UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: Dingdong on April 08, 2023, 07:53:30 am
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Is it ok to climb on wet grit? Even easy routes? I only ask because of the confused messages I’m getting from multiple people. For example I’ve seen numerous companies taking people out for RCI assessments on grit when it’s either raining or it’s rained and it’s drenched. Do they have some sort of exemption that allows them to do those in whatever conditions?
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No
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
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Climbing wet v diff cracks in the rain wouldn't be a problem IMO. I started climbing toproping with a group in just such a scenario. Obvs this is very different to bouldering.
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
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I'd rather people were able to make sensible decisions based on the situation, rather than be forced to dogmatically adhere to simplistic commandments for fear of an enthusiastic public shaming at the hands of the punitively pious high priests of rock climbing.
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I think what's required is a wetGrader.
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Wouldn’t it just be simpler to say don’t climb on wet gritstone which is fragile and prone to wear and breaking?
Even climbing a v diff crack when it’s drenched will polish it for others.
Lots of mixed messages about the ethics surrounding wet grit.
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It would be simpler for you, yes, because you've got no desire to climb easy routes on damp days. But that would preclude other people from doing things that they want to do which cause no harm.
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Wierd innit. Ive often gone for a walk along the edges when its too wet to climb & always resist the urge to question the thinking of all the trad types clinking away on sodden grit. From what i gather re companys/instructors is that a booking is a booking and thats it. They know they shouldnt but do it anyway. Would be great if they led by example eh. Lets be honest, easy routes are no less prone to wear than boulder problems..they just still go with polish and lost holds
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It would be simpler for you, yes, because you've got no desire to climb easy routes on damp days. But that would preclude other people from doing things that they want to do which cause no harm.
Sorry but im not talking about 'damp days' - im talking about fully wet, soaked, drenched grit.
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing. And even within that not always followed.
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Should ask this question on ukc :popcorn:
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.
Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?
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Should ask this question on ukc :popcorn:
It'd just turn into an argument about bolting and the thin end of the wedge and is anything other than doing HVS' all day really climbing when look when I started climbing in 1977 or 1877 or AD 77 or whatever it wasn't called trad it was just climbing none of these gyms etc etc etc
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.
Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?
Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.
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I can see how small holds would break more readily in the wet. Would footholds polish more in the wet than the dry? Im not sure they would... Malham footholds have polished up remarkably well in the dry!
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.
Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?
Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.
Pretty sure bolting on grit in the peak is not debatable :-\
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Getting down to the nitty gritty :) probably.. as more crud is going to stick to wet feet before pulling on. I doubt anyone is being instructed to wipe their feet before standing on dripping wet rock
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Climbing wet v diff cracks in the rain wouldn't be a problem IMO. I started climbing toproping with a group in just such a scenario. Obvs this is very different to bouldering.
Not sure I agree with this - is there not an element of elitism in saying that it's fine to trash routes provided they're low-grade ones? Obviously a VDiff crack isn't reliant on fragile smears and pebbles in the same way as a harder route or the majority of boulder problems and so it’s a fundamentally practical argument, but at the same time it leads to damage that makes things harder and less enjoyable to climb. I think it's pretty safe to say that footwear being wet means that more sand and grit is on them and that that leads to more polish and damage, and there are so many routes or buttresses at classic crags (the Gingerbread slab at Lawrencefield, the -ology buttress at Stanage Pop, the Ant slab at Yarncliffe) that are totally fucked to the point that they're basically of no value to the community beyond being crèches for new climbers who don't know any better as a result of this. And while the damage that has been done to them is probably a function of sheer volume, the process has clearly been accelerated by people climbing in the wet. Anyway, this is all getting a bit UKC.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CkWBuBZDrQL/ Things like this are pretty vile as far as I’m concerned and I can only imagine that anyone promoting their business in this way has no clue about ethics. Then again I have a friend who is an instructor who has talked about ending up at Eastern Edges crags with clients on marginal or even outright crap days and setting up topropes on routes that aren't really dry enough to be climbable, and that they wouldn't dream of getting on if they were out climbing themselves. They do it because they have paying clients who have booked for a specific day and often driven a good distance specifically in order to climb on rock, so if they don’t just crack on and set up the topropes they have to either cancel and not get paid or go to the wall instead, at which point the client isn’t getting what they wanted. My friend generally finds what they consider to be something of a middle ground by explaining that what they’re doing isn’t really okay in the context of climbing ethics and is basically a one-off, in the hope that if the client does continue with climbing they’ll know not to do it again.
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I wouldn't say elitism. Entry level climbs are accessible to all and usually have many different options in terms of larger hands and footholds which are probably less prone to damage in the wet than the smaller holds of more difficult climbs. Per se, climbing in the wet is not desirable for the reasons stated in the this thread, however there are commercial interests at play in terms of guiding etc. I have no perspective on companies taking their clients out in the wet, my day out with a group was in the 90s, I doubt anybody thought about it much back then.
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I wouldn't say elitism. Entry level climbs are accessible to all and usually have many different options in terms of larger hands and footholds which are probably less prone to damage in the wet than the smaller holds of more difficult climbs. Per se, climbing in the wet is not desirable for the reasons stated in the this thread, however there are commercial interests at play in terms of guiding etc. I have no perspective on companies taking their clients out in the wet, my day out with a group was in the 90s, I doubt anybody thought about it much back then.
Exactly, climbing wasn’t anywhere near as popular back then. Now there’s droves of new people who want to get on rock and won’t understand or know the ethics behind climbing on wet rock (specifically gritstone) and as mentioned a lot of these activity companies are taking people out when the rock is drenched.
Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.
My original point was actually more aimed towards accreditation companies taking people out who should know better though and I see it often. I’ve now spoken to 2 separate people who have gone and done their RCI assessments on fully wet rock and they just shrugged it off
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It depends on the rock, how wet it is, and the use.
If the rock is very hard it could be really wet and light traffic up an easy route still wouldn't do any damage.
Im talking about grit around stanage and burbage where they usually do those RCI assessments.
I only ask this because even though kingy mentions easy V Diff routes etc surely that gives mixed messages to punters who might see people out climbing on drenched rock which might then make them believe it’s ok in any scenario. Aren’t there also cases where these easy climbs have big flakes and jugs which might snap if they’re wet?
Personally for me I would ban all climbing on wet grit and sandstone regardless of difficulty but this post was more to bring attention to the fact that I’m often going for walks or driving past burbage north and seeing these companies taking people out on wet grit.
Ban maybe not the right word mind you, not like there's any official regulations or whatever. Ultimately we don't climb on wet rock due to a general consensus that we shouldn't for various (good) reasons, but it's really just an in-community thing.
Why not? We can ban things like drilling bolts, access to certain crags etc - how different is wearing down and polishing rock, potentially breaking off flakes and jugs to drilling anchor bolts at the top of routes?
Access is legally regulated. Bolting is debatable depending on where. There's no law saying you can't climb on wet rock on publicly accessible land, nor imo should there be.
Pretty sure bolting on grit in the peak is not debatable :-\
Debatable in terms of legality not in-community ethics, and plenty of things in the Peak are bolted. Not grit mind you, but point me to the written official regulation that prohibits bolting grit.
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If you agree that polish and damage are bad things but think that it's possible to draw a line below which they're acceptable because at that grade and below no one could possibly find the climbing physically difficult, then you're being elitist. I’ve climbed with people who are just as much ‘climbers’ as anyone on here (they go to the wall as often as they can, they jump at the chance to climb outside, they consume climbing media voraciously) who would struggle to get up VDiffs due to physical limitations that they were born with or that have come about during their lives, and the idea that their enjoyment and aspirations are worth less than anyone else’s is unacceptable in my view.
I appreciate that this may come across as me going off on some mental tangent, banging a wildly boring inclusivity drum as per, but I think it’s an important point to make as I’m guessing it simply doesn’t occur to most people on here. Also not having a go at anyone in particular, especially Kingy, and hope it doesn't come across as confrontational; I feel quite strongly about this because I have a personal connection to it, and prior to getting to know some of the people I'm thinking of in writing this post I'd never thought about climbing beyond me and my homogeneous group of mates, and wonder if that's the case with others.
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Well said. I've climbed with someone who struggled to TR a mod, due to some physical disabilities and anxiety. He can't stop obsessing about climbing.
I still think climbing sodden grit VDs (or even dry VDs if footwear is covered in damp sand) is ethically dodgy but when we look at shades of grey it's popular grit bouldering where by far the most change in damage is noticable in my 3+ decades of climbing.
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My personal view on this is that any form of ambiguity is unhelpful in the long run. There's already enough when you factor in that you can climb on some rock types while they're wet, let alone some grit being okay but other bits aren't.
Just recently this confusion over which rock types are okay to dry wet holds on led to some very experienced, and plenty strong, Manchester based climbers climbing on and publicising their drying of wet holds. Their excuse was they'd not climbed on grit much and assumed it was the same as lime or mountain rock. If people are starting their climbing on wet grit I can't see how that's going to help foster good habits in the future.
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Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.
You could not be more wrong.
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Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.
You could not be more wrong.
Care to backup your lame excuse for a reply with some evidence?
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I agree with bradders about ambiguity. I also feel that saying banned will not have a very desired affect, as Wellsey stated its not some law and people may not understand, instead teaching people from all levels of the impact which can be had would go alot better than simply saying something is banned, help them understand and perhaps they can do the same for their friends. I myself when I was new to outdoor climbing have definitely made the mistakes bradders highlighted, I was ill informed and those who first took me out were too and I feel that had there been better forms of information available I would have likely learnt this sooner. Those which haven't made this mistake when they began climbing outside are very lucky that they were introduced and exposed to climbing on sandstones by those who had already learnt this, but not everyone has that luxury unfortunately.
As a whole the Climbing community comes across as quite elitist I think which I don't think helps issues like this, aggressive undertones lead to people not listening alot of the time imo, a more informative approach coming from a variety of stakeholders to me makes the most sense to me.
There are plenty of occasions of strong climbers saying how they dried wet grit in some capacity (just because the surface of holds no longer feel wet doesn't mean the rock itself is fine right?) to do a problem which definitely adds to this confusion.
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Absolutely, Yetix.
Unless the local council introduces a bye law to the effect, climbing on grit in poor conditions can’t be banned.
Ensuring people understand why it’s better for them to avoid doing this is definitely the way to go. As you say, condescending to people won’t work. Having role models do the right thing is an important part of the message.
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Asking role models to do the right thing when its their livelihood is tricky i guess. Outdoor guiding is seasonal and nobody’s making a big stack of cash i wouldn't have thought (at least, those who aren’t running companies). Doesn’t make it right but taking a group out in crap connies vs not getting paid is what it comes down to.
Doesn’t seem to bother all the other traddie non-proffessionals you see up at stanage in the pissing rain & fog though.. can’t really put that down to inexperience as they clearly know their gear etc
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Banning was probably a strong emotional response from me so yeah my bad. Probably more that it should become a standard addition to the ethics of grit climbing such as not bolting gritstone. It would be good to educate and not give out so many mixed signals.
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Most of the damage I see on grit is worn gear placements, not climbing in the wet
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People shouldn't climb wet grit, or wet rock generally, and there's lots of ways of getting that message across, and ideally guides would follow that too. I get why they might not in whatever circumstance though.
Ultimately the rock is somewhat transitory even within our lives. While we can preserve it, one day we may need to bring increasingly into our ethics an allowance for the consequence of damage to rock to grades, to whether we should limit our attempts even more etc. Look at Deliverance, or the polish on Science Friction (that FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT sorry sorry I'm done now). This ties into that more widely
Anyway I think that climbing walls should do more. Put posters up with outdoor bouldering ethics etc, that'd be good. It's the main avenue into outdoor climbing, so there's an opportunity to teach there.
P.S. it would help if some people who definitely should know better didn't occasionally flaunt the rules
P.P.S This all relates to Bouldering cos that's what I do, they can gridbolt Stanage in the rain while wearing crampons for all I care
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Maybe we should just sacrifice a couple of shit routes for the guides to climb when it's wet.
The guides still get to do their job in inclement weather, and nobody will complain about the shit routes being a bit shitter by accelerated polish.
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Also not sure how true it is that harder climbs have more fragile/breakable holds. If anything its backwards, the harder climbs are all ripple crimps, or really bad slopers whereas the easier climbs have huge flakes, jugs, buckets which are more prone to snapping when wet.
You could not be more wrong.
Care to backup your lame excuse for a reply with some evidence?
Right, ok then. As a general rule, the holds on boulder problems are smaller than those on easy trad routes. On easy routes the weight of the climber is spread over a bigger area and thus the pressure applied to one unit area of rock is reduced. Lipped crimps break really easily. I've seen them crumble in perfectly dry conditions. The weight of the climber is being applied through mm2 of rock. It would take a monumental amount of traffic to erode the Jolly Pleasant Scramble at Crookrise, even if it's piss wet through. In addition to the reason I've just given, this is in part because on an easy grit route, not everybody who climbs it will use the same bits of rock.
That doesn't mean that anybody can climb any easy grit route in the wet. I wouldn't have any groups abseiling down Chalkstorm in any conditions, and top-roping an easy route covered in lipped crenellations in the wet would be wrong. However, an instructor taking two clients up President's Slab in the wet, after they've been briefed to towel any mud off their shoes before stepping on, isn't going to do any harm.
I think there's lots of well-meaning people posting but also some people who aren't very well-informed. Sorry to pick on you, Wellsy, but there's nothing wrong with climbing on wet volcanic mountain rock, for instance.
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To be honest it sounds like the people who most need simplistic rules are bouldering types who have never done any easy trad and haven't got a clue what they're talking about, to save them getting offended by mountaineering types minding their own business and causing no harm.
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Yeah I say generally cos most are probably best avoided. There are exceptions of course, although tbh why anyone would want to go bouldering on wet rock is beyond me.
Also how dare you
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Yeah I say generally cos most are probably best avoided. There are exceptions of course, although tbh why anyone would want to go bouldering on wet rock is beyond me.
Also how dare you
I'm not sure this is true. Limestone and volcanics (Inc granite etc) are fine in the wet. It's grit and sandstone that you want to worry about.
I can think of a million things I'd rather do now but 15 years or so ago, psyched off our heads and learning the craft, we enjoyed slogging up to Grey Crag or swimming up Cup and Saucer.
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Limestone bouldering isn't really "fine" in the wet, it's really slippery and your fingers will ping off holds all the time. Plus that horrible chalky paste-like stuff that well used holds become. I mean you could do it, ethically it'd be fine I guess, but it sounds incredibly shit
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The problem here is seeing everything through a bouldering prism. Those who see climbing through a routes prism deal with wet holds all the time.
Edit; however since more and more people get into climbing through bouldering people are right that it may set a precedent.
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To be honest it sounds like the people who most need simplistic rules are bouldering types who have never done any easy trad and haven't got a clue what they're talking about, to save them getting offended by mountaineering types minding their own business and causing no harm.
:lol: :agree:
If nothing else, the probability of people meaningfully changing the nature of a few already polished easy routes by TRing in the wet is, I believe, low. At least so long as the routes are chosen not to have fragile flakes (probably long gone on most easy Eastern Grit). The probability of people meaningfully changing the holds on boulders by scrubbing the living hell out of them with a brush whilst trying to dry the holds is not that low. Small changes make bigger differences on smaller/worse holds, obviously.
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I think it’s good to set pretty hard and fast rules such as “Categorically don’t climb on wet grit or sandstone”. The reason being that most humans by their nature will bend rules a little to their convenience.
As an example of that, how many people here drive a bit quick sometimes, probably on the motorway where we believe it’s safer to do so. Why don’t we all go belting along like it’s the autobahn ? Because there’s a 70 mile an hour speed limit.
If we say absolutely stay off wet rock and push that message then less damage will occur, simple as that.
On the issue of groups and instructors climbing in the wet, I don’t see why they should get a free pass. The issue of a paying client is no excuse for damaging the rock. It should be made clear that climbing can’t happen in the wet and a suitable alternative arranged in case that does happen. Some instructors I know who take people out bouldering already have that policy and if it’s wet they just go and do a coaching session at the wall instead.
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I'm not sure this is true. Limestone and volcanics (Inc granite etc) are fine in the wet. It's grit and sandstone that you want to worry about.
Not all limestone is fine in the wet. At a crag like Raven Tor or Parisellas, where the limestone is bullet hard, it's fine.
But at somewhere like Lees Bottom or Hollin Hill, the limestone is held together with sandy layers. These layers weaken just like sandstone when they're wet so it is not OK to climb these in the wet.
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I'd say it's still not 'fine' for any rock. It's near impossible to keep footwear clean on wet lower grade routes and sand inevitably grinds and polishes. It's an education issue for me rather than talk of bans. However as most people avoid that type of fun these days the ethical dilemma doesn't seem large. Still, a lot of the polish we see on major UK trad classics came from the harsher damage of the nailed boots era, certainly for Stanage. Also on lower grades there are plenty of old chipped holds, especially in Yorkshire. Ground erosion at the base of crags is also an old problem.
The recent faster changes to rock I see are mainly on popular problems and hence the vastly more important need for education on that. It's especially bad on the most popular grit. On gritstone trad, wear on gear placements is more serious than newer polish, especially so for weighted cams grinding out breaks or falls snapping flakes (ground out breaks have been pretty horrific at Birchen for decades now but are becoming increasingly obvious on Stanage classic VS lines).
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Limestone bouldering isn't really "fine" in the wet, it's really slippery and your fingers will ping off holds all the time. Plus that horrible chalky paste-like stuff that well used holds become. I mean you could do it, ethically it'd be fine I guess, but it sounds incredibly shit
It's funny reading stuff like this having spent the weekend climbing on Portland. You could go months getting nothing done if you did that here.
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When I lived in Sheffield and instructed in the Peak, I occasionally used to take people climbing on wet grit.
I agree, it does not set a good example.
But on some days, you really have f**k all other options. Rock damage aside, it's not like I would choose to hang out at crags in the rain if there was something else I could do that delivered a worthwhile day for people's money. They'd often have travelled a fair distance and have booked accommodation etc too. Most of these days were probably not direct bookings, so it's not even like I could get in touch with them in advance and arrange a postponement or something, I'd often be working for another company.
Am I going to refuse to work? And not get paid? And not get any work for x company in future, having binned them off at the last minute? Some hill to die on. If we had to cancel every time it rained in the UK, instructing wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be any instructors.
How much additional damage is caused on the kind of routes we did in the wet - Mods at Burbage, the easier stuff in the quarries - is debatable. Regardless, it never sat well with me the image it portrayed, and I would try to explain the problems with climbing sandstones in the wet and the ways we were trying to mitigate those problems as best we could.
But would I do the same now if circumstances dictated? Yes.
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So would you be happy for the blokes building your new house to work in the rain or frost and accept how it might effect the building. Some profession’s are unfortunately are effected by the weather, if you are not prepared to accept the conditions it imposes. Do something different.
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I guess the difference would be the builder will continue to get work if they say they can't work where as if a instructor turns the work down last second they don't get hired anymore.
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Forecast looks shite tomorrow, who fancies heading out and climbing some VD chimneys in big boots?
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Then the powers that be who endorse guiding companies need to sanction the ones who insist on climbing in wet conditions.
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Forecast looks shite tomorrow, who fancies heading out and climbing some VD chimneys in big boots?
Webbo :)
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Forecast looks shite tomorrow, who fancies heading out and climbing some VD chimneys in big boots?
Webbo :)
We could walk along Stanage and check everyone’s qualifications and report the fuckers. As I could be bothered. :lol:
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So would you be happy for the blokes building your new house to work in the rain or frost and accept how it might effect the building. Some profession’s are unfortunately are effected by the weather, if you are not prepared to accept the conditions it imposes. Do something different.
That's a crap analogy.
Anyway, I have done something different. It's much better being in North Wales, if it's raining you go to the coast or put on those big boots.
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I agree it’s not the best but there are lots of jobs where you can’t work because of the weather. But if you believe it ok to destroy the medium that is the the foundation of of your profession( and I’m using profession with my tongue firmly in my cheek) Just carry on.
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Are you on the drink, like? Why the dig at my 'profession'?
Destroy the medium...get real. These few bits of crag I'm talking about have been shagged to death by groups of muddy booted children for generations, and the holds are still intact.
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When was the last one of your profession was struck off.
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Profession:
a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
I don't much care what it's called but :shrug:
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Leave it Andy, Webbo is revelling in being a self righteous prick and let's be fair, he could make a profession of it.
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Profession:
a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
I don't much care what it's called but :shrug:
So if you break the code of conduct of said profession. What happens then.
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Leave it Andy, Webbo is revelling in being a self righteous prick and let's be fair, he could make a profession of it.
Nice one danm.
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If the very small amount of traffic that wet climbing accounted for on bullet-hard grit easies did any damage I'd be all for calling out the practitioners. But it doesn't.
For a lot of people, protecting the rock or the Almscliff wall or whatever is really just a vehicle to join internet pile-ons, which these people very much enjoy. They get a warm feeling of superiority and schadenfreude. I'm sure it's the same sensation that was felt when putting someone in the stocks and pelting them with rotten vegetables.
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Forecast looks shite tomorrow, who fancies heading out and climbing some VD chimneys in big boots?
No one which is just one of the reasons why this a solution looking for a problem. We may be at the thin end of a wedge but the thick end was 50 years ago when people were doing diffs in the rain and polishing up routes in nailed boots (ok 70 years ago!), now we go to a wall. Routes change all the time and by and large they remain climbable. Any examples of these changes being the result of climbing in the damp?
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When was the last one of your profession was struck off.
I find it funny about how a conversation about inclusion in climbing at the lower grades this is the most elitest comment I've seen on the thread.
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Can't think of any examples of routes.
Reminds me of a recent Enormocast where Chris Kalous rails against the crag police imposing improntu bans on trad climbing in Indian Creek one day after it stopped raining. He was arguing that they were only climbing cracks and you couldn't break a crack cos its a void, not a hold. :-\ Anyway, I've never been there so couldn't possible comment!
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Reminds me of a recent Enormocast where Chris Kalous rails against the crag police imposing improntu bans on trad climbing in Indian Creek one day after it stopped raining. He was arguing that they were only climbing cracks and you couldn't break a crack cos its a void, not a hold. :-\ Anyway, I've never been there so couldn't possible comment!
I haven't heard it but I have been there and that sounds like a very questionable argument. Unless you have no issue with desert cracks getting wider and sandier with more flared pods even faster than they do anyway under normal climbing conditions. The Creek is not nearly as soft as a lot of desert rock (no one climbs in Zion the day after rain), but it's still much softer than the popular grit edges.
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Reminds me of a recent Enormocast where Chris Kalous rails against the crag police imposing improntu bans on trad climbing in Indian Creek one day after it stopped raining. He was arguing that they were only climbing cracks and you couldn't break a crack cos its a void, not a hold. :-\ Anyway, I've never been there so couldn't possible comment!
I haven't heard it but I have been there and that sounds like a very questionable argument. Unless you have no issue with desert cracks getting wider and sandier with more flared pods even faster than they do anyway under normal climbing conditions. The Creek is not nearly as soft as a lot of desert rock (no one climbs in Zion the day after rain), but it's still much softer than the popular grit edges.
I have climbed quite a lot in Indian Creek. Anyone who climbs the day after rain is suicidal. A lot of people do, and mostly survive because they do not fall (the climber is the first barrier). With my own eyes I have witnessed big stable features in decent rock break from body weight loaded on cams on the day after rain. According to a mate who lived in the creek for ten years it is impossible to guess which features are structurally undermined after rain.
Same goes for Wadi Rum. The day before we arrived a group of three french climbers broke their belay on wet rock, killing all three members of the team.
In Elbsandsteingebrige it is actually illegal to climb on wet rock (the climbing is in a state park).
I would not comment on harder types of sandstone than these as I have no experience.
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I guess the outdoor industry needs to take a look at itself and how it’s conducting business. If you’re allowing damage by virtue of the way you operate then something needs to change in my opinion.
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I guess the outdoor industryevery industry I can possibly think of needs to take a look at itself and how it’s conducting business. If you’re allowing damage by virtue of the way you operate then something needs to change in my opinion.
Fixed that for you. And I work in renewables.
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Reminds me of a recent Enormocast where Chris Kalous rails against the crag police imposing improntu bans on trad climbing in Indian Creek one day after it stopped raining.
I remember it being more a reaction to how people were going about raising these issues? From memory it sounded rather hostile.
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I guess the outdoor industry needs to take a look at itself and how it’s conducting business. If you’re allowing damage by virtue of the way you operate then something needs to change in my opinion.
It's easy to say that, but if you have any suggestions that don't involve significant financial loss and instability in an already pretty unstable 'industry' :sick:, as well as to the customer if they've travelled etc, I'd listen.
I actually think about this quite a lot, not because of wet grit, which is a peripheral issue for me because I rarely work in the Peak any more, but because of bad weather affecting activities in general. I don't really want to be out in the mountains in sideways rain all day, and it's not what people who have paid want either. If there's wiggle room to do something different or come to a mutually agreeable rearrangement with a client, I'll usually find it. Sometimes there just isn't.
As for allowing damage by the way you operate...well, as Barrows says, cast the first stone.
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Afterthought: to be fair, I can't speak for the conscientiousness of everyone, and I'm sure some providers could do better.
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Reminds me of a recent Enormocast where Chris Kalous rails against the crag police imposing improntu bans on trad climbing in Indian Creek one day after it stopped raining.
I remember it being more a reaction to how people were going about raising these issues? From memory it sounded rather hostile.
Yes, Chris definitely was railing against something, in one of his rants where he was joking about avoiding being cancelled. Yeah, if memory serves he was unhappy about how how other climbers were issuing bans on climbing when there hadn't really been much rain the previous day, ie. how much was too much to merit avoiding going climbing? Was a light sprinkling OK? Might have been the Runout podcast, can't remember.