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the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: shark on June 12, 2019, 11:06:48 am

Title: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: shark on June 12, 2019, 11:06:48 am
Was at Malham yesterday and bumped into Ben and Zips and they’ve got a challenge for UKB.  :boxing:

How many uk sport routes have Font 8A or harder moves on them?

They came up with13 definite and 5 possibles.

Can you name the routes and even add to the list?

I’ll get their list at the end of the week..
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: SamT on June 12, 2019, 11:13:59 am

The Bastard?
Hubble?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: shark on June 12, 2019, 11:18:02 am

The Bastard?
Hubble?

Got to be
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: teestub on June 12, 2019, 11:21:04 am
Hunger - The Anvil
Mutation?
Meltdown?
Big Bang?
Violent New Breed  :worms:
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Teaboy on June 12, 2019, 11:37:50 am
Big bang was touted as 7c+ in an old OTE article about the hardest routes.

Rainshadow
Overshadow
Rainman
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ru on June 12, 2019, 11:39:23 am
Routes with single moves that are font 8a? I reckon none.

Routes with boulder sections that are 8a? Gets a bit vague as to what counts as a boulder, but:

Hubble, Bastard, Overshadow, Evolution (and Devo etc - these used to be considered 7c+, but opinions seems to be changing), Mutation (for the top crux - only 9a with 2 font 8a sections joined by an 8b with no rest?), Rainshadow depending on who you ask, Rainman, Rooster Crossing (bet that's not on their list), Hooligan, that thing of Polish Dave's that starts to the left and goes into it, things on the Anvil, Tonto at the Hollywood Bowl, Barracuda before the pocket got bigger, maybe Liquid Ambar?, the crux of Transform is probably 8a in new money, maybe the middle section of the Meltdown?, Pump up the Power if it wasn't Pump up the Power, Seans Roof climbed as a route.

There must be loads more, especially if you count longer 10-13 move sections (that are still shorter than many long boulders). I ought to do some work.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 11:49:08 am
Big bang was touted as 7c+ in an old OTE article about the hardest routes.



That quote and pics of Moony were with a duff sequence. Think it might be 7c at the top or easier.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 11:50:12 am
Pump up the Jam, pigeons would prob qualify. 2 bolt 8c. 
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 11:51:39 am
The crux section of Liquid Ambar is 7C+ probs. Sea of Tranquility is basically a boulder problem and meant to be 8A. Diamond Dogs has a 8A section on it I think.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 11:53:48 am
Also Empire State at the diamond. 8A off the ground to a jug then 8a to top.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Nutty on June 12, 2019, 11:54:57 am
Fight the Feeling?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 12, 2019, 01:00:07 pm
Jehovakill at The Tor.

One of John W's - after I'd had the vision to bolt it 😉 - that Zipps informs me is now considered 8A. Route 8b+.

I think this is a good example; probably 4/5 moves.

Really annoying that this now suffers from the dreaded Raven Tor gop, at the LH end.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: r-man on June 12, 2019, 02:23:12 pm
Hooligan, that thing of Polish Dave's that starts to the left and goes into it

Wild West. I checked with Dawid - it doesn't share any of Hooligan.

https://youtu.be/_RqcChYRSUA
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ally Smith on June 12, 2019, 02:36:59 pm
Alex's links of Keen Roof/Chimes (8c+) & Belly of the Beast/Waddage (9a "Belly's Gonna Get Yer") at the tor.

Multiple things in Parisella's that use the bolted finish, e.g.
- Final Cut (8c)
- A Familiar Atrocity (8c+)
- Bonnie Extension (8c)
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: GraemeA on June 12, 2019, 03:57:55 pm
Disappointed. I thought it was going to be questions like:

1. Where did Ben write off his Sirocco?
2. Who lived in the cellar of 84 Hunter House Rd? (one of Zippy's old addresses)
etc
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ally Smith on June 12, 2019, 04:11:57 pm
Ooops - Zippy is going to be annoyed - we've forgotten his route:

Make it Funky at the tor

Which means the extension, Mega Whore (also 8c) must also have an 8A section.

Also, doesn't Ellis Butler-B's route down at Anstey's have an 8A crux? "Ali Bomaye", 8c
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: remus on June 12, 2019, 05:13:12 pm
Seems a bit weird including boulder problem + route linkups (e.g. Belly's gonna get ya, those things in the cave of justice). Seems there's a risk of the list getting bloated with linkups. Perhaps have some criteria that it can't be an extension of a boulder problem? Though that does feel a bit unfair for stuff like Wild West which you could easily look at as a route with a hard start.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 05:31:40 pm
Link ups are fine but I wouldn’t include the hybrids.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ru on June 12, 2019, 05:54:32 pm
Don't think Make it Funky is 8a. Or Jehovahkill. They might be in modern grades I suppose. We've all done easier ones in Switzerland. Seraphim might be 8a in retrospect.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: User deactivated on June 12, 2019, 06:51:26 pm
Agree with Doyle. I wouldn't include any of the cave ones barring maybe Bonnie Extension which I think i'd include personally, it feels like climbing a route. It is far from over after doing bonnie the next bit is real hard and you have a rope on the whole way. The other two are arbitrary climbing on top of boulder problems.   
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: mrjonathanr on June 12, 2019, 06:51:57 pm
Disappointed. I thought it was going to be questions like:

1. Where did Ben write off his Sirocco?
2. Who lived in the cellar of 84 Hunter House Rd? (one of Zippy's old addresses)
etc


Is it Yorik? Not sure about the Scirocco. What about your intimate family tree of Sheffield, surely must be some mind map software to allow for revisions and updating?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 12, 2019, 07:08:30 pm
Don't think Make it Funky is 8a. Or Jehovahkill. They might be in modern grades I suppose. We've all done easier ones in Switzerland. Seraphim might be 8a in retrospect.

.. or anything else Ru has done?  :-\  ;)
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: haydn jones on June 12, 2019, 08:28:44 pm
Don't think Make it Funky is 8a. Or Jehovahkill. They might be in modern grades I suppose. We've all done easier ones in Switzerland. Seraphim might be 8a in retrospect.

I'm calling bull on this not being a font 8A. I spent 8 days on this and never managed to even stick the ear let alone get to the jug, this was in the period when I was doing font 8A in a session and did keen roof and fat lip in 3 sessions.

Definitely 8A boulder and only about 10 moves to the jug from the group which makes it not even that long of a boulder.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: teestub on June 12, 2019, 09:39:33 pm
You must have only been climbing modern grading 8A’s 😂
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Doylo on June 12, 2019, 09:56:28 pm
Ru only deals in old money.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: haydn jones on June 12, 2019, 10:38:51 pm
In fairness It depends how you break it down.

I always thought of it as 7B to the undercuts, then 7C+ to the jug, then 7A+ to the top. But between the 7B and 7C+ there's not really a rest so is logical to think of it as a single 8A boulder.

I guess it's going back to the point earlier In the thread that says what counts as a boulder.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Stu Littlefair on June 12, 2019, 10:55:16 pm
Are you talking about MIF Haydn? It’s definitely not 8A, you’re just too tall.

Go try seraphim...  :o
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: shark on June 12, 2019, 11:27:04 pm
Remus - you going to compile the list on this ?  :yes:

Remember folks what would Ben and Zips think?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ru on June 13, 2019, 07:09:21 am
In fairness It depends how you break it down.

I always thought of it as 7B to the undercuts, then 7C+ to the jug, then 7A+ to the top. But between the 7B and 7C+ there's not really a rest so is logical to think of it as a single 8A boulder.

I guess it's going back to the point earlier In the thread that says what counts as a boulder.

I think that's right, overall there must be the equivalent of at least 8As worth of climbing or it wouldn't be 8c, but it depends how you define the boulder bit. I agree with your breakdown. We always thought the section undercuts to jug was 7C+.

I thought Seraphim was about 7C+ into 7B+/C with a clipping hold in between, which would be 8A/+ as a whole thing, but it's 18 moves from floor to jug. Broken down like that 8b+ seems a bit mean, but there you go. I was a bit scared of giving out grades above 8b/+ when I did it because Evolution was given 8c.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: T_B on June 13, 2019, 11:04:59 am
PUTPBand is 18 moves and breaks down as 7B into 7C+. Or 8A+/F8c.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: SA Chris on June 13, 2019, 11:41:58 am
Would any of the short steep hard things at Dumbuck have 8A sections?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 13, 2019, 01:02:01 pm
Don't think Make it Funky is 8a. Or Jehovahkill. They might be in modern grades I suppose. We've all done easier ones in Switzerland. Seraphim might be 8a in retrospect.

I'm calling bull on this not being a font 8A. I spent 8 days on this and never managed to even stick the ear let alone get to the jug, this was in the period when I was doing font 8A in a session and did keen roof and fat lip in 3 sessions.

Definitely 8A boulder and only about 10 moves to the jug from the group which makes it not even that long of a boulder.

Braver than me to just call it as it is Haydn!

Re Jehovakill, that's what was relayed to me, and compared to other things I've tried, doesn't seem very far out.

It's a really interesting discussion overall though - how the various longer sequences stack up.

There's a different way to explore this - I know it wasn't necessarily the intention behind the thread - but you could ask "What routes do you need to be bouldering 8A for, before you try them?".

Is there a barrier to entry/engagement? Is this an argument between Ben and Zipps - Zippy/5c Mark trying to claim that everything can be broken down to sequential 5c?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Ru on June 13, 2019, 02:22:01 pm

Re Jehovakill, that's what was relayed to me, and compared to other things I've tried, doesn't seem very far out.


I've done Jehovahkill - 8A isn't that far out. Depends again on which sections you are counting. The whole thing is at least 8A, the crux few moves a bit easier. I thought there were two blocs the lower crux being about 7C+, but this was 16 years ago. I feel old.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: nai on June 13, 2019, 02:44:52 pm

Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about but as it's not been mentioned what about Northern Lights, or is that a stamina plod?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 13, 2019, 06:49:32 pm

Re Jehovakill, that's what was relayed to me, and compared to other things I've tried, doesn't seem very far out.


I've done Jehovahkill - 8A isn't that far out. Depends again on which sections you are counting. The whole thing is at least 8A, the crux few moves a bit easier. I thought there were two blocs the lower crux being about 7C+, but this was 16 years ago. I feel old.

Hi Ru.

That sounds reasonable, although the route is very short (6 moves?) and I'd have thought worth treating as one boulder?

.. and anyway, I gave Jerry a rope on it, and all of a sudden, the lower bloc didn't seem to exist at all.

That was thirty years ago!!

Thoughts about Hubble? I've heard 7C+ after the move into the two finger undercut.

I find it difficult to apply boulder grades to routes - similar to the problem of applying sport lime grades to grit routes. Adding a rope and harness can make a huge difference to how much you anticipate success.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: remus on June 13, 2019, 07:45:29 pm
Remus - you going to compile the list on this ?  :yes:

Ask and ye shall receive https://github.com/bourbonspecial/BritishBoulderRoutes/blob/master/bbr.md

24 routes (including a couple of question marks).
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Nike Air on June 14, 2019, 08:01:05 am
Hmmm I had 22 on my list.
Don't know much about the Scottish ones though...?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: shark on June 14, 2019, 09:01:43 am
Nice one Remus

Been in touch with Zippy. Think UKB did well.  :clap2:

They didn’t get the one at Pigeon’s or the Diamond.

He reckons Make it Funky or Mega Whore not both and probably not 8A anyway

Suggested Bristol’s Got Talent and Three Spheres as well. Also maybe Meltdown and the Very Big and the Very Small.

Honorary mention for Steve’s new Nesscliffe route

Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: teestub on June 14, 2019, 09:34:01 am


Honorary mention for Steve’s new Nesscliffe route

The trad routes with 8A climbing list would be interesting, I guess a lot of them would be things in the County which are more usually approached as big boulder problems? Likewise for Samson, Superstition, etc. in the peak.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Fiend on June 14, 2019, 10:36:13 am
From what I recall Meltdown is a 7C+ crux. With a bit more hard climbing after ;).

Great call Teestub - it should be restricted to actual trad above gear rather than highballs. That wild prow at Back Bowden is mean to be 8B, above bomber gear.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: carlisle slapper on June 14, 2019, 12:34:10 pm
Purgatory is easier than Transcendence. Font 7Cish. I think the only font 8 in the county which has been lead is Grim Creeper and i untied on the slab so it wasn't fully lead. I had a quick look into it after doing Transcendence and there was no real contenders for true roped trad 8's in england/wales but i didn't look too hard north of the border. The rack is considered 8A nowadays and features right at the end of a tricky traverse, but like everything a rope wasn't involved and we all know climbing magically changes once one is involved. i'd guess there are around 800 font 8 boulders in the UK if the EUKBI list got updated, we should bolt a few to help the cause.

The crux of Hunger and Blood Diamond seemed fair at 8A when i had a look after the hold broke, i've not been back since 2013 though

<off topic>
are there many 9's in the uk which don't have any glue holding holds on/ or changing their nature or "selective cleaning"?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Fiend on June 14, 2019, 12:41:30 pm
My mistake, Purgatory was originally given 8A+....

Edit: Also if there aren't any Font 8A upwards trad routes, you need to pull your finger out :P. Surely now you're a dad hard moves above bomber gear are more sensible than 10m spine-twisting highballs...
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 14, 2019, 01:01:36 pm
it should be restricted to actual trad above gear rather than highballs.

I find this interesting.

Consider Careless at Stanage, which, as I understand it, wasn't climbed as a "highball" (highbail?  ;) ). ie no pads involved on the FA. I appreciate it does break down to 7C? after the start, but sounds fair to call it 8A for the full tick.

Hooligan gets it's 8A+ for the start, and whilst the rope is needed to complete the route, the roped climbing isn't the barrier - the significance here being that, although Careless is claimed as a highball now - with loads of pads - it wasn't originally, and in my view is more of a contender than Hooligan.

Therefore, I'd say, if climbed as a route then it counts - whether there is a rope at a critical point or not.

If the crux/8A part constitutes a headpoint by virtue of the way it's climbed, then I'd say it absolutely does count - because you've got to be solid on the 8A climbing. That's in the same way that climbing with a rope at 8A requires a higher level of operation to make significant progress.

As an aside, Hooligan start is one of those problems where pulling on with a pad is significantly easier than without.. which I've tried often  ;)
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: teestub on June 14, 2019, 01:22:56 pm
I wonder if Rob would have used pads for Careless if they existed at the time? Jumping from higher and higher off NTBTA to test your landing seems similar to a highballing mindset.
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: georgenorth on June 14, 2019, 02:55:36 pm
I had a quick look into it after doing Transcendence and there was no real contenders for true roped trad 8's in england/wales but i didn't look too hard north of the border.
Any idea about Welcome to the Cruel World? Looks pretty bouldery...
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 14, 2019, 03:27:35 pm
I wonder if Rob would have used pads for Careless if they existed at the time? Jumping from higher and higher off NTBTA to test your landing seems similar to a highballing mindset.

The significance isn't the mindset as much as whether you can try moves on a low percentage basis.

Trying low percentage moves in extremis - whether on a rope, or in any other situation where pulling on/falling is a major pain in the bum - is what I think makes the difference, rather than necessarily what constitutes a highball or not.

I was using Careless as an example, although Ron used a different sequence/method on the start IIRC. (Easier for him?)
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: remus on June 16, 2019, 05:42:46 pm
https://github.com/bourbonspecial/BritishBoulderRoutes/blob/master/bbr.md

Added in Bristols got talent as I know the hard section is short and bouldery and the lack of ascents suggests it is pretty tricky. Happy to take it off if anyone's tried it and has some knowledge?

Anyone want to confirm Three Spheres? Seems like it'd be pretty sandbagged at 8b if it does have an 8A boulder!

I've left off Meltdown and TVBATVS, unless anyone wants to make an argument for them to be on the list?
Title: Re: Zippy / Ben Moon trivia challenge!
Post by: Nigel on June 16, 2019, 06:24:00 pm
I've left off Meltdown and TVBATVS, unless anyone wants to make an argument for them to be on the list?

Been on both - you're right to leave them both off.
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