UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: spidermonkey09 on August 06, 2018, 12:52:53 pm
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Not sure which forum to put this in, but if anyone is interested. My boss made me aware this morning!
I work in and around private equity and would suggest that this is likely to be the precursor to an increase in prices in a few months, another wall opening somewhere and a more corporate feel to the locations to get the punters in. Be interesting to check back in a year!
On a side note, it has been interesting to see the impact of private equity investment on Alpkit over the last few years. I certainly think their prices have gone up while the quality has decreased.
Yes, I am mildly cynical about my job!
https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/northeast/nvm-backs-indoor-climbing-brand?utm_source=northeast_newsletter&utm_campaign=northeast_news_tracker&utm_medium=deals_article
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Interesting reading about the alpkit investment. Is it what's mentioned here?https://www.eatswoodadvertiser.co.uk/news/finance-boost-for-thriving-newthorpe-firm-alpkit-1-8911016
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Exactly
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:offtopic: :sorry:
Agree with you RE: Alpkit.
Used to be my go-to for bits of kit that you didn't use very often and didn't want to pay full wack for.
Now the prices are pretty much the same as normal brands it seems pointless to go for a brand you know don't include the nice little "extras" like ripstop, taped zips etc.
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Shame they couldn't offer the public / users some options, rather than an equity company who will definitely want a return on their investment.
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:offtopic: :sorry:
Agree with you RE: Alpkit.
Used to be my go-to for bits of kit that you didn't use very often and didn't want to pay full wack for.
Now the prices are pretty much the same as normal brands it seems pointless to go for a brand you know don't include the nice little "extras" like ripstop, taped zips etc.
Similar sentiments about Alpkit - they also seemed to expand their product lines really quickly, which is something I usually take as a bad sign for quality.
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I was always under the impression that Alpkit was always just a "brand" i.e. they just took ready manufactured goods by others, and had it labelled with their name. I've often seen identical products in TK Maxx etc with a different company branding (some of which may even be the manufacturer).
Hence product lines expand and contract quickly based on what they can get in at a low cost.
I could be wrong though.
Likewise though, not bought something from them for ages.
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I was always under the impression that Alpkit was always just a "brand" i.e. they just took ready manufactured goods by others, and had it labelled with their name.
They definitely used to, their stoves were re-branded fire maple stoves.
Koro: https://www.alpkit.com/products/koro
Blade: http://www.fire-maple.com/en/productsinfo.aspx?pid=8
Their pads were all UK made I think. Their bikes seem well received.
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I was always under the impression that Alpkit was always just a "brand" i.e. they just took ready manufactured goods by others, and had it labelled with their name. I've often seen identical products in TK Maxx etc with a different company branding (some of which may even be the manufacturer).
My old Filo says 'Designed by Alpkit in the UK - Made in China' on the label, and they defintely make a few things in the UK (https://www.alpkit.com/develop/uk-made-climbing-packs)
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(My sister works in the alpkit factory, so im probably a bit biased).
My understanding is that they design and make some stuff in the UK (pads, rucksacks, probably some other bits that im not thinking of), design some stuff that gets manufactured elsewhere and then re-brand other stuff (stoves, headtorches etc.)
Personally I think the quality is much the same. Im not a fan of the design of their more recent pads (wtf are those bungee cords?!), but the bags are pretty decent and good value imo.
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I thought the Depot had private investment and this was how they afforded to build such amazing walls (manchester). Does anyone know if this is true?
I like the idea of share options but may not generate the same kind of capital?
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Not sure which forum to put this in, but if anyone is interested. My boss made me aware this morning!
I work in and around private equity and would suggest that this is likely to be the precursor to an increase in prices in a few months, another wall opening somewhere and a more corporate feel to the locations to get the punters in. Be interesting to check back in a year!
You can see the potential investment case. Growing indoor climbing participation figures in a sector ripe for consolidation. Plenty of publicity with the Olympics. Scale up, load with debt, float it on AIM or sell to a gym group.
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Or allow users to invest, a la Brewdog and similar, or Crowdfund.
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Yes, I am mildly cynical about my job!
When I first met you, you told me what you did for a living and then immediately issued a grovelling apology. Don't hate on yourself!
I can see huge benefits to attracting investment to a wall but, as Shark outlines, also the long term consequences. I think crowdfunding investment would be wishful thinking. Considering that there is a lot of reluctance among climbers to encourage more people into the sport, I can't see it getting sufficient backing to actually be significant.
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How much would one need to crowdfund to open a wall?
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Not a scoob. But climbers being climbers, I bet if a decent offer was made - year membership at reduced cost for up front payment, I'm sure if it was in the right area and pitched right it would get the needed backing.
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Wasn't there a case of a climbing/yoga space in London being kickstartered recently?
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Interesting to see how the trends will go. A climber crowd funded wall will have climbers as the target audience but I suspect a more business focused wall will target newbies with clip n'climb ("delivering WOW experiences"), parkour wannabees, muscle up specialists, yogaists and crossfit refugees.
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When I first met you, you told me what you did for a living and then immediately issued a grovelling apology. Don't hate on yourself!
I can see huge benefits to attracting investment to a wall but, as Shark outlines, also the long term consequences. I think crowdfunding investment would be wishful thinking. Considering that there is a lot of reluctance among climbers to encourage more people into the sport, I can't see it getting sufficient backing to actually be significant.
Haha I remember that! No hate, I just keep myself healthily detached :)
Private equity done right needn't fuck the business, but there are so many cases like Shark describes; load the business with debt and offload the highest bidder after 5 or so years. Profits are siphoned off rather than reinvested and staff are not rewarded, below the level of senior management. Look at what happened to Gibson Guitars in the US for a prime example of this.
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Interesting to see how the trends will go. A climber crowd funded wall will have climbers as the target audience but I suspect a more business focused wall will target newbies with clip n'climb ("delivering WOW experiences"), parkour wannabees, muscle up specialists, yogaists and crossfit refugees.
Indeed, as has been noted many times on these forums and elsewhere the likes of 'us', ie total climbing badgers, are not what makes a climbing wall money. Its the casual users who don't pay for monthly membership and drink a load of coffee, the kids groups etc that do that.
If the expected boom in climbing participation around the Olympics materialises a gap in the market may well materialise for small scale 'School Room' type walls where the focus is on training. I suspected that the cost of this would be considerably higher than it is having just checked Moon's website, which is interesting in itself. Hmm, an idea...
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I thought the Depot had private investment and this was how they afforded to build such amazing walls (manchester). Does anyone know if this is true?
I like the idea of share options but may not generate the same kind of capital?
Would also be interested to know this actually.
Off topic, but anyone know whats going on with the potential acquisition of the Leeds Wall by the Depot...?
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The Barn was a small climbing wall in the Aire Valley. It had something like 5 top roping lines which were used for kids groups and some bouldering space. All in all the bouldering space might have been a quarter of the bouldering space that is in the Leeds Depot (that's excluding the back room with the woodies at the Depot).
The directors had invested £200k to set that up (it did have a small underground "indoor caving" thing which was crawling round in a basement, going through ball pit sumps etc).
There's no way you'd fund a medium or large commercial wall through Kickstarter.
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I heard the Leeds wall was closing and the Depot group was buying. And (interestingly) the closure was not due to the Depot buying...
Usual Chinese whispers apply..
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Investing in a climbing wall venture is something I’d be interested in -
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Wasn't there a case of a climbing/yoga space in London being kickstartered recently?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thisisyonder/this-is-yonder-londons-first-climbing-yoga-and-wor/updates
Will, this film got $80k https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nevernotcollective/pretty-strong-all-your-favorite-climbing-chicks-in I wouldn't underestimate what you can raise with kickstarter with the right product. I bet if someone crowdfunded somewhere wall poor but population rich like Cambridge you could make a real go of it.
Also there was some anti participation sentiment on here, but I don't think that is true across climbers, from what the BMC survey said anyway.
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("delivering WOW experiences"), parkour wannabees, muscle up specialists, yogaists and crossfit refugees.
This. Thanks for the chortle boss.
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The recently opened Boulder Hut was crowdfunded (or at least partially) https://www.crowdcube.com/companies/boulder-hut-ltd/pitches/lzOJOZ
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Boulder Hut in Ellesmere Port was crowdfunded. It's been open 3 or 4 weeks now and they've made a pretty good fist of it. Sort of Boardroom/Depot Manchester scale and plenty of space to throw more holds at it. Aimed for £1/4M and comfortably beat that (good job really - some of the projections looked a bit tight). Lots of Olympics, kids, softplay, coffee & felafel in the pitch, but it's a fine wall and definitely worth a look.
Edit: must type faster
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The recently opened Boulder Hut was crowdfunded (or at least partially) https://www.crowdcube.com/companies/boulder-hut-ltd/pitches/lzOJOZ
"Venue designed to serve climbers from birth onwards"
Do facilities include birthing room?
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Do facilities include birthing room?
Down the hall, on the left next to the crematorium. Have a good climb!
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Investing in a climbing wall venture is something I’d be interested in -
what's the going rate for having a hold named after you in Dolly's shed?
I'll do you a 10% discount off that on my wall. I can offer you a full foothold name option for half that.
Guaranteed no resetting for at least 12 months.
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As long as some of the cash gets put into air con, new holds they don't have to give back after loaning them and occasional guest setters (no offence Psyche, Sam and team) at the Liverpool Hangar, I'll be happy.
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God I miss setting. Ged, please can I set some problems if you're reading this? FOC of course.
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As long as some of the cash gets put into air con, new holds they don't have to give back after loaning them and occasional guest setters (no offence Psyche, Sam and team) at the Liverpool Hangar, I'll be happy.
AC is such a pain in the arse in climbing centers.
You guys stop using chalk and we’ll talk about it, ok?
🤪😉
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AC (and climbing wall heating for that matter) also not a good look for the environmentally minded climber!
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Interesting that Cambridge warrants a mention - I'm from round that way and think that is an area rife for development.
I suspect that Cambridge itself would be prohibitive on the rents / parking front, but somewhere like Peterborough further north, or Royston further south would be viable. Not that I'm volunteering to move there and set one up.
Leeds-wise, that's interesting news / conjecture. I drive past the now-closed PC World next to B+Q by Elland Rd and always think that'd be a good candidate. On a huge estate where that, Aldi and Maplin have all closed down, so there's loads of parking too.
Either way The Depot Leeds needs a boost / some investment, as while it's the original centre for the chain it's very much the poor cousin of the family now.
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Could Leeds really support another wall?
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Could Leeds really support another wall?
Even if you divided the people using The Depot in two and didn't add any additional punters I think you could still have two profitable walls. When the Depot opened though it encouraged a lot of non climbers into climbing, so they weren't just drawing from the climbing crowd, and from what I understand the same happened at the new one in Kirkstall from the student population.
The catchment for Leeds walls is also huge due to the population density of CleckHuddersFax and Bradford.
So short answer I think is yes, if it's decent.
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As long as some of the cash gets put into air con, new holds they don't have to give back after loaning them and occasional guest setters (no offence Psyche, Sam and team) at the Liverpool Hangar, I'll be happy.
They could start by ditching that foil blanket.
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Could Leeds really support another wall?
Even if you divided the people using The Depot in two and didn't add any additional punters I think you could still have two profitable walls. When the Depot opened though it encouraged a lot of non climbers into climbing, so they weren't just drawing from the climbing crowd, and from what I understand the same happened at the new one in Kirkstall from the student population.
The catchment for Leeds walls is also huge due to the population density of CleckHuddersFax and Bradford.
So short answer I think is yes, if it's decent.
Seconded- I thought The Lab was a speculative punt at best when I heard about it, but head down on a midweek evening and it's rammed. Rammed mostly with newbies fist-bumping each other for "crushing" a V1 but rammed nonetheless.
They've also got by far the best provision for kids in Leeds too, which is the main driver for getting me down there. Last couple of times I've been my daughter has climbed for a couple of hours and I've been lucky to sneak a warm-up in!
I still get to The Depot now and again, but my overriding experience of late is that it's over-full, and the design / safety compromises of the layout (lots of corners for punters to walk under you on, limited wall real estate meaning close proximity / crossing other lines etc) are being amplified by the volume.
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The Leeds Depot has a certain authenticity about it which I like, but its definitely crowded a bit too often for comfort. This is less of a problem when you don't mind hiding in the back room, but can be a bit wearing if you wanted to do some problems. Not sure how you fix that issue though as you can only work with the space you've got.
Leeds can definitely support another wall though. All three are consistently rammed with people, and even the Leeds Wall in its previous shit incarnation got reasonably busy. The fact thats shut won't have helped the numbers in the other three. I do think that even if the Leeds Wall 2.0 doesn't do lead climbing (surely it will?!) then it won't be long before the likes of Awesome Walls move in. Leeds is a massive catchment area as Stubs pointed out above and if the right building could be found I suspect it would be a good earner. If only I had any capital with which to give it a crack!
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Not sure how you fix that issue though as you can only work with the space you've got.
Guess there are a few approaches, dependent on what / how big any new space would be. Taking my example of the defunct PC World, Steve and co could get hold of that, build a Manchester-style mega-centre. Make that a place for V0 - V5 (say), with a decent / proper / hived off area for kids and the associated parties and groups, and leave the original Depot as an "elite" centre, only catering for the (say) V4 and above climber.
If only I had any capital with which to give it a crack!
As mentioned above, surely you're the ideal person given your contacts book?!
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I still get to The Depot now and again, but my overriding experience of late is that it's over-full, and the design / safety compromises of the layout (lots of corners for punters to walk under you on, limited wall real estate meaning close proximity / crossing other lines etc) are being amplified by the volume.
One has to bear in mind that when Leeds Depot opened (almost a decade ago?) there was only really The Works and BUK existing as dedicated bouldering facilities at the time, and I remember that a lot of people then thought it was too big and you'd never get that many people into bouldering. It's a testament to where indoor climbing has come in the last few years that it now seems small and overcrowded compared to its more modern contemporaries.
Spidermonkey - I don't think anyone would take on a building the height of Leeds Wall without a view to keep the lead wall, and I assume also tap into the Olympics speed&lead training hype.
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Spidermonkey - I don't think anyone would take on a building the height of Leeds Wall without a view to keep the lead wall, and I assume also tap into the Olympics speed&lead training hype.
That is the logical conclusion to reach I agree. I heard rumours of a two tiered bouldering centre although this would require some pretty significant work to attain. I hope they stick with the roped stuff as there is a big market there. If I owned it I would set a 20m gently overhanging wall entirely with undercuts, sidepulls and shite feet and market it as a Malham specific training wall!
TTT's hypothetical 'beginner' and 'advanced' split model is an interesting one. Taking that even further would be for the OG Depot to become a sort of Schoolroom type facility, although its probably too big to be honest.
TTT - I'll see who I can whistle up! :tumble:
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TTT's hypothetical 'beginner' and 'advanced' split model is an interesting one. Taking that even further would be for the OG Depot to become a sort of Schoolroom type facility, although its probably too big to be honest.
I'm not so sure - junk the two islands in the centre, do away with the kid's area (and possibly the shop too) and I think you would end up with a sensible amount of wall real estate, and then you could have decent circuits (say Wood, Purple, Yellow and Orange in the current setup) with very limited problem clash and also create less congestion / risk on the mats.
Other aspect of the Depot's popularity which I think prompts a change of approach is the parking - rocking up at 7.30pm ish as I have last few times I've really struggled to get anywhere near the car park, the overspill car park, or even the "overspill overspill" car park next to the pub!
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Guess when you factor in the population density of the greater area of the M62 corridor (up to A1), you're laughing.
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The Leeds Depot has a certain authenticity about it which I like, but its definitely crowded a bit too often for comfort. This is less of a problem when you don't mind hiding in the back room, but can be a bit wearing if you wanted to do some problems. Not sure how you fix that issue though as you can only work with the space you've got.
Considering how busy the Depot gets, I am very grateful that it doesn't affect the back room whatsoever. Apart from the occasions when they think it's a good idea to get the youth team stretching under the 50 board :rtfm:
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TTT's hypothetical 'beginner' and 'advanced' split model is an interesting one. Taking that even further would be for the OG Depot to become a sort of Schoolroom type facility, although its probably too big to be honest.
Sounds a little like what the works seem to be aiming for with the building that was recently vacated next to them. Looking at the planning docs it sounds like they're gonna use the new space as a training only/elite area which you need a year membership to access.
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I'm not so sure - junk the two islands in the centre, do away with the kid's area (and possibly the shop too) and I think you would end up with a sensible amount of wall real estate
Are you at the crack, TTT? Without the central island you'd have a huge amount of floor and not that much wall.
Anyway, in answer to the question of whether Leeds can support another wall, the answer is absolutely and unequivocally "yes". I'm not aware of any truly excellent routes climbing facility in Leeds or the surrounding area.
Leeds Wall - problems are rife and well documented. One of the worst climbing facilities ever to besmirch the earth's surface.
Brighouse - Too gimmicky. Loads of bouldering area, almost none of it put to good use (primarily due to lack of height). The top roping in the old silos is atmospheric. Barely any lead climbing space.
Harrogate Wall - A good wall. Good holds, good setting (setter dependent), just needs to be bigger. Much bigger!
I do wonder what's going to happen to all these indoor bouldering places when the bubble bursts. We're a way off it yet but it's bound to happen in 15 years time or so? Can you pick up cheap trampolines yet from those hipster bounce craters yet?
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Are you at the crack, TTT? Without the central island you'd have a huge amount of floor and not that much wall.
No more so than at the Manchester Depot for example, and T3's idea is that this would only be for the l33t.
You'll be looking forward to the newly Depotised Leeds Wall then Will!
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Is there a Sheffield Depot on the way?
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There was talk of one, can't see any recent change of use on the Council page, here's The Works one (no details of interior) https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=PAXG27NYM0V00
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I look forward to seeing what they do with it. There's lots of potential but it's an odd space.
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Sounds a little like what the works seem to be aiming for with the building that was recently vacated next to them. Looking at the planning docs it sounds like they're gonna use the new space as a training only/elite area which you need a year membership to access.
Thats pretty cool. Guess there'll be a swipe card/turnstile system regulating access; piece of piss.
Hope Steve is going to be paying your consultancy fee when this all comes to pass in a year or so TTT :2thumbsup:
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Sounds a little like what the works seem to be aiming for with the building that was recently vacated next to them. Looking at the planning docs it sounds like they're gonna use the new space as a training only/elite area which you need a year membership to access.
Thats pretty cool. Guess there'll be a swipe card/turnstile system regulating access; piece of piss.
Hope Steve is going to be paying your consultancy fee when this all comes to pass in a year or so TTT :2thumbsup:
Ha ha - perhaps Steve'll give me a free coffee or something next time I'm in!
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The idea of the elite area sounds interesting, but potentially quite dangerous. It doesn't really fit with the "look" of climbing which walls tend to go for, which is ultra-friendly and inclusive. Bearing in mind that the number one concern that I hear new climbers voicing is "I'll be rubbish at it"/"I don't want to embarrass myself", I can only imagine they'd feel quite shit if they got to the wall for their first CrushSesh and found that they'd be relegated to the climbing equivalent of a ball pool and soft play.
Also, if I'm presumably going to get access to the Elite area (questionable, I know!) and I need a year's pass, I can see it being prohibitively expensive since I'm generally an occasional/weekly-during-the-winter user. A year's pass probably wouldn't work for me but I still want access to the non-Dudebro bit.
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When the Manc depot was being built - I was chatting to Steve about the 30 and 50, and he said he deliberately wanted them to be within/part of the main bouldering area - not tucked away so it was the area where only the hardcore people went etc.. (a wee bit like it is at Leeds). Well that was my understanding/gist of the conversation anyway.
So I'd be surprised if this happened... but hey, wadda I know?
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sounds like it's just to compete with the School Room. I'm sure that'll work in Sheffield.
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When the Manc depot was being built - I was chatting to Steve about the 30 and 50, and he said he deliberately wanted them to be within/part of the main bouldering area - not tucked away
The 50 would be better tucked away, or at least all in one place with the other training IMO (although when I've driven to Manc Depot it isn't ever for the boards). This was more of an issue when the pen wasn't there and people would shortcut to the bathrooms, passing underneath the board.
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The idea of the elite area sounds interesting, but potentially quite dangerous. It doesn't really fit with the "look" of climbing which walls tend to go for, which is ultra-friendly and inclusive. Bearing in mind that the number one concern that I hear new climbers voicing is "I'll be rubbish at it"/"I don't want to embarrass myself", I can only imagine they'd feel quite shit if they got to the wall for their first CrushSesh and found that they'd be relegated to the climbing equivalent of a ball pool and soft play.
It's a good point - I guess if there was a Manchester-sized / scale centre opened elsewhere then the dilution from the Depot Leeds mk.1 would just happen organically, I guess the novelty would just drive people there like it did when Manchester opened.
Either way it's good to see that the climbing population of Leeds is still keen, and seemingly growing at a rate.
Agree about the shame of the lack of a roped centre in the city though.
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Is Leeds Wall closed for a refurb, or closed forever?
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Is Leeds Wall closed for a refurb, or closed forever?
As far as I know (which may well be wrong - please correct me) - the owners decided (for reasons unknown to me) to close it and the Depot were/are trying to take over the site/business.
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Thanks.
Shame, it was a great place for a long time.
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I think the directors of the Leeds Wall were a lot of the Yorkshire old guard, who might just want to jack it in now they're all retired.
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Interesting that Cambridge warrants a mention - I'm from round that way and think that is an area rife for development.
I suspect that Cambridge itself would be prohibitive on the rents / parking front, but somewhere like Peterborough further north, or Royston further south would be viable. Not that I'm volunteering to move there and set one up.
There's a wall in Cambridge that opened up earlier this year.
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The new building at the Works has a number of different areas planned. There will have a climbing specific gym for strength and conditioning training. (The new gym part will also have an Infinity board so you can train stamina until you're arms drop off.) Then there will be a main climbing area aimed at comp specific problems, but will also have things like a splatter board (sounds disgusting - probably is). There will also be a seminar room, some much needed office space, treatment rooms for physios, etc. to use to try and fix people when they're injured, and so on. The facility is unashamedly elitist, but we will make the climbing space available at peak times for any of our customers who want to use it. I would imagine that this would self regulate to those folk who are climbing Font 6c/7a and upwards. I don't imagine there will be any climbing in this new part any easier than this. The rest of the time access will be restricted to members only to provide a modern environment for climbers who are serious about training, as well as a playground for route setters to practise and push their creativity a little. Assuming the planners say yes.... :popcorn:
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Just to note that the main benefit for me with this investment is the monthly pass going down from £34 to £24! This also includes a yoga class a week and shoe hire if you need it. Aimed at keeping your average gym bod I'd have thought?
Doubt you'll hear many complaining like...
Does this make it the cheapest monthly rate in the UK?