UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: r-man on April 16, 2014, 03:42:13 pm
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I've knocked up a 7's and 8's topo for the Tor cave, with all the newer problems, plus locals' linkups and daft footless problems. It should make it easier to see where all the lines go, and spot new possibilities. Whilst I'm waiting for Dawid to make corrections, here's the list. I've tried to order problems so that easy-for-the-grade problems are above hard-for-the-grade. So what needs to be regraded, and which soft problems need to be shunted above harder ones?
Basher’s Problem 7A
Keen Roof Finish 7A
Basher’s Problem RH 7A+
Perverse Reverse 7A+
Perverse Basher’s 7A+
Weedbasher 7A+
Weedkiller 7A+
Weedfiller 7B
High Green 7B
Cave Problem Standup 7B+
Perverse Killer 7B+
Wee Dimension 7B+
Perverse Reverse Footless 7B+
Weedkiller Footless 7C
Killerweed 7C
Cave Problem 7C
Converter 7C
Shades Of Grey 7C
Sympathy In Choice Standup 7C (guess)
Tumbleweed Standup 7C
Ben’s Roof 7C+
Ben’s Roof Original 7C+
Tumbleweed 7C+
Hook 7C+
Sympathy In Choice 7C+/8A
Let’s Get Ready To Rumbleweed 8A
Ben’s Roof Extension Direct 8A
Perverse Killer Footless 8A/8A+
Killerweed Footless 8A+
Keen Roof 8B
Keen Roof Extension 8B
Fat Lip 8B
Belly Of The Beast 8B+
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Ben's Roof is 7c with kneebar and the extension is 7c+ with knee bar. Likewise Belly of the Beast was graded 8c with no kneebar but repeats (not sure about Ethan's) have been with knee-bar.
There's Steve's link up too (Weedkiller/7c problem reverse/Ben's Roof) grade=?
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Killerweed 7b+ not 7c in a million years.
Perverse reverse footless can't be 7b+ unless I'm even worse at footless climbing than I thought!
Ru - Ethan used knee. Really if belly is going to avoid the knee it should use nacho's direct method on keen roof extension so that it's less of a dumb eliminate.. I presume Nacho's method hasn't been repeated?
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For the 'dumb' eliminate saying no kneebar is quite possibly the most simple thing you could say at a venue where most probs are eliminate in nature.
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Ben's Roof is 7c with kneebar
Ouch!
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Ben's Roof is 7c with kneebar
Ouch!
Ru are you not the guy who wrote not one but two bouldering guides with Ben's Roof in at 7c+, both published after the evolutionary advent of the human leg joint?
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Dense- IMO a tight line is better than a technique elimination, even if it's harder for the guidebook writer.
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Dense- IMO a tight line is better than a technique elimination, even if it's harder for the guidebook writer.
Eh?
7C+ (no knees)
This description took two words, two brackets and 10 chars if you include the space. Wish all descriptions were that simple!
(Edit) not sure why I wrote that - wrong end of stick etc... Soz.
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Ru are you not the guy who wrote not one but two bouldering guides with Ben's Roof in at 7c+, both published after the evolutionary advent of the human leg joint?
Yes. First time was when knees were only just starting to be used. 2nd time we discussed a downgrade but left it the same as a few ascents had just been the news and we didn't want to do a Zeke the Freak. Plus people are now camping out on the knee bar thanks to pads.
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So how about a slash grade for knee bar but without using a pad :lol:
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Dont start this bollocks again. It was bad enough in parisellas.
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Yes. First time was when knees were only just starting to be used.
Some of us with both functional limbs AND minds used the kneebar before either book and 5.10 kneepads were out. It's the easiest way to do the move on a prob with no recorded rules, why would you not?
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Dense- IMO a tight line is better than a technique elimination, even if it's harder for the guidebook writer.
you either decide whether or not a problem is an eliminate or not and then grade it accordingly.
The humble eliminate obviously had a place in the UK pe-indoor walls, if the masses today decide that they're no more than a historical side note, then that's fine, but using an easier sequence does make a difference.
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Right, so the only changes are:
Killerweed down to 7B+
Perverse Killer Footless up to 7C
Ben's Roof down to 7C
Have added no kneebars rule to Ben's Roof Original Finish, so the 7C+ version is still there for those who want it.
Same deal with Ben's Extension - added standard problem at 7C+ and the direct finish at 8A with no kneebars.
Steve's Linkup - my grade calculator is suggesting 8A+/B. ?
After some discussion with Dawid about Hook, it seems like there could be two slightly different lines with overlapping holds. His version takes a crucial crimp with left hand, whereas the easier version takes that crimp with right, using a heel out right. Dawid suggests 7C and 8A. Also, he reckons 7B+ for the standup to Sympathy In Choice. Just waiting for him to draw the line on the topo...
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I think we will need a poll before you go and downgrade Ben's, I think the longer you spend at a crag the less in touch with reality one's idea of grades is!
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To be fair, I've heard people muttering about it being 7C a decade ago. I got the impression it was always regarded as being pretty soft at the grade?
Disclaimer, I've not actually done it. I never liked it very much, which is why I found so many other linkups to climb when I was spending time at the Tor.
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I'm surprised Keen Roof hasn't been downgraded yet. I mean, it's had a ton of ascents hasn't it? And it's got a knee bar that people seem to camp out on with pads thesedays! Can't have any soft grades at the Tor now can we :P
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Yes. First time was when knees were only just starting to be used.
Some of us with both functional limbs AND minds used the kneebar before either book and 5.10 kneepads were out. It's the easiest way to do the move on a prob with no recorded rules, why would you not?
Fine. That's not the point. In 2003 most people thought it was 7c+ and most people didn't use a knee bar. Some didn't spot it, some ignored it on purpose. Hence the grade in the 1st book was based on not using a knee bar. Now knee bar beta is the defacto method and the consensus grade has fallen, I think to 7c, probably. Maybe it's still bottom end 7c+ even with a knee bar, I don't care really. I was just pointing out, for the purposes of Robin's "geek list" that there's a knock-on effect to all the other problems that do/don't use a knee bar, and things like the extension to Ben's Roof and Belly of the Beast were first done and graded without using the knee bar on purpose, as eliminates, but repeated with knee bars. About 50% of the problems at the Tor are eliminates in some respect.
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I'm surprised Keen Roof hasn't been downgraded yet. I mean, it's had a ton of ascents hasn't it? And it's got a knee bar that people seem to camp out on with pads thesedays! Can't have any soft grades at the Tor now can we :P
On a serious note, at some point between the first ascent and all subsequent repeats a solid spike of rock on the lip hold on Keen roof which made the hold a bit tricky and painful to hold right mysteriously disappeared, thus making it easier. We didn't see a downgrade for that.
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Ru - I wouldn't argue with any of that, it was more of a petty 'told-you-so' kind of point. Said point being that if you grade things for 'they way most people do it' rather than the easiest way whilst pretending a problem is a none-eliminate, you eventually end up in confusion and re-grading.
I actually think eliminates have an important, even vital role in bouldering (I intend to bore the world with an eye wateringly geeky article about the subject one day), but I'm dead against things being inappropriately eliminatified and the presence of assumed/de facto/hidden rules.
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I'm with bonjoy, I've got no problem with eliminates as long as they are properly defined what does my nut it are things exactly like this where something becomes eliminate due to a new sequence being found.
If it's eliminate fine write it up, if not, fine grade it for the easiest sequence (as the majority find it).
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Ok, here's the topo.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5uFuggege4sLV90ZWtKT3JLUTA/edit?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5uFuggege4sLV90ZWtKT3JLUTA/edit?usp=sharing)
And here's all the footage Dawid could find, which should provide some useful beta. (On Shades of Grey, ignore what Dawid does, the high heel as per Wee Dimension is easier for normal sized people).
Ravens Tor Addiction Addditions on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/92890389)
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Cheers for the topo.
Have a wad point
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sick! psyched for sympathy of choice, i do shades of grey same way dawid does except with out the intermediate, just throwing for the finishing hold, gonna have to look for this intermediate!
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Sympathy looks good, keen to get on it
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ke6nm5mhhGc/UJjlYMebDtI/AAAAAAAAYmw/xZmLjGzRnHc/s1600/nice-jazz.jpg)
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Someone just pointed out to me that CWP has downgraded Belly Of The Beast on his 8a.nu scorecard. 8B+ now.