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« Last post by Duma on Today at 02:46:29 pm »
Thanks for the patronising nonsense webbo. I understand carbon plated shoes just fine thanks.
For 20 years most of the pro peleton was doping. Assume you agree that doesn't make it ok.
"Only as good as the runner" what an unmitigated crock of shit.
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I dip into that blog occasionally and its absolutely brutal. Very hard to read.
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« Last post by Nemo on Today at 02:43:56 pm »
Shauna's ascent is amazing. This is the wrong thread for this. But... "how hard is the scary bit" . And therein lies the fundamental problem. What you say is how many people use E grades (particularly those like yourself who don't spend much time climbing safe long cracks etc). Many others say how hard is it overall, which is the only thing that actually hangs together. Whilst ever that is the case, then people will continue to "philosophise" about it, as you put it, because currently it's a complete frickin shambles where someone gives E11 to something that someone else says is E8. At which point lots of people take Shark's view and say E grades should be ditched altogether. My point in this and other posts is just that it doesn't need to be a shambles. It could and should be completely straightforward, if people just accepted that "How hard is the scary bit" isn't a grading system. And it could be done without regrading large numbers of routes (as said above, for highballs, the way to avoid regrades is just to not use E grades at all). But I know continuing this with you isn't going to go anywhere useful. Thankfully a lot of guidebook writers these days are moving away from the silliness of the past and starting to do more sensible things.
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« Last post by webbo on Today at 02:33:41 pm »
would you be happy to chemically dope
OK, no aerobars in road racing, bad comparison, but carbon fames and rims, skinny tyres and bikes that weight about the same as one of the wheels on mine are all fair to compare.
You are struggling with you cycling comparisons Chris. No one rides skinny tyres in road races these days. 
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« Last post by Will Hunt on Today at 01:50:26 pm »
Sorry for your loss Sam and thanks for sharing on the forum.
For anyone interested, here's a long, very good (IMHO) article by philosopher Duncan Reyburn that he published about a month ago. Not that I'm agreeing with what he's written but I found it very thought provoking.
https://open.substack.com/pub/duncanreyburn/p/citizen-disposal?r=4n4mm&utm_medium=ios
I couldn't really get on with this for the same reason as Remus. It's unnecessarily belligerent and reads a bit like something Dan C might have posted on here at one time. Which is a shame because there's not really been much counter-argument presented, yet there are really important things to consider from the case against. Personally I'm in favour of some form of assisted dying, not least to avoid having circumstances where somebody dies prematurely because they feel pressure to take the action themselves before they're unable to do so. However, I'd favour a very limiting set of criteria for people to be eligible, and it would be really really hard to legislate and implement properly because of the variety in the individual circumstances in question. In terms of agency, people who are physically well might want to die, and might make a rational decision to do so, but we don't view this sort of suicide as "acceptable" (if one of your mates told you that they were planning suicide and described their reasons to you then you'd presumably try and stop them) and nor should we. Illnesses aren't binary. For many people living with dementia it is possible to live well for many years. A life at <100% is not necessarily not worth living. Having said that, I totally understand that for many people the disease may progress to a point where that person isn't living well - in that case I would choose assisted dying. It's worth bearing in mind that there are already procedures in place whereby people with mental capacity can choose to refuse certain treatments, which may mean that they don't survive when doctors might otherwise be able to keep them alive. e.g. https://www.resus.org.uk/respect/respect-healthcare-professionalsIf anybody wants a brutal read you can check out this blog: https://substack.com/@diaryofapunterPaul describes his climbing accident here: https://diaryofapunter.substack.com/p/on-breaking-my-neck-doing-what-i?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2Later on in the blog he describes his wish to die and says that he has applied to Dignitas, though maybe just to feel some sort of control. I've been wondering whether I think that assisted dying would be acceptable (under my own criteria) in his circumstances and this comment made me think that no, I don't think it is: https://open.substack.com/pub/diaryofapunter/p/the-baying?utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=54971209
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« Last post by chriss on Today at 01:47:17 pm »
Wow what a reply. I think you misunderstand carbon shoe.
A carbon shoe is only as good as the runner. For example they moved the pods back on the new Nike's because most runners don't land on them because they are shit runners. ASICS also have new plated shoes for different foot strikes. Hoka' have that heel to forefoot roll. I'd say most runners can't hold form for a marathon to get full use out of them, heel striking for X miles, rather than bouncing on a plate is pretty crap.
As for cheating, it's not. Anyone can buy them and most will be club runners looking for a pb or ego runners trying to look good. The eletes all wear them, so it's a case of talent, training & luck.
If you look at Kenya it's riddled by doping at the moment.
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« Last post by SA Chris on Today at 01:41:48 pm »
would you be happy to chemically dope False equivalence. If you look at any distance road run today, well over 2/3 of the field are on plated shoes. Not that it matters I'm not competing against them. Everything used to be simple until it was made complicated. Even bouldering. Running has always been about the kit, or else we would still be running in hobnail boots, cotton work shirts and woolen shorts. It's the shoes, the clothing, the accurate watch, the improved training methods and the easily consumed in race nutrition. OK, no aerobars in road racing, bad comparison, but carbon fames and rims, skinny tyres and bikes that weight about the same as one of the wheels on mine are all fair to compare.
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« Last post by Duma on Today at 01:04:42 pm »
Absolutely serious. I'm shocked that you would need to ask. From this to Oscar Pretorius' blades is just a matter of degree. Re your comment about all the help you can get, would you be happy to chemically dope, or give everyone not on springs a 4% headstart?
Running was the simplest thing. It was never about the kit. Now it is. Times pre and post the vapourfly cannot be meaningfully compared.
Cycling, skiing and climbing have always been about the kit, to greater or lesser degree. (Though I would say rubber kneepads are a much better comparison than down turned shoes)(and note that aerobars are not permitted in road racing)
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Shauna's ascent is amazing. Gav is obviously trolling. Reluctant as I am to continue this sorry 'debate'. Then, as should always be the case, you give it an E grade, consistent with how hard it would be to do other trad routes in an equivalent style. That's not what anyone has ever done though, because it's not useful info. Generally people want to know two things - how hard is the boulder problem, and how hard is the scary bit. E4 7a for West Side gives you this. Upgrading it because 7a is dead hard is pointless, we already have that information. If you do the 7a bit, you then have to do an E4 bit to get the tick - it's 6a move at 4m, which is why it's the same grade as The Knock, which is a slightly easier move slightly higher, although in that case it's only 6a to get there. The same logic applies to the other examples, and is the reason why Verandah buttress is still HVD despite a greater tech/trad discrepancy than West side. (At Slipstones they did get a bit carried away or confused admittedly, and as you go right along the crag the trad grades become superfluous. But it's an old guide now, and an isolated example. Honestly beggars belief why people philosophise about how they think grades should work, and then go back to complain about how they are wrong, rather than just looking at the given grade and applying some common sense to why it might have been given.
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« Last post by JamieG on Today at 12:12:01 pm »
Brilliant thanks.
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