UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: tomtom on January 26, 2016, 04:46:18 pm
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Lots of info about how to help/prevent/fix Golfers - but not much about what specific climbing action causes it?
I ask as I've slightly (managable) tweaky elbows at the moment - but can't pin down what 'type' of climbing action seems to aggravate it. E.G is it crimping, big compression moves, pinches... (those are just suggestions - I have not idea really)... When I had tennis elbow 20 odd years back - it was clearly related to pullups (mainly doing too many) but I can't pin these present niggles to anything specific...
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In my experience, pinching and using slopers - anything involving squeezing with the arm slightly bent. I can crimp limestone for a fortnight solid without my golfer's getting worse, but a day at Almscliff can ruin me. The physical exertion of the squeezing doesn't seem to be terribly important. A heavy week of office work or driving also aggravates it badly - using a mouse and holding the steering wheel.
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Lots of info about how to help/prevent/fix Golfers - but not much about what specific climbing action causes it?
I ask as I've slightly (managable) tweaky elbows at the moment - but can't pin down what 'type' of climbing action seems to aggravate it. E.G is it crimping, big compression moves, pinches... (those are just suggestions - I have not idea really)... When I had tennis elbow 20 odd years back - it was clearly related to pullups (mainly doing too many) but I can't pin these present niggles to anything specific...
I've had a few golfers elbow twinges mainly from the gym rather than climbing. What always brings in on for me is stress on pronator teres when hand it rotated outwards or flat to the wall, pull up bar, deadlift bar or mouse/steering wheel as moose pointed out. That's obviously not very helpful because you can't do much about it. I did once use one of those ergonomic keyboards which felt quite comfy. In the gym I can avoid stressing it fairly easily using different bar types.
From memory I think Dave Mac's injury book highlights crimping, especially with hands close together as when doing pullups on a narrow fingerboard as tough on pronator teres, but I might be totally imagining that because it fits my theory.
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Is golfer's elbow the same as the problem that lots of climbers get? If so, row.
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Golfer's elbow is medial epicondylitis/osis....a problem of the forearm muscles insertion at the elbow. Rowing is a pulling action and stresses the same tendons, so that seems an improbable cure ....
I found campussing quite bad for my elbows, I'd be wary of it if you're also climbing a fair bit.
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I never campus...
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I am never on campus...
Doesn't surprise me, academics these days......
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I am never on campus...
Doesn't surprise me, academics these days......
Well I am only 50% now...
Today though I have been reminded of how absolutely fucking shite certain sections of University administration are.. So I wish I hadn't been on campus.
Anyway - before I explode - back to topic. And breathe.
So any other views/triggers? There doesn't seem to be any consensus above...
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Its probably nothing to do with the actual elbows or any specific climbing action that causes it, I reckon in most cases it'll be down to something in back and/or shoulders.
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Can I just blame the government?
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Pull ups fry my elbows, but work, hunched over a laptop, driving definitely set it off too. But pull ups on a finger board slaughter them.
Punching straight armed at karate doesn't help either.
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Golfer's elbow is medial epicondylitis/osis....a problem of the forearm muscles insertion at the elbow. Rowing is a pulling action and stresses the same tendons, so that seems an improbable cure ....
I found campussing quite bad for my elbows, I'd be wary of it if you're also climbing a fair bit.
Speculation isn't super helpful.
I don't pretend to know names of muscles and the like. However...elbow pain can be related to muscle imbalance. Really strong chest muscles pull your shoulders forward. This causes the tendons to be under constant tension and the elbows pay the price. If this is the case, visual cures are evident. That hunched posture that you see at the wall only too often. Sleeping on your side in bed too.
Rowing strengthens the back. As you row you need to pinch your shoulder blades together. Don't pull into your chest, pull into your stomach. Using a bar is just as, if not more so, effective as having a rowing machine.
Unless of course golfers elbow is something different.
Good luck. TT
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Anecdotally for me the things that set it off are wide squeezing/hugging positions, and slaps where i hit the hold at full stretch (the slapping arm being the victim, not the bent arm.) The worst possible thing is usually slapping up steep prows in font.
Having said that, the move up with your right hand on kudos easy way also fucked my left elbow because of the twisting motion on it, and meets neither of the above criteria.
Too much one arm lock off training without warming up.
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Cheers Andy - it's not a problem (yet) more something that can be managed at the moment. Obviously to stop it getting any worse I'd like to know what might make it worse. I deliberately vary my climbing/training so I don't do the same type of problems every session.
Having had back problems - I know there are certain moves that tweak things - so I stop and do something else and avoid. But I've not found out what might be doing a similar (less severe) thing to my elbows.
My tweaks by the way are just down (towards the hand) of the inside nobbly bit :)
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Understood. It sounds like the standard complaint. Row. At the very least it'll make you more handsome (at a distance!)
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Its probably nothing to do with the actual elbows or any specific climbing action that causes it, I reckon in most cases it'll be down to something in back and/or shoulders.
This was certainly the case with me when I had it badly. Thoracic spine problems and nerve impingement in the shoulder are through bad posture/computer work was the root cause of the initial niggles which then flared up due to climbing and too much fingerboarding (that is climbing aggressively aggravated an existing condition rather than being the cause of the problem). The first physio I went to sorted out the golfers elbow and he continued with this diagnosis even when it came back. A change of physio and a new diagnosis determined the root cause and fixed it pretty quickly. Deadlifting then stopped it happening again.
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Suggestions taken on board - but I'm not overly keen on rowing (unless you mean arguing with mrsTT - in which case I get a fair amount of practice ;) ) ditto Gym's/Deadlifting - not something I've really tried or expect I'd like...
My thoracic spine is miles more flexible than it was pre back probkems of a year ago - and my seating (car, work, home) is much better.. Though I still should do more of those pec stretches I'm supposed to do.
Interesting about sleeping on your side being bad for it.. I sleep on my side and front - never my back (unless completely muntered..)
How about yoga...?
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Golfer's elbow is medial epicondylitis/osis....a problem of the forearm muscles insertion at the elbow. Rowing is a pulling action and stresses the same tendons, so that seems an improbable cure ....
I found campussing quite bad for my elbows, I'd be wary of it if you're also climbing a fair bit.
Speculation isn't super helpful.
I don't pretend to know names of muscles and the like. However...elbow pain can be related to muscle imbalance. Really strong chest muscles pull your shoulders forward. This causes the tendons to be under constant tension and the elbows pay the price. If this is the case, visual cures are evident. That hunched posture that you see at the wall only too often. Sleeping on your side in bed too.
Rowing strengthens the back. As you row you need to pinch your shoulder blades together. Don't pull into your chest, pull into your stomach. Using a bar is just as, if not more so, effective as having a rowing machine.
Unless of course golfers elbow is something different.
Good luck. TT
I don't think you understood my post. I'd be wary of an exercise that further loads a damaged tendon. It's not speculation (like suggesting the OP's problem may be overly strong pecs and needs to strengthen his back, for example), it's doubt.
That said, if your guess is right, rowing might be just the thing. Short of seeing a physio, trial and error might find a solution, so it might be worth a punt.
TT- yoga: >6,000 years of putting bodies back into alignment. Do something strenuous though, like Ashtanga. In fact just do Ashtanga, doubt you'll regret it. http://www.yoga-manchester.co.uk/ (http://www.yoga-manchester.co.uk/) are excellent, I'd recommend Matt Ryan but they are all good.
edit:
yoga stuff
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Several different structures could cause inner elbow pain and each of these could be the final common pathway for a number of dysfunctions elsewhere. It's quite likely Golfer's elbow is a collection of different problems each with different aggravating factors.
In my case, an unvaried diet of crimping and pull-ups did the trick in the first place. Keeping my shoulders strong mostly keeps it at bay now, deep locks can still stir it up a little.
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I haven't had a flair up for a while( famous last words) but I can feel a twinge when doing dumbbell bent over rows. Last time it faired up was when I injured my leg so I was doing pull,ups and dead hanging.
I might be back on here next week asking for advise. :-\
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I haven't had a flair up for a while( famous last words) but I can feel a twinge when doing dumbbell bent over rows. Last time it faired up was when I injured my leg so I was doing pull,ups and dead hanging.
I might be back on here next week asking for advise. :-\
:( I've found dead hanging (slightly bent elbows) bit with no pull ups or that type of movement was fine for my elbows. Even on small crimps.
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Without quoting lots of the good points above by all,I guess the thing I omitted to include was that this has worked for me. It's been passed on to me by another climber who suffered, and I've passed it on to others who have had similarly positive outcomes. Most recently a friend who was recently unable to climb quickly lost this aggravation through this advice. I do stand by it.
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Pulling/locking off on slopers holds, the kind usually you would find on a comp slab or something like that. I get warning twinges immediately. My worst nightmare is a mantle onto slopers with no feet. Avoid like the plague.
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Can I just blame the government?
I thought migrants were the common default.
I've found any elbow problems I had were caused by crap posture, desk work tight forearms etc. I've started doing a lot more stretching to loosen forearm muscles and occasionally working them with a foam roller. If I feel elbows starting to seize up and get too painful I go to a sports massage and he really sorts them out.
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I've found dead hanging (slightly bent elbows) bit with no pull ups or that type of movement was fine for my elbows. Even on small crimps.
Sane here; finger-board sessions of weighted hangs do not aggravate my elbows. Repeaters with varying lock-off angles do though.
And +1 to the role of posture. I had persistent neck / shoulder problems due to crap posture and weedy supra-spinatus muscle that was allowing my shoulders to displace slightly, out and over my back. The physio thought it was also contributing to a simultaneous flare up of my elbow - due to the shoulder impinging on nerves that led down the arm. I don't know if that was correct myself, but the exercise regime I was put on (lots of the theraband stretches) did clear up both my neck and elbow problems.
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For me it's not so much to do with what the elbow is doing but more what the wrist is doing. Anecdotally I've suffered from tendonitis for the last 15 or so years but keep it in check these days with an understanding of what hurts it and what helps it.
When I first started getting it I would just try to keep climbing on easier problems at the wall but this just made it worse. I later realised I could train on my 55 without any pain at all. I believe this is because a bent wrist position stretches and aggravates the tendon more than a straight wrist position. So climbing on jugs down the wall, your wrist is bent the whole time as your hand is going right into the jug, whereas hanging on a steep board on small edges your wrist is straight so no pain.
When it does flare up, I do reverse wrist curls with a heavy dumbbell and this really helps.
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Not overly insightful and rather broad but the American Journal of Epidemiology contains this study which found...
Smoking, obesity, repetitive movements, and forceful activities independently of each other showed significant associations with medial epicondylitis. (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/164/11/1065.short)
You could look and see if subsequent work which cites this paper includes more specific studies in climbers and/or search sports journals for relevant articles.
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Its probably nothing to do with the actual elbows or any specific climbing action that causes it, I reckon in most cases it'll be down to something in back and/or shoulders.
This was certainly the case with me when I had it badly. Thoracic spine problems and nerve impingement in the shoulder are through bad posture/computer work was the root cause of the initial niggles which then flared up due to climbing and too much fingerboarding (that is climbing aggressively aggravated an existing condition rather than being the cause of the problem). The first physio I went to sorted out the golfers elbow and he continued with this diagnosis even when it came back. A change of physio and a new diagnosis determined the root cause and fixed it pretty quickly. Deadlifting then stopped it happening again.
Very much agree with this - my golfers was aggravated to the point of nerve damage by climbing (particularly deep locks), but underlying was bad posture when working at the computer. Spending hours a day getting increasingly hunched over had created fundamental imbalances, and it was only when a physio spotted this that things started getting better. Interestingly, a colleague of mine who isn't a climber had the same issues due to bad posture.
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Some common factors I've found to Golfer's Elbow sufferers (anecdotal evidence only):
Front-on, slow/static, bent-armed climbing technique (onsight climbers seem to suffer more that redpointers/boulderers), deep lock moves, wide pinches, poor scapular stability (shoulder/postural issues). Those with falling issues also seem to suffer, maybe because fear can slow them down and causes an over-gripping static style. Also climbers with a strong one-sided preference get it worse in the elbow on the side they prefer facing. I'd zoom out from individual climbing moves and see if any other the above are common themes in your general climbing/posture.
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Thanks - no deep lock moves (not my forte) not much pinching either, nor one sided ness. My posture is not great - but much better than it was a year ago.. Which doesn't help..
My training is (at the moment) all climbing about 50/50 wall outdoors at the moment. I also try and mix up what I do on different sessions (overhanging one time, walls other, crimps, big holds etc). I do no campussing - nor repeat moves in hard situations (eg on a woody).
Possibly this is the problem with figuring out the possible causes! But I'm fairly sure the variety is good!!
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For me it's not so much to do with what the elbow is doing but more what the wrist is doing. Anecdotally I've suffered from tendonitis for the last 15 or so years but keep it in check these days with an understanding of what hurts it and what helps it.
When I first started getting it I would just try to keep climbing on easier problems at the wall but this just made it worse. I later realised I could train on my 55 without any pain at all. I believe this is because a bent wrist position stretches and aggravates the tendon more than a straight wrist position. So climbing on jugs down the wall, your wrist is bent the whole time as your hand is going right into the jug, whereas hanging on a steep board on small edges your wrist is straight so no pain.
When it does flare up, I do reverse wrist curls with a heavy dumbbell and this really helps.
Seems to be the same for me, never made the conclusion it was about the wrist just thought it was the amount of time I spent on the wall that made the difference but this seems more correct thinking about it.
My weight seems to be important too, never had elbow problems under a certain weight but going over that mark seems to give me 75% chance to accuire some elbow issues :(
//Tresor
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Lots of info about how to help/prevent/fix Golfers - but not much about what specific climbing action causes it?
I ask as I've slightly (managable) tweaky elbows at the moment - but can't pin down what 'type' of climbing action seems to aggravate it. E.G is it crimping, big compression moves, pinches... (those are just suggestions - I have not idea really)... When I had tennis elbow 20 odd years back - it was clearly related to pullups (mainly doing too many) but I can't pin these present niggles to anything specific...
I've had a few golfers elbow twinges mainly from the gym rather than climbing. What always brings in on for me is stress on pronator teres when hand it rotated outwards or flat to the wall, pull up bar, deadlift bar or mouse/steering wheel as moose pointed out. That's obviously not very helpful because you can't do much about it. I did once use one of those ergonomic keyboards which felt quite comfy. In the gym I can avoid stressing it fairly easily using different bar types.
From memory I think Dave Mac's injury book highlights crimping, especially with hands close together as when doing pullups on a narrow fingerboard as tough on pronator teres, but I might be totally imagining that because it fits my theory.
I have not come across that advice in Make or Break yet. He mentions that deep locks are a cause and recommends more dynamic climbing, although as always he says more research is needed.
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Mine has now gone - largely due to some fairly hard stretching and dumbell eccentrics. Cleared up nicely.
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Lots of info about how to help/prevent/fix Golfers - but not much about what specific climbing action causes it?
I ask as I've slightly (managable) tweaky elbows at the moment - but can't pin down what 'type' of climbing action seems to aggravate it. E.G is it crimping, big compression moves, pinches... (those are just suggestions - I have not idea really)... When I had tennis elbow 20 odd years back - it was clearly related to pullups (mainly doing too many) but I can't pin these present niggles to anything specific...
I've had a few golfers elbow twinges mainly from the gym rather than climbing. What always brings in on for me is stress on pronator teres when hand it rotated outwards or flat to the wall, pull up bar, deadlift bar or mouse/steering wheel as moose pointed out. That's obviously not very helpful because you can't do much about it. I did once use one of those ergonomic keyboards which felt quite comfy. In the gym I can avoid stressing it fairly easily using different bar types.
From memory I think Dave Mac's injury book highlights crimping, especially with hands close together as when doing pullups on a narrow fingerboard as tough on pronator teres, but I might be totally imagining that because it fits my theory.
I have not come across that advice in Make or Break yet. He mentions that deep locks are a cause and recommends more dynamic climbing, although as always he says more research is needed.
Yep it says that crimping "activates the wrist flexors more forcefully than openhanding. Overuse of crimping aggravates the condition markedly, and may be an important cause".
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Having suffered with tennis elbow (alot) and golfers elbow (occasionally) I have to admit I seriously have no idea what causes flare-ups of the Golfers. Tennis elbow seems to mostly be brought on by sustained small crimps on slightly overhanging walls, though not always. Golfers is almost completely random, though I suspect alot of it has to do with computer use.
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I thought dead hanging on finger boards contributed to this elbow issue and that holding arms slightly bent was the better technique? Is that not right or am I thinking of another elbow problem?
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Having a large number of days on without rest days is what does it to me, but this is quite stupid
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Typical pattern is onset a couple of days after activity.
After you have been sitting at your desk working for 2 days maybe?
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+1 for computer use and poor shoulder/back posture as root cause.
Intermitent golfers and tennis over years, always seems to fade away when I remind myself to focus on stretching back, chest, shoulders.
Interestingly also recently discovered how much posture can affect arm strength/power when there's a bit of shoulder/neck nerve impingemnt involved. A subtle chin tuck is all it takes to notice a difference in my right arm.
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Interestingly also recently discovered how much posture can affect arm strength/power when there's a bit of shoulder/neck nerve impingemnt involved. A subtle chin tuck is all it takes to notice a difference in my right arm.
i found something similar by setting my scapula prior to trying any maximal efforts. this also made a massive difference to grip strength, which would not necessarily be obvious (where it might be obvious for a shoulder rotation). went from being nowhere near able to close a CoC 1.5 in either hand to closing it immediately and with relative ease in each hand by setting scapula prior to squeezing
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I concur on the computer use. The day after a hard climbing session, if I have to use the mouse all day, it plays havoc with my elbow. I find one of those foam wrist supports helps a lot. As does trying to use as many keyboard shortcuts as possible. (I'm a designer, so don't type much, but do lots of mouse work.)
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Forgot to say I also got myself a microsoft wave keyboard and evoluent mouse. Really seemed to help calm down elbow/forearm strain at the office - noticed an improvement within a week although it might have been the placebo of dropping £150+.