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the shizzle => news => Topic started by: HaeMeS on October 22, 2017, 06:35:27 pm

Title: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: HaeMeS on October 22, 2017, 06:35:27 pm
Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b! La Planta de Shiva 9b in Villanueva del Rosario, Spain (FA by Adam Ondra). Source 8a.nu/Austrians on Facebook.

 :o  :clap2:  :beer2:
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: HaeMeS on October 22, 2017, 06:55:35 pm
4 times world champion  :tease:

Edit: Replied to deleted post...
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Danny on October 22, 2017, 07:00:01 pm
Amazing. Regarding women and 9b+: seems more and more likely by the day.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: bendavison on October 22, 2017, 07:02:31 pm
This is flippin amazing
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: jwi on October 22, 2017, 07:22:34 pm
Mind-blowing  :bounce:
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Danny on October 22, 2017, 07:23:45 pm
 "One of my hardest so far, pure endurance climbing with few rests, continuously hard with minimum of rests."—Adam Ondra
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Danny on October 22, 2017, 09:44:06 pm
Ondra making it look like a not-path:

https://vimeo.com/groups/iloveclimbing/videos/25514787
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Wood FT on October 22, 2017, 10:19:22 pm
brilliant!
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: T_B on October 22, 2017, 10:24:49 pm
Amazing.

That Ondra footage is awesome - clips one draw in how many moves?!
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: remus on October 22, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
Thats well cool! Some serious dispatching going on this year.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: bigironhorse on October 22, 2017, 10:49:11 pm
Great news!  :strongbench: :strongbench:

Does anybody know the URL for that website (french one I think) where you can search through routes graded 9a and above and there are lists of who has climbed them?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: bigironhorse on October 22, 2017, 10:51:13 pm
Great news!  :strongbench: :strongbench:

Does anybody know the URL for that website (french one I think) where you can search through routes graded 9a and above and there are lists of who has climbed them?

Found it http://escalade9.wifeo.com/
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duma on October 23, 2017, 08:16:11 am
Awesome stuff :bow:
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: cowboyhat on October 23, 2017, 10:27:29 am
This is surprising, I had no idea any women were close to this grade since recent 9a+ was being so lauded.

Seems like a really outstanding achievement, as significant as Silence 9c.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: jwi on October 23, 2017, 10:33:07 am
The ninth man to climb a 9b is a woman. There's only one spot left to be among the first ten, so get training!
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duma on October 23, 2017, 12:19:32 pm
jwi - someone on UKC posted this list - I guess you're discounting Chilam Balam(9a+), Ali-Hulk (sit start nonsense), Es Pontas (never given 9b), Meiose (FA, unconfirmed?), Rainman (FA unconfirmed?), the Fred Rouhling routes, and Delincuente Natural (extension)?


#1 Adam Ondra (23): Change, Chaxi Raxi, Chilam Balam, C.R.S., Fight or Flight, First Round First Minute, Golpe de Estado, Iron Curtain, La Capella, La Dura Dura, La Planta de Shiva, Lapsus, Mamichula, Marina Superstar, Move, Move Hard, Queen Line, Robin úd, Silence, Stoking the Fire, Torture Physique Integrale, Vasil Vasil, Vicious Circle
#2 Chris Sharma (10): Alasha, El Bon Combat, Es Pontas, Fight or Flight, First Round First Minute, Golpe de Estado, Jumbo Love, La Dura Dura, Neanderthal, Stoking the Fire
#3 Daniel Andrada Jiménez (3): Ali Hulk (sit start extension), Chilam Balam, Delincuente Natural (extension)
#4 Alexander Megos (3): Fightclub, First Round First Minute, Supernova
#5 Frédéric Rouhling (3): Akira, Empreintes, Salamandre
#6 Stefano Ghisolfi (2): First Round First Minute, Lapsus
#7 Jakob Schubert (2): Fight or Flight, La Planta de Shiva
#8 Sachi Amma (1): Fight or Flight
#9 Pirmin Bertle (1): Meiose
#10 Sébastien Bouin (1): Chilam Balam
#11 Angela Eiter (1): La Planta de Shiva
#12 Bernabé Fernández (1): Chilam Balam
#13 Ramón Julián Puigblanque (1): Catxasa R2
#14 Jernej Kruder (1): Es Pontas
#15 Eduard Marín García (1): Chilam Balam
#16 Steve McClure (1): Rainman
#17 Magnus Midtbø (1): Ali Hulk (sit start extension)
#18 Ethan Pringle (1): Jumbo Love
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: jwi on October 23, 2017, 03:08:02 pm
Nothing with a sit start, no mystery belayers, and since Seb the great doesn't want to count Chilam Balam as 9b for himself it's also discounted. Adam Ondra flashed both Chromosomes and estimates the connection (Meiose) to 9a/+

I'm irritated that some of these routes are mentioned in the same breath as La Planta de Shiva.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: monkoffunk on October 23, 2017, 05:16:16 pm
Might have slept through some thing but is Rainman disputed??
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: duncan on October 23, 2017, 07:24:04 pm
This is really impressive of Angela. The video Danny posted of Ondra on this epitomises current hard sport climbing.


The mighty nine:

#1 Adam Ondra (22): Change, Chaxi Raxi, C.R.S., Fight or Flight, First Round First Minute, Golpe de Estado, Iron Curtain, La Capella, La Dura Dura, La Planta de Shiva, Lapsus, Mamichula, Marina Superstar, Move, Move Hard, Queen Line, Robin úd, Silence, Stoking the Fire, Torture Physique Integrale, Vasil Vasil, Vicious Circle
#2 Chris Sharma (8 ): El Bon Combat, Fight or Flight, First Round First Minute, Golpe de Estado, Jumbo Love, La Dura Dura, Neanderthal, Stoking the Fire
#3 Alexander Megos (3): Fightclub, First Round First Minute, Supernova
#4 Stefano Ghisolfi (2): First Round First Minute, Lapsus
#5 Jakob Schubert (2): Fight or Flight, La Planta de Shiva
#6 Sachi Amma (1): Fight or Flight
#7 Angela Eiter (1): La Planta de Shiva
#8 Steve McClure (1): Rainman
#9 Ethan Pringle (1): Jumbo Love     

Didn’t make the cut:

Chilam Balam: Seb says 9a+ (but Ondra says 9b and should have as good an idea as anyone...)
Meiose: Ondra says no.
Catxasa R2: 9a+/b
Es Pontas: ungraded DWS
Alasha: ungraded DWS
Delincuente Natural (extension): boulder problem   
Ali Hulk (sit start extension): boulder problem
Akira: boulder problem
Empreintes: no precise grade (“9a-b”)
Salamandre: no precise grade (“9?”)

Comments and corrections to jwi please!
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: jwi on October 23, 2017, 08:56:36 pm
That seems to be as far as I understand it from the consensus/whisperings of local hard men around here. Still only 5 humans that managed more than one. Also worth mentioning that Schubert found La Planta de Shiva harder than Fight or Flight (source (http://www.bergsteigen.com/news/la-planta-de-shiva-9b)).

Daniel Andrada also calls Chilam Balam 9a+ (source (https://planetgrimpe.com/2015/11/dani-andrada-repete-chilam-balam-9b/))
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fiend on October 25, 2017, 10:13:25 am
This is phenomenal. Such a great step. It doesn't seem that long ago that gurls climbing 8c (the first bit lol) was vaguely newsworthy?? 9b is still actually hard hard these days!

Gotta rewatch the video a 2nd time. It does look like the style of rock in the main section looks like a sensible route choice to go for, lots of little features to work out sequences if you don't have Ondra's morphology (it also looks like arse IMO, an orange version of Peak lime).
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Will Hunt on October 25, 2017, 11:25:14 am
Quote from: some bloke on UKC
Maybe we are now looking at a crossover point where on the latest uber steep routes with tiny holds, the top ladies with their light frames can not only compete with (traditionally) more powerful men, but beat them eg. Eiter 46k. Shiraishi 40k. v Ondra 68k. Megos 57k. Sharma 75k.
 Even with more muscle carrying an extra 20k is quite a handicap. Try it down at the wall!

 Just a thought!

Any science or sense behind this?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: jwi on October 25, 2017, 11:43:44 am
The scaling law (strength is proportional to area, weight is proportional to volume) says that the smaller animal has a higher strength/weight ratio, all else being equal. However the scaling law is not really true (strength is not precisely proportional to area) and all else is not equal.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: duncan on October 27, 2017, 04:52:02 pm

Salamandre: no precise grade (“9?”)



Salamandre has just been repeated by Baptiste Dherbilly who clearly reads ukb and felt the need to clarify the grade: 8a into a 8A+/B boulder, followed by 7/8 moves in the 8b+ range (http://fanatic-climbing.com/premiere-repetition-de-salamandre-par-baptiste-dherbilly-first-repeat-of-salamandre-by-baptiste-dherbilly/).
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Will Hunt on October 27, 2017, 06:02:41 pm
Well that's cleared that up then.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Kingy on October 27, 2017, 07:01:16 pm
Sticking his head over the parapet there!  :P
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: sdm on December 16, 2020, 07:39:15 pm
Looks like Angela Eiter has added a ~9b first ascent of Madame Ching in Austria:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe (https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe)

She doesn't commit to a grade but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva.

There's footage on over-caffeinated sugary drink company's website (link in her bio).
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 17, 2020, 01:46:18 am
Looks like Angela Eiter has added a ~9b first ascent of Madame Ching in Austria:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe (https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe)

She doesn't commit to a grade but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva.

There's footage on over-caffeinated sugary drink company's website (link in her bio).

What's her L-sit score?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Bradders on December 17, 2020, 06:43:03 am
Fantastic for her.

Would be interesting to see an update of the list in the first page of this thread, on people who've climbed 9b. If this is her second I imagine that puts her in an absolutely tiny group of people who've done more than one?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Wood FT on December 17, 2020, 06:50:43 am
grotty looking rock, I respect that.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: JohnM on December 17, 2020, 08:54:23 am
Looks like Angela Eiter has added a ~9b first ascent of Madame Ching in Austria:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe (https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe)

She doesn't commit to a grade but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva.

There's footage on over-caffeinated sugary drink company's website (link in her bio).

She looks ill in that video.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: remus on December 17, 2020, 08:58:58 am
Would be interesting to see an update of the list in the first page of this thread, on people who've climbed 9b. If this is her second I imagine that puts her in an absolutely tiny group of people who've done more than one?

Word up to jwi as this is largely based on his list https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=29904.0

Adam Ondra, 9c, Silence (https://climbing-history.org/climb/465)
Alex Megos, 9c, Bibliographie (https://climbing-history.org/climb/466)
Stefano Ghisolfi, 9b+, Change (https://climbing-history.org/climb/469), Perfecto Mundo (https://climbing-history.org/climb/471)
Chris Sharma, 9b+, La Dura Dura (https://climbing-history.org/climb/470)
Jakob Schubert, 9b+, Perfecto Mundo (https://climbing-history.org/climb/471)
Sébastien Bouin, 9b, Mamichula (https://climbing-history.org/climb/494), La Rage d'Adam (https://climbing-history.org/climb/473), Move (https://climbing-history.org/climb/474), The Dream (https://climbing-history.org/climb/503), Les Yeux Plus Gros que l'Antre (https://climbing-history.org/climb/504)
Sachi Amma, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502), Soul Mate (https://climbing-history.org/climb/500)
Dani Andrada, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/477), Delincuente Natural (extension) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/482)
Angela Eiter, 9b, Madame Ching (https://climbing-history.org/climb/549), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jonathan Siegrest, 9b, La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492), Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490)
Jorge Díaz-Rullo, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jonatan Flor, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Magnus Midtbø, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/477)
Ethan Pringle, 9b, Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490)
Steve McClure, 9b, Rainman (https://climbing-history.org/climb/4)
Daniel Woods, 9b, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Matty Hong, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Pirmin Bertle, 9b, La Barrière (https://climbing-history.org/climb/491)
Piotr Schab, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Jonathan Guadalcázar, 9b, Ataxia Hiperextension (https://climbing-history.org/climb/478)
Hugo Parmentier, 9b, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)
Will Bosi, 9b, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Alessandro Zeni, 9b, Cryptography (https://climbing-history.org/climb/481)
Laura Rogora, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Dani Fuertes, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Hyunbin Min, 9b, Soul Rock Dance (https://climbing-history.org/climb/501)
Dave Graham, 9b, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Julia Chanourdie, 9b, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: remus on December 17, 2020, 09:08:21 am
And for the bonus point, this is (pretty close to) all 9bs that have been climbed. In case we had forgotten what a beast Adam is, he's done more 9bs than the rest of the top 4 combined.

Adam Ondra, Move (https://climbing-history.org/climb/474), Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), First Round, First Minute (https://climbing-history.org/climb/487), Iron Curtain (https://climbing-history.org/climb/489), La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492), Lapsus (https://climbing-history.org/climb/493), Mamichula (https://climbing-history.org/climb/494), Move Hard (https://climbing-history.org/climb/495), Neanderthal (https://climbing-history.org/climb/496), One Slap (https://climbing-history.org/climb/497), Queen Line (https://climbing-history.org/climb/498), Robin úd (https://climbing-history.org/climb/499), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502), Disbelief (https://climbing-history.org/climb/483), Chaxiraxi (https://climbing-history.org/climb/479), Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484), C.R.S. (https://climbing-history.org/climb/480), Golpe de Estado (https://climbing-history.org/climb/488)
Chris Sharma, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), First Round, First Minute (https://climbing-history.org/climb/487), Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490), Neanderthal (https://climbing-history.org/climb/496), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502), Golpe de Estado (https://climbing-history.org/climb/488)
Stefano Ghisolfi, First Round, First Minute (https://climbing-history.org/climb/487), La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42), Lapsus (https://climbing-history.org/climb/493), One Slap (https://climbing-history.org/climb/497), Queen Line (https://climbing-history.org/climb/498), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502)
Sébastien Bouin, La Rage d'Adam (https://climbing-history.org/climb/473), Move (https://climbing-history.org/climb/474), Mamichula (https://climbing-history.org/climb/494), The Dream (https://climbing-history.org/climb/503), Les Yeux Plus Gros que l'Antre (https://climbing-history.org/climb/504)
Jakob Schubert, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492), Neanderthal (https://climbing-history.org/climb/496), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502)
Sachi Amma, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), Soul Mate (https://climbing-history.org/climb/500), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502)
Dani Andrada, Ali Hulk (extension sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/477), Delincuente Natural (extension) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/482)
Alex Megos, Fight Club (https://climbing-history.org/climb/485), First Round, First Minute (https://climbing-history.org/climb/487)
Angela Eiter, La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492), Madame Ching (https://climbing-history.org/climb/549)
Jonathan Siegrest, Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jorge Díaz-Rullo, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jonatan Flor, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Magnus Midtbø, Ali Hulk (extension sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/477)
Ethan Pringle, Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490)
Steve McClure, Rainman (https://climbing-history.org/climb/4)
Daniel Woods, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Matty Hong, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Pirmin Bertle, La Barrière (https://climbing-history.org/climb/491)
Piotr Schab, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Jonathan Guadalcázar, Ataxia Hiperextension (https://climbing-history.org/climb/478)
Hugo Parmentier, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)
Will Bosi, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Alessandro Zeni, Cryptography (https://climbing-history.org/climb/481)
Laura Rogora, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Dani Fuertes, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Dave Graham, Ali Hulk (extension total sit start) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/476)
Hyunbin Min, Soul Rock Dance (https://climbing-history.org/climb/501)
Julia Chanourdie, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 09:16:46 am
Looks like Angela Eiter has added a ~9b first ascent of Madame Ching in Austria:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe (https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe)

She doesn't commit to a grade but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva.

There's footage on over-caffeinated sugary drink company's website (link in her bio).

She looks ill in that video.

That’ll be the over-caffeinated sugary drink company. Lovely stuff .
 https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/red-bull-side-effects#side-effects (https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/red-bull-side-effects#side-effects)

Needs to get some cheese n chip butties, pilchards and spam in her. 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duma on December 17, 2020, 09:22:18 am
I really don't understand how the fuck the sit/boulder starts count.

Interesting to see what others grade it - if you're as tiny as Eiter it must be a nightmare trying to put a number on things, I don't blame her for being reluctant!
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fiend on December 17, 2020, 10:25:52 am
I really don't understand how the fuck the sit/boulder starts count.

Nuke it from the list!!

John M good point. But you're very light right, and understand the demands for power-weight ratio? Obviously taken to extremes in this case.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: JohnM on December 17, 2020, 10:48:02 am
I really don't understand how the fuck the sit/boulder starts count.

Nuke it from the list!!

John M good point. But you're very light right, and understand the demands for power-weight ratio? Obviously taken to extremes in this case.

I am not particularly light. I know that power to weight ratio makes a massive difference though. I just see a lot of posts from various coaches and training companies saying that you shouldn't and don't need to get too light to climb hard but wonder if young girls/women will look a such a video put out by over-caffeinated sugary drink company and decide otherwise.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 11:05:30 am
I really don't understand how the fuck the sit/boulder starts count.
.

Nuke it from the list!!

John M good point. But you're very light right, and understand the demands for power-weight ratio? Obviously taken to extremes in this case.

It’s a good watch if slow death by malnutrition while moving up a rock is your thing
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 17, 2020, 11:11:58 am
Shes always looked like that so its not a new thing. Whilst it really does not look healthy it is possible she is naturally tiny and just lost a few exrta lbs for the route just like gresham and Macleod preach to everyone they need to do.

Steve Mc always looks ill and emaciated to me compared to normal people but i dont think he is.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 17, 2020, 11:13:09 am
And in relation to the list i dont think the ali hulk things should be on there. Proper bobbins and also look overgraded with pads.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 12:01:47 pm
My brother in law has always looked 25 stone. Doesn’t make it healthy .
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 17, 2020, 02:19:29 pm
Looks like Angela Eiter has added a ~9b first ascent of Madame Ching in Austria:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe (https://www.instagram.com/p/CI2u1jVnCEt/?igshid=11bqyi2h4fhoe)

She doesn't commit to a grade but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva.

There's footage on over-caffeinated sugary drink company's website (link in her bio).

What's her L-sit score?

Seriously, fantastic and inspiring  :2thumbsup:

Shes always looked like that so its not a new thing. Whilst it really does not look healthy it is possible she is naturally tiny and just lost a few exrta lbs for the route just like gresham and Macleod preach to everyone they need to do.

Steve Mc always looks ill and emaciated to me compared to normal people but i dont think he is.

Agreed. Have to say, I didn't think she looked particularly unhealthy. I can imagine it would be difficult to perform at a very high level without good nutrition, but good to flag up the concerns.

Thanks for the list Remus/Jwi.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 17, 2020, 03:09:10 pm
My comment isn't written very well. I think she looks really unhealthy, to thin and much older than she is (34).

However i am not saying she is malnourished, as implied by others, just that she looks it.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: moose on December 17, 2020, 03:15:46 pm
My comment isn't written very well. I think she looks really unhealthy, to thin and much older than she is (34).

The first thing I did after watching the video was Google her age - the skin tone around her eyes and neck makes her look older than she is.  Mind you, that could be a life spent outdoors in sunny places rather than anything to do with nutrition.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 04:43:52 pm
I’m glad I live here then if that’s what sun does to you. She looks like death warmed up. If my daughter ever gets into climbing when she’s older there’s no way I’d show her that.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: JohnM on December 17, 2020, 05:13:36 pm
Anyone who thinks she looks even close to being healthy must live in a separate reality to me. I found it difficult to watch from that perspective. Having said that I realise that high performance sport doesn't always equal healthy. She hasn't always looked like that either if you look at her older pictures. I also couldn't believe she was younger than me which I also realise is a nasty thing to say and basically just commenting on someone else looks.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: petejh on December 17, 2020, 05:57:31 pm
I can't see this thread ending well!  :worms:

Just watched her film. For what my views on female looks are worth (not much), I think she looks like many other women you might meet in alpine regions who are 'lifers' and have spent large portions of their lives up high. No idea of her background - if she'd spent her life in a low-lying area out of harsh sun and mostly going indoors then I'd probably think differently. The alpine sun is harsh on skin, if she's been going up in the mountains for 15-20 years then mid thirties is when it starts to show in some people. I'm assuming here she probably enjoys all aspects of being active in the high mountains - running, climbing, skiing, alpinism, hiking and she obviously enjoys taking this to the extremes of performance. She's obviously trimmed to the bone and muscular - you can't get muscles like that avoiding nutritious food - and in the shape of her life as a climber. Not sure I see that physique as 'unhealthy', just a result of her lifestyle and it probably fluctuates. It's undoubtedly a look that doesn't conform to the traditional norm of feminine beauty but I'm not convinced anything about it is any more or less 'unhealthy' than other elite athletes. Also have to remember she's a mid-thirties adult with adult agency not a teenager.

I think we could find the same lean haggard bodies and faces among many 'mountain lifer' guys all over the world and they'd be described as 'craggy' or 'weather-beaten' without concern for their health. It's certainly not a look you get from spending a life in Wetherspoons!

She'll probably be jogging up mountains in her 60s when average people are growing their bellies on the sofa.

 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fiend on December 17, 2020, 07:06:19 pm
Word up to jwi as this is largely based on his list https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=29904.0

Adam Ondra, 9c, Silence (https://climbing-history.org/climb/465)
Alex Megos, 9c, Bibliographie (https://climbing-history.org/climb/466)
Stefano Ghisolfi, 9b+, Change (https://climbing-history.org/climb/469), Perfecto Mundo (https://climbing-history.org/climb/471)
Chris Sharma, 9b+, La Dura Dura (https://climbing-history.org/climb/470)
Jakob Schubert, 9b+, Perfecto Mundo (https://climbing-history.org/climb/471)
Sébastien Bouin, 9b, Mamichula (https://climbing-history.org/climb/494), La Rage d'Adam (https://climbing-history.org/climb/473), Move (https://climbing-history.org/climb/474), The Dream (https://climbing-history.org/climb/503), Les Yeux Plus Gros que l'Antre (https://climbing-history.org/climb/504)
Sachi Amma, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486), Stoking the Fire (https://climbing-history.org/climb/502), Soul Mate (https://climbing-history.org/climb/500)
Dani Andrada, 9b, Delincuente Natural (extension) (https://climbing-history.org/climb/482)
Angela Eiter, 9b, Madame Ching (https://climbing-history.org/climb/549), La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jonathan Siegrest, 9b, La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492), Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490)
Jorge Díaz-Rullo, 9b, La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Jonatan Flor, 9b, La Planta de Shiva (https://climbing-history.org/climb/492)
Ethan Pringle, 9b, Jumbo Love (https://climbing-history.org/climb/490)
Steve McClure, 9b, Rainman (https://climbing-history.org/climb/4)
Daniel Woods, 9b, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Matty Hong, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Pirmin Bertle, 9b, La Barrière (https://climbing-history.org/climb/491)
Piotr Schab, 9b, Fight or Flight (https://climbing-history.org/climb/486)
Jonathan Guadalcázar, 9b, Ataxia Hiperextension (https://climbing-history.org/climb/478)
Hugo Parmentier, 9b, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)
Will Bosi, 9b, La Capella (https://climbing-history.org/climb/42)
Alessandro Zeni, 9b, Cryptography (https://climbing-history.org/climb/481)
Hyunbin Min, 9b, Soul Rock Dance (https://climbing-history.org/climb/501)
Julia Chanourdie, 9b, Eagle-4 (https://climbing-history.org/climb/484)

Tidied up a bit...

Pete isn't the possible, theoretical, hypothetical issue less about looking outdoorsy and well-weathered, and more about implicitly highlighting extreme weight watching and nutrition tinkering and eating disorders as a path to success (of course some people do that explicitly, but at least the Dmac/Gresh interview was full of disclaimers ;))

Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 17, 2020, 07:16:00 pm
I can't see this thread ending well!  :worms:

Just watched her film. For what my views on female looks are worth (not much), I think she looks like many other women you might meet in alpine regions who are 'lifers' and have spent large portions of their lives up high. No idea of her background - if she'd spent her life in a low-lying area out of harsh sun and mostly going indoors then I'd probably think differently. The alpine sun is harsh on skin, if she's been going up in the mountains for 15-20 years then mid thirties is when it starts to show in some people. I'm assuming here she probably enjoys all aspects of being active in the high mountains - running, climbing, skiing, alpinism, hiking and she obviously enjoys taking this to the extremes of performance. She's obviously trimmed to the bone and muscular - you can't get muscles like that avoiding nutritious food - and in the shape of her life as a climber. Not sure I see that physique as 'unhealthy', just a result of her lifestyle and it probably fluctuates. It's undoubtedly a look that doesn't conform to the traditional norm of feminine beauty but I'm not convinced anything about it is any more or less 'unhealthy' than other elite athletes. Also have to remember she's a mid-thirties adult with adult agency not a teenager.

I think we could find the same lean haggard bodies and faces among many 'mountain lifer' guys all over the world and they'd be described as 'craggy' or 'weather-beaten' without concern for their health. It's certainly not a look you get from spending a life in Wetherspoons!

She'll probably be jogging up mountains in her 60s when average people are growing their bellies on the sofa.

I didn’t really recognise the “unhealthy” description of her, when I read the thread.
I follow her on insta, not that I pay a huge amount of attention to it, but there are often interesting& amusing  photos on her account.
I kinda get the idea that she might seem particularly ripped or under weight, in that vid, but I just flicked back through her insta and there’s a marked difference between her “Pumped” or “Straining” look and her relaxed appearance. There’s some shots of her holding a plank from June-ish where there’s no overly apparent muscle or veins popping.
She probably cut for the attempt, which wouldn’t be in the least bit unusual for any gender at that level. I mean, I have a good friend and body builder, who does those Bikini comps, the difference between her in the 10-14 days before a comp and “normal” is immense.
I mean, this was a world class ascent, at the top echelon of the sport, regardless of gender. Like, haven’t you ever looked at a female, Olympic, Marathon runner?
Worse, perhaps, is that male athletes at that level, in similar sports, probably carry very similar body fat % to their female counterparts, we’re just overly conditioned to see female bodies as requiring a certain shape.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: teestub on December 17, 2020, 07:18:25 pm

Worse, perhaps, is that male athletes at that level, in similar sports, probably carry very similar body fat % to their female counterparts, we’re just overly conditioned to see female bodies as requiring a certain shape.

Without commenting on the rest, as you and Pete have made similar comments on this, this point overlooks the different essential fat percentage between males and females.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 17, 2020, 07:45:39 pm

Worse, perhaps, is that male athletes at that level, in similar sports, probably carry very similar body fat % to their female counterparts, we’re just overly conditioned to see female bodies as requiring a certain shape.

Without commenting on the rest, as you and Pete have made similar comments on this, this point overlooks the different essential fat percentage between males and females.

No, it doesn’t, because I wouldn’t expect her to remain in that condition beyond the “event”.
If she consistently sustained an unhealthy BF% then we’re talking about a concerning issue.
Shit, when I was prepping for Expeds (cold climate) I’d load on over a Stone before and lose that and more in a couple weeks. I was like a waif when they pulled us off South Georgia after 12 days and I’d been chomping in excess of 4000 kCal every day.
Is that healthy?
Not if you do it every week, but once a year?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: teestub on December 17, 2020, 08:13:14 pm
I was only talking about your point regarding comparing body fat %age between male and female which I think is inaccurate, not your wider point re: dropping ones weight for ‘the event’ which I generally agree with.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: abarro81 on December 17, 2020, 08:56:32 pm
Pretty sure she looks like this a lot, not just when cutting for a proj. Saw her in FJ in Sept*, and she looked painfully thin

* From what I saw she wasn't in super-crusher form at that point
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 09:02:55 pm
I was only talking about your point regarding comparing body fat %age between male and female which I think is inaccurate, not your wider point re: dropping ones weight for ‘the event’ which I generally agree with.

Come off it, according to Wikipedia shes around 46kg so we’ll take that as ballpark. No one who’s around that weight should need to ‘drop weight for the event’.  That’s fucked up.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: tomtom on December 17, 2020, 09:03:23 pm
OMM’s point is very good though - how often do you see people ‘calling out’ Mo F for being dangerously skinny etc.. etc..

Re Wetherspoons - It’s strange - when I was a yoof the old alkies in the boozers were always wizened and thin - now they seem pasty red cheeked and fat...
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: teestub on December 17, 2020, 09:11:17 pm

Come off it, according to Wikipedia shes around 46kg so we’ll take that as ballpark. No one who’s around that weight should need to ‘drop weight for the event’.  That’s fucked up.

Sorry I meant in terms of a tactic in general, I'm not commenting on this particular case at all. I remember you proudly showing off your lack of podge after some intensive dieting!

OMM’s point is very good though - how often do you see people ‘calling out’ Mo F for being dangerously skinny etc.. etc..

This is my point Tom, and why a male to female comparison is inaccurate. Essential fat for males can be as low as 2% in males, so you could be Mo Farah skinny and be metabolically healthy, for females the quoted low number is 10%.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 17, 2020, 09:23:24 pm

Come off it, according to Wikipedia shes around 46kg so we’ll take that as ballpark. No one who’s around that weight should need to ‘drop weight for the event’.  That’s fucked up.

Sorry I meant in terms of a tactic in general, I'm not commenting on this particular case at all. I remember you proudly showing off your lack of podge after some intensive dieting!



[/quote]

A bit of slimming is part of the game, always will be. I’m generally a fair bit lighter in summer. Not really through dieting, I just stop eating as much garbage when it finally stops raining and get out more .   
I don’t give too much thought to peoples weight in these vids but she just looks ridiculously thin. Only other example I can think of which I’ve thought that about is Katie Brown back in the day (who admits now she had an awful eating disorder).
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: petejh on December 17, 2020, 10:30:40 pm
Re Wetherspoons - It’s strange - when I was a yoof the old alkies in the boozers were always wizened and thin - now they seem pasty red cheeked and fat...

It’s all those ‘substantial meals’.


Chris - according to reports and interviews, Katie Brown was experiencing emotional abuse from her family when she was winning climbing comps as a young teenager and struggling with ED. Classic age and circumstances for eating disorders (not that there’s an age limit).
Different context to a 35 year-old married adult. And she has guns bigger than yours! .. I can’t see how she’d keep musculature like that by chronic undernourishment.


We all know the difference in healthy fat % between men and women, thanks for the lesson.
Still bemused why this paternal instinct for waifs doesn’t rear its head to the same degree when Macleod and McClure appear looking like starving ghosts?

Apparently they have the good sense to look after themselves and know their bodies..
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: abarro81 on December 17, 2020, 10:56:34 pm
You just answered your own question.. it seems to be significantly easier for women to fuck themselves up than men by undereating. Also having seen Ste Mac and AE both in the flesh, there's only one that reminded me of a fragile looking 80year old but with skyhooks for fingers.

Good diet inspiration anyway ;)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 18, 2020, 06:18:26 am
MacLeod’s not at all comparable. I don’t see any how anyone could compare. Mcclure’s obvs tiny but I’ve never thought he looks ill or that a cold would probably finish him off. Plus he’s actually a sugar freak so I reckon that’s just his natural frame. To me this was way more visually apparent/shocking but maybe my eyes are skewed.

Plus this :
You just answered your own question.. it seems to be significantly easier for women to fuck themselves up than men by undereating.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 18, 2020, 08:32:58 am
When I saw Angy Eiter at Oliana in Feb/March this year, I thought she looked unhealthy. Obviously very skinny but also would be very wrapped up in a massive downy, gloves etc despite it being pretty warm.

She also climbed with a very slow sort of weak style of that makes any sense. Ie that she looked like she lacked power. She would often just sort of whither off moves. which fits in some ways with Mina’s experience of being undernourished reducing your power.

Which leads nicely into my next point; would any of you have said Mina looked like she wasn’t eating her energy needs? She looked super healthy but at the end of the day wasn’t.

I agree with points about AE looking old for her age. Ehh I saw her at the beginning of the year I thought she was in her 40s/50s when i googled her to see how old she was I was surprised she was as young as she is.

I guess we don’t know for sure if AE is unhealthy and maybe if she has chosen this with all the information at her disposal then who are we to judge? I guess what Doyle is getting at re young female (and male?) climbers is where the issues arise.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 18, 2020, 08:55:26 am
Ye we’re speculating on her health - we don’t know. One things for sure though it’s not a good look; and if any influential young uns are thinking that’s what it takes to climb 9b it’s not good. Looks fuckin horrible to me, I’d rather watch some old Don Willans vids on YouTube. 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: JohnM on December 18, 2020, 09:12:38 am
I can't see this thread ending well!  :worms:

Just watched her film. For what my views on female looks are worth (not much), I think she looks like many other women you might meet in alpine regions who are 'lifers' and have spent large portions of their lives up high. No idea of her background - if she'd spent her life in a low-lying area out of harsh sun and mostly going indoors then I'd probably think differently. The alpine sun is harsh on skin, if she's been going up in the mountains for 15-20 years then mid thirties is when it starts to show in some people. I'm assuming here she probably enjoys all aspects of being active in the high mountains - running, climbing, skiing, alpinism, hiking and she obviously enjoys taking this to the extremes of performance. She's obviously trimmed to the bone and muscular - you can't get muscles like that avoiding nutritious food - and in the shape of her life as a climber. Not sure I see that physique as 'unhealthy', just a result of her lifestyle and it probably fluctuates. It's undoubtedly a look that doesn't conform to the traditional norm of feminine beauty but I'm not convinced anything about it is any more or less 'unhealthy' than other elite athletes. Also have to remember she's a mid-thirties adult with adult agency not a teenager.

I think we could find the same lean haggard bodies and faces among many 'mountain lifer' guys all over the world and they'd be described as 'craggy' or 'weather-beaten' without concern for their health. It's certainly not a look you get from spending a life in Wetherspoons!

She'll probably be jogging up mountains in her 60s when average people are growing their bellies on the sofa.

Pete you have just made up a whole backstory to support your argument for her looking 'craggy'! As far as I am aware she doesn't do all the high mountain sports as you suggest and is an indoor competition climber turned rock climber who avoids the heat and sun like most people who try to climb hard! There are other climbers of a similar age who do more alpine stuff (e.g. Nina Caprez) and they don't look like that. Then again they haven't climbed 9b so maybe that is the physique that you need to reach that level. Matt has a good point about Olympic female marathon runners who would also fall into this category of being unhealthily underweight. Like I said, elite sporting performance doesn't necessarily equal healthy and outside of competitions you can't force people to be a healthy weight to perform at the top level of the sport. Looking at the 3 women who have climbed 9b at least 66.6% of them look unhealthily underweight. The sample size is obviously still too small to make any solid conclusions.   

Anyway, moving away from undereating etc 9b is a massive achievement and I think that would make it the first 9b in Austria and possibly the first 9b in any of the German speaking nations (please someone correct me if I am wrong). I didn't read anywhere though that she said it was 9b, just that it was her hardest first ascent. I think the media/over-caffeinated sugary drink company ran away with that and gave it 9b themselves. It will be interesting to see if it gets any attention from any of the other beasts living in the region. I know that at least one 9b aspirant round here bemoaned the fact that there wasn't a 9b close to home and one had to travel to Spain, but now there potentially is so it will be exciting to see if anyone gets involved. From what I have see AE has done at least 3 first ascents over the last year or so between 9a and 9b but as far as I know nobody has tried to repeat them yet so it would be cool if they go some attention as there is not shortage of people in the area with the capabilities! 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Anti on December 18, 2020, 09:21:18 am
This is an interesting discussion. Other than not fitting the box of what we think a woman should look like, what other metrics are we judging her health? She's clearly continuing to perform (second 9b now) without injury. She's hardly a punter (outperforming most men). In my limited experience of Mina's problems, she was getting injured, not performing as expected and to round it off wanted to start a family, so that was the ultimate wake up. Outside of our climbing bubble I'd wager even the larger guys in this forum probably look laughably thin to "normal" people. I know I get it all the time.

Elite athletes at their peak of performance always look crazy by standard metrics. If she was struggling to walk up to the crag or being carried away in a stretcher, but as previously indicated she's in a very select club of humans to have climbed the grade.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duma on December 18, 2020, 09:36:14 am
She didn't offer a grade (fair enough when you're 5'1") but said it was as hard as Planta de Shiva for her which is where the 9b came from i think.
Between her and LR I know which I'd have more concerns about weight wise, but there was no comment when LR did the ali hulk thing.
Didn't Megos have to get carried back from the crag once or was that a joke? Think he had ebikes at ceuse for the walk in.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fiend on December 18, 2020, 09:38:37 am
FWIW I highlighted Dmaccy looking like a ravening undead ghoul after his ascent of Practise Of The Wild or whatever Swiss "not as hard as Arisaig 8B" 8C he did. MoF looks like a complete freak too, but extreme running is just fucking weird anyway..
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 18, 2020, 09:49:28 am
I have to say I'm quite surprised by the lack of research being done considering all the conjecture here. Angy has been fairly open about having experienced eating disorders, specifically Anorexia Nervosa at a young age (https://www.angelaeiter.com/en/book-presentation-my-first-biography).

With this in mind it's worth considering that these disorders can permanently affect body composition and dietary function to a certain extent - an example would be a lady I know who no longer experiences hunger and simply eats at meal times or  when she starts to shake due to low blood sugar. Obviously it's inappropriate to assume anything about someone who you don't know and whose circumstances you don't understand - but I do think it's important to look at this in context.

My general opinion is that it's very hard to comment on whether some is properly fuelled simply based on body composition and that a real opinion can only be formed after viewing a food diary over several weeks and considering their activity level etc. Some people are simply just leaner.

I must confess I did feel uncomfortable watching the video. I also think it's also disingenious to suggest that 'she's got guns so it's fine' because a) the body will maintain muscle mass that is regularly loaded (maintaining movement over everything) and b) the leaner you are, the more visible your muscle structure is. She's also got a background of decades of elite sport, so it's unsurprising that the conditioning is visible. This isn't an indicator of health.

Many are comparing to the usual suspects i.e. Ste Mac but this is once again disingenious because men and women are not the same. If you compare to Shauna then the difference is striking.

I do however think it's good that these things are discussed rather than being simply accepted as 'the price of performance' or some similar nonsense.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Muenchener on December 18, 2020, 09:52:39 am
the first 9b in Austria and possibly the first 9b in any of the German speaking nations (please someone correct me if I am wrong).

One claimed by Pirmin Bertle in Switzerland but repeated & downgraded by Adam Ondra iirc
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Will Hunt on December 18, 2020, 09:57:13 am
If you compare to Shauna then the difference is striking.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, Mischa, but comparing against Shauna isn't exactly like for like. Shauna is more a boulderer than an endurance athlete.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 18, 2020, 10:02:01 am
If you compare to Shauna then the difference is striking.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, Mischa, but comparing against Shauna isn't exactly like for like. Shauna is more a boulderer than an endurance athlete.

That's a fair point - but then take Julia, Nina, Babsi. All (IIRC) 9th grade climbers and all far less lean. Nina and Babsi also closer in terms of age.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: abarro81 on December 18, 2020, 10:08:59 am
Matt has a good point about Olympic female marathon runners who would also fall into this category of being unhealthily underweight. Like I said, elite sporting performance doesn't necessarily equal healthy and outside of competitions you can't force people to be a healthy weight to perform at the top level of the sport.

Yeah, to clarify my posts I'm definitely not saying she "shouldn't" look like that, or that it's bad for her climbing, or that anyone other than her should make a choice about how she chooses to be. As others have said, adults can make their own decisions around these things, and none of us know her health (although as an aside, "society" does ban some things, e.g. PEDs, partly to protect high-performing athletes from themselves).

I mostly just wanted to point out that the "I bet she cycles in and out of super-thin mode" folks were almost certainly wrong. Also that - as teestub pointed out - the comparisons to men miss a key factor.

It's also entirely plausible that she looks unhealthily thin but that her body is unusually resilient to being light, and things like her hormonal system are actually totally fine at that weight. This could also be true for elites in other sports - e.g. the v thin marathon runners. Maybe the fine line between olympic gold and crashing out with REDs and multiple stress fractures in some of these sports is the genetic luck around what BF% things like your endocrine system can cope with before they shut down? But, as Doylo implied, if I had a daughter or were a coach to young athletes, there's no way I'd want to show them vids of her doing well. Her body might cope with that, but most peoples' won't, and that's not the easiest thing to articulate to impressionable youngsters
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: tomtom on December 18, 2020, 10:28:28 am
Great post Mischa.

I shared an office with a man with anorexia for a few months as a PhD student. He died from it shortly after. I can't really begin to understand what happens - other than its really is so much more than simply not eating.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fultonius on December 18, 2020, 10:30:50 am
I think Alex' last statement nails it really.

I think it's a good development that we're starting to question the "do what it takes" mentality, especially for women. Top end female athletes, due to the power:weight ratio required in climbing are often going to be treading the thin line between light and unhealthy. We, as bystanders/onlookers can perhaps comment that someone looks like they are potentially on the unhealthy side, but short of being able to ask directly "how is your period" and getting bone density test done, we'll never know.

Edit: I know lots of folk on here know Mina well, so I'll tread carefully but I don't believe at any point during her worst time she ever looked particularly unhealthily thin? I guess my point is that the indicators of health are more complex and less outwardly obvious than just how ripped and veiny someone looks? I would agree with most (and my other half when she saw the video did too) that AE does look "unhealthy" and, Pete, given the number of "craggy high altitude super fit" types I used to mix with in Chamonix, I think that backstory doesn't even start to explain it. But the point is, if she "is" unhealthy someone should be looking out for her.

However, in our own circles we may know, especially younger, girls/women who are pushing in the sport and I think it's vital that we/they understand that serious damage can be done, and that maintaining hormonal health is vital. Coaches, fiends, partners. Too many old guys on this forum to fix these things though!!!

I guess there is an analogy to be made with modelling?  Some countries have banned excessively thin models being able to go on stage. Cannot imagine how that could be done in practice, but I guess a start would be the likes of over-caffeinated sugary drink company properly looking after their athletes...but then that would mean banning their own unhealthy sugary caffeine drink so that's not going to happen.....

Of course, men can also do damage to themselves, but it's much, much harder. (Or so current thinking says...)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 18, 2020, 10:30:59 am
@TT
Cognition is altered in very specific ways under 50% BW, but is seriously impacted before that too.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Aussiegav on December 18, 2020, 10:42:19 am
@TT
Cognition is altered in very specific ways under 50% BW, but is seriously impacted before that too.
Spot on!!

The physical ill health is a longer term product of mental ill health when talking about body dysmorphia & eating disorders.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: tomtom on December 18, 2020, 10:48:19 am
@TT
Cognition is altered in very specific ways under 50% BW, but is seriously impacted before that too.
Spot on!!

The physical ill health is a longer term product of mental ill health when talking about body dysmorphia & eating disorders.

Yes - thats what I was inferring.. (badly)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 18, 2020, 11:14:39 am
Something that frustrates me is people referring to the 'necessary power-weight ratio' without seeming to realise that this is incredibly non-specific and unscientific.

It consistently blows my mind that so many climbers fail to understand that it's perfectly possible to get heavier and improve your power to weight ratio. The same climbers then complain that they don't make strength gains from training whilst ignoring the fact that they spend most of the year eating too little in order to stay 1-2kg lighter.

These same climbers again then like to tell other climbers about how they would be so much stronger if they got leaner. I'm sad to say I've spent all 7 years of my time in the climbing community experiencing this kind of criticism. When confronted about this behaviour they get very defensive and say 'it's part of the sport'.

It's actually really fucking annoying to be honest.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Anti on December 18, 2020, 11:21:39 am
Something that frustrates me is people referring to the 'necessary power-weight ratio' without seeming to realise that this is incredibly non-specific and unscientific.

It consistently blows my mind that so many climbers fail to understand that it's perfectly possible to get heavier and improve your power to weight ratio. The same climbers then complain that they don't make strength gains from training whilst ignoring the fact that they spend most of the year eating too little in order to stay 1-2kg lighter.

These same climbers again then like to tell other climbers about how they would be so much stronger if they got leaner. I'm sad to say I've spent all 7 years of my time in the climbing community experiencing this kind of criticism. When confronted about this behaviour they get very defensive and say 'it's part of the sport'.

It's actually really fucking annoying to be honest.

There are some climbers who have excess body fat and would do absolutely no harm in losing it. There's a difference if you're already >15% BF then it's a waste of time outside of peak performance, but we're not powerlifters here, you don't need to be bulking to add 2kg to your max hangs.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 18, 2020, 11:22:32 am
I think Alex' last statement nails it really.

I think it's a good development that we're starting to question the "do what it takes" mentality, especially for women. Top end female athletes, due to the power:weight ratio required in climbing are often going to be treading the thin line between light and unhealthy. We, as bystanders/onlookers can perhaps comment that someone looks like they are potentially on the unhealthy side, but short of being able to ask directly "how is your period" and getting bone density test done, we'll never know.

Edit: I know lots of folk on here know Mina well, so I'll tread carefully but I don't believe at any point during her worst time she ever looked particularly unhealthily thin? I guess my point is that the indicators of health are more complex and less outwardly obvious than just how ripped and veiny someone looks? I would agree with most (and my other half when she saw the video did too) that AE does look "unhealthy" and, Pete, given the number of "craggy high altitude super fit" types I used to mix with in Chamonix, I think that backstory doesn't even start to explain it. But the point is, if she "is" unhealthy someone should be looking out for her.

However, in our own circles we may know, especially younger, girls/women who are pushing in the sport and I think it's vital that we/they understand that serious damage can be done, and that maintaining hormonal health is vital. Coaches, fiends, partners. Too many old guys on this forum to fix these things though!!!

I guess there is an analogy to be made with modelling?  Some countries have banned excessively thin models being able to go on stage. Cannot imagine how that could be done in practice, but I guess a start would be the likes of over-caffeinated sugary drink company properly looking after their athletes...but then that would mean banning their own unhealthy sugary caffeine drink so that's not going to happen.....

Of course, men can also do damage to themselves, but it's much, much harder. (Or so current thinking says...)

I don’t know Mina.

But I know many young and teenage girls, with a variety of issues and eating disorders, through working with a local “residential ” school (read: sectioned) and in particular two girls in our youth squad, who both came to us with the issues and over the last five years we’ve got close with them or their families.
One is almost certainly my daughter’s girlfriend, I don’t ask (my eldest describes herself as “Pan” and has dated boys and girls over the last two years). They certainly spend a lot of time together and the girl in question has certainly “improved” dramatically since being put back a year into my daughter’s year (16 to my daughter’s 15).
Anyway, girl “A” is a driven gymnast, swimmer and climber. However she’s been hospitalised twice since age13 through eating issues. Each of those episodes was precipitated by vocal criticism by people (kids) unaware of the underlying realities.
So, possibly, I’m vicariously sensitive to the idea of publicly speculating on the health of anybody.
My late wife, had been a (Romanian) gymnast in her teens and things in that world were pretty harsh, particularly in Eastern Europe. She was pushed into eating disorder territory by rape at 17, compounding existing self image issues. By the time we met, she was 24, had quit gymnastics, was healthy and had learned how to focus the drive she’d had for gymnastics into what ever she wanted, without killing herself in the process. When we met, she couldn’t swim. Within a year, she had her Open Water diver cert. When we married two years after meeting, she was diving Trimix and was an accomplished underwater photographer
How much her early experience contributed to her cancer, was discussed by th e oncologist, but it’s impossible to draw any conclusions.

I guess I’m just uncomfortable with the “strangers on the internet” discussing this, as opposed to frank discussion amongst friends and family.
At least, where we are referring to specific people by name.
 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 18, 2020, 11:46:44 am

I guess I’m just uncomfortable with the “strangers on the internet” discussing this, as opposed to frank discussion amongst friends and family.
At least, where we are referring to specific people by name.

Yes, I share this feeling too. Equally, maybe its better to openly discuss it than not to? Increases awareness of the issues in a way that simply won't happen if there is a culture of silence. I know I was shamefully ignorant of eating disorders and their impact on people until my early twenties.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Duma on December 18, 2020, 11:56:03 am
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.
AE is an adult though, and has been open about her issues in her book, so perhaps is less vulnerable  than some others.
Shes also been at the very top of her sport for 16years!
Comparisons with Nina or Shauna are pointless - one is nowhere near the same level sport climbing, and the other is a power athlete.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: turnipturned on December 18, 2020, 12:58:55 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 18, 2020, 01:30:59 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.
AE is an adult though, and has been open about her issues in her book, so perhaps is less vulnerable  than some others.
Shes also been at the very top of her sport for 16years!
Comparisons with Nina or Shauna are pointless - one is nowhere near the same level sport climbing, and the other is a power athlete.

Possibly I was undermining my position by making that comparison. I think one reason the waters are so murky here is because we're discussing such an elite group of people and it's therefore challenging to draw wider comparisons.

I do however believe it's very possible to have respectful discussions about difficult topics if people are considerate and willing to put aside rhetoric. Discussion is a crucial (if sometimes uncomfortable) component of an evidence based approach to sporting ethics and I certainly don't think these topics should be swept under the rug.

Whilst I do agree with your point that AE is an adult and thereby autonomous (EDIT: just realised this was someone else who posted this comment), I do also think it's important to remember that adults can be vulnerable too. From what I've seen, the majority of the comments on this thread have been made from a position of care/concern - I have to say I don't see why 'middle aged men' (I don't fall into this group) shouldn't be allowed to express their thoughts on the matter, as long as it remains considered as mentioned above.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 18, 2020, 01:35:23 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Anti on December 18, 2020, 01:53:58 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.

Weight is an issue in many male sports, especially in climbing and cycling. It's just less normal to talk about it. Males are famously bad at discussing mental health issues (see male suicide rates). Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 18, 2020, 02:02:24 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.


The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.

I dont think anyone is dictating what she should look like, its entirely up to her but we are free to discuss our thoughts on what might be an unhealthy trend in climbing, man or women.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: webbo on December 18, 2020, 02:07:08 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.

Weight is an issue in many male sports, especially in climbing and cycling. It's just less normal to talk about it. Males are famously bad at discussing mental health issues (see male suicide rates). Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.
If Dave Graham or Daniel Woods turned up for an appointment at their local mental health clinic, their weight wouldn’t be the first thing that would checked. However if Angela Eiter attended I’m pretty sure even the receptionist would be alerting someone.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Anti on December 18, 2020, 02:09:40 pm
Def also uncomfortable as you've said, especially here on a space dominated by middle aged men.

Agree! Not only is it uncomfortable, it's a bit flipping weird.

Surely this is a key reason this stuff has been brushed under the carpet before. This kind of stuff is always an uncomfortable conversation but i think a valid one. Its not as if this issue doesnt exist in our sport.

She looks very thin and not very healthy and i believe that if this is what it takes to get to the levels she is operating at thats fine but it needs to be discussed. Being an elite athlete is all about sacrifice isnt it.

This is a site full of mostly 30+ men so makes it a bit odder but the weight issue dosnt seem to be as bigger problem in male sport despite it being just as big an influence on performance. It does appear to be an issue in womens sport though, climbing, cycling, gymnastics, swimming etc so needs to be discussed and it appears many women are now doing so.

If it was a film of a very thin, not very healthy looking man, i would like to think the conversation would be the same.


The difficult part of this discussion is men dictating what a healthy woman should look like. By all non-superficial metrics she seems to be reasonably fit an healthy in the performance athlete sphere.

I dont think anyone is dictating what she should look like, its entirely up to her but we are free to discuss our thoughts on what might be an unhealthy trend in climbing, man or women.

But my point is we have no reason to call her unhealthy outside of her not looking the way we think we should.

Maybe I'm missing your point but by all the general metrics of health in the realms we should care about (performance) she's ticking the boxes. Usually REDs or otherwise would present itself in the traditional ways, lack of performance, frequently ill or injured, sleep/recovery problems etc. Presumably if she's able to maintain at this level she's hardly slipping backwards in terms of recovery; so we're back to her not "looking" the way we want.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: webbo on December 18, 2020, 02:17:39 pm
I have known people consuming 500 calories a day and managing to exercise more than the average person in the street. Ok they might not have been redpointing 9B but it’s surprising what the body can do. The main issue is the continued malnutrition leads to catastrophic organ failure for some people.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: remus on December 18, 2020, 02:24:29 pm
Whenever people post up videos of Dave Graham or Daniel Woods etc, there's no huge debate about how skinny they look, yet if you stood them next to an average male they look like they'd snap in half.

I agree with your point, but they're going to look skinny compared to the average because the average person in the UK is overweight (as measured by average BMI (~27.5 in the UK and 26.5 in the US)).
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: abarro81 on December 18, 2020, 02:45:04 pm
But my point is we have no reason to call her unhealthy outside of her not looking the way we think we should.

I don't think people are saying that she is unhealthy, merely speculating that they think she may be unhealthy. In most cases it's likely to be based off an internal calculation of "would most women at that weight/build/BF% be healthy?"* and concluding "I don't think so". Going back to my previous point - she may be healthy at that weight/build/BF%, because e.g. she may have a body with an unusual resilience, but my very-much-non-expert assessment is that most women would not be. Hence it's not surprising for people to think she looks thin enough to be at risk of being unhealthy - I'd argue it's more a reflection of a statistical guess than a reflection of any kind of socially established aesthetic ideal/norm as you imply.

On a side-note, I know my performance has historically been best at what are probably unhealthy weights (more getting ill etc.).  While there are long-term performance issues for many people, it's not unfeasible that certain aspects of climbing could fit in a box where performance and health are not synonymous, so I'm not sure that the logic that performance proves health is very useful, especially when thinking about a scenario where a "suboptimal" route in this regard may have been taken earlier in someone's life. This is even more true if, as I said earlier, for a few individuals you can get really light without causing yourself problems, but to a point where everyone else would have imploded. So light may be right for a few people, but most people will cause themselves issues if they go down that road. Hence they may be healthy whilst looking very unhealthy... but it's unsurprising if people think that they look unhealthy, because our brain is just doing a quick guess based on some fudged conception of stats around this.

On a second side-note, when people have wondered about this stuff in the past, it's often later been that they were right about there being an issue (e.g. SDG)

*possible people think "would most women be able to be at that weight/composition without issues", rather than "would most women who are that weight/composition have issues" which are clearly slightly different
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: IanP on December 18, 2020, 03:08:57 pm
I’ve followed this thread and wasn’t sure I wanted to get involved – I’ve no real expertise in this area but have had close personal contact with a couple of cases of eating disorders in young sports women.  There’s lots here to think about / comment on so below are just a few thoughts.

- Re Angy Eiter, I agree how she looks worrying to my eye’s but we should all try to be aware that this an individual person who’s situation we don’t know and try show respect and empathy on anything posted. 

- I think it’s becoming clear that eating disorders are a significant (and almost certainly underestimated) issue in power to weight based sports and while girls and young women are often emphasised in these discussions (and there may be links to other societal pressures here as well) it is by no means limited to these groups.  For example, Colin Jackson, Freddie Flintoff (thought his documentary was a hard but honest and positive watch), Kai Lightner.

- Eating disorders and associated low body fat can have significant health risks for women in a different way to men as noted by others here, and in particular the sort of body fat levels that might be acceptable for a male athlete could be seriously risky for women.   However I’m sure anyone who has experience of eating disorders would understand that the mental health and life impacts can be very significant outside of the pure physical effects.

- More open discussion about both eating disorders and disordered eating and its impact on individual in sport (and outside) is generally a good thing I feel.  While some on here have noted there is some awkwardness around a load of middle aged blokes discussing this in the context of young women, I think a lot of the discussion has been pretty decent quality and feel I would rather see it openly talked about in a (mostly) constructive and empathetic way.

- On the overall discussion about health body composition / weight vs performance I feel there are some really positive role model around top female climbers at the moment.  Certainly, looking at the recent European champs it seems that there is maybe a move away from the extremely low body fat / weight look.  Julia Chanourdie, who is arguably one of the very top outdoor sport climbers, looks pretty different to the very thin route climber archetype that still at times prevails.

- From my personal experience both people are doing much better and both have found that eating more normally and gaining some weight has led to improved sporting performance, (one at keen amateur level, one at near elite) alongside general improved well-being.   
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Bradders on December 18, 2020, 04:49:03 pm
But, as Doylo implied, if I had a daughter or were a coach to young athletes, there's no way I'd want to show them vids of her doing well. Her body might cope with that, but most peoples' won't, and that's not the easiest thing to articulate to impressionable youngsters

Completely agree with this.

Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I really would hope that the answer is no. Unfortunately, there are so few people operating at this level that it's hard to draw clear conclusions. And doubly unfortunate that of the three women to have climbed 9b, two at least look to the untrained eye as if they are treading very close to the line.

A further question then is, given the relative lack of available role models, is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices without at least acknowledging it? Or making it clear to other aspiring climbers that there are risks involved in taking this approach? I mean, they probably couldn't care less, but still the question should be asked. 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Will Hunt on December 18, 2020, 05:11:34 pm
is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices

This is rather critical to their business model.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: AMorris on December 18, 2020, 05:21:15 pm
Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I think with this in mind, it might be a good idea to split the thread. The above discussion has gone on longer than the discussion about the achievement itself. In a thread detailing the achievements of Angie, I could absolutely see how this could be a bad look for these forums. In this age of social media, this discussion could so easily be taken out of context and turn into "group of middle aged men ignore achievement of top female athlete to criticise how she looks", despite there being nothing but good intention here.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: IanP on December 18, 2020, 05:26:26 pm
But, as Doylo implied, if I had a daughter or were a coach to young athletes, there's no way I'd want to show them vids of her doing well. Her body might cope with that, but most peoples' won't, and that's not the easiest thing to articulate to impressionable youngsters

Completely agree with this.

Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I really would hope that the answer is no. Unfortunately, there are so few people operating at this level that it's hard to draw clear conclusions. And doubly unfortunate that of the three women to have climbed 9b, two at least look to the untrained eye as if they are treading very close to the line.

A further question then is, given the relative lack of available role models, is it responsible for over-caffeinated sugary drink company to promote potentially unhealthy practices without at least acknowledging it? Or making it clear to other aspiring climbers that there are risks involved in taking this approach? I mean, they probably couldn't care less, but still the question should be asked.

I agree to some extent, but would also like to see the argument approached from the potential of some more positive roles models as well.  It doesn't seem clear that really low body fat is definitely the best approach for hard climbing (particularly for women) - Julia C, Anak Verhoven, Janja Ganbret etc appear to have a different approach to body composition and are obviously top performers at a world level.  1 out 2 9b climbers ( or 2 out of 3 if we include shitty sit starts in caves) isn't a big sample.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 18, 2020, 05:35:15 pm
Although the discussion has been sparked by Angy Eiter, and clearly we can only speculate whilst hoping that if she is unhealthy that she has people looking out for her, the wider question is; is it necessary to cut your weight down to a potentially / probably unhealthy level in order to perform at this level in climbing?

I think with this in mind, it might be a good idea to split the thread. The above discussion has gone on longer than the discussion about the achievement itself. In a thread detailing the achievements of Angie, I could absolutely see how this could be a bad look for these forums. In this age of social media, this discussion could so easily be taken out of context and turn into "group of middle aged men ignore achievement of top female athlete to criticise how she looks", despite there being nothing but good intention here.

That which I was trying not to say.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: tomtom on December 18, 2020, 07:01:51 pm
Let’s see what shark comes up with for a new thread name......
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Doylo on December 18, 2020, 07:28:05 pm
Let’s see what shark comes up with for a new thread name......

What about ‘Sugary drinks company sponsors super skinny climbers in clever marketing ploy’ . Could also be the title of a Epic Tv vid - get in touch for the rights.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Fatboyslimfast2 on December 19, 2020, 08:14:49 am
Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool. Having come through the first wave of sport climbing in the mid 80's as always a larger bloke compared to everyone else I can see now I went into some very dangerous behaviour in my late teens and early 20's. One of the uk superstars has admitted in his book to living on sub 1200 calories a day at this time. It was rife, not eating was the thing. I was lucky and that behaviour didnt  stick as I got older.
I knew at least 4 male climbers who had pretty  bad eating disorders at that time, one of whom it more than probably led to his death at 50.  At the time the reaction to John Dunne was more than based upon his body size compared to the other elite. I remember talking to several top climbers in Sheff whos reaction was along the lines of no way hes done that hes way to big(I paraphrase here, it was more succinct) If you look back now at JD in his prime he looks fine.
What Im trying to say is that its always been there, I saw an old bouldering mate recently and the first thing he mentions was Id put on weight....
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: remus on December 19, 2020, 09:11:18 am
Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool.

Personally I think this is an unfair characterisation (based on what I've seen on their various yt channels etc anyway). Dave M in particular always seems to preface anything he says with "I just like discussing nutrition and experimenting with different strategies for myself", to the point it's actually quite annoying!

I think it's important to be able to discuss nutrition in a balanced way, out in the public eye, as otherwise it becomes taboo which makes it harder again to raise it with someone where you think there may be an issue.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Liamhutch89 on December 19, 2020, 10:10:55 am
There must be some truth to certain individuals handling calorie restriction better than others. E.g. I am not one of those people - my power falls off a cliff if I go below c.3000 kcals per day! Performing on sub-1,200 seems outrageous to me, but it obviously works for some.

Either way, calorie restriction at a level which still allows for high-level performance is probably no more unhealthy than the average person in the UK who overeats.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 19, 2020, 10:26:50 am
There must be some truth to certain individuals handling calorie restriction better than others. E.g. I am not one of those people - my power falls off a cliff if I go below c.3000 kcals per day! Performing on sub-1,200 seems outrageous to me, but it obviously works for some.

Either way, calorie restriction at a level which still allows for high-level performance is probably no more unhealthy than the average person in the UK who overeats.

If I drop to 1900/2000 a day, I shed around 700/750g a week.
Dieting (or, at least, losing weight) is not an issue or hardship for me.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 19, 2020, 10:28:15 am
Calorific needs vary widely between people. Liam, haven’t you posted about shifting some heavy weights I think? Muscle is metabolic tissue, you need to fuel its energy consumption.

High level performance/calorie restriction... well how long for? A permanently sustainable level? That’s healthy eating, surely? Short term gain- that’s not.

Seems like this could do with being its own thread. Really good topic to discuss sensibly, but not good at all IMO that celebrating the hardest female ascent ever has become a thread about dieting. Don’t read too many female voices here either.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 19, 2020, 10:49:26 am
Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec (https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Bradders on December 19, 2020, 11:06:51 am
I don't think anyone is undermining the Angy's achievement at all, in fact everything posted here has been very thoughtful and caring i think, but it is uncomfortable still.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: webbo on December 19, 2020, 11:30:06 am
Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec (https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec)
According to my heart rate monitor which I know is a blunt tool. I will burn off more calories on a three hour road ride, roughly 500 to 600 an hour. Matt you need to acknowledge you are middle-aged and get a bike. :lol:
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 19, 2020, 11:46:45 am
Yes.

Thread split would be good.

Quite a way back? So it seems less “undermining” of AE’s rather impressive achievements?

Anyway, I can recommend one single activity for shedding weight, without changing  your dietary intake a jot (sorry, insta post for simplicity).
Stick 15-20kg in a Bergan and find some steepish hills:

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec (https://www.instagram.com/p/CGw4HIVjyf1/?igshid=v4524d3l06ec)
According to my heart rate monitor which I know is a blunt tool. I will burn off more calories on a three hour road ride, roughly 500 to 600 an hour. Matt you need to acknowledge you are middle-aged and get a bike. :lol:

Do you have any concept of how dangerous that shit is?

Safer to go blindfold wingsuit jumping, in a hurricane, without a chute.

A gentle jog trot in beautiful scenery with a little “safety gear” on your back and you hardly even know you’re exercising.
 
Anyway, road bikes are for sissies, I prefer trashing my Kona, knees, elbows, face and spine into trees, boulders, roots and unexpectedly low branches...
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2020, 12:46:25 pm
I don't think anyone is undermining the Angy's achievement at all, in fact everything posted here has been very thoughtful and caring i think, but it is uncomfortable still.

I agree, no one person is. However it is worth pointing out that this one discussion now takes up twice as much space as the entire conversation about Angies achievements since she became the first woman to climb 9b. No one person is undermining her achievements, but I think the entire discussion is.

It’s a topic that warrants a thread of it’s own, since as you say, it makes for uncomfortable reading here. 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Danny on December 20, 2020, 12:53:08 am
Spot on AMorris. Think of all the imaciated men doing top end stuff on the reg. Plenty of opportunities to discuss disordered eating. And yet as soon as it's a woman we're instantly 5 pages deep in opinions. I recall the same thing happened with Puccio on here a while back. Step back from the individual contributions--which are all fine--and it's not OK. IMO.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Davo on December 20, 2020, 07:17:32 am
Personally having read all the thread I don’t think being a woman is the important issue being discussed (although it clearly impacts women’s health more seriously than men’s in general- I am aware there are exceptions). Most of the comments and discussion has been pretty fair and open and only a couple of bits about her general looks have made me feel uncomfortable.

I basically agree with abarro’s comments earlier on and think that even if her weight and body mass index is not an issue for her (I think this unlikely) it certainly would be for most women and if I had a daughter (I have a young son) I would not be keen for her to see that video without a long discussion about the dangers of extreme weight loss.

I would feel the same if I saw a video of top end male climber looking the same way.

I think splitting the thread is a good idea

Dave
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: gme on December 20, 2020, 11:41:16 am
Spot on AMorris. Think of all the imaciated men doing top end stuff on the reg. Plenty of opportunities to discuss disordered eating. And yet as soon as it's a woman we're instantly 5 pages deep in opinions. I recall the same thing happened with Puccio on here a while back. Step back from the individual contributions--which are all fine--and it's not OK. IMO.

Show some photos of men that look emaciated and I will comment on that as well.
And if Puccio hasn’t got a problem she presents an image that causes one, as do many of the insta generation both male and female. Is it possible to maintain such low levels of body fat healthily?  I don’t see much science saying you can.

This has nothing to do with it being women and everything to do with some honesty about what you need to do to get as cut as that and the potential side effects it has. You can then make an educated decision as to whether you think it’s worth the risk.

It’s open discussion and honesty we need.

Elite sport has now developed to such a level where it is starting to be unhealthy and those involved are having long term problems once there “careers” are over. Look at Rugby at the minute. My youngest plays at a reasonable level and has no intention of stopping despite all of the reports on the long term damage it might be doing to his brain, but the important thing is he knows what the risks are and what the long term outcomes might be. He can then make his own decision about if those risks are worth it.

This is what is needed with the weight issue I feel exists in climbing.


 
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 20, 2020, 12:10:11 pm
I would not disagree with that but would question whether a thread to celebrate AE’s incredible achievement is the best place for it.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 22, 2020, 03:46:22 pm
Did anyone point out that the video is dull as shit yet? I fast forwarded to the action and was sorely disappointed. I’d be surprised if anyone stuck it out long enough to be inspired to lose weight. Hardly heroin chic on the catwalk
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 22, 2020, 09:07:07 pm
Its interesting at the moment to see DaveM  and Grecian promoting weight loss as an athletic gains tool.

Personally I think this is an unfair characterisation (based on what I've seen on their various yt channels etc anyway). Dave M in particular always seems to preface anything he says with "I just like discussing nutrition and experimenting with different strategies for myself", to the point it's actually quite annoying!

I think it's important to be able to discuss nutrition in a balanced way, out in the public eye, as otherwise it becomes taboo which makes it harder again to raise it with someone where you think there may be an issue.

Dave Mac keeps himself relevant with the skull head look. Saying that the meat n eggs diet doesn’t seem to have caught on. I do think he had a point re brain function as I think it’s shown benefits in helping conditions like epilepsy
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 23, 2020, 09:16:11 am

Dave Mac keeps himself relevant with the skull head look. Saying that the meat n eggs diet doesn’t seem to have caught on. I do think he had a point re brain function as I think it’s shown benefits in helping conditions like epilepsy

I think Dave mostly just wants an evidence based and open discussion on athletic nutrition including what can work for genetic outliers such as himself who apparently have a microbiome which is divergent when compared to the genpop.

I've also struggled with significant dietary problems and anxiety/depressive episodes in tandem, and have had similar experiences that a significant shake up of the standard dietary advice is required to shift these symptoms - although it must be said the new wave of information I've been seeing communicated recently is much more in the line of 'find what works' with as broad a diet as possible whilst remaining minimally symptomatic.

He's well educated on the subject by now so I can only assume he knows where his 'healthy limit' is and skirts as close to it as he feels comfortable doing. The one thing that we can say is that he is certainly willing to put the work/time in to make sure that his approaches are as evidence based as reasonably possible which is something to be respected IMO.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 23, 2020, 02:36:14 pm
What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: Will Hunt on December 23, 2020, 03:06:49 pm
What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?

Soon, Dan, anybody who hasn't attended a Lattice Gene Lab will be genetic outliers. Everyone else will have bought the Ondra Neck package, the two-for-one on Aidan's Fingers, and be taking the Dunning Growth Hormone. I think there's some mileage in a partial lobotomy that will enable those of us with non-mechanical attention spans to actually use our fingerboards.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: SA Chris on December 23, 2020, 03:29:46 pm
or a full lobotomy to believe Dan's ramblings :)
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 23, 2020, 03:32:04 pm
Just wanted to know what makes Dmac a genetic outlier ffs
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: MischaHY on December 23, 2020, 03:44:19 pm
What’s a genetic outlier and how is DMac one?

Well, if we take an example from statistical analysis, an outlier is a data point which is very different from other data points, making it hard to include in the data set due to being so different from the rest.

Dave has talked a lot about depressive symptoms and other negative effects brought on by certain common elements of nutrition, which he claims go away when he excludes them from his diet. Whilst I'm not an expert, I think it's fair to say this is quite unusual when compared against the general population.

I used genetic because pre-existing conditions like this tend to be something that's inherited - for example, my family has a history of IBS. However, I suppose it could be environmentally influenced so perhaps it's better to simply say outlier.

I'm not trying to say there's anything particularly compelling or important about what Dave says or experiences - but in fairness it was you who brought up the specifics of his dietary experimentation  :whistle:

Apologies if I'm missing something here but I tend to take questions face-on.
Title: Re: Angela Eiter becomes the first woman to climb 9b
Post by: A.Greenhorne on December 23, 2020, 03:59:39 pm
Cheers, no it was a genuine question.
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