UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: tc on June 02, 2006, 02:31:23 pm
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It seems as if I am not alone in my views on the new Rockfax bouldering guide to the Lakes:
"Lakes Bouldering by Jonathan Lagoe and Andy Hyslop is now available. The new book covers the varied and extensive bouldering found in and around the Lake District and includes all the classic old venues plus many which have never before been published in a guidebook. The guide, which is well put together with full colour reproduction, has had a mixed reception from many local enthusiasts; "often vague and lackluster descriptions - and its poor collection of fairly uninspiring imagery" and "The Lakes bouldering scene was really buzzing for a while but the guide singularly fails to capture that spirit." "It has jpegs but it has no soul."
Reported 2nd June 2006 at www.climbonline.co.uk
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Better watch your back tc, i got shot down severly for saying something like that... only I did it on UKC, you're probably safe here.
I agree with you entirely. How can anything as sanitised as the Rockfax format portray an area's spirit?
There's a topic knocking around somewhere to do with this.
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"Lakes Bouldering by Jonathan Lagoe and Andy Hyslop is now available. The new book covers the varied and extensive bouldering found in and around the Lake District and includes all the classic old venues plus many which have never before been published in a guidebook. The guide, which is well put together with full colour reproduction, has had a mixed reception from many local enthusiasts; "often vague and lackluster descriptions - and its poor collection of fairly uninspiring imagery" and "The Lakes bouldering scene was really buzzing for a while but the guide singularly fails to capture that spirit." "It has jpegs but it has no soul."
Reported 2nd June 2006 at www.climbonline.co.uk
Oddly enough, the above review has now been altered to:
"Lakes Bouldering by Jonathan Lagoe and Andy Hyslop is now available. The new book covers over 1000 problems in and around the Lake District and includes all the classic old venues plus many which have never before been published in a guidebook. Areas Included: Kentmere, Chapel Stile Boulders, Langdale Boulders, Wrynose, Coniston, Gouther, Carrock Fell, Thirlmere Boulders, Ullswater, The Bowderstone, Langstrath Boulders, Honister, Gillercombe Boulders, St Bees North Head, Fleswick Bay, St Bees South Head, Wasdale, Eskdale Fisherground, Upper Eskdale, Furness Area. The links take you to the relevant sections of the Rockfax Route Database. Reported 2nd June 2006"
How very strange :-\
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Maybe because they remembered that they're a news site and not an opinion site. I'd prefer them to keep the politics out of it.
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So they aren't allowed to report anyone's opinion about anything, just beacuse they are a "news" site? Balls.
Be interested to hear Steve Crowe's motives as to why they changed it though.
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So they aren't allowed to report anyone's opinion about anything, just beacuse they are a "news" site? Balls.
Of course they are. But it usual to credit opinions with a name.
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And if, unusually, they decline to credit their sources, do you exert pressure on them to alter their review? Or does this just happen by coincidence?
It is in no way unusual to withold a reviewer's identity from the author of a work.
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It is in no way unusual to withold a reviewer's identity from the author of a work.
Which planet does that happen on?
It is always usual if you review something, gear, a car, a book etc to credit the reviewer. Unless that is, you happen to post the review anonymously or under a psuedonym on a forum.
If you hold an opinion about something or someone have the backbone to sign your name to it.
Mick Ryan
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Ah, bless. It happens, for example, in the academic world. In fact, it is standard procedure on receipt of an academic paper to use double blind reviews to assess the quality of the work prior to publication in journals, etc. You will also find anonymous reviews of books, CDs, plays and films in daily papers and magazines, where opinions about the work are given but the name of the person who holds those opinions is not.
On a vaguely related note, apparently Joseph Conrad's wife saw her husband sitting despondently in his library after reading the reviews of his latest novel. 'But Joseph, they all appreciate your work,' she said. 'I don't want to be appreciated,' he replied, 'I want to be praised.'
Do you only want to be praised, Mick?
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It is in no way unusual to withold a reviewer's identity from the author of a work.
Which planet does that happen on?
It is always usual if you review something, gear, a car, a book etc to credit the reviewer. Unless that is, you happen to post the review anonymously or under a psuedonym on a forum.
If you hold an opinion about something or someone have the backbone to sign your name to it.
Mick Ryan
i think met you/saw you at kilnsey many years ago.you came across as a bit of pratt.funnily enough my opinion has'nt changed.
yours
charlton chestwig
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You scared him off Webbo, you big bully
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Sorry for the delay tc.....getting close to the wire on the Bishop Bouldering guide.
No, we are most certainly not scared of criticism, nor do we want only praise. Constructive criticism is welcomed and is responded to.
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however you seem to respond any criticism in a some what challenging manner by making asspertions that folk have no bottle because they post under a nickname,rather than answering the point made.
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often vague and lackluster descriptions - and its poor collection of fairly uninspiring imagery
The Lakes bouldering scene was really buzzing for a while but the guide singularly fails to capture that spirit
It has jpegs but it has no soul
Well that all looks like fair constructive criticism to me, Mick. Would any one else expect full references for this?
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this months climb has an even handed review of it.
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So they aren't allowed to report anyone's opinion about anything, just beacuse they are a "news" site? Balls.
Indeed, because that's not what I meant. Climbonline do a good job of being an "apolitical" news / information site - and this is clearly a political issue between Rockfax and the Lakes activists. As I said, I think they (CO) come off better if they keep out of it on their site at least.
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I thought the Climb review was a bit strange in that It pretty much slagged the guide of but then gave it 4 stars for occasional out of town users.
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Dear Rockfax,
to counter the negative reviews, why not offer a free copy of the guide to anyone who is prepared to write a positive review and then publish it on UKC?
Oh, you have done that already :wank:
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I thought the Climb review was a bit strange in that It pretty much slagged the guide of but then gave it 4 stars for occasional out of town users.
Probably because all locals prefer and use lakesbloc?
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Dear Rockfax,
to counter the negative reviews, why not offer a free copy of the guide to anyone who is prepared to write a positive review and then publish it on UKC?
Oh, you have done that already :wank:
Actually I just offered a free copy to anyone prepared to write a review; there was no agenda and I'm sure both reviewers would be happy to confirm that I gave them no indication about what kind of review I was after.
We actually got two back and I have added the second one this morning
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=209
Alan
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Or here for the non UKC admin site users
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=209 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=209)
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Whoops, thanks.
Edited mine now anyway (quite handy that post editing feature).
Alan
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If I write an unbiased review for UKB can I have a free guide Alan?
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I'll do one as well Alan? :please:
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Sorry but we only really needed one, and got two anyway.
If you are interested in general reviews of other books, then email me and I'll put you onto a list of potential reviewers.
Alan
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I meant a review for UKB not for yourselves. I thought you wanted the book to be reviewed for various publications e.g. Climb etc etc
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They're both at the above link - you just have to scroll down from the first one.
Would be interesting to read a review from someone who bouldered hard, but wasn't biased towards lakesbloc, as i guess most who have visited the Lakes are (I know it would sway my judgement while writing a review).
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Well it is lower on the same page. If you are still getting the page with a single review then hit 'Refresh' and you will bump the cached page out.
Alan
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Is it just me that finds it a little Utopian to assume that someone offered a free guide for a review to be put on the website of the guide producers would do a completely unbiased job?
Anyone who has tried to review this guide and submitted the line:
The photography itself varies from fantastically inspiring to average
is clearly either midway through a particularly vibrant acid trip or bending the truth. The fact is that every photo is awful bar the Needlesports advert, one of Kate Arnold at Gillercombe, and the Stirrup Stones picture displayed beside the reviews, which are good.
Or indeed the line:
There is quite a bit of info about local developers, little amusing snippets, stories and photos slipped in amongst the topos to give a feel of a local guide
I've got a copy and couldn't find that much?????
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He obviously missed the "on the way home" shot (at the end, if I remember correctly), too, which I don't think is actually even in the Lake District. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the path to Thorn Crag?
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You don't need correction, it is the new track beneath the crag boulders at Thorn Crag, an area not covered by the Rockfax. Quite why they didn't use a shot of say Earl Crag, or perhaps Hueco to encourage people to the Lakes I don't know :shrug:
My main gripe with this photo would really be the reproduction, which is universally terrible for every action shot in the guide, yet crystal for all the photo topos? :-\
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let be honest. the guide is a heap of shit. thrown together in some mismatched rushed way, by people who lets be honest dont really have the slightest notion of bouldering in the area (or bouldering in any area). the photos are pathetic. anyone who says otherwise is not a boulderer.
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I suspect you won't be getting a free copy for that review.
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Constructive criticism is welcomed and is responded to.
Go ahead, respond
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good lord people always go on about guide books
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Constructive criticism is welcomed and is responded to.
Go ahead, respond
Which bit of constructive criticism were you looking for a response to?
Alan
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Which bit of constructive criticism were you looking for a response to?
Alan
You really should get a job in politics, it's the spiritual home of avoidance tactics and smokescreening. In my book, constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments. A person giving this criticism has to genuinely feel it is important to give it. I hope you will agree that the opinions expressed are, at the very least, genuine -- passionate even.
Particularly sensitive individuals are likely to respond in a defensive or aggressive way to such criticism, however. Unfortunately, couching the constructive criticism in pleasantries to a point where the person does not take it seriously is also unhelpful.
Which leave us with all the comments on both this thread and elsewhere.
Are you really saying that none of them was useful for you? That all are invalid, to be bundled inside your "bullshit conspiracy theory"?
If that is the case, what you are hoping for is not "constructive" but "constricted" criticism and I wish you luck with your deluded expectations of the climbing fraternity, a group of people who in my experience tend to cut right through the bullshit and say precisely what they think.
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Well the best way to respond to criticism is to make a better book next time, which I suspect is what Mick intended in the statement you were quoting. This is what we are always striving to do and all comments received here and elsewhere are useful in this respect.
I don't want to waste time trying to put a general response forward when no-one, especially yourself, has really stated anything apart from that they don't like the action photos, however, if there is a particular issue that vexes you then please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to respond.
Alan
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I don't want to waste time trying to put a general response forward when no-one, especially yourself, has really stated anything apart from that they don't like the action photos
What about a response as to why the photos are, bar the exceptions I already mentioned above plus the fantastic picture of a young (!) Andy Hyslop at Armathwaite in the R+R advert, generally awful?
however, if there is a particular issue that vexes you then please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to respond.
Alright, why is the picture reproduction so bad for the overwhelming majority of the action shots (the Thorn Crag "heading home" shot is a prime example). Especially since its totally perfect for the photo topos?
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What about a response as to why the photos are, bar the exceptions I already mentioned above plus the fantastic picture of a young (!) Andy Hyslop at Armathwaite in the R+R advert, generally awful?
As I am sure you well know, photos are a matter of opinion any trip through the UKC Photo galleries will give you enough evidence of this. For example, you quoted the photo of Kate Arnold at Gillercombe as being a good photo. Ironically that photo was very lucky to get in the guide since we felt that it told us more about Kate and Jim than it did about the bouldering at Gillercombe. It is certainly my least favourite photo in the book. This may also point to a key reason why the photos aren't appealing to some people. Our style favours wider, more expansive shots that give an impression of the environment and the setting of the boulders - isolated bouldering in a magnificent lakes Mountain landscape. The best examples of this would be the dps on page 166 with Esk Buttress in the background, a similarly evocative shot on page 122 of Gillercombe, and the previously mentioned Stirrup Boulders shot. If you don't like those then you obviously have a different opinion of what constitutes a good bouldering photo to us. That doesn't mean you are wrong, nor that we are right, however the generalisation that all the photos are awful is just your opinion and not a fact.
One thing this guide has probably taught us is that we should throw the photos net a bit wider to get a more representative selection, something that was tricky this time since many of the areas are very new and have seen few visitors with cameras.
Alright, why is the picture reproduction so bad for the overwhelming majority of the action shots (the Thorn Crag "heading home" shot is a prime example). Especially since its totally perfect for the photo topos?
Are you sure your copy of the book is okay? If you are talking about the orange cast on the 'heading home' shot then that is because the sun was setting. We had a few problems with blue tint creeping into some of the slide scans caused by an adjustment I made at the printers, and one or two of the slide scans are slightly soft. Apart from that, the reproduction of the action shots is fine and, on my copy, I can see no difference between the action shots and the photo-topos.
Alan
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Alan wrote: however the generalisation that all the photos are awful is just your opinion
Whilst I agree everyone is entitled to there opinions over what is a good or bad image, I must take issue with your point regarding the quality of the action images in the LB Rockfax.
To say Nige is the only person who has brought you to task over the quality of the images in this guide says to me you haven't asked many people. Everybody who I have met around the Lakes over the last couple of months (bar nobody) who has spoken to me about
the guide - a number of whom did like the general layout etc. - has brought up the action imagery as a real letdown...
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To say Nige is the only person who has brought you to task over the quality of the images in this guide says to me you haven't asked many people. Everybody who I have met around the Lakes over the last couple of months (bar nobody) who has spoken to me about
the guide - a number of whom did like the general layout etc. - has brought up the action imagery as a real letdown...
Nowhere have I stated that Nige was "the only person who has brought (us) to task", there are obviously more people on this thread for starters, plus Trevor Suddaby in the Climb review. There are also two reviews on the UKC site, plus one on planetFear, who appreciate the action photos, which doesn't prove anything other than that other opinions exist.
This is becoming a bit of a non-discussion.
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I understand its a matter of opinion but you've got to listen to the masses, or at least the odd guide owner or perhaps Climb reviewer, when the're telling you that the photos are underwhelming. Take the lead in to the guide for example, the first few pages. This is the first bit of the guide people will flick through to get inspired, and its prime advertising space for selling the content with cracking shots. It starts well with the Needlesports advert of the Bowderstone (taken I note by renowned photographer John Houlihan); then the next three full page pictures are of
1) a bored looking Al Hewison posing on a generic St Bees arete (we aren't told what it is - is it a 3* problem? If not, it should be if used on page 2!) of which we can't see a thing, on a fairly dull day. The colours are washed out, Al's face is in the shade, the rock looks dirty - hardly a showpiece. Given the fact that this is only one of 2 full page St Bees shots (4 in total) you have to admit you could have done far better by undoubtably Britain's most photogenic bouldering crag. Example? Here you are (its a fairly old shot and I'm sure you could have had it):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=16979
2) a Rockcity advert. I understand the financial pressure but...aren't they in Hull? Prime advertising space for the best Lakes bouldering has to offer just got sold out to prime advertising space for a climbing wall. In Hull. While we're on it, are you obliged to publish whatever you're advertisers submit without argument? Its dreadful. And if you think *thats* opinion, just flick back to the Needlesports advert.
3) the contents page shot of Andy Hyslop "exploring" at Gillercombe. There are two of the Lakes' finest mountain rock problems up here; Ian's Arete V8 and Awesome Arete V5, both unmissable three star classics. Instead we have one of the authors scrambling up the descent route on an otherwise pretty good boulder (for bouldering!) in Ronhills and *trainers*. I accept you we're going for the more "expansive" shots to give a landscape context, but would it have been too much to ask to have the subject, erm...bouldering? Plus the light is flat despite it clearly being a nice day, I reckon that coming back in the morning when the boulders get the sun would have been better.
I could go on.
All I'm trying to say that you missed an opportunity to showcase Lakes bouldering at its best. How many pictures of 3* problems are there? How many pictures are taken by professional photographers? How many pictures of Andy Hyslop are there? (A lot!) All of the above are things that could be easily rectified.
Oh, the reproduction. In the Thorn Crag shot I don't mean the orange cast, I can tell a sunset at one of my favourite crags! I mean the fact that I can pretty much count the pixels in the bouldering mats, or the central figure's white trousers, with the naked eye. Another example of this pixelisation would be Phil Wake on Rob's Wall on page 4 - look at the climber and his shadow. Given the size of this pic, then even with a bargain basement digi the quality would be better than this if reproduced correctly. If this is just my copy then something very strange is going on, either with the printer when he made mine, or your eyes!
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Ok, well you have made your point, and I can acknowledge that on some of the shots you have a good point. Two of the photos you quote are in fact backdrop photos which are included so that we can't write things over the top of them. We tend to need specifically composed shots to do this, and I don't like to use the best shots for backdrop shots.
I am sure next time we do a Lakes Bouldering guide will have a significantly bigger pool of photos to choose from and I am confident that you won't make the same comments about the new Eastern Grit guidebook.
Regarding adverts: we have to take what we are given and people pay for positions in the guide. We can advise and help but mostly the artwork arrives about 2 days before publication so there is little time to influence the ads. You don't turn down people offering you money to advertise just because they are not in the local area.
Regarding the reproduction: either your eye sight is phenomenal or you really do have a faulty copy. I can find no evidence of this pixelation that you are taking about.
Alan
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I am sure next time we do a Lakes Bouldering guide...
:jaw: God forbid
The Planet Fear review is interesting, particularly in view of the following comment from the reviewer:
"...Though I haven't bouldered in the Lakes..." ::)
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I think theres a strong case for rockfax vetting the ads it recives for the guides. For example the otherwise visually-ok northern limestone guide is almost ruined aesthetically by absolute dogshite adverts for: awesome walls (looks like its a picture thats been fading in a sunny shop window for 3 years), Reaching New Heights (washed out and i can just make out the guy on hale bopp (limestone? no, northern? no) if i bend the spine apart), Mountain Fever (soft photo skewed to fit different proportions) and Outside (looks like a 400px by 300px image resampled up, badly). Pretty much makes the rest of the guide look even worse.
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Unfortunately it is not as simple as that. Finances dictate that you can't refuse ads, and deadlines for printing (which many advertisers will push to the limit) mean that you are left with no time to correct problems, especially when the person paying the bill doesn't think that there is a problem. In the case of the Outside ad in Northern Limestone, we even told them twice that there was a big problem with the photo. They said they'd sort it but didn't and we couldn't miss a printing slot because we were waiting for one advert, so we just had to go with it in the end.
Alan
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as of yesterday.rockcity don't stock the guide.
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Sold out already?
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:lol:
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Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.
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Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.
I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.
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off the top of my head i can only remember the vision advert on the back so the rest must blend in pretty well, was it any hassle doing it this way?
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Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.
In actual fact, we have done that much more since Northern Limestone.
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I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.
You were writing the guide in a well-established commercial design house though. ie potential advertisers would have a level of confidence in VG they simply couldn't have in rockfax.
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Thought I might add a comment here in defence of the new guide. It seems that people are forgetting what the main purpose of a guidebook is: to provide accurate and easily understood information on the climbing / bouldering in a given area. I've looked through the guide and the topos, maps and problem descriptions are, as one would expect from Rockfax, very clear and easily understood. Compare this to blocnotes, a bouldering guide to various Swiss and Italian bouldering venues which I bought on a recent trip to Val Di Mello. It cost me 25 Euros (which included a shit VHS video) and was virtually useless when it came to finding problems. It had some lovely photos though. ;-).
Note that I have deliberately not commented on the accuracy of the guide as I do not know the area well enough.
Granted it would be nice to get everything right, but let's not get too carried away with dissing something for the sake of it. And fair play to Mick and Alan for attempting to discuss the feedback on here - there are plenty of people in the climbing world who simply won't come near these forums.
MattH
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I don't think people are "dissing something for the sake of it".
The points raised on here seem to be quite valid imho. People are mainly complaining about the photo quality and a lack of in-depth knowledge of the areas bouldering.
there are plenty of people in the climbing world who simply won't come near these forums
I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?
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I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?
Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.
Alan
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I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?
Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.
Alan
Is this to prove some political point Alan? Or do you really not know what these problems and grades are? How do you normally find out about this sort of info?Be careful as you should know by now not to trust everything you ready on the internet
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Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.
Alan
I PM'd you a link to a past topic covering the subject, did this not answer your query?
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One possibility you may not have considered is to actually go and do the problems, like guidebook authors tend to do.
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Thanks for that. I will check that thread. I missed the Message option. Am I supposed to get an email when that is used?
Alan
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You can select to have that happen in your profile.
Go to your profile, then to "personal message options", and then select "always" in the drop down next to "Notify by email every time you receive a personal message"
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One possibility you may not have considered is to actually go and do the problems, like guidebook authors tend to do.
Read the other thread and you will see that I have made some effort on these problems but I wouldn't be stupid enough to rely exclusively on my opinion, especially since most of them are too hard for me. So I ask people. Even if I can do them, I ask people, that way a consensus is built up.
The truth about guidebook writers who claim to have climbed every route in the book they are writing is; a) they are almost certainly lying; b) the book will have rubbish grades.
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I'm not sure that anyone has ever claimed to do every route in a guide, except maybe Paul William's Snowdonia one, and if they did, why would it make the grades rubbish? Paul's certainly weren't.
Pete Robbins' approach to Curbar and Gogarth has been similar. I don't expect his grades to be rubbish.
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I'm not sure that anyone has ever claimed to do every route in a guide, except maybe Paul William's Snowdonia one, and if they did, why would it make the grades rubbish? Paul's certainly weren't.
I actually meant guidebook authors who claim it as justification for their grades being correct.
The point is that grades should be reached by consensus not based on a single, or even few, opinions. Paul Williams didn't grade his routes based on his own opinion, he asked others. The more people you ask, the better the grades will be.
What have you got against me asking for Birchen Bouldering grades on this forum?
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I think this is a non-argument - no one has ever done every route in their book nor would it be possible for them to grade everything entirely without reference to other's opinions.
However I don't understand why you think someone who has nearly done all the routes will be 'rubbish' at grading them?
I have nothing against you asking for grades here. Rockfax have a confrontational reputation on this forum, admittedly this is more from Mick than yourself.
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However I don't understand why you think someone who has nearly done all the routes will be 'rubbish' at grading them?
It is a bit of a non-argument. I should probably have qualified my original statement more first.
Perhaps more clearly stated it would say, anyone who claims to have climbed every route on a crag in a guidebook, and uses their own experience as the only method to gauge the grades, will produce a guidebook with rubbish grades.
Whilst that seems far-fetched, it isn't that far from the small bunch of selected individuals who used to gather round to decide on the grades of many of the guidebooks from before the 90s. Because of this there have been some incredibly anomalies creeping in for the lower grade routes (I am sure OffWidth would have soemthing to say about this) in the BMC series of the 70s, 80s and 90s, that our online voting is now discovering. Basically you ahd the situation where a bunch of E1 to E6 leaders were sat around chosing grades for VDiffs - that doesn't work and no matter how many times they go out and climb them, they still won't know any better.
Alan
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Rockfax have a confrontational reputation on this forum, admittedly this is more from Mick than yourself.
Growl.
Sounds like I'm still paying for taking the piss and comparing ukb to the nihilist ghetto of boldering.com. Yip that didn't go down to well.
Word!
M
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Basically you ahd the situation where a bunch of E1 to E6 leaders were sat around chosing grades for VDiffs - that doesn't work and no matter how many times they go out and climb them, they still won't know any better
:agree: Fair point.
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Indeed. However, in the case of the Lakes Rockfax, it might have been a good idea to have had a bunch of V6 to V11 boulderers who had actually done the problems sitting round choosing grades for the V6 to V11 boulder problems described.
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Personally I was very unimpressed with the guide but as I have rarely bouldered in the Lakes I sought the opinion of boulderers I knew that do. I couldn't find anyone with anything positive to say although I have since.
Anyway I changed the text at the request of one of my sources and not because Rockfax were unhappy with what I wrote.
I do usually try to run my news by quoting facts rather than comment and opinion.
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I personally don't think the occasional grade cock up is a problem. You'll never get it right anyway as everyone is different. If a problem is V6 and listed as V3 then I might try it, and I might just get up it. If I can't do a V3 then it is "obviously graded wrong", so it makes me feel better. People always make mistakes, hell I can't get out of the house in the morning, without forgetting something, and I practice this every day. I would rather a new guide book was released with errors, than we had to wait for 2 years while everyone argues the toss over whether something is V6 or V7.
I think whoever writes a guidebook should be commended. I have used every guide book I have bought and found everyone really helpfull, warts and all. Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.
So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.
Share the love people :hug:
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I think whoever writes a guidebook should be commended. I have used every guide book I have bought and found everyone really helpfull, warts and all. Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.
So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.
I've deliberately avoided joining the various threads debating this new guide, partly because I've only briefly looked at the new guide and partly because it was all getting a bit embarrassingly vitriolic and petty. These comments from DScuffle however, are salient and probably pretty much what most people feel.
Yes, I agree that anyone producing a guidebook should aim to do the best job they can and it's worth giving feedback so that guides do improve and reach the standards set by people like Ru and Simon (and RockFax in many cases previously), but let's not forget that after all it's about giving information to people so they can do the important bit... the climbing.
If you're really that wound up about the RF guide, buy the Ground Up one when it comes out. I will be and I'm sure that it will sell really well (thus giving credit where it's due to Ground Up and the authors involved in that project).
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So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.
Share the love people :hug:
Don't forget; A big up for Ground Up and one for the Crowe.
And Climber's Club, and ...........
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Share the love people :hug:
What a refreshing post. Thanks for your positive comments.
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Regarding the reproduction: either your eye sight is phenomenal or you really do have a faulty copy. I can find no evidence of this pixelation that you are taking about.
Alan
I've noticed a small amount in the Lakes guide, but nothing compared to (slightly off topic) the reproduction in the dorset guide, it is very noticeable in there. Might just be my copy but for your reference P9, 10 and 11 are particularly bad.
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I've noticed a small amount in the Lakes guide, but nothing compared to (slightly off topic) the reproduction in the dorset guide, it is very noticeable in there. Might just be my copy but for your reference P9, 10 and 11 are particularly bad.
Once again, my copy appears to be fine. It is a bit worrying if there are differences showing up between copies.
Alan
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My edition of the 2005 Dorset guide has some very pixelated prints, especially the small image of Emma Madiera teasing us in her scantily-clad ascent of Ixtan
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Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.
You bought a guide so are part of that capitalism. If all your worried about is freedom and personal achievement, then maybe you don't need grades, guides, etc? Not having a go, just pointing out that it's hard to escape capitalism in most parts of our lives.
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Like this, perhaps?
"Imagine a climbing world without any documentation, or need for it... it wouldn't look much different: the high peaks would still look untrodden, the rock faces immutable and unknown, the boulders just attractive lumps of swirling geology. We would come across signs of climbing only on close up: chalk marks, rusted pegs, bolts, rotting slings and wonder what sort of experiences they had found, what successes, what failures: the act of having to imagine your way forwards is always preferable than following an arbitrary trail laid down on paper. You can get too divorced from it by proxy, which is why it is important to simply go exploring on your own: bouldering, soloing, walking: and not take any maps, or topos, or blog cut-outs... just finding your way on a good day over some fine rock is enough."
John Watson, Stone Country
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Good quote.
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Good quote.
Yup, but ironically from a guidebook.
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It's from this blog innit?
http://www.stonecountry.blogspot.com/
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My edition of the 2005 Dorset guide has some very pixelated prints, especially the small image of Emma Madiera teasing us in her scantily-clad ascent of Ixtan
yeah same in mine, thats page 10
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You bought a guide so are part of that capitalism. If all your worried about is freedom and personal achievement, then maybe you don't need grades, guides, etc? Not having a go, just pointing out that it's hard to escape capitalism in most parts of our lives.
To true, it is impossible to escape, and I for one think that's ashame. Oh well better stop complaining and carry on pushing the pedals of the capitalist machine :wall:
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It's from this blog innit?
http://www.stonecountry.blogspot.com/
I think it's somewhere in the guide too, will need to check.
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I noticed these ullswater boulders mentioned in the guide - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_buttress.html?id=1373
can anyone tell me where they are / how to get there?
cheers
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Below Raven Crag, Threshthwaite Cove
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nice one, cheers
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...Threshthwaite Cove
Try saying that late on a Saturday night :)
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Area 8a - The Rolling Rock - Threshthwaite Cove
This large impressive block is around 16 feet high and located at the Southern end of Patterdale below the foreboding Raven Crag Threshthwaite Cove. There are currently eight problems with the prospect of a hard sitter to the classic arête and a thin traverse across the main face, there is also a few less impressive problems still to do on the other boulders in the area.
Topo...
http://www.lakesbloc.co.uk/25.html
Jungle Hobo LH...
(https://secure.mmm.co.uk/sei/s/1284/558.jpg)
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I remember someone (Nigella?) telling me about this boulder with a weird sticky out square and triangle. I guess that must be it.
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already found the topo ;)
will be heading there this weekend to enjoy the sunshine, hopefully get jungle hobo, and in all likelihood doing a few of these - "there is also a few less impressive problems still to do on the other boulders in the area"
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Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.
I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.
I inadvertantly received a copy of this off my girlfriends parents for my birthday. She thought she had heard me mention that I wanted to pick this up some time, when it was actually the latest peak bouldering guide. That's by the by.
I've had a good look through it anyway. To refer to the above quote, I cannot believe that you are willing to receive advertisements so close to your printing deadlines. To me, this is tantamount to commercial suicide! It seems as though you have a lot of different visual authors all working at differing resolutions. And then, the printers have decided upon a resolution that they would like to impose upon the guide. The classic maxim, you can make good artwork shit, but you can't make shit artwork good is certainly pertinent here.
The action shots have been done to death in the thread. There's nothing remotely inspiring.
I can't recall anyone commenting on the cover of the guide, but it is possibly the worst piece of design I have ever seen. There's about 4 different typefaces/weights all vying for your attention, and some horrendous drop shadow bollocks going on with the word 'bouldering'.
I'd say this is on a level par with your mid nineties Peak Bouldering Comic Sans faux pas. There's even a whole movement in the typographic world devoted to it's abolition!
http://bancomicsans.com/
As commented upon earlier in the thread, a guide should capture the essence of an area. It's an absolutely monumental effort that goes into making a guide I'm sure you'll tell me. So why not use this time properly? Why come on here and ask for constructive criticism, when that's what you should have been doing in the formative stages of the guide, not post-print! And why not heed the words of the user's on here, instead of merely saying "well blah de blah on site x liked it". There are a lot of people here telling you otherwise. And it's not because you are some "corporate whore" or other sorely misguided cliched term, it is because you have categorically failed in your attempts, and you cannot openly admit that there are bad things lurking in that guide.
I'll be sending my copy back this time round I'm sad to say. Please consult a decent graphic designer next time round, and ask for your criticism at a viable point in time whereby you can actually do something about it.
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Jeez Tom, did you have a late night last night?
Top deconstruction of the guide though, especially pertinent since you work in the field of design. Not that I have actually looked hard at a copy yet. I used Mick's copy last weekend up at Carrock Fell and it seemed to do the job, but I only looked at one page in order to find one particular boulder. In that aspect it worked. I guess it's telling that I only know one person (two now that you have a copy) with the guide. Everyone else is still using annotated and tatty printed sheets off Lakesbloc.
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Sadly no late night Ben. Just a mean-ass curry and a moderate tipple, was rather nice! Recent sleep deprivation and a trashed middle finger may account slightly though.
I think I'm just incensed as I realise what a wasted opportunity this was. The photos of the individual problems were great, no problems. The quality was good and the line clearly defined. Sorry to keep going back to this, but it really is the guide's inability to portray the essence of Lakes bouldering. Perhaps some may find this easily forgiveable if it was a guide documenting a small, less frequented area, but it's the English Lake District, our pride and joy! Our bouldering pride and joy!
If you consider another individual or group of individuals who might like to produce their own version. You sit down, and you say to yourself, 'is it commercially viable for me/us to produce a lakes bouldering guide, bearing in mind that Rockfax have just released one x number of months ago? And do enough people have issue with the existing guide, to forfeit it and buy mine/ours?'
The answer I imagine, would be no. I might be wrong, it would be risky business though I would think. So it's this fact that we'll all have to sit around until the day when someone says, 'there's been enough development and the time period has been substantial enough to warrant a new guide'. And who's to say that won't be Rockfax again, and they will have ignored all of our attempted constructive criticism?
Just to reiterate, I have no beef with the Rockfax fellows, of course their intentions are good. If you cast your mind back through time, you'll easily be able to regail yourself with the memories of books and guidebooks that inspired you to climb in the first place. And they weren't botched jobs. They featured stunning photography as well as inspiring prose from some of the era's prominent (and less prominent) figures. See Hard Rock and co. See the historical notes sections in the F&RCC Lakes guides.
It's this missed opportunity that saddens me.
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Everyone else is still using annotated and tatty printed sheets off Lakesbloc.
And waiting for the local guide.... :-\
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Thanks for your feedback Monolith. I am not sure where you got this idea that we don't take criticism on board an act upon it. I think we have been doing that for years and are continuing to do so. There is plenty of feedback coming in via this web site and we have learnt a lot of lessons about how we should go about producing bouldering guides in the future.
I was puzzled by your opening comment about accepting advertising at the last minute. Firstly, in the world of guidebook publishing any alternative is impractical. We don't have advertising managers, nor do we have time to liaise and create the ads for people. The prices we charge, and the amounts the book makes, mean that it just isn't a viable proposition. If it is "commercial suicide" then we committed it on our first book in 1990 and have been doing it ever since. Secondly, the section you quote was not said by me, but said by Rupert.
Your design comments are almost certainly well merited since you come from a design background - I don't, and there isn't enough money in guidebooks to pay for a designer. If you wish to offer your services for free then I'd be happy to take on your advice, however I can understand fully if you don't want to do this. In the meantime we will just push on using whatever I can come up with. It may not set the visual design world alight, but I think you would have to admit that we have made some impact on useability. You may also have noticed that we have moved our design on with the latest series of books.
You also made some comments about the viability of guidebooks. Now I admit you probably know more about visual design than me, however I can assure you that I know a lot more about the economics and production of guidebooks than you. The scenario you paint isn't very realistic and there is nothing stopping anyone from producing a new book now and making a go of it. The main factor that dictates how well a guidebook sells, once you have scaled your print run to reflect the popularity of the area, is whether or not it is a good guidebook. The existence of other guidebooks has relatively little impact on sales.
As I said at the beginning, thanks for your comments and keep the feedback coming.
Alan
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Alan,
Thanks for your response to an issue that matters greatly to me.
I am not sure where you got this idea that we don't take criticism on board an act upon it.
My sentiment was referring to the act of criticism, i.e. doing it before you go to print. Understandably, budget constraints do not allow you to disseminate high volumes of copies for critical purposes, but a more profitable use of your funds would be perhaps to recruit a number of design-orientated individuals for this purpose, rather than sending them off to be reviewed by non-designers. And these days it need not even come down to exchanging any money at all. Briefly, the current crisis within the design world is a simple lack of work. That's why I'm sitting here trying to diversify my trade with other means, over one year on from completion of my degree. Given this crisis, there are countless skilled graphic designers and typographers who would be happy to assist you in many different ways with the production of a new guide. I can name countless extremely skilled 'designers' (quoted because they can't get a job) who would prize the opportunity to work on a nationally released guidebook. It's all about the unpaid work placements I'm afraid. And JSA staff certainly frown on any minute of your time devoted to trying to better yourself for a job. For free.
With respect, I wouldn't feel comfortable producing something that was going to cost money without seeking advice pre-general issue print.
Likewise, the photographic industry is I'm sure, in a similar state to the graphic design industry. So perhaps you could lodge posts on UKC and UKB for calls for talented individuals? It's become perfectly acceptable to recruit for unpaid placements, and bearing in mind that both you, and the 'talent' reap the respective rewards, I wouldn't hesitate about doing this. DO however, let the individual know of the time constraints that you are working to, and that if they are not comfortable with self-funding (maybe you could just offer expenses), then don't bother applying.
I apologise if my comments have come across unfavourably. They really aren't intended to be, and I hope in some way they may assist you in future guidebook productions. If you would like to speak to me on any matters to do with this, please feel free to drop me a PM and I will give you as much or as little information as you desire.
Regards.
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I appreciate your comments and I may get in touch.
Actually getting quality feedback from anyone is far from straightforward. Our main concern is with getting people who know the area, and who are good at spelling and grammar. This is a lot rarer than you might imagine - plenty promise it but few actually deliver and finding these qualities and someone who was good at design would probably be impossible.
Considering in the last 16 years we have almost consistently been praised on our functional design, and only ever received two comments (including yours) about bad visual design, you can see why it might not be that high on my priority list. I should also add that the other design comment came from someone whose own work I later saw - looked great but was very difficult to use.
Cheers
Alan
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Not a problem Alan. Amidst all the criticism being dished out, I have most likely failed to appreciate the administrative-type work that goes into producing the guide. As you say, if you're getting a lot of feedback, and only two people have mentioned this, then you're right, it shouldn't be your first priority.
But just to reiterate, take stock of the fact that you can get work done for free by enthusiastic and talented individuals. Even if it's not in the design stages, you should be able to get an educated eye to peruse over your guides.
We all want to see good guides being produced. It's just that some of us are a lot sadder than the rest of you and get up in arms when Comic Sans for instance, infiltrates our precious world of bouldering.
All the best.
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I am aware that our design has never really had a trained eye cast over it, and you are right to mention it. Some day I am sure I'll find time to discuss it with someone who knows what they are talking about, but I predict a strong difference of opinion.
As for the comicsans thing; bit of a low blow that one, it was done in 1998 after all - that's 8 years ago! Okay, so it is now the most mis-used font around, but in 1998 it was just another free font in Windows 98.
Cheers
Alan
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The campaign to banish Comic Sans has been running since its advent! And there's far more than one campaign to banish it. But yes, a low blow perhaps.
I wouldn't compare the guide to others, as that is an unfair means of assesment within this thread I believe. How the different guidebooks authors go about their business is unknown to me, and hence I am unwilling to comment.
..but I predict a strong difference of opinion.
Any designer worth their salt will correct you on design errors. There is for example, a whole history which covers the use of the grid in graphic design. They will know this, and how best to implement it, and it is unlikely that you will. An excellent book I recommend that you pick up a copy of is, How to be a Graphic Designer without losing your soul
by Adrian Shaughnessy. If you can comprehend the text from an 'outsiders' perspective, you will benefit greatly from it. For example, Shaughnessy talks of how the best designers are those that have the widest cultural and historical understanding. They are able to emulate particular patterns in design history at the drop of a hat for specific purposes (Typographers are the true masters of this).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Be-Graphic-Designer-Without/dp/1856694100
A climbing guide book is an exciting chance to produce something truly original. 'Information Architecture' is a big part of graphic design currently, and hence there are many ways to present data in unique ways. Again, obtain the text Mapping by Roger Fawcett-Tang to give you some ideas.
The more you can teach yourself, the more adept and confident you will be when immersing yourself in design-speak. Imperative, especially when on a tight budget and time is at a premium.
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It's just that some of us are a lot sadder than the rest of you and get up in arms when Comic Sans for instance, infiltrates our precious world of bouldering
Amen to that! Not in reference to Rockfax, more the whole world. “Look old timer it’s not cool! It ain't funky!! And it certainly
don't keep you down with the kids!!!" ;)
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Without designers, there wouldn't be any cool for the kids to possess in the first place ;)
But seriously though, there's moaners, and there's moaners with good intent. I'd like to think I'm the latter and still at least a bit hip at 23 :-[
In the satirical words of a non-Oxbridge chap I met at last years Oxbridge boat race:
"Yes I go to Oxford.....but I still know how to get down"
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:lol: :lol: :lol: