UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => equipment => Topic started by: Doylo on July 26, 2014, 09:45:19 pm
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I'm after a shoe for steep limestone, like a 5.10 team but with a better heel would be ideal (preferably with rubber on the toe). Any suggestions?
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Wear Boreal and pretend you've done all your projects when nobody was there?
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Wear Boreal and pretend you've done all your projects when nobody was there?
I can't I'm a Christian ;)
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Me too. More American Hustle than American Psycho these days though...
(http://baleheadsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/935381-american-hustle.jpg)
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Flip flops. Ultimate hustler potential.
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Join the queue, I've been waiting a long time...
I'm quite enjoying my (new color) blackwings as a more comfortable alternative to dragons these days but it seems that if you have five ten feet there's nothing about at the moment.
I'm looking forward to the arrival of the five ten hiangle. A leather slipper built on the dragon last. Have you ever tried the solutions? I probably would have switched by now if the solutions didn't aggravate one of my toenails on one foot.
I haven't tried any on yet but I'm hoping to stop in banana fingers and try on the nexxo and booster vs.
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I thought about solutions but reluctant to buy without seeing if they're up to the task. As it happens I'm having to wear whites because the sag in the heel works so well on this spike. Not ideal for the rest of the route though.
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I mostly wear teams and Dragons and I really like the Sportiva pythons for the heel, they're not as down turned as the dragons but I never popped off a toe hold in them that I didn't in the others as well, and they RRP at £95!
Good luck finding a place that sells em though, I had to order mine through work, if you decide to take a punt on the web I'm a 7.5 in Dragons as they are now, 8 in the teams and 38.5 in the pythons.
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The heel in the Solutions is bomber but not for every placement. Being rounded has to be worked very well, but then it will stay there. Lots of stretch though and not precise as Teams and Dragons.
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Scarpa Instinct VS?
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Scarpa Instinct VS?
Was just thinking that... I've found the heel to be very snug on them.. not as 'pointy' as the heel on a Dragon, but has proved very effective so far..
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I never quite liked the scarpa vs, I found them to be a really weird level of stiffness and never really got much power from the toe. Have also heard stories of the toe rubber not being durable but perhaps this isn't a universal problem?
The way I look at it, top climbers *generally* wear Five ten Dragons/Teams/Whites depending on terrain or La Sportiva Solution/testarossa/futura/muira VS and they must choose these models for a reason. If you've never tried on a solution before you definitely should.
I've used around 25 models of shoes in the 5 years I've been climbing (mainly just used them until I decided I don't like them and sold them on) and the solution is by far the most comfortable performance shoe I've ever tried on. I even considered having the toenail it aggravates permanently removed just so I could wear them! The plastic moulded mid-sole in the solution forces your toes into this curled position but not your standard 'bunched up in a tight shoe position' it's hard to explain but it forces my toenails down into the sole even if my nails are very short! It's Dragons/Teams/Blackwings for me until something better comes out.
As it happens, I think the solution is very good on spikes. I was working a problem with someone where my dragon/blackwing heel was just sliding off of a spike because it was so soft, whereas the solid heel of the solution didn't budge at all and being solid, was far less painful. I've considered buying a pair of shoes with a more solid heel just for these situations (which seems to happen more on edgy granite or limestone), something cheap like a python.
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The way I look at it, top climbers *generally* wear Five ten Dragons/Teams/Whites depending on terrain or La Sportiva Solution/testarossa/futura/muira VS and they must choose these models for a reason.
That reason being that they get them for free? There a plenty of pros not sponsored by those two companies who seem to do OK.
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That reason being that they get them for free? There a plenty of pros not sponsored by those two companies who seem to do OK.
I never said sponsored, I just mean top performing climbers. People climbing the intermediate/high font grades must still have a good idea of what makes a shoe good. I've forgot my 'best' shoes before and had to make do with my old/crappy warm-up shoes, etc and it doesn't usually have a massive effect on my climbing but I wouldn't want to do it all the time. Climbing in shoes that don't feel right isn't pleasant, well in my opinion anyway.
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I was also speaking generally, of course there are other good shoes out there but you mostly see the ones mentioned with some of the scarpas breaking onto the scene. You even see these Boreal things sometimes, or is that just Mr and Mrs Buys?! :shrug:
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The thing is with heels is that it's specific to the placement on the rock. Sometimes you need a snug fit and good shape and others (like in my case) you need a bit of sag to hook on to something spikey. The best general heel hooking shoe in the world could still be useless on a specific hook. This stuff can make the difference at your limit. I'm always making modifications to boots. Team/Dragons are wank heels tho IMO and no good on hard/tricky placements.
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I'm always making modifications to my boots too. Couldn't get my heel to sit at the bottom of the shoe in my blackwings so I cut the material away down to the ankle wrap-around band so my heel now fits in perfectly. Dragons are a lot lower anyway so I didn't need to do anything to those. Had to do the same thing to my Jet 7's. I need to find a decent glue that will still rubber to the toe area now. Haven't managed that one yet.
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Two part glue does the job, you can get it from B n Q or even supermarkets. Usually comes with a nozzle you screw on and is more than strong enough for gluing rubber on toes. I wear the shoe when i'm gluing but it can get a bit hot as the glue sets!
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Didn't Dylan burn himself doing that?
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The thing is with heels is that it's specific to the placement on the rock. Sometimes you need a snug fit and good shape and others (like in my case) you need a bit of sag to hook on to something spikey. The best general heel hooking shoe in the world could still be useless on a specific hook. This stuff can make the difference at your limit. I'm always making modifications to boots. Team/Dragons are wank heels tho IMO and no good on hard/tricky placements.
Shoes are definitely a tool that depends on the job, that being said I think the teams have the best all round heel except when the anasazi baggy bit catches. Would also say the pythons are great all round, definitely my favourite general shoe.
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Brave, I just pack out the shoe with newspaper.
I think my problem is the rubber I've been using is too thin. Perfect for comfort but it's quite stretchy, I think I'll have to use rand rubber in future.
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I'm a big fan/convert of the instinct VS Chris. Given them a good beating in the cave and elsewhere and they haven't fell apart or worn through the toe box rubber which feels quite thin when new.
They are quite stiff like, so not as easy to get on with straight away and take a fair amount of time to feel soft enough for shit smears (where I'd still prefer a team instead). The heel fits really well for me compared to teams and dragons and isn't the hard cup of the old style solutions. They are really comfortable too for a toe down and don't crush the little toe either.
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And at circa £100 + a pair they definitiely they are definitely a steep rock shoe.
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I disagree with the solutions having a decent heel for heel hooking. I think they're generally crap at heel hoking evn though they're my favorite shoe.
On any marginal placement they're rubbish. They have a hard heel cup that doesn't mold at all.
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:boxing:
I disagree with the solutions having a decent heel for heel hooking. I think they're generally crap at heel hoking evn though they're my favorite shoe.
On any marginal placement they're rubbish. They have a hard heel cup that doesn't mold at all.
Interesting, I guess down pointers and good heels don't go hand in hand.
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I know quite a few people who seem to like them for heel hooking, but IMO, those folks are generally rubbish at heel hooks. The one good thing is because of the hard heel, if it's a painful placement, they can be wonderful.
This is all with the old colutions as the new ones are narrower and don't fit my feet anymore. I've got a pair of Instinct vs' on order and wil be testing them in squamish for a week, the home of heel hooks. I'll let you know how they do.
My preference for an in between shoe is the Miura VS. Awesome heel, and great performance on all but the steepest stuff.
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I disagree with the solutions having a decent heel for heel hooking. I think they're generally crap at heel hoking evn though they're my favorite shoe.
On any marginal placement they're rubbish. They have a hard heel cup that doesn't mold at all.
I didn't say they were good overall, just that they are good on painful spikes. I see a lot of people's heels pop on plastic but not so much outdoors when there's good friction. I don't wear them so can't give that much info on them, other than what I found in the few weeks I owned them. Personally I don't like the vibram rubbers, all the 5.10 rubbers (apart from mystique) I've found to be superior to any of the vibram rubbers. Saying that, enough people smash out hard problems in them so you can't argue with results.
I think like Doylo is saying, there must be a reason why most downturned shoes have shit heels. I found the Sparpa VS to be a bit wide for me but I get the impression that the shoe would suit a high volume, wide foot better than my weird shape feet.
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i hate this thread.
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I didn't say they were good overall, just that they are good on painful spikes.
I'd agree with that. The heel stiffness takes away sensitivity which can be either good or bad depending on the person.
Personally I don't like the vibram rubbers, all the 5.10 rubbers (apart from mystique) I've found to be superior to any of the vibram rubbers. Saying that, enough people smash out hard problems in them so you can't argue with results.
Totally agree on the rubber, I just with i could get a pair of 5-10's to feet my feet. instead I just get the la sportiva's resoled in 5-10 rubber :)
I found the Sparpa VS to be a bit wide for me but I get the impression that the shoe would suit a high volume, wide foot better than my weird shape feet.
Which is exactly my foot and why I'm mad at La Sportiva for narrowing the solution, and am hopeful for the Instinct VS's.
i hate this thread.
Why?
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i hate this thread.
Are you more of a toehook man?
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:D I've found the instinct rubber to be largely superior to 5:10 so far this year... Maybe not on frosty grit - but they're equal if not better on everything else I've used them on. I've been an avid 5:10 fanboi up to now...
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No quality issues or wear problems with either instinct Velcro or slipper.. Velcro's are too stiff for decent smearage (they don't soften as much as Anasazi vcs for example) but have been ace on edges and points...
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how about the new Scarpa Booster S? Supposed to be quite soft so good for overhangs and looks like a secure heel. I've got Stix V2s and they're the best shoes I've had in a while.
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I did probe about the booster S a while back but I can't seem to find any reviews of them and there's nobody raving about them on blogs. I think the general consensus is that they didn't do a good job on remaking the stix so perhaps they did an equally bad job on the boosters. The boostics were certainly a (well made) pile of shite.
As I say, I'm hoping to get up to bananafingers this week before departing to Sheffield and I plan to try on all the new stuff that arrived whilst I was away travelling. I was pretty excited about the Nexxo but they seem to have bad quality reviews on bf and the booster s is also on my radar. I'll probaby just get some pythons or something though, don't love them (a bit narrow for me) but the heel is quite good.
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I never had the original Stix but I really rate the new V2s. Perhaps the fact its just got XS Gip rather than XS (crap)edge but I love they way they feel under the feet. Rather psyched to check out the Booster S, also Haston rates them if you check out his recent blog post:
http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html (http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html)
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They look absolutely awful.
Stevie Hastons blog layout is good though, I like the long sight friendly font. Look forward to revisiting it when my retinas go south.
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The boostics were certainly a (well made) pile of shite.
What makes you say this? A read a few online reviews saying they were they best thing ...like EVA!
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http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html (http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html)
Rave reviews of Scarpa shoes by Scarpa sponsored climbers. Bit like being prescribed a course of leeches by Dr Hoffman of Stuttgart, owner of the largest leech farm in Europe :)
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What makes you say this? A read a few online reviews saying they were they best thing ...like EVA!
The boostics had much promise in the design stage then they went and shoved wooden boards on as soles, you just cannot have a performance shoe that is really stiff in my opinion. Even the whites soften up and the power comes from their clever midsole. The best shoes use clever tensioning and special midsoles to generate power to the toe and the cop-out ones just make the soles stiff. This is fine on vertical ground but when it comes to smearing and pulling with you toes on steep ground the toes just pop in my experience.
I can't remember the exact links but I remember reading a bunch of reviews saying they weren't very good. Dave Macleod may well say they're good but he has a habit of fulfilling his role as a sponsored scarpa athlete and saying all of their range are good yet 95% of the time he's wearing his stix.
If you were going to go that route then you'd be better off looking at the Scarpa instinct VS rather than the boostic imo. I think the booster S look pretty good, perhaps a lot of space between those two straps could leave the shoe loose around the arch area but couldn't comment until I tried them on.
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the boostics are anything but stiff and have the best heel I've ever experienced, unfortunately combined with the worst smell ever and not available in my size in britain :chair:
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the boostics are anything but stiff
You must be mistaken?! I tried to bend the sole in the climbing shop and nearly did a finger pulley in! Do you mean the booster?
To be fair they were very expensive when first released and they've come down a bit in price now. I wouldn't imagine they're a million miles away from the muira vs (men's) and with the addition of toe rubber, are probably worth a punt if you're a muira vs wearer. I personally wouldn't bother but I know what I like now and stick to them.
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So you haven't actually tried them?
Yeah I must be mistaken or we handled different shoes unless you fondled the pair I purchased. My instinct vs are way stiffer than the boostics I wore until they melted my nostrils and had to be incinerated.
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I tried them on in the shop, stood on some holds but didn't take me long to realise that they weren't for me. Admittedly it was during the winter, so the rubber would have been stiff in the cold but I was trying on a bunch of other shoes to so it would have all been relative.
Yeh, the instinct vs are quite stiff and I didn't get much power out of the toe of them which is why I didn't bother with them either. I have mentioned though, I do like a soft shoe, I prefer to feel what's under my toes, whereas some people don't mind them stiff. So to speak.
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Could we perhaps keep shoe cussing or recommendations to shoes we have actually used, rather than just tried on in the shop and decided were shit?!
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Could we perhaps keep shoe cussing or recommendations to shoes we have actually used, rather than just tried on in the shop and decided were shit?!
It's a step above recommending shoes that I haven't tried on at least! To be fair, I've owned 25 models in the 5 years I've been climbing so I like to think that I can tell what a shoes faults are quite quickly. Could Lewis Hamilton tell a car was shit from a quick test drive? Probably (disclaimer, I'm not claiming to be the Lewis Hamilton of climbing shoes).
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You can tell how a midsole is going to wear in just by trying the shoes on in a shop? How did your whites feel when you first tried them?!
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This might sound insane but I thought the (red chili) matador heel was really good, plus they have rubber across the toe and I would imagine they would be fairly cheap too.
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I had some Boostics, didn't rate them I'm afraid. Had them for about six months and gave them a decent go but never felt secure, well, on pretty much anything! I picked up a second hand pair of VS's recently and they are awesome, very impressed. I got them to use so I could keep my La Sportiva Futaras in good nick, but their roles may be reversed soon. I'd recommend both of these, very good heels for me at least and comfy whilst offering performance as well. I have odd feet mind, very low volume and skinny with weird long toes. This fact may or may not have a bearing on the shoes I prefer!
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I will soon be on my third pair of boostics (in as many years, and I climb fairly regularly).
If you have the correct foot shape and size correctly, the heel will be great for about 2-3 months of almost constant use.
Then it will get a little baggier.
The trend will continue until roughly 10.5 months and the heel will be rubbish for hooking.
The tighter you go the shorter the ratios of time the heel will last, but not to below 6 months.
They are a stiff shoes. They are made of XS edge and are designed to rely on stiffness for European sport routes.
Mine are still stiff after roughly 11 months of use. If you think they are soft, you must be either made of steel or sorely mistaken.
Anyway.
Boostics are a good limestone shoe. They have the stiffness, a good shape and they can take some pretty horrid abuse.
I only really climb on Limestone, and I have had no problems. Many reps of weedkiller have been made using them.
They are slightly downturn, but it isn't particularly drastic when compared to the dragon or similar.
Between these and blancos, I haven't found another shoe that I prefer for limestone yet.
Dragons fit me like a dream, but I didn't like how soft they were.
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When it comes to heel sag where it molds on to the hold I like Testarossas. They don't have much toe rubber though.
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When it comes to heel sag where it molds on to the hold I like Testarossas. They don't have much toe rubber though.
And the Testarossa has a really good toebox, similar but better than the solution - but the heel had quite a lot of deadspace for me, so I got rid of them (I think I'm allowed to comment as I've owned both of these models...).
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Rodma is on crack, boostics are stiff. Certainly stiffer than instinct laces, which in my opinion are the better shoe. Not tried booster s in anger yet but significantly softer than boostic.
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Rodma is on crack, boostics are stiff. Certainly stiffer than instinct laces, which in my opinion are the better shoe. Not tried booster s in anger yet but significantly softer than boostic.
Hey I'm not on crack, just caffeine and a lack of sleep
I bought my pair in Paris. Perhaps the French ones are a little more, erm, french :)
or, which is more likely when you get below a certain size the midsole may behave differently since there is less shoe between the heel and toe section. I only take a 37 in a velcro/laceup after all
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Have you got hooves for feet?
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Don't things get harder to bend when they get shorter (generally)? It was when you said that the instinct was stiffer that I got really suspicious. You're sure it was the boostic and not the booster? Not that the booster is super soft but it has got a split sole and whilst it's not "anything but stiff" it is softer than the boostic in the toebox.
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Having watched this thread over the last few days (as theres f*ck all else going on on UKB) all I can think is - Good grief - this thread is getting a bit UKC...
I'm with Stubbsy on this one - theres only so much you can garner from trying a shoe on in a shop. I recon pretty much ALL of the shoes I have bought have changed character once they've been used for a few weeks and ESPECIALLY when they've been stretched - as all rock boots do to some degree.. Anasazi velcro's - feel like the stiffest edging shoe of destiny out of the box, 3 months later and they're the ultimate grit shoe - and as they're just about to gasp their final breath they become the best ever ever smearing shoe - for about a week :)
Different shoes fit different people in different ways... I've seen folk with dragons on with a baggy heel - but mine fit with a super snug style...
Chain - if you've tried using 25 different types of rock shoes over 5 years you've clearly not found your match.. I've had c.10 pairs in that period - but only 5 types (until last year only 3.. when I developed a late in life scarpa habit).
Maybe its time for you to stop casting around the dancefloor for a better model and just take the one your dancing with back home?
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Don't things get harder to bend when they get shorter (generally)? It was when you said that the instinct was stiffer that I got really suspicious. You're sure it was the boostic and not the booster? Not that the booster is super soft but it has got a split sole and whilst it's not "anything but stiff" it is softer than the boostic in the toebox.
what is wrong with you?
I know what shoes i bought, wore and were my favourites, Ive been through dominator lace ups x 4, dominator velcro x 1 (worst of the bunch), vortex x 4 (both lilac and limited edition red and white), vision velcro x 1 (my previous favourites, best international result and first fontainbleau font 8a in these), rockettes x 2 (feet too small for booster), stix x 3, instinct slippers x 1, boostics x1 and finally instinct vs x 2, since as previously mentioned, can't get boostics in my size on this island and haven't dabbled with mail order rock shoes from the continent.
the boostic has more flex in the toebox, whilst on my feet, whilst trying problems when compared with instinct vs on my feet on the same problems. the boostics climbed well straight out the box, where the instinct vs have a weird window of performance opportunity, but are a tolerable replacement. the instinct vs give way less feedback when onmarginal footholds they either stick or rip with no warning, where i can feel what is going on with the boostics.
everyone has differently shaped/sized feet and has a different style in climbing so hardly surprising that we have different experiences whilst comparing the same shoes.
Have you got hooves for feet?
i do in solutions, clop clop clop ;D
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Romda, but nobody apart from you have claimed that the boostics are soft. You seemed unsure initially which is the only reason I suggested that you may have got the model wrong, it's only now that you've decided you're certain that they were boostics. You think they're soft, fine. That's your opinion, I can only assume you climbed in clogs prior to owning them, no more will I comment on the ghastly things.
Tom, I must admit that most of my experimentation was in the first 3 years. In recent years shoes have been 1 pair of Muira VS women's (didn't love for various reasons) 3 pairs of dragons (one were odd for the size so are lurking somewhere in the loft) , 1 pair of teams (toehook shoes) and 1 pair of blackwings (wall shoes). So generally, I'm a 5.10 man. Had little spells with Scarpa instinct slippers and instinct laces and whilst the instinct laces were good, they weren't quite as good as dragons so stuck with them.
I agree that the thread is detracting from the original question and I doubt there's any other suitable shoes that haven't been suggested. Shoe manufacturers need to get on it and sort out a performance shoe with a decent heel!
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Romda, but nobody apart from you have claimed that the boostics are soft. You seemed unsure initially which is the only reason I suggested that you may have got the model wrong, it's only now that you've decided you're certain that they were boostics. You think they're soft, fine. That's your opinion, I can only assume you climbed in clogs prior to owning them, no more will I comment on the ghastly things.
so you can determine my level of certainty without me ever expressing any doubt about the shoes i owned, as well as determine the level of stiffness of shoes without climbing in them. Bravo sir, bravo
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So you haven't actually tried them?
Yeah I must be mistaken or we handled different shoes unless you fondled the pair I purchased.
I tried them on in the shop, stood on some holds but didn't take me long to realise that they weren't for me.
I'm done here, you'll have to find something else to entertain you as I'm attempting to change my dual mass flywheel in my mondeo today...
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I'm glad I've started a big thread but id decided to stick with the White on page one :P
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So you haven't actually tried them?
Yeah I must be mistaken or we handled different shoes unless you fondled the pair I purchased.
I tried them on in the shop, stood on some holds but didn't take me long to realise that they weren't for me.
I'm done here, you'll have to find something else to entertain you as I'm attempting to change my dual mass flywheel in my mondeo today...
Yeah I'm still not getting where I ever doubted what I purchased I only doubted that we felt the same pair of shoes.
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I tried on a pair of 5.10 hiangles the other day, It was only a cursory feel but the heel seemed great. I believe they've enlisted Heinz Mariacher to help with the design and the heel definatley feels more like a set of scarpas. The toe seemed a bit blunt but the pair I had on felt fairly stiff so here's hoping.
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Any opinion on how they felt compared to dragons, teams or V10s?
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I would interested to try these. On the fiveten website it says they are decking them out in c4 rubber, so you would think they would have a bit of stiffness to them. It also says they are a budget shoe??? Probably just means they will only be 100 sheets
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sort of like the stiffness of the original dragons with the feel of teams around the mid foot and the fit of a pair of scarpas or sportivas in the heel. Quite a lot of tension in the heel so it feels quite secure out of the box. The toe is quite blunt though, more so than dragons or teams and yes they were c4.
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5.10's approach to new shoe development
(http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2013/11/barbar_blunderbuss_F1.jpg)
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sort of like the stiffness of the original dragons with the feel of teams around the mid foot and the fit of a pair of scarpas or sportivas in the heel. Quite a lot of tension in the heel so it feels quite secure out of the box.
That heel looks the same as the one they used on the original second generation dragons (the first iteration of the lace-up versions).
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Any idea on RRP or release date? I like the look of them and they cant be too bad if Sachi Amma did Realisation in them!
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5.10's approach to new shoe development
(http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2013/11/barbar_blunderbuss_F1.jpg)
I found a picture of their design team working hard...
(http://culturalcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/cat-on-typewriter.jpg)
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Anyone recommending some for wide feet with big big toes and narrow heels? Grit bouldering's the name of the game, so stickier rubber is the one.
ps. My star sign is scorpio.
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Anyone recommending some for wide feet with big big toes and narrow heels? Grit bouldering's the name of the game, so stickier rubber is the one.
ps. My star sign is scorpio.
Dunno about the big big toes and narrow heels, but I like the instinct vs now for my ping pong paddle feet. They're alsmot identical shape in the forefoot to the original solutions, but with a much better heel. Only climbed in them a few days, but so far I love 'em. we'll see how they break in.
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Tried on the Booster S and had a climb in them at TCA as they had the scarpa boot demo and I have to say that I'm impressed. By far the best Scarpa shoe I've tried yet. Well made as usual but everything worked. Good heel, lightweight, etc, etc. Toe was popping off of stuff a bit but think it was standard new shoe syndrome (they were brand new).
Pricey but if they came down I'd consider them.