UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: Hydraulic Man on June 09, 2014, 05:21:49 pm
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On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere
http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm)
I recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.
One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!
2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.
The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.
Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?
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One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!
2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.
The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.
Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?
Good question. In a state of indecision I would suggest.
Specifically all the new routes you mention are the work of Gary Gibson who is a law unto himself and it comes as no surprise that he has insensitively bolted them. The problem with glue-ins are they are much harder to remove than bolts with hangers. I was surprised how many were climbing at Garage Buttress when I drove past on Saturday despite how friable the routes are. Mind you they have to be an improvement on the Matlock quarry routes.
Talking more generally the number of people actively climbing lime trad outside the honeypot crags like High Tor are an increasingly rare breed who take gardening equipment just to access the base of some of the routes. The lack of repeats apart from making the routes overgrown also means that old paths disappear and de facto right of access is harder to argue for with landowners. This issue comes up at every other Paek meeting and whilst the much delayed Peal Lime guide may help a bit I'm not holding my breath that it will reverse the trend. Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.
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That sounds like an outstandingly shit idea.
If it's accepted that routes can be retroed just because they aren't currently climbed then you're changing the playing field completely and you can guarantee some choad will take it as Carte Blanche to start sticking bolts in anything they like.
"Oh it had weeds growing out of it and was dusty as fuck so obviously nobody's done it for ages....".
I'd prefer these routes that nobody is climbing to be left alone if it means that all the classic lime trad routes stay as they are. Go down the route you're suggesting and I can't see that they will.
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I'd prefer these routes that nobody is climbing to be left alone if it means that all the classic lime trad routes stay as they are. Go down the route you're suggesting and I can't see that they will.
Welcome to 2014, Jasper, and the thick end of the wedge. It's very sad. The support for widespread retrobolting is pretty limited but there seems to be a broad air of resignation that it is inevitable, as the same line gets trotted out that 'something needs to be done'. Every year more bolts go in the trad crags.
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Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.
Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?
Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?
I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.
I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?
Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.
Dunc
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Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.
Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?
Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?
I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.
I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?
Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.
Dunc
+1
Especially as a mid grade trad route in variable becomes a warmup sport route, and hence will get polished to shit. Doesn't seem a fair swap.
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Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?
Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?
I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.
I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?
Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.
Dunc
Obviously routes can be left unclimbed and they frequently are, go on any one star or less Lakes extreme and you'll see this for yourself. However, if you have rock that is not being used in an area where there is massive demand for rock it makes sense to consider redeveloping. I'm not talking about trad classics nor stuff on Chee Tor but there are plenty of routes that were climbed once by the first ascensionist, who had their moment of glory, but have barely been repeated but now we are expected treat said ascent as some sort of religious artefact. In many cases there is little of the original ascent that is worth protecting be it the ethics (probably not ground up, often involving fixed gear) or the finished product (shit, over grown route on dubious fixed gear). BTW I'm only talking about specific crap routes on limestone here, I think sea cliffs, mountain routes and grit have never been safer from the bolt and let's face it that's all anyone cares about, isn't it?
After all, UK ethics seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.
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After all, UK ethics seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.
+ 1
Peak lime is mainly pretty scratty, littered with dubious ironmongery and half of it's wet most of the year. The war on ethics is better fought elsewhere IMHO.
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Obviously routes can be left unclimbed and they frequently are, go on any one star or less Lakes extreme and you'll see this for yourself. However, if you have rock that is not being used in an area where there is massive demand for rock it makes sense to consider redeveloping. I'm not talking about trad classics nor stuff on Chee Tor but there are plenty of routes that were climbed once by the first ascensionist, who had their moment of glory, but have barely been repeated but now we are expected treat said ascent as some sort of religious artefact. In many cases there is little of the original ascent that is worth protecting be it the ethics (probably not ground up, often involving fixed gear) or the finished product (shit, over grown route on dubious fixed gear). BTW I'm only talking about specific crap routes on limestone here, I think sea cliffs, mountain routes and grit have never been safer from the bolt and let's face it that's all anyone cares about, isn't it?
After all, UK ethics seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.
This. There's lots more, but essentially this.
Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to the majority of climbers in the UK to go out to Rhoscolyn, abseil down a sea cliff and hammer a shit load of non stainless-steel into a trad route to facilitate an ascent. Then inform the uk climbing media that you've just climbed an E9 trad route and accept the inevitable plaudits, without any debate about the style and how it might be highly questionable. Then leave without a second thought to the fate of the rapidly rusting junk that you've left behind and that facilitated your 'hard trad' ascent? Wow. Really? Cue affirmation of our great ethic, 5 minutes of glory in the climbing media, and clueless punters thinking trad E9 is cool, because it says so on the web and in the rags.
No debate about that? Perhaps because all eyes are too heavily focused on keeping the wolves from the door of British trad climbing - or in other words, poor routes originally climbed in poor style with poor fixed gear which not even the most hairiest of shirt wearers seems to want to unenjoy now - I mean much rather keep these things in their preserved state (or nothing, by god) than have them altered and re-labelled 'SPORT'. I know we love our sense of history in this country but...
There's a real debate to be had about more than just retrobolting old pseudo-trad routes. Perhaps people are too dumbed-down from being spoon-fed sponsored climber's shite 24/7 via an unquestioning media to ask their own questions. Consider this controversial point - the media (you Duncan) have the ability to influence how some people think and behave; what would the likely impact be of adopting a more questioning attitude towards claims of 'significant' trad ascents if they were heavily pegged, especially sea cliff routes?
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to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.
Totally agree with that. I was taught that the same ethic was the rule on Cilan, but Craig Dorys is now headpoint central.
I do think though that this is part of a general ethical decline that the thick end of the bolting wedge has a lot to do with - see this from UKC today:
Yes indeed, I'm all for convenience, I hate long walk offs in tight rock shoes! If it's an Alpine route or a sea cliff, getting down (off the route or to the bottom of it) is part of the adventure. Whereas on UK inland crags getting down is just a nuisance
To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft. Once someone has gone to the crag with a drill to makes things a bit safer and more convenient for me the whole point is lost; the environment becomes an extension of the nannying state I'm trying to escape. I've not got so much interest in exploring that.
Probably worth a thread split though.
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Probably worth a thread split though.
Done
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"but Craig Dorys is now headpoint central"
Wowsers.... Is that really the case?
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To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft.
+1
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To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft.
Not sure if words like skill or craft accurately describe my climbing, but I totally agree with this too.
the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.
First I've heard of this. What a shame.
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Some really interesting points made above, and I didn't mean to single you out Shark, I have had these feelings towards many climbers' attitudes towards retrobolting for some time its just you wrote them down at a time I saw them... Can I ask what made you come to this conclusion?
Very interesting points about headpointing and the decline of the ground-up ethic, something I had never considered. More that some individuals wanted to pre-practice whilst others did not.
Personally I don't see the attraction of headpointing (except I am strangely drawn to Bloodlust at Shining Clough - Unlikely I'll ever go up there and headpoint it though).
However, I see a difference between bolting and headpointing, which is that one of them has an impact on other people's experience and the other to a much lesser or non-existant extent. Though I do agree we should be encouraging and trying to maintain areas with G-up ethics, I'm not going to be out there doing these cutting edge routes so don't feel like I can dictate in what style somebody climbs. Its their lives on the line and as long as you are happy with how you did it and didn't damage the rock or unnecessarily bolt it then I wouldn't feel comfortable telling anyone the way they climbed route x was wrong.
Johnny Brown's comment about trad climbing relying on your personal skill/craft to see you right through adventurous situations is something I have always agreed with but never actually articulated in such a clear way, even in my own head, I definitely agree with his sentiments though don't think it through as deeply. If I'm out trad climbing and I do a load of ace pitches and find a fixed lower-off meaning I don't have to do some crappy/loose/etc pitch and can instead have a chocolate biscuit sooner, then I am all for it - but I wouldn't want to see it everywhere - I didn't agree with the Millstone bolt but haven't done enough climbing there to feel like I could state my opinion strongly.
I guess at the very end of the day whilst climbing is basically the best thing ever, it's not the be all and end all?
Fingers crossed common sense and a good ethic will prevail for many years to come.
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Some really interesting points made above, and I didn't mean to single you out Shark, I have had these feelings towards many climbers' attitudes towards retrobolting for some time its just you wrote them down at a time I saw them... Can I ask what made you come to this conclusion?
I don't feel singled out and I'm not sure I'm entirely concluded but the talk at the last Peak Area meet about overgrown trad routes got me thinking - again. For a start it is happening. In addition to Garage Buttress parts of Stoney West, High Tor Right Wing and Deep Dale have been Gibsonised ie an industrial approach to cleaning and bolting. Some of them are new routes, some of the old routes will have the odd bolt in them and in some cases old trad routes get renamed as new sport routes. Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.
To take an example there is a buttress right of Central Buttress which I climbed on in the mid 80's. Back then the routes had been recently put up so where clean and one of which (Scoopy Little Number) was excellent. A buttress like that could be cleaned again and if bolted would stay clean through traffic with a range of sport climbs in the 5-6b range. Why not? It probably doesn't even register with most people that it even exists.
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Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.
There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.
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Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.
There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.
How many of those not going and doing the routes are actively doing so until such time as they are on form/ready for the challenge? Are you? Lets have a short and quick show of hands?
Or is it just ignorance due to lack of guidebooks covering the areas (as not everyone will know where to find the information online)? Would the long awaited BMC guide rejuvenate these long forgotten areas? Does the most recent Rockfax cover all these areas in technicolour glory or focus on the existing honeypots (don't own a copy)?
I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me; b) haven't a clue where the majority are not owning any Rockfax guides beyond the old Peak Bouldering one. I've the 1987 Stoney Guide (and the 2004 From Horseshoe to Harpur Hill), and over the last few years my forays on to Peak Limestone trad have been at High Tor, Stoney and Ravensdale and one day in Dovedale.
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There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...
Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.
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There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...
Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.
I didn't say people not doing the routes, which is the vast majority if the population of the earth, are doing do deliberately as that would be absurd. However there are some people who will know about the routes but have no interest in climbing retrobolted trad routes, who unless they either feel motivated enough to moan online or chop the bolts, won't get heard in this debate.
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Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.
There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.
Are they simply not voting or just selecting the pain au raisin / pink Anasazi option. Voting against could involve removing the bolts or raising the issue at BMC meetings or on the forums or best of all going out and cleaning and climbing all those neglected trad routes (use them or lose them?).
At the moment there is largely a vacuum between (principally) Gary and Nature (Gary loves a vacuum). We have a set of guidelines (http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2887) but no overall position as such on how we want to use all that currently unclimbed rock despite the popularity of sport routes.
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I have no views on shitty chossy Gibson routes, but +1 on what Pete said about putting new pegs into sea cliffs being total bullshit. I was surprised Hazel didn't get more shit for that. I don't trad climb nowadays due to an unhealthy obsession with sport climbing, but when I did I always thought pegs on sea cliffs sucked - I remember looking at a crag in the Pembroke North guide that was full of *** E5s and 6s, then realising they all had about 10 pegs in from over a decade before so if you wanted to go do them in their guidebook state you'd have to hammer new pegs in every few years. Better to take them out and have it as a E7 or bolt the fucker if you want a clipup (the former being a much better option).
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I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;
There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too. ;)
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Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?
Does every bit of rock have to be climbed?
I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more.
I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?
Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.
Dunc
Been cogitating on this. I don't think it is good to let nature take the route back unless the nature involves protected fauna/flora.
Brambles and ivy don't get my sympathy vote and Nature doesn't care - in fact Nature doesn't exist except as a human construct. Lagers can elaborate..
If trad climbers aren't cleaning certain buttresses and climbing them (and in many cases haven't done so for decades) their moral authority with respect to what happens with those buttresses is diminished.
It is dog in a mangerish to effectively say I have no intention on playing my trad games on those buttresses but I'm not letting you play your sport games on them either.
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There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...
Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.
I didn't say people not doing the routes, which is the vast majority if the population of the earth, are doing do deliberately as that would be absurd. However there are some people who will know about the routes but have no interest in climbing retrobolted trad routes, who unless they either feel motivated enough to moan online or chop the bolts, won't get heard in this debate.
Lets rephrase my question then (which was trying to tactfully ask a similar thing)...
Of those who know about the routes in question, how many feel motivated enough to go out and climb them in their current state?
I had a think about this general bolting debate on the cycle to work...
How many people climb the trad routes in Gordale? On the log-book (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=605) there are loads of E3-E6 6a-6b *** routes with a light smattering of logged ascents* compared to the bolted sports routes there. The same is true of Malham (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=610) or Kilnsey (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=608), The former has tons of 7's with hundreds of logged ascents but with very few ascents of the trad routes on the wings (the one place I have climbed at Malham 'cause I can't climb F7's) the same is true at Kilnsey where the sports 7's all have more logged ascents than the **/*** trad E3-E6 6a-6b routes.
If you can climb F7's you should in theory be able to climb English 6a-6b routes, but that doesn't appear to be what is happening. People are voting with their feet and climb bolted routes for whatever reason (probably they don't want to stick their neck out on dirty routes with dodgy old fixed gear). Not picking on anyone at all but way of example, why is Shark working Oak when there are all these great adventurous trad routes he could be scaring himself silly on, preserving the adventure using his skill and craft to float through the found environment? One reason might be that Shark has already climbed them and is after a harder challenge, which is fine, but then why not go for the harder trad routes? (no need to explain yourself, you're doing what you want and thats fine)
What about Ravens Tor? I'm not intimately familiar with its history, but weren't a lot of those routes originally done as aid, then freed on the pegs? Then someone decided "this is dumb, those pegs are shit, lets put some bolts in and create a sports crag". Just because the resulting routes are high in the grade scale is not at all a justification for doing this there and not at other easier crags.
That Gary Gibson is bolting some lines that weigh in at the lowly 5's and 6's is neither here nor there the principle is the same.
There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too. ;)
I know, I found out on the tottering choss of Mealystopholes.
* Obviously there is no way of assessing data which is not available.
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Nice to see that this thread has been split, as the usual suspects like to turn an informative post about the Peak Bolt Fund (for middle to high grade SPORT climbs and required access lower offs)) into a debate about bolting trad routes or Gary's antics.
On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere
http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm)
I recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.
One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!
2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either.
The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag.
Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?
Sure there maybe the odd bolt around the start of Matrix but looking at the new topo on the forthcoming BMC guide there does seem to be a reasonable separation between all the lines mentioned.
You could go out of your way and use side runners off the bolts on the first section of Fly Catcher (along with Andy's old bolts on Virgin) but the top is not the same bit of rock that you think it is.
The new 6a+ pitch on the far right is noway part of the 4b 1st pitch of Aquiline. That is still buried under dense ivy.
I know people rejoice in slagging Gary off but 3 or 4 of his routes on Garage are actually quite good even though the rest are just numbers on his tally.
If fact some of them were already Gary's own trad routes that got overgrown and unrecorded since the last definitive guide.
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My point of view is that things like the Millstone bolt, and the retro-bolting of White Gold are in part a symptom of a collective inability to deal pragmatically with the issues at hand. In the vacuum created by unresolved polarised debates people take it upon themselves to act as they see fit. As often as not this produces outcomes clearly at odds with the majority view. I’ve argued the point more than once at BMC meetings that if the room can’t agree to any proactive measures then they shouldn’t be overly surprised if some lonewolf goes and does something outrageous, which at best will need undoing and at worst might ruin access.
At the time when I was actively re-bolting sport routes and attending BMC meetings I attempted to test the local consent process to see if it was capable of making a reasonable decision. The answer got was basically that it couldn’t. I got neither a clear yay or nay to what I thought was as strong a case for retro bolting a route as you are likely to get. The route was on a crag which was predominantly trad but with a lot of old fixed gear too and the odd proper sport route. The route relied totally on old pegs, all of which I’d established were either highly questionable or no longer present/intact but still blocking up the placement. I’d checked for alternative placements and found nothing useful. Whilst checking the route I’d also cleaned it of loose rock and in the process removed a fair proportion of its holds. It was essentially a pseudo sport route of about 7a+ which had deteriorated into a very serious unquantifiably dangerous route of at least 7b+. What made it a special case was that it had been a three star route and cleared of its loose rock it looked like it would deserve it again. To my mind the route was good enough and was sport like enough from inception to justify retro-bolting, especially given that the climbing had got substantially harder and that literal like for like peg re-placement was not possible (I did try to replace the pegs but it was impossible). It struck me that if the meeting couldn’t give the green light (or even give a clear no) to the retro-ing of this route, then it was fair to assume that whatever else it may profess it was in reality incapable of ever agreeing to a retro bolt. Such an absolutist position I think is neither sustainable or the best way to protect trad ethics.
Call me pro-bolt if you like, though I don’t think reducing the matter to a false dichotomy really helps anyone. I don’t think there are many instances where there’s a case to retrobolt, certainly not the sort of wholesale job that Shark seems to be hinting at, but I do think it would be good if the green light was given where a case was strong, firstly because a few good routes would be revived but mostly because it would take away the primary excuse from the lonewolf.
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I'm guessing this was one of the E6s near The Alien on Central buttress? I don't recall any success in keeping the debate focused on one route. Not helped by Seb's bolts effectively retro bolting St Paul, the classic E3. In an ideal world your bolts would have been approved and Seb's might not, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't encourage inappropriate bolt spread when it's already in progress...
Perhaps a better approach would be that folk like yourself and Kris would get approved by the area committee as responsible persons, and be given carte Blanche to do as you like, acknowledging that you'd be better informed than the rest of the meeting (bar the chair as a rule!). But then you guys are never the problem so it's a bit pointless... Did you bolt it or what?
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A sort of designated competent person status? Maybe attainable after 37 consecutive BMC area meets / or 3 hours debate with Ken Wilson / 14 gallons of tea drunk at the crag in a single winter bouldering season?
It seems to me the only justification for new bolts on historically trad crags is as like for like replacement eg peg > bolt on In Bulk = good, Pauliac = bad (not that Seb will thank me for that view and I didn't raise that with him when he did it). My reasoning is that eventually there'll be drift till the trad gear is the anomaly and eventually dispensed with altogether, for all that the new bolted routes may be great.
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If trad climbers aren't cleaning certain buttresses and climbing them (and in many cases haven't done so for decades) their moral authority with respect to what happens with those buttresses is diminished.
As with most bolting discussions, you've got to be careful about context and precedent here. In the context of Cheedale, I'm not in agreement but I'm not outraged. But there are plenty of crags (or routes) where it would be outrageous.
E.g. Ninth life. It would get loads more ascents if you bolted it. Not because bolting it would make it better, but because bolting it makes it more accessible. Suddenly many more folk are able to climb it. I think you've got to be careful defining that as 'popularity' and thereby claiming a mandate.
Take the same principle elsewhere and of course lots of trad routes that are special because of the massive challenge they represent. You could easily turn the Longhope route (only 4 ascents in forty years) into Scotland's answer to Squamish's Grand wall, a popular trad-lite big-wall 'adventure'. And, if there's a God, you'd go to hell.
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What about Ravens Tor? ... Just because the resulting routes are high in the grade scale is not at all a justification for doing this there and not at other easier crags.
Funnily enough that was one of the main justifications at the time. The old wedge again.
My long-term worry of the wedge is not the creeping spread on poor crags, it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.
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it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.
I honestly think that's already happened with the upsurge in climbing walls, certainly in Northampton, miles from rock and a fairly new wall.
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That's the Climbing Wall Generation that the 80s/90s mags warned would be unleashed to wreak havoc on our crags.
Interesting looking at Rockfax (I know it's non-definitive and catering for a certain type), a search shows they list over 800 grade 6 problems in the Peak (and that was before Stoney West or Garage Buttress) yet only 575 in the more-or-less equivalent E1-E4 range. Quite sad that sport has become so dominant in such a relatively short time. And that folk will climb any piece of choss just because it's bolted.
Has there ever been much of a trad lime scene though? Even 25 years ago in Matlock, Dovedale, Beeston it was rare to see anyone else around. The only easy sport option then would have been Horseshoe, was everyone already forming an orderly queue?
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it's that we'll end up with a majority who don't understand the worth of climbing without bolts.
I honestly think that's already happened with the upsurge in climbing walls, certainly in Northampton, miles from rock and a fairly new wall.
Theres a significant portion of people who would consider themselves "climbers" who don't understand the worth of climbing with a rope.
I'm not being critical of that choice, but quite simply climbing is different things to different people, and my view of what constitutes climbing is no more superior than anyone else's.
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I'm guessing this was one of the E6s near The Alien on Central buttress? I don't recall any success in keeping the debate focused on one route. Not helped by Seb's bolts effectively retro bolting St Paul, the classic E3. In an ideal world your bolts would have been approved and Seb's might not, but it's hard to argue that it wouldn't encourage inappropriate bolt spread when it's already in progress...
Perhaps a better approach would be that folk like yourself and Kris would get approved by the area committee as responsible persons, and be given carte Blanche to do as you like, acknowledging that you'd be better informed than the rest of the meeting (bar the chair as a rule!). But then you guys are never the problem so it's a bit pointless... Did you bolt it or what?
It was the big E5 right of Behemoth. Yes the specific request was somewhat lost in the overall discussion. This was part of my frustration, people ask you to get things approved at meetings and then when you raise them you don’t get an answer because the question gets lost in the wider debate it creates.
I didn’t bolt it. In part because it was one of the chair’s routes and he didn’t seem swayed. Though I think he would be if he ever abed the line.
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Last time I went there were bolts all over that bit, if it was one new sport route it takes a very wandering line.
Has there ever been much of a trad lime scene though? Even 25 years ago in Matlock, Dovedale, Beeston it was rare to see anyone else around.
Interesting. I don't do as much as I'd like, probably 4 or 5 days each summer. The only time I remember being at a crag without other teams present was at Central buttress. I think the decline in popularity is much overplayed, partly due to the fact if you are at Chee tor the Cornice is often rammed, and partly because folk seem to have forgotten that crags like Chee tor don't clean themselves every spring.
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Seb did put up a bolted 7c just left of Behemoth and replaced pegs with bolts on the next line left again. The route in question is right of Behemoth.
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I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;
There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too. ;)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=245130 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=245130)
Indeed: try this or severe just left. It was a year or so back when I led it 45m of climbing where no hold was solid and where I found no reliable gear (the tree reached with relief and which was dead but solid 15 years before had to turned to papier mache). Never have I been so scared on 3c terrain nor grasped brambles so lovingly when I reached the top. Low grade peak limestone away from the cute dolomitic craglets is either rare as hens teeth (and usually polished to death) or much more likely a potential sandbag death trap.
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Seb did put up a bolted 7c just left of Behemoth and replaced pegs with bolts on the next line left again. The route in question is right of Behemoth.
Pretty sure there were newish bolts right of Behemoth too.
It struck me that if the meeting couldn’t give the green light (or even give a clear no) to the retro-ing of this route, then it was fair to assume that whatever else it may profess it was in reality incapable of ever agreeing to a retro bolt
I think a fairer summary would be that the first ascensionist was in the room, wasn't keen, and everyone else deferred to him. After all, only he and you had been on the thing, and the premise is/was that the FA's opinion should be respected.
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Yes quite right, it was a flawed choice of testcase in that respect. I was however oversimplifying the matter in the previous post. At the same time as asking about said route I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes, but though my recollection isn't totally clear I don't think this got any real support either. I could have gone and done this myself anyway but I'd come to the meeting with some hope of support for the task. It was a while back now and I may have a skewed memory of it, maybe the idea would be better supported these days.
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I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes
No, I think that was supported but 'twas a bit vague who would do it and how.
For myself I went twice and did a few routes - concluding that retrobolting had already started affecting routes like St. Paul, but that some of the harder routes like Alien were still fine. I've got a vague feeling that someone had suggested retroing Alien and having done it was strongly against. I'd not oppose the retroing of some other routes if indeed reliant on pegs and done sensitively, but the Alien experience made me a bit wary - I'd be inclined to take a couple out before I put any in..
There was a lot of total choss at either end which I would prefer to be left than turned into shit sport routes. Access here remains pretty sensitive too.
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Worth noting that the NW area have successfully voted at their last meeting, on the kind of specific proposals Jon mentioned getting no traction with in the Peak. So, it can be done - I think you just need to get things framed and set up for a vote rather than a long debate. They voted no to retrobolting, and yes for lower off's and selective replacement of existing pegs with bolt runners, for Lester Mill Quarry, and yes to lower off's for the coal measure face at Anglezarke.
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I also proposed a crag wide assessment of the state of pegs/bolts on all the routes
No, I think that was supported but 'twas a bit vague who would do it and how.
For myself I went twice and did a few routes - concluding that retrobolting had already started affecting routes like St. Paul, but that some of the harder routes like Alien were still fine. I've got a vague feeling that someone had suggested retroing Alien and having done it was strongly against. I'd not oppose the retroing of some other routes if indeed reliant on pegs and done sensitively, but the Alien experience made me a bit wary - I'd be inclined to take a couple out before I put any in..
There was a lot of total choss at either end which I would prefer to be left than turned into shit sport routes. Access here remains pretty sensitive too.
I had a thought through and specific proposal which got lost and diluted in the debate. Perhaps I lacked a loud enough voice and sharp enough elbows but the point remains I left feeling that I could have acheived more by just getting on with doing something rather than trying to seek prior approval.
With all respect St Paul and Alien are not representative of the crag as they are just about the most popular routes for the simple reason that they are the least representative of the crags problems. I agree that they could both probably have done with gear removing rather than replacing, but assuming this can be extrapolated much onto the rest of the crag is like drawing conclusions about ground erosion at Stanage after doing a couple of problems on Count's Buttress.
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Fair enough. As I said, only you and Neil really understood the details, hence it was never going to make an simple vote. I'm just keen to point out that the process itself is not fatally flawed as some pro-bolters would like to suggest. We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.
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We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.
Doesn't seem backwards to me, it seems eminently sensible in that its considering each rock type and venue therein in its own right.
This seems to be (at least part of) what Bonjoy is getting at.
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We've had the Millstone lower-off debate twice, with a well-informed crowd who voted overwhelmingly against. Which apparently makes us 'backward'.
Who are you quoting ?
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No I dont want to give the impression that the process is broken. As Dan points out there are examples of where it has worked fine. The reason for my post was to make the point that if the BMC area meetings are to work as arbitrators it is worth everyone involved making an effort to say yes to the most reasonable proposals. That way they prove their efficacy and validity, which in turn helps to protect the crags from random actions. It's worth remembering because committees are often by nature poor at making decisions which veer from pure preservation of the status quo and some effort is required to overcome this.
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Nice one Chris - that's good news. I also like the idea of just replacing the situ gear, as hanging on for grim death fiddling in wires was always part of the experience on these routes as well.
just saying.
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I find it interesting that the climbing wall generation that was tipped to spearhead the retobolting, convenience climbing revolution actually seem to do virtually no bolting at all, presumably because unless its got bolts in already, they don't know how to rig the routes.
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Maybe they are too used to the convenience of having it all handed to them? Bolts, lower-offs, graded, cleaned?
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Good debate guys.
The Malham right wing / upper tier trad routes are very good as inland limestone goes. Much better rock and lines than the polished bollox sport below. Gordale trad seems a different kettle of fish.
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Given these were the only areas I accessed I daresay there is plenty more of this bullshit to discover.
Yep
Northerners can't climb ** E5 6a
This climb is in 2 logbooks, and on no wishlists.
Has been retrobolted presumably by mistake and even had a new name proposed. Grade is about 7a. Pumped out trying to clip the last bolt which seems in the totally wrong place. Next go I just missed it out completely - its harder to clip than to just do the moves. Looks like it might have been quite pokey as a trad route (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=261235)
This route is on a clean bit of rock BTW and looked like it could be climbed without cleaning when I walked under it last year. The bolting of routes further right made total sense but not this. Its a Paul Mitchell route. He is going to go apeshit.
Edit: Gary's topo (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Stoney%20West%20Topo.htm) shows the 7a as being adjacent to Northerners Cant Climb. What's the betting that the bolts can be clipped from it?
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Northerners is/was a great route.....
If thats the case then those bolts need to come out. There are a few that interfere with Spiron as well.
Neither are trade routes but where does it end??
Gary was given permission to bolt some of the trad routes on the right hand side of the crag, but then proceeded to rename them or forget they exist.
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"This is in fact Norther's Can't Climb which has now been retro bolted"
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=325925 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=325925)
Doesn't sound like it was Gary's doing either...
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For anyone confused Shark's reply is to a comment I made in another thread here:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24148.msg452914.html#msg452914 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24148.msg452914.html#msg452914)
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I can't comment on the useage of the trad routes in the Peak as I virtually never climb down there any more, but I can say that in Yorks the routes are still being done. I still see people at Goredale on the more exciting pitches and the same can be said for Kilnsey. The difference is that they don't get the same volume of ascents as they did in the eighties. They haven't gone back to nature completely, but they are a bit dusty as they would be at the beginning of any season. More traffic would be great but it's not happening at present.
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This felt like such an important topic, my reply is becoming a blog post.
Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis, using a system which is inclusive of all routes, climbers and dispositions.
Maybe the current system of approval needs re-considering?
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http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=240425 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=240425)
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Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis...
I agree with this (not to say we can't have general principles for a crag), but have no idea what the bit after the comma means.
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You can retro bolt if you fill in an equal opportunity questionnaire first.
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You can retro bolt if you fill in an equal opportunity questionnaire first.
:rtfm: health and safety assessment first
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Surely bolting should be on a route-by-route basis, using a system which is inclusive of all routes, climbers and dispositions.
I quite agree.
Maybe the current system of approval needs re-considering?
Any ideas?
I think we have a decent system (the current Peak area guidelines were a fine effort with input from lots of folk), and I'm not sure how it could be improved.
The main problem with it is that unfortunately getting the those keenest to retrobolt are least keen to engage in debate about their actions - because it requires effort and they may not get the result they want. Easier to just do what they want.
The other problem is that we've agreed route-by-route is the best system. Now getting more than a couple of folk to an open meeting that actually know the route is not always possible. So you don't always get an informed debate, or you get two people who know the route but have opposite opinions.
I'm a big fan of doing stuff like this online, as it gives more chance for folk to get involved, more chance to get informed opinion etc. But not everyone agrees, and I daresay it wouldn't engage the bolters much either. Plus if you take a vote it is much more susceptible to rigging by a rent-a-mob. So I guess an online debate leading up to vote at a meeting which interested parties can either attend or send a statement/proxy. Which isn't far off what happened for the Millstone bolt.
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I was going to suggest an internet ballot system based on BMC membership numbers or similar.
i.e. get the wholething hosted on the bmc site, and each voter enters his/her bmc membership number or a reference.
Having a show of hands vote at a meeting is great, but if you wanted to be more diplomatic, a discrete individual voting system would be a better option in my eyes. Similar to a forum poll.
It isn't like those who bolt are unreasonable. Infact, some are a blessing in the sense that at least they know what they are doing. Imagine someone clueless like me chosing to retrobolt something... It would be a mess. But this is all material for that blog post.
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I have pasted and edited this from conditions report as no one is biting.
Anybody know about the new (pointless so i'm told) belay between the top of Free Monster and BD?
There are four new routes left of Thatcher Years with what looks like a mix of galvanized mild steel bolts and hangers.
Studying the last reliable guide they look to be mostly new lines with a bit of straightened out trad retroed.
This has nothing to do with GG Simon, i've already asked.
I am not particularly bothered about the ethics here, it's the use of crap gear I take issue with.
Perhaps the person doing this used cheap gear cos they were half expecting their bolts to get chopped.
If these routes become accepted and worthwhile will it then be the job of a bolt fund to re-equip them.
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I was going to suggest an internet ballot system based on BMC membership numbers or similar.
So armchair climbers from east sussex can out number the few folks who are active in the area and vote in their masses to bolt everything ?
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I have pasted and edited this from conditions report as no one is biting.
Anybody know about the new (pointless so i'm told) belay between the top of Free Monster and BD?
There are four new routes left of Thatcher Years with what looks like a mix of galvanized mild steel bolts and hangers.
Studying the last reliable guide they look to be mostly new lines with a bit of straightened out trad retroed.
This has nothing to do with GG Simon, i've already asked.
I am not particularly bothered about the ethics here, it's the use of crap gear I take issue with.
Perhaps the person doing this used cheap gear cos they were half expecting their bolts to get chopped.
If these routes become accepted and worthwhile will it then be the job of a bolt fund to re-equip them.
sorry kris - haven't been to the cornice yet this year so cant comment. Agree though that using shit bolts is a pain in the arse.
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I have been on free monster. We haven't been using the top chains and have been dropping onto the last bolt... The bolts for the chain are high and left and cause the rope to rub over the last step in the good which isn't too good
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These must be recent as I was there at the start of the month and didn't notice new routes or lower off. All of which sound like a bad idea to me.
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On't'other channel Mick Ryan is claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed with no attempt at consultation... smells like his all too common hot air but as a matter of interest what routes on peak lime do folk here think fall into that category? (like the recent case of Northerners would).
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On't'other channel Mick Ryan is claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed with no attempt at consultation... smells like his all too common hot air but as a matter of interest what routes on peak lime do folk here think fall into that category? (like the recent case of Northerners would).
I guess there's probably a few on the main sport crags. Some occupy a grey area where they were originally done with a lot of old fixed gear as pseudo sport routes, that gear rotted and the routes were retroed. Or were poor routes with indirect lines that were partially cannibalised by a direct route. I can think of a few possible candidates that have become popular routes after being retroed that nobody has made a fuss about for many years so I'm disinclined to name them at this point.
Darl has already been mentioned, and that would be one example where pegs and other fixed gear was replaced with bolts, which is why the bolting on it is sporadic and the first bolt is so high.
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Thanks,
He was in a funny mood even for him, my charity work for guidebooks that sit in a warehouse in Leicester ffs.
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So you came over here to tell the big boys about it? Ah, bless.
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Rather, I think O/W was hoping to get some facts to back up or deny the assertion that a number of Peak limestone trad routes have been retrobolted or have had their character changed by the prescence of nearby (i.e clippable) bolts on adjacent routes. Whichever side of the fence you are on, it seems worth finding out the truth so that the debate is informed. What nobody needs is another bolt war with routes being messed up with unnecessary bolt placements and/or chopping. As someone looking in from the periphery it seems like we appear to be sliding ever more towards this sort of nonsense?
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So you came over here to tell the big boys about it? Ah, bless.
Yeah that'll learn him. :)
Mick is right my detailed knowledge of the early days of many of the grey area bolt lines is not ideal, but I was seriously interested if there were genuinely dozens of retroed important routes like Northerners or say Darl hiding out there. Given how upset people rightly get about bolt encroachment in recent years it was about getting a clear view. Folk can message me if they dont want public details, I understand the sensitivities now.
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claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed
'Claimbing' - is that what Rich Simpson used to do?
I guess it all hinges on your interpretation of the word 'important'. As ever discussing generalities here can go on forever, whereas a few examples will quickly get to some facts.
Edit: having read the thread in question, unless Mick has edited his post (entirely possible) it seems 'important' was Offwidth's addition. Without the word important its hardly a contentious statement.
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reading that thread put me in mind of something (beyond why I don't visit the site anymore).... :-\
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RN4r-zjcqyQ/UC2Fme1Ku1I/AAAAAAAAA20/rjw4YL6v5gs/s1600/michael_o_leary_ry_1208663i1.jpg)
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claimbing there are dozens of important peak lime trad routes retroed
'Claimbing' - is that what Rich Simpson used to do?
No it's simply old age and fading eyesight alongside increasing tablet use: I need glasses. The "important" word was in the original thread Mick responded to with his dozens claim. My meaning isn't super strict, just routes likely to cause a big fuss if everyone knew (like Northerners). Most of my knowledge comes from the bolt complaints in the history section of the Wye guide. I've still never climbed a peak bolt route but done vegetated, loose and nice trad ones.
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I've still never climbed a peak bolt route but done vegetated, loose and nice trad ones.
I find this hard to comprehend!? Have you been saving them all (literally all) for the onsight?
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I've done lots. I wouldn't describe any as a three star experience, a handful might scrape two (if historical interest counts), the majority none. A fair few would have made better trad routes, if such a fate didn't sentence them to dirt and obscurity, whilst shite filler in bolt routes sprout in the 'gaps' either side. Now I may not be a fan of artificial climbing experiences generally, but knowing Offwidth a little he isn't missing much.
Yes I am aware there is better sport climbing elsewhere. I have done some of it.
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:lol: you're a sour fucker sometimes :P There are some brilliant unforgettable(y polished) experiences to be had on Peak sport, for those that don't need to get their feel-good from kidding themselves that they're 'journeying through an unaltered environmentTM'.
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List your top ten then.
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I think the words were "found environment"
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If your point is 'how much have you done in the peak' - about 15 routes and failed on about five more. I enjoyed flashing Brachiation Dance and failing on Powerplant, I thought Clarion Call was decent; Sardine good and the hard routes on the Cornice are obviously good for people who like hard limestone - not you, fair enough. I'd happily climb there more if I didn't have a better area to play in right on my doorstep.
Top ten? - Relative to what???
Relative to Yosemite?
The Bugs?
Squamish?
Ceuse?
Buoux?
Catalunya?
... ad infinitum.
Yeah, you're right - in that context peak sport is completely shit, why bother? Why don't people climb sport somewhere else, like Malham or Wales - but hang on.. they're both shit compared to Spain; and what about that mega cave in Norway?... or China. Better move to the place with the best climbing. And in that context peak trad could be thought of as equally shit if you wanted to be negative - why don't you save your money and go somewhere good like Fairhead, or Pabbay, or Yosemite or or or...
But what's the point of being a negative cnut by regularly saying how shit something is that a lot of others get enjoyment, challenge and satisfaction from - and which by necessity is their local option?
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I both enjoy climbing peak limestone and appreciate that in objective terms its all shit.
None of it passes the "would you drive there from North Wales" test let alone the "would you fly across the world to climb there" test.
It is both possible for Brachiation Dance to be fun and not very good.
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I've still never climbed a peak bolt route but done vegetated, loose and nice trad ones.
I find this hard to comprehend!? Have you been saving them all (literally all) for the onsight?
It sort of happened by accident. When the time came I might have been visiting peak quarries with my mates I was too busy helping on guidebook or website stuff. I find sport climbing at my ability level completely underwhelming and forgettable so it was never top of my list but have done enough in Spain, France and the US (and indoor of course) to judge it's not just a view based on lack of traffic. Most of my sports ascents are onsight flashes but I don't save them for that, I just climb as far as I can and fall and rest if I need to.
As for trad I've been lucky enough to do plenty across the world, including a fair bit of Californian classic granite to 5.9: amazing long routes in stunning surroundings but still I can get completely absorbed in a days bouldering or trad climbing on my local grit or lime.
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Apparently there are 10+ lines bolted at Central Buttress W.C.J now?* Anybody got any info/been down recently?
*Source: facefuck
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A few of the trad routes have been cleaned up and re equipped and there are some new sport routes.
Someone told me about it yesterday as I was walking out of Chee Dale.
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I both enjoy climbing peak limestone and appreciate that in objective terms its all shit.
None of it passes the "would you drive there from North Wales" test let alone the "would you fly across the world to climb there" test.
It is both possible for Brachiation Dance to be fun and not very good.
Agree entirely, though I'd submit Brachiation is actually quite good.
Though at Offwidth's grades I don't think Peak sport has much to offer, it's a bit like MacDonalds - shit but we've all done it. My point was that I think it's admirable Offwidth has resisted following the sheep to the shit.
Apparently there are 10+ lines bolted at Central Buttress W.C.J now?
Interesting. Good to hear the trad routes have been cleaned, but 're-equipping' needs clarifying!
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I both enjoy climbing peak limestone and appreciate that in objective terms its all shit.
None of it passes the "would you drive there from North Wales" test let alone the "would you fly across the world to climb there" test.
It is both possible for Brachiation Dance to be fun and not very good.
Agree entirely, though I'd submit Brachiation is actually quite good.
Though at Offwidth's grades I don't think Peak sport has much to offer, it's a bit like MacDonalds - shit but we've all done it. My point was that I think it's admirable Offwidth has resisted following the sheep to the shit.
Apparently there are 10+ lines bolted at Central Buttress W.C.J now?
Interesting. Good to hear the trad routes have been cleaned, but 're-equipping' needs clarifying!
I think some pegs have been replaced.
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There was a brand new shiny peg protecting the crux of Alien when we climbed it on Thursday evening.
As the crux was quite hard its presence was gratefully appreciated. As it is backing up / replacing an existing peg this would seem to be a sensible action.
The route was good but hard.
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My point was that I think it's admirable Offwidth has resisted following the sheep to the shit
As I said: poor performance, lack of motivation and plenty to distract is hopefully not the most admirable feature in my very busy climbing life (nice of you all the same).
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:lol: you're a sour fucker sometimes :P
Not sure where to put this but I recently came across this gem of a quote from the Luck Based Scrittle People's Champion himself:
Adam Long - on 14 May 2007
In reply to Toby Dunn:
I thought Moonwalk was very average, worth one star if that.
:o :o :o Compared to the handful of two star peak limestone sport routes. Shocking.