UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: monkoffunk on April 28, 2019, 02:04:00 am
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Non THC containing cannabinoid oil is a topic that I'm slightly surprised hasn't come up on here before, but I couldn't find a specific thread when I searched for it.
Cannabis in general has been discussed here:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,25303.0.html
The only reference to CBD I could find was here in the science thread with regards to oxidative stress following acute alcohol consumption, (other than some discussion of a route called central buttress direct). https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,12364.msg434024.html#msg434024
There is brief mention of cannabis/THC in these two threads although the focus is on steroids etc and more 'traditional' PEDs:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,28465.0.html
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9994.0.html
I imagine that CBD oil in climbing will be a whole thing before too long given its billing as the next big panacea for all ills, its easy availability over the counter in health food shops and online, and its use by some high profile bloggers and pro climbers e.g.:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwr6X_QAQ4T/?igshid=ixe806uyoct9
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwpH1BJFg2F/?igshid=1vrtl0vdsejzt
The legal state of these things isn't entirely clear although home office guidance (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/778357/Factsheet_Cannabis_CBD_and_Cannabinoids_2019.pdf) suggests not a chargeable offense to possess (as long as it is pure, not necessarily guaranteed).
That aside cannabinoids have good evidence for there use in certain kinds for epilepsy, there is evidence that they could/do have a role in anxiety and sleep, and certainly evidence that they have a role in inflammation. Whether this extends to aiding muscle recovery, as marketed, I think is much less clear. Certainly there is far more research to be done, and long term effects not totally clear.
Potential roles in climbing could then be, chilling out prior to a hard redpoint, to aid sleep, perhaps after particularly intense training, and maybe in recovery due to inflammatory modulation.
Whilst this sort of thing has been on my radar for a while due to a brother in law working with Amanda Feilding at the Beckley Foundation, I have no personal experience with its use. However, a friend recently took a dose of some Holland & Barrett stuff, describing a "mild body glow" and "chilled" with in 10 mins, lasting for maybe two hours, subtle, not like a trip at all. Interestingly he has social anxiety and generalised anxiety which was the reason he bought it in the first place, not climbing performance. More recently he has found his issues mostly solved with good old SSRIs.
Could the more sport related applications be considered cheating? The arguments about where to draw the line (supplements, caffeine etc.) have also been had before and probably its a personal line for most. As has been mentioned before in above threads cannabis has been generally tolerated by the 'climbing community'. The world anti-doping agency does not ban CBD although the risk of THC contamination makes it risky for a professional competitive athlete. See here:
https://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/cbd-products-what-are-they-and-can-i-take-them/
https://www.usada.org/six-things-know-about-cannabidiol/
So anybody have any experience or feedback? A good anecdote in the absence of solid scientific data? As UKB gradually enters its new age hippy phase its surely only a matter of time.
Some random evidence for above:
Epilepsy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604191/
Anxiety: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604171/
Sleep: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6326553/
Inflammation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2664885/
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Some feedback MoF.
What a brilliant post :thumbsup:
Loads to consider and review there.
I can certainly imagine that a reduction in anxiety will have a beneficial effect on recovery/sleep/preparation.
I'm just thinking on the hoof. I suspect therefore that any PE benefit may well be indirect, rather than attributable to CBD oil itself. Well, that's the question.
Re "good old SSRIs". Hmm :-\ I've steered clear of them for a long time, though often self medicate in other ways - as I can imagine many others do.
Thanks for raising. Will be interesting to hear what others do/don't think.
+1
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We use CBD's to help control seizures for our daughter. Whilst buying the cbd oil we sue for her, the shop gave a free container of cbd salve which i used for inflamed finger joints. I have definitely seen a difference in my synovitis as a result. n=1...
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I've tried it (drops of 8% CBD oil, held under the tongue for a couple of minutes), not for any climbing reasons, more to reduce my anxiety and see if it encouraged me to reduce my alcohol intake. Hard to describe the feeling - not high - not drunk - just "chilled" and, yes, perhaps a little less anxious than normal. A bit like the mellowness that floods in warmly after a first glass of wine / G&T after a lousy day (the feeling that's sadly subsumed by basic inebriation with the inevitable follow-up glasses). That said it was pretty subtle, I felt I had to reach a little to pin down the sensation, so I wasn't entirely convinced that I wasn't fooling myself - placebo effect and a subconscious desire for it to work.
There's lots of anecdotal testimony for the pain relief benefits, including by someone well known to fellow Yorkshire lime devotees.
https://www.thetonictribe.com/blog/anyone-suffering-with-pain-our-most-inspiring-tribe-member-tells-her-near-death-story-managing-pain/ (https://www.thetonictribe.com/blog/anyone-suffering-with-pain-our-most-inspiring-tribe-member-tells-her-near-death-story-managing-pain/)
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I've seen good results at work with people using CBD oil (drops under tongue) to help with cannabis withdrawal - probably very THC heavy skunk causing the problem in the first place
a few folks using it for recovering from other addictions - as mentioned, anxiety relief can be pretty good
some problematic use with people who find it enhances the codeine buzz - but no withdrawal symptoms that can be put down to the CBD oil
a couple of people with emotionally unstable personality disorder have said that it helps with relaxing, but not in crisis - and, as they said, "we're not very reliable subjects"
cost is the main issue with my clients - it's cheaper to be alcohol dependant on white cider than it is to buy CBD oil and at least you know when you're drunk
I haven't tried it
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Some feedback MoF.
What a brilliant post :thumbsup:
Loads to consider and review there.
I can certainly imagine that a reduction in anxiety will have a beneficial effect on recovery/sleep/preparation.
I'm just thinking on the hoof. I suspect therefore that any PE benefit may well be indirect, rather than attributable to CBD oil itself. Well, that's the question.
Re "good old SSRIs". Hmm :-\ I've steered clear of them for a long time, though often self medicate in other ways - as I can imagine many others do.
Thanks for raising. Will be interesting to hear what others do/don't think.
+1
Yes, I think that is probably right re indirect effects.
With regards to SSRIs it’s interesting, because you do hear very different things. I think simply it depends on context and right for some and not others. There is good evidence they do work, of course with all these things they will work for some and not others and effects can be hard to untangle. My friend who benefited has previously benefited from a single dose of a psychedelic which he described as a switch being flicked, and a recent relapse has responded well to SSRIs. Other friends have felt stuck on drugs they can’t stop but don’t feel help them at all!
Of course when it comes to CBD it probably has some really good potential therapeutic effects for anxiety disorders. For climbing you are more talking about a performance anxiety which isn’t really a disorder at all! Not something then you’d need to be dosing regularly then, just get that one off benefit.
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I've tried it (drops of 8% CBD oil, held under the tongue for a couple of minutes), not for any climbing reasons, more to reduce my anxiety and see if it encouraged me to reduce my alcohol intake. Hard to describe the feeling - not high - not drunk - just "chilled" and, yes, perhaps a little less anxious than normal. A bit like the mellowness that floods in warmly after a first glass of wine / G&T after a lousy day (the feeling that's sadly subsumed by basic inebriation with the inevitable follow-up glasses). That said it was pretty subtle, I felt I had to reach a little to pin down the sensation, so I wasn't entirely convinced that I wasn't fooling myself - placebo effect and a subconscious desire for it to work.
There's lots of anecdotal testimony for the pain relief benefits, including by someone well known to fellow Yorkshire lime devotees.
https://www.thetonictribe.com/blog/anyone-suffering-with-pain-our-most-inspiring-tribe-member-tells-her-near-death-story-managing-pain/ (https://www.thetonictribe.com/blog/anyone-suffering-with-pain-our-most-inspiring-tribe-member-tells-her-near-death-story-managing-pain/)
Sounds a lot like the description I heard! Also mentioned that you almost needed to focus to be aware something was different. Can’t necessarily discount the benefit of the placebo effect, but as lager says it’s pretty expensive.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BwpH1BJFg2F/
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I love the Cheech and Chong style comments section. This one made me chuckle-
nurkdurk
@seanbastard I prefer pcp for mad strength and not noticing my pulleys have exploded
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BwpH1BJFg2F/
but that's just marketing.
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the shop gave a free container of cbd salve which i used for inflamed finger joints. I have definitely seen a difference in my synovitis as a result. n=1...
You continued to use this and notice benefits Sasquatch? Anyone else tried this for joint inflammation?
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Saw Ondra hawking some of this kind of stuff on Insta the other day. Seems like more snake oil in the same vein as the collagen stuff but who knows.
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Saw Ondra hawking some of this kind of stuff on Insta the other day. Seems like more snake oil in the same vein as the collagen stuff but who knows.
I saw Pucc hawking CBD jelly bears the other day - for those who are fans of the gummi bear/jelly baby...
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It was Ondra's post that gave me the idea actually. Not convinced w.r.t. recovery, but there are some papers out there on inflammation, e.g.:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2828614/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7463000/
Unfortunately they get complex quickly (certainly beyond my biology/chemistry) and often involve rats so I thought I'd defer to anecdote from ukb :lol:
The bit about "CBD possesses anti-arthritic activity and might ameliorate arthritis via targeting synovial fibroblasts under inflammatory conditions." - caught my eye. I think Volker wrote my finger down as capsulitis rather than synovitis, but it's not clear to me how much cross over there is in diagnosis and likely impact of something like this..
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I bought some of Pucc's gummies to see if they'd help with recovery and I have to say, I saw more results than I have with Collagen...
After a session once, I had some pulley / tendon pain from some irritated flexor tendon. I took a gummy (10mg CBD) and the pain was gone within 5 mins. I think it was likely due to the anti- inflammatory properties or maybe the natural pain relief that is quoted?
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I took a gummy (10mg CBD) and the pain was gone within 5 mins.
The idea of eating a single, pro-climber endorsed, CBD-laced gummy bear as a post-climbing recovery aid is already funny, but it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
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it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
Got comfortable in an armchair, applied tourniquet to arm, injected liquidised gummy bear, came up smiling 3 days later ready to crush.
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After a session once, I had some pulley / tendon pain from some irritated flexor tendon. I took a gummy (10mg CBD) and the pain was gone within 5 mins. I think it was likely due to the anti- inflammatory properties or maybe the natural pain relief that is quoted?
Maybe it was because you laughed your ass off, then went about your day. After eating a packet of Space Raiders and a Fudge.
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it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
Got comfortable in an armchair, applied tourniquet to arm, injected liquidised gummy bear, came up smiling 3 days later ready to crush.
Most definitely chewed ;D
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Space raiders for recovery? Just need somè wad on camera endorsing them and some SCIENCE and im gonna be rich.
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Thanks for taking time out from your gummy-induced remake of trainspotting for the reply Coops... it's the inflammation I'm particularly interested in (that's my big issue). Might be worth a punt given it's not that expensive (at least vs injections, seeing consultants etc)
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it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
Got comfortable in an armchair, applied tourniquet to arm, injected liquidised gummy bear, came up smiling 3 days later ready to crush.
Most definitely chewed ;D
Did it taste nice? I'm wondering if they come in super sour / tangfastic
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it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
Got comfortable in an armchair, applied tourniquet to arm, injected liquidised gummy bear, came up smiling 3 days later ready to crush.
Most definitely chewed ;D
Did it taste nice? I'm wondering if they come in super sour / tangfastic
Coke, sorry cola bottle? :)
Seriously though - these sound great!!
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it’s the use of the verb “took” that really makes this. Did you chew it or put it at the back of your tongue and wash it down with water? ;)
Got comfortable in an armchair, applied tourniquet to arm, injected liquidised gummy bear, came up smiling 3 days later ready to crush.
Most definitely chewed ;D
Did it taste nice? I'm wondering if they come in super sour / tangfastic
Coke, sorry cola bottle? :)
Seriously though - these sound great!!
Nah they're tasty - can taste a bit of tang from the oil that's somehow contained in the gummy but mostly taste like a sugary sweet
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I had to unfollow Ondra because of all his new CBD and eating cricket protein marketing stuff. I preferred his climbing stuff where he moaned about conditions all the time. As climbers I think we are desperate to believe in anything that is going to fix our f**ked joints. No amount a CBD jelly babies is going to fix fingers suffering from an inflammatory disorder after years of abuse. However, if you believe that it is doing something, then maybe it is worth it and it may reduce the psychological aspect of pain as opposed to the mechanical function of your phalangeal structures.
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It was Ondra's post that gave me the idea actually. Not convinced w.r.t. recovery, but there are some papers out there on inflammation, e.g.:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2828614/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7463000/
Unfortunately they get complex quickly (certainly beyond my biology/chemistry) and often involve rats so I thought I'd defer to anecdote from ukb :lol:
The bit about "CBD possesses anti-arthritic activity and might ameliorate arthritis via targeting synovial fibroblasts under inflammatory conditions." - caught my eye. I think Volker wrote my finger down as capsulitis rather than synovitis, but it's not clear to me how much cross over there is in diagnosis and likely impact of something like this..
The pharmacology is well outside my field.
On my home territory, CBD is a popular chronic pain medication. This isn't surprising given how ineffective (and/or addictive/rife with nasty side effects) the other managements are. The image of a 'natural' and 'alternative' product untainted by Big Pharma plays well with many. Self-medicating with cannabis has been popular for ever.
The meta-analyses give CBD for pain cautious support for a small effect, with a caveat that there are lots of small, low quality, low-power studies. This is very likely to exaggerate effectiveness. You could make a comparison with the status of glucosamine for joint pain c.10 years ago: vaguely plausible biochemical pathway, lots of breathless anecdote, a few small scale industry supported studies showing positive effects. Once the larger, independent, well-conducted studies were done it was clearly no better than placebo.
It's worth noting most over-the-counter products have a much lower dose than used in the trials and drug interactions (eg with alcohol) are largely unknown.
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In my limited experience of completely spannering my back (I think exacerbated to above regular spannering levels by too many Florida thrill rides) getting some CBD Oil on it with a local Chiropractor (closest thing I could find to help in the local phone book) certainly got it back to manageable levels faster than anything else I've used before. (n=1 etc apply).
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Cheers all. I've ordered a few products (both oral and topical) to try so will report back on if there's any notable impact...
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too many Florida thrill rides
Is this more lingo? Anyone know how many gummies you can take without feeling like a couple of fortnights in a bad balloon?
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Nothing like that! Just a week and a half at Disney and Universal.
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You could always plant (illegal) some (legal) CBD self flowering seeds and watch them grow (illegal)........ :spank:
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Just reporting back for future forum browsers who may be interested in experimenting with this:
I've been stacking up oral and topical CBD for the last 4 days. Baseline morning swelling in the joint is slightly (but noticeably) better than last week. Significant caveat: I have an undiagnosed* swelling flare-up in the adjacent finger which also started receding on the weekend, so my there are multiple things at play here.
*Happens sporadically, doesn't normally cause issues in the chronic injury, but then that's not been as bad as it currently is when I've had flare-ups in the past. GPs prescribe or test for various things, don't get an answer, then it goes away so I stop bothering them
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The meta-analyses give CBD for pain cautious support for a small effect, with a caveat that there are lots of small, low quality, low-power studies. This is very likely to exaggerate effectiveness. You could make a comparison with the status of glucosamine for joint pain c.10 years ago: vaguely plausible biochemical pathway, lots of breathless anecdote, a few small scale industry supported studies showing positive effects. Once the larger, independent, well-conducted studies were done it was clearly no better than placebo.
Presumably this is pharmacology basics, but strikes me both could be right. I.e. how do studies control for the strength of the placebo effect? I take a few supplements (on and off) on the basis that they may well be no better than placebo, but coupled with me knowing there is a vaguely plausible biochemical pathway the placebo effect is likely to be stronger?
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Presumably this is pharmacology basics, but strikes me both could be right. I.e. how do studies control for the strength of the placebo effect? I take a few supplements (on and off) on the basis that they may well be no better than placebo, but coupled with me knowing there is a vaguely plausible biochemical pathway the placebo effect is likely to be stronger?
Placebo seems to be an expectation effect (there are also blood biochemistry changes, it’s not just ‘in the mind’ if that’s important to people). More credible treatments have stronger effects. There are not many true placebo surgery trials (opening someone up and stitching them back together without doing anything has considerable ethical implications!) but, when done, surgery is a very strong placebo as it is a very credible treatment. Believing there is a plausible biochemical pathway in CBD will likely increase a placebo effect. (The converse, nocebo effects, are also common: headaches and chest pains are frequently reported by drug trial participants who got the sugar pill rather than the real thing because they expect this. Many drug side effects are likely to be nocebo.)
Controlling for placebo is really important. To do this effectively the sham treatment must be credible. The dirty secret of much research is when participants recognise the sham treatment is inferior. Many vaccine recipients have side effects which will tell them pretty clearly if they had the real treatment or not in vaccine research. The AZ covid trial got round this by using a hepatitis vaccine with similar side effects as control. One of the problems with lower quality studies is a failure of adequate hiding which is the sham treatment which overestimates the true effect as the real treatment is helped by placebo but the sham isn’t. I bet much CBD research falls down here.
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Does the placebo effect still work when you don't expect / believe there will be a benefit?
I'm aware that Nurofen works better than Asda Ibuprofen because people believe it's better.
My gf has had back issues on-off for years, and has been to various specialists, had scans, and measurements, potions and exercises. She was at a physio appointment that was meant to be with the physio she'd seen before, but had called in sick. The replacement guy said - "what is your issue"
"back"
"have you tried acupuncture"
"no, scared and not convinced it will work"
"i give you acupuncture".
"er, ok"
Back fixed. Strangely, she felt a real hotspot when he put the needle into the specific muscle that always spasms, it got very hot and tense then eased. Afterwards, she's barely had a relapse in a year and a half, and when she feels it come on, she seems to be able to fend it off now.
All very odd as we both don't really "believe" in acupuncture. I have wondered since if maybe it's something to do with conductivity and muscle motors, something that can maybe break an overly sensitive motor unit?
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"have you tried acupuncture"
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All very odd as we both don't really "believe" in acupuncture. I have wondered since if maybe it's something to do with conductivity and muscle motors, something that can maybe break an overly sensitive motor unit?
Interesting. I went for a few sessions of acupuncture at a local "sports physio" for my tennis elbow and it helped fuck all. An incredibly painful massage from a different guy who loosened up all the muscles in my forearm did.
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RE: Acupuncture - I had/still have no belief in it - however had some on my lower back 5 years ago and it did more than any massage did...
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Thanks Duncan, good info.
On Acupuncture, last time I looked it was on a more solid footing evidence-wise than, say, homeopathy, but as an actual physical intervention it presumably benefits from a strong placebo effect. I've found needling useful in the past, and studies where they needle randomly vs at the acupuncture points would seem to discount the 'theory' rather than the practice.
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Does the placebo effect still work when you don't expect / believe there will be a benefit?
Yes it can do. Google 'open-label placebo'.