UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Dolly on August 23, 2012, 02:39:53 pm
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I only heard about this when I read it in the Sheffield Telegraph.
Do you think its going to stand any chance ?
a) in a place where there are already 4 walls and loads of cellars and woodies
b) at "that" end of town
c) in a place where its 15 mins from the city centre to some of the best real rock in the country ?
I'm prepared to accept that I'm old fashioned in my view of indoor walls (ie that they're there to train on when you can't climb outside) but is there really enough demand to sustain a new facility ?
I've got no agenda at all in this - just surprised that another wall should be considered in Sheffield and at that location.
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The other way of looking at it is that having 4 walls demonstrates theres clearly a substantial market of punters - so open up and try and lure some of the punters away...
Why open a costa where theres already a starbucks and a cafe nero?
In some ways its more of a sure fire bet than other places...
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OK - I can see the merit in that argument.
Why do you think its more of a sure fire bet than the other places though ? - because they've already established that there's a market ?
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Where is it going to be?
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according to planning application linked on the other channel S4 7QX
http://publicaccess.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=M84H87NYFY000 (http://publicaccess.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=M84H87NYFY000)
got to say I am of the "is another wall really needed?" stance.
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Location. Location. Location.
Maybe they are hoping to capture the westward travelling climbers who currently travel from west of the M1 to Sheffield...can't see it encouraging centrally and western based Sheffield climbers out of town though.
Also, it doesn't look so impressive as to constitute a 'National Climbing Centre of Excellence' and as far as.....
'We believe that our new centre will not only fulfil the requirements but surpass them by far' those requirements must be pretty sub-standard. It is certainly not going to be the equivalent of Ratho.
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There's cleary enough climbers in sheffield to make it a viable business. I'd be surprised if Pittsmoor is a hotbed of active climbers though.
Basically unless its absolutely jawdropping then I can't see it attracting the lucrative sheffield south-west bouldering market away from the Works. Fuck knows about lead/toproping market, it is only 3 mins drive from the foundry.
One thing it does have in its favour is its much easier to reach from the M1 than any of the other walls, especially the Works, and probably easier parking too. Maybe there's enough of a market in rotherham/wakefield/barnsley/donny climbers to make a killing?
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http://riverdonproperties.co.uk/River_Don_Properties.html (http://riverdonproperties.co.uk/River_Don_Properties.html)
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I'm not quite sure which camp I'm in but I found this statement quite interesting:
Climbing potentially may become an Olympic Sport at the next Olympics and the centre
would then become the main training ground and home for competitiors.
Apart from the typo which I can't quite believe didn't get picked up, I'd love to know if they can back this statement up...
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Looking at how rammed most of the walls are of an evening, whatever the temps, i'd say there is enough of a market. I'd just worry that it would spread out the customer base too far leaving them all out of pocket/profit, that said I don't know how well these places are doing etc. I'm interested as I could walk there after work but I dont feel a dying need for anything other than what Sheffield already has. Good luck to them......
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I think it has been put forward as a sport for 2020 but doesn't get voted on till the Olympics in 2016.. Hence potentially becoming an Olympic sport in 8 years time?
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Jesus lets all pray it doesn't make the cut. The inane questions I'd have to field from family and colleauges would be reason enough. Lets not forget it take a bit longer to build new crags than it does to buil new walls.
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Completely agree Dave.
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Interesting. It's on my way home from work.
Mind you I also live one minute's drive from The Works so unless it's totally amazing I'll probably never go like Dave said.
However, I reckon it's financially viable and quite a clever location. That area has Don Valley Stadium, The English Institute of Sport etc so it will be in a decent spot to benefit as climbing increases to become more mainstream.
Worth bearing in mind as well that I think that part of Sheffield benefits from tax breaks as a regeneration area or whatever they call it now. I recently dealt with a grant application for a client in an area like this and they got 30% of the cost of the property they were buying. Massive help to start up costs as in, that's your deposit covered.
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had a conversation about this earlier. It makes total sense to me as a business. I think the market for these things has moved so far away from the original concept of being "for climbers" and are now designed and built to attract people to go climbing.
I see it only a matter of time until one of the big leisure companies moves into the market such as Virgin and builds something the same but posher. The walls in sheffield are great for climbing but pretty rank for facilities. I ocassionally take non climbing customers to the works for a bit of corporate entertaining and they cant believe that you have to pretty much change in the corner of the room and dump your bag in the pile with others.
This is not a critasism of the works but the new people coming into the sport attracted by articles in the gardian etc will gravitate to the nicer facilities with showers changing rooms and costa coffee in the corner.
I think a more corporate wall will do very well in Sheffield regardless as to whether or not the climbing is better than what we already have.
Climbing walls dont make money from the likes of us they make money from joe bloggs off the street wanting to goto the climbing wall.
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OK - I can see the merit in that argument.
Why do you think its more of a sure fire bet than the other places though ? - because they've already established that there's a market ?
Yup.
Quite canny I think - lets say there are 500 people who use each wall each week (a complete stab in the dark..) thats 2000 punters... if you open an alternative, then if you split that 5 ways its at least 400... and you may well be able to drive one of the others out of business etc... or offer a better product etc.. have better coffee.. more DFBWGC etc..
Don't you love capitalism eh!
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Agree with all your post Gav.
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Agree with all your post Gav.
Ditto that.
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Yep. Plus I see they have 71 car parking spaces. That's about 50 more than the Foundry.
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Agree with all your post Gav.
Ditto that.
So do I. Depressing isn't it.
I remember when the Works was being built there was plenty of doubt among climbers as to its viability given the number of walls and customers in Sheffield. It might look like a no-brainer of a good business idea now, but at the time people thought they were really sticking their necks out. Obviously it turned out to be the first wall which proved that the right kind of facility can generate a large proportion of its user base from scratch.
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I see it only a matter of time until one of the big leisure companies moves into the market such as Virgin and builds something the same but posher.
Like this in Sandton (the posh bit of Johannesburg)
http://www.rockfit.co.za/ (http://www.rockfit.co.za/)
I think if there is anything like a chance it will "go olympic" this is inevitable.
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Agree with all your post Gav.
Ditto that.
So do I. Depressing isn't it.
I don't find it depressing. Indoor climbing is developing its own scene.
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Munich is maybe somewhat similar to Sheffield in that is the climbing capital of the country, although bigger - population of the metropolitan area is somehwere over a million, versus 600,000 for Sheffield if wikipedia is to be believed. Also different in that it's lacking good climbing right on the doorstep: Kochel and Altmühltal, the nearest decent climbing areas, are an hour or more away. And probably more affluent. But anyway. Somewhat similar in being medium sized cities with a high concentration of climbers.
Munich has three good, decent sized mainly routes climbing walls in or near the city, plus a large dedicated bouldering wall. Plus some older / smaller / more obscure facilities of which I can think of at least five off the top of my head. Plus another big routes wall and another big bouldering wall planned or under construction. All of the ones I go to regularly are packed out on weekday evenings, and I don't doubt for a moment that the new ones will be too. And on rainy weekends, although less so on fine weekends, perhaps suggesting that a significant fraction of the clientele are actual climbers.
Of the four better, larger, actually existing walls btw. two are owned by the DAV - although the day to day operations are franchised out to a commercial company - and two are private commercial ventures.
Otoh I've been to a couple of big commercial walls in northern Germany, far away from any decent climbing areas and clearly aimed at the "indoor climbing" leisure market, that were empty echoing ghost towns and felt pretty doomed as business ventures. So perhaps one does need the local base of actual climbers to kickstart such things.
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Agree with all your post Gav.
Ditto that.
So do I. Depressing isn't it.
I don't find it depressing. Indoor climbing is developing its own scene.
What Gav describes is a dumbed down corporatized simulacrum of climbing. Is it selfish, elitist, misanthropic and discriminatory to prefer that climbing is less accessible to idiots? Yes probably. Call me a selfish, elitist, discriminating, depressed misanthrope.
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had a conversation about this earlier. It makes total sense to me as a business. I think the market for these things has moved so far away from the original concept of being "for climbers" and are now designed and built to attract people to go climbing.
When the works was announced I was more convinced that one of the other walls (namely the Edge) was doomed, but I was clearly wrong. Do people think that its as easy to generate a completely new user base for roped climbing as bouldering? You can start bouldering with minimal tuition and it suits a very social atmosphere, I'd say that's less true when you actually need to belay (and know how to).
I see it only a matter of time until one of the big leisure companies moves into the market such as Virgin and builds something the same but posher. The walls in sheffield are great for climbing but pretty rank for facilities. I ocassionally take non climbing customers to the works for a bit of corporate entertaining and they cant believe that you have to pretty much change in the corner of the room and dump your bag in the pile with others.
From what I know and have heard of Awesome walls I'd be surprised if the proposed wall is realistically heading in that direction, rather than just making some bold statements? If they're going to generate a new user base then fine, if not they may have to work harder than the other examples.
Climbing walls dont make money from the likes of us they make money from joe bloggs off the street wanting to goto the climbing wall.
Do you think this is true even for the Foundry? If you end up there when the conditions are good the place is far from busy.
Regardless of whether it is or not it'd be great if any new venture could cater for both ends of the spectrum from the offset. I can understand why, but still find it odd that private training facilities (School, Mill) offer better training possibilities than the largest commercial walls.
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Regardless of whether it is or not it'd be great if any new venture could cater for both ends of the spectrum from the offset. I can understand why, but still find it odd that private training facilities (School, Mill) offer better training possibilities than the largest commercial walls.
You'd think they'd sort it with the space they have but the upshot is they don't care and its not profitable
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Despite how it may seam at the works the average climber i would guess still only climbs 5+/6a and around E1. The % of people climbing above 7B or E5 in the UK i guess will be less than 5% and therefore not a particularly interesting area for a profit making facility.
The main lead wall at the foundry is a classic example of the usage of the "elite" it takes up a massive amount of space yet is only used by a maximum of 10% of the membership. The livingstone walls
The school had pretty much everything you could want to train for climbing (bouldering) everything else is frill. Put the circuit board and the campus/motherboard area in a room and the same could be said. The rest of the works is for fun, but that's what makes the money.
If i was building a wall as a business the last people on the list would be the "elite".
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If i was building a wall as a business the last people on the list would be the "elite".
That's fair enough, but if you're going to make a song and dance about being a 'National Climbing Centre of Excellence' then its a different matter.
The main lead wall at the foundry is a classic example of the usage of the "elite" it takes up a massive amount of space yet is only used by a maximum of 10% of the membership. The livingstone walls
Surely if it was just that simple then it (and the Wave) would no longer exist or it'd be plastered with buckets Kalymnos would be proud of?
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I expect Dave (D) will be after schools and youth work as a daytime business base. There's plenty of potential there.
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Agree with all your post Gav.
Ditto that.
So do I. Depressing isn't it.
I don't find it depressing. Indoor climbing is developing its own scene.
What Gav describes is a dumbed down corporatized simulacrum of climbing. Is it selfish, elitist, misanthropic and discriminatory to prefer that climbing is less accessible to idiots? Yes probably. Call me a selfish, elitist, discriminating, depressed misanthrope.
sharks already printing the hoodies.........
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The main lead wall at the foundry is a classic example of the usage of the "elite" it takes up a massive amount of space yet is only used by a maximum of 10% of the membership.
Surely if it was just that simple then it (and the Wave) would no longer exist or it'd be plastered with buckets Kalymnos would be proud of?
I wonder if there's marketing value in having a "elite" corner? Or if most walls are still in fact run by climbers who want to dedicate at least some space to proper climbing even if it isn't completely commercially rational. One of my local walls has a sector where the warm up route is 7b and everything else is 7c to 8b. The rest of the wall often gets really crowded, but the only time I've ever seen more than a couple of people per evening on this sector was when the Russian national team was in town for a competition.
(They also have two bouldering rooms. The new one is set as nu-skool blobby fun, while the old one hidden away in the attic has - to their very great credit - lots of gnarly pulley-endangering crimps that are actually of some value for training for rock)
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Dave D's proposed building is not big enough to house a national climbing centre under the BMC's current criteria (a link to which he has posted in the thread on t'other channel), but I'm sure he'll build a nice big commercial centre and do pretty well. New walls create new interest in the sport, and new climbers, then this is of long-term benefit to all the wall operators in Sheffield. If some wall operators are worried about the impact of extra competition, this is surely the best time to seize the initiative and improve their own facilities?
If Awesome Walls give the other Sheffield walls (including my own) a kick up the arse then its all good. I hope we all take the initiative and spend the rest of the year giving our facilities a refurb to give Davey D a good run for your money!
Gav - I refuse to give you a shiny corporate climbing palace were you can schmoose clients and demonstrate your toe-hooking skills.... ;)
PS: Dave - If you put me out of business, can I have a route-setting job? Just keeping all my bases covered!!
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If nothing else, it'll be somewhere different to go
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Thanks for all the comments guys- good, bad or indifferent!
My end goal is not to have a national title but to build a centre that I'm proud of that gets used by many people of many standards. If we can aim to be of a national standard then why shouldn't we, who's going to loose out?
I've had new competition in Manchester, Liverpool and Stoke over the last couple of years, has this put me under or has it made me focus?
Cheers,
Dave Douglas
AWCC
PS: Percy - I think your business is safe!
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Wise words from Percy. Competition should help you focus on your own business and in turn raise your game. It can only lead to better value for customers.
Indoor climbing is changing whether we like it or not, it's part of the curriculum in schools and it is now a mainstream activity for hundreds of thousands in the UK, and one of the few sports that are growing year on year. It's also one of the only activities where newbies can interact with seasoned pros in such a harmonious way, and it is almost unique in ignoring age, gender and class barriers.
You can expect to see many more new walls as indoor climbing's popularity continues to grow. Those who respect and care for this new breed of customer will flourish and grow and those who don't will send their business elsewhere.
We are in a similar situation with a brand new wall coming to Bristol. No one owns a monopoly and far from being uptight about it, we believe this is great for the city's climbers, providing more choice and introducing new people who might not otherwise be exposed to it.
The bottom line for us is to be the best for our customers that we can.
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I don't find it depressing. Indoor climbing is developing its own scene.
Is developing? Surely it happened at least a decade ago? I know people who would rather travel to Ratho or TCA in Glasgow for the day than climb outdoors locally.
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With regards to your statement about everybody said the works wouldn't be viable Jon as soon as Sam told me their ideas for world domination I said they're gonna make money hand over fist. There's room for at least a couple more walls in shef n I can't think of a reason why people would think otherwise, unless of course they're an absolute fucking idiot.
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With regards to your statement about everybody said the works wouldn't be viable Jon as soon as Sam told me their ideas for world domination I said they're gonna make money hand over fist. There's room for at least a couple more walls in shef n I can't think of a reason why people would think otherwise, unless of course they're an absolute fucking idiot.
The medal's in the post Nostradamus. I didn't actually say everybody, did I.
I remember when the Works was being built there was plenty of doubt among climbers....
I also thought it would probably be a success, but that's beside the point of what I was saying.
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No ones mentioned the fact that Dave D is stalking me...... I build a wall in Dublin - he builds a wall in Dublin. I build a wall in Sheffield - he builds a wall in Sheffield. Hang on, that also means he's stalking Graeme too - well, there's no accounting for taste!
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Nah, it must be Graeme stalking Dave D as he already own's Dave's website www.awesomewallssheffield.com (http://www.awesomewallssheffield.com)
Fast off the mark! ;D
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That's Mackems for you...!
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Competition is definitely a good thing for all but ultimately good news for local climbers as has already been mentioned by a Dave, Percy an Paul T.
The brand spanking new super Beacon has just opened over here in N.Wales and obviously loads of folk are checking it out and loving it and we've taken a hit, but that's to be expected for now and it has simply made me look in detail at what we do at The Indy, what we offer that's a little different and how we can improve. It's good business and stops us being slack and we're already planning refurbishments, changes to the pricing structure, etc. All good news to the local climbers and stops any stagnation both for me and the wall.
I think the key here is not to be competing head on with exactly the same product but trying to find a bit of a niche, something we do a little differently.
With regard to 'elite corners' etc, I actually find my V5+ (Indy V5 is quite hard) market to be really important, especially in the evenings. These are the ones who if we're doing things right will come into the wall 3 times a week at least to train, they'll often bring a little entourage with them, they give punters something to aspire to, and there is actually quite a few of them, they even give the wall a little kudos/cool providing they're not parading around like nobbers, something we're quite lucky with here.
Providing a proper campus and finger board set up is obvious and doesn't really take up much space, but also setting quality, regularly changed harder problems away form super easy ones is important and something many walls can't seem to bring themselves to do. They'll set a hard problem then put a V1 jug fest through it which brings with it it's own problems.
It's all about what type of wall you want to be and what sort of scene and atmosphere you want in there and I think you can market to both the punters and better climbers you just have to organise the wall with a bit of thought and not have massive groups in the evenings too regularly, unless you go all out for the group and punter market of course, great money spinner but imagine working there..
Paul T and Percy hit the nail on the head, more walls breeds more climbers, more competition breeds better walls.
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Nah, it must be Graeme stalking Dave D as he already own's Dave's website www.awesomewallssheffield.com (http://www.awesomewallssheffield.com)
Fast off the mark! ;D
And .co.uk Technically theses domains are owned by the awesomest wall in Sheffield ie The Works.
But Percy is correct, Davey D was spotted in Munich just before I turned up for the Boulder World Cup last weekend. And I am sure I spotted the bugger in the crowd at the World Youths in Singapore tomorrow ;)
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awesomewallsmunich.com
awesomewallssingapore.com
Where will it end?
Dave D
Happy with www.awesomewalls.co (http://www.awesomewalls.co) thanks.
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awesomewallsmunich.com
awesomewallssingapore.com
Where will it end?
Dave D
Happy with www.awesomewalls.co (http://www.awesomewalls.co) thanks.
Can I make a request for
awesomewallshull.com please?
Pretty please?
Pretty pretty please?
I notice theres a new bouldering wall planned for York by the by.,.. Red goat climbing or something.,...
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Can we please please please get some decent sized training boards put in the new centre - something Sheffield NEEDS.
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Hey Dave D,
It would be great to have a wall committed to forming and coaching a Junior Peak team to crush the South East in YCS
The Foundry wound their team up and whilst the Edge has advanced Junior Coaching sessions the JETS is not a cohesive team as such.
I could give a long list of what would make an ideal training venue but I'm sure you've heard it all before..
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Wise words from Percy. Competition should help you focus on your own business and in turn raise your game. It can only lead to better value for customers.
Indoor climbing is changing whether we like it or not, it's part of the curriculum in schools and it is now a mainstream activity for hundreds of thousands in the UK, and one of the few sports that are growing year on year. It's also one of the only activities where newbies can interact with seasoned pros in such a harmonious way, and it is almost unique in ignoring age, gender and class barriers.
You can expect to see many more new walls as indoor climbing's popularity continues to grow. Those who respect and care for this new breed of customer will flourish and grow and those who don't will send their business elsewhere.
We are in a similar situation with a brand new wall coming to Bristol. No one owns a monopoly and far from being uptight about it, we believe this is great for the city's climbers, providing more choice and introducing new people who might not otherwise be exposed to it.
The bottom line for us is to be the best for our customers that we can.
I shall pray nightly that the new Sheffield wall is nothing like TCA Bristol.
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I shall pray nightly that the new Sheffield wall is nothing like TCA Bristol.
Each to their own...
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I know this maybe jumping the gun somewhat but who will be setting at the wall?
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If they follow the TCA Bristol model they'll be recruiting from the local zoo for route setters.
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meow. kitten want some milk?
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Yeah go on then
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Yeah go on then
milk? you fat bastard
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I know this maybe jumping the gun somewhat but who will be setting at the wall?
Yes, jumping the gun but we've already had a lot of interest off local setters that we've never used over the west before!
Dave D
http://www.facebook.com/AwesomeWallsSheffield (http://www.facebook.com/AwesomeWallsSheffield)
www.awesomewalls.co (http://www.awesomewalls.co)
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If they follow the TCA Bristol model they'll be recruiting from the local zoo for route setters.
Apologies to everyone on an interesting and informative thread for the off topic comments...
However, 39, your comment above is out of line. I know all the setters at TCA, several of them are on here and will see the above, they all put a lot of thought and effort into their setting and deserve more than this sort of juvenile shit. If you don't like the problems at TCA Bristol how about some constructive comments on how they could improve? You started a pretty good thread (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,11441.0.html) on this very topic once, care to update it, or do you prefer abusing the karma system?
Good luck with the new wall Dave D.
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do you prefer abusing the karma system?
I wouldn't call that abuse, it seems to be working perfectly well, and just as it is intended to.
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Yes the system works fine, but that's not to say some don't abuse it (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=otherkarma;u=2139)
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Yes the system works fine, but that's not to say some don't abuse it (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=otherkarma;u=2139)
The "abuse" I recall of the karma system was to start pointless tit-for-tat puntering.
Three Nine can express what they think of others posting using the karma system just as others express what they think of their posts.
This has the potential to lead to said tit-for-tat, but checking the last page or so of stats (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=viewkarma) this doesn't appear to be the case as Three Nine's dishing out (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=otherkarma;u=2139) (15 -ve/20 +ve on first page isn't that skewed I'd guess but would have to check others pages to see if it stands out) and reception (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=ownkarma;u=2139) of karma isn't particularly heavy in a particular time frame if you look at the stats. So no tit-for-tat as far as I can see.
I suspect I'm missing the "abuse" you are referring to though. :shrug:
Still a facetious and dumb comment to make about route setters though.
Anyway apologies :offtopic: , I'm bored sat with nothing to do than drink beer and surf the net whilst waiting for an overnight bus.
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If they follow the TCA Bristol model they'll be recruiting from the local zoo for route setters.
However, 39, your comment above is out of line. I know all the setters at TCA, several of them are on here and will see the above, they all put a lot of thought and effort into their setting and deserve more than this sort of juvenile shit.
That comment is out of line, please. I really dont think that romantic opinion of setters and there efforts is truly accurate! And lets look at the social skills of route setters in general. I actually think the "zoo" comment is pretty spot on. Just because you can pull hard shouldn't be a qualification to hold a T-bar.