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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: TobyD on November 19, 2022, 08:17:25 am
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Watch or boycott? I'd usually watch at least some of the world cup but feel pretty revolted at almost everything about this one.
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I normally love the World Cup but I can’t do this one. Simply unjustifiable this time. We’re all hypocrites about lots of things in life, turning a blind eye when it suits, but there has to be some lines you won’t cross.
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Virtually none of the people and organisations who could and should have made a difference to it by boycotting or even speaking out (football associations, players, ex-players, fans who actually go to World Cups etc.) did so there’s no point me making the token gesture of not watching matches on the telly because it wouldn’t affect the state of Qatar or FIFA but it would affect me.
I intended to boycott all the sponsors (https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/commercial/partners) but I’ve just realised that one’s Visa who it will probably be impossible to avoid using.
I will be watching fewer matches than usual (I watched every one in 2018) though because
-It’s hard to get psyched because the whole thing stinks.
-There are four matches a day for most of the group stage which is just too many and quite a few are while I’m working.
-A late autumn World Cup. Just that detail means it doesn’t feel like a World Cup.
It’s of course not the first time that it’s been held in a dodgy country (1934, 1978 and 2018 being the previous ones) but what’s amazing to me is how inappropriate a host Qatar is on simply practical levels and how little they’re doing to make it like an actual World Cup. Russia surely set the standard of hosting a completely normal tournament that even the “wokest” sections of the world’s media felt compelled to cover in the classic “they’ve been great hosts, everywhere you go it’s been a fantastic atmosphere, we’ve seen no crowd trouble, it’s really made me realise what a great country this is etc. etc.” manner that’s surely the target for hosting big sporting events when you’re a dictatorship but Qatar don’t seem to really care about that (the facilities for fans are apparently shaping up to be “a cross between the Fyre Festival and Woodstock 99” :lol: ) and are rolling back the compromises they made in that direction with hours to go. :popcorn: Hopefully it will be a complete embarrassment for FIFA with the external factors overshadowing the football even in the mainstream sport media because that’s the only way at this stage that any progress can be made on their utter corruption.
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I don’t agree that not watching it, won’t have an effect. If enough people refuse to engage that does have an impact.
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One thing is for certain, Quatar is hosting an event for millionaires. The experience of being there sounds absolutely terrible, unless you are extremely wealthy, and only passingly interested in football.
I'm very far from having any great insight on football, though I usually enjoy watching it; does the timing not mean that the European teams or players that play in European leagues will be knackered? As far as I understand virtually everyone thinks it's going to either Brazil or Argentina anyway.
I'd like to think I'd avoid it all, but I'll probably end up watching a few bits.
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Ludicrous attempt to justify decision by FIFA. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/19/fifa-gianni-infantino-world-cup-qatar
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This is definitely the least interested I've ever been in a world cup. I'd normally be quite excited but I hadn't actually realised this one begins today. Too much about it is wrong - location, politics and timing. :thumbsdown:
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Quatar is a more suitable country to hold an international sporting event than China or Russia. And no country in which corruption is held in check and there is vibrant local democracy will ever host a major sporting event again. (Paris, I am looking at you.) So I am just as fine with the world cup being held in Quatar as in any other poorly run city. "Just as fine" means that I will ignore it to the same degree as I ignore all major sport events.
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It isn’t really the bribery that bothers me so much. I mean it’s not great, but I can accept that. It’s the fact it is built by essentially modern slavery and resulted in an eye-watering number of deaths. That’s what I can’t deal with.
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I would be much surprised if major infrastructure projects in Russia or China had fewer deaths among workers than in Q, or if they exploited poor workers from central Asia in a less systematic way. It is not like their workers are unionised or can count on independent investigations into workplace accidents.
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Yeah, I don’t know jwi, you could be right. The whole thing is a mess. Shows the effectiveness of sports-washing, that we mostly just accept it.
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does the timing not mean that the European teams or players that play in European leagues will be knackered?
Yes. Top level football’s basically been going on non-stop since it restarted after the pandemic. The reason there are five subs now is to mitigate the inevitable injuries.
It’s going to be fascinating to see how it affects the Premier League when it restarts. As it stands the clubs with the fewest World Cup-bound players have had (as you’d expect) the poorest start to the season but they’re basically getting a winter break while teams whose entire squad is playing in Qatar are having the complete opposite. Signings of Italian, Norwegian, Swedish etc. stars from this past summer look particularly shrewd.
As far as I understand virtually everyone thinks it's going to either Brazil or Argentina anyway.
South American teams usually win World Cups held outside Europe but not always and not for a while so maybe we’re due one.
It’s certainly hard to think of a European side who are truly “in a good moment” going into this but many of them look great on paper and some like Germany and Portugal should never ever be discounted because they’re so good at “finding a way” to win. Germany in particular haven’t gone into a tournament with such low expectations on them since unification which will work in their favour. France have the strongest squad but have their characteristic interpersonal troubles in the team.
Argentina are unbeaten since the last World Cup and won the Copa America, Messi is on great form and the death of Maradona seemed weirdly to lift the mental block he had when playing for his country. I think they’ll win it myself. Brazil’s chances are overstated going into every World Cup and I don’t think this one’s an exception personally, mainly because their defensive midfield is based around Casemiro and Fred and they still play Thiago Silva at the back. I haven’t watched a South American nation play a full game since the last World Cup mind :lol:.
You’ve got to have a dark horse side that you reckon will do well (get to the semis unexpectedly I guess) but ends up doing nothing and the popular ones at Denmark and Uruguay. I’m going for Senegal even if Mané isn’t fit in time.
no country in which corruption is held in check and there is vibrant local democracy will ever host a major sporting event again
Can you give us a list of countries and sporting events that fit your criteria?
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I’d normally watch the World Cup despite not being a lover of football regularly.
Bollocks to it this year though, I didn’t watch the Russian propaganda show and I’ve been keenly aware of the massive amount of worker deaths associated with the current shambles.
I’m not sure sure I agree with you about the worker deaths jiwi, granted that those countries don’t have the track record we do on keeping people alive while they do their day job ( some nutters call that health and safety gone mad ). However knowing some guys who’ve worked out there building the stadiums and been told the horror stories first hand I’m pretty confident that this will be the highest number of construction worker fatalities for a World Cup in the recent times.
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I usually watch loads of matches, doubt I'll watch any this time I'm sorry to say.
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As one radio show said, 'getting Quatar Money out of the UK is like trying to get the egg out of a baked cake'.
It's in everything from Harrods to Seven Trent water. I don't agree with the country, but the football being there makes very little difference in reality. Plenty of other sports have been held in dodgy countries without people kicking off. I'm not sure why this has upset so many people?
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I think Quatar is a less appropriate place than Russia despite them both being politically horrible places, Russia actually has some interest in football; a national team which has been okay at times, and a reasonable club or two; Quatar has no history of football whatsoever, they're clearly only hosting it to publicize themselves as a tourist destination, although I can't possibly imagine wanting to go there specifically myself.
For anyone interested 'The rest is history ' podcast has a great 2 part history of the world cup, with some entertaining trivia in it.
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As one radio show said, 'getting Quatar Money out of the UK is like trying to get the egg out of a baked cake'.
It's in everything from Harrods to Seven Trent water. I don't agree with the country, but the football being there makes very little difference in reality.
Much like Russia then?
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To everyone but Cheque: by all means slag them off, but surely you lose some of the intellectual highground when you repeatedly fail to spell the country's 5-letter name?
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See.. they don't even respect the 'u after q' rule!
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See.. they don't even respect the 'u after q' rule!
;D
The 2018 World Cup in Russia was sports washing for, as we're now finding out, an even more repellent regime. However Russia and the USSR has a long history of club and international football so it felt like a legitimate place to hold the competition even if the bid was as bent as a corkscrew. Plus beer counts as a soft drink there. Qatar has a population the size of Nottingham (or the Birmingham area if you include ex-pats) and no football culture whatsoever (except amongst some of the ex-pats). It is the obviousness of the charade that has put everyone's noses out.
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As one radio show said, 'getting Quatar Money out of the UK is like trying to get the egg out of a baked cake'.
It's in everything from Harrods to Seven Trent water. I don't agree with the country, but the football being there makes very little difference in reality.
Much like Russia then?
Yeah, sadly the UK is full of dirty money.
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To everyone but Cheque: by all means slag them off, but surely you lose some of the intellectual highground when you repeatedly fail to spell the country's 5-letter name?
Conceded, fair enough.
Although, isn't it an anglicised version of the Arabic name anyway?
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As one radio show said, 'getting Quatar Money out of the UK is like trying to get the egg out of a baked cake'.
It's in everything from Harrods to Seven Trent water. I don't agree with the country, but the football being there makes very little difference in reality.
Much like Russia then?
Yeah, sadly the UK is full of dirty money.
Although, my comparison with Russia may not be very appropriate, given that Qatar was a British protectorate until 1971, perhaps it's not surprising there are some links.
I was also unaware that only 12% of the population of Qatar are Qatari, there's a great article about the place here, https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-football-on-a-heavy-acid-trip-but-the-qataris-have-what-they-crave-the-worlds-attention-wvz03vmq9?shareToken=ad75c7167b7d9141c61a38612a2d3f32
(Paywall I'm afraid)
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https://twitter.com/MrMichaelSpicer/status/1594644597577506817?t=_CKhtpVT7qn4QbMQQxdEHg&s=19
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Great stat on BBC, the last person to score against Wales 8n the world Cup was... Pele.
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I'm not able to fully articulate it at this point but this whole world cup makes me very uneasy. Glorifying a country which has such deplorable laws in place right now does not sit well with me. And FIFA, nor anyone else seem to be able to justify it in any reasonable, well argued way.
The comparison with Russia is also a bit shit as it's a bit like saying well you weren't all up in arms about the GBH that I committed so why are you now annoyed about the murder? A clumsy analogy I know, it's a half baked idea in my head but the point stands - my ignorance of the issues with Russia last time does not mean that it is ok to ignore the issues with Qatar now.
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Qui tacet consentire videtur. It's some display of power. The suggestion that being there facilitates using the platform to highlight issues is not borne out by the commentators and players that are there. The fact is, participation is an endorsement. If they felt that bad about the Qatari record, associations would not send their teams to the tournament.
I won't be watching.
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How can one support international football when this is the pinnacle? I feel for the kids in my class. First World Cup in their memory and it's this... I can't even tell them why I have zero interest because I'd probably get put in front of the governors. Sport is a wonderful thing but this is utter bollocks.
Rugby World Cup this year kids! Get it before it gets banned (though, judging from Iran's keeper today, concussion apparently isn't a thing....)
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How can one support international football when this is the pinnacle? I feel for the kids in my class. First World Cup in their memory and it's this... I can't even tell them why I have zero interest because I'd probably get put in front of the governors. Sport is a wonderful thing but this is utter bollocks.
Rugby World Cup this year kids! Get it before it gets banned (though, judging from Iran's keeper today, concussion apparently isn't a thing....)
My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
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Qui tacet consentire videtur. It's some display of power. The suggestion that being there facilitates using the platform to highlight issues is not borne out by the commentators and players that are there. The fact is, participation is an endorsement. If they felt that bad about the Qatari record, associations would not send their teams to the tournament.
I won't be watching.
To be fair the BBC has done a good job on this, they have had Jeremy Bowen and other journalists on the football programmes talking about the relevant issues. I don't blame players not wanting to risk being booked for wearing armbands, it would probably be a futile gesture unless a whole team all did it together, would they really book an entire team?
Posts on Twitter from supporters not let into a game for wearing a rainbow shirt... that's really worrying.
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How hard would be for the crowd to coordinate a rendition of a Tom Robinson classic. 45,000 voices would be not that easy to drowned out.
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I did see that the Iranian players refused to sing the national anthem in support of the anti-gov protests. Brave of them and worthy of respect imo.
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You don’t blame the players Toby? Nor do I. I imagine they would feel very conflicted - making a statement is one thing, getting a card in the biggest tournament is letting team and fans down. It’s down to the football associations to decide what the team does, it’s their responsibility, not the players’.
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You don’t blame the players Toby? Nor do I. I imagine they would feel very conflicted - making a statement is one thing, getting a card in the biggest tournament is letting team and fans down. It’s down to the football associations to decide what the team does, it’s their responsibility, not the players’.
Agreed. It is FIFA's issue, the FA were given little option other than the position they adopted.
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If people generally don’t watch this World Cup due to it being in Qatar they might as well stop watching football all together and add the Olympics and F1 to the list as countries with human rights issues are welcomed with open arms in all of them.
Qatar owns one of the biggest clubs in the world in PSG, Russia and China have staged world cups and olympics in recent years and will do so again. Saudi own my own club and are staging part of the Winter Olympics in 2029.
Add to that the UK and most countries are happy to do business with all of these places.
Climbers are even involved in helping Saudi promote its self and I’m sure we will end up with WC events there at some point.
Qatar is just a stupid place to have the WC but no worse than the ties football f1 and the Olympics already have.
I will be watching and hope the broadcasters keep pointing out the issues and making a big deal of it.
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As it happens I think F1 is a very objectionable sport given the surrounding problems it has.
The Olympics I'll grant you. I do watch it but yes the IOC etc is well sus.
Football in this country being awash with dodgy money is something people hugely object to all the time mind you. Fortunately as SUFC fan I don't need to worry about them playing City soon...
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I'm with gav, hopefully this is the platform to highlight issues in the country I was admittedly unaware of until they were awarded hosting the WC.
That aside, looks like Saudis have pulled one out the bag!
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As it happens I think F1 is a very objectionable sport given the surrounding problems it has.
The Olympics I'll grant you. I do watch it but yes the IOC etc is well sus.
Football in this country being awash with dodgy money is something people hugely object to all the time mind you. Fortunately as SUFC fan I don't need to worry about them playing City soon...
Why do you find F1 more objectionable than footy?
SUFC supporter ! a club with a saudi owner and vice chairman who wanted two british women whipped and beheaded for there crimes.
Not having a go at you ( i support and will continue to support NUFC) just pointing out that it runs through most big sports and not just because its in Qatar. I dont see any protests outside bramall lane.
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If people generally don’t watch this World Cup due to it being in Qatar they might as well stop watching football all together and add the Olympics and F1 to the list as countries with human rights issues are welcomed with open arms in all of them.
But this is exactly one of the things that sucks! We should be able to have major sporting events that aren't so ethically tainted, and we are only gonna get there by actually taking action.
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As it happens I think F1 is a very objectionable sport given the surrounding problems it has.
The Olympics I'll grant you. I do watch it but yes the IOC etc is well sus.
Football in this country being awash with dodgy money is something people hugely object to all the time mind you. Fortunately as SUFC fan I don't need to worry about them playing City soon...
Why do you find F1 more objectionable than footy?
SUFC supporter ! a club with a saudi owner and vice chairman who wanted two british women whipped and beheaded for there crimes.
Not having a go at you ( i support and will continue to support NUFC) just pointing out that it runs through most big sports and not just because its in Qatar. I dont see any protests outside bramall lane.
That comment was more tongue jn cheek! I'll definitely not stan for football, as I said it is deeply awash with dodgy money and yes the Blades are no exception. There aren't protests outside Bramall Lane; maybe there should be. I dunno if I'd say I find either it or F1 more objectionable although F1 is probably inherently more egregiously so as it has a truly diabolical environmental impact and has no real grassroots elements to connect to (unlike football where local communities can and do hugely benefit).
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All major sporting events are linked to ethically tainted owners, sponsors or bodies. Cant think of many, if any, that are not. Boxing, Football, Olympics, F1, Golf, cycling. If its not politically uncomfortable its environmentally. Climbing is also part of it, look how many comps are in China or Russia.
But to make these things so great and why everyone loves them costs a crazy amount of money so who's going to pay. If you do them on a budget they get torn apart by us as being shit, poor camera angles, bad editing, rubbish facilities, long queues etc.
I think the reaction people are making about it being in Qatar is hypocritical if your prepared to turn a blind eye to everything else, which most appear to be doing. I personally think its a joke it is being staged in Qatar on environmental issues alone, never mind the human rights issues, and it should have never have been awarded, but will happily enjoy the games as i suspect most will if England go a long way, and all will be forgiven if we win when it will forever be know in England as the greatest world cup since 1966.
Brush and Carpet
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
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As it happens I think F1 is a very objectionable sport given the surrounding problems it has.
The Olympics I'll grant you. I do watch it but yes the IOC etc is well sus.
Football in this country being awash with dodgy money is something people hugely object to all the time mind you. Fortunately as SUFC fan I don't need to worry about them playing City soon...
Why do you find F1 more objectionable than footy?
SUFC supporter ! a club with a saudi owner and vice chairman who wanted two british women whipped and beheaded for there crimes.
Not having a go at you ( i support and will continue to support NUFC) just pointing out that it runs through most big sports and not just because its in Qatar. I dont see any protests outside bramall lane.
That comment was more tongue jn cheek! I'll definitely not stan for football, as I said it is deeply awash with dodgy money and yes the Blades are no exception. There aren't protests outside Bramall Lane; maybe there should be. I dunno if I'd say I find either it or F1 more objectionable although F1 is probably inherently more egregiously so as it has a truly diabolical environmental impact and has no real grassroots elements to connect to (unlike football where local communities can and do hugely benefit).
I don't think F1 is anywhere near as bad as football but its down to the number of people who travel to games. Think the premiership alone has 14 million people travelling to games each season i guess using more fuel and tyres than they do at Silverstone, so world wide it will be a very high number.
Flights to European matches from UK usually have 4-6k per away match x 6 teams x 4-8 matches. 200k from UK maybe which is about the attendance of an F1 event. Sure you can find the figures but my guess is Football has a much bigger environmental impact than F1.
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we are only gonna get there by actually taking action.
What action should we be taking exactly? And do you think it will make a difference?
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
You don't but a hell of a lot of people do, so your in a minority. If it has a positive effect on many peoples lives we should support it even if we are not interested. It brings a lot of joy to a lot of people where as i suspect it being on doesn't affect your life at all.
If we want to make a point Surely its better to stay in to the end and then make a big statement on the human rights thing once people are listening. The longer your in the more eyes on you.
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
You don't but a hell of a lot of people do, so your in a minority. If it has a positive effect on many peoples lives we should support it even if we are not interested. It brings a lot of joy to a lot of people where as i suspect it being on doesn't affect your life at all.
If we want to make a point Surely its better to stay in to the end and then make a big statement on the human rights thing once people are listening. The longer your in the more eyes on you.
I'm pretty much with you on this gme. I agree with all the criticism and that Qatar is an awful choice to be the host, on many levels. However I'll be watching the England games and am looking forward to the football side of it.
Personally I don't know that Qatar has all that much to gain - their human rights issues are under global scrutiny like never before, they have spent a vast sum of money (£100bn+) on largely useless infrastructure that won't have a function after the tournament, and they only really benefit if they increase tourism afterwards as a result. I doubt lots of people from western countries will now be keen to go to Qatar - many will be more put off than they would have been before.
I am viewing this as watching a football tournament which is being held at Qatar's expense, and more fool them.
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I do wonder what Qatar had hoped to benefit? Increased tourism? No longer being the pariah state of the Middle East?
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I do wonder what Qatar had hoped to benefit? Increased tourism? No longer being the pariah state of the Middle East?
This - I keep wondering why they even wanted it?
If this was a PR exercise it's gone horribly wrong
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
You don't but a hell of a lot of people do, so your in a minority. If it has a positive effect on many peoples lives we should support it even if we are not interested. It brings a lot of joy to a lot of people where as i suspect it being on doesn't affect your life at all.
If we want to make a point Surely its better to stay in to the end and then make a big statement on the human rights thing once people are listening. The longer your in the more eyes on you.
Personally I don't know that Qatar has all that much to gain - their human rights issues are under global scrutiny like never before, they have spent a vast sum of money (£100bn+) on largely useless infrastructure that won't have a function after the tournament, and they only really benefit if they increase tourism afterwards as a result. I doubt lots of people from western countries will now be keen to go to Qatar - many will be more put off than they would have been before.
I agree. I don't really know what they are trying to gain. Historically the middle east used to be pretty private places allowing them to operate without to many eyes looking in but now as they are opening up to the west they are getting heavily scrutinised but for what gain. I may turn out that this event starts the movement for them to be a bit more liberal if they want the west to accept them. not convinced though.
Re the tourist thing i think loads already go to Qatar on holiday as they do Dubai, Saudi and abu dhabi all places with similar human rights issues. Dubai is ranked near the top in world holiday destinations and i suspect Qatar will move up the list after the WC.
Give people nice weather, proper 5* luxury, cheap drinks (you can buy alcohol in Qatar in the hotels) and a level of service you cant get in Europe unless you spend a fortune, and they will ignore the fact there is a public beheading happening round the corner.
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
Out of curiosity, why do you hope that? Assuming it's not to do with human rights or any other Qatar based issues, as how long England stay in the tournament won't make the slightest bit of difference. Is it just because you don't like football? Surely just ignoring it is the way to go?
Are we allowed to talk about football on this thread, or is it only rants about middle East nations with shoddy equality, and rants about how rubbish football is in general?
Personally, I'm going to be enjoying watching the football. I think that any publicity that Qatar get from this is only going to encourage a more Liberal change. But maybe I'm just saying that because I like football. I see the reasons for upset, and I absolutely agree that it shouldn't have been given to Qatar, butvthe host nation is very rarely the lasting memory from these tournaments. Its the football that is remembered.
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You don't but a hell of a lot of people do, so your in a minority. If it has a positive effect on many peoples lives we should support it even if we are not interested
You are missing the point. I would normally just ignore it but changing the school timetable? In an age when you can watch on demand? Get tae fuck.
As for supporting it, I think any time and effort I put in would be much better placed elsewhere. There are plenty of sports that don’t share the same negative crap football attracts, and let’s be honest it isn’t about sport for the majority it’s just entertainment and an excuse to get pissed and be boorish en masse. It’s in the same box as the royalty for me, privileged brats providing entertainment that brings out the brain dead side of nationalism. Kids should be steered well away from it.
The choice of Qatar has just brought all this into clearer focus for many. At this level the game is purely driven by big money, with all the compromises and fuckery that entails. That also tips me from ignore to resist.
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, and let’s be honest it isn’t about sport for the majority it’s just entertainment and an excuse to get pissed and be boorish en masse. It’s in the same box as the royalty for me, privileged brats providing entertainment that brings out the brain dead side of nationalism.
It's very decent of you to let the rest of us know what classes as sport, what classes as entertainment, and judge us for our preference accordingly. Thanks. And I also humbly apologise for drinking beer whilst watching a football match.
And yes, I'm sure the first 18 years of Bukayo Saka's life we're very similar to that of a member of the Royal family. Minus all of the wealth and privilege.
Damn quotes messed up, sorry
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Imagine growing up with parents who wouldn’t let you watch football.
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You don't but a hell of a lot of people do, so your in a minority. If it has a positive effect on many peoples lives we should support it even if we are not interested
You are missing the point. I would normally just ignore it but changing the school timetable? In an age when you can watch on demand? Get tae fuck.
You don't think there's any benefit to kids watching it together at school? It's just one game (England don't have/can't have any other fixtures during school hours), 2 hours out of their day. School is about more than just teaching lessons out of books, these kind of experiences will be very memorable for some kids. For others, no harm done - maybe they chose the other activity on offer, or maybe they'll just think of it as any other school day and it won't have made much of an impression. Either way, it's unlikely to be creating a fresh generation of hooligans, nor will it severely impact the amount of other learning they'll get done this term.
It's important to note that lots of kids are already interested in football and so may be pretty distracted in lessons if the game is going on. Maybe the teachers think that this is the best way for them to get the most out of that time at school - watching and bonding with classmates, rather than sneaking looks at their phones to find the score. (I'm aware this mainly applies to older kids, maybe secondary school and up)
There are plenty of sports that don’t share the same negative crap football attracts, and let’s be honest it isn’t about sport for the majority it’s just entertainment and an excuse to get pissed and be boorish en masse. It’s in the same box as the royalty for me, privileged brats providing entertainment that brings out the brain dead side of nationalism. Kids should be steered well away from it.
I'm not sure if this is you speaking from past experience, or simply ignorance, but this is a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite). Yes there are problems with alcohol/drugs and the behavior that causes. But that is a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority". They obviously cause the headlines, which makes sense, since the headline "99% of crowd attend match and have pleasant, friendly afternoon" doesn't quite hit the same.
If you go to literally any football match, you'll see many other people there simply enjoying the sport.
If you go to a pub/bar to watch a game, you'll see many people with pints in their hands, but enjoying the socialising and the entertainment more than wanting to get rowdy.
I understand and share many of the concerns about Qatar, FIFA, etc, and that football has some issues it needs to fix, but I think you're really missed the mark on this. Football may not be for you, but it's good for a lot of other people.
Source: being a football fan as a child; going to hundreds of league 1 and 2 games with my family, home and away; being a football fan as an adult.
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As for supporting it, I think any time and effort I put in would be much better placed elsewhere. There are plenty of sports that don’t share the same negative crap football attracts, and let’s be honest it isn’t about sport for the majority it’s just entertainment and an excuse to get pissed and be boorish en masse. It’s in the same box as the royalty for me, privileged brats providing entertainment that brings out the brain dead side of nationalism. Kids should be steered well away from it.
I totally disagree. Football wasn't a part of my growing up but is clearly a really good influence on a lot of people. The atmosphere in Sheffield before the England vs Sweden women's game was completely positive. Loads of people go to games as families, and clubs of all sizes are part of their communities. Like it or not, it is our national sport, and the Premier League is one of the UK's most successful exports . I'm not passionate about football, but I don't see the point in doing it down.
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Any how slightly off tangent Ronaldo has left Man U with immediate effect.
He is playing at the WC.
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And yes, I'm sure the first 18 years of Bukayo Saka's life we're very similar to that of a member of the Royal family. Minus all of the wealth and privilege.
You’re quite right, privileged was the wrong word. I should have written overpaid.
The comparison with the royal family was not meant to equate the players with royalty, I meant the way in which a sizeable proportion of the population adore them to the confusion of the rest - a bigger group than fans typically notice given the ease of finding someone else to drone on about the game with.
Like I said, I’m happy to ignore it mostly but this tournament is clearly deeply problematic and putting it on in a primary school where kids are not allowed mobiles I find ridiculous.
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And yes, I'm sure the first 18 years of Bukayo Saka's life we're very similar to that of a member of the Royal family. Minus all of the wealth and privilege.
You’re quite right, privileged was the wrong word. I should have written overpaid.
The comparison with the royal family was not meant to equate the players with royalty, I meant the way in which a sizeable proportion of the population adore them to the confusion of the rest - a bigger group than fans typically notice given the ease of finding someone else to drone on about the game with.
Like I said, I’m happy to ignore it mostly but this tournament is clearly deeply problematic and putting it on in a primary school where kids are not allowed mobiles I find ridiculous.
Is it not just that a sizeable proportion of the pokukation like football and therefore enjoy droning on about it? Is that droning on or is it just talking about something that they enjoy?
I get your point about the gross nature of footballers wages (although there's probably an argument to be had about market forces), but a lot of people don't adore the players in any way(in fact I think a fair bunch of them are pricks). They just enjoy watching an elite level sport that they have played, understand and can relate to.
I must admit I don't really understand your royalty comparison at all. I know people like to give footballers a hard time but make no mistake, nobody gets to play in the top flight of a European league without an astonishing amount of hard work and sacrifice. The ones that make it are well rewarded yes, but that doesn't bare any resemblance to the automatic privilege that royalty receive.
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I do wonder what Qatar had hoped to benefit? Increased tourism? No longer being the pariah state of the Middle East?
This - I keep wondering why they even wanted it?
If this was a PR exercise it's gone horribly wrong
I wonder if the reneging on settled agreements re alcohol and rainbow logos etc. is sword-waving directed to the rest of the Middle East e.g. Saudi Arabia as they have been engaged in pseudo cold war / conflict by proxy for ages. Posturing as a regional hard-man - "look how we can force the West to obey us". That's the only explanation that makes sense to me - showing a willingness to disregard contracts can't be good for attracting business with multinationals.
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My kid's school spent the entire afternoon watching the game, they had the choice apparently of do arts and crafts or watch the game. I'm a bit livid.
Ditto. Hopefully England get knocked out ASAP. I couldn't give less of a fuck.
Ha ha best comment in a while on here! It’s also a bit harsh. As you know I love it.
As already pointed out there are loads of positive aspects to football as well as the bad ones!
Show me a sport that’s perfect…. Climbing could learn a lot from football when it comes to inclusivity! It certainly isn’t only white, privileged middle class kids that enjoy it.
This World Cup shouldn’t ever have been awarded to Qatar but football has so much to give!
In 1988 I went to Wembley with Burnley on a coach with loads of mates and their dads. We still go to the football, I meet people I’ve known for 40yrs for a pint before the game, those same lads and dads, we take our kids to the game, and they love it. It gives them some pride in where they come from and some identity within their communities.
Just because you don’t get it or buy into it doesn’t mean it has no value. And as for school I’d rather they watched the football than did RE lessons. I think a sense of community and some national pride is something that is a positive thing and should be encouraged through our education system.
Oh and lighten up Scrooge…..
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JB you're only a comprehensive school removed from arguing on here for jumpers for goalposts every day of the week.
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Latest match report here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QExk5T02AH0
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I find some of the arguments comparing this World Cup to other sports and even other parts of football a bit ‘whataboutism’. Sure almost every sport has dirty money in it and football as a whole has never dealt with LGBT, racism etc issues well. But what other major sporting event has been built on literal slave labour and thousands of deaths. Not a few, thousands.
(I love football and normally watch loads of the World Cup)
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I agree that player's wages are ludicrous, but at a grassroots level I'm sure that in the UK football has a bigger impact on getting people of all age groups doing some exercise than any other sport.
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Broadcasters seem to be making a special effort to highlight the problems with the host nation. Yesterday, for instance, the BBC made it a significant part of their Match of the Day coverage to debunk the claim that this World Cup is carbon neutral. Mike Berners-Lee described it as the most carbon intensive event outside of a war in human history...
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Sure almost every sport has dirty money in it and football as a whole has never dealt with LGBT, racism etc issues well. But what other major sporting event has been built on literal slave labour and thousands of deaths. Not a few, thousands.
While it isn't OK, you can't really avoid a bit of whataboutism because the circumstances of the world cup don't exist in a vacuum separate from the rest of the world like some utopian snowglobe in the desert.
For a prime bit of whataboutery - much of the infrastructure of the UK is built on the deaths of (literally) hundreds of thousands of dead construction workers and tradespeople. Just one small example, in the1950s asbestos was introduced. Today respiratory disease linked to Asbestos is killing around five thousand mostly men annually, year in year out. 8% of all deaths reported to a coroner in the UK are attributed to an industrial illness.
That's no excuse, one death is one too many. And I agree with you that the WC in Qatar leaves a bad taste. But it's a reality of the world we inhabit. Most people in the world don't work in academia, tech, marketing or journalism.
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I do wonder what Qatar had hoped to benefit? Increased tourism? No longer being the pariah state of the Middle East?
This - I keep wondering why they even wanted it?
If this was a PR exercise it's gone horribly wrong
I wonder if the reneging on settled agreements re alcohol and rainbow logos etc. is sword-waving directed to the rest of the Middle East e.g. Saudi Arabia as they have been engaged in pseudo cold war / conflict by proxy for ages. Posturing as a regional hard-man - "look how we can force the West to obey us". That's the only explanation that makes sense to me - showing a willingness to disregard contracts can't be good for attracting business with multinationals.
I doubt that Qatar gives much of a jot what anyone else thinks, at the moment, they have lots of LNG, which the whole of Europe, including the UK desperately needs at the moment because of the Russia situation. Absolutely no government would risk pissing them off if it might jeopardize gas supplies. I would think that the prestige is their motivation for the world cup, which is one over the Saudis in their eyes, true. They are probably feeling put out that the Qatari team hasn't been terribly impressive to say the least; whereas Saudi Arabia just beat one of the favourites...
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I'm not so naïve that I think that the Qatar world cup exists in a vacuum. There are obvious problems worldwide with labour practices and the UK is a prime example of wealth built on blood.
But to use your asbestos example. It has been banned for many years now (we almost definitely took too long to implement a full ban), but at least it is now no longer used. Similarly, I would hope that the Qatar world cup would hold a spotlight on awful labour practices that should also cease to exist. I think the fact it is all in the name of entertainment is what really stinks.
I also think just saying 'it's a reality of the world we inhabit', make it sound like we should just accept it and get on with our day. That's pretty weak. Protests/boycotts do work, albeit messily and slowly. We should be striving for better.
I take it back! I am naïve! ;D But better that than cynical.
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at the moment, they have lots of LNG, which the whole of Europe, including the UK desperately needs at the moment because of the Russia situation. Absolutely no government would risk pissing them off if it might jeopardize gas supplies.
This is true, but it is also a fortunate situation that they find themselves in at present, which they could have in no way predicted when they made their bid.
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I also think just saying 'it's a reality of the world we inhabit', make it sound like we should just accept it and get on with our day. That's pretty weak.
I don't think it means that at all. Placing things in context is important for understanding them.
We should be striving for better.
Agree, and we think we are.
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JB you're only a comprehensive school removed from arguing on here for jumpers for goalposts every day of the week.
I think you underestimate the level of one-upmanship involved at my school Pete:
The oldest copy of the Laws of the Game in the world currently resides in the School's Moser Library, Salopians having played a prominent part in the meetings held to codify the game in the mid-19th century.
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:lol:
Fair do's. You ARE the original 'jumpers for goalposts'!
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On the actual football front this world cup has started with a right bang. If it continues like it is it could actually be one of the best ones in a long time.
6 goals for England, great Wales v USA match, Argentina lose to Saudi Arabia and now Japan beat Germany and we are only a few days in.
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This is true, but it is also a fortunate situation that they find themselves in at present, which they could have in no way predicted when they made their bid.
The war, perhaps not. But, to be fair 50 years ago, Qatar was one of the poorest countries in the world, now they're the 4th richest in terms of GDP per capita; they went for gas in the 1970s, not just fortune, some good decision making as well.
Nevertheless, I bet they're seething about the success of the Saudis though...
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On the actual football front this world cup has started with a right bang. If it continues like it is it could actually be one of the best ones in a long time.
6 goals for England, great Wales v USA match, Argentina lose to Saudi Arabia and now Japan beat Germany and we are only a few days in.
Agreed, it's good spectator sport so far. France pretty good too.
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Another cracking game tonight. Feel for Canada after they fully dominated the game.
Belgium looked pretty average for a team of superstars.
Davies is some player.
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Canada must be gutted for not putting the penalty away.
Argentina and Germany games were remarkably similar; early pen, goal disallowed, then their "weaker" opponents put in 2 in the second half and then shut them down.
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Canada must be gutted for not putting the penalty away.
Argentina and Germany games were remarkably similar; early pen, goal disallowed, then their "weaker" opponents put in 2 in the second half and then shut them down.
The unusual and unexpected results are pretty interesting, are they a result of tournament timing, warm conditions, or just one of those things?
A R5live commentator made the good point that the Germany result isn't actually surprising, as their international record has been poor for a few years : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_national_football_team_results_(2020%E2%80%93present)
Most of their wins are against very weak opposition, and they don't seem to have had many victories over decent opposition. It's a bit more like what you'd expect out of an England record! Now I've said that though, they'll probably win...
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just one of those things?
Just one of those things. Always upsets in every major tournament, what makes them interesting. Complacency, not enough team training, fatigue from tournament being mid season for a lot of players. You could blame temps, but doesn't really make sense.
As you say, they might iron out issues and still go on to win, but mentally damage may have been done.
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https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/23/denmark-fa-open-to-leaving-fifa-with-other-nations-after-onelove-armband-clash-17813991/
Looks like this may have greater implications for football.
I though Infantio's comments about people being jailed for same sex relationships is like him being bullied for being ginger were pretty shocking.
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This line from the metro article struck me:
"There are 211 countries in FIFA and I understand that the current president has statements of support from 207 countries" said DBU chairman Jesper Moller.
I am pretty sure we among the spineless 207.
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au contraire (apologies for link to rag)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/20521231/denmark-talks-quit-fifa-england-world-cup-row/
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I am not sure the Sun article says anything other than Denmark are (hoping) to hold talks with the 55 UEFA members which includes England.
We never walk the walk.
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just one of those things?
Just one of those things. Always upsets in every major tournament, what makes them interesting. Complacency, not enough team training, fatigue from tournament being mid season for a lot of players. You could blame temps, but doesn't really make sense.
As you say, they might iron out issues and still go on to win, but mentally damage may have been done.
It seems that there are more unusual results in this world cup than previous ones; not just upsets, the big scores too.
Brazil look pretty impressive ...
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It happens. I seem to recall a few top teams not getting through group stages in 2002.
Makes it a lot more interesting.
Richarlison's goal was a belter. Display of supreme confidence in your abilities.
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Crunch time. Predictions?
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I have a good feeling about the France match. I think we'll win 2-1. This looks like such a strong squad that England have.
We'll beat Netherlands 2-0 in the semis
Brazil look like they'll take some beating so I think they'll win the final 2-0
You heard it here first
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We'll beat Netherlands 2-0 in the semis
Netherlands are on the other side of the draw. The winner of England- France will play one of Spain, Morocco, Portugal or Switzerland in the semis.
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We'll beat Netherlands 2-0 in the semis
Netherlands are on the other side of the draw. The winner of England- France will play one of Spain, Morocco, Portugal or Switzerland in the semis.
I think France are beatable, and then any of those 4 in the semis should be an easier game. England have looked great so far and we have such depth in the squad - you could make a second team out of the pool of players which is not much worse than the first team. That counts for a lot in a tournament.
Agree with Ged about an Eng-Bra final, though I (naively?) believe we can go all the way. 3-1 to England 🤞
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Agree with lukey, playmakers on the bench. Hopefully Sterling will be back. Shit thing to happen, but I don't think he (or anyone in his family) will want him to miss the game.
Going to be a belter of a match i think.
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Going to be a belter of a match i think.
England - France is one of those matches that happens too early in the tournament- the semis should be France- England and Brazil- Argentina really. Those are the four strongest sides.
I’m less optimistic about England’s chances but I certainly don’t think that it’s out of the question that we’ll win. Whoever wins will surely go to the final and play one of Argentina or Brazil.
I reckon we’re looking at one of those “plays brilliantly, scores loads of amazing goals but then goes out to stubborn opposition and everyone cries” Brazil sides myself so let’s say Argentina.
Who knows who’ll win the final. Maybe Argentina. They’re due one.
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I don't know... Mbappé is clearly pretty hard to defend against and France have a lot of other decent players as well. That said, England were good in the last game, against a decent side.
It's a shame Japan didn't get further on in the tournament, I think.
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I know maguire gets a lot of stick, but stones and walker are a core part of defense for possibly the best team in Europe at the moment. They'll do a decent job of shackling him I think.
My mistake, for some reason I thought we had the winner of argentine Netherlands. Who would we face in the semis then?
Edit. Just checked. Morocco, Portugal or Switzerland. That seems eminently doable. Portugal always seemed to be a bogey team didn't they, but I'm not sure that matters these days. Not sure how good they look this year either. Ronaldo seems to becoming more of a hindrance than a help.
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Agree with lukey, playmakers on the bench. Hopefully Sterling will be back. Shit thing to happen, but I don't think he (or anyone in his family) will want him to miss the game.
Going to be a belter of a match i think.
I think there's an all but zero chance of Sterling playing. He's still in the UK and even if he was in Qatar he's out of form compared to both Rashford and Foden. I think we'll be unchanged.
Agree with Ged about Mbappe. Stones and Walker are more than capable, plus Maguire could be valuable for defending crosses as France have been putting a lot in. He's also due a bad game!
Even if Japan had beaten Croatia, which they should have done in normal time before taking some of the worst penalties I've ever seen, they would have lost to Brazil anyway.
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France will be a very tough game, but England haven't really been tested yet so it will be interesting to see how we get on. I think with our attacking quality it isn't a write off, but France and Brazil look quite a lot better than every other team in the tournament to me.
I'm hoping we play the same starting 11 but my concern is Southgate bottles it and plays 3 at the back, to double up Walker and Trippier on Mbappe, which leaves us with a thin midfield and an isolated front 3
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Seems the key to penalties in this world Cup is to just bloody whack it hard. So many attempts at fooling the keeper and passing it into the net have been saved so far. The Japanese and the Spanish penalties were dreadful.
As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.
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It's a shame Japan didn't get further on in the tournament, I think.
Yeah I don’t think any neutral was happy with their result. Croatia are like Real Madrid in the sense that no matter how much older, slower and weaker (and less entertaining!) they look than the opposition they can just find a goal from nowhere and capitalise on the destabilising effect it has on a less confident opponent.
I feel like so much of cup football comes down to which teams have this feeling that the narrative is with them, that they’ll just progress like they always do and of course in the international game you can’t buy that experience in so you’ll have the “serial winners” who’ve done it all before in your side for their whole career. That’s why I find it easier to picture France (who made 10 changes against Tunisia) in the semis than England- we’re so much less of a Japan than we used to be but while I can picture us scoring past them and stopping them scoring I can’t really see a situation where we’re on top after 90/ 120 minutes.
Ronaldo seems to becoming more of a hindrance than a help.
:agree: He’s a liability these days really. They’ve started this match without him and it’s not going badly! Obviously Switzerland aren’t the best side out there but the semi looks like less of a formality by the minute… :lol:
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The Spanish penalty shoot-out was a distillation / Platonic ideal of their previous hours' efforts - around a thousand passes, most in the central area of the pitch, and only one shot on target. Morocco, despite having a lot less of the ball, seemed worth at least a draw (pretty much the same xG). Looks like thrashing Costa Rica isn't necessarily a sign of great deeds to come.
I feel a bit sorry for Southgate - if he keeps with 442 and France win, he will be accused of being tactically naive and not mitigating the threat of Mbappe. If we play 343, he will be accused of cowardice and not playing to England's strengths. This from fans / journalists whose assertions about which players England should start imply they think 4-1-4 / 4-2-3 is the formation to use. This despite most successful international teams (except for perhaps Italy at the last Euros) being pretty cagey - lots of easily coached at short notice defensive solidity, and relying on the odd moment of magic to score.
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As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.
Very much not a full strength team (they were already through) and maybe lacking in commitment as well.
This from the Guardian live reporting made me laugh:
'France are currently playing like a tribute act to the normal starting XI. Very much the Friday night at a working men’s club version of Mbappe et al. I am not sure you could charge entry.'
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I reckon England have a great chance against France. I think that they'd have a good chance against Brazil and a very good chance against Argentina too.
IMO when England are on top form they're the best team in the tournament. And even when they aren't they are defensively strong enough to get back in the game. Huge amount of capability in every position, depth on the bench, they have what it takes.
If England don't win I hope Morocco does obvs.
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Morocco, despite having a lot less of the ball, seemed worth at least a draw
Plus some remarkable goalkeeping in the penalties. Big man, moves fast.
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As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.
Very much not a full strength team (they were already through) and maybe lacking in commitment as well.
This from the Guardian live reporting made me laugh:
'France are currently playing like a tribute act to the normal starting XI. Very much the Friday night at a working men’s club version of Mbappe et al. I am not sure you could charge entry.'
Good quote :lol:
True about France not being a full strength team in that game, but I think that's an important point - once you get past their starting 11 the quality really plummets, leaving them not many options for substitutes to make an impact late in the game, or rotation to avoid players becoming injured or fatigued. This is typically key to success in a tournament.
On a separate note, it looks like we are seeing the last of Ronaldo. Portugal looked vastly improved without him. Hats off to the manager for taking the risk of not starting him, glad it paid off.
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Morocco, despite having a lot less of the ball, seemed worth at least a draw
Plus some remarkable goalkeeping in the penalties. Big man, moves fast.
As one of the match reports I read said, it's odd really that they're seen as such underdogs, given that many of their players play with top European teams.
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My thought too, when my son (Statto Jr) started reeling off who they all play for.
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As for France, they lost to Tunisia. So clearly not that superior.
Very much not a full strength team (they were already through) and maybe lacking in commitment as well.
This from the Guardian live reporting made me laugh:
'France are currently playing like a tribute act to the normal starting XI. Very much the Friday night at a working men’s club version of Mbappe et al. I am not sure you could charge entry.'
Good quote :lol:
True about France not being a full strength team in that game, but I think that's an important point - once you get past their starting 11 the quality really plummets, leaving them not many options for substitutes to make an impact late in the game, or rotation to avoid players becoming injured or fatigued. This is typically key to success in a tournament.
And they did bring on the big guns in the second half to no avail
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How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄
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How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄
Yeah I think we're onto "well the plane would've flown to Thailand even if I hadn't bought a ticket" stage.
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yeah we know. As per before, Qatar was never on many people's holiday destinations, but I think issues highlighted during this WC have hopefully dropped it down the list of anyone who had considered it.
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I’m happy to be reminded at any stage personally. Watching the matches hasn’t made me forget anything I’ve learnt about the circumstances of this World Cup over the last 12 years or stopped me following non-football events happening around it since it kicked off though.
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There was an interesting piece on R5 this morning about Qatar "sports washing" where the reporter suggested it isnt sports washing at all as he feels they have not kowtowed to the rest of the world at all and pretty much said fuck you, this is our country, this is what we do and if you dont like it fuck off.
What they have proved is that they are very rich and very good at organising things, with the event, the stadia, infrastructure and service for the event being exceptional. Loads of reports about it being the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes.
Sports washing suggests trying to clean something or hide it and in this case they don't actually appear to be doing that.
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I think “soft power” is a better term for what Qatar are seeking to gain from hosting. It’s in their interests as a small state surrounded by bigger ones that don’t like them to be visible to the world in a favourable light.
In terms of Qatar being a nice place to visit I don’t think that was ever in doubt. It’s a country where the rich have a very nice time and it’s been a popular holiday destination for a certain type of holidaymaker (pro footballers and managers being squarely in that group) for a long time because of that. The problem is that behind the scenes the comfort is enabled pretty much by slavery and it’s very easy and in fact quite difficult to look behind said scenes when you’re there enjoying it.
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What they have proved is that they are very rich and very good at organising things, with the event, the stadia, infrastructure and service for the event being exceptional. Loads of reports about it being the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes.
You'd hope so given that they're reportedly spent $220 billion on it (including supporting infrastructure), which is 5x more than the previous 7 world cups combined.
https://www.dw.com/en/qatar-world-cup-will-be-the-most-expensive-of-all-time/a-63681083
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The money is pretty much irrelevant to them though. Think they made 20- 30 billion extra in last year due to gas price rises so we have all paid for it anyway.
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The money is pretty much irrelevant to them though. Think they made 20- 30 billion extra in last year due to gas price rises so we have all paid for it anyway.
True, money is literally no object to the Qataris. I believe that they are considering a bid to host the Olympics, and they probably have a chance given how many countries just can't afford it now. They probably also want to develop an economy which will survive a post (or very reduced) fossil fuel using world.
Qatar remains a country that I have no interest in visiting, but I've listened to the opinions on engaging with them, or on boycotting them. I think that I now accept that boycotts mostly haven't worked in the past, and that there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar, but watching the next world cup in the US, given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well. (Guns, abortion...). Qatar has come under the spotlight on women's and LGBQT issues and, though there may be no immediate change, it might have a positive influence.
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the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes
Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"
On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.
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(http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/183c659360f05e92c2c61c60fc308290.jpg)
On the contrary - I think climbing could learn a lot from football and the way it generously accommodates a full spectrum of joyfully uninhibited celebration of success.
I now know unequivocally how I’ll be honouring the occasion when Aidan climbs Burden of Dreams…
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the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes
Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"
On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.
Fair enough, happy to take responsibility for that second quote - although I hadn't yet read that post re. pissed up blokes.
I've not been following overly closely what fans have been saying about this world cup experience vs previous ones. However, from what I have seen, the reason for enjoyment of this world cup seems to be a range of factors, including easy public transit, low petty crime rates, etc. But there has been less (violent) trouble than at other world cups, so I'm guess it is making a difference to some people.
On the other hand, the number of violent fans in football, and specifically at world cups, is still a minority. Yes it occurs, and involves a few hundred fans, but hundreds of thousands of fans attend these tournaments. I would argue that if you asked fans at previous tournaments how safe they felt, a lot more would have quoted pickpockets and muggings (ie. not football related issues) as things that made them feel unsafe, compared to those who would cite fan trouble.
I imagine people would still be saying it was their best experience at a world cup, for other reasons, even if there was the usual level of fan trouble.
So yes, less fan trouble is good for everyone. I have no issue with addressing it when it occurs, as it is unacceptable. But don't paint everyone with the same brush - to directly address the original quote: football is never "full of pissed up blokes". They just steal the headlines ;)
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there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar, but watching the next world cup in the US, given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well. (Guns, abortion...).
Wow that’s a pretty hefty false equivalence there Toby!
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How many posts about the football is it ok to have before a reminder about the corruption and death is required; or are we on to the “enjoying the sausage without thinking about what’s in it” stage? 😄
I'm definitely in this camp. I didn't watch a single group stage game, but did find myself checking the scores every evening. Then it got to the knock out stages and I couldn't hack it anymore. I was basically sitting reading bbc live reports as goals etc were coming in and getting all psyched on what was happening. So I just caved and turned it on. I feel dirty but happy.
As for France vs England: Despite being Scottish I would like England to do well, since I like the players and the manager, but I do worry about the pace of of the French attack. Senegal clearly were trying to target Harry Maguire for pace and I suspect the French will do the same but with a world class striker.
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the best experience of a WC many fans have had, especially women who appear to like the fact that its not full of pissed up blokes
Can't believe you've not been pulled up on this, I was told it was:
...a very clumsy take on football in the UK (to be polite)... a small number of football fans, far far away from a "majority"
On the plus side apart from the school debacle it's been easy enough to forget it's happening.
Fair enough, happy to take responsibility for that second quote - although I hadn't yet read that post re. pissed up blokes.
I've not been following overly closely what fans have been saying about this world cup experience vs previous ones. However, from what I have seen, the reason for enjoyment of this world cup seems to be a range of factors, including easy public transit, low petty crime rates, etc. But there has been less (violent) trouble than at other world cups, so I'm guess it is making a difference to some people.
On the other hand, the number of violent fans in football, and specifically at world cups, is still a minority. Yes it occurs, and involves a few hundred fans, but hundreds of thousands of fans attend these tournaments. I would argue that if you asked fans at previous tournaments how safe they felt, a lot more would have quoted pickpockets and muggings (ie. not football related issues) as things that made them feel unsafe, compared to those who would cite fan trouble.
I imagine people would still be saying it was their best experience at a world cup, for other reasons, even if there was the usual level of fan trouble.
So yes, less fan trouble is good for everyone. I have no issue with addressing it when it occurs, as it is unacceptable. But don't paint everyone with the same brush - to directly address the original quote: football is never "full of pissed up blokes". They just steal the headlines ;)
I agree with what you say about fans feeling safer and no booze making it feel friendlier to some. However, watching the games the (not particularly big) stadiums have often been part-full and commentators have frequently mentioned the lack of atmosphere. That's a big issue to fans, though to be fair it's improved as the tournament has gotten to the knockout stages (e.g. the Senegalese fans were great). It's a noticeable contrast to what you'd get in almost any other WC.
The large number of fans with valid tickets who were stuck outside stadiums and missed parts of games due to the app not working would also probably disagree with the claim of it being the best WC experience.
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Think the app issue was one game or a couple and nothing compared to the issues at euro final or champions league mess in Paris.
Not sticking up to Qatar it should never have been there but they have put on a good World Cup to the point I would suggest fifa will be happy to go to one of the other gulf states in a few years.
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Think the app issue was one game or a couple and nothing compared to the issues at euro final or champions league mess in Paris.
Yes very true.
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I think it's pretty hard to argue it hasn't been an organisational and logistical success. Im sure the teams love that they don't have to move hotels all the time too.
Something I have thought which may prove to be a longer term benefit is the decentring of European football which occurs by holding it away from the normal footballing seats of power. I think the effect of pretty clear in the Morocco Spain game, with absolutely massive support for Morocco from the Arab and African fans in a way that simply wouldn't have happened had it been elsewhere. Also visible in the Saudis defeat of Argentina (still can't believe that happened). This provincialisation of European football is desperately needed; eg pundits didn't praise Japan at all after their victory over Spain and instead spent 15 minutes making thinly disguised accusations of a VAR stitch up!
Think the last time the WC functioned as outreach in this way was probably 2002 in South Korea and they now consistently reach the knockout stages, and Japan are handy too. Suspect this may do similarly for (North) African and Middle Eastern teams.
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there is no moral consistency between boycotting Qatar, but watching the next world cup in the US, given the number of their laws that are pretty unpleasant as well. (Guns, abortion...).
Wow that’s a pretty hefty false equivalence there Toby!
You think so? It wasn't that I was saying Qatar's laws are only as bad as the US, as that's obviously not true; in retrospect I apologize that's how it looks. But it seems a bit hypocritical to accept awful legislation in one place but not another, though one may be worse.
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Think the last time the WC functioned as outreach in this way was probably 2002 in South Korea and they now consistently reach the knockout stages, and Japan are handy too.
South Africa 2010? Shame the national team haven't managed to do much recently.
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Not sticking up to Qatar it should never have been there but they have put on a good World Cup to the point I would suggest fifa will be happy to go to one of the other gulf states in a few years.
Saudi Arabia are one of the potential hosts for 2030. FIFA want to start having a World Cup every two years too, to muscle the local confederations out of the continental tournaments. If that comes to pass we’ll probably see it in Qatar again before too long- they’ve got all the stadiums sitting there now after all. FIFA would put a World Cup on the moon if the money was there. They made literally a billion more out of this World Cup than usual due to the savings of having it so close together and previously-untapped Middle Eastern sponsorship.
Something I have thought which may prove to be a longer term benefit is the decentring of European football which occurs by holding it away from the normal footballing seats of power. I think the effect of pretty clear in the Morocco Spain game, with absolutely massive support for Morocco from the Arab and African fans in a way that simply wouldn't have happened had it been elsewhere. Also visible in the Saudis defeat of Argentina (still can't believe that happened). This provincialisation of European football is desperately needed…
Apart from the idea that only Europe dominates international football (you know that South American teams have won 9 of the 21 World Cups right? ;) ) I agree with this. Neutrals want variety and upsets.
USA 94 was the first World Cup to be hosted in a region that had never produced a winner and there was uproar at the time but it produced a more open-feeling tournament much like this one and Africa and Japan/ South Korea were similar. I don’t think “routine” is exactly the right term for South Korea’s relationship with the knockouts but it’s interesting to look at when they have got through- the three hosted by nations outside the two traditional centres of power.
Infantino’s response to criticism of the location of the World Cup has been to emphasise how part of it (and indeed FIFA’s) purpose is that it grows the game around the world and brings different nations together etc. and while he’s deliberately missing the point of the concerns (and misrepresenting his interest in broadening the global appeal- his biggest concern is keeping the minor federations sweet as they’re the key to him being re-elected unopposed) it’s true.
Duncan says much higher up this thread that people object to a country without a decent side hosting but I don’t have a problem with that personally. Qatar are the first hosts ever to not surf through to the knockouts on a wave of local support but I can’t see that as wrong. There are lots of positive reasons to have the World Cup in the Middle East (or similar non-footbally areas) in theory. It’s the practical aspects of this one that are problematic, but obviously not the practical aspects that some are concentrating on. Obviously any super rich country won’t have a problem putting the matches on!
What lots of people seem to be missing is that compared to every other modern World Cup, there aren’t many fans of any nation there. It’s the ratios of fans and the inclinations of local neutrals that are different.
It’s really expensive and logistically complicated to go. It’s possibly better than any World Cup ever for those lucky enough to have hotels in Doha (there are still tickets available for every game and they’re all a tube journey away so if your pockets are deep enough you can go and see basically every match like a live version of watching them all on the telly) and certainly great for ex-pats working in the region but there aren’t anything like the number of hotel rooms needed to house all the fans so many have been faced with staying in other countries and flying in/ out on the day of the game. Obviously going to any World Cup is complicated but the number of fans who’ve been able to treat this in a “let’s pile down to Font in x’s van and figure it out on the way” is basically zero. FIFA don’t give a fuck about that though.
pundits didn't praise Japan at all after their victory over Spain and instead spent 15 minutes making thinly disguised accusations of a VAR stitch up!
I wouldn’t read too much into this, refereeing controversies routinely obliterate any other post-game discussion at club level too. It’s funny that before its introduction VAR was seen as something that would sort out controversial decisions once and for all “all we’re saying is give them the help they need” :lol: .
Im sure the teams love that they don't have to move hotels all the time too.
Not sure how much that softens the blow of having literally no recovery time before the restart of the domestic seasons. Chelsea and Man City play each other in the League Cup four days after the final. Most of their first teams are still in Qatar. Not sure Chelsea would have been expecting Ziyech to still be there!
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Yes, I should have said Europe/South American focus really, but even then European teams have won the last 4, and only Brazil of SAmerican teams have won it since '86. Hard to argue we aren't in a Europe-dominated period; until Brazil win this years final of course!
Re the recovery time and holding the WC in the middle of the European season, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single other world cup held in the middle of eg. the south american football season? If thats true and I think it is, I can't get too upset about this one being in the middle of a European season for once! If anything it might serve to level the playing field a bit given the dominance of European sides in the last 20 years.
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Plus the frequency of the matches at this stage is not that much more than busy periods in the domestic leagues.
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correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single other world cup held in the middle of eg. the south american football season? If thats true and I think it is, I can't get too upset about this one being in the middle of a European season for once! If anything it might serve to level the playing field a bit given the dominance of European sides in the last 20 years.
Yeah it’s a good point and it’s broadly true (football scheduling is less homogenous and much more of a moveable feast in South America, partly because national sides are seen as more important than clubs) but it’s a long time since the majority of the major South American nations players played for clubs in their home countries. Obviously that adds weight to the Eurocentric side of the debate :lol:
I’m all for these kind of advantages being distributed evenly, I’m just saying any democratisation of sporting advantage, fan experience and player welfare at this World Cup is basically a happy accident.
Plus the frequency of the matches at this stage is not that much more than busy periods in the domestic leagues.
Only the English one. Every other European league has a winter break. The bigger issue is there’s no recovery period after the tournament. Usually it’s holiday time straight after and you can still see which players had a big World Cup at the start of the next season. Here’s an ex-pro’s insight. (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2022/oct/20/world-cup-months-to-recover-shape-season?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other)
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Duncan says much higher up this thread that people object to a country without a decent side hosting but I don’t have a problem with that personally. Qatar are the first hosts ever to not surf through to the knockouts on a wave of local support but I can’t see that as wrong.
South Africa?
Not sure how much that softens the blow of having literally no recovery time before the restart of the domestic seasons. Chelsea and Man City play each other in the League Cup four days after the final. Most of their first teams are still in Qatar. Not sure Chelsea would have been expecting Ziyech to still be there!
All of the top clubs have been managing the workload of their players all season with the world cup in mind. The level of professionalism and attention to detail in the top clubs these days is staggering.
Morocco doing well will have shocked Chelsea far less than it has shocked the average punter/pundit. Morocco are a much better side than they have been in the past. Chelsea will have factored in a reasonable probability of Morocco having made it this far.
It'll be interesting to see some analysis on the incidence of workload related injuries during this world cup and the rest of the season.
It'll also be interesting to see how the teams with few world cup players perform for the rest of the season.
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any democratisation of sporting advantage, fan experience and player welfare at this World Cup is basically a happy accident.
Yeah totally agree. Clearly that wasn't the main motivating factor behind sending the tournament to Qatar! :devangel:
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South Africa?
:lol: Looking at what actually happened it seems I’ve exaggerated the memory of them finishing third and not losing all their matches… I guess what I meant was that Qatar are the first hosts to really stink the place out and seemingly not even enthuse their home fans.
It'll also be interesting to see how the teams with few world cup players perform for the rest of the season.
Yeah absolutely. Before it kicked off I looked at which teams had the least. The barrage of WC fixtures has made me forget all about top-flight domestic football but I think it was something like Leeds, Wolves, Saints and possibly Palace, with some other lower-placed teams in the “you fear for them” category. :popcorn:
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SA are not utter slouches though, and have at least got to the group stages twice before on merit (and have performed well in the ACoN) prior to the current "West" African dominance, whereas it will be interesting to see in the future if Qatar now get anywhere in major tournaments.
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Qatar won the Asian Cup in 2019 (beating South Korea, Saudi Arabia and Japan on the way) and got to the semis of the Gold Cup (which they were weirdly allowed to compete in as a warm-up for this tournament- they only lost to eventual winners USA and had the top scorer) last year, so already have major tournament pedigree believe it or not.
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To quote Wayne "I was not aware of that".
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I reckon we’re looking at one of those “plays brilliantly, scores loads of amazing goals but then goes out to stubborn opposition and everyone cries” Brazil sides myself so let’s say Argentina.
Jesus Christ cheque can you tell us the lottery numbers as well?!??
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until Brazil win this years final of course!
:lol: :tumble: :tumble: :tumble:
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Didn’t see that coming. They played well too. 21 shot,11 on target to Croatias 1.
Dutch win now would make my night.
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Yeah, absolute daylight robbery by the Croats really , but then again, getting caught on the break when you're 1 nil up in a quarter final, with 5 to go in extra time...
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Game management by both South American sides today has been amazingly poor. Argentina were keeping the ball off the Netherlands so well, particularly down the right hand side, for most of the match but then spent the last ten minutes giving it away.
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What a night of footy.
Best game so far that one.
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I reckon we’re looking at one of those “plays brilliantly, scores loads of amazing goals but then goes out to stubborn opposition and everyone cries” Brazil sides myself so let’s say Argentina.
Jesus Christ cheque can you tell us the lottery numbers as well?!??
:lol: Cheque is obviously an undercover pundit.
How many of the Argentinian players are now on yellow cards though?
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Yellow cards written off after tonight.
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Is anyone else fed up with the way the commentators, pundits and media in general are just fawning over the ageing stars (Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar) rather than focusing on the upcoming talent? It sounded like the commentator was going to climax every time Messi got rhe ball last night. Yes he set up a goal and scored a pen, but not much else. Ronaldo is headline news when he doesn't start. Why not focus on the emerging talent?
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Yellow cards written off after tonight.
Is that definitely true? I had thought he same, but on last night's coverage the TV graphic flashed up as "missed next game" when someone got booked, and on the BBC sport preview of the England match it mentions 2 French players who would miss the semi if they got booked.
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Aye - there is a sense of "the Oscar for Lifetime achievement goes to..." about the coverage at times. Messi plays a 5 yard pass sideways and the commentators are in ecstasy. He has admittedly made incredibly important contributions (last time I looked he had more xG + xA than anyone), but there is no need to pretend that he doesn't spend most of each game mooching around and hoping the opposition forget he's there.
Kevin de Bruyne commented on it during one of the group matches - he was surprised by an undeserved MoTM award and it was evidently just for a name recognition rather than achievement award.
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Players can miss the semi if they were booked in last 16 and QF, but if they were booked in QF and then again in SF they won't miss the final.
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Is anyone else fed up with the way the commentators, pundits and media in general are just fawning over the ageing stars
Britain’s meant to be a country that loves the underdog and I can’t help but think that part of that is because we have to listen to football commentators wanking themselves dry about the overdogs regardless of what’s actually happening.
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Is anyone else fed up with the way the commentators, pundits and media in general are just fawning over the ageing stars
Britain’s meant to be a country that loves the underdog and I can’t help but think that part of that is because we have to listen to football commentators wanking themselves dry about the overdogs regardless of what’s actually happening.
Speaking of, a world first tonight for Morocco!
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Is anyone else fed up with the way the commentators, pundits and media in general are just fawning over the ageing stars
Britain’s meant to be a country that loves the underdog and I can’t help but think that part of that is because we have to listen to football commentators wanking themselves dry about the overdogs regardless of what’s actually happening.
Speaking of, a world first tonight for Morocco!
Yes, brilliant for them. A historic moment for African football. And within 10 minutes of the final whistle, the commentator on the radio had three times mentioned how he wasn't going to talk about Ronaldo because its not about him. Thus making it about him.
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Poor Harry. That'll haunt him forever.
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Poor Harry. That'll haunt him forever.
This is another of the many things I do not understand about football. About 24% of penalties taken at the highest level does not result in a goal. It should not be that big of a deal to miss a penalty if it happens one times out of four?
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This is such a “why try and climb up the cliff when there’s an easy way round the back?” question but the answer is that It’s more about the context than the statistical probability. Even if it was, Kane only fails to score about 16% of his penalties so it’s more remarkable in this case than most.
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They threw up one of those info-graphics on screen last night that showed Kane's preference for right-hand side of the goal. Lloris will have known this being club mates which is why I presume the GK went left on the first penalty (goalie trying to double bluff him maybe :shrug:).
Perhaps Kane knew he had to do something really different (pretty sure the info-graphic showed none down the middle) and that added pressure got to him.
Add in he was chasing Rooney's record...
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Poor Harry. That'll haunt him forever.
This is another of the many things I do not understand about football. About 24% of penalties taken at the highest level does not result in a goal. It should not be that big of a deal to miss a penalty if it happens one times out of four?
I think you're right in that you no not understand.
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This is such a “why try and climb up the cliff when there’s an easy way round the back?” question ...
Fair enough, I suspected as much.
So to sum up: sometimes you miss penalties, but if you do in a high-stakes situation it is because you have moral deficits? (I am pretty sure that shame is the result of transgressing moral norms)
{I should probably stop trolling. Sorry. I am bored}
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Does your 25% stat include shootouts? It seems very low if that's in normal time. Someone like kane woukd be fully expected to score that, but at the same time everyone recognises that the bigger the stakes, the more likely he is to miss. That's one of the reasons people are interested in it I guess.
And the stakes didn't come much bigger than last night. Near the end of the game, your team is on the ascendency and woukd have a high chance of going on to win, relatively easy opposition in the next round, potential for first World Cup final in 60 years. You've already scored one in that game, so do you put it in the same place or go the other side. Add in the fact that the keeper facing you is usually your team mate and you train together all the time.
All you've got to do is boot it into the net. Easy eh? If he'd done what he does 95% of the time, you're a national hero forever. If you don't your team fails again. I can see why that will haunt him.
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Does your 25% stat include shootouts? It seems very low if that's in normal time.
In shootouts there are slightly better scores than during match time. Around 77% success on the first 5 shots, then significantly worse after (duh...). (Fun fact: The german player Max Kruse has taken 33 penalties and scored on 32 of them in his entire career. I think that is mostly down to luck. And being left-footed.)
I still suspect penalties are better understood as a Nash equilibrium in mixed strategies than as a form or morality play. (I read this paper: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/00028280260344678 a long time ago and have not kept up with recent developments, but I was pretty convinced at the time).
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Yes, brilliant for them. A historic moment for African football.
And no opposition player has got a goal past them in the tournament yet.
Be great if they get further, but going to be tough.
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Apparently Mr. Kane has scored on 58 out of 69 penalties taken, making him clearly better than the average professional attacking player at this skill, so the chance of missing one or both penalties is approximately 1 – (58/69)^2 = 29%*. That's surely in the "shit happens" category? I would certainly not start up on a long route if I judged that there was a 30% chance of getting hit by a thunderstorm.
* Assuming that the events are independent.
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Yes, brilliant for them. A historic moment for African football.
And no opposition player has got a goal past them in the tournament yet.
Whereas France have conceded at least one goal in every match (according to resident Statto).
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Kane was clearly the best bet for that penalty, he's more experienced than most of the rest of the team, he's almost England's most prolific goal scorer ever, and has probably taken more before. He and Southgate should obviously stay at the head of the England team.
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Apparently Mr. Kane has scored on 58 out of 69 penalties taken, making him clearly better than the average professional attacking player at this skill, so the chance of missing one or both penalties is approximately 1 – (58/69)^2 = 29%*. That's surely in the "shit happens" category? I would certainly not start up on a long route if I judged that there was a 30% chance of getting hit by a thunderstorm.
* Assuming that the events are independent.
The difference being you can decide to not set off up the route, but you kind of have to take the penalty. Or you'd certainly be foolish to not bother.
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Plus, it was his second in the same match - and against a goalkeeper who he plays club football with, so you'd expect knows his / his "tells" better than most.
I can't imagine the pressure of the first one, let alone the second one. I mean what do you do - send it the same side as the first one, go the other way, belt it down the middle, panenka?
There's a good BBC doc at the moment called something like "How To Win The World Cup" where a lot of the people interviewed say that as well as being good etc, you also need everything to go your way. I think the sad fact was that on Saturday a lot of things didn't go our way.
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belt it down the middle
I always surprised how few penalties seem to be a smash straight down the middle. The keeper is almost always going to dive one way or the other. Surely this is a 'relatively' safe bet, unless you always do it, in which case the keeper will know that's your thing.
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I think Croatians put 2 down the middle?
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I think Croatians put 2 down the middle?
Haha, and look how they are getting on. Science! ;D
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Sure I heard / read something that said that statistically, the keep is more likely going to dive one way or the other because they want to "make a save", so smashing it down the middle is the best thing to do.
The only thing that puts players off doing it is the potential humiliation / fallout if you do that and the keeper doesn't dive.
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Kane was clearly the best bet for that penalty, he's more experienced than most of the rest of the team, he's almost England's most prolific goal scorer ever, and has probably taken more before. He and Southgate should obviously stay at the head of the England team.
The Real Science of Sport Podcast did an episode on penalties recently. Apparently experience is negatively correlated with success on high pressure penalties and the success rate of top players goes down as they progress through their careers.
The hypothesis was that there is less expectation with the younger players so they feel less pressure.
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Plus, it was his second in the same match - and against a goalkeeper who he plays club football with, so you'd expect knows his / his "tells" better than most.
I can't imagine the pressure of the first one, let alone the second one. I mean what do you do - send it the same side as the first one, go the other way, belt it down the middle, panenka?
Both the taker and the goalkeeper will have already decided before the match where they are going to go for a first, second and third penalty.
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Kane was clearly the best bet for that penalty, he's more experienced than most of the rest of the team, he's almost England's most prolific goal scorer ever, and has probably taken more before. He and Southgate should obviously stay at the head of the England team.
The Real Science of Sport Podcast did an episode on penalties recently. Apparently experience is negatively correlated with success on high pressure penalties and the success rate of top players goes down as they progress through their careers.
The hypothesis was that there is less expectation with the younger players so they feel less pressure.
It was the younguns that missed in the Euros final though, so who knows.
At least Kane put his foot through it, better than a weak side foot. It had conviction at least!
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I can't remember a more entertaining period of English sport. The football (men's and womans) and the cricket in particular are an order of magnitude better than the turgid meekness of the past. Caring about winning or losing is so passe ::)
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I can't remember a more entertaining period of English sport. The football (men's and womans) and the cricket in particular are an order of magnitude better than the turgid meekness of the past. Caring about winning or losing is so passe ::)
British cyclists are pretty good too!
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Kane was clearly the best bet for that penalty, he's more experienced than most of the rest of the team, he's almost England's most prolific goal scorer ever, and has probably taken more before. He and Southgate should obviously stay at the head of the England team.
The Real Science of Sport Podcast did an episode on penalties recently. Apparently experience is negatively correlated with success on high pressure penalties and the success rate of top players goes down as they progress through their careers.
The hypothesis was that there is less expectation with the younger players so they feel less pressure.
Interesting. Or that they have had fewer opportunities to miss yet?
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Kane was clearly the best bet for that penalty, he's more experienced than most of the rest of the team, he's almost England's most prolific goal scorer ever, and has probably taken more before. He and Southgate should obviously stay at the head of the England team.
The Real Science of Sport Podcast did an episode on penalties recently. Apparently experience is negatively correlated with success on high pressure penalties and the success rate of top players goes down as they progress through their careers.
The hypothesis was that there is less expectation with the younger players so they feel less pressure.
Interesting. Or that they have had fewer opportunities to miss yet?
I wonder if it has something to do with regression to the mean (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean). If you took a group of young football players and got them taking penalties for their teams the ones that were above expected average (by chance) would get to keep taking them. Whereas the ones that missed more (by chance) would be stopped. Over time through their careers however the ones that were more successful at first will tend towards their average. Whereas the initially unsuccessful players don’t get the chance to improve.
Caveat: this obviously removes all other factors, such as training, age, stress, experience etc but it’s interesting how often regression to mean crops up.
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Plus, it was his second in the same match - and against a goalkeeper who he plays club football with, so you'd expect knows his / his "tells" better than most.
I can't imagine the pressure of the first one, let alone the second one. I mean what do you do - send it the same side as the first one, go the other way, belt it down the middle, panenka?
Both the taker and the goalkeeper will have already decided before the match where they are going to go for a first, second and third penalty.
Really? Loads of takers these days clearly play the game on the run up, do the whole stutter and jump thing, to see which way the keeper will go, and then put it the other way. Equally, surely keepers try and read rhe run up and dive accordingly (it's pretty obvious when a right footed player opens their body up to send it to their right)
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Kane isn't one of those players though. He picks a spot, and smashes it in that direction. I suppose if you're talking about someone like Jorginho, who definitely seems to try to get the keeper to blink first. Maybe that means Jorginho won't balloon it over the bar, but it also means Kane won't softly pass the ball into the keeper's waiting arms!*
Even with those players like Jorginho though, I do wonder if they still have a side chosen already. After all, if the keeper has learned your run up and anticipates the stutter (they definitely will in the top games) then if the keeper holds off, you have to choose. Maybe the process is "left, unless the keeper's already gone that way" :shrug:
*I've just remembered Jorginho has ballooned one over the bar: last min against Switzerland, in a Qatar qualifier. Interestingly he did a more conventional run up that time. I don't know what this proves, but there it is! ;D
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Didn't he also do a conventional run up against England in the euros final and pickford saved it?
I can't even remember what we were arguing about to be honest!
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And the stakes didn't come much bigger than last night. Near the end of the game, your team is on the ascendency and woukd have a high chance of going on to win, relatively easy opposition in the next round, potential for first World Cup final in 60 years.
Sorry to pick this up out of context, but I've heard the pundits saying this too and I don't get it.
England beat Iran, Wales & Senegal then failed against the first top flight team they played. I don't see why everyone thought they had an easy path to the final past Morocco who've beaten Belgium, Spain & Portugal?! Yes if you looked at history you'd back England against Morocco, but in terms of form Morocco don't look like an easy win to me for any team in the competition.
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You're absolutely right. I've fallen into the same trap as everyone. They are clearly going to be very hard to beat
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Plus, it was his second in the same match - and against a goalkeeper who he plays club football with, so you'd expect knows his / his "tells" better than most.
I can't imagine the pressure of the first one, let alone the second one. I mean what do you do - send it the same side as the first one, go the other way, belt it down the middle, panenka?
Both the taker and the goalkeeper will have already decided before the match where they are going to go for a first, second and third penalty.
Really? Loads of takers these days clearly play the game on the run up, do the whole stutter and jump thing, to see which way the keeper will go, and then put it the other way. Equally, surely keepers try and read rhe run up and dive accordingly (it's pretty obvious when a right footed player opens their body up to send it to their right)
A few players can do that. Not many though, and Kane isn't one of them. He picks his spot in advance, and he usually hits it sufficiently hard and sufficiently close to the corner that the keeper needs to move early to have a chance of saving it. If you watch penalties where he goes right, his body position is usually very similar until right at the last moment, where his foot opens up. He doesn't usually open up his body in the exaggerated way that a weaker player does.
Against a weaker player who has to open up their body much more, or who hits a penalty slower or further from the corner, the keeper can afford to wait for a tell and then try to react to it. When Kane gets it right, the ball is already past the keeper before they have had a chance to react and dive so their best option is to pre-select where they think the ball is going. If they go for reacting, the ball will already be beyond them by the time they react unless he executes it poorly.
For examples, look at the penalties he scored against Everton, Bayern Munich, Manchester United and Frankfurt. In each one, the keeper picked the perfect spot, started his dive before Kane struck the ball, and he still couldn't get there in time.
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I agree with everything you say there about Harry kane. But your post was saying that all players and keepers will have decided what they're going to do before the match. And in a lot of cases these days I don't think that's true. Jorginho isn't unusual these days in his approach. Look at some regulars in the Premier league. Fernandes, Salah, all try and play the keeper.
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If I was asked to give an example of a player who just blasts pens into an unreachable spot and doesn’t think about the keeper at all I’d say Kane. Maybe having the guy he (presumably) practices them against all the time (as well as all the other obvious pressures) in there made him think about the keeper more? I always feel like Kane’s strength in general is that he doesn’t think too much and gets on with it but everyone has a limit I suppose.
I guess penalties are like hard moves- you never drop them when they’re the first move of a boulder problem but it’s a different story when they’re at the top of the last repoint opportunity of your holiday… :???:
I really enjoy watching England these days. For so many years it was turgid stalemates, never going more than one goal ahead no matter who the opposition was, giving it away at non-dangerous but momentum-destroying points, midfielders panicking and skying it over the bar when they got into the final third, somehow making it to extra time and penalties even though it was obvious we were the worse side, Gerrard making that face that looks like he can smell dog shit, that brass band parping away in the distance… we’re not quite lifting the trophies now but fucking hell it’s so exciting to watch in comparison. The last couple of games we’ve had this cool technique of breaking inside from the wing seemingly via being challenged, Saka getting huge amounts of joy on the right, all amazing to watch. The France tie was just one of those when both teams play well but one is that bit better at taking their chances, I love matches like that even when it’s not my team that’s the winner.
Anyone fancy sticking their necks out with semi predictions :worms:? Obviously Morocco as champions is the result all neutrals want and they look absolutely impenetrable but I reckon they’ll lose if they go behind against France. I’m also going to stick with my Argentina-as-winners prediction. Not sure I can concoct a plausible-sounding reason for that but it’s what the narrative demands and I really can’t be arsed with Croatia any more.
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Who I'd like to win in order 1) Morocco 2) Croatia 3) Argentina 4) France
How i think it will finish in order 1) Argentina 2) France 3) Morocco 4) Croatia
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I really don't want Croatia to win. Boring football played by an average team for me, how they got past Brazil I'll never know.
Morocco would be my preference but I think France will batter them. An Argentina-France final, and I think Argentina might edge it.
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how they got past Brazil I'll never know.
Penalties obviously. As much as we've talked about over the last 2 pages, it's no fairer than teams rolling a 4 sided pyramid dice against each other, and hoping it doesn't come up a match.
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I agree with everything you say there about Harry kane. But your post was saying that all players and keepers will have decided what they're going to do before the match. And in a lot of cases these days I don't think that's true. Jorginho isn't unusual these days in his approach. Look at some regulars in the Premier league. Fernandes, Salah, all try and play the keeper.
I was referring specifically to the keeper
and taker in that match rather than all keepers/takers in any match. I should have used clearer wording.
Salah's an interesting one. He's taken a few where he tries to wait for the keeper, but most of his are just head down and try to break the net with little thought about placement.
He's a great player, but a mediocre penalty taker. Albeit, one with a great success rate. Too many are too close to the keeper, so that they should be saved if the keeper guesses the right way, and the ones down the middle are often too low to clear a trailing leg.
He's a great example of how long you can maintain a winning/losing streak against the odds. That, or he's a genius operating on some totally different level.
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He's [...] a mediocre penalty taker. Albeit, one with a great success rate.
At some point, these things are not compatible. I don't know the person but if this is success rate after 5 penalties maybe it's luck, if it's after 100 then the power of stats suggests he's actually quite good...
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I really don't want Croatia to win. Boring football played by an average team for me, how they got past Brazil I'll never know.
Morocco would be my preference but I think France will batter them. An Argentina-France final, and I think Argentina might edge it.
Now its purely down to being entertained for me i would like to see France win as i think they play the nicest football out the the remaining 4.
Would be good to see Morocco win they are not great to watch and i think the aggro Argies would best them in the final and whilst Messi and co can play some amazing footy there behavior in the Holland match was not in the spirt of the rest of the WC so they dont deserve to win.
France v Arg final with France winning by 2-1 would be great.
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the aggro Argies ...there behavior in the Holland match was not in the spirt of the rest of the WC so they dont deserve to win.
I found this a really interesting debate after the game. Given that a Dutch player was walking with every Argentine penalty taker on their way to the spot and trying to put them off I thought the reaction was pretty understandable. Also, a lot of teams do it...https://twitter.com/Dewos__/status/1602068110860754944
The general vibe between both players in the actual match was dirty I agree. So many yellows, can't believe there wasn't a red.
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The Dutch were guilty as well but it had gotten bad well before the penalties.
I just think the whole tournament has been played in a manner that we unfortunately dont often see at football and this game reverted to type, which is a shame. Hence why Argentina wont be getting my support.
France have been better as well.
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He's [...] a mediocre penalty taker. Albeit, one with a great success rate.
At some point, these things are not compatible. I don't know the person but if this is success rate after 5 penalties maybe it's luck, if it's after 100 then the power of stats suggests he's actually quite good...
I think his record is 30 scored from 35 (I actually thought it was better than this) and the average conversion rate is 78% in open play or 64% in shootouts so the odds are in favour of him being better than your average penalty taker but there's still a reasonable chance that he might be average or below average.
He isn't a terrible penalty taker. He takes too many good penalties for that but he takes far too many poorly placed penalties in a goalkeeper independent style to be particularly good.
Keepers effectively do one of 3 things: dive low left, dive low right or stay in the centre. By hitting penalties relatively centrally, and/or hitting them at the perfect height for a keeper to save, Salah often gives the keeper a good chance of saving it if they choose 2 out of the 3 possibilities.
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I really don't want Croatia to win. Boring football played by an average team for me, how they got past Brazil I'll never know.
Morocco would be my preference but I think France will batter them. An Argentina-France final, and I think Argentina might edge it.
Now its purely down to being entertained for me i would like to see France win as i think they play the nicest football out the the remaining 4.
Would be good to see Morocco win they are not great to watch and i think the aggro Argies would best them in the final and whilst Messi and co can play some amazing footy there behavior in the Holland match was not in the spirt of the rest of the WC so they dont deserve to win.
France v Arg final with France winning by 2-1 would be great.
I agree, allez Les Bleus!
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That was some match. Non stop for the full 90. Thought Morocco were going to score until the last 10 after the 2nd France goal.
Proper entertainment.
France for the cup as they still look like they have another gear to use yet.
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Convinced Morocco were going to equalise right up until second France goal, a few squandered opportunities and some bad luck.
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Proof if it were needed that Morocco were massively deserving semi-finalists.
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Yeah, Morocco looked great. Just missing a bit of luck/ clinical finishing. I thought the game was quite similar to the France England game actually; in both France were pretty ruthless in front of goal and their opponents slightly wasteful/the ball just didn't fall for them.
Based on the going over Theo Hernandez has had at the hands of both Saka and Hakimi I think his contest with Messi could be massive in the final. Suspect France may start Thuram to help him out a bit.
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Was it me, or did they seem overly keen to mark Mbappe (sometimes 2 defenders on him) leaving other players unmarked?
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Was it me, or did they seem overly keen to mark Mbappe (sometimes 2 defenders on him) leaving other players unmarked?
Think they will have seen what England did, which was basically that (Walker and Saka on him at all times), which worked really well to shackle Mbappe, but left other players free; Griezman and Tchouameni in particular.
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Was it me, or did they seem overly keen to mark Mbappe (sometimes 2 defenders on him) leaving other players unmarked?
You have to do it though - we've so far seen teams both double up and not double up on him. Neither seems to work. Unless you have an incredible full back that can handle Mbappe alone (and I'm not convinced there has been one all tournament), you have to have someone else help out. Which will necessarily create more space inside for Griezmann to run riot.
The only way to beat France would appear to be outscoring them by being brutally clinical at every chance you get (neither England nor Morocco were this), or by playing something like 5-5-0 and holding on for penalties. France have shown themselves to be far from impenetrable defensively, but their attack seems very very hard to handle.
Given Argentina will still want to attack, I imagine the final could be a thriller! Fingers crossed for plenty of goals
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I've seen it many times, but still impressed by how ridiculously quick he is.
Hopefully a belter of a final.
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Well that didn't disappoint. What a game.
I was also thinking again about the sport washing aspect and the legacy of this tournament. I still don't think Qatar have gained much other than the world's attention on their human rights abuses and a lot of money wasted on unnecessary stadia. Are there good examples where sport washing has 'worked'? It's not like the 2018 world cup in Russia has improved their international reputation is it?
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Well that was incredible. One of the best games i have ever seen and in terms of entertainment i cant think of one better.
I often think finals of knock out events can end up being disappointing and don't live up to expectation but this one delivered in spades to the point where if you had written it it would have been told to reign it in a bit.
Thought France were terrible for most of the game and was starting to loose interest in it with 15 to go as it seemed a forgone conclusion but how that changed.
Unfortunately for the opponents of it being in Qatar (i include myself among them) that was the best world cup i have ever watched and i suspect FIFA will already be taking to other similar countries. If i was someone who believed in conspiracy theories this one would be at the top of them. Messi winning with Argentina becoming the GOAT, playing against France with Mbappe getting a hattrick, 1st and 2nd in golden boot, both players employed by a club that Qatar owns. Must be a fix.
Sports washing at its finest.
One thing that really did piss me off though is presidents/prime ministers or celebrities/ex players going on the pitch at the end, that can fuck right off. Imagine having just lost the final and having Sunak/Macron/ insert any politician you wish, coming up to hug and console you. I think i would deck them.
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Unfortunately for the opponents of it being in Qatar (i include myself among them) that was the best world cup i have ever watched and i suspect FIFA will already be taking to other similar countries.
Would the football not have been as good elsewhere though? All other considerations aside, I'd have said the football was highly entertaining, regardless of the fact it was held in Qatar.
One thing that really did piss me off though is presidents/prime ministers or celebrities/ex players going on the pitch at the end, that can fuck right off. Imagine having just lost the final and having Sunak/Macron/ insert any politician you wish, coming up to hug and console you. I think i would deck them.
Agreed. I have no idea about Macron and Mbappe's relationship but Mbappe didn't seem overly happy about being talked to like that at the end. Sunak would be the last person I'd want to see in that situation!
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I believe Macron was quite influential in persuading Mbappe to stay at PSG instead of going to Madrid. They clearly know each other at least.
I have a foot in both camps here. On one hand I think the world cup is stained, as Keane said on ITV the other day. It always will be. On the other I think the way holding it in the Arab world rather than Australia where it would likely have ended up otherwise, made it much more of a global spectacle with loads more fans from Africa, Arab nations and SAmerica than was normal. It challenged the domination of the West and Europe in football which is its biggest plus point. But...it will be forever stained because of how many died to put it on.
Putting the bisht on Messi was a bit on the nose as well!
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If i was someone who believed in conspiracy theories this one would be at the top of them. Messi winning with Argentina becoming the GOAT, playing against France with Mbappe getting a hattrick, 1st and 2nd in golden boot, both players employed by a club that Qatar owns. Must be a fix.
Easy to see how people believe conspiracy theories isn't it, especially if it confirms your world view or opinion. I very much doubt any big plots exist, wealthy country, expensive players.
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Well that was incredible. One of the best games i have ever seen and in terms of entertainment i cant think of one better.
Gav, nowhere near as gripping as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nre18VsoowI
And the added bonus for you that we lost!
I was there with my brother, biggest rollercoaster that I have ever been on.