer danger routes would be really hard without the bolts - even stuff on the seamstress slab. Not that I'm advocating removing the bolts from there like.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 27, 2020, 01:10:57 pm
Sorry, my question was around the prevailing ethics in the slate quarries currently. If these projects you’ve identified are hard and bold, if a local activist tries them are they likely to place some bolts to create a 9a+ (or whatever), rather than leaving them as a trad route with dangerous fall potential?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 27, 2020, 02:19:10 pm
Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

It was interesting to see people with the Carn Vellan debate suggesting that bolts could be taken out of routes in the future if people chose to climb them on Trad. I wonder how people would react if someone did this on a line like The Very Big And The Very Small, or highballed Windows or something. I'd imagine there'd be a significant group of people who weren't very happy about it - so that should probably also influence our decisions on what and how we bolt the lines in the first place.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 27, 2020, 02:39:40 pm

It was interesting to see people with the Carn Vellan debate suggesting that bolts could be taken out of routes in the future if people chose to climb them on Trad. I wonder how people would react if someone did this on a line like The Very Big And The Very Small, or highballed Windows or something.

Do you agree with them and think this would be a good direction for Trad climbing in the UK??

i.e there are no good hard trad lines left so we can strip bolts from sports routes to artificially make some.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on July 27, 2020, 02:44:08 pm
Stripping bolts is surely reducing the level of artificial-ness.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 27, 2020, 02:56:51 pm
No it isnt if your taking them out of a sports route.

I am sure steve Mc could walk up a lot of the countries existing 8as on natural gear and make a whole crop of hard trad routes artificially.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: jwi on July 27, 2020, 03:49:06 pm

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBM5bu_hxM8

That is the Ratstaman Vibration project.

Incidentally, RV, just released a clip of Albert and Bouin on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IefAza76V70

From the film it sounds like Albert had already invested some time
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 27, 2020, 04:19:48 pm
Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can. Arguably, if rock is in short supply (debatable), that would be a good way of getting more out of a venue if you could go and do things on bolts and then go back and do them again on natural protection.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Stabbsy on July 27, 2020, 04:52:14 pm
Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can. Arguably, if rock is in short supply (debatable), that would be a good way of getting more out of a venue if you could go and do things on bolts and then go back and do them again on natural protection.

The existence of the bolts totally changes the challenge even if you're ignoring them. If there's any element of risk as a trad route, the fact that the bolts are an option if things start to go a bit wrong means that the trad route becomes a bit pointless. If you do the bolt route first, you know what to expect of the trad route and would already know the climbing and/or potential for gear placements. If you do as a trad route first, I'd challenge anyone to ignore the bolts when facing a potentially bad fall.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: ali k on July 27, 2020, 05:11:40 pm
I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.
Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can.

I thought this was UKB. With a B. What grade do people think Three Pebble Slab is?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 27, 2020, 05:18:21 pm

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBM5bu_hxM8

That is the Ratstaman Vibration project.

Incidentally, RV, just released a clip of Albert and Bouin on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IefAza76V70

From the film it sounds like Albert had already invested some time

That wall is incredible i cant believe there are still only a few routes on the right hand side.

Ceuse, Flatanger, Ramirole, Margalef and Oliana look like they have Europe covered for the next 30 years so i dont think there is an issue with the top boys running out of stuff.

Germany's thin on the ground for new stuff as well i think so not just UK.

I thought people on here would point out loads of stuff i didn't know about in the UK but it appears not, so who wants to chip in for a huge outdoor lead wall in the middle of the country.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 27, 2020, 07:00:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IefAza76V70 timely and topical - haven't watched it yet tho.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: carlisle slapper on July 27, 2020, 09:40:53 pm
With a coverall title like that its bound to open up the bait :worms:

Indoors: outdoor bouldering essentially created the movement centric model of play/ multi angle exploration that the indoor market has built on and run with. Whilst you can build macro structures easily indoors the minutae and subtleties fall by the wayside pretty bloody fast. Hence the push for triple slaps and huge holds over multiple foot swaps and flicking from a thumb sprag to a gaston as the crux for the crowd to see. I'd say this is definitely the forcing ground for the sport in recent years and rightly so, its been amazing to see and is where much of the real excitement is. Maybe its in its end phase as it settles into the olympics and its "format" can become more set for the athletes to work towards. Is it where the zeitgeist is? for sure is it where those athletes might try their hardest? who knows, that all depends on motivation and whether you can do in 4 minutes what you could ever achieve outdoors in an unlimited timescale. I can see an indoor climber being fitter than someone more focussed on the outdoors and repeating things quicker but its incredibly unlikely that they'd ever develop anything worthwhile (other than the odd spoon fed flash in the pan) without focussing on the outdoors and its own development criteria. I'd say Ondra is more an outdoor climber who does incredibly in comps than the other way round, olympic blip noted. As the current worlds best he's certainly proof for me that the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.

Sport: It's always been the poorest of the uk's disciplines thanks to the beardy tradders marginalising the fuck out of it and condemning it to our mostly runty/seepy limestone. There is so much potential left away from the obvious honeypots for trad and sport that it'd be stupid to discuss it, much like every guide preface has declared their area tapped out. It just comes down to how arsed the next generation can be to put in the effort for boring hikes (drew ruana hiked 13miles a day last month to repeat the box, so it looks to me like it might not be an issue for some) Looking at OS maps and ramblers youtubes from the arse end of nowhere hoping to catch a glimpse of the boulder you've seen on the satellite (and thats if youre canny) That and all that other crap that your coach doesnt plan into the training plan thats the stuff that'll help them find and create the next unknown testpieces, probs why Stubbs's point will be true for a good while. That said there are still lots of projects at all the roadside venues too for bouldering and trad so... moot point right now.

Sport: this was obvious in the 80s surely? our sport crags were always shitter than france and spain its not like things have changed in 2020, Mcclures just done bloody well for operating within 2 hours of his house (and nowt outside that area in the uk). I'd say whats changed is that you could likely get away with bolting more of the schist in arrochar now (of which theres loads and some precedence upto 9a already, arguably the most inspiring "lines" on uk sport) There are things like 3 miles of upto 80m high sandstone cliffs on Raasay which are just getting bolted now, albeit by weekend warriors but i'd wager that the best rock on there is the under featured stuff. Projects are still left on the welsh lime, carn vellan has been mentioned, Ireland has a shit tonne. There also seems to be a general pissboots vibe of, oh well it doesnt count if its not on y/our doorstep/ roll out the car/tor/malham in the UK, but its ok to fly to flatanger etc IE places which have an almost non existant local population miles from a "scene". But it'd take a hell of a visionary to book a two week holiday to some overhanging cliff on Mull and bolt it full of projects because that'd require time and effort risk rather than a plane ticket and known goals/routes. So i guess the point i take is definitely the future is indoors if people want convenience and rolling out the car to limit extraneous factors to performance. Again this is where sport climbing has an advantage in that its history is much more intertwined with chisels, sika and drills to get rid of those stopper moves or preserve difficulty than the other mediums, so in many ways i can see it being the first to convert in that it has mostly been more about performance than being on the best rock in the nicest places. To me this seems the real forcing ground of sport in the last decade is the quality side, Flatanger being the stand out example, but other routes/ crags like groovetrain on taipan, the RRG have helped turn the tide from the 90's/naughties spanish sika front to the genre and the more widespread rejection of chipping/ gluing is certainly a breath of fresh air.

Climbing could do with a bit more of a surfing attitude of appreciating that we are lucky to have whatever "breaks" we have and just getting out and pushing ourselves on the days with great connies and enjoying ourselves on other days etc but all in all focussing on the rock/ new moves rather than ratings first approach of bashing the gavel demanding number progress. The talent will always find the Niche and mine it, i'm happy just to sit back and watch for now without judging too much or loading the next generations with nostalgic expectations from days of low hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Coops_13 on July 27, 2020, 09:50:25 pm
Another topical video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdn4qy2vW7s
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Muenchener on July 27, 2020, 09:53:27 pm
Germany's thin on the ground for new stuff as well i think so not just UK.

Yeah, istr Megos saying there isn't really much potential for 9b upwards in the Frankenjura and he would know.

Toni Lamprecht continues to dig out stuff in the 8c/9a range on new & obscure crags in the Bavarian Alps, but one doesn't hear about anybody going after anything harder. But is that because there's no potential, or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 27, 2020, 09:54:15 pm
The title wasn’t mine. I guess it came from whoever split the tread from the one about LA being repeated by someone who is more interested in comps.
As usual these things tend to drift off subject but in a good way (sometimes).
Never even vaguely meant as a nostalgic look at UK climbing.
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 27, 2020, 09:55:50 pm
or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?

Guess this, especially if finding the line, cleaning, bolting and working multiple pitches is required.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: jwi on July 27, 2020, 10:19:49 pm
...fly to flatanger etc...

Just as a side note. The original developers of Flatanger (Thomas Vekve, Pål Reiten) put up a few routes in the mid-late 90s and spent a lot of time end effort trying to convince people to go there to no avail. By the mid 00s it had probably less than a handful of visits per year. When I was there in 2008, Bernt said that he hadn't seen climbers in a few years.

There is at least one more similarly formed cave as Hanshelleren near Flatanger. Will it be developed? Not likely in the coming 20 years....
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 27, 2020, 10:26:00 pm
the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.
:lol: :lol: worth it for that alone!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Muenchener on July 27, 2020, 10:33:11 pm
or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?

Guess this, especially if finding the line, cleaning, bolting and working multiple pitches is required.

There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.

And repeating boulders is less work than bolting sport routes.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ru on July 28, 2020, 10:15:03 am
There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.


There was a film, probably lost in the mists of the early 2000s internet, of Klem and co developing the Blaueis boulders. Looked really nice.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Stabbsy on July 28, 2020, 10:21:00 am
Wasn’t it a segment from the first Dosage?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 28, 2020, 10:27:33 am
the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.
:lol: :lol: worth it for that alone!
I thought the same.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: carlisle slapper on July 28, 2020, 10:48:30 am
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

I think its hard to look at is as a binary issue as outdoor climbers who train hard indoors and comp climbers have alot of crossover nowadays. As soon as indoor walls got accessible enough (bouldering format) from a young age i think that killed off the pure traditional outdoor apprenticeship model. My generation is probably a blend and younger generations seem to all come from the indoors. That point is becoming more and more valid.

Will the outdoors lose its point or cachet altogether? and indoors become the main focus. That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene. It would likely have a huge bearing on the sport in the same way that its shaped how uk sport has evolved to the present. Cool anecdote about flatanger, must've been ace in the 90s being up there. I thought Eggum on lofoten was an incredible crag too. Its all so often the case of not what is actually good or where there is potential but what is cool. If comps can out cool the outdoors then they should rightly pull the talent in. If the next olympics is already planning on splitting the format again that looks likely to me to really help the sport as athletes can specialise and focus on their talents more which will likely produce some amazing displays. Watching ondra speed climb feels a bit like watching bolt do deadlift or something, interesting but clearly not world class. Maybe another example of how quick ethical decisions and bureaucracy can have large effects on the game/direction of talent, its becoming more professional and thats where the money is beginning to point.

There's still a crap load to do out there. Its just in general whether its "cool" outdoor sport has really come back round in recent years (sharma/dosage maybe the biggest "influencer" to that shift?). To me outdoor climbing and coronavirus have made a strange mix on the rocks lately and i'll be interested to see what happens in the next few years. Proper mixing pot at the mo. But my main point is that its fine to be strong and repeat stuff, but being comp strong and develop stuff is a rare fish at the moment especially coming from the comp scene and its becoming way harder to do both. I cant imagine any of the young japanese wads just nipping out and surpassing Dai Koyamadas resume outside even if they put in years of effort as even if you are 10-15% stronger the gap in experience and knowledge would massively outweigh doing it 2nd go instead of 5th. I'd wager he's still putting up more hard FAs than the youth right now in his 40s thanks to that knowledge.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Muenchener on July 28, 2020, 11:10:27 am
There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.


There was a film, probably lost in the mists of the early 2000s internet, of Klem and co developing the Blaueis boulders. Looked really nice.

It's certainly a spectacular location. Similar to your typical alpine granite giant talus field, only made of limestone. And did I mention the cakes at the hut?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 28, 2020, 11:51:49 am
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.


 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.

Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Liamhutch89 on July 28, 2020, 12:11:51 pm
Assuming the same eagerness for promoting oneself and sponsors on social media, I would have thought a climber who goes documenting hard outdoor climbing (preferably with some stoner-esque Sharma vibes (I enjoy this and his videos to be fair)) would have greater career outcomes than a climber of equal ability who wins a plastic trophy every now and then but does nothing particularly memorable?

Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?

I assume the youtubers do well, who are generally indoor focused (Magnus Midtbo), but that's more about being a personality with the climbing being secondary.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Muenchener on July 28, 2020, 12:19:14 pm
Who actually earns any money from climbing?

Alex Honnold, because the general public outside of climbing can comprehend why what he does is impressive.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 28, 2020, 12:38:29 pm
Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?

I assume the youtubers do well, who are generally indoor focused (Magnus Midtbo), but that's more about being a personality with the climbing being secondary.

I think there will be a pretty long list of people who make money and earn their living just from climbing (I.e. without also offering coaching, route-setting, etc.). Most of the world class kind of level people I can think of do so, and plenty who definitely aren't world class too. 
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: 36chambers on July 28, 2020, 12:41:03 pm
Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but it could also be due to logistics, in that many of the young guns might not live that close to outdoor climbing, or at least have means to consistently get out on the rock (like having their own car for example).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 28, 2020, 01:16:38 pm

Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?


By that do you mean earns the most money? Or who actually earns a living? Many people earn money right from instructors at the local wall upwards. If you have low expenses i expect many can earn a living, foreign travel being the biggest expense.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: turnipturned on July 28, 2020, 01:39:41 pm
Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but it could also be due to logistics, in that many of the young guns might not live that close to outdoor climbing, or at least have means to consistently get out on the rock (like having their own car for example).

What’s a car? All you need is an Ebike
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Duma on July 28, 2020, 08:31:01 pm
Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens.
IIRC James Squire was never really into comps and certainly stopped competing early on.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Orrincoley on July 29, 2020, 07:33:59 pm
To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 29, 2020, 08:14:30 pm
To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym
Close on Big Bang too....
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 29, 2020, 08:16:41 pm
To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym


How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: abarro81 on July 29, 2020, 08:37:21 pm
Given that weak fuckers like me from a trad punteering background have done that one using "outdoor" techniques, it definitely doesn't seem the best demonstration of the point. Not that I really disagree with Gav's main original point.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: User deactivated on July 29, 2020, 09:00:02 pm
Amazing effort from Kieran, smoothest ascent i've seen. Beating Mike in that category takes some doing.

I'd have to second what Alex said though, a bad problem to use to try and make a point, Barrows having done this when his main M-O is going to the crag to gossip, and myself having done it when i didn't even know climbing existed until my mid twenties doesn't really make it a great example of the youngsters from the comp scene taking over (although I'm sure they are).

Just the start for Kieran imo who will undoubtedly go on to doing harder routes/problems if he sticks with having some time outside every year between comps.

Let's have a Rail repeat, a Rainman repeat and the thread can be closed.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 29, 2020, 09:01:40 pm
To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym


How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.

Isn't it the point that he hasn't had to do the outdoor apprenticeship first to reach a high level?

I'd be interested to see his pyramid. Imagine it's more a pillar...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 29, 2020, 09:05:26 pm
To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym


How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.

Isn't it the point that he hasn't had to do the outdoor apprenticeship first to reach a high level?

I'd be interested to see his pyramid. Imagine it's more a pillar...

And Malcolm Smith I seem to recall spent a fair bit of time in his bedroom. Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 29, 2020, 09:14:48 pm
I wouldn't argue that if you spend lots of time training indoors, you will get strong and then if...you go outside you will climb some hard problems. What I would argue is that without a development of new and hard problems, the culture of bouldering as we know it now, albeit a culture that is diverging, diluting, fracturing etc will disappear rapidly. The question is can the talent and strength of the indoor culture translate to quality of new lines outside, given that as others have suggested, outside development involves a multi faceted approach, I suspect generally it won't.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 29, 2020, 09:45:28 pm

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.   
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 29, 2020, 10:17:22 pm
The framing and arguments in favour of the original premise in this discussion seem to prove one thing to me. The future of climbing or at least its present is still outdoors. In the sense that lasting legacies and measurements of achievement are still firmly in the outdoor domain. Success in a competition, even the olympics is a transitory success and not objectively measurable in the future. The climbs are temporary and the win is entirely relative to other people's performance on the day.
Under the current paradigm climbing indoors will produce the strongest climbers - it's hardly arguable that purpose built training facilities are more efficient than randomly generated lumps of mineral after all. But like amphibians going back to the pond to breed, climbers' abilities are still largely measured and validated by outdoor climbing achievements. Which brings me back to my previous point  - indoor/artificial climbing/climbers will only reach escape velocity and evolve into superior beings when they start to create worthwhile high value permanent climbs which have the aesthetic appeal and cache currently the sole preserve of natural rock climbs. I love outdoor climbing, but I would  love to see this transition happen in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Stu Littlefair on July 29, 2020, 10:31:02 pm
From an aesthetic point of view I think something would be lost if climbers started creating their own projects on artificial structures.

I’m not sure how best to explain my feelings, but it’s something to do with having to fit your movements to the demands of the rock, as opposed to creating the movement that fits you...

Watching the video of Kieran on Pilgrimage, it’s striking how beautifully he climbs it. What happens when you couple an excess of power with the fluidity modern indoor bouldering teaches. A striking contrast to the snooze fest that is Barrows cheating his way across it.

It’s hard to argue that the best climbers won’t train that way in future. Perhaps for the rich development of the outdoor sport they’ll need an outdoor scout. Someone who plays the same role that Bonjoy does for Ned...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 30, 2020, 12:03:51 am
Finder's and equipper's fees. Another niche in the market. Auction off projects to the highest paid bidder / richest sponsor.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 30, 2020, 07:23:35 am
Liquid and Pilgrimage may be old climbs but the speed he’s done them definitely points to future potential. Or it may be business as normal once comps resume....
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 30, 2020, 07:36:23 am

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me  ;)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 30, 2020, 08:25:46 am
From an aesthetic point of view I think something would be lost if climbers started creating their own projects on artificial structures.

I’m not sure how best to explain my feelings, but it’s something to do with having to fit your movements to the demands of the rock, as opposed to creating the movement that fits you...

Watching the video of Kieran on Pilgrimage, it’s striking how beautifully he climbs it. What happens when you couple an excess of power with the fluidity modern indoor bouldering teaches. A striking contrast to the snooze fest that is Barrows cheating his way across it.

It’s hard to argue that the best climbers won’t train that way in future. Perhaps for the rich development of the outdoor sport they’ll need an outdoor scout. Someone who plays the same role that Bonjoy does for Ned...

Isn't Pilgrimage just a crude example of a designed line on an artificial structure though? A mixture of chipped, glued, and quarries holds in a quarries cave.
I'd expect in many cases creating aesthetic artificial lines would involve some random generation, then a bunch of tweaking.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 30, 2020, 08:44:01 am
I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me  ;)

And me, mine has lasted 30 years. If you look in the back of Revelations at the dates list, he we doing pretty much all outside stuff for most of his career, a lot of it hard trad before going down the sport, then bouldering route.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: andy popp on July 30, 2020, 09:19:49 am
Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I know others have said this, but from someone who was around at the time, this is just completely wrong. There was no other way of becoming a climber.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: carlisle slapper on July 30, 2020, 10:25:21 am
I'm with Stu on the ethics in that its much more fun adapting to Natures crap/random setting than doing our own. However i totally see how developing world class versions of shoreditch park/ mabley green boulders would allow for open ended difficulty in a permanent form. Interestingly with the electrification of transport and energy density of batteries advancing as it is then it's likely that there'll be low loaders in 30years time that could easily transport far more tonnage than is possible today. I think Levitated Mass is the current largest moved boulder, cool film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitated_Mass. Stonehenge is essentially a 3000year old proof of bonjoys concept if it wasnt banned  :shrug:.

Not sure how that'd work for routes without just going back to the chipping of crags argument. Whilst its nice to imagine its becoming far more clear about the limits to humanity in the present world and things like climate change and pandemics seem to be exerting much more of a forcing factor on the likely future of the sport. Condensed grit has been much worse in the past 10years IMO due to warmer daytime air temps and humidity in winter. Another reason to head indoors for most of the winter and sack off the outside climbing world.

I'd love to see more comp climbers using their skills outside. There are double taps and run along slabs to do out there too. Glenn Ross and rocking spectre are some cool double taps in the UK. Doppler effect would be primo indoors on the 4 minute rule. Lupino Lane, Larn streng, the wall right of mysticeti are all decent run and jumps. Plenty of that style is out there it just needs capable climbers with the vision to reimagine what is truly blank. I established a sit to learning to fly last weekend which is a cool comp style thumb press surf move into the dyno that would fit right in on resin. Still just me rattling round the county on new 8's though inspite of no indoor option. Currently those examples are all getting developed by dusty outdoor climbers putting in the initial vision and prep etc. repeating 10-20year old problems fast is great homework and proof of strength but it isnt solving things that past generations weren't capable of, infact its using their beta and knowledge to improve the speed of ascent aswell as a strength gain, looking forward to seeing cool new stuff that no one has imagined yet though as it'll be very exciting.

Font is a great example for this discussion. French team is all based around there, yet the most inspiring hard lines of recent years have been put up by the old fart outdoor dads like lebreton and Collignon still. Along with Some outdoor focussed youths coming through like Gulliam Joubert and Barefoot Charles and Nico Gensollen. The indoor team wads tend to nip out and tick some classics fast but i've seen little in the way of awesome new lines put up by them. Gavs point holds true for the likes of Gui Gui and other team leavers but he's just done two really hard new lines after getting sidled off the team and seems to be in fun/cruise mode nowadays. Infact the french team seems to have lost a lot of its mega strong athletes in favour of the better movers like Cornu and Mawems. Food for thought anyhow from the worlds most accessible area of talent+projects

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: tomtom on July 30, 2020, 10:49:58 am
I think it’s worth not conflating doing hard problems with finding new hard problems.

Searching out and finding new problems seems to be the preserve of the few (whether hard or easy problems) requiring a certain tenacity and way of looking at things.

Going and doing other people’s problems doesn’t mean you’re a stronger or weaker climber - it can mean you are just not interested in developing stuff.

Which is fine imho. Sure someone needs to have to find the lines and the crags - but that person needn’t be the one actually pushing the climbing.

I’ll base this on personal experience (as in I find it quite interesting developing problems - but it’s not why I go out. Alternatively I know folk who thrive off it - and it’s often their reason for climbing) - and looking at people climbing and people putting up regular new problems - and id say the latter are <5%
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on July 30, 2020, 11:21:26 am

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me  ;)

Oh come on, I'm not so sure about Moon but Moffat spent years dossing in shacks, sheds and other people's houses so he could climb outside all the time. Only got into comps later. And it took him a lot longer than 6 sessions to do LA!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 30, 2020, 12:26:07 pm

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me  ;)

Oh come on, I'm not so sure about Moon but Moffat spent years dossing in shacks, sheds and other people's houses so he could climb outside all the time. Only got into comps later. And it took him a lot longer than 6 sessions to do LA!

I think you’re missing the subtlety within interpretations of ‘outdoor apprenticeship’, for me it means years with wool socks, oversized rock shoes and lowly grades  ;)
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Andy W on July 30, 2020, 12:31:07 pm
Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I know others have said this, but from someone who was around at the time, this is just completely wrong. There was no other way of becoming a climber.

Edited. I realise I thought I’d said something,but checked and realised I hadn’t. So yes they did climb outdoors a lot. But they had what I would call a short ‘outdoors apprenticeship’.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Johnny Brown on July 30, 2020, 12:52:27 pm
It's still bollocks though. Jerry was world-class before climbing walls existed. The fact that they built some of the first serious training venues doesn't detract from that.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 30, 2020, 12:59:59 pm
I'm with Stu on the ethics in that its much more fun adapting to Natures crap/random setting than doing our own.

Created doesn't necessarily mean designed. The level of randomness can be anything from 0 to 100%. After all, what are quarried climbs other than random artificially created climbs.
I am just thinking bouldering here BTW.
I personally will always probably be more fascinated by the random things nature and the quarrymen produce, but my enjoyment wouldn't be diminished by a parallel branch of new climbing developing. I'm sure I'd be mad keen to try the new creations, especially if they are convenient and weatherproof on a wet winters day.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Doylo on July 30, 2020, 01:03:30 pm
Jerry nearly did it in 88(!!) then fell off his motorbike. That would have been the biggest leap in difficulty ever.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: sdm on July 30, 2020, 01:19:16 pm
Interestingly with the electrification of transport and energy density of batteries advancing as it is then it's likely that there'll be low loaders in 30years time that could easily transport far more tonnage than is possible today.
The only limit on what can be transported currently is the strength of our roads. The pressure below the tires/tracks is the limiting factor and this cannot be reduced because it can already be spread over the maximum footprint of our road lanes.

Unless there is a fundamental shift in road construction or we use temporary load spreading (which gets very expensive), the maximum loads we can transport cannot change.

It may become a lot more cost effective to move heavy things but we are already at the limit of what is possible.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: duncan on July 30, 2020, 02:05:34 pm
Interesting discussion.  Pembroke, Dorset and Devon all have big caves or other areas of very steep rock which are untouched or barely developed and could have the potential for super-routes. They will need a really driven developer and first ascentionist, probably a local, in the mold of a Pete Oxley or Neil Carson: they will have very fickle conditions and are frequently a pain to access.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on July 30, 2020, 02:16:33 pm
Agreed, good chat. Similar to Duncans point. For the primed Hercules of the indoor arena days spent stripping ivy and trundling flakes cant seem that appealing either. Any time spent hunting new routes and boulders or cleaning and bolting is time away from training. Unless you have truly unlimited time to climb and you can make that your free/recovery days. But the days spent cleaning often leave you more wiped than climbing.. And you’de have to explain to coach why you’ve got a scrittly eye infection, rashes up to your elbows and possibly lymes disease. Similarly, any and all of the major training centres are often near the main cities/hubs and a long way from the wild hoary frontiers where the biggest cliffs and monsters still wait. Until Broadford opens its gaelic climbing academy most of these places are still a fair way to travel and a big commitment away from the training halls for the young olympians.

Artificial boulders will be well cool. But the limits of climbing are always going to be on real rock. No matter how good artificial walls and boulders get there will always be something harder on rock, its just harder to find. The thing about indoor setting and 3d printed designer boulders is that they’ll always be designed within or just beyond the limits of climbers at that point in time. Once the design process is deliberate and human there’ll always be a subconscious element of making it just possible or in the fashion of the times.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 30, 2020, 02:18:17 pm

The only limit on what can be transported currently is the strength of our roads. The pressure below the tires/tracks is the limiting factor and this cannot be reduced because it can already be spread over the maximum footprint of our road lanes.

If the load is spread you can go a lot heavier, but why would you bother?

https://osagespecial.com/2018/08/five-of-the-biggest-things-ever-moved-on-the-road/

Wouldn't want to take it over Snake Pass though!

I'm sure there are many caves like Dave Mac's Arisaig one littering the remote parts of the coastline.

The Cannibal Cave has curiously seen little development! :) https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/Sawney-Bean-Scotlands-most-famous-cannibal/
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: sdm on July 30, 2020, 02:44:27 pm
If the load is spread you can go a lot heavier, but why would you bother?
Exactly. We are already at the hard limit of what can be transported over our roads unless you start going for very disruptive practices.

Quote
https://osagespecial.com/2018/08/five-of-the-biggest-things-ever-moved-on-the-road/

Wouldn't want to take it over Snake Pass though!
Other than the Saudi evaporator, I'm not sure what the rest of them are doing in an article on the "biggest things ever moved by road".
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: tomtom on July 30, 2020, 04:48:52 pm
From working on river bank protection that often uses large boulders. Once these get above 10 tonnes (eg 2.5 by 2 by 1m then you get into a whole new range of logistical problems - from the low loaders needed to move them down to the size of the machinery required to place them (and the machines to transport the machinery..). Basically it suddenly costs a shit load more once you get above a certain size.

It would be much more cost effective to buy an old quarry and make things out of the sides. With a big cafe and car park in the middle obvs.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Franco on July 30, 2020, 05:27:52 pm
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.


 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.


Surely you can see how daft this comment is? You could have said this prior to every past improvement in Trad standards.  Do you honestly think that no one is ever going to climb a Trad 9b?

There is no logic that we can call on to decide what we do and don't bolt. It is an entirely political decision, based on what people value at the time. We just have to be careful in that process not to knacker stuff up for future generations, as best we can.  There's never a perfect solution.  The Trad ethic in this country has arguably damaged the sport scene, and the bolting of stuff like the slate has done the same to the next level of Trad. Fortunately we have nowhere near exhausted the rock in these islands.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bonjoy on July 30, 2020, 06:21:48 pm

Artificial boulders will be well cool. But the limits of climbing are always going to be on real rock. No matter how good artificial walls and boulders get there will always be something harder on rock, its just harder to find. The thing about indoor setting and 3d printed designer boulders is that they’ll always be designed within or just beyond the limits of climbers at that point in time. Once the design process is deliberate and human there’ll always be a subconscious element of making it just possible or in the fashion of the times.
I don't buy this at all. It just reflects the current limited expectations and demands on setters and hence what setters produce. Can the species that produced Einstein and Mozzart not produce a setter capable of making a better arete than Angle Parfait? Creating a permanent masterpiece would be a whole different discipline, maybe more suited to time served developers rather than indoor setters. Developers know what makes a new problem work, the importance of the random factor, and what ruins a problem. In many ways all they'd have to do is replicate a flawed almost perfect outdoor line (these are ten a penny compared to actual perfect lines) and fix the defects and tweak/exaggerate the parameters of the best moves. Not rocket science and certainly a skill that would get better and better with practice.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on July 30, 2020, 07:24:29 pm
Yes I don’t disagree with that. Setters and technology probably will allow better problems than exist in nature to be fabricated. But if you are creating something with an audience and a purpose its almost always going to be within the limits of what you think possible at that time. And whats desired. I don’t know much about setting but im guessing all route setters at the tippy top level set their problems within a narrow band of what they feel is possible and just beyond possible for the climbers in the n minutes they get to try them? Thats likely be the same for these designer boulders. An unclimbable fabricated arete wouldnt be a boulder it would be a sculpture, art. But that’s maybe where your Mozart comes in?

I realise its stating the obvious that theres always something harder on real rock but I think its likely to stay true for a while yet. Strange thing is that if these boulder fabricators get good enough the desire to go out and find the next generation of pure hard lines is likely to dry up even more as the chance of finding those lines in nature gets slimmer and the fake boulders get better.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 12:03:21 am
Do any of the artificial boulders in England have any inkling of something decent?

I've only been to the ones in Glasgow, and think they are pretty good, some interesting features, and seem to have stood up to use, although the material is pretty harsh on the skin.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ru on July 31, 2020, 12:18:06 am
... and Mozzart ...

Half composer, half cheese.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 08:46:33 am
perfect complement to half man, half biscuit.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 31, 2020, 10:34:52 am
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.


 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.


Surely you can see how daft this comment is? You could have said this prior to every past improvement in Trad standards.  Do you honestly think that no one is ever going to climb a Trad 9b?



To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

It takes about 10 years to go up a half letter grade so 10b is 40+ years away but this will probably slow down. 8a+ trad was done in 1983 so we have only moved one and a half letter grades in nearly 40 years. I will most likely be dead by then so my thought process struggles beyond these time frames and by then we will probably have invented some kind of suction device that will make all routes a sports climb.

On top of that there are a lot of other things that stack up to give me confidence i am right.

Hard Trad climbing is a niche pastime and i suggest will become even more so.

None of the really good climbers have any interest in it. And i am talking really good here not 9a which is barely into half decent these days.

The traditional trad crags dont give opportunities for 9b routes and all the 9bs on the sports crags that would fit the bill for a hard trad route will be already bolted

Obviously if we all turn in to woodlice then it will be possible.

Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 10:39:39 am
I for one welcome our new woodlouse overlords.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Ally Smith on July 31, 2020, 12:01:16 pm

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: MischaHY on July 31, 2020, 01:24:05 pm

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html

Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 01:53:48 pm
I don't think it's the ability that's the issue it's the rock. It's unusual for rock to lead allow placements that lend themselves to relatively safe but very hard climbing, the insane cracks of the White Rim being an exception, and possibly places like Pembroke (are there any very hard projects left there?). Rock usually tends to be very blank, and needing bolting or relatively well endowed with holds and placements.

Who knows though, somewhere in the world there may be a 45 degree overhanging wall peppered with bomber rock 1 placements that are too small to be used as holds, and holds that lend themselves to very hard climbing.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on July 31, 2020, 02:17:39 pm
Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.

Did they give Century Crack 9a? Seems like that went down a lot faster than Recovery Drink at 8c+, very different styles I guess...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 02:21:29 pm
Think he means the as yet unclimbed Crucifix Project.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: 36chambers on July 31, 2020, 02:29:23 pm
Who knows though, somewhere in the world there may be a 45 degree overhanging wall peppered with bomber rock 1 placements that are too small to be used as holds, and holds that lend themselves to very hard climbing.

which will then probably be dogged to death with in-situ gear before the big lead anyway.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 31, 2020, 02:58:14 pm

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html

Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.

I did say its possible with cracks and could believe a 9b one may be found but these are pretty much sport routes without bolts.

Happy to be proved wrong and totally believe that one day 10c and harder will be climbed, 9b wont be very seen as hard, will be onsighted and will get climbed by average climbers not just the leading edge but i dont think that there will be any trad routes at that level and definitely not in the UK.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 04:53:57 pm
these are pretty much sport routes without bolts.

So trad routes then...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on July 31, 2020, 04:55:00 pm
one day 10c and harder will be climbed, 9b wont be very seen as hard

... and 9a will be approaching a rest.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on July 31, 2020, 10:53:59 pm
The hardest route in the world has a crack as it's V15 crux... #justsayin'
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on July 31, 2020, 11:04:28 pm
And lots of bolts.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on August 01, 2020, 08:58:17 am
Just waiting for someone to strip them and retro-trad it ;)

More seriously, I suspect the rock formations exist to have trad routes with  cutting edge sport difficulty (overhanging seams, well-spaced breaks with blank bits etc, imagine 8 Screaming Dreams stacked on each other...and tilted 20 degrees over). But the difficulty of working and doing them is another matter.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on August 03, 2020, 10:24:07 am
One of many examples springing up at the minute. 16 year old comp climber who’s been forced outside for the first time 3 months ago nips out between comps and climbs 8c+.

https://www.8a.nu/news/la-proue-debridee-8c+-by-mejdi-schalck-16
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on October 02, 2020, 12:39:48 pm
On the subject of the UK's hard bouldering potential:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tq3RlvbgpA

Quote
"If you're looking for some Font 8B+s, like many of them, and good ones, you should come and check this place out"

Quote
"It's a 2½ hour walk-in, and before that you've got an hour drive on a single track road"

That's all part of the 8 hour drive from Sheffield. And, yes, of course it is right in the very middle of the top band of highest rainfall here https://i.imgur.com/RpbTI91.png

 :2thumbsup:

 
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on October 02, 2020, 01:09:46 pm
wetter than an otter's pocket. Looks cool tho'

Always wondered why D.Mac hasn't developed the Ben More Blocs (pg 115 of the guide).
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Adam Lincoln on October 02, 2020, 01:25:31 pm
Wow that looks amazing!

Smalley caught on camera too, almost as rare as the stag.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: andy_e on October 02, 2020, 01:30:36 pm
Stags are ten-a-penny in the Highlands, that's why there's no trees and driving anything over 40 mph at night is suicidal
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on October 02, 2020, 02:28:49 pm

Smalley caught on camera too, almost as rare as the stag.

Darkest Dark Horse and Aurora in the same week, what a time to be alive.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Bradders on October 02, 2020, 03:51:34 pm
If ever there was a venue where an e-bike is highly recommended....
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Coops_13 on October 02, 2020, 03:59:54 pm
Hopefully the mellow boys were listening...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on October 02, 2020, 04:24:35 pm
You expect there to be anything amongst the endless bog and heather that pretends to be a path let alone a bikeable track??  :-\

I bet the midges are pretty high calibre too.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: gme on October 02, 2020, 04:59:04 pm
Looks amazing but it will just never work logistically. Why would the "Mellow boys" as Dave puts it go there when there is just as much stuff to do in Switzerland/Austria/Norway/south Africa etc etc.

The only way a place like this could ever work is to develop it 1st. Maybe an organised meet where loads of stuff gets done at once. There is a bothy in the valley i think that could be a base and some kind of vehicles to take the a big cache of pads in for everyone to use to make the walk in more palatable.

Late April- May or late Sept-Oct for the midge.

A portable bar, slacklines and a bongo drum party round a fire and it would be really popular.

A perfect plan but unfortunately it would piss down and everyone would wish they had gone to Rocklands.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: remus on October 02, 2020, 05:41:26 pm
Looks amazing but it will just never work logistically. Why would the "Mellow boys" as Dave puts it go there when there is just as much stuff to do in Switzerland/Austria/Norway/south Africa etc etc.

The only way a place like this could ever work is to develop it 1st. Maybe an organised meet where loads of stuff gets done at once. There is a bothy in the valley i think that could be a base and some kind of vehicles to take the a big cache of pads in for everyone to use to make the walk in more palatable.

Late April- May or late Sept-Oct for the midge.

A portable bar, slacklines and a bongo drum party round a fire and it would be really popular.

A perfect plan but unfortunately it would piss down and everyone would wish they had gone to Rocklands.

Just wait for the good weather then get Caff to fly everyone over in the chopper, then when the weather inevitably turns abandon the whole lot and fly out again.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: turnipturned on October 02, 2020, 08:16:03 pm
Funnily enough was actually thinking about checking this place out at the end of the month. Anyone got any details or point me in the right direction (not literally). Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: scragrock on October 02, 2020, 08:25:08 pm
If you have a Rib or just a wee tender, sailing/power boating in from the west is the quickest and least strenuous way to explore Glen Pean plus you can carry camping gear/extra pads.
An open canoe might work too.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on October 31, 2020, 12:53:08 pm
Further....

https://youtu.be/9z-c5YxEmCE?t=437

Interesting video as always, if the approach from 7:17 to 8:27 doesn't inspire the mellow team I don't know what will.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on October 31, 2020, 01:02:53 pm
Looks like the walk up to almscliff in deepest winter.

He is psyched off his face isn't he!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on October 31, 2020, 01:05:49 pm
Less cowpats than almscliff and if there were the constant bog would rinse them off.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: mrjonathanr on October 31, 2020, 01:41:12 pm
Is the title of this thread some sort of ironic comment on the endless rain?  :-\
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: JamieG on October 31, 2020, 03:10:30 pm
The irony is the weather looks great on Wednesday just in time for a new national lockdown. Someone’s got a sense of humour.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on March 06, 2021, 11:09:48 am
Billy Ridal on The Boss

https://www.climber.co.uk/news/news/billy-ridal-gets-third-ascent-of-the-boss/

Quote
Q: Finally, what have you got lined up for the year ahead – assuming that the covid restrictions are lifted soon as anticipated?

A: Competitions!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: teestub on March 06, 2021, 11:53:47 am
Hardest problem on grit is a warm up for comps.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 05, 2021, 02:41:43 pm
This topic is interesting to me, not because I'm remotely capable of even going near the easiest actual comp problem (I am not), but because I only just started climbing outdoors and to me it seems way, way harder than indoor stuff. I got seriously shut down at first on grades that indoors I can do consistently and I don't think that's unusual. In fact I am told it is really common?

But clearly there is an element where like, if you are really fucking good indoors, then when you go outdoors, you just breeze it even hard stuff that is at the level you operate at, as all these comp wads seem to do.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: M1V0 on April 05, 2021, 03:11:32 pm
My consideration of this phenomenon is that the difference between those transitioning from indoors to outdoors, as opposed to comps to outdoors, stems from competition climbers knowing how to try and pull, really hard. Most indoor stuff, compared to same grades outdoors, doesn’t require the same level of hard pulling and body tension. It takes people a while to get accustomed to this idea.

Comp climbers, on the other hand, are trained to produce max effort exertion for the duration of a climb for comps, and it is this that translates well to the outside, in a relatively short period of time. If you spend your time training for comps and a five minute period of max effort, you can do the same outdoors and see the results.

Reading this back, it’s an incoherent mess, but the idea is there, just poorly framed.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on April 05, 2021, 03:28:14 pm
Also, I think for the majority of climbers first venturing outdoors to boulder the default is grit (confirm Wellsy?) which takes a bit of getting used to to say the least, so be prepared to get your ass handed to you for the first few trips, until things start to click.....

and you realise the limiting factor is actually your skin.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 05, 2021, 03:36:58 pm
Yeah my first experience was on Grit late last year. I've also been on the Limestone and that is a lot closer to indoor climbing for sure, so yeah definitely if your first time out is Grit then it's a real shock to the system.

But yeah that's a good point about like, pulling really hard and staying focused and keeping your body tension. I guess if you are a comp climber in really bloody good shape, and you are used to climbing really hard, then you're just better equipped for it.

I think for the vast majority of climbers, the transition from indoors to outdoors is really hard for loads of reasons that people here will know much more about than me. But it just surprised me to read this topic and see comp climbers being the other way around. Like when the reasons are given it makes a degree of sense, it's just interesting.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: SA Chris on April 05, 2021, 03:42:59 pm
Can't remember the initial thrust, but I think it was also more leaning towards routes rather than bouldering.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 05, 2021, 05:44:05 pm
The reason I think comp climbers tend to fare okay outdoors is because they are good at climbing.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 05, 2021, 05:49:28 pm
That'd explain why I am terrible outdoors cos I am shite at climbing! It is all coming clear now.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: mrjonathanr on April 05, 2021, 06:12:50 pm
It takes time to adapt, to be fair, especially when footholds are no longer massive neon coloured ledges.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 05, 2021, 06:19:30 pm
Yeah although grit also adds an extra complexity in that it expects you to smear on stuff a lot more, and you don't get a lot of smearing inside I think. Even at the Works there's usually some shitty little slopey thing to say "put your foot here, idiot" whereas outdoors it's like I dunno mate pick a little ripple on the rock, stick your foot on it and hope it doesn't disappear under you. The bit where you hope it doesn't disappear under you is something I am going to be working on for a while I think...

Anyway yeah a bit diversiony from the thread topic but yeah just thought it was interesting is all.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on April 05, 2021, 06:21:30 pm
there's usually some shitty little slopey thing to say "put your foot here, idiot" whereas outdoors it's like I dunno mate pick a little ripple on the rock, stick your foot on it and hope it doesn't disappear under you
:lol: you should write an indoors-outdoors transition article.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: moose on April 05, 2021, 06:38:03 pm
Yeah although grit also adds an extra complexity in that it expects you to smear on stuff a lot more, and you don't get a lot of smearing inside I think. Even at the Works there's usually some shitty little slopey thing to say "put your foot here, idiot" whereas outdoors it's like I dunno mate pick a little ripple on the rock, stick your foot on it and hope it doesn't disappear under you. The bit where you hope it doesn't disappear under you is something I am going to be working on for a while I think...

Anyway yeah a bit diversiony from the thread topic but yeah just thought it was interesting is all.

It's not just grit that's like that - it also applies to polished limestone sport.  In non-Covid19 times, my winters were almost entirely spent bouldering indoors.  Then, come Spring, I would return to Malham and without fail, find that I had completely forgotten how to climb rock.  Warm-ups that I had done 100s of times before had become bewildering ordeals.

Eventually it always passed.  The mental transition was from "there are no footholds" and "all the handholds are horrible and painful" to "everything is a foothold, they're just all crap - smear harder and deal with it" and "be grateful for the painful handholds, at least they're positive".

And re the success of competition climbers... surprisingly, climbers good enough to be in elite, international standard development programmes are good at climbing!
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 05, 2021, 06:45:18 pm
Yeah although grit also adds an extra complexity in that it expects you to smear on stuff a lot more, and you don't get a lot of smearing inside I think. Even at the Works there's usually some shitty little slopey thing to say "put your foot here, idiot" whereas outdoors it's like I dunno mate pick a little ripple on the rock, stick your foot on it and hope it doesn't disappear under you. The bit where you hope it doesn't disappear under you is something I am going to be working on for a while I think...

Anyway yeah a bit diversiony from the thread topic but yeah just thought it was interesting is all.

It's not just grit that's like that - it also applies to polished limestone sport.  In non-Covid19 times, my winters were almost entirely spent bouldering indoors.  Then, come Spring, I would return to Malham and without fail, find that I had completely forgotten how to climb rock.  Warm-ups that I had done 100s of times before had become bewildering ordeals.

Eventually it always passed.  The mental transition was from "there are no footholds" and "all the handholds are horrible and painful" to "everything is a foothold, they're just all crap - smear harder and deal with it" and "be grateful for the painful handholds, at least they're positive".

And re the success of competition climbers... surprisingly, climbers good enough to be in elite, international standard development programmes are good at climbing!

Yeah. I don't think it's surprising to me that in all my 18 months of climbing indoors and out, probably the hardest outdoor problem I have done is Apprentice Wall at Anston because the holds being distinct and clear means that I can actually identify them, pull hard, and use the indoor skills properly. Most of the time the trouble I have is actually figuring out what I am bloody well supposed to be holding/standing on!

there's usually some shitty little slopey thing to say "put your foot here, idiot" whereas outdoors it's like I dunno mate pick a little ripple on the rock, stick your foot on it and hope it doesn't disappear under you
:lol: you should write an indoors-outdoors transition article.

I think that'd about be the extent of the distilled wisdom right there...
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: moose on April 05, 2021, 07:10:06 pm
Using bad smears is the climbing equivalent of those quantum mechanical thought experiments on the role of the observer. They are not footholds until you believe they are footholds, and imbue the essential quality of foothold-ness into them with your commitment (Schrödinger's smear?!). 

I vaguely remember a climber (I think Johnny Dawes) likening smeary grit climbing to cornering in a racing car.  The instinct is to be tentative but that leads to failure, slipping / not making it through the corner and smashing into the barrier.  To make smears into useable footholds, you have to commit wholeheartedly to them   Likewise, successful cornering in an F1 car requires a certain amount of speed (to generate the required downforce) - safety somewhat ironically requires suppressing the desire for self-preservation that tells you to slow down.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Whatthedickens on April 05, 2021, 07:38:39 pm
There's a whole lot of Dawes speak that while flowery can also be expressed in less contrived ways. Lets hear one of the comp parkour masters phrase it like Johnny,unlikely.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Muenchener on April 06, 2021, 07:47:58 am
Using bad smears is the climbing equivalent of those quantum mechanical thought experiments on the role of the observer. They are not footholds until you believe they are footholds, and imbue the essential quality of foothold-ness into them with your commitment (Schrödinger's smear?!). 

I recall Adrian Berry saying something similar in a coaching session: "a hold isn't a thing, it's an interaction between you and the rock"
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 06, 2021, 09:02:59 am
We used to have a saying 'the weighted foot never slips', which isn't 100% true but is a useful mantra. Transfer of weight needs to be deliberate not tentative; sticky rubber works by deforming to match the rock which can't happen if you paw at it. Sustained friction climbing does require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 06, 2021, 11:01:40 am
I am guessing the best way to gain confidence with smears outside is to just go to Burbage South a lot and repeat smeary slabs over and over?
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: dunnyg on April 06, 2021, 11:11:17 am
Other burbages are available, terms and conditions apply.
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Fiend on April 06, 2021, 11:12:21 am
And Burbage North Tiny Slab, and Stanage Lone Boulder, and Roaches Lower Tier Boulders, and the back of Ramshaw....
Title: Re: Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors
Post by: Wellsy on April 06, 2021, 11:27:14 am
Well as it happens I am off to Burbage West tonight with my mate to try Breakfast again so I might go down the valley a bit and try Tiny Slab in all it's various Krishna-like incarnations.
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