UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: Johnny Brown on May 17, 2011, 05:23:33 pm
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Folks, if we're not careful we could be heading towards some problems with access down t'dale. I know its easy to take access to Chee Dale for granted but please be aware it is not as secure as it might appear. There are a few issues going on - taken one at a time they aren't so bad, but coming all together as they are at present and we have problems...
Much of Chee Dale is owned and managed by the Derbyshire Wildlife Trust (the main exceptions being Rubicon and The Chee Dale Cornice. Their priority is conservation, and to that end general public access is restricted to footpaths. Climbing access is a big exception to this, and although the BMC have maintained good relations with them over the years it can be an uneasy truce.
Firstly, and I can barely believe this, poaching. Climbers have been suspected of poaching for a while, and have recently been caught doing so. Be under no illusions - this is a criminal offence and the next person caught will be arrested. Trout are thriving in the Wye due to centuries of very careful, expensive management, and fishing there is regarded as some of the country's finest. I really can't reiterate how fucking stupid it is jeopardising decades of BMC access work for the price of a couple of fish. If anyone sees any climbers with tackle or fish, please make this clear to them.
Second, bolting. The DWT are very much against fixed gear and quite alert to its appearance. Every time bolts appear outside agreed areas it reinforces their impression is that climbers say one thing, do another, are not to be trusted, and need controlling. If you don't know exactly which areas that involves don't touch a drill. We tried to arrange a meeting last year to inform everyone of these details, can I suggest we try again?
Thirdly parking. This isn't a new problem, but with the last ten months providing the best Cornice conditions for years, the residents of Wormhill are currently very unhappy and have made a formal complaint to the landowner - DWT. The tunnels from Millers Dale are now open and should provide drier access to Chee Tor and Cornice that takes about a minute longer than walking in from Chee Tor cottage, and is quicker than parking in Wormhill village. Millers Dale is pay-and-display but I don't think it is enforced.
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The DWT are very much against fixed gear and quite alert to its appearance.
Leaving quickdraws in place on routes down the Cornice i think is totally pointless and irresponsible. There were 2 routes clipped up today with bright coloured shiny draws. All the routes on the right hand side are incredibly easy to strip :shrug:
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Quickdraws on the Cornice are not an issue currently as far as I know - for starters the Cornice is one of the few crags not owned by the DWT.
The DWT are very much against fixed gear and quite alert to its appearance
By 'alert to its appearance', I don't mean how fixed gear looks, I mean they spot new bolts quickly. Retrobolting on their crags gets spotted quickly and is not liked - more on the basis of physical damage than visual intrusion.
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Are you saying everything bar the Cornice is on their land? I notice you mention Rubicon. Does the same apply to WCJ? Thanks.
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I'm pretty sure Rubicon itself is owned by the fishing syndicate. Prett much everything else bar Chee Dale Cornice is on DWT land.
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Leaving quickdraws in place on routes down the Cornice i think is totally pointless and irresponsible.
Or at any other crag.
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The Nook is also not on DWT land (I asked when trying to get permission to remove some Sycamores from the base).
I had a meeting regarding rebolting with the DWT two years ago and they are reasonable people, but as I said regards White Gold, they pay attention to the crags and they do notice when new bolts go in, especially when this happens outside of agreed areas.
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me and stef saw some students at rubicon a few weeks ago and one had a fly rod and was casting while resting.sorry it never occured to us to say anything but will if we see them again
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Break the thing round their head if you catch them again.
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, but as I said regards White Gold, they pay attention to the crags and they do notice when new bolts go in, especially when this happens outside of agreed areas.
I have to admit I wasnt aware of no-go bolting areas in Chee Dale and wouldnt have thought twice about bolting some of the areas cited. The BMC RAD info below:
http://thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=459 (http://thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=459)
Cheedale is a SSSI and cSAC with a high level of legal protection under European law. Access for climbing is concessionary and can only be maintained if climber's continue to adhere to a number of conditions agreed with Derbyshire Wildlife Trust (who own the Southern bank of the river).
These include,
· No access along the top of the dale beyond a corner formed by the wall and obvious new fence bounding the 3rd major gully east of Plum Buttress. Therefore, no access to Runyans Corner and Moving, Long, or Two-Tier Buttresses from the dale top.
· No further bolted development on the small, vegetated, and obscure crags, which rim the dale - most of these are of negligible climbing quality.
· Do not leave in situ crabs or tape on bolt hangars.
· Parts of Nettle Buttress, Chee Tor East, and Dogs Dinner area are bolt free areas of outstanding appearance.
· Do not remove large swathes of ivy.
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Folks, if we're not careful we could be heading towards some problems with access down t'dale.
JB, thanks for the alert on this stuff(PM'd u).....it would be a real shame to lose Cheedale, particularly as It'll soon be 20 mins drive from me :bounce:. I haven't seen any mention of this on other channel & I'm sure the :fishing: are more likely lurking there than here. Surely a post or news on item on UKC is going to get to more folk than a post here? ........no offense Sharkster
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Worth remembering that some Cheedale regular climbers are also members of DWT and at least one of them thinks the wildlife a lot more important than the climbing. So it is really easy to spot new bolts/cleaning.
Thanks to the opening of the tunnels Wormhill can go back to the worms.
Also re parking, if you park 'illegally' on the roads, i.e. at Rubicon on the clearway bit you might get ticketed.
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We've intentionally not posted this on UKC though there is info on the BMC site. Would prefer to keep it a little lower profile and avoid some of the idiotic comments which are par for the course on there. DWT etc monitor forums and it doesn't always give them a great impression of climbers.
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I tried the new approach this afternoon and it's fantastic.
Last week I walked into the Cornice from the Chee Tor Cottage approach and as it currently stands it's muddy, slippy and best suited to wellies or walking boots.
The new approach is much better, doesn't feel any longer and has the added bonus of no slog back up hill at the end of day.
Yes, the car park is pay and display, but if you get a car full of mates it'll cost you less than a quid each and you'll be saving the environment.
With this new approach there shouldn't be any excuse for parking at Wormhill any more.
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i wish I had this access back in the day when I basically lived down the dale for 2 years.... (15 + yrs ago) hitchin there 3 days a week
respect for this thread...
easy for me to say... but I implore all to go with the new access... the landowners can, and will, ban if they think it best on balance
to lose the dale....
christ. not worth considering.
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may I suggest for future re-equipping (on allowable crags) you consider going with Bolt Products' 6mm twisted-leg resin bolts... ...from pigeon's cave last year.
Climbed down Pigeon's t other day and they are pretty unobtrusive so it could be a good way to go. My only issue was I thought they were going to snap they are so skinny!
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p.s. living in a place where tourists parking can be a bit of an issue (at weekends the streets around our house get pretty busy with people looking for free all day parking) I have seen first hand how annoyed normal, relatively calm, people get when access to there property/drive is made difficult on a regular basis (very rarely blocked but often made a little harder work...) so it sounds like a really good idea to start using the worm hill way, we could also use our bikes this way and do the approach in seconds!
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BMC update
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275 (http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275)
Chee Dale Access Issues
Several access issues have cropped up at the same time concerning this special place. It’s special for both sport and trad climbing and as a nature reserve that is of high ecological importance for plants, birds, fish, geology and landscape. It holds the highest level of environmental protection.
This news article explains new ways of approaching the Dale, reminds everyone of the access and bolting agreements the BMC has negotiated with Derbyshire Wildlife Trust who own most of it, records their thanks for help with recent work and calls for volunteers to help remove an invasive non-native plant called Himalayan Balsam.
Access and approaches
The railway tunnels are now open for public access on foot or on bicycle, and the large car park at Millers Dale Station is again fully open.
The easiest and preferred way to get to Dogs Dinner, Chee Tor and the Cornice is via the old railway track from Millers Dale Station, or from the large lay by on the A6 at Topley Pike via Old Dale. A well made path leads down to the riverside path from the south side of the railway track just after the long tunnel which starts west of Bridge 75. Please do not use the more direct but unmade eroding descent down the railway embankment to Dogs Dinner on the north side.
This avoids having to park in Wormhill at all. A strong letter of complaint has been received citing almost every form of nuisance behaviour possible, but in particular inconsiderate parking. It’s not the first time there have been such complaints, and not surprisingly the problem is worst when there are long dry spells of weather. Please leave the villagers in peace, and if you do think of going there avoid blocking entrances, damaging soft verges, creating congestion and so on, and remember there are now better alternatives.
All crags in the Dale should be approached from the riverside public right of way and not along the opposite river bank. The alluvial soils are fragile, as are the plants that grow in them, and the Wildlife Trust does not want them disturbed. So approach Two Tier and the Long Wall by crossing the river at the weir opposite Two Tier and Chee Tor by crossing the river at the island opposite Nostradamus.
For Plum Buttress use the stile and path directly below the buttress and avoid using the track across the scree altogether.
A very important point to note is that there is no public access within the Dale away from the public right of way, and as climbers we have unique negotiated concessions.
When crossing the river be careful not to disturb the river bed or anything in the river. This contains a very special fish population, and is regularly patrolled by the water bailiff.
Bolting and other climbing guidelines
Bolted routes were in the main established before the Wildlife Trust acquired the site. They would very much prefer there to be no bolts or lower offs at all, but have conceded that where sport routes are established they may remain, though any replacement of fixed gear can only be on a like for like basis and should not be glaringly obvious. Routes should always be left clean of quick draws or tat.
There is an absolute embargo on bolting new routes and on retro bolting. It is really important that everyone observes this. If you came across anyone infringing this agreement please point out it could easily cost all concessionary access for everyone. The Wildlife Trust is absolutely clear this is no idle threat.
Trad climbing is not a problem providing all vegetation is left undisturbed, whether ascending a route or during abseil descent. Leaving vegetation undisturbed applies just as much to venues like Rhubarb and Cosmopolitan where these are re-vegetating.
On some minor or largely unclimbed crags like Waterline and Chee Tor East the Wildlife Trust do not want any climbing access at all – and would prefer the same applied to Nettle Buttress too. The BMC’s priority in negotiation has been to retain access to the major and most popular venues.
Wildlife Trust thanks climbers
And so to the thanks from the Wildlife Trust for the help climbers gave in helping with the new board walk near the Cornice, and to the BMC’s Access and Conservation Trust (ACT) for helping to fund it.
Volunteers needed
Last but not least – the Himalayan Balsam. As a garden escapee without the natural controls it attracts in its native habitat it becomes dominant in preferred locations shading out native vegetation, allowing erosion to set in during winter months and reducing biodiversity. A campaign to remove it from the Wye is underway, and if you can give a hand with this, your help would be much appreciated and help to strengthen climbers’ reputation with the conservation bodies in the Dale as a responsible and trustworthy user group. Please contact Steve Moores on osprey@greenbee.net direct to register you interest or find out more.
By Henry Folkard (BMC Peak Access Co-ordinator)
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Can I just say, you can write press releases all day long, but far more useful would be a decent map.
I haven't got a clue where half of these place names are. Did a google to find a map showing these new tunnels and what they link up but couldn't find anything usable.
Sorry, but where is Bridge 75 precisely?
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what a very good point!
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We've intentionally not posted this on UKC though there is info on the BMC site. Would prefer to keep it a little lower profile and avoid some of the idiotic comments which are par for the course on there. DWT etc monitor forums and it doesn't always give them a great impression of climbers.
can't it be added but without an attached forum thread? the point of all this is to publicise, right? Seems crazy to not use UKC's news function.
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Can I just say, you can write press releases all day long, but far more useful would be a decent map.
I haven't got a clue where half of these place names are. Did a google to find a map showing these new tunnels and what they link up but couldn't find anything usable.
Sorry, but where is Bridge 75 precisely?
My apologies, Henry only got on email two years ago, I doubt maps are likely yet.
Luckily its very simple - all the tunnels between Buxton and Bakewell are now open to peds and cyclists. Now, given a bike, 'the valley is gone - and the Gods with it, and every fool in Buxton can be in Bakewell in half an hour and every fool at Bakewell in Buxton'.
As it was:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d3/Monsal_trail_map.svg/300px-Monsal_trail_map.svg.png)
Bridge 75 is the one just upstream from the Cornice and Chee Tor, or downstream from the Nook. IE not the bridge at Millers Dale that they abseil off, or the ones between Plum Buttress and the Embankment.
As it is:
(http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/monsal-trail-map-2011.jpg)
What is suggested is that if approaching from Millers Dale, you don't hop over the wall on emerging from the tunnel behind Chee Tor. Instead take the path in the 'wrong' upstream direction, which after about 20 yds cuts back in the right direction to the footbridge above the stepping stones. For Chee Tor there is then the narrow path along the right bank, or the DWT would prefer you then go downstream and wade.
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For info peeps apparently last thurs one o the tunnels was shut cos of falling masonry, and i don't mean DTR. Dunno if its been sorted/opened since.
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I parked at Miller's Dale car park and cycled to Bridge 75, then walked down to the Cornice. All told took about 10 minutes, bear in mind I'm on crutches so you can probably halve that for most people. Bridge 75 is the enormous brick arch bridge that looms over the valley as you look upstream from the Cornice / Cheet Tor / Dog's Dinner. Even if you walked it it would prob only be 20 mins and its all dead flat and paved, quite why anyone would want to mud surf down from Wormhill then face the uphill slog back out anymore is beyond me, other than fear of parking charges (not an issue for an evening hit, or if you ignore it!). As an aside some of the parking in Wormhill last year was a disgrace, I'm on the villager's side on this one.
it strikes me that if our most active bolters are unaware of the agreed limits to activity then as JB says maybe we should make a concerted effort to have a meeting of minds between bolters and access reps to make sure everyone is on the same page. To be honest I personally disagree that bolts are visually intrusive, but the fact remains that we have negotiated ourselves a nice deal in Cheedaleand we have to live by it whether we agree or not. If we are stepping outside of the agreed bounds then we need to self police and be seen to do so.
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Wouls a links be useful:
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/monsaltrail (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/monsaltrail)
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I'm not a local but as someone who has only recently discovered the delights of Chee Dale I would be wholeheartedly behind any initiatives to preserve access to this area.
To be honest I personally disagree that bolts are visually intrusive, but the fact remains that we have negotiated ourselves a nice deal in Cheedaleand we have to live by it whether we agree or not. If we are stepping outside of the agreed bounds then we need to self police and be seen to do so.
:agree:
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tunnels all open yesteryither. Done a map while eating a sandwich:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/beardownproductions/John/general%20shit/CheeDaleMap.jpg?t=1306152122)
blue dotted line is path from wormhill (obviously), red dotted one shows the old railway and the BIG TUNNEL. Really easy/pleasant walk pretty much straight to the crag. path down to cornice etc is signed on the left (approaching from Miller's Dale) after tunnel - easy to spot.
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tunnels all open yesteryither. Could see bolts on Dong's Dinner quite clearly from the bridge. Done a map while eating a sandwich:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/beardownproductions/John/general%20shit/CheeDaleMap.jpg?t=1306152122)
blue dotted line is path from wormhill (obviously), red dotted one shows the old railway and the BIG TUNNEL. Really easy/pleasant walk pretty much straight to the crag. path down to cornice etc is signed on the left (approaching from Miller's Dale) after tunnel - easy to spot.
And I thank you :great:
Seems well obvious now. Maybe a few handy maps tucked under windscreen wipers and the Wormhill problem would be solved?
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To be honest I personally disagree that bolts are visually intrusive, but the fact remains that we have negotiated ourselves a nice deal in Chee dale and we have to live by it whether we agree or not. If we are stepping outside of the agreed bounds then we need to self police and be seen to do so.
This is the nub of the issue. I think historically bolters have tended to operate in a bit of a vigilante manner due to ethical concerns within the climbing community - don't ask, don't tell, just stick them in and see if they get accepted. Part of the problem is the woefully out-of-date guidebooks. Or perhaps an impression persists that the BMC are anti-bolt or that individuals like myself are pushing a personal ant-bolt agenda behind vague 'access concerns'. But that really isn't the case. Its 2011, I think the ethical debates are largely over and folk need to understand that relationships with conservation bodies have moved on enormously. There is a lot more at stake here than some tit-for-tat retrobolt-chopping beard-twitching scene. Unfortunately there is more detail than can easily be explained online, and more subtleties than can be aired on a public forum. I'm not around much in the next few weeks (and my area is supposed to be eastern edges...) so those involved may need to lead on this. PM me if you want more info.
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We've intentionally not posted this on UKC though there is info on the BMC site. Would prefer to keep it a little lower profile and avoid some of the idiotic comments which are par for the course on there. DWT etc monitor forums and it doesn't always give them a great impression of climbers.
can't it be added but without an attached forum thread? the point of all this is to publicise, right? Seems crazy to not use UKC's news function.
:goodidea:
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Its 2011
Exactly, we don't need bolts anymore, just flick the switch on the jet pack if we fall off
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Used the new approach to the Cornice/Chee Tor this eve. Its :great:.
There were 6 cars at Wormhill at 5.30. More arrived I'm sure as the Cornice was busy.
We just warmed up there then went on The Ogre...... Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?
How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.
Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......
Or get it on the other Channel :-\
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Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?
How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.
Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......
Or get it on the other Channel :-\
Or talk to the other people at the crag you don't know?
Not everyone...
a) has the internet (I know its amazing isn't it!)
b) uses this particular forum (why the hell not?)
c) uses the "other Channel" (I guess thats not too unreasonable).
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Used the new approach to the Cornice/Chee Tor this eve. Its :great:.
There were 6 cars at Wormhill at 5.30. More arrived I'm sure as the Cornice was busy.
We just warmed up there then went on The Ogre...... Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?
How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.
Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......
Or get it on the other Channel :-\
I believe this may be down to the other channel saying that the tunnels would not be open until the 25th May. When in fact they have been open now for around a week or so.
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Done a map while eating a sandwich:
you should do this shit for a living
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If there isn't signage in place saying that parking isn't allowed then that seems like a fundamental error. A simple sign on the point of access briefly explaining why access by that route is not allowed, the consequences of people going against this and then alternative instructions seems like a no brainer. Not everyone is going to check the RAD/UKB/UKC before they go and if they don't have the information then they can hardly be blamed for breaking the rules.
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I can also see the pay and display aspect of the 'new' parking putting people off regardless.
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How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.
That didn't do anything about the parking at Kilnsey. People don't seem to open their eyes.
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Maybe just post the official lime caller there, training his pinch grip cracking the skulls of those who disobey.
"The lime has called, but you're not invited"
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Parking at Wormhill is still permitted, but we'd like to see the end of the kind of inconsiderate parking that upsets locals. Unfortunately the inconsiderate aren't likely to change their behaviour, but if the considerate move to Miller's Dale then at least the inconsiderate should get a proper spot. Its far from ideal, but lets face it, being a twat often gets you on in life.
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How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.
That didn't do anything about the parking at Kilnsey. People don't seem to open their eyes.
It may have made a difference to some who will have parked elsewhere, but to others it won't. You'll have more easily noticed/remembered people who are doing something wrong as its annoying and the evidence is more readily available.
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Due to certain sensitivities about bolting :worms: which have been drawn to my attention I have edited a couple of posts and removed two others.
There are a number of things that I would like clarified but the appropriate forum is the next Peak meet.
PM me if you are unhappy about editing the posts or Johnny Brown for the state of play.
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This year is my first at Chee Tor, so far I have been parking at the Topley Pike layby, which has seemed fine to me, although I am keen on the idea of avoiding the hill so out of interest how enforced is the Millers Dale pay and display? If it is enforced in the same way as the Curbar/Millstone/Stanage car parks I might be tempted to try it. If not I will continue to use Topley Pike, which also gives me an excuse to go to the Monyash Cafe on the way there/back.
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Never understood the reluctance to pay for parking, you spend more on petrol getting there so a few quid which in the most part go to help up-keep the parking facilities, and areas we're visiting is nothing really, certainly less than wall entry which many will drive to.
However, I do prefer the way Stanage Popular has a collection box rather than forcing pay and display (and always throw a quid or so in when I'm leaving).
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Despite my initial scepticism (sharley not) we used the approach from Millers Dale last night to the Cornice. From Cornice to car took 12 minutes, and that was with Rob's dodgy hip hindering us and stopping to examine various interesting construction details in the tunnel like the bizarre new red bricks fastened to the walls (wtf?). We both concluded that it was just as quick as parking at Wormhill taking into account the extra driving time plus the alpine (for sports climbers) hill out and will not be parking at Wormhill again. I'm also thinking that parking at Millers Dale gives quicker access to Two Tier when the additional driving (from Sheffield) and the Himalayan hill out is taken into account. If you were coming from Manchester then this might not be the case.
Regarding paying in the car park, the charge sign does not refer to a non-payment penalty but does refer to the bye-laws which are on a separate notice which do refer to a penalty for non-payment of £35 reduced to £20 if you pay quickly. Charges only apply before 6pm. My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that the charge sign has to state that there is a penalty for non-payment, which there would appear to be by reference to the bye-laws. So it would appear you could be charged a penalty for non-payment. Whether this is enforced remains to be seen. Solicitors please ? .....
You could always park free of charge in the limited layby on the main road and walk up the small hill onto the railway if you were really fussed about the parking charges.
Hope this helps convince a few more to park at Millers Dale.
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Never understood the reluctance to pay for parking...
Slackers, you must have more money than sense to not understand this! I think you're being overly sanctimonious here.
It is a PDNPA car park, same as Curbar and Millstone. Much as I would love to be able to give the nice folks at PDNPA all my cash so they can sell Stanage, it doesn't make much financial sense. As Norton rightly says charges are up to 6pm so after work hits should be fine. At other times all I will say is that I have parked at Curbar and Millstone hundreds of times without a ticket and never been penalised. Anecdotal I grant you, but perhaps indicative. As Norton also rightly says there is a layby at the Wormhill turn off which for those who don't mind walking / riding an extra 200 yards is a perfect free alternative.
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I'm not at all trying to take the higher moral ground, I was stating my reasons why I don't understand people's objections to paying to park.
Its not that I have more money than sense, but roads and car-parks don't appear out of thin air and maintain themselves. The former are paid for and maintained out of Road Tax (and the tax on fuel), the later from the fees charged for using them. I don't drive around without road tax, so I have no problem with paying to park, especially as there are usually a few people in whoevers car we've driven to the crag in, and splitting this cost makes it equivalent to less than fuck all per person (hence the above comparison to the cost of fuel to get to the crag, and what people pay when they use indoor walls). I'm not for a minute saying its no more expensive than not paying because that is patently stupid and of course you'd save money by not paying, but relatively the cost of parking isn't that high.
Yes its great that the fees aren't enforced > 18:00 in most of these places and I'll happily take advantage of this, and fortuitous that generally fine/tickets aren't issued for not paying and displaying, but I'll continue to pay as its basically fuck all, and cheaper than entry to the wall or a fine (should it ever be levied). I don't expect others to change their attitude/behavior in light of this at all.
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relatively the cost of parking isn't that high
From my house, about 40 miles away, petrol (return) ~£10, PDNPA parking £3.50, so 35% of the cost again, I think this is a pretty high relative cost, no matter how you are sharing it out, for those coming from Sheffield surely the ratio must be worse (depending on the car you are driving). Also, in the course of a climbing day in the Peak I often visit more than one venue depending on the weather and a multitude of other factors. For example one could easily, in a day, start at Stanage Plantation, walk in,find it too windy, then Secret Garden too greasy, then Curbar too busy and be £10.50 down without having climbed.
It also seems a little mad to pay where in almost every case you can either ignore it, or park nearby, legally and for free, much better, in my opinion would be a system where all of the PDNPA car parks, rather than 19 of the 48, suggested a voluntary contribution of =<£1. Even you seem to concur that this is an actual reasonable cost to pay to park I do prefer the way Stanage Popular has a collection box rather than forcing pay and display (and always throw a quid or so in when I'm leaving)
, maybe this would discourage people parking inconsiderately to avoid charges (something I always avoid doing I must stress) and allow sensible flexibility, without the threat (however real or not) of punishment for non payment.
Then again maybe I should just pay the £30 for a years pass to enable me to take the moral high ground ;) or £15 to have one sent to my friends house in Bakewell which will stand me on a slightly more dubious moral high ground
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the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.
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Another comparator is the cost of a pint on the way home which is ~£3, ok not everyone has a beer on the way home, but viewing the cost of parking in that light its really not much.
You should check @isitgreasy (http://twitter.com/#!/isitgreasy) for conditions reports, and over time its fairly easy to build a working knowledge of where is likely to be suitable for climbing if conditions are marginal, so you don't necessarily end up having to pay to park in three different places and waste petrol getting between them.
As you both say there are free alternatives and I too use those in preference (I'm not that stupid, despite outward appearances), but I don't begrudge having to pay for parking when I have to and am still struggling to understand why others do.
the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.
I think all the machines will show who operates them and where the revenue goes.
Anyway, :sorry: :off:
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the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.
I was always under the impression that the money did go back in to the national park and with this in mind I have always paid for parking over the years (and this is when I was a poor student) when it seemed it was PDNPA-run car park. Would be keen to know if this was actually the case or not? Anyone got the knowledge on this? BMC?
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Look what i've started. Can't really remember, and googling has drawn a blank. I think it came up a couple of years ago at a BMC thing.
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Anyway, we've finally exposed who Slacker's employers are.....
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Anyway, we've finally exposed who Slacker's employers are.....
Sssssh!
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It's only £30 for a season ticket (£15 if you live within the Peak Park), that's only about 9 visits to Chee Dale, plantation, curbar gap or Millstone crags to get your money's worth. Also, pretty sure the cash goes to the PDNP.
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I'm also thinking that parking at Millers Dale gives quicker access to Two Tier when the additional driving (from Sheffield) and the Himalayan hill out is taken into account. If you were coming from Manchester then this might not be the case.
Quicker if coming from glossop direction as you cut out the slo]w bit through buxton by cutting through smalldale and wormhill. We timed the walk in to max's wall at 26mins from millers dale, and because it avoids the hill and is quicker to drive to is now our approach of choice.
A year permit is a great idea (http://ukbouldering.com/board/Smileys/ukbCustom/punk.gif)
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the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.
Bill at North Lees will know.
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They own them, the money must go back into the park.
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index/visiting/parking.htm (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index/visiting/parking.htm)
Annual Application form:
http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/carpark.pdf (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/carpark.pdf)
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Just back from Rubicon, where I had a good chat with the owner ( he could have been gamekeeper but I asked him if this was his land and he said yes), a pleasant chap with a nice black lab.
There were 5-6 of us there and he chatted to all, and was asking about whether or not we'd seen anyone fishing. He explained the situation as JB said earlier - and he's obviously keen to stop it happening via self policing from climbers. from what he said the people fishing were climbers or people with climbers and it's happened three times. One time was a couple of folk fly fIshing who he thought may have been with a student group - and he told them to stop which they did. In his words, no problems or reports for years and three times this year..
I took his number and said I'd post it up here so if anyone sees anyone fishing to give him a ring. He seemed pretty pleased with this and said thanks etc.. I got the impression he didn't want to change the status quo but obviously didn't want anyone poaching. Of course a quiet word in someone's ear if anyone is fishing is probably the easiest thing to do...
His name is Steve and his number is 01298 871676
TT
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[quoate]
I took his number and said I'd post it up here so if anyone sees anyone fishing to give him a ring
His name is Steve and his number is 01298 871676
TT
[/quote]
if only there was a signal at rubicon or anywhere nearby :whistle:
great work tt, hope all the diplomacy didn't stop the crushing
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a pleasant chap with a nice black lab.
Was probably these guys' boss (http://www.afronline.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/science-lab.jpg).
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His name is Steve and his number is 01298 871676
That's Stephen Moores. He's the Head Keeper for cragx & Litton Flyfishers, who control the fishing. He's come to talk to me a couple of times when I've been watching/studying the fish.
I keep his number in my phone in the hope that one day I'll be able justify spending £45 on a day fishing that lovely looking river.
Who am I kidding? £45 for a day on the Wye is a bargain; I'm just waiting for it to be in perfect condition on a day that I can get off work. My main worry is that I could get addicted to fishing perfect, well managed small rivers.
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http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183 (http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183)
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Not the best timing coming toward the end of the season, wouldn't they be better waiting the year out and aiming to release it in time for next spring, thus minimising the chance of it being outdated by the time most folk get around to needing it?
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http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183 (http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183)
Judging by the author, that publication will be handsome, sophisticated, mature and agreeable. Oh and crap.
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http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183 (http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=183)
Judging by the author, that publication will be handsome, sophisticated, mature and agreeable. Oh and crap.
..... with tons of new sport routes, crags to go to, and updated routes. Can't see what's crap about that myself. :shrug:
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I thought someone might not get that one. :tumble:
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:)
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:lol:
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May I ask the approved approach to Chee Tor? I wandered in from Dogs Dinner the other night but talking to a few people it was suggested that this is frowned upon and river crossing is the way (as I did today)?
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Yeah, officially the DWT would prefer you to wade - or when the river is low you can boulder-hop dryshod across the rapid just downstream of the new boardwalk. I'm not convinced there is much rationale behind not using the path from Dog's Dinner though - its been used for years and is hardly a scar on the landscape.
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There are stepping stones directly below Clarion Call. I presume this is ok :-\
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To add to Johnny Brown's points it was useful getting Henry Folkard's (Access Rep) insights at the Peak Area meet.
Whilst the parking issues and crag access issues are ostensibly separate there is a good deal of interconnectedness that means that one can affect the other insofar how the climbing community is viewed by other bodies. For example a key person for Derbyshire Wildlife lives at Wormhill and would be personally well aware of the parking issue.
If Derbyshire Wildlife had owned Chee Dale prior to climbing taking place there is no doubt that they would not permit it now. For example, whilst climbers have unrestricted access to Two Tier buttress, Derbyshire Wildlife does not even permit its own members tio go across there !
There are some good indicators with changes of personnel at Derbyshire Wildlife and collaborations underway with the BMC that mean that the relationship with Derbyshire Wildlife will strengthen in the forthcoming months. In the meantime it would be helpful for Henry for all of us to keep as low a profile as possible and generally do the right thing with respect to parking, bolting, situ gear, accessing the crags via preferred paths, respecting fishing rights, noise, litter, not blocking footpaths with gear, gardening etc. Also if you have a quiet word with anyone who isn't that would be :2thumbsup:
With respect to parking at the station opposite the green shed instead of at Wormhill the fee is £3.50 but a permit can be obtained for parking in the Peak at £30 per year for those outside the park and £15 within. Info here (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index/visiting/parking.htm)
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With respect to parking at the station opposite the green shed instead of at Wormhill the fee is £3.50 but a permit can be obtained for parking in the Peak at £30 per year for those outside the park and £15 within. Info here (http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index/visiting/parking.htm)
I applied for a permit last Friday and it arrived today. It covers 18 pay and display car parks in the Peak District including Wormhill, Stanage Plantation, Millstone / Surprise view and Curbar Gap.
It also says that income generated from car park permits / charges are used exclusively for the maintenance of National Park Authority owned properties.
You also don't need to supply your registration plate when you apply for a permit either which might be of use to the car sharers out there...... :whistle:
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It also says that income generated from car park permits / charges are used exclusively for the maintenance of National Park Authority owned properties.
Excellent, thanks for feeding that back.
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The station parking is gratis after 6 anyway, so homies arriving on an evening session are laughing.
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and maybe they found my teams?
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They are at the climbing works. I meant to text you about this on Friday - sorry. Will do now.
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The office have had a complaint about bolting and tree removal at High Tor. Anyone know anyone who might have been involved?
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is this on the right wing or elsewhere?
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There were some shiny new bolts around the main face when I was there last... These may be the ones in question.
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on what/when? I've spent a fair amount of time there so far this year...
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It was on the eighth of June (training diaries are quite useful ;D ) around skylight, They might have been there ages, but they looked new to me.
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nah that route is even in the database on the other channel. Or at least in the comments. Come on JB, spill.
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That is all I know. Upset landowners don't tend to be familiar with route names.
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I dare say it will be all the new low grade stuff on the right wing. That whole buttress has had a major overhaul with 11 new sport routes added. Not sure who by, Gary Gibson maybe. It shouldn't be hard to find out.
Not heard of owt on the main crag in the last two years.
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thats my bet too but its taken them a while to realise given there are photos of the new stuff way back into winter. Details of the routes are on Gary's website. I mentioned the new bolts to a few of the first ascentionists of routes down that end and they didn't seem ofended by them (not the point in question obviously).
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The route near Highlight/ High Tor Gully and is called Sportlight and is almost certainly Gibson's.
He has done a load of bolting on the Right Wing which is detailed on his website (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/High%20Tor%20Right%20Wing%20Topo.htm).
There was a recent discussion on UKC which he contributed to (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=463151&v=1#x6436879a).
There is nothing to indicate there is an issue with bolting on the BMC Regional Area Database (RAD) (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=134) although there was an incident that the DDDC complained about 4 years ago (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2184) that seemed a load of fuss over nothing. The UKC discussion on the subject at the time is here (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=267205&v=1#x3948684)
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Anyone been to High Tor in the last week? Had another report of retrobolting - on the main face. Might well be in confusion with the above but it would be good to know.
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The DDDC ranger had 2 issues with bolting at High Tor. (He claimed to be a climber, by the way)
One, according to him it's a SSSI partly for its geological features, so bolting it might be a criminal offence.
Two, much more of an issue to him, was that the top viewpoints are popular with tourists. They need protecting from tripping over the top of the crag, so the DDDC promote hawthorn etc to form a natural barrier (a fence would work but be kinda ugly). Said bolter had chopped down a load of hawthorn so he could gain abseil access. Result=angry ranger.
So to say it was a lot of fuss about nowt wouldn't be very accurate. If its going to be an ongoing issue which potentially screws access, maybe bolting needs to be stopped? Something to discuss with the main players anyway....
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Anyone been to High Tor in the last week? Had another report of retrobolting - on the main face. Might well be in confusion with the above but it would be good to know.
I was on the main face on both Sunday and Wednesday evenings and didn't notice any new bolts.
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Ah good. Did you get anywhere right of Darius?
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The DDDC ranger had 2 issues with bolting at High Tor. (He claimed to be a climber, by the way)
One, according to him it's a SSSI partly for its geological features, so bolting it might be a criminal offence.
Two, much more of an issue to him, was that the top viewpoints are popular with tourists. They need protecting from tripping over the top of the crag, so the DDDC promote hawthorn etc to form a natural barrier (a fence would work but be kinda ugly). Said bolter had chopped down a load of hawthorn so he could gain abseil access. Result=angry ranger.
So to say it was a lot of fuss about nowt wouldn't be very accurate. If its going to be an ongoing issue which potentially screws access, maybe bolting needs to be stopped? Something to discuss with the main players anyway....
Are you talking about the previous or current incident ?
The first issue cited against bolting sounds tenuous and as you say was a more minor concern. The second (the cutting down of hawthorn) has nothing to do with bolting.
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Ah good. Did you get anywhere right of Darius?
Sunday was my first visit to the main face for 2 years and we spent a bit of time below original route staring up at the lines. Bolts on My New Hat, Bastille and The Passion Wagon but nothing new spotted. We went up the first pitch of Debauchery and then traversed delicatessen into Darius. I didn't really glance right while high on the face but neither of us noticed any new bolts. I might go up Perseus this week, if so I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Wednesday we went up Lyme Cryme.
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The second (the cutting down of hawthorn) has nothing to do with bolting.
Why not? You don't believe the hawthorn was cut down by the bolter?
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Dunno when it happened or if it's related to any of the complaints but the tree at the start of original route has disapeared.
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that thing was well and truly dead and has been missing since a lot earlier on in the year. Bet it confuses new visitors using Northern Lime.
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I was at Raven Tor this morning and was approached by a nice chap - Stephen Moores. He looks after the riverside for the anglers.
He was a bit miffed having just stepped in some human shit whilst clearing the paths by the river opposite the tor. He had clocked me as a regular and asked that I put the word for climbers not to shit over there. It seems that shitting over there isn't uncommon. I pointed out that as far as I was aware it probaly wasnt climbers as the "crag toilet" was in the trees to the left of Indecent though for some reason he declined my offer to show him this more specifically! I said I had never known climbers go over that side to have a dump and it would be obvious as they would be visible to anyone climbing. He accepted that it could be other sightseers/tourists and he had never caught anyone in flagrante. Nevertheless I said I would make it public on here. Clearly we would be miffed if anglers took to having a dump under Mecca.
On a related positive note he said that there had been no further instances of climbers caught poaching at Rubicon or Chee Dale.
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You can tell the Park District National Park Authority what you think of their newly opened tunnels on the Monsal Trail in a two question survey here https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/peaktrails (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/peaktrails)
If you think it would be a good idea to join the Monsal, High Peak and Tissington Trails to form a 60 mile mostly traffic-free route for people to enjoy the Peak District without needing a car... you wouldn't be the only one - http://www.peakcyclelinks.org.uk/ (http://www.peakcyclelinks.org.uk/)