UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: shark on September 06, 2012, 10:34:28 am
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Waddage to Mina for doing Mecca :bow:
Kneebars with new kneepad technology means that this is has recently become THE way to climb Mecca (or is it?) and is significantly easier than without. But is it still 8b+?
I hope so for everyone who is pleased to get their first 8b+ tick in.
On the 8a.nu comments serial downgraders Mawson took the grade " The kneebar sequence with new knee pads makes this very close to 8b but probably not quite" and so did Ed Hamer "Soft, YEAH". So is that the end of it? Chatting to Steve Mac he was unsure (whilst cutting a ridge in the back of his Blancos for better heel-hooking ;D )
Any other views and more generally on kneepads and their use?? ... Available at a reduced price from our Sponsors the Depot (https://www.theclimbingdepot.co.uk/shop/product/5-10-neon-knee-pad) ;)
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Kneepad helped me on bens roof, but I think this was because it stopped my knee from hurting and I'm a wimp with painful moves!
Personal view: It’s good for cranking, and as long as you’re true on the style you did it in! Enjoy it :)
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Hope this isn't the case, but I can't help reading this as a pretty negative post (maybe that says more about me?), despite the starting sentence. Neil and Ed say 8b+, Steve Mac isn't sure, but when a girl does Mecca, then you start thinking about whether it's really 8b+ and open a thread?
Personally I'd say leg length makes more difference than pads to most knee bars, and since IME so long as you fit into the knee bar, the longer the better, Mina's on pretty safe ground.
disclaimer: I'm incapable of 8b or 8b+, and so can't tell the difference
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as long as you’re true on the style you did it in! Enjoy it :)
:agree: (except for in the cave ;))
I got spanked on mecca, I tried to do the knee bars (sans pad) and found it very uncomfortable and very strenuous, to the point that they were of no help so I am not really sure if the knee bars do make it much easier but then again, if I am known for anything it is not my technical finesse.
I think neil and ed's comments are more a reflection of the level they operate at, than a reflection of the difficulty of the route. I think downgrading mecca would be the ne plus ultra of the ridiculous downgrading trend.
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I'm not convinced developments in equipment should be regarded as reasons to downgrade. Boots, training facilities and methods etc have also come on a long way since the eighties; this is all part of the reason why 8b+ is no longer the cutting edge.
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Hope this isn't the case, but I can't help reading this as a pretty negative post (maybe that says more about me?),
I'd just like it to know the truth.
There have been a lot of mutterings about whether the knee is on or not but now it has become the typical way to do the route and by all accounts is significantly less hard this way.
I think it would be great to establish that it is still 8b+ but if it is 8b lets accept that rather than jolly along, not treading on each others egos and so end up with grades that don't reflect the difficulty as discussed in Caminiti's post about Rocklands (http://www.michelecaminati.com/).
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I'm not convinced developments in equipment should be regarded as reasons to downgrade. Boots, training facilities and methods etc have also come on a long way since the eighties; this is all part of the reason why 8b+ is no longer the cutting edge.
Not all routes are easier from using kneepads
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but when a girl does Mecca, then you start thinking about whether it's really 8b+ and open a thread?
I was discussing about it on the way back from the tor on tuesday and yes seeing Mina with the kneebar/pad in the photo did prompt me to post but not because she's a girl.. anyway she's a beast not a girl.
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There have been a lot of mutterings about whether the knee is on or not
Can you take this statement in isolation and look at how ridiculous it is?! I can see people getting tunnel vision by spending too long at one crag but this is crazy. Perhaps each route at the tor should have a laminated card at the start informing you which holds and/or techniques are disallowed if you would like to make a legitimate ascent?
Dave Graham at his talk in Sheffield a few years ago said that kneebars and kneepads were the future and should be thought of as an option on all routes and problems. This is apparent in the climbing he has done since, and I think it has probably opened the door for a lot of climbs that would otherwise have not been possible.
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I know this isn't an attack on Mina's ascent but here is my tuppence worth.
Some people do get a lot back in the arms from the knee bar but its drains you in other ways i.e. your core and body strength. Also as Duma says leg length does play a part in how much help a knee bar can be. Mina actually fell off from the top of the groove because she tried to recover in the knee bar for too long. She got very little back because she didn't fit it that well. I think on her ascent she was in it for maybe 10 seconds at the most. Hardly a rest!
However she knew that when she did Mecca there would be whisperings of a down grade! She thought it was amazing climbing and she made it look a damn sight eaiser than a lot of people I have seen on it. I reckon some big names have done Mecca and the 8b+ seems to have stood the test of time. In my opinion there should be more praise for the ascent, it's a bloody fine effort!
When the footage appears of it we can all see!
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I know this isn't an attack on Mina's ascent but here is my tuppence worth.
Some people do get a lot back in the arms from the knee bar but its drains you in other ways i.e. your core and body strength. Also as Duma says leg length does play a part in how much help a knee bar can be. Mina actually fell off from the top of the groove because she tried to recover in the knee bar for too long. She got very little back because she didn't fit it that well. I think on her ascent she was in it for maybe 10 seconds at the most. Hardly a rest!
However she knew that when she did Mecca there would be whisperings of a down grade! She thought it was amazing climbing and she made it look a damn sight eaiser than a lot of people I have seen on it. I reckon some big names have done Mecca and the 8b+ seems to have stood the test of time. In my opinion their should be more praise for the ascent, it's a bloody fine effort!
When the footage appears of it we can all see!
Hi Dave,
Better out in the open rather than whisperings. Thanks for the detail. Sounds like the kneebar didnt help her at all. I hope it is 8b+ still. FWIW (very little!) pass on my praise. I thought it was impressive Lucinda doing a burly route like the Oak. Mina doing Mecca takes it to another level.
Simon
Cheers, Simon
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Not the best timing for your post, Shark!!!
;D
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Not the best timing for your post, Shark!!!
;D
:spank:
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To quote cjd from another thread....
"Its the same old British story really - lets give people negative feedback for cool bits of climbing, and bicker until everything is 7c+, one of the main reasons why international standards are increasing with great and fun scenes, and we are all becoming known as a nation of grumpy know it all cnuts, still stuck where we were 10 years ago."
Awesome Effort Mina! :thumbsup:
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Hi Dave,
Better out in the open rather than whisperings. Thanks for the detail. Sounds like the kneebar didnt help her at all. I hope it is 8b+ still. FWIW (very little!) pass on my praise. I thought it was impressive Lucinda doing a burly route like the Oak. Mina doing Mecca takes it to another level.
Simon
Cheers, Simon
Agreed, definitely better than whispers and like I said we have joked about it! The footage will be brilliant and Nick will be putting a short together I think.
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:spank:
This is total bollocks. It's The Tor, virtually every route / problem has changed a bit since it was first done. IIRC some decent holds have fallen off Mecca since the first ascent(s) so if a not amazing kneebar is now used so what? It just redresses the balance a bit. The fact that this is being mentioned because Mina has done it leaves a very bad taste.
Maybe we should regrade everything. Make It Funky down to 8b+ (well loads of people have done it) and Hubble down to 8c so it all makes sense........... oh no it's probably 9a in comparison to similar routes elsewhere.
Fuck's sake! :slap:
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I don't want to get involved in the grade debate, but I just wanted to say what an absolutely amazing effort it was by Mina. Seriously impressive. I bet she crushed it too! That's what everyone should be talking about, not the knee bars.
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props to Mina for doing this.
I did Mecca without the knee bar about 7 or 8 years ago (before the knee bar was as popular as it is now) and have also been on it now and again since - and tried the knee bar (although sans sticky pad) I didn't find it much of a help (and am a similar size to Mina) but I could see that the rubber would make it a bit more secure (although the foot hold is still wack).
I have seen people really work the knee bar - Ryan and Jon, both strong, talented and tall - but they made the whole thing look piss (both doing the extensions).
Its probably fair to say that if the knee bar fits for you Mecca is a little easier than if it doesn't, and if you wear a sticky knee pad it is also a little easier but I think still 8b+. The knee bar has always been there and I know people who used it years ago - the reason I didn't is like I said above I didn't find it helped me.
I also kinda agree with JB (and that Dave G kid) that we need to embrace new technology as it comes along - don't downgrade everything just because boots, or whatever, have got better.
If there are certain routes/problems where it makes a massive difference compared to other routes then we may need to downgrade. On JBs stag do we were all on some 7C some place in font and the crux slap up an arete went to a move I could chalk on with a sticky knee pad - more like 7B...
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I don't want to get involved in the grade debate, but I just wanted to say what an absolutely amazing effort it was by Mina. Seriously impressive. I bet she crushed it too! That's what everyone should be talking about, not the knee bars.
Exactly!!
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Just checking the url.
it definitely says ukbouldering, not ukclimbing.
As Nibile says, you could have timed this post better Shark. Almost worth a puntering.
Kneebarring is a new(ish) technique that is being utilised where it can, like dropped knees, dynoing, spragging, and jamming before it the climb hasn't got easier its just the approach to climbing it that has evolved.
Also is this any different from following a regimented training plan, using a beastmaker, waiting for good conditions, or redpointing? They make being able to climb the route easier, but the route itself is essentially unchanged.
As Jules L, and several others have said, a superlative effort.
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Personally I'd say leg length makes more difference than pads to most knee bars, and since IME so long as you fit into the knee bar, the longer the better, Mina's on pretty safe ground.
Duma is spot on RE leg length. First time I ever saw Mecca done with a kneebar was Smitton, and he was camping out on it in just a pair of jeans. As was Ryan. First time I ever went up, without a kneepad, I couldn't even get a decent kneebar to fit cos my legs were too short, they weren't worth the effort of putting in i.e. would have made it harder. Second time I took a kneepad and it felt great. On the flipside I've seen Ryan try the same kneepad and he couldn't fit his leg in anymore!
Overall its a good sequence if you can make them work, kneepads help for this, and they are legit (is anyone really saying they aren't?!). Better technology (?!) makes no difference, its just a spacer to make your leg fit, you get the same effect rolling your trousers up (seen this done).
Does it change the grade? Don't know I'm too shit to do it either way, but as folk say if Mawsons didn't downgrade then probably not.
Amazing effort Mina, one of the greats. :bow:
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As Nibile says, you could have timed this post better Shark. Almost worth a puntering.
Go ahead I deserve it.
Sorry Mina
:-[
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Just checking the url.
it definitely says ukbouldering, not ukclimbing.
At least it is up on this url, UKC seem to be a little behind here!! ;)
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What Dan said.
On the point of kneepads, they're here to stay, almost everyone in loup was climbing in a pair. Incidentally, the 5.10 ones are way better than the cava ones, only issue is when the rock is close to your knee the rubber wont cover it so there are some knees better with neoprene or homemade pads which can sit lower.
Well done mina!
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Is this some sort of troll bingo thread Shark cos I call house.
Significant route at a significant crag close to a significant climbing community with technique different to original sequence resulting in rumours of a down grade recently climbed by a woman.
Jesus H fucking Christ...
Well done Mina!
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Knee bars have been around for years. These new rubber kneepads are unbelievable on certain kneebars. When i first did Trigger Cut in the Cave it was about 7c+ for me. Now its 7b+ with the 5.10 pad, it just sucks the rock up. Theres no denying that using kneepad's on Mecca is significant. Getting a few shakes on a PE route like this is massive. Having said that it was always a solid 8b+ without and by the sound of it this just knocks it into the lower end of the grade. Mawson still thought it was harder than Walking Mussel and that's been confirmed as 8b+ by plenty of beasts (Carson, Bransby, Robins, Caff, Dyer, Barrows couldn't do the easy moves ;)). It's amazing to see a hardcore classic British route like this get done by a British gal. :bow: Mina and Shauna really have raised the bar for power/PE climbing. Good effort to Lucy Creamer too for being the first one to crack the grade.
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Why are the majority of people in the UK such negative bastards!
Chris Davis said it right in another post.
It seems as soon as someone does something at there limit/ hard/ breaking into a new grade, people suggest that it must be soft or did it an easier sequence. Lets congratulated people, encourage them and see how far they can go.
Mina (who I gather is mainly a boulderer with a incredible global ticklist for anyones stand) has just done 8b+ (Second British Women??). WTF that's amazing. I say ignore the idiots and GO FUCKING GET MINA. Push the sport in a new direction.
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I don't see anything wrong with discussing whether new technology makes things easier but you definitely chose the wrong moment Shark :smart: Especially as people have been debating this for months now. Extension next Mina...
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Outstanding effort Mina! Fantastic to hear of such joyous news, keep it coming!
To quote cjd from another thread....
"Its the same old British story really - lets give people negative feedback for cool bits of climbing, and bicker until everything is 7c+, one of the main reasons why international standards are increasing with great and fun scenes, and we are all becoming known as a nation of grumpy know it all cnuts, still stuck where we were 10 years ago."
7c+!? I thought 7b+ was the Welsh ceiling?
Funny Mecca story for the day, Matt Donnelly told me his dad first spotted the potential kneebar as a sequence for him to climb it. He tried it, then did it. Not a bad spot for a man who would then have been mid 60s and had never climbed.
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The comment that knee bars are a new-ish climbing technique is hilarious - they've been used as long as people have climbed rocks... I imagine the early pioneers climbing wide cracks found out about knee-bars pretty quickly!
As for down-grading - as my limited knowledge of sport climbing goes, I didn't think any route graded 8b or harder in the Peak got downgraded until either Keith Sharples redpointed it, or a blond speccy climbers from Lancashire outsighted it.....
The thread is genius - well done for Shark for getting muddled up in minutiae
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As Nibile says, you could have timed this post better Shark. Almost worth a puntering.
Go ahead I deserve it.
Sorry Mina
Looks like the Barrow boy has given you your medicine.
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great effort Mina.
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Log pile?
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Awesome achievement by mina
Log pile?
Yup!
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+1
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Nobody knee'ds this.
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I can't wait for this to join t' other threads in the log pile. That would cap things off.
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It's thigh time this went in the log pile. We don't want to calf any more bad puns.
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I regret having started it but the thread has yielded a lot of good points by those familiar with the route and what sort of advantage or otherwise comes from using the new knee pads as well as info on Mina's ascent too from Dave none of which is shit IMO.
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Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...
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Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...
I know and I have nothing against them and I used one made out of carpet for Powerplant. There is no going back anyway on these things - even Pat Littlejohn used chalk in the end.
There are some routes and problems where they are only going to make a marginal difference and some where they will make a massive difference. That should be recognised especially if the difference is enough to shunt a problem or route into another grade. From the commentary so far it seems that Mecca doesn't fall into that category which is great as it is a benchmark iconic route which is used to compare other routes. Though I think if people want an informed view of an ascent and its relative challenges then they should know that knee pads can make a big difference (otherwise people wouldn't shell out Ł40 for them). The fact that from what Dave said that kneebars didnt work well for Mina added to the difficulty for her compared to others. That's the sort of thing I find interesting and I'm sure others do too.
I think guidebook writers should grade for using knee pads given that they are commercially available and widely used obviously where it makes a difference such as illustrated by the Font problem El Mocho described.
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Seems to be a legit post to me.. I'm stumped why anyone would want to send it to the log pile. Still I'd better toe the line and join in.
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To quote cjd from another thread....
"Its the same old British story really - lets give people negative feedback for cool bits of climbing, and bicker until everything is 7c+, one of the main reasons why international standards are increasing with great and fun scenes, and we are all becoming known as a nation of grumpy know it all cnuts, still stuck where we were 10 years ago."
Awesome Effort Mina! :thumbsup:
Well fucking said!
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Its quite laughable that people will argue the toss over a plus, morphology being what it is.
Knees make a difference, as does height, body type (even gender?). This only matters when you define your climbing simply by a number.
It seems she was psyched to crush Mecca (not just '8b+'), and that has been done. Bon Effort.
This is like when Bens roof got all those ascents and another idiot started a similar debate...
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Fuck me, next we'll have people saying you can't crimp XY or Z hold on whatever route cos someone thinks they saw Jerry openhanded it. Its times like this that I'm ashamed to be a tor devotee.
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cos someone thinks they saw Jerry openhanded it.
Madness. Jerry crimped everything. Allegedly.
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I've never used pads so can't comment on that. But the kneebar sequence has always been the obvious way to climb this route. The fact that a lot of people (read men who can't bend their legs) in Sheffield can't work out sequences to save their lives isn't everyone else's fault. :P It probably is more or less helpful depending on leg length, but I've seen people of all shapes and sizes use it. Presumably a pad makes it better for some people, and maybe a bit less painful. As for how much easier it makes it, the answer IMO is "a bit, but not that much". As Monkey Boy says, you get a bit back in the arms but it tires your core - the one redpoint I fell higher than the move to the groove, was actually taking the knee out of the kneebar (which requires a fair bit of body tension). As Elmo says, it's a pretty crap foothold you're barring off.
Anyway, for what it's worth I used three kneebars on Mecca. One the obvious one in the middle of the groove. One with outside of knee and thigh wedged against the top of the groove and one with my L knee briefly wedged against my R knee in the other kneebar! - before levering off the R kneebar using the high LF egyptian to make the last tricky move. Basically you can pretty much "swim" from the base of the groove to the last crimps with very little weight on your arms (although that doesn't in any way make it "easy"). It's a frickin groove. That's what you're "supposed" to do in grooves. It's what makes em interesting to climb. It's the reason Mecca is such a great route rather than just being a series of dull crimps.
Also, I did this well over a decade ago, so there's certainly nothing new about it. And at various times before and since I've watched other people independently work out pretty much the same sequence. The fact that it's only just becoming the normal way in Sheffield says more about Sheffield than it does about anything else. Maybe a bit more yoga and a bit less Beastmaking... :lol:
But whatever sequence, IMO it's still at least two full grades harder than similar length routes at Malham like the Oak or Magnetic. It's also certainly no more than a grade easier than Make It Funky. ie: it would be 8b+ anywhere else in the world. The fact that some folks in Shef have it dialled and therefore find it easy is pretty irrelevant. 8b+ SHOULD be easy to people who are as strong as they are. Also as Jasper suggested, all these routes are harder than they used to be, not easier - if nothing else due to polish, but holds have come off too.
Finally... Really well done Mina. :2thumbsup: Ignore the silliness and get on Make It Funky. No useful kneebars on there (that I could find) - but there are toe jams, toe hooks, egyptians, heel toes and lots of other good stuff. It's called rock climbing. ;)
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:popcorn:
Looks like the only logical conclusion to this thread is for Miss Wujastyk to ceremonially knee Shark in the nuts (pad optional) before an audience of Tor regulars. ;)
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I've got two projects on the Orme that require a rubber kneepad on both knees. How times have changed...
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Funny Mecca story for the day, Matt Donnelly told me his dad first spotted the potential kneebar as a sequence for him to climb it. He tried it, then did it. Not a bad spot for a man who would then have been mid 60s and had never climbed.
Edit; Poor memory, it was the egyptian!
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Pads aren't new, theyre just new to the uk scene. Americans have been using them for a long time...
I keep trying kneepads on routes in the vain hope that they will compensate for 2% of my considerable weakness... they just don't seem to work for me though, jeans seem almost as good, and infinitely less annoying to climb all the non kneebar moves in. i'm not against pads, just gutted i can't stick them on and path things. (like everyone in france seems to now)
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No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.
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(http://www.minalesliewujastyk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/287666_521655184518321_118849080_o-1024x576.jpg)
Yes, I fell out of the knee bar! My penultimate session saw me shake myself out of this infamous resting position. The knee bar, although a good rest for the arms (one at a time, I don’t know how people manage to take both arms off!), required a lot of tension on my part to stay on and I slowly slipped out of it from pure fatigue. A frustrating place to fail.
While on this subject I feel I should clarify for those who are interested: I did use the knee bar and I did use a knee pad, as has been done in other recent ascents. This was always my plan but in addition I am maid of honour at my sister’s wedding in a week’s time and my dress sits just above the knee, a small gender specific consideration….
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Is that what all the fuss is about? Hardly looks like the most amazing place to recover.
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I've heard a rumor that Shark is involved in the development of a unique, portable, double sided training device with four knee bar widths that can stimulate massive increases in knee bar strength yet will be subtly forgiving on the patella
Supposed to be called something like The Prism
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"the Wedgie"
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Is that what all the fuss is about? Hardly looks like the most amazing place to recover.
Exactly! Note foot basically on tip toes just to get the knee bar in - how long can people rest on the big toe of one foot for these days? Not exactly relaxing!
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log
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It definitely seems that Mina didn't get much advantage out of it. Its obviously still body specific to get the most out of it and its gonna be tiring to the core whoever you are.
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That knee bar looks 8b+ alone.
I think its brilliant Mina's crushing at the tor. Few more damaged hardman egos out there now.
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While on this subject I feel I should clarify for those who are interested: I did use the knee bar and I did use a knee pad, as has been done in other recent ascents. This was always my plan but in addition I am maid of honour at my sister’s wedding in a week’s time and my dress sits just above the knee, a small gender specific consideration….
:-\..hmmmmm
I've got two projects on the Orme that require a rubber kneepad on both knees. How times have changed...
It's all starting to make sense - Doylo's obviously a transvestite and is concerned about how his knees will look in a dress. Yes how times have changed indeed Doylo. The implication that kneepads = 'for girls' has been confirmed and real men, for whom routes like this are too hard, can safely pigeon-hole pads together with those other well-known methods of bringing a hard route down to size known as: 'having small hands' and: 'weighing 8 stone'. Rest easy. :)
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As for down-grading - as my limited knowledge of sport climbing goes, I didn't think any route graded 8b or harder in the Peak got downgraded until either Keith Sharples redpointed it, or a blond speccy climbers from Lancashire outsighted it.....
I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading
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I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading
Think it's The Shark these days
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I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading
Think it's The Shark these days
That's why I started the thread. No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.
Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.
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No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.
I hope you see the irony in using K3 and kneepads in a thread about grades and kneebars! If you don't then its a terrible example.
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Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.
Don't you mean knee replacements?
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I've never used pads so can't comment on that. But the kneebar sequence has always been the obvious way to climb this route. The fact that a lot of people (read men who can't bend their legs) in Sheffield can't work out sequences to save their lives isn't everyone else's fault. :P
Ok as I'm a glutton for punishment (and because you said Mecca is two full grades harder than the Oak :'( ) I'm going to bite.
If you weren't aware of it, the extent to which you got a kneebar in and rested on it caused a bit of a stir at the time. It had a few people wondering how much easier it was to do Mecca if you could get a rest in. However, as nobody else that I was aware of could repeat your feat or at least to anywhere near the same extent the discussion died. I would surmise that those who couldn't get their knee to work at the time would have had a far better chance had they had a 5.10 kneepad. So in short I think that the regularity of kneebar usage up until very recently has been rarer than you imply even for those outside Sheffield :P
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I thought Reevsey was the limus test for downgrading
Think it's The Shark these days
That's why I started the thread. No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.
Seeing as no one is piling in with a downgrade, me and Keith are clubbing together for a pair of kneepads.
I think 'No point getting on xxx if its going to be downgraded' is about the most depressing sentiment I've seen on this forum. Hopefully you're joking, but just in case you're not, I think if you do Mecca it should immediately be downgraded, kneepads or no. Which it probably would be anyway, lets face it.
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There's no need to be like that
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No point getting on Mecca if its going to be downgraded.
It will only be downgraded if you do it, so I guess Mina is fairly safe in her 8b+ tick
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6Q9wAorJq9c/Rux6T_t8m3I/AAAAAAAAAEo/ZGRvuiXBSUU/s1600/storm_in_teacup+-+BW.jpg)
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"If you weren't aware of it, the extent to which you got a kneebar in and rested on it caused a bit of a stir at the time." - Shark
No, I'd no idea. Seems a bit bizarre. As I said, I certainly wasn’t the first to use it (I suppose maybe I was the first to be seen by locals using it...)
Not sure about the "extent" to which I used it. Mina's description sounds pretty much as I remember it. It did make the clip easier. Other than that it was just a brief chalk, and just felt part of the sequence rather than some massive rest. I guess if pads mean that some people can hang out there for ages and take both hands off that might change things a bit, but doesn't sound like that's the case for most folks.
What I'd argue probably makes a bigger difference than the kneebar to the overall difficulty is whether or not you're tall enough to reach the egyptian move from the undercut pocket all the way to the L crimp out of the top of the groove. I could reach this with a bit to spare (I’m 5’10), but from what Elmo told me when he did it, I think having to use the poor L sidepull to make the move up R before reaching back L makes things a fair bit trickier.
“So in short I think that the regularity of kneebar usage up until very recently has been rarer than you imply” – Shark
I guess all I can go by is what I saw on the occasions I visited – clearly Mecca has had stacks of ascents and maybe you’re right overall. But out of the folks I saw trying it back around 1999-2001 the majority did use it (admittedly quite a lot of those were a big team of Japanese guys of various sizes who were all pretty much using the same sequence.) To be honest, I think it wasn't till after I'd done it that I saw some locals doing it the "normal" way – up till then what we'd been doing had just seemed like the “obvious” thing to do. But I suppose sequences are always “obvious” once you know them. I am a bit surprised that people knew about it and couldn’t get it to work, but there we are.
Sorry about the Oak line (and I meant the Oak and Overnite rather than the Oak and Magnetic - Magnetic's a different type of route). That wasn't aimed at you - I was just thinking of similar length routes I did around the same time. For what it's worth it is what I thought - I felt that all the grades of those routes were pretty much right first time round and I was surprised when people started fiddling with them. But hey, one person's opinion doesn't count for squat (and I think I'm probably in the minority on the Oak anyway.) Also for some reason, thinking back I did tend to end up at the Tor in full sun in the middle of summer, so perhaps that affected my opinion a bit.
This does all seem pretty daft though. I've talked to a stack of people who've done Mecca and until this thread I'd never heard anyone question the grade. I'm hardly the most qualified person to say what is or isn't 8b+, but from the amount of ascents it’s had I think pads would have to change things in a pretty big way for it to be downgraded. No doubt you'll always get a few folks who think it's easier though, same as any route.
And finally whilst I'm hardly the romantic "lets all climb HVS and watch pretty sunsets" type, I really don't think it matters a fat lot. It's MECCA. It's still the same route even if it's graded ZZZ104f+. Along with Body Machine, IMO it's the best sport route in the Peak. Hopefully you were joking about not trying it if the grade changed, but if not… Get some pads on (or try it without) and get on the thing whatever people say.
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Body Machine is awful.
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ly good
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No biggie. Seb used a multitude of proto knee pads down cheedale cornice in the early 90's and it still took him yonks to get up K3.
I hope you see the irony in using K3 and kneepads in a thread about grades and kneebars! If you don't then its a terrible example.
Saw first ascent and first flash. Guess you're right.
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I want you all to know that I haven't read this thread because I fear it will make me give up rock climbing completely. I'm also ashamed of everyone who has contributed to it.
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Are the majority of Tor classics eliminates?
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I want you all to know that I haven't read this thread because I fear it will make me give up rock climbing completely. I'm also ashamed of everyone who has contributed to it.
me neither too
I only used information from tertiary sources to inform my contribution (no, geologists, I do not mean that it was 50 million years out of date)
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And finally whilst I'm hardly the romantic "lets all climb HVS and watch pretty sunsets" type, I really don't think it matters a fat lot. It's MECCA. It's still the same route even if it's graded ZZZ104f+. Along with Body Machine, IMO it's the best sport route in the Peak. Hopefully you were joking about not trying it if the grade changed, but if not… Get some pads on (or try it without) and get on the thing whatever people say.
Yes it was just a bit of banter with Robin when the thread was taking a more humorous tone which Adam jumped on. Clearly it is one of the top sport route's we have. I aided it when I first started climbing including the top HVS?? pitch and watched Basher working it. I hope the fair grade is still 8b+ as its what Basher gave it. The grade has has survived the jug falling off in the groove, the polish and now kneepads, it seems. A mention should be given to Kristian for his largely unsung mammoth effort reinstating the starting jug as it would most almost certainly have gone to 8c without it.
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Not been online for a few days. is Mecca 8b yet? :shrug: :w00t:
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not yet but give this thread time
(http://communities.ptc.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-1286-6326/DeadHorse.gif)
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Is kneepad use allowed in climbing competitions? If not, why not?
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Now that's a good question
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Now that's a good question
Oh crap. Does this mean I'm going to have to find a different stuffed animal to take a picture of?