UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: yorkshireman on July 21, 2011, 08:18:36 pm
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14224391 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14224391)
i was made aware of this by the leeds wall facebook page and have emailed simon armitage's management and asked them to contact the bmc with regard to where they decide to chisel.anyone else has anything to add or any information on locations that have already been done please add to the thread
cheers
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:o The hubris is breathtaking.
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i think this is a very retrograde and ill judged project. i am writing to his management to express my objection to it and i think anyone else who values the moors in their natural state should do so to.
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with some of the work taking place on location.
Just intrigued about what other choices are available?
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Sounds like an egotistical "look at me" project with no thought or consideration for the consequences. Fucking poets.
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with some of the work taking place on location.
Just intrigued about what other choices are available?
You know like them millstone stonemasons used to do. Roll a boulder home (early working from home initiative), carve the millstone and then roll it back for walkers to hunt out. The "Definitive Guide to Millstones" will be available from Vertebrate Graphics this Autumn. Getting ticking.
It does seem a little short sighted to carve into the rock. Surely if you wanted to do this there plenty of easier and less destructive ways. Something discreet for example carve into an existing stone(s) in a dry stone wall and place it vertically.
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Sounds like an egotistical "look at me" project with no thought or consideration for the consequences. Fucking poets.
:agree: :badidea:
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Wonder if the BMC are aware of this?
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Wonder if the BMC are aware of this?
I have fired an e-mail of to Martin Kocsis this morning. I believe this under Rick Gibbons area but not sure. The land is owned by the National trust so I assume they will have requested permission off of them?
I can't see the video at work is it clear what wall they have done this on?
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Yeah that's Rick's area - who knows about the rest though. I don't have any issue with this per se, as long as it is done only in suitable spots. To that end they definitely need to consult before carving.
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Nice one Flukas, let us know what he says. I might pop up on Sunday if we don't end up in Gogarth and take some pics.
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You lot are a bunch of fucking hippies. Some of us like poetry and the fact that I wont have to carry my poetry book to the crag in order to read some makes it more convenient for me, so I think it's good and you're all wrong.
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Except his stuff looks to be a load of pretentious wank. But maybe that's just up your street :)
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You'd have to be pretty confident in the merit of your work to want to have it carved in stone.
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You lot are a bunch of fucking hippies. Some of us like poetry and the fact that I wont have to carry my poetry book to the crag in order to read some makes it more convenient for me, so I think it's good and you're all wrong.
Word.
I think this could only be enhanced by a couple of in-situ quickdraws at each end of the prose acting as quotation marks.
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A little more objectively, I think any hubris here is being shown by climbers, who have already chipped fuck out of yorkshire's crags whether intentionally (Ilkley, Caley etc) or not (Bridestones), or leave more obvious graffiti in the form of chalk, 'temporary' though it may be.
Or you could imagine a situation where a bunch of landscape poets are presented with a climber's proposal to place over a thousand metal eyebolts into national treasure Malham Cove - just to make things a bit safer for themselves. Fair enough?
Edit: just had confirmation that the BMC's rep for the area was aware of the first one. Not sure if this extended to a consulation but watching that vid it seems placed on a spot not valuable to climbers - perhaps no coincidence. Will update if I get more info.
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It's not just about whether or not it will have any impact on the climbing.
There is a horrid irony to this, creativity inspired by beautiful natural landscape, being permanently placed in the landscape, defacing it and ruining the natural beauty!
National Trust have given permission, I've written an email asking them to rethink:
enquiries@thenationaltrust.org.uk
The project is also part of the Ilkley Literature Festival who can be contacted here:
development@ilkleyliteraturefestival.org.uk
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You lot are a bunch of fucking hippies. Some of us like poetry and the fact that I wont have to carry my poetry book to the crag in order to read some makes it more convenient for me, so I think it's good and you're all wrong.
Word.
I think this could only be enhanced by a couple of in-situ quickdraws at each end of the prose acting as quotation marks.
And underline some words in chalk in case they have a hidden meaning or are difficult to grasp.
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Instead of employing a stone mason to chisel it all neat like.Could they not get someone on here to use their drill to chisel the words and if they did them a bit random we could have some new problems.
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Instead of employing a stone mason to chisel it all neat like.Could they not get someone on here to use their drill to chisel the words and if they did them a bit random we could have some new problems.
Sounds like a job for Medwards.
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Someone should carve a limerick into his drive. See how he likes it.
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It's not just about whether or not it will have any impact on the climbing.
There is a horrid irony to this, creativity inspired by beautiful natural landscape, being permanently placed in the landscape, defacing it and ruining the natural beauty!
National Trust have given permission, I've written an email asking them to rethink:
enquiries@thenationaltrust.org.uk
The project is also part of the Ilkley Literature Festival who can be contacted here:
development@ilkleyliteraturefestival.org.uk
I'm not sure any of the scenery in Yorkshire can really be called natural. It has been extensively farmed, quarried and managed for hundreds of years. I agree it is a rural landscape but not really anymore natural than typical farmland. In fact, I feel a lot of the appeal of places like Yorkshire is the interaction between man and the environment. The old mill towns in the bottom of the valley's are just as interesting as the rugged sheep grazed moors on top. I think just trying to maintain the status quo and not allowing any new ideas and projects to be put forward is sometimes a bit short-sighted. I do agree, however, that any projects need to be carefully considered. But possibly try to avoid the knee-jerk reaction of let's just keep everything the same. I, for one, wouldn't mind coming across the occasional well thought out arty installation.
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is there a danger that people seeing the nicely carved rocks will attempt carvings of their own?
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suprised there are many rocks left to carve in yorkshire
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Someone should carve a limerick into his drive. See how he likes it.
There once was a poet from Marsden
Who wanted a stone to carve words on
His poems were shit
They ruined the grit
So he can fuck off
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Pic of it being carved here:
(http://www.ilkleyliteraturefestival.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_2095.jpeg)
So its off the climbing, and on part of a wall, I'm not too fussed TBH...
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Someone should carve a limerick into his drive. See how he likes it.
I can't find anything to rhyme with Armitage.
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There once was a poet from Marsden
Who wanted a stone to carve words on
His poems were shit
They ruined the grit
So he can fuck off
Inspired...
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You miserable gits! Ra-ra-ra get oorf my grit! You sound like Farmer Palmer. Please allow me to retort:
There once was an internet climber
Who was a continual whiner
He didn't like art
So he ripped it apart
He'll never be cool like Grimer.
:P
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I quite like some of his poems, especially the one about the sperm whale. Would be psyched if that was there to greet me every time I walked up to the roaches!!!
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I quite like some of his poems, especially the one about sperm. Would be psyched if that was there to greet me every time I walked up to the roaches!!!
Whatever floats your boat ;)
While he's at his chipping, can he do a short poem in block capitals along the left arete of Jason's roof at Crookrise........Ta
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Infidel! (http://people.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/~fdosr01/blog/high-rocks/infidel.jpg)
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Having had the initial knee-jerk reaction I have to say I think I agree with JamieG. So long as this is done sensitively then I think there is a place for it. I remember being quite pleased when I stumbled across the 'Lady in the River' on Ilkley.
Problems:
* What Dobbin said. This shouldn't be a common practice.
* I don't like they way they say the landscape is "enhanced". Some people's experience of the landscape may be enhanced but not everybody's. In fact some will think quite the opposite.
*"Giving poetry back to the landscape". Perhaps I'm a Philistine but could somebody explain what the frig this means? I'm not sure anybody ever took poetry away from the landscape. Why can't these pretentious prats speak plainly? Ooo, sorry. I must not be 'deep' enough :wank:
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Do you think he carves his work on his gritstone phallus too?
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I bet he polishes it smooth tho so he doesn't have a misfortune like someone else
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Poetic licence ....
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:chair: :chair: :chair: :chair: :chair:
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Ilkley quarry was one of the initial locations for a poem, not sure if its still the case, perhaps a one liner beneath Superset could give me something better to stand on with plenty of "T"s "L"s and "Z"s, and a letter "W" for the starting hold so there's a good choice of crimps.
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Some BETA chiselled beneath probs might be more practical than poems?
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A little more objectively, I think any hubris here is being shown by climbers, who have already chipped fuck out of yorkshire's crags whether intentionally (Ilkley, Caley etc) or not (Bridestones), or leave more obvious graffiti in the form of chalk, 'temporary' though it may be.
Or you could imagine a situation where a bunch of landscape poets are presented with a climber's proposal to place over a thousand metal eyebolts into national treasure Malham Cove - just to make things a bit safer for themselves. Fair enough?
Edit: just had confirmation that the BMC's rep for the area was aware of the first one. Not sure if this extended to a consulation but watching that vid it seems placed on a spot not valuable to climbers - perhaps no coincidence. Will update if I get more info.
So it's ok to carve graffiti in the rock so long as you're middle class and call yourself a landscape poet? And it's hypocritical for a climber to be critical because idiots years ago chipped some holds and because we place bolts on limestone? Bolts aside, do two wrongs make a right? Even if climbers didn't have a collective leg to stand on it wouldn't make this any more right or sensible in my (miserable whiner's) book. As someone else pointed out this could plausible encourage more graffiti by non-middle class non landscape poets.
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Perish the possibility ...
... but lets not bring class into it.
Its soo passe man.
I'm orf for another glaaaass of port daaaarling x
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suprised there are many rocks left to carve in yorkshire
that was my initial worry.as ive stated,if its done as in the picture on a bit of rock thats not likely to be climbed on,or away from a main climbing area then i dont see much of a problem but you would have expected something that permenant to have invited some consultation from other users of the moors
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A little more objectively, I think any hubris here is being shown by climbers, who have already chipped fuck out of yorkshire's crags whether intentionally (Ilkley, Caley etc) or not (Bridestones), or leave more obvious graffiti in the form of chalk, 'temporary' though it may be.
Or you could imagine a situation where a bunch of landscape poets are presented with a climber's proposal to place over a thousand metal eyebolts into national treasure Malham Cove - just to make things a bit safer for themselves. Fair enough?
Edit: just had confirmation that the BMC's rep for the area was aware of the first one. Not sure if this extended to a consulation but watching that vid it seems placed on a spot not valuable to climbers - perhaps no coincidence. Will update if I get more info.
So it's ok to carve graffiti in the rock so long as you're middle class and call yourself a landscape poet? And it's hypocritical for a climber to be critical because idiots years ago chipped some holds and because we place bolts on limestone? Bolts aside, do two wrongs make a right? Even if climbers didn't have a collective leg to stand on it wouldn't make this any more right or sensible in my (miserable whiner's) book. As someone else pointed out this could plausible encourage more graffiti by non-middle class non landscape poets.
I understand the point you're making, but the general climbing populous does have a somewhat esoteric view of what constitutes environmentally sound practice.
I would guess that the vast majority of Joe public would be somewhat bewildered that we (as a broad group) vitriolically condemn "chipping" in, say, Shipley Glen on the one hand, whilst happily taking a big fuck off drill to do pretty much the same thing on another kind of rock.
It is, unfortunately perhaps, a very fair point indeed.
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I already acknowledged this point in what i said. Yes climbers put bolts in crags. Personally I don't think climbers' bolting precludes us from having an opinion on this or any other activity seeking to change the landscape (which is what I meant by two wrongs not making a right). Where does this differ from objection to 4x4 use or Burbage zip-wires, neither of which is considered hypocritical because of bolting?
My statement that this is hubris has nothing to do with rock climbing or anything rock climbers do. To me as a human being it seems hubristic for someone to think that stamping their utterances upon the landscape for all eternity will somehow add value. Personally I think the landscape speaks well enough for itself, it doesn't need 'the man' to re-interpret it.
In the grand scheme of things I can see that the BMC are probably best giving a nod and a wink to this given their role and the importance of cosying up to the National Trust. It does surprise me that so many people seem to think it's a good idea though.
Consider this. A year or two back a local lad committed suicide by throwing himself off the top of Wimberry. In memorial to his life his friends carved RIP Danny and cannabis leaf symbols all over the base of the crag. Personally I though that regardless of the sentiments behind it this was an ugly mess which should not have happened, most climbers where of this view. How could i possibly object to this if i didn't object to some random guy being paid to chip graffiti at other crags for much less worthy reasons?
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...which is all eminently sensible...
and yet, in principle, the "mess" you mentioned at the top of Wimberry is no more, or less, objectionable than carving a poem, or drilling limestone (something which you yourself have done IIRC?)
These are all instances of people making fairly minor alterations to rock, ostensibly for the benefit of a few, and probably to the mild, or more serious, disapproval of a few more. They are issues pertaining to the "micro-aesthetics" of an area and I would venture they're not particularly comparable to the larger scale issues you mentioned. Though many will rightly disagree with that statement - its not black and white.
As climbers I think that our main objections to rock damage are first and foremost ethical ones, secondarily aesthetic (why, otherwise would we be happy to bolt some crags but not others?) and only very marginally environmental. In fact, I reckon that most of our "environmental" concerns are very much nimbyistic. Invoke when it suits, sack it otherwise.
I don't think that's a harsh judgement of our lot, but I think it does pay to step back a little and accommodate another point of view or two, even if it does jar our initial instincts.
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from where i sit most climbers, actually this can be extended to the human race per se (just incase anyone is worried i include my selves), can't see the wood or the trees ...
... just look at the mess of all kinds at popular crags (and the quiet ones too) and other landscapes too.
If a craving (or rock painting) adds beauty to an area then what's the problem?
Crap art (graffiti or whatever it is is crap - pretty easily identifiable in my opinion (just ask me ; ) if you're unsure)...
its the difference between the artist having an open heart/mind and not. SOme acts are done consciously and so much many more are the working of the unconscious.
And we all know what the unconscious looks like, don't we Patrul?
Yes, gollum.
Rabbit.
Its the difference between love and war.
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If a craving
a craving for chiselled rock? :whistle:
i dont necessarily think anyone has the right to say someone can or cannot do these types of poetry carving,i just posted the topic to let people know what was going on whohadn't heard about it and hoped to get more information from people in the know.i think its more about finding a common ground through consultation with relevant parties i.e. the carver and the bmc so some common ground can be found.life works so much better through co-operation :)
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...which is all eminently sensible...
and yet, in principle, the "mess" you mentioned at the top of Wimberry is no more, or less, objectionable than carving a poem, or drilling limestone (something which you yourself have done IIRC?)
That is exactly my point. If you are ok with the commisioned graffiti then you have little moral right to object to non-commisioned graffiti (big smiley face in the middle of Angel's Share anyone, it's for charity?). You're then into the murky business of making arbitrary calls as to what is worthy/unworthy and what is/isn't visually acceptable.
If a craving (or rock painting) adds beauty to an area then what's the problem?
Yes, if, but who decides if? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one man's meat etc. Poetry carved in wild places offends my aesthetics but not that of others on UKB. It strikes me as being like a tattoo which might seem like a good idea now, but who knows how it will be viewed in 50-100 years time.
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In most cases the person with the tattoo will be dead in 100 years. :)
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Just to be clear, I'm not personally enthusiastic about this in principle, nor are any of the other BMC access reps, or office as far as I'm aware. However I can think of a couple of spots where carved text does add something to the landscape though - Wizard's Well at Alderley Edge would be the best example.
You're then into the murky business of making arbitrary calls as to what is worthy/unworthy and what is/isn't visually acceptable.
Sure. Which means the only calls you make are the ones where its not so arbitrary. I think if you look at the photo above, the piece of rock being carved is not one its worth getting into a stink over, especially now its done.
I brought the bolt argument in because if I had to defend climbers to a poet, and they brought it up, I would have to concede the argument. Two wrongs may not make a right but you'd still look like a massive self-serving hypocrite.
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...which is all eminently sensible...
and yet, in principle, the "mess" you mentioned at the top of Wimberry is no more, or less, objectionable than carving a poem, or drilling limestone (something which you yourself have done IIRC?)
That is exactly my point. If you are ok with the commisioned graffiti then you have little moral right to object to non-commisioned graffiti (big smiley face in the middle of Angel's Share anyone, it's for charity?). You're then into the murky business of making arbitrary calls as to what is worthy/unworthy and what is/isn't visually acceptable.
If a craving (or rock painting) adds beauty to an area then what's the problem?
Yes, if, but who decides if? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one man's meat etc. Poetry carved in wild places offends my aesthetics but not that of others on UKB. It strikes me as being like a tattoo which might seem like a good idea now, but who knows how it will be viewed in 50-100 years time.
And indeed I don't object to the random graffiti, any more than the poems, or bolting.
To be clear, I don't think that any of them are particularly fantastic, nor do I think they're particularly worth fussing over. Bearing in mind, of course, that there must be a line in the sand somewhere: 6 foot neon graffiti, similarly scaled poetry, rusting clusters of badly drilled bolts...all probably too much. Decorum, consultation with stakeholders, compromise...blah blah.
Clearly, the reason no one is too fussed on here is that the carvings ain't on, say, the pebble (which, incidentally, looks blatantly loved to death on a good day) and this viewpoint is well illustrated by your ponderings on the Angel's Share slab; lest you forget the only reason anyone can get onto it is the chipped runnel, which is obviously fine.
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Ding ding, seconds out ...
JIbe there's as much chance of you getting a tatt, as me growin a full beard = zero :(
A little off tangent for the lateral thinkers amongst us but all is one ... here goes ...
Tatt's are bad, very bad, they mess the lymphatic systum up. Plus its a scar!
Who owns ones body anyway when we come from the earth and all the attributing elements?
Chipping, scrapping lichen off rock its the same crime.
The thing called civilsation is a mockery of humanities fullest expression ...we're like children in a toy shop with allsorts of deadly toys, ideas, actions ... no need for a list, we all know on some level or other the insanity that's peddled in the name of progress and so called evolution.
What is the rush?
Seems like fear of death to me and not enough time to stuff our ego's full of even more detiritus.
Greed runs amok like some kind of viral undercurrent.
THE QUest for some fleeting glory hovers infront of our every move, so much so that the journey is lost to the goal.
Conquested success, leads to another desire, needs must fulfill the endless cesspit of wanting and so it goes ...
The slower i go the deeper my success and failure, two side of the same coin ...
I have often wondered something i can't remember ...
... that thoughts passed back into the ether.
THis will have to do, its to do with anal retention. Its a fairly accurate generralisation ... why is it climbing walls, or rather climbers, are such tense places?
I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know i now know ... its because we are mostly dealing with fear (and the energetics of competition, but that's another issue). IN the bodies energy system fear, of any type - physical, emotional, mental, etc is stored in the perineum. As climbing is a sphere of fear the perinum tightens and in many cases remains contracted. Just observe and check it out in any situation that causes fear. I find the less i need to do something, eg a problem, the more i can relax. This relaxing opens up all my body, giving me more freedom, power and flexibility - very interesting. As for many climbing walls I'm throughly bored of these dreadfully serious places, though of course pockets of freedom exist. Too many bananas in the tail pipes! My levels of personal constipation are dissipating and i'm jolly happy about that. I'm sure this all ties into chipping somehow - maybe someone can see a link?
P.S. Beauty is easily indentifable - but i'll have to charge for that info.
Opinions are like the waters in the river ...
I'm goint tut stick to sniffing Daisy's flower!
Off to N Wales soon for some trad, i aint done that for years, rather looking forward to it, what!
P.S. I anyone sees the Boy of Joy give his beard a caress from me XXX
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your better off posting crap like that on ukc :goodidea:
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your better off posting crap like that on ukc :goodidea:
I agree.
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your better off posting crap like that on ukc :goodidea:
I agree.
I don't. Stick around PATRul
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A memorial stone was set into the bank: “Here John Turner was cast away in a heavy snowstorm in the night in or about the year 1755.” - Thursbitch
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I like your babble. It's total nonsense but that won't phase me.
IN the bodies energy system fear, of any type - physical, emotional, mental, etc is stored in the perineum. As climbing is a sphere of fear the perinum tightens and in many cases remains contracted.
This bit is especially wrong. Stress causes a slackening of the guts hence why you might shit in fear.
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A memorial stone was set into the bank: “Here John Turner was cast away in a heavy snowstorm in the night in or about the year 1755.” - Thursbitch
I fucking love that book
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This bit is especially wrong. Stress causes a slackening of the guts hence why you might shit in fear.
This is off topic but......I was under the impression stress causes constipation and adrenaline shuts your guts down. The whole "shitting yourself in fear" thing being a misnomer.
Any medical types/coprophiles keen to comment?
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This bit is especially wrong. Stress causes a slackening of the guts hence why you might shit in fear.
This is off topic but......I was under the impression stress causes constipation and adrenaline shuts your guts down. The whole "shitting yourself in fear" thing being a misnomer.
Any medical types/coprophiles keen to comment?
I'm neither, but have you ever noticed that often, as you're mulling over the impending decision to get on a necky route, you feel the need for a shit?
I have, and I'm told that this is due to the affect of adrenaline on your gut, technically known as "sphincter wink"
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This bit is especially wrong. Stress causes a slackening of the guts hence why you might shit in fear.
This is off topic but......I was under the impression stress causes constipation and adrenaline shuts your guts down. The whole "shitting yourself in fear" thing being a misnomer.
You recon? watch this:
Boogie 'til You Poop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHVLdhXqmU0#ws)
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Stress causes the guts to produce adrenocorticotrophin (ACTH), along with ATP and a number of other things (I think ACTH is the main one - normally found in the hypothalamus and pituatiary system in the brain), this definitely aggravates IBS, and may cause milder symptoms in non-IBS err well it's been tested in colons and other bits of intestine from mice, guinea-pigs and the like.
Causes a number of things to happen, the most noticeable (other than emptying of the bowels) is contraction of the muscle wall, i.e. the feeling of a knot in your stomach, which I'm sure we've all had and this contributes to the need to err relieve the extra pressure.
I could go on, but the science gets a bit more confusing and even more disgusting from here...
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SCIENCE.
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I could go on, but the science gets a bit more confusing and even more disgusting from here...
Go on, spill your guts, this isn't mumsnet...
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You've clearly never been on mumsnet. No gory detail of childbirth is overlooked.
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You've clearly never been on mumsnet. No gory detail of childbirth is overlooked.
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childrens_health/913766-slight-poo-incontinence-in-3-year-old-any-ideas (http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childrens_health/913766-slight-poo-incontinence-in-3-year-old-any-ideas)
3.5 year old dd does a lot of what I can only call "wet farts"
"p.s she always ate a lot of fruit, i did wonder if that contributed."
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Les ainsworth has confirmed that cows mouth quarry is an intended location and is looking for opinions. I daresay his email is on the bmc website. I'll pop it up on here in a mo.
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Probably let folk go via his profile on the BMC site unless you want to deluge him in spam...