UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: cheque on December 22, 2021, 04:01:24 pm
-
There must be another dimension where I didn’t stall out on making my Peak bouldering development film and now have loads of great footage for it. :'(
NOTE: Some of the best things have been up at Grinah Stone where we did some cracking stuff which probably hasn’t been done before as they required cleaning by abseil. I’d love to be able to share these and to encourage more traffic, but I’ll stick by the agreed no documentation thing. FWIW I think this rule is well past it’s use by date. There are so many hurdles to put people off going to this place that even people ‘in the know’ rarely actually make it up. I really think the place would still be extremely quiet if written up, people would just get more and better climbing done when they were there. If anyone wants info on stuff I know about up there by all means PM me.
I was blown away when I went up there both by the sheer amount of rock and by how much of it is in the “Jesus, look at that!” category.
-
[author=Bonjoy link=topic=31666.msg651296#msg651296 date=1640172304]
NOTE: Some of the best things have been up at Grinah Stone where we did some cracking stuff which probably hasn’t been done before as they required cleaning by abseil. I’d love to be able to share these and to encourage more traffic, but I’ll stick by the agreed no documentation thing. FWIW I think this rule is well past it’s use by date. There are so many hurdles to put people off going to this place that even people ‘in the know’ rarely actually make it up. I really think the place would still be extremely quiet if written up, people would just get more and better climbing done when they were there. If anyone wants info on stuff I know about up there by all means PM me.
I'm not sure of the rationale for the original decision not to publish, but (as you say) if it was ro reduce traffic it does seems overkill. However it is a special and unique experience to visit a venue as good as this and have to explore and make the problems up yourself, and then leave with no ticks or grades, just memories. It can leave your ego a little adrift and I think that that perhaps is more valuable now than ever as bouldering gets ever more goal oriented and acquisitive. Of course that effect will be strongest on a first visit, and be much reduced if you have an initiate to show you round, but my first visit was a very memorable experience that I hadn't anticipated, and gave me pause to question my usual motivations. So I think given we've got this far, it might be worth continuing. Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?
There might be a third way which is to publish some photos in the guide showing the breadth and depth, alongside some vague navel gazing text explanation (or even a poem if we really wanted to annoy people).
Edit: neither of the Kinder Guides suggest the venue is left undescribed to protect it from popularity, in fact both actively promote it as being great, so I suspect the reasoning is more along the lines of the above.
PS that long thing was never 7A+!
-
Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?
I would have thought that would put it well up your street ;)
-
Im with JB on the Grinah stones thing (though I've not actually been...)
The peak is pretty well documented so having a spot (and a good one at that by the looks of it) where you're forced to explore is a relatively unique experience.
-
That sounds great to me JB!
-
I'm not sure of the rationale for the original decision not to publish, but (as you say) if it was ro reduce traffic it does seems overkill. However it is a special and unique experience to visit a venue as good as this and have to explore and make the problems up yourself, and then leave with no ticks or grades, just memories. It can leave your ego a little adrift and I think that that perhaps is more valuable now than ever as bouldering gets ever more goal oriented and acquisitive. Of course that effect will be strongest on a first visit, and be much reduced if you have an initiate to show you round, but my first visit was a very memorable experience that I hadn't anticipated, and gave me pause to question my usual motivations. So I think given we've got this far, it might be worth continuing. Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?
There might be a third way which is to publish some photos in the guide showing the breadth and depth, alongside some vague navel gazing text explanation (or even a poem if we really wanted to annoy people).
Edit: neither of the Kinder Guides suggest the venue is left undescribed to protect it from popularity, in fact both actively promote it as being great, so I suspect the reasoning is more along the lines of the above.
PS that long thing was never 7A+!
Avoiding overuse is a rationale I have heard used. I agree it's not the most persuasive one. Worth shooting down prior to any real debate for that reason.
Your preserved mystery proposition is more valid, sadly in practice it just means the opportunity for an experience is preserved for a mass of climbers who in the main never take it up. In the meantime the long term enjoyment of the place is compromised for people with a genuine and lasting enthusiasm for the place. In the 20 years I've been going there the surface of the climbing remains little more than scratched. It's a shame.
I've been visiting and climbing there for many years and find that nobody else visits more than once or twice. I think I can safely claim I don't need the lure of FAs to get myself there, but it certainly looks like other people need a bit of extra info to encourage them.
I also favour a middle ground, which would remove the retro scramble. Problems get recorded offline w/wo names, but no FA details. People get the info if they want it, or don't if they don't.
In the absence of that then at least some sort of 'taster' topo detailing some lines and some obvious remaining challenges.
-
That sounds great to me JB!
Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.
-
That sounds great to me JB!
Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.
This is the sort of thought experiment I went for and it sounds really interesting. I assume when you take people there you say like ‘that prow is an amazing low 7’ or whatever? That sort of communication would just be natural, but I like the idea that other people can have a different experience.
What do you personally think you are missing out on by not being able to record problems? Is it just having other people to develop things for you to try? It sounds like a great set up for a FAist.
-
I think the protection issue has been conflated with the Woolpacks, which is both very fragile and highly valued by non-climbers, and hence should never have been included in a guide.
I did give some sort of halfway house write up thought but figured it would just morph into another full write up sooner or later. I think the nub of it is to negate the ticking mentality. If that makes it even quieter, so be it. The write up in Over the Moors is worth revisiting if like me you'd forgotten it. Worth remembering this has been done to death on the forum previously too.
Can you expand on how your enjoyment is compromised? Not sure I follow...
That sounds great to me JB!
Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.
That is a bit of an exaggeration (unless you are ignoring routes at the above?) and the walk in is not that dissimilar. But there are plenty such venues in Yorkshire and further north. I think a big part of Grinah's value lies in its wild nature despite being slap bang between Sheffield and Manchester.
More importantly Johnny Brown, can you think of a name for the Cracliffe thing/s? 7b for Samantha Muesli?
Gnomic aphorisms?
-
Worth remembering this has been done to death on the forum previously too.
OTOH I do think it is reasonable to revisit. Maybe worth a thread split as BJs new stuff is worth more than three pages of mild moral dilemmas.
The way we pass info on has changed since the ethic was established. Gatekeeping on this info via guidebook writers (as mentioned in Over the Moors) is not a realistic way to keep thinds under wraps any more. And I'm probably not the only one to be surprised by the sudden popularity and instant scene around developments like Bradley edge. But I don't think that sort of buzz will ever happen around Grinah, boulderers just don't like bogtrotting. Lord's seat is a reasonable comparison but the walk in is straightforward. Whereas Grinah has no decent path and too many poor approach options with the shortest unavailable at weekends. Plus surrounded by very good venues of very easy access. For me it would be a bit of a sad indictment of modern climbing if available ticks did suddenly make it popular.
I guess the other thing to bear in mind is you can't go back. Once the info is out it's just another venue. As so often with conservation, the battle is never over because no sooner have you won the argument once another developer pops up. I do think it's special and unique and that's not something to be binned off lightly.
-
That is a bit of an exaggeration (unless you are ignoring routes at the above?) and the walk in is not that dissimilar. But there are plenty such venues in Yorkshire and further north. I think a big part of Grinah's value lies in its wild nature despite being slap bang between Sheffield and Manchester.
I am largely discounting routes as I was thinking how Tim would enjoy these crags. There are a good few fully route length things at Grinah though.
I think you maybe underestimate the amount of climbing, mostly bouldering that there is at Grinah. The bouldering at Lords/Simon/Hen is of a similar volume, it's just more obvious because it's all documented.
I've fully explored Grinah, there's a lot, it's just compact and complex in nature. This is part of my point, most non-developers just don't see a lot of stuff without direction, so walk away missing a lot of fun.
-
I finally went to the Grinah Stones this June for the first time. Given it’s a 6k/1hr20mins walk in from the reservoir and you can’t drive up the reservoir at weekends, it’s never going to be that popular. On top of that ideally you want a team as many of the best looking lines are highball or the landings not perfect. And on top of that it would be miserable up there for 6 months of the year. You’re certainly not going to risk questing up there unless it’s been pretty dry.
We enjoyed exploring around but if I’m honest I’d like to have known what a few things were. I also can’t help thinking that a touch more traffic would help with the scrittle! It’s not that much more ‘unique’ than Howshaw in the sense of its aspect and remoteness (40 mins walk to Howshaw), albeit there’s a hell of a lot more there. Dunno, feels kind of elitist to keep it under wraps. Lots of stuff at all levels for people to enjoy.
-
To expand on my 'compromised enjoyment' statement. I don't mean me particularly, though it would be nice not having to pre-clean everything myself, given the effort it takes to get there. And I would enjoy a period in which the crag had the sort of buzz about it that I think it deserves. I genuinely don't care about having my name attached to things here, but it dies seem a fair waste of the cleaning effort to not be able to alert people to something good which will revert to its original state in two or three years.
Generally though I'm thinking more of people who are inspired more by getting properly involved in the complexities of a crag, but who don't have the time or will to develop. Who given a little more knowledge would be going there more regularly and trying harder more involved things. For whatever reason this just doesn't happen now. I've literally never bumped into another climber there. From talking to climbers it seems the inspiration value of the early visits quickly wears off. They don't put it exactly like that obviously. There are different levels of inspiration to climb and presently it's only offering most people the introductory novelty visit or two, at least that's how it looks.
It's nice to have shared knowledge to discuss and debate. The level of crag knowledge about the place is minimal. This is quite boring after 20 years.
Yes this is periodically debated. I do think the consensus, such as it is, is skewed a little by people who're never likely to visit, or did once 'back in the day' romanticising an anachronistic convention which was invented long before bouldering was what it is now.
If I get chance I'll split the Grinah posts off and amend to the older thread debating the topic.
-
For me it would be a bit of a sad indictment of modern climbing if available ticks did suddenly make it popular.
I don't think an increase in popularity post documentation would have anything to do with "available ticks", it would simply be that people would know about it who currently don't. I mean I've been bouldering in the Peak for 6/7 years now and I only heard about Grinah in the last few months, and then simply because I follow a few relatively niche people on Instagram. People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.
As such, this rings rather true...
feels kind of elitist to keep it under wraps. Lots of stuff at all levels for people to enjoy.
Your preserved mystery proposition is more valid, sadly in practice it just means the opportunity for an experience is preserved for a mass of climbers who in the main never take it up.
I think this is a key point. The vast majority of people simply don't have the time to dedicate to the sort of exploratory days out that first ascenting or this kind of totally undocumented venue requires. They're being denied an experience on their terms in favour of preserving the experience of others with greater privilege. That's hard to get on board with.
I'm very grateful to people like Bonjoy who put so much time and effort into development, and it's a crying shame when their efforts are not shared with the wider community. Doing so gives time poor people like me an opportunity for some great experiences. I can't see how that's anything other than a good thing.
-
* Smiling Moon 7A+
25m below and right/south of Grands Doigts is a block with a crescent moon shaped ramp on the left side. Sit start on the ramp and climb up rightwards to a pocket on the arete and a juggy finish.
Ah you found it! I wondered when, it was just a matter of time really. I stumbled on this about 20 years ago and it was so minging with a lovely garden of it's own on the top, never went back until last summer when I started cleaning the top off and left arete and was struck by the lovely rib feature. Glad you both gave it some attention and it's been done from the sit start it deserves.
Great that you guys could develop the rocks on the Froggatt after the ash dieback work too and for my money's worth the best name is the fabulous 'Lionel Reachy :)
-
I think this is a key point. The vast majority of people simply don't have the time to dedicate to the sort of exploratory days out that first ascenting or this kind of totally undocumented venue requires. They're being denied an experience on their terms in favour of preserving the experience of others with greater privilege. That's hard to get on board with.
I'm very grateful to people like Bonjoy who put so much time and effort into development, and it's a crying shame when their efforts are not shared with the wider community. Doing so gives time poor people like me an opportunity for some great experiences. I can't see how that's anything other than a good thing.
I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.
If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now. I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.
-
People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.
Or own the guidebook that covers that area.
-
I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.
If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now. I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.
A very good counterpoint indeed. I do like the sound of a completely out of the way venue that no one knows about.
That said, the simple fact that it's a very long walk will likely leave it in obscurity anyway. Flaystones springs to mind as a good comparison; a lovely venue with a very good circuit of problems across the grades, thoroughly documented but, protected as it is by the c. 5 mile walk in, hardly gets any traffic at all. I think it does also seep pretty badly in places but still.
-
I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.
To be clear, the venue is not being preserved by remaining undocumented, just one exclusive way of experiencing it.
If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now.
Maybe I'm misreading you here, but you seem to be saying, if it's not already documented it can't be that good. Firstly I think you should reserve judgement until you've been. Secondly you underestimate the power of social convention/peer pressure, in this case an old decision to not document Grinah Stones. Whatever the origin of this convention, it's not something that local climbers would lightly overturn even if they wholly disagreed with it.
I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.
To be clear, and again I might be misreading you. You're saying you don't rate Barden Fell much anyway (and presumably would be fine if it too had a documentation ban)and if Grinah is it bit like it you think people aren't missing much because you don't need a guide to admire the view? :-\
-
People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.
Or own the guidebook that covers that area.
I assume it's the Over the Moors guide it's referenced in?
If so, I suspect most boulderers just don't own that guide (I don't), since it's a routes guide...
-
There’s bouldering in it (200 problems, albeit with V grades), it just covers a big area that doesn’t have a lot of recorded bouldering in it.
As you say, that means it’s on very few boulderers-who-don’t-climb-routes shelves but you can’t act like a shadowy cabal of elites are stopping the masses from knowing about a crag when there’s an in-print guidebook with a map, instructions on how to get there, text encouraging you to visit and full-page photos of impressive-looking highballs. ;)
The Barrow Stones is the real crag the Sheffield Mafia are keeping secret.
-
If there was a crag where its specifically in the book as we're leaving this in but with no problems listed as the unique vibe is the remoteness and sense of adventure, I think that'd be cool.
Like that doesn't feel elitist to me, just a conscious decision to preserve something. Anyone can go and try stuff there but it is word of mouth and personal exploration. Seems cool anyway.
-
To be clear, the venue is not being preserved by remaining undocumented, just one exclusive way of experiencing it.
Sorry yes this is what I meant, the experience being preserved
Maybe I'm misreading you here, but you seem to be saying, if it's not already documented it can't be that good. Firstly I think you should reserve judgement until you've been. Secondly you underestimate the power of social convention/peer pressure, in this case an old decision to not document Grinah Stones. Whatever the origin of this convention, it's not something that local climbers would lightly overturn even if they wholly disagreed with it.
Not at all, there’s obviously still gems out there waiting to be unearthed. My point was rather that if it was a crag of international quality (rather than regional or national quality) then I’m sure someone would have run roughshod over the convention by now, likely in the form of a YouTube video with a click bait title! I’m sure the social pressure of that convention would hold strong for people of our generation, but I’m not so sure about younger generations, who I think are likely to be more liberal minded?
To be clear, and again I might be misreading you. You're saying you don't rate Barden Fell much anyway (and presumably would be fine if it too had a documentation ban)and if Grinah is it bit like it you think people aren't missing much because you don't need a guide to admire the view? :-\
I love Barden it’s a great spot, but it’s not hugely expansive in terms of the problems there, so yes as a thought experiment, if it is a good comparison for Grinah (although sounds like an easier and lot shorter walk), then I really like the idea of it as unrecorded. Although in my mind I think I would still be led by how we talk about climbing on established crags, which is what I assume happens at Grinah? Eg:
“Oh you went up to Simon’s Seat, did you climb that big obvious arête you see on the way in?”
“Yes great climbing, I though about 6C, you?”
“Yes sounds about right.”
Or is there an omertà for Grinah?:
“Oh you went up to Grinah, you climb some good stuff?”
“I can neither confirm nor deny I went to Grinah and I can neither confirm nor deny I climbed a great 7b+ prow.”
-
(https://i.ibb.co/9vvkxV0/BFB41224-33-BB-4-A68-AC8-F-C71-B4-AFC66-A7.jpg)
Here it is (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/53%C2%B027'44.3%22N+1%C2%B048'17.5%22W/@53.4618445,-1.8069251,12z)
Snake Summit parking (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/53.432858,+-1.868833/@53.433146,-1.8685003,16z)
Derwent Valley parking (weekdays only) (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/53%C2%B025'55.0%22N+1%C2%B046'06.1%22W/@53.431941,-1.768356,16z)
-
When we talk about Barden Fell climbing, are we just talking about Simon's Seat, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones or are we also talking about: Sartree Crag; Cloven Crag; The southern Carncliff Top outliers (Asick Brow, the Eyes Boulder etc); Carncliff Top main; Earl Seat; Noon Crag; South Nab; Dale Head; Spirit of Kinder and surrounding boulders; Long Crag; the Great Pock Stones; the Little Pock Stones; Little Simon's Seat; the Wall Boulders; Rochard Crags; Aked's Clough; Pike Stones; and Whinhaugh?
There might be some more that have slipped my mind. If so, that's a lot of climbing!
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.
The motivation for developing things, that is the process of naming and sharing the details, doesn't have to be linked solely to the ego. Names are important for giving a climb an identity, and it is that identity that (in part) makes the climbing of them so worthwhile. When a climb has an identify it becomes so much more than just rock. It makes me a bit sad to think that there's a venue as good as Barden Fell where the climbs are so unloved that nobody has even thought them worth a name.
Get it documented. There'll still be nobody that goes and it'll be a better venue for those that do go. To compensate, the next time somebody pulls back the ivy curtain from some limestone choss you can make that your nameless venue.
-
Added comment by Cheque after split topic
Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Names are important for giving a climb an identity, and it is that identity that (in part) makes the climbing of them so worthwhile. When a climb has an identify it becomes so much more than just rock. It makes me a bit sad to think that there's a venue as good as Barden Fell where the climbs are so unloved that nobody has even thought them worth a name.
100% this. Well said. It's not all about #greentickwankers on Insta, giving problems names is the first step, after the FA, of giving them history, which ultimately gives them a soul and identity. Some clearly much more than others, and big, banging lines in a wild and remote place even more so.
Note: The poll was added by Bonjoy
-
Having not been before Im almost certainly looking at this through tinted glasses.
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.
If you could start afresh I'd agree, but with the situation as it is there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).
It seems to me there is a fairly marginal gain in documenting it but the downside of then not having a more adventurous venue like this available in future seems fairly major. This thread has got me psyched for a couple of trips up next summer, I can't imagine It'll ever be much more than that but I kinda like that.
-
This is an interesting debate and at the risk of further diluting the excellent list of foraging at the top...
I had a look the (Todmorden) Bridestones for the first time in 20 years recently. That's fallen off the map too for presumably similar reasons. It was in the Cameron Duff guide from 2001 but not the more recent Yorkshire Bouldering guide. It's also 5-10 mins from the road vs the long march to Grinah Stones.
Some of the rock is a bit soft but don't feel there's a massive step change in lots of similar venues elsewhere. I could be wrong. But it didn't feel particularly trashed. Anyone comment on Bridestones - was anyone here involved in the decision to leave it off the guide?
...and if anyone has a PDF of the ACD guide that would make a perfect christmas gift, I only have the older OTE topo :)
-
there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).
A couple of points.
1. Despite popular belief, rock climbing does extend beyond the bounds of the Peak District National Park.
2. Your above statement is probably untrue and largely a matter of perspective. There will probably be plenty of decent venues out there, even if the climbing is predominantly <7A.
-
I was vaguely aware of the Grinah Stones as a result of reading Over The Moors cover-to-cover, but this thread has massively piqued my interest in heading there come good weather next year. As a Sheffied-based boulderer who has steadily chipped away at a lot of the bouldering in the Peak at both obvious and more obscure venues, I’m at the point where it’s relatively unusual for me to have done absolutely nothing at a crag, and even more unusual that I’ve never even been to have a look; in the case of Grinah I think it’s simply because I don’t know a) what’s there that justifies going there rather than somewhere else (either a known quantity or somewhere that I’m inspired to go as a result of media, a write-up, a gushing UKC log) and b) what the logistics of the place are like in terms of whether things will be wet/unclimbably dirty/not possible to do if I just head there with one mate and two pads between us.
Hands down the best day I had this year was going up to Howshaw and doing Black Rhino, having a poke around the crag, doing a couple of easier things, then walking back down. The best bit of that was being out in a beautiful place with a good friend on a stunning day, but the fact that we did such a brilliant problem was both the icing on the cake and what got us up there in the first place. It sounds like Grinah Stones would be a similar experience, but since we went up to Howshaw my mate has had a baby and now gets one day of climbing a week, best-case scenario. I’m still very time-rich as I’m self-employed, but given how precious his days out now are, if I convince him that we should head up to Grinah are we going to have another fantastic day or will we take the pads for a very long walk, find that we needed more pads and people, and head back with him quietly wishing he’d spent his limited time at Stanage or Curbar?
I feel a bit gross writing all of this out as it feels like it goes exactly counter to the whole idea of the Grinah Stones, in terms of what some other people have written here and the write-up in the BMC guide – and also a bit like I’m asking those who have put in the work in going up there and and cleaning climbing things to share their information with me and convince me of its value. I figure it’s worth expressing, however, in case my view is representative of others’. Basically I’ve no interest in tearing the veil back completely with some bullshit clickbait ‘Hidden GEMS of the PEAKS – you’ll NEVER believe where we CLIMBED’ YT video or exhaustive descriptions, topos, beta videos, and UKC logs; it seems part of what’s special about the place is that sense of mystery and exploration. But I personally would love to have a better idea of what’s up there, so something like Bonjoy’s ‘taster topo’ would be hugely appreciated, were he willing to make and share it.
Hopefully this doesn't come across as too self-centred and indicative of everything wrong with the UKC/Instagram generation of climbers (particularly as I've never used a green-tick emoji in my life!). I'm definitely not demanding anyone share the fruits of their labour, nor even arguing for an approach that we should take as a community; more sharing my thoughts as someone who is interested in going but has yet to due to laziness. If the consensus is that my reasons for not going are ones that mean I don't really deserve to go in the first place that's fair enough - it might be that we as a community conclude that Grinah is best not visited by people who prize some semblance of certainty over adventure in their days out and want answers to age-old questions like 'what will be dry', 'how many pads are needed to make something totally safe', 'is there even anything good there'.
-
there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).
A couple of points.
1. Despite popular belief, rock climbing does extend beyond the bounds of the Peak District National Park.
2. Your above statement is probably untrue and largely a matter of perspective. There will probably be plenty of decent venues out there, even if the climbing is predominantly <7A.
Im sure there's plenty of great undiscovered gems in the himalaya, they're not very accessible though. My point is that it's nice to have a range of experiences available within an area, and I feel like the 'documented crags' end of the spectrum is pretty well covered in the peak.
-
Certain problems are in a bad state. There’s enough information online if you want to go but having that barrier to entry helps protect the place to some extent.
Crags with dodgy access are treated in the same way e.g Craig y David etc.
-
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.
This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!
-
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.
This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!
We've already planted our flag in Brownlow Rocher. The march south continues!
-
for those seeking the undocumented experience, just don't take a guidebook the next time you go to a crag for the first time.
-
If there was a crag where its specifically in the book as we're leaving this in but with no problems listed as the unique vibe is the remoteness and sense of adventure, I think that'd be cool.
Like that doesn't feel elitist to me, just a conscious decision to preserve something. Anyone can go and try stuff there but it is word of mouth and personal exploration.
There's always been some debate on whether the problems round Grinah should be documented or not, back in 2007 when we were writing the BMC Over the Moors guide this thread took place:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7075.msg103229.html#msg103229
The previous BMC Kinder guide had even less information and asking the question at the time about this very same issue, we decided not to topo the area and stick with tradition. I realise traditions change, thousands of boulder problems that now sit in guides were never recorded when done back in the day and we stand on the shoulders of giants such as John Allen and big Ron.
JB at the time summed it up by saying how it gives a totally unique experience on grit, certainly in the Peak. We cobbled a page and a few photo’s for it in the end and hoped that it might entice and attract rather than promote too much I suppose, giving people the opportunity to experience it a bit differently from other venues in the guide which were documented in detail.
It’s well worth the walk up there, the Barrow Stones are also great and that exploratory feel certainly chimes with their remote aspect and the effort to climb them. There's a small amount of info and photo's on UKC too:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/grinah_and_barrow_stones-27295/#overview
Maybe a photo article in one of the mags or on the web would work and give people something to help inspire and inform - I did a small piece for High magazine back in 2003 which I'm sure the wads of the day were all reading ;)
It would still allow that personal and unique experience of the area which in these days of soundbites and insta itnterweb ticks, is a very precious thing indeed.
-
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.
This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!
Yeah, that "massively underused resource" term really got my hackles up. They're rocks that we arbitrarily decide to climb on, not a resource that 'should' be 'used'.
-
While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....
I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.
:-\
-
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.
This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!
Yeah, that "massively underused resource" term really got my hackles up. They're rocks that we arbitrarily decide to climb on, not a resource that 'should' be 'used'.
:agree:
As a Time served Highland explorer who has done his fair share of development including guides Gaz, i am interested in how you would go about improving/tweaking or even scrapping the status quo for the afore mentioned area?
If you could somehow take back the Torridon guide and slide time backward to a era before the Uni groups and Van life adventurers, would you?
Genuinely important thread this as it opens up a long running conversation that in the first instance is about a specific local but has wide ranging impacts on ethics and access/ guides and grades and ideas on protection/conservation.
Does every generation struggle with this?
-
As somebody who has done some development and been involved in guides, then yes, I think it is a good thing to share information about rock climbing venues. I can see the value of having undocumented crags but the reality is that if there's no information out there about them then very few people will go (and for places like Grinah even having the information out there wouldn't be enough to make them popular, such are the barriers to access). On balance, it sounds like Grinah is too good not to share.
Let's not pretend that Grinah is the only off-grid crag in the Peak - the Woolpacks have been mentioned - and I bet Bonjoy and Bolehillbilly etc have venues up their sleeves. If you're struggling to think of where they might be then, duh, that's because that's the whole point!
Coming at this from a different angle, anybody who is even remotely interested in the long term conservation of rock climbing will have to think about it in terms of a planner. In doing so, words like "under-used resource" might slip their lips.
The preservation of places like Stanage or Almscliff is not served by information embargoes on places like Grinah or Barden Fell. Hypothetically, you'd be better off having information, technicolour videos, and green ticks out there for Grinah (that might increase the annual visitor numbers from 4 to 5); and combining this with information embargoes on Stanage. Stanage would still be popular - there's plenty of people around to share the information by word of mouth - but people might actually set their sights further afield and spare the rock of our most at-risk venues. Maybe its best to turn the dark forces of Instagram and ego to serve rock climbing rather than leave them to destroy it.
-
I think you’ve failed to support your own argument as a planner there Will: if Grinah is not going to become popular even if documented (as you say) then it’s not going to take any pressure off Stanage. As Bradders pointed out as a Yorkshire equivalent, I’m not sure many people chose Flaystones over Almscliff for a summer’s evening, despite the videos, grades and green ticks all around.
As such you’re not going to ‘spread the load’ of climbers by opening up Grinah as a ‘measured commodity’.
-
That point goes beyond Grinah. Giving good information does help reduce the load at crowded places, though admittedly it's not doing it enough or as much as it could at the moment. I'm thinking of Unknown Stones where there are definitely people who use it enthusiastically who might have ended up at Almscliff, but use is not as widespread as it could be because:
a) the website structure that was designed when we started with 30 crags is now groaning under the weight of over 100,
b) mixed quality of topos meaning some high quality venues don't look very good on paper (lack of good action shots etc),
c) lack of social media buzz - the BMC needs to pay some Psychi-pad punts to go-a-gramming at Sigsworth,
d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.
-
I've split this from the new probs thread and added a poll.
-
d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.
For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.
-
Having not been before Im almost certainly looking at this through tinted glasses.
I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.
If you could start afresh I'd agree, but with the situation as it is there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).
It seems to me there is a fairly marginal gain in documenting it but the downside of then not having a more adventurous venue like this available in future seems fairly major. This thread has got me psyched for a couple of trips up next summer, I can't imagine It'll ever be much more than that but I kinda like that.
When you say marginal gains, out of interest how many problems do you imagine are up there? And would your view be affected by how many potential high quality lines there are?
-
Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.
Also this is the ideal time of year to be talking about Grinah as it’s when we all like to dream that we’ll be spending loads of time in these sort of places when the weather improves. When it gets to May of course, if any of us are still psyched the absolute hassle of trying to persuade others to come along will rule it out. :lol:
-
d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.
For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.
Believe me Remus, there will never be a shortage of scrittle to brush off the rocks of Bleaklow and Kinder and there are no shortage of much more obscure and untrammelled bits than Grinah. I think we can all agree that the approach and location will always mean Grinah is infrequently visited, regardless of documentation. Documentation will not rob anyone of a quiet day up there, or the chance to clean scrittle, and if they want to not know how hard things are, or where other people's favourite climbs are then they need not read any topo.
-
Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.
Also this is the ideal time of year to be talking about Grinah as it’s when we all like to dream that we’ll be spending loads of time in these sort of places when the weather improves. When it gets to May of course, if any of us are still psyched the absolute hassle of trying to persuade others to come along will rule it out. :lol:
Soz Mike :-[. I'll add your comment to the OP.
-
While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....
I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.
:-\
Sounds like an insufferable bigoted and tedious arsehole. No wonder they avoid company.
-
I can appreciate the sentiment of "people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z" but not "other people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z but I'm fine to do it." Either people are allowed to climb on it or they ain't.
-
That's not what's being discussed.
-
d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.
For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.
Putting aside theoreticals about removing the strain from popular venues and focusing on Grinah: what Bonjoy said. Realistically for this crag there will still be very few visitors. What you're actually taking away is the opportunity to visit a venue and climb things which don't have any identity. Most of those things will have been climbed previously; for some of the harder things that will be unclear.
That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook. It's also an experience which, I'd argue, is seen as generally inferior by most climbers. If it weren't then we wouldn't have guidebooks and, even if we did, people wouldn't use them.
-
That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook.
If you don’t want to use the bolts on a retrobolted sport climb you can just ignore them…
As to your second point, I’d point you to the music industry as an example of how things which are popular are not necessarily better.
-
What is the argument for not advertising it? Is it an SSSI or has sensitive access (it’s all CRoW isn’t it?), is the rock particularly friable or is it just to make it even more of a wilderness experience than it would be if documented?
-
While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....
I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.
:-\
Sounds like an insufferable bigoted and tedious arsehole. No wonder they avoid company.
Quite. Not least as I first bouldered on Howshaw close to 30 years ago and there's no way I was first. I guess I'm not just any fucker.
-
What is the argument for not advertising it? Is it an SSSI or has sensitive access (it’s all CRoW isn’t it?), is the rock particularly friable or is it just to make it even more of a wilderness experience than it would be if documented?
The latter. The rock quality is very good and there are no access issues or particular wildlife issues.
-
Why is projecting an anthropogenic identity onto a vertical collection of sand and pebbles necessary to deem it worthwhile to climb? Rock has its own identity, although it's perhaps not one recognised through a commodified, global-north mentality. If by identity you mean some sense of history through the overlauded explorers of yore having climbed it years and years ago, then I can partially understand that point of view, but the history of a series of moves up a natural line can be just as satiated by "I turned a corner and saw a rock I wanted to climb. I gave it my own unspoken name and my own kinaesthetically-derived identity that lives solely within me, relies on my own imagination, and is flavoured with a mixture of spices brought on the wind, the weather, and the wildlife." There exists very few places to have such an experience in England, and arguably in Wales too, so why not leave it there for people who would enjoy that experience to find for themselves? It's not an experience that can be had by going to Stanage without a guidebook, because there, there's an implicit knowledge that what you're climbing has someone else's story attached to it, without knowing what that story is.
There is indeed an argument that not extensively documenting it could be gatekeeping, which is why I would support the idea of hints and teases online and in guidebooks, but nothing more than would spoil a potentially magical experience.
A few apologies: sorry if this has already been said, there were a fair few TL,DRs in there. Secondly, fuck, I appear have gone full Redhead, just without the phalli. Thirdly, I wholeheartedly support documenting most things, hence potentially appearing hypocritical...
I'm now also worried I sound a bit like Fiend's DM pal. Hopefully not...
-
I can appreciate the sentiment of "people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z" but not "other people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z but I'm fine to do it." Either people are allowed to climb on it or they ain't.
That's not what's being discussed.
I'm not sure that's true.
It's more than "I wish no-one else knew about the problems here". I think that's the point Wellsy is making.
-
That's an experience that you could have by just ignoring the guidebook.
If you don’t want to use the bolts on a retrobolted sport climb you can just ignore them…
That seems a bad analogy to me. Bolts are in your face throughout when climbing a line of them and can be clipped with the same kit you have for trad climbing the line.
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.
-
fuck, I appear have gone full Redhead
:lol:
-
I think E A Baker might have the first ascents on the hills round Bleaklow, describing the Barrow Stones as 'like some rude Stonehenge or a battered circle of pre-historic buildings"
Who said they aren't documented in a guide book? His was published in 1903
Some of the patina at the Barrow stones is solid, but in other parts is a bit poppadom thin on some of the more weathered boulders
-
That's not what's being discussed.
I'm not sure that's true.
It's more than "I wish no-one else knew about the problems here". I think that's the point Wellsy is making.
I would still agree with Chris that that is not under discussion. I've not seen any suggestion the place shouldn't be promoted, or that the iidea is to reduce visits or keep it quiet. The whole thing is about not recording problems to allow everyone the experience of a quality venue where you have to make the climbs up yourself.
I was actually on the fence for a bit, thinking about how Howshaw has come on, but I'm back off it now. Will's consumerist language is precisely the opposite of what's being preserved here - one place where climbing can be about the act not the write-up.
]That seems a bad analogy to me....
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.
Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.
-
Why is projecting an anthropogenic identity onto a vertical collection of sand and pebbles necessary to deem it worthwhile to climb?
Well indeed, but conversely, why is one person choosing to attach some human story to an inanimate bit of geology mutually exclusive to someone else appreciating it in whatever way they prefer?
-
Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.
You ARE the guidebook to Stanage FFS ::)
-
I think that the way things are documented is really important.
Al's old bouldering guides were written with an element of discovery about them. I think it's rather less black/white than the question of whether things should be documented or not.
We're all on here, talking about the venue. We will end up sharing information. There's no private language.
Personally, I'm more likely to go for a good run up there.
Are folk going there with pads to boulder? There's a reason for asking that question, which is directed more towards the experiential than the thing.
Going back to Wellsy's comments, it's the reference to something exclusive which seems to be his point.
Edit: my personal feeling is that I would have no problem with access being restricted to certain areas/crags for periods of time in order to allow for some recovery. Not saying that would necessarily work.
-
As someone who regularly wanders far too far through sheep infested bog to boulder in solitude and obscurity, I still like to know who's been there first (in my case that usually means a visit to messrs Crook and Smith).
Some form of documentation for the would be explorer is really useful, even if its just a Topo on a blog. It means I can Envisage a circuit, plan my day and recruit bods if required.
However, It probably needs no more than that.
As Pantontino lectures myself at great length; there is an equation involving faff versus quality when it comes to guidebook write ups, and the negative weighting on the faff is substantial.
-
]That seems a bad analogy to me....
A more accurate analogy would be a bolted line where you could magically choose to have the bolts in or out during your ascent.
Yeah that's not helping either. Proper bollocks. I mean I've taken a guidebook to Stanage about twice.
Okay, an imperfect comparison, but I was riffing off Tim's lazy bolted trad analogy.
-
Al's old bouldering guides were written with an element of discovery about them.
Hmmm, or maybe there was just less information to document at the time. They were after all the 1st gen of Peak bouldering guides.
Edit: my personal feeling is that I would have no problem with access being restricted to certain areas/crags for periods of time in order to allow for some recovery. Not saying that would necessarily work.
That's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist at Grinah. It has no connection with documentation in this case. Also, how do rocks recover over time? Vegetation may grow back, rocks just erode, either faster or slower.
-
I don' know BJ, I get your point about there being less to record perhaps, but I'd suggest that's only part of the issue.
There's a difference between things being shared, and what then turns into a wholescale commoditisation.
There's something about the question "How should Grinah Stones be documented?" which seems contradictory to me. It doesn't feel like our place to decide. None of the problems at Stoney meant any less when they weren't in a book.
-
Bonjoy, you're asking a serious question for good reason.
Some thoughts.
Things have changed, haven't they. Documenting things didn't need to have to mean much more than sharing.
Deliberately recording nothing at all - but included in that, is the assumption of trying to stop anything being recorded in the future - seems a difficult position to justify, in terms of the way that's then maintained.
I'm not saying I have a problem with nothing being recorded, I'm just asking "Who can make that decision for everyone else?".
What if a number of really key lines were recorded? You could have 5 key classics across a wide grade range, and give an indication of what other climbing each boulder has to offer.
You could go further, and perhaps not include first ascent details/claims, or perhaps not even give names to problems.
A small number of choice lines, but with some other suggestions could be a way of making the trip up there a more interesting/attractive venture for those not as familiar.
There are decisions about who has access to information. What could be updated and shared, and by whom? Are answers to those questions something that could then be passed on to future custodians?
A bit of folklore could add significant richness - making it feel as though a less arbitrary/exclusive policy was being adopted - without having something that was limited to the extent that other people might want to challenge it in the future.
Hope that's a bit more helpful ;D
Dave.
-
The more I think about it the less I'm convinced by the argument that having a guide somewhere means you can't experience a place on your own terms. At places where the signs of traffic are obvious you won't get that, but there are lots of places where there are virtually no signs of traffic. You could have an exploratory day at Sigsworth very easily, for instance.
-
Shame it's shit.
-
Even grade-obsessed Ben enjoyed a day on sub-7s at Sigsworth. By that yardstick it must be the world's greatest crag.
-
Bonjoy, you're asking a serious question for good reason.
Some thoughts.
Things have changed, haven't they. Documenting things didn't need to have to mean much more than sharing.
Deliberately recording nothing at all - but included in that, is the assumption of trying to stop anything being recorded in the future - seems a difficult position to justify, in terms of the way that's then maintained.
I'm not saying I have a problem with nothing being recorded, I'm just asking "Who can make that decision for everyone else?".
What if a number of really key lines were recorded? You could have 5 key classics across a wide grade range, and give an indication of what other climbing each boulder has to offer.
You could go further, and perhaps not include first ascent details/claims, or perhaps not even give names to problems.
A small number of choice lines, but with some other suggestions could be a way of making the trip up there a more interesting/attractive venture for those not as familiar.
I'd be comfortable with just writing it up like any other crag, but also i respect other people's wishes and think what you're describing (which is similar to what I'd suggested) is a decent option. I think at least twenty climbs though give the climbing potential there, this would still represent a small fraction of the lines available.
There are decisions about who has access to information. What could be updated and shared, and by whom? Are answers to those questions something that could then be passed on to future custodians?
A bit of folklore could add significant richness - making it feel as though a less arbitrary/exclusive policy was being adopted - without having something that was limited to the extent that other people might want to challenge it in the future.
In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve. In hindsight it might have been better if I'd not asked the question, but just put out a few nuggets of perhaps anonymised information somewhere obscure online for people to find. But then that feels like a very unilateral breaking of a group code.
-
In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve.
Could always just be done like "secret" French crags - sketchy hand-drawn topos that are hard to understand and where it takes ages to find someone who has one... Can definitely still feel like an adventure compared to normal!
-
Then again 'Dog biscuit' seems like quite a popular option.
-
Then again 'Dog biscuit' seems like quite a popular option.
I like the charcoal ones.
-
not soggy biscuits though.
-
I was involved in the Over The Moors guide, linked earlier. Guidebooks are pretty exhausting (I stopped laughing at mistakes in other guides once I started making them myself ;-) ). There comes a point near the end, when you just want to get it finished, and someone pipes up Fuck, what about the Grinah Stones!?
Everyone looks around for the person willing to trot up there on a sunny day, get the photos, draw maps then launch off on the bottomless task of trying to work out what's what, who did what and when.
There's a heavy silence.
Then someone comes up with a line of some mystical bullshit about preserving the adventure, special place, spirit, a bunch of stuff like that.
A cheer goes up.and the progenitor of the idea gets bought a drink.
There's a lot to be said for mysticism.
-
Real talk.
Sometime shortly before Yorkshire Grit vol2 came out I bumped into Robin Nicholson in Ilkley quarry and started excitedly telling him about the new crag I'd found. If looks could kill...
We've already had to significantly rework Attermire and Dib Scar to account for retro-bolting. I'm just waiting for Dave Musgrove to email me on the day before I send it to the printers and tell me that he's retroed the entirety of Twistleton or something. Someone lock his drill up until summer!
(Sorry for being off topic.)
-
It feels like this is a discussion about preserving an experience, not preserving a venue. As such it's difficult to have a complete view without having experienced what you're trying to preserve. The nearest I've been was a small crag above Lancaster that I used to visit on a regular basis as a student - 45 mins up a hill to get there, 20 mins freewheeling back. It's unquestionably a shit crag (didn't even make it into Lancashire Bouldering!), yet provided many evenings of entertainment with a few friends before we had a car. It's fully documented on UKC now and I think if I had that time again but factored in the UKC documentation, I'd not get the same enjoyment because I'd do the problems that were documented and think they were a bit underwhelming rather than finding the entertainment by doing eliminates and being in the moment. I could still go and ignore UKC, but it would somehow not be the same.
It's experiences like the above that make me struggle a bit with this argument.
The more I think about it the less I'm convinced by the argument that having a guide somewhere means you can't experience a place on your own terms.
I think the above is probably technically true, but I feel like the experience has been changed. It's kind of analogous (in my mind, at least) to the argument put forward by retro-bolters when they say a trad climber can just ignore the bolts and still do the route as a trad route - strictly true, but you'd struggle to have the same experience as would have previously been available.
In an ideal world, unfettered by egos and social media, the minimal documentation ethic would probably work and, I think, would be my preferred option. However, it feels like it would only be a matter of time before more stuff got added to those minimal routes when someone does something they think is the next great Peak classic and wants to see their name in lights. All that leads to me to think it has to be all or nothing, with me falling on the nothing side of the fence.
However, going back to my original point about preserving an experience, it has to be the people that have had that experience that make the call as they know what is there to be preserved and whether it's worth it.
-
It feels like this is a discussion about preserving an experience, not preserving a venue. As such it's difficult to have a complete view without having experienced what you're trying to preserve. The nearest I've been was a small crag above Lancaster that I used to visit on a regular basis as a student - 45 mins up a hill to get there, 20 mins freewheeling back. It's unquestionably a shit crag (didn't even make it into Lancashire Bouldering!), yet provided many evenings of entertainment with a few friends before we had a car. It's fully documented on UKC now and I think if I had that time again but factored in the UKC documentation, I'd not get the same enjoyment because I'd do the problems that were documented and think they were a bit underwhelming rather than finding the entertainment by doing eliminates and being in the moment. I could still go and ignore UKC, but it would somehow not be the same.
It's experiences like the above that make me struggle a bit with this argument.
What you are describing there is how to get the best experience out of an essentially underwhelming crag. This is quiet different to Grinah. At the other extreme, would say Almscliff be better undocumented if it were remote and undescribed? There is a trade off between one sort of experience and another which I think has a lot to do with how much good climbing a crag might have.
In an ideal world, unfettered by egos and social media, the minimal documentation ethic would probably work and, I think, would be my preferred option. However, it feels like it would only be a matter of time before more stuff got added to those minimal routes when someone does something they think is the next great Peak classic and wants to see their name in lights. All that leads to me to think it has to be all or nothing, with me falling on the nothing side of the fence.
Apologies for picking your post out to make this point, but I do have to take issue with the assumption that writing up new climbs is only and always an ego driven 'look at me' exercise.
While there is some element of this, it is far from the only or main motivation for many developers. In the case of Grinah for instance I think the most fun would be had by going up and doing things as a team with nobody taking credit, or indeed recording who was there on the day something was done.
-
What you are describing there is how to get the best experience out of an essentially underwhelming crag. This is quite different to Grinah. At the other extreme, would say Almscliff be better undocumented if it were remote and undescribed? There is a trade off between one sort of experience and another which I think has a lot to do with how much good climbing a crag might have.
Yep, I broadly agree with this - it's not the same situation, just the nearest I've been to climbing somewhere undocumented with me trying to share how I think it would have changed my experience if documented. The lack of documentation improved the experience at a terrible crag. However, it may be that the quality of Grinah does change the balance, but do you think that the lack of documentation makes the Grinah experience worse or just different?
Will people get more out of a day's climbing if it's documented? Yes, probably. Will they get a better experience? That depends on what they get out of the creative side of finding a problem, piecing it together and doing it. My guess is that you get a lot out of this and I think I do too. I could go up with a full topo and climb loads of three star problems or I could go and play around and get creative. I'll probably succeed less but I might enjoy it more.
Apologies for picking your post out to make this point, but I do have to take issue with the assumption that writing up new climbs is only and always an ego driven 'look at me' exercise. While there is some element of this, it is far from the only or main motivation for many developers.
Perfectly fair challenge on the ego point - it wasn't directed at most/all developers and definitely not at yourself. Your reporting of new problems feels like the antithesis of what I was meaning (as I said in the thread before it was split, your new problem thread is one of my highlights of the year on here). To be clear, writing up new climbs is not only and always ego driven, but sometimes the sharing of new lines on social media and the language used around it is. I was more trying to illustrate that I didn't think partial documentation would hold out for long in a world where there are some egos and social media. A sort of thin end of the wedge argument.
In the case of Grinah for instance I think the most fun would be had by going up and doing things as a team with nobody taking credit, or indeed recording who was there on the day something was done.
Totally agree with this, hence coming down on the side of no documentation.
-
Cheers for the reply and clarification. That all makes sense to me.
However, it may be that the quality of Grinah does change the balance, but do you think that the lack of documentation makes the Grinah experience worse or just different?
I think a modest amount of info would enhance the experience for most first/second time visitors.
I think people motivated to revisit would get more out of a greater level of information.
I think a near total lack of information provides an interesting and different experience, but it comes at the price of preventing the standard way of interacting with the crag. This effect increases with subsequent visits.
I agree that there is some chance that any sort of documentation may slide into full documentation over time. But then again there have been at least two Youtube vids showing a good handful of problems up there, which have been online for years, and this has not escalated into more detailed information yet. Nor has the write-up in Over the Moors. I'd also re-iterate the point that no amount of documentation is going to persuade the average climber to visit, it just takes too much effort and there are too few days in the year when conditions are suitable. The type of climber who does make it up there has a reasonably high chance of being someone who will respect whatever consensus exists. And lastly, even a total lack of documentation is not an actual barrier to someone publicly writing up the crag without asking anyone else's opinion first, should they wish to.
-
Great thread, I’ve been reading with much interest whilst trying to work out where I sit….
It’s such a hard call, documentation of venues should happen, and definitely improves the crag experience 98% of the time. However there is a lot of merit to having somewhere that isn’t! I suppose the question is should that place be the Grinah stones??
I’ve never been, but hope to regardless of if there’s a topo or not.
The only time I’ve been up to the barden fell crags I went in summer on a whim, no guide just me and three pads. It was a pretty cool experience, very enjoyable and felt a little bit special.
I have to admit to spending the evening working out what I had done on UKC. Whilst I was equally pleasantly surprised and dismayed about the grades of some things my experience that day wouldn’t have been compromised if I hadn’t found out names and grades.
On reflection I think it’s great that there are decent venues out there where you can go and do this, yes you can go without a guide but part of me loves the idea that there are places where you have no choice to leave the guide behind. You have to go and just climb…
Commercialism and consumerism are everywhere, it would be nice if there was the odd Venue you could leave all that BS behind and just climb like you were the only person who’s ever been there.
Just my 2p.
-
Great thread, making for good pre Christmas entertainment.
Anyone tried a visit as a 2 day trip with a night spent camping up there? Sounds like a good way to make the walk in worth it, although pads and camping stuff is a sizeable load.
Related q: is there much there worth taking trad gear for? Or would you do it all above mats
-
I keep threatening to have a camp up there, it's just a lot of kit to bring if you are also climbing with pads. There are a couple of good flat sheltered camp spots and some suitable bivvi shelter type blocks. Midges could deffo be an issue if bivviing though.
There are a handful of trad possibilities, two or three E4/5 type things and some harder things without much gear to speak of. It's certainly worth bringing a short rope and harness for cleaning highballs though.
-
Ah hadn't considered midges. Tent does sound more feasible.
Sounds like a fun trip. I'll join the list of people with vague ambitions to head up there in the summer
-
I did what I think was a roped First Ascent at Grinah.
The week before Andy Cave and Simon Nadin had been trying it unsuccessfully. I was pleased to do it. I think it's because I was stronger, bolder and more technically gifted than Andy or Simon. Either that or...
It wasn't a great route.
-
I did what I think was a roped First Ascent at Grinah.
Sounds like you're trying to claim an ascent at Grinah.
Mods, please purge this information from public vision.
-
Four pages, great Christmas entertainment. By now we could have crowdsourced a topo, written the poem, Yossarian published a stunning graphic .pdf guide as a Christmas Ldn Climber download special and Grimer recorded a JamCrack episode interviewing those who have actually climbed there. Keep it up.
-
There are decisions about who has access to information. What could be updated and shared, and by whom? Are answers to those questions something that could then be passed on to future custodians?
A bit of folklore could add significant richness - making it feel as though a less arbitrary/exclusive policy was being adopted - without having something that was limited to the extent that other people might want to challenge it in the future.
In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve. In hindsight it might have been better if I'd not asked the question, but just put out a few nuggets of perhaps anonymised information somewhere obscure online for people to find. But then that feels like a very unilateral breaking of a group code.
All I mean there Bonjoy, is that if you document things, whichever way you do it, how is that preserved in the future? Who has access to the info, and do we have any legitimate right to overly influence how it's then used? You are putting the question out to group input ;)
-
In some ways it feels like decision by committee on this whole question and talk of custodians etc. is counter to the spirit of what people are trying to preserve.
Could always just be done like "secret" French crags - sketchy hand-drawn topos that are hard to understand and where it takes ages to find someone who has one... Can definitely still feel like an adventure compared to normal!
This reminds me of the early Stone Country guides. The maps were useless, with no GPS coordinates, and waffley poetic descriptions of the approach. In my early climbing years I found this incredibly frustrating. If someone has the information, I don't want it drip fed to me in morse code - I want to be told how to get there. If all I wanted to do was wander round a bog for 3 hours with a pad on my back, I would have looked up google earth and aimed for a new spot.
IMO documenting something doesn't take away the adventure, because you CAN not look at the guide. It's not like some of the sport crags I've been to in the Sud Tirol where there's a laminated topo at the base of the crag, with placards on each route with the name. Very nice, but yes, impossible to ignore.
If you wander over to Grinah with a pad and no guide, how will that be different from there not being a guide? It very much false equivalence to the bolted route argument, you literally cannot avoid that there is a bolt there. (just read some more of the thread and see a few people saying they felt that knowing a venue is documented isn't the same as it being undocumented. That's interesting, as for me I guess they're both different forms of the same self delusion as, in both cases the "difficulty" (if not grade) and quality of the lines, is known to somebody, somewhere, you're just unable to get that info - one way through personal choice, the other through someone else's choice (not to share/publish).
This might just be a personal view, but I really hate info being held out of the public. To me that's taking away freedoms, not giving adventure. If the info is documented you have the freedom to not read it, it doesn't change the rock, the environment etc. It means it's there if you want it. However, I can understand this being a personal, not universal opinion.
We had a big dilemma about the same thing when we were in Chile 2 years ago (humblebrag...) doing new routes in Aysen. We did as much research as we could, and interestingly found a lot of things along the way that were clearly "known", but not shared. This rankled a bit, as the knowledge that the first half of the 800m tower we were planning to try a second ascent / variation / new route on had belay stations with bolts... Had we known this, it might have changed our approach. The whole thing was probably the truest adventure I've had in my life and we mulled over how much information to publish. In the end we added some better maps, topos and route information and some snippets like maybe not camping where the last teams (including ours) had camped, as it was right under a huge and not very stable looking glacial moraine lake with hanging glaciers above....
Ego, pioneering spirit, human nature. We've always explored, documented, shared, bragged, fought, argued over who got there first. I find holding back information creates a kind of low grade adventure, but again, I can see why some might feel that worth preserving even if I, personally, don't.
Not convinced this ramble adds anything. Probably just says more about me that anything else :lol:
P.S. still never climbed in the peak. Maybe this winter....
-
I've camped up there before and bouldered in the evening sunlight. It pissed it down the next morning so it was less productive than it might have been.
We cycled in as far as possible (with bouldering mats) which was not as bad as it sounds as the road is shut to traffic so there is no chance of being blown in front of a car.
I'm firmly in the don't document camp. There are so many over documented venues in the peak where every boulder has had someone climb every obscure possibility in order to satisfy the British train spotting, list compiling, and categorisation urge.
-
That's not the case here. AFAIK the only written info is one route Cavey put in the Outside new routes book. You could still did out I'm sure. Otherwise it only resides in the brains of those who've been, and getting greyer by the day. If there is some secret topo I don't think it has left BJs laptop.
The not looking at the guide argument is totally specious. The knowledge that it exists will always be there, the temptation will always be there, it isn't the same. Otherwise you'd not have bothered going to Aysen. You went because it was unclimbed.
I do agree with your point mostly though, when going on expensive trips far from the UK researching the best info makes a big difference to your chance of success. I can understand those with unfinished projects might not seek to broadcast it though. And there is also a much bigger question of how much longer we will able to persist with such colonial attitudes unchallenged. Well it's already being challenged, even in places where we did a pretty good job on the ancestors, so maybe not so long. I also think it's likely westerners going 'exploring' for their holidays won't be judged that important vs conservatin priorities. But that's a tangent.
When places don't have much of a written history then naming routes and publishing info can be seen a form of territorial claim, and also a sort of domestication, of bringing a wild place in a little closer to civilisation. I just think it would be nice to leave one place in the Peak a little further out there.
-
"This might just be a personal view, but I really hate info being held out of the public. To me that's taking away freedoms, not giving adventure. If the info is documented you have the freedom to not read it, it doesn't change the rock, the environment etc. It means it's there if you want it. However, I can understand this being a personal, not universal opinion."
This.
Some light description of what it's like there, with the odd description for a handful of noteworthy lines - to give a sense of what you might expect - would allow useful information. This could be combined with an explanation of why there is a common local practice of not recording new routes etc.
At the end of the day, guides used to be just that - guides.
I think there's a sense in that which is being lost.
-
That's almost exactly what is in the definitive guide posted above, though with photos of a couple of the best lines not descriptions.
-
That's almost exactly what is in the definitive guide posted above, though with photos of a couple of the best lines not descriptions.
Great shots, too. Whoever took them must have a fantastic camera.
-
The not looking at the guide argument is totally specious. The knowledge that it exists will always be there, the temptation will always be there, it isn't the same. Otherwise you'd not have bothered going to Aysen. You went because it was unclimbed.
I kind of agree and kind of don't. I'm still able to be convinced both ways. For me, if it's in someone's brain it exists. It's not the documentation of it that makes it tangible, it's the existence in the common body of knowledge (as ephemeral as that is, being just one person's greying brain).
I also have no issue with an area being collectively agreed as "undocumented" so long as it doesn't turn into an "in club" of those in the know who say a bit here and a bit there. Nods and winks and secret clubs.
If it's to stay undocumented, I'd far rather that be announced as a "thing" and have a little bit of carefully worded detail to hint at the possibilities. I guess harking back to the early Stone Country guides in Scotland, I'd not like to see something that masquerades as a topo / guide with not quite enough useful info. Far better to to have some accuracy and draw the line. Again...IMO, just speaking from my own viewpoint here)
The knowledge that it exists will always be there
true, but that is the case now anyway. You could badger Bonjoy to give you the goods....
It's an uneasy feeling releasing info on somewhere undocumented. On the one hand you think "well, might as well be us as the next person will do it anyway", on the other you have a brilliant adventure and you do somewhat take that away by giving the info. Where's the conflicted emoticon :-\
Just last month I was conversing with a guys about going to Aysen and this was his last comment:
Hey Alasdair thank you so much for all this information! It’s been incredibly helpful and Rusty and I feel like we have plenty of information to go in there and have a great time. I hope all is well on your end and will let you know how it goes! Again thank you so much for the help.
One less adventure, one more happy customer. :devangel:
-
Just seen these two videos. It looks stunning.
https://vimeo.com/68372647
https://youtu.be/ptzgmuwt6qk
The first time I climbed outdoors I went to Pex Hill. I knew there was a guide but I didn't own any guidebook yet. I picked out things that I thought I could climb and looked good and I tried them. I don't understand how that's different from somebody going to Grinah without looking at a guide.
It's also interesting that the two videos show people climbing much the same problems. They're obvious, natural lines, and there are signs of traffic on other boulders. It was hinted that the idea that the problems might be previously unclimbed was important to making a visit special. These people obviously didn't think they were new problems and surely anybody who goes does so on the understanding that it's one of those everything-was-done-years-ago sort of places? Whether the problems have been climbed before isn't the issue because everyone knows they have.
-
Great thread, Yule Grinah.
-
Then again 'Dog biscuit' seems like quite a popular option.
As it should be. It's gotta be a good place for dogs up there given the walk.
The very same walk that has precluded me having much of a viewpoint on this topic although it is an interesting debate. I quite like JB's idea of describing it in poem form, I fucking hate almost all poetry so that could be a good way to sum it all up.
-
Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.
-
It was your language rather than the action of climbing development that I labelled as ‘somewhat colonialist’. If you like you can replace colonialist with extractivist or capitalist 😄
-
Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.
You can say that in the Uk. It really doesn't apply in a lot of the world.
-
Yule Grinah.
The argument is over. Documentation is now vital so that someone can use this name.
-
Thank you for bumping this thread because it gives me an excuse to moan about something that is semi off-topic.
Please can people stop comparing rock climbing development with colonialism? It brings to mind anti-vaxxers talking about Kristallnacht. There is no equivalence between people documenting climbing and the subjugation of entire populations.
It beggars belief it even needs saying.
You can say that in the Uk. It really doesn't apply in a lot of the world.
The walk in to Grinah must be further than I thought.
-
This has been a great thread. Good to see where opinions lie on a venue far from the road.
There seems to be many slightly different tangents to the debate. From my perspective i'd say it can boil down to: BonJoy has done a one man development job in the peak for 20+ years and has finally arrived at thinking of Grinah seriously. Does the climbing community want to benefit from the fact that he can be arsed to clean and write things up properly or do we veto it for now. Of course my faith in Bonjoys ability to climb somewhere and not do a good job of cleaning and mentally logging climbs if only in his own head is very low. So if Bonjoy climbs there, things will get mentally logged, tips and knowledge can be given to his mates. To enforce some sort of radio silence on days out there just isnt going to happen 100%
By not writing Grinah up it will always be an artificial wilderness. To me this is an interesting concept. Is it to be a my first unguided experience for climbers who want to fool themselves as to what true exploration is? Does it preserve the magic of discovery? whilst simultaneously knowing it to be a falsehood. Its only really far from the road because there are so many peak crags nearer, by the Iain Small walk in grading its basically roadside. so i guess its the fact that its more superfluous to the community that its been treated in such a way, if it were the first option from sheffield then i'd imagine it'd have a much more important role in the fabric of the sport.
When there is actually a crap tonne of new venues to find and explore in the UK (albeit further North) i'd much rather help educate climbers who want to genuinely explore. To run round the quiet side of Chonc a Ghille on Mull, cycling into Fisherfield forest with a pad. Fighting through conifer branches in Arrochar to discover 20m long boulders of steep schist. All are sat there waiting to be truly discovered. For the last 5 years i've been dead to climbing because i've been developing climbing in a forest that is the size of the dark peak and almost devoid of any major habitation and none of the crags are "venues" a totally manmade landscape devoid of humans. I sit scanning satellite images, watch boring walking vlog youtube vids and pour over different types and scale of map. I do all this selfishly to just find fun stuff nearby to satisfy my hobby. I'm not paid and so i'm pretty shit at writing stuff up as i'm too busy. So it can wait, but i've got more hard lines on the list now than i ever had in the old county so i'm happy the inspiration coffers are full, I realise lots of people would love to see topos for these venues but just treat them like grinah for now... as currently you have no choice the scale of the write up is too large.
Bonjoy, IMO, is pretty good at writing stuff up (until peakbouldering died anyway) He's not Chapman level of write up skill but he's pretty good. Writing lots of stuff up is a real skill and it does take an enormous amount of effort. I'd imagine Grimer's post has a lot of truth in it.
I hugely appreciate the work unknown stones have done in yorkshire, its lead to me having some great days out in areas that would've taken quite a bit of finding. Crags like Wolfrey, Ash head and cow close have really been brought to the fore
I'm entrigued to see what happens with Grinah. It makes no real odds to me, i know Bonjoy is a text away from "hey John, any good tricky fodder up at grinah?" In the same way that if he was off to Kielder the reverse text might happen and i could point him at a load of stuff thats crap to walk into but amazing to climb on.
personally i'm voting "yes" let the person who could actually be arsed to write the crag up write it up if he wants as he's been the main concrete in the peak bonding both old and new venues together in the last couple of decades 99% of which has been of positive benefit for the local climbers and If its time for Grinah to transfer to a written up venue from a non written up one then thats just the written progression of the sport IMO.
Of course there's a good debate to be had as to whether writing up venues kills magic. A good bunch of heads to ask are people who have experience on climbing in large venues that remain unwritten. The Frankenjura bouldering scene thrives but is entirely unwritten and arguably fairly elitist, word of mouth and connections are paramount there. If Grinah is to be kept as a word of mouth venue so be it, but dont sell the excuse as true exploration or wilderness style climbing, it'd be holding back the ink with a dam of blissful ignorance at best. true exploration is brilliant but also really crap and hard work in equal amounts. Fruitless days spent in wet bogs and woods are somewhat different to just rocking up to a guaranteed crag with decent boulders that isn't written up. Is it a sad day if all the peaks rocks end up written up? Yes i guess that is too.
-
Interesting points Dan. My argument for the retention of pseudo-explorative areas in the Peak is that it's readily accessible for a lot of people. Not all of us are lucky enough to live on the edge of a plantation full of boulders, or an hour's drive from the entrance to Fisherfield... it gives a taste, a spark of the joys of exploring rock, which could then very well go one of two ways, "this isn't for me," or, "I want more". For me the exploration is very much part of the fun (who doesn't love going knee deep in a bog, impaling oneself on spruce branch, or startling a deer that nearly vaults into you, only to find that immaculate-looking wall is covered in flakes of rotting mica), but is it for everyone? Definitely not, but some of the wonder of that experience can be had by finding your own way around a place, climbing what looks good, and not constantly having to avoid the temptation to check what you're about to do, what you just did, is a 3-star UKC ticklist classic.
-
Just when you think that the Longest Paragraph of 2021 Award is done and dusted, along come two posts that blow the whole thing wide open again.
-
Soz
-
Lol, another great brain dump from Varian. Can't be arsed to write up Kielder but I daresay he'd soon find the energy to quash any retroclaims. But a powerful last line. For me Grinah is about an alternative to this one-upmanship that has become so central to the sport. Not for everywhere or everyone, just one obscure hard to reach venue where the history is already beyond untangling.
We can claim we develop and write stuff up as a gift to the community, but it isn't seperable from the massive ego trip of naming and claiming. We all love the movement sure, but I've never climbed with anyone who doesn't get a massive motivational boost from the chance of a first ascent, and it's 99.9% from the chance of ownership. This is why people use the word colonialism, it is planting your flag and claiming that bit of rock, albeit only in one subculture and with no natives displaced, but micro-colonialism for the talented with diminishing returns for the punters.
I found it a unique experience to climb somewhere where that possibility was closed. It wasn't about assuming/ pretending that everything had been done or not been done, just that in this place that potential for ownership - whether by the tick of a repeat or the glory of the FA - wasn't available. Along with no info on what to climb it did make for a very diiferent experience, one that forced me to reassess why I climbed in a way that's never happened anywhere else.
I think it's worth preserving. It's not the same as going to Torridon as most of us would claim anything significant or at least be unable to point out any retroclaims were not FAs. The ego is still, if not quite in the driving seat, at least sat in the back and whispering sweet nothings.
-
I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage. I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
-
:wave:
-
I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage.
Having had a second hand lecture from the Glossop crew years before work on Over the moors begun, I think Grimer's point is characteristically glib and shouldn't be taken too seriously. The ethic isn't spelt out so clearly in the 80s Kinder guide but my understanding is that it was already established. And otoh they did write up all sorts of shit to the extent some didn't fit in the guide and was made available via pdf. So I think his take needs a large pinch of salt.
I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?
Anyone keen to claim a problem should be forced to submit a haiku instead, which is then assigned randomly to a different bit of rock.
-
Anyone keen to claim a problem should be forced to submit a haiku instead, which is then assigned randomly to a different bit of rock.
:clap2:
The perfect solution.
-
When I was doing the grit guides I climbed lots of problems that had never been documented. I had never known of anyone doing and had no signs of having ever been climbed before.
I'd just name and grade them, never claim them. I bet a lot of them were first ascents. Many of them are really good problems.
I kinda wish now I had claimed them. But not so bothered.
This point is of little relevance.
But at least I'm using very short paragraphs.
Right?
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
Me too, although only once. I'd like it to stay undocumented for the reason Johnny Brown described (not the haiku's, the opportunity to subvert the ticking / collecting experience).
I wouldn't have a problem with light-handed documentation in principle, but I think that even the slightest partial documentation would break the seal and lead to fuller documentation.
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
I haven't been there.
-
I think I was conflating Grinah Stones and Woolpacks in my chin stroking. Turns out the rock is good and leaving it out of the guide was more convenience/exhaustion, I quite like that all this handwringing is more about the guidebook team collectively reaching the ‘sod it’ stage. I’m intrigued to take a look and quite like the idea of doing it without the temptation to prior knowledge the heck out of the experience. I pay far too much attention to guides, logbooks, etc. Perhaps a small collection of haikus?
I must have dreamt the Peak area meeting where it became obvious Rockfax were putting both venues into a bouldering guide and a subsequent meet where a change of mind happened on Grinah. I was much more worried about Woolpacks as under the scrittle up there was more scrittle, if much paler..... and on a venue right next to the Pennine way, such that we might get backlash for no worthwhile bouldering gain. The summer white tracks and pale scrittly scars bear tribute to this egotism and piss off regular walkers and niche photographers alike.
I'm not sure about Grinah Stones, I guess I'd go with concensus but do like the romanticism of a high quality place you have to explore 'guidebookless'. If the concensus was some form of guide I'd certainly trust bonjoy to do his usual excellent stuff. However, once 'the genie is out of the bottle' I can't see any going back... any idea of a light touch guide will soon go, with compulsive UKC recorders and loggers. I also remember how Marc C and others tried to avoid a public topo on Blackstone and failed but there are a few other less good places on the moors I do know that did stay out of the public view (and we promised to respect that and did).
Having worked on OtM, pretty closely with Martin, there was no 'sod it' stage, as such, there was an end point (and a bit too much pressure for final editing.... a team of us cleared a thousand mistakes in a day at BMC HQ but still missed some that led to stern letters from an ex editor). Any venues not fully covered or left out of OtM were always done so because of choice, even to the point some friendships suffered as a result (the book would have been two volumes if the local obscurists had had their way.)...... some of which has been published in pdfs and even a new book almost no-one will buy. OtM remains a masterwork in my view.
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
Me, fwiw.
Get up about four or five times a year when time off and decent weather coincide. Usually come in from the North (park off the Woodhead - Fidlers Flat) via Lady's Cross - decent trod and very little climb.
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
Yep. Multiple visits, last one about 20 years ago though.
-
I had my first trip up this autumn with Bonjoy, Bonjoy Jr and 3 of the Matlock B team so had the benefits of both a big team and the knowledge.
I thought it was pretty decent and would deffo go back with a similar set up.
-
Really interesting to follow this thread as someone who develops bouldering well away from the madding crowds of the Peak. From an information point of view the area I mostly operate in (Exmoor Coast) has (since the late 80s) totally fallen off the rock climbing guide book radar, it is never going to suffer from too much traffic, the majority of venues take effort to get to and from, conditions can be very fickle and most of the venues are affected by the tide (limiting the time you can access them). Exmoor is so out of the way and the nearby climbing population is tiny; there are no concerns that the masses will descend here if someone lifts the lid on an 'amazing venue'. ..... and yet there are protagonists in the locale that got pissed when I did the now completely out of date guide for Lynmouth. The gist being that it should all be left to allow others the experience of exploration. On the other hand Terry Cheek (the first to complete a dry ascent of the Exmoor Coast Traverse) encouraged publishing information and promoting 'our sport'.
Well the outcome of producing a very basic guide and holding a 'meet' 15 years ago is that every now and then I might bump into a boulderer down here on holiday enjoying the delights of Lynmouth and some very enthusiastic local youngsters are exploring/ developing more. Having recently been in touch with Martin Crocker, it was amazing to discover that he had been bouldering regularly on Exmoor from the late 90s onwards. Hopefully, we can collate and share more info. on other venues in due course. As has been mentioned above the effort it takes to efficiently record and write stuff up should be appreciated because it is easy enough to not be arsed!
Of course the context is completely different for the Peak, the surrounding population of climbers is dense ( do both meanings apply ?) and the pressure on the environment/rock is big. The last time I visited Burbage South :'( I was shocked at the state of the ground between the boulders; I had fond memories of boulders surrounded by meadow not a quagmire. A 'busy' day at the plantation these days is a very different to a 'busy' day at the plantation in the 90s.
I love the bouldering where I live now because it is wild, it is fickle, it is difficult and takes effort to get to, there is still loads to explore/discover, it is quiet and climbers have little to no impact. Even with detailed guides Exmoor is very unlikely to change. However, there are still venues I am unlikely to document because they are more suited to exploring and climbing what looks good on the day. This and the fact that the beach levels can vary from lowball above soft sand to highball above leg snapping boulders in the space of a day. To be able to have a similar experience in the Peak, I think, is of great value.. I reckon the Peak could do with a venue that's not for folk that are only interested in something they can log, that is easy to get to, that doesn't need brushing before climbing and that can't see a line themselves in order to attempt climbing it. Whether by luck or good judgement this venue seems to fit the bill so maybe it should maintain that status (you can't turn back once the logging starts).
(edited:coz the last bit made no sense).
-
You can easily write guides without claiming FA's, the entire lakes bouldering guide has no record in of who did what as does the northumberland bouldering and scotland guides. 10 years ago I'd maybe have been hot on the retro claim but nowadays if i cant be arsed to write it up and someone gets there before me i dont dip my oar back in and would be genuinely be thankful if someone wrote up the areas i dont have time for. I've had a few people ask for info about what i've done around coruisk this past year and all i've been able to do is point out boulders that are good to climb on, i know i did lots of boulders there but i cant write a topo for it, explorers privelege doesn't have to be full of ego if its only ever shared with the company at the time, its going to be hard to keep totally silent without looking antisocial.
i can fully appreciate the debate. Sort of seems like preserving the last peak dodo when everyone on here has eaten the rest of them (by using guides) I mean not documenting Eats wood might have been a decent idea hey? but then again for access sensitive venues its hard to prove what we as a community have lost if nothing is ever written up. It also tends to get branded as elitist over time, i mean i've literally had an article about me being an elitist form the old limestone cowboys topo days when access was very uncertain around griffs, badger etc. I've since helped write them up for the BMC guide and it seems like a lot more people enjoy those venues now than before.
I just find the situation odd as its bouldering at its freest for sure but ultimately if its a well travelled area then its all going to rely on a degree of self deception. Personally i'd be up for it if all of bouldering went in that direction nowadays as well where people just went out for a climb and it doesn't matter what its called or how hard it is. 90% of my own climbing is in that realm not by choice. I do tend to mentally log how tricky something is once i've done it, once that process is done the development wedge is created. so its only by keeping quiet on already clean rock with perfect landings that an area can be truly preserved in a leave no trace manner. Does that venue exist? no one should be able to answer that really or it would cease to. I guess thats my point, it feels like the artificial radio silence will gradually be eroded, i bet even this thread has shot it up peoples radar.
I can sit here and watch videos of people climbing there and get huge amounts more info on how to climb stuff at Grinah, much more than say a random esoteric page in the 7+8s guide. To me its videos and beta watching in front of problems that kill the magic in the sport that people are discussing here. more than writing up venues does. Its also pretty easy to video climbs compared to writing topos so that should really be a no no up there too if the vote swings that way. If it does then its a cool experiment and i'd be fascinated to see how it develops.
-
I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet) and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.
This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.
“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,
from the perpendiculars,
straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends
of sight:
I allow myself eddies of meaning:
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:
you can find
in my sayings
swerves of action
like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:
but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:
in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of
primrose
more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:
I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
from outside: I have
drawn no lines.
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
:wave:
and various others in the two videos posted earlier are current or past UKB regulars.
-
I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet) and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.
This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.
“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,
from the perpendiculars,
straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends
of sight:
I allow myself eddies of meaning:
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:
you can find
in my sayings
swerves of action
like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:
but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:
in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of
primrose
more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:
I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
from outside: I have
drawn no lines.
Wonderful Ben, both for this thread and simply in itself. Reminds me a lot of the tone of the poems in Theodore Roethke's "North American Sequence." (No, it's not about beta).
-
I've been but not for years. I'm in the not document camp. Although, I'm not exactly sure why and can see the other side of the arguement.
I guess I enjoyed my visit and would like to be able to go back and have a similar experience.
-
So, who from the UKB collective has actually climbed there? So far, I can count Bonjoy, Grimer, JB, Cofe, Andy Popp, me, Jacqusie (?), Teaboy (?) anyone else?
:wave:
and various others in the two videos posted earlier are current or past UKB regulars.
I've been up there a couple of times, with (ex-)UKBers Nan, leeroy, gritlad, Franco (!), and on both occasions visiting climbers from Europe! It's a such a lovely spot, what you imagine grit crags to be, ie more like wild North Yorkshire moorland rather than battered Burbage. Hence why I like taking visiting wads there.
I agree with keeping it undocumented. It's either a mega long walk from the Woodhead, or a bit of a logistical challenge from the reserviour road (unless you are lucky enough to be able to go midweek), which definately adds to the exploratory feel. A good day up there feels more like mountaineering than bouldering.
How you keep it undocumented in the modern age though I don't know, when it's all too easy for a insta vid to pop up "great new 7B highball at Grinah" etc, which to some extent has already happened with the two linked videos :guilty: Can't exactly stop people posting about their experiences, but as carlilse slapper says, perhaps video beta takes more away from the experience than documentation does. I suspect over time it will tend towards being documented, with the odd video, photos online, emails sent, etc etc The first rule of Grinah club...
Must get back up there this year
-
Worth bearing in mind when surveying those who have actually been that the group is self-selecting. It shouldn't be a surprise that there is a preference for leaving undocumented because they are those who have been in spite of all the obstacles.
-
I read this poem a couple of hours ago. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43073/corsons-inlet) and thought it was worth sharing in full. It’s called Corsons Inlet by Archibald Randolph (A.R.) Ammons.
This stanza jumped out and made me think of this thread. The boldface is mine.
“the walk liberating, I was released from forms,
from the perpendiculars,
straight lines, blocks, boxes, binds
of thought
into the hues, shadings, rises, flowing bends and blends
of sight:
I allow myself eddies of meaning:
yield to a direction of significance
running
like a stream through the geography of my work:
you can find
in my sayings
swerves of action
like the inlet’s cutting
edge:
there are dunes of motion,
organizations of grass, white sandy paths of remembrance
in the overall wandering of mirroring mind:
but Overall is beyond me: is the sum of these events
I cannot draw, the ledger I cannot keep, the accounting
beyond the account:
in nature there are few sharp lines: there are areas of
primrose
more or less dispersed;
disorderly orders of bayberry; between the rows
of dunes,
irregular swamps of reeds,
though not reeds alone, but grass, bayberry, yarrow, all ...
predominantly reeds:
I have reached no conclusions, have erected no boundaries,
shutting out and shutting in, separating inside
from outside: I have
drawn no lines.
Wonderful Ben, both for this thread and simply in itself. Reminds me a lot of the tone of the poems in Theodore Roethke's
Yes, that is wonderful. Amazing. Thank you Mr. Ben ;)
And "North American Sequence." (No, it's not about beta). :lol: Very funny ;D
Edit. Of course "disorderly orders" is the dilemma here isn't it, that Bonjoy is trying to wrestle with. You've only got to thank him really, for bringing this to our attention. I've never been to Grinah. From what I'd heard, it was something similar to the Woolpacks on Kinder. The walk in doesn't sound excessive compared to other summer crags.
Or: "..grasps of disorder, widening
scope, but enjoying the freedom.."
-
If you study a map it is about the most remote spot in the Peak. Unlike the Woolpacks the rock is good and very few walkers pass anywhere near. The walk in probably longer than any in the Peak but nothing compared to many mountain crags. I think you'd like it Dave.
-
Hey JB. Hope all's good :2thumbsup:
I think you might be right.
Well worth the walk and some soloing around.
I don't know where my comparison came from. I think I may have been talking to you a few years ago. I vaguely remember that, something about keeping the secret :lol:
Props to BJ for documenting stuff :clap2:
-
This topic should be revisited. I personally don’t agree with not documenting Grinah. There are so many amazing lines there, and so much left to do that it’s a total waste for it to remain a scrittley mess.
It’s not exactly going to become the new Stanage Plantation with its 2 hour approach and having some proper documentation means people can go and know what’s there. I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?
-
55.5% were in favour of documentation. If and how anyone runs with that :shrug:...
-
I think if, hypothetically, one was to go ahead and document it, the current status quo would be best respected by not giving first ascent details in any miniguide and ideally not bother with names either, or go with purely descriptive names, eg. big arete, overhanging prow, central slab, right arete etc etc.
To me that would strike a good balance between documentation and respecting its current status as a wild space away from the green tick insta bollocks that bouldering can become.
-
I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.
-
I think it being a bit confusing is fine, thats kind of the point and what marks it out as different. As long as stuff is logically described left to right I think it would be fine. For me its a very small step from giving stuff overblown names to people adding FA details, which then leads to retroclaims and all of a sudden its a bunfight. You can also just name individual boulders and then give problems simply numbers.
-
I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?
Gatekeeping would suggest trying to bar or dissuade participation. That doesn’t seem to be the case here, rather leaving one crag where a different experience of bouldering can be had.
-
I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.
Personally I think this would be a shame, for all the reasons previously discussed in this thread. I like a bit of documenting (https://climbing-history.org/) as much as the next person but if everything is documented I think we lose something, and the peak is about as heavily documented as climbing gets.
-
I thought this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways. Also there’s already a load of videos out there of the problems that have been established so what’s the point in not having stuff documented properly on UKC?
Gatekeeping would suggest trying to bar or dissuade participation. That doesn’t seem to be the case here, rather leaving one crag where a different experience of bouldering can be had.
It depends on who’s post you read but some of them read as very gatekeepy. Also it’s a bit of a fake experience seeing as there’s already videos and information out there circulating, it’s not like you’ve randomly walked two hours in a direction and found some cool boulders, you’re going there specifically to climb. Also if you wish to have that experience you can always just not read the topo?
-
I’m gonna go ahead and write up a public guide at some point soon but I agree that no FA name convention is the way to go, having actual problem names could be useful though as there’s about 50 arêtes there so could become confusing.
Personally I think this would be a shame, for all the reasons previously discussed in this thread. I like a bit of documenting (https://climbing-history.org/) as much as the next person but if everything is documented I think we lose something, and the peak is about as heavily documented as climbing gets.
whilst I fully respect your opinion remus I sadly don’t agree with it. We lose nothing and gain quite a bit by documenting this incredible crag, and as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority would prefer some kind of documentation.
-
Also it’s a bit of a fake experience seeing as there’s already videos and information out there circulating, it’s not like you’ve randomly walked two hours in a direction and found some cool boulders, you’re going there specifically to climb. Also if you wish to have that experience you can always just not read the topo?
I think it's fun to have a venue where there's not a lot of info available because it's something different to the other climbing available in the peak, so I'd like to minimise the amount of info rather than turning it in to the next pinches wall. Saying you can just not look at the topo is like saying to trad climbers "just don't clip the bolts". Once the info is available it'll change the experience.
-
I think if, hypothetically, one was to go ahead and document it, the current status quo would be best respected by not giving first ascent details in any miniguide and ideally not bother with names either, or go with purely descriptive names, eg. big arete, overhanging prow, central slab, right arete etc etc.
To me that would strike a good balance between documentation and respecting its current status as a wild space away from the green tick insta bollocks that bouldering can become.
I can empathise with the wish to keep somewhere wild and untravelled. Years ago, when visiting Canada, We thought it would be great to go to Wood Buffalo NP since that was where TV programs about wildlife seemed to be set. But it is impossible for punters like us to visit. Instead we went to Jasper and Banff. Those are the complete opposite in terms of every effort having being made to be accessible to everyone (not just reluctant walkers such as my other half but also wheel chair users etc). I thought the Canadians had it right in setting things up with two accessibility extremes rather than a half-way house.
I guess I'm trying to explain why I think SpiderMonkey's half-way seems worse to me than either extreme. No one has to look at insta and get upset by that. If it is going to be on UKC, I'd favour going all out, making up fun, memorable, names for things and giving grades etc.
-
What about names but no grades and no FA details ?
-
Perhaps, put them up on UKC with photos, videos, topos etc and say people have three months to come forward and name them if they are problems that were familiar to them from the past or whatever. After then, whoever is bothering to do the documentation should feel free to invent names willy-nilly IMO.
But like I said, I can also empathise with those wanting zero documentation or mentioning of them etc.
-
as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority
While I agree with the idea of documenting in some form, I don't think that a poll in which 'dog biscuit' received almost 10% of the votes can be used as evidence that documenting is the will of the people.
I agree with Moo/spidermonkey; if it's to be done it should be done in a way that provides the bare minimum of ego/Insta-bait. To that end avoiding Font/V grades would be good, but I see the value in providing some info on relative difficulty. Maybe a good place to resurrect B grades?
-
Stone - have you been there?
It makes me chuckle that people describe the Grinah Stones as this mythical ‘wild’ place. You walk through forestry commission plantation, then up a massive track past grouse shooting butts before crossing a patchwork of managed moorland.
I was up there again this June with my eldest son camping and it was flippin freezing. The number of days you could actually boulder up there given it’s incredibly exposed are very small in reality.
I think I voted for documentation as I’m not concerned about the environmental impact a guidebook would have. Unless you go midweek you need to cycle up the reservoirs with a pad on your back, then do the walk in.
-
Plan is to write up and update as much stuff that’s been done, give boulders name and a grade but no FA information. Keep it an open forum so if people want to rename their FAs they can step up and request it.
-
I think I walked past them years ago but I've never bouldered there. I don't personally care about them being kept relatively inaccessible. I'm just saying that I can see where people who want that are coming from. I guess it is a bit like how I don't like dogs nor off-road motorbikes but I want people who do like those to be accommodated to a fair extent.
-
Sure this point was made before, but it already is documented.
As in, the venue's existence, where it is, how to get to it, what it's like, etc. are all thoroughly detailed in the BMC RAD and on UKC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/rad/view.aspx?id=3163
Whilst it also features with a similar write up in the Over the Moors guidebook.
So to address the "gatekeeping" accusation, the venue is both as well publicised (in non-social media channels) as any other and, once they're aware of it if people want to go there, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. In fact, you have loads of information to go on to get you there. There are even now a few tantalising social media posts, but the less of those the better.
But for some reason people still don't go very much. Obviously a big part of that is the location, but the other problem then is surely one of ego. As in, people don't want to go without knowing there is problem X at grade Y on which they can demonstrate their climbing prowess. And I think the exclusion of that approach is worth preserving, if only at this one place. Especially when you consider that by all accounts, it's a big venue with something for literally all abilities.
Carlos - I remember previous discussions on here under your old username where you were encouraged to consider your approach to sharing on social media, and to putting up FAs. I note you've now deleted your Instagram account, and recently said you're happier without it. Perhaps, before you unilaterally decide to trample over years of established tradition against the wishes of a large slice of the community, you could consider whether the same thought process might be applied here.
this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways.
So what you mean by "this should be revisited" is really, "I think you're all wrong and I'm going to do it anyway because I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it".
And honestly, if that's your attitude I think you're worse and more selfish than any gatekeeper.
-
Sure this point was made before, but it already is documented.
As in, the venue's existence, where it is, how to get to it, what it's like, etc. are all thoroughly detailed in the BMC RAD and on UKC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/rad/view.aspx?id=3163
Whilst it also features with a similar write up in the Over the Moors guidebook.
So to address the "gatekeeping" accusation, the venue is both as well publicised (in non-social media channels) as any other and, once they're aware of it if people want to go there, there is absolutely nothing stopping them. In fact, you have loads of information to go on to get you there. There are even now a few tantalising social media posts, but the less of those the better.
But for some reason people still don't go very much. Obviously a big part of that is the location, but the other problem then is surely one of ego. As in, people don't want to go without knowing there is problem X at grade Y on which they can demonstrate their climbing prowess. And I think the exclusion of that approach is worth preserving, if only at this one place. Especially when you consider that by all accounts, it's a big venue with something for literally all abilities.
Carlos - I remember previous discussions on here under your old username where you were encouraged to consider your approach to sharing on social media, and to putting up FAs. I note you've now deleted your Instagram account, and recently said you're happier without it. Perhaps, before you unilaterally decide to trample over years of established tradition against the wishes of a large slice of the community, you could consider whether the same thought process might be applied here.
this thread felt super gatekeepy and to be honest there’s nothing stoping a group of us saying fuck that and documenting it anyways.
So what you mean by "this should be revisited" is really, "I think you're all wrong and I'm going to do it anyway because I'm right, you're wrong and there's nothing you can do about it".
And honestly, if that's your attitude I think you're worse and more selfish than any gatekeeper.
A large slice of the community being 30 people? :lol:
I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!
Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!
-
whilst I fully respect your opinion remus I sadly don’t agree with it. We lose nothing and gain quite a bit by documenting this incredible crag, and as has been voted by members on this thread it seems a majority would prefer some kind of documentation.
Couple of assumptions in the above that I don't agree with. First, you're assuming that all the people who voted for partial documentation agree with your proposed version of partial documentation - we've already seen what having a referendum without properly defining the end points can lead to. Second, you're assuming that this forum is representative of the wider climbing community - why do we get to decide?
If it does end up being documented, then I'm with Droyd on resurrecting the B grade (the John Gill version, not the ill-fated Peak Bouldering Rockfax one).
-
Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?
-
There seems to me a lot of contradiction in how people welcomed the "best of 2023" thread on here and yet want to stamp out "insta green tick bollox" etc.
Due to some bizarre IT screw up on my part I can't view instagram. But isn't it just publicly enthusing and sharing about climbing etc just as with the "best of 2023" thread on here? Perhaps it is engineered to be more addictive and some people feel they are best rid of it because of that. That makes sense but I think it for everyone to make their own minds up about how or if they use it.
All communication about climbing causes people to visit new places and climb differently from how they otherwise would have done. It just makes them aware of new possibilities. They are still free to stick with their old ways and places if they so choose.
-
Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??
-
Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?
Might want to add ''very hard severe' on the end if we need a bit more room, then if that doesn't give enough separation we could add 'Extreme', and in the unlikely event that doesn't work we could break that down further in to Extreme 1, Extreme 2, etc.
-
A large slice of the community being 30 people? :lol:
I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!
Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?
Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!
I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.
Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?
As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.
-
Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??
Grinah is already extensively documented including names of all the boulders and areas of the crag, unfinished projects with their perceived difficulty, it’s just not public?
-
Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?
I don't care either way and this is already shaping up to be an elite thread, but the obvious retort to this is who gave the original instigators of the policy the 'right' to insist on it being undocumented? Surely that policy is shit for people who hold a different perspective?
-
A large slice of the community being 30 people? :lol:
I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!
Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?
Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!
I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.
Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?
As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.
This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?
This isn’t like discussions around retro bolting trad, or doing things in a weird style, this is a more metaphysical discussion surrounding ethics of documenting which if like you say, grinah is already very well documented and like I said, the boulders themselves are well documented, then is really a moot point other than keeping that information as obscure as possible.
-
I suspect the main appeal to Grinnah is turning up and just climbing what looks good with no knowledge of how hard it is. So if it's to be written up, I think grading or even having easy, medium, hard descriptions is unnecessary. The guide should simply be a source of inspiration for people to make the trip up, showing lots of nice inspiring photos of the boulders and people climbing on them, descriptions of where the lines go and any essential info. I don't think naming them is an issue (i'd probably favour vague names as proposed by SM but I have no strong feelings on this) but it seems critical that describing the difficulty should be avoided.
Personally, I can't be arsed to go up there at the moment as there's a million cool things I want to climb already, but if I saw a photo of someone climbing an amazing highball arete, i'd be much more tempted and part of the excitement would be finding out whether it's 6A or 9A by trying it.
-
Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?
I don't care either way and this is already shaping up to be an elite thread, but the obvious retort to this is who gave the original instigators of the policy the 'right' to insist on it being undocumented? Surely that policy is shit for people who hold a different perspective?
I suspect the difference there is it won't have been any one person, it'll have built over a period of time where someone went, didn't write anything up. Then someone else went and did the same. And so it goes, building over time with each new visitor until it becomes the norm. Because each of those visitors discovered and recognised the incredible unique value in having just one place like it.
-
A large slice of the community being 30 people? :lol:
I just think it’s outdated, we’ll never agree and that’s fine too Nick. But in my opinion it should be documented, and I know a lot of other people also agree!
Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to go ahead and do it anyway. Can you not see how that's really shit for everyone who holds a different perspective?
Also not sure why you’re bringing up my past when it has no bearing on this. I’m not looking to share anything on social media, I just want people to have access to information regarding what’s there? Thanks for the dig though!
I think it's highly relevant. In both cases, you're approaching an aspect of climbing in a certain way and others are thoughtfully suggesting that there is a better, more fulfilling, more satisfying way of doing it.
Could just go with easy, medium, hard, very hard?
As I said before, the venue is already thoroughly documented in terms of access, location, getting there, etc. Surely then on arrival any climber with half a brain and a little experience will be able to tell for themselves what will be easy, medium, hard or very hard. So why have it written down? It serves literally no purpose.
This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?
This isn’t like discussions around retro bolting trad, or doing things in a weird style, this is a more metaphysical discussion surrounding ethics of documenting which if like you say, grinah is already very well documented and like I said, the boulders themselves are well documented, then is really a moot point other than keeping that information as obscure as possible.
Because keeping it obscure preserves a little bit of something some people find special, it preserves an experience some people like, and it’s one of the few extensive, good places where this is the case. It’s a finite resource and it can be really rewarding, I suspect the reason varian isn’t releasing topo after topo of whatever he’s been upto in the kielder area for the last few years is to preserve his special experience’s for other people to enjoy. Can’t some places be left as they are? If it’s all collated in one place it will end up in a guidebook…. Could rockfax resist? For me and many others that would be a bit sad. Does literally everything have to be easy? There are no gatekeepers if you wanna find it all out it’s there, it just takes a bit of finding. Does it have to be at the top of a Google search??
-
This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?
I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.
And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.
-
I suspect the main appeal to Grinnah is turning up and just climbing what looks good with no knowledge of how hard it is.
This is the argument but why not extend this to every crag?
People really need to go to Grinah and they might find they take a different view. It’s not an edge or a nicely laid out boulder field. It’s a right old jumble. Maybe it appeals if you’ve got a big team and a full day for a once in a decade visit, but if a couple of you head up there it’s actually quite difficult to identify the best things to climb on.
-
There seems to me a lot of contradiction in how people welcomed the "best of 2023" thread on here and yet want to stamp out "insta green tick bollox" etc.
To my mind the difference between the UKB 'best of year' threads and Instagram is that the former rewards depth and nuance and honesty, and the latter surface-level engagement and big numbers. This is because the UKB posts that 'do well' (the ones that I enjoy reading and others do too, based on replies and so on) are the ones that present not just 'achievements' but the context around them, whereas the way Instagram is set up actively discourages the inclusion of text with posts and makes follow-up discussion quite confusing (comment threads don't seem to work very well, character limits prevent in-depth discussion). This leads to the 'Problem name + grade + green-tick emoji' formula being dominant, which means less depth and nuance and honesty and more mindless consumption. In my mind there's a clear link between this commodification of problems and poor behaviour such as climbing on wet rock and not paying attention to access issues, all of which has a negative impact on climbing (and would completely ruin what people see as being special about Grinah).
However obviously I would think all of this because what I do is right and good and what other people do is bad and terrible. I think it's an interesting discussion to have as I'm sure I'm being a massive hypocrite in many ways, but this probably isn't the thread for it.
-
If any of your mates put a green tick on Insta just comment the following: "Green tick wanker. Embarrassing". I've managed to stop a few of my mates from doing it so far ;D
-
What Bradders said.
-
This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?
I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.
And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.
Really weird take, just because something is tradition doesn’t mean it’s correct or worth upholding. Sometimes the opposite is needed, again these are all personal ethical standpoints.
-
Completely off topic.
But. It’s a great start 2024 where a massive thread is about bouldering / climbing on a climbing forum. :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
Hope 2024 stays this way.
Less of the divisive non climbing threads please. :worms:
-
This is you basically saying your approach is right and mine isn’t though, how is that any different? We just hold opposing perspectives but it doesn’t mean either is right or wrong?
I wouldn't have chosen not to document it if I'd been the first to go up there. That isn't my approach. But given others have established it here, and as I say that's been a developed consensus over a long period of time, all I'm saying is once you unilaterally let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, so you should think very carefully about what will actually be gained by further documentation, and crucially what will be lost.
And if all you're gaining is a load of things getting named, retro-claimed and renamed, I think it's a pretty poor return.
Really weird take, just because something is tradition doesn’t mean it’s correct or worth upholding. Sometimes the opposite is needed, again these are all personal ethical standpoints.
Read my post again, that's not what I said.
I didn't say just because it's tradition it should remain as is. I said given the tradition is now firmly established, you need to carefully consider what is being gained and what is being lost by breaking it.
And, again, the loss here is very significant in my and clearly many others view.
-
Here's my hypothesis.
There's a lot of very cool climbing up there. Objectively good shit. Highball aretes on moorland's finest scrittle. People love to go and climb there because it's like Barden Fell, the gold standard of quality rock climbing.
But the crag has a dark and terrible secret. You all know what it is but you dare not speak it, you dare not utter it. You cast your eyes down and shift your weight from foot to foot. A secret unspoken can be ignored, it can be disbelieved, so let it remain unsaid.
Let me now, once and for all, unleash this eldritch horror shrieking upon the quailing masses of Sheffield. Let my words bring a new terror to The Works and the Broadfield and the School Room; hear me now, Peakies, and despair!
The climbs are easy.
Yes, that's right. Almost all of the climbing at Grinah Stones is between Font 4 and Font 6C+.
Now, with this dreadful knowledge weighing leaden in your breast, which of you will walk the two hours of unpathed moor to climb there? That's right, none of you. Because who ever looked through a guidebook and went to a crag with nothing difficult to do? Nobody from Sheffield, that's for sure.
My hypothesis: Grinah Stones has not been documented because doing so would suck all the enjoyment out of the crag. Undocumented, you can tell your mates that you went to Grinah and did some great climbs; documented, you'd have to say that you walked two hours to climb some Font 6s and thus suffer permanent excommunication. It's that simple.
-
Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?
And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.
-
To my mind the difference between the UKB 'best of year' threads and Instagram is that the former rewards depth and nuance and honesty, and the latter surface-level engagement and big numbers.
Thanks, that's a great explanation. That was also what I most liked about other peoples' entries on that thread -their descriptions of their experiences on and around each climb.
-
So it's already documented then?
:tumble:
(Personally I'm in favour of documentation but understand that there's a muddleheaded argument against documentation and that publishing a topo would be an extinction event for that side of the argument i.e. the impact would be irreversible.)
-
If it's already documented but the existence of the document is semi on the down-low, why not just keep it like that? Makes it easy to ignore the existence of some documentation for those that want, and those that really want to find out the info will hunt around for the topo?
Plenty of Euro sport crags that are "documented" but that you won't find in a guide or online without going to some effort...
-
Took the words right out of my mouth, Barrows. Anyone who wants to the document can probably find it with enough sleuthing (and if you're gonna put in the effort to walk in you'd obviously be willing to dig for the guide), and people who don't are very unlikely to stumble upon it and have their sense of exploration and adventure tarnished.
I've only been up the once, May 2022, and honestly a lot of the fun for me was throwing the pads down upon arrival and just running around going "fucking hell look at that!", "what a line!", etc. Appetite whetted by the few pics and videos I'd found, but not tarnished by a full guide leading me directly to whichever 7B I'd already decided was my goal the night before.
It's like walking vs. driving, you take in so much more at a slower pace, looking in all the nooks and crannies, and I think Grinah is just that sort of place for it. If the pdf was published I'd look at it because I'm a curiously undisciplined turd, but as it remains obscured I'll keep a little bit of magic for my next visit.
That said, it was nice to chat with Bonjoy about some of the problems I'd seen and tried, rather than being fully anti-information, but I don't really know where that sits on the spectrum of documentation.
TL;DR what we have now is probably the best balance so that everyone is happy (except people who really want to publicise a PDF for some reason)
-
That said, it was nice to chat with Bonjoy about some of the problems I'd seen and tried, rather than being fully anti-information, but I don't really know where that sits on the spectrum of documentation.
(https://climbing-history.org/file/31d6ffd5-1ada-e50a-8bb1-45703bb9db6a/neuraliser.jpeg)
-
Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?
And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.
FFS so your original post should really have read "it's been done, bad luck losers"...
Agree with Barrows, those who are that desperate can have it. Keep it to yourselves otherwise.
-
Grinah most certainly has been documented which is my point, there’s a thorough 45 page pdf with most of the lines?
And there’s many hard projects which haven’t been done so most stuff Will be between those grades will with a few harder problems but there’s lots of harder stuff to go at still.
FFS so your original post should really have read "it's been done, bad luck losers"...
Agree with Barrows, those who are that desperate can have it. Keep it to yourselves otherwise.
No because I didn’t write it up or had anything to do with it, my point is that it exists and it’s sort of elitist to keep it obscured and hidden. Yes some people with contacts will find it fine but not everyone will be able to…
-
To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?
-
To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?
Yes. A little bit of magic definitely feels lost already.
-
Tragedy of the commons.
-
To complete the thought experiment. Now that Schrödinger's Topo is out of the box, do those who opposed documentation feel like their experience up there without said topo is diminished?
Yes. A little bit of magic definitely feels lost already.
Agreed. This is a depressingly familiar situation from my work in conservation, where every battle you win against development only serves to bring it to the attention of more people who think the place could be better utilised.
This is a real shame. It’s not about omitting the FA info as has been suggested, it’s about prescribing lines, grades and the whole mentality of ticking and rules that follows. We did have one place in The Peak where you could escape that. It was a unique experience. Shame on the ego(s) that couldn’t leave it be.
-
Never been, would like to go. Not having a guide is a positive for me, I want to feel like I've made an effort to get there and taken a chance.
-
This is a real shame. It’s not about omitting the FA info as has been suggested, it’s about prescribing lines, grades and the whole mentality of ticking and rules that follows. We did have one place in The Peak where you could escape that. It was a unique experience. Shame on the ego(s) that couldn’t leave it be.
I don't think you can assume it's ego-driven. If it was ego, wouldn't said person(s) have shared it widely/publicly to make something of their achievements? Agree it's a shame though.
-
Who made the topo?
Personally I like having to hunt for info on crags sometimes. Even if it means having some torturously bad hand drawn topos for crags like Supermarche on my laptop (and actually no idea where it is other than near a particular town, and, presumably, near a supermarket)...
-
Just to counteract the general funereal tone I'm probably more likely to go now I know theres some better info out there. Is that a bad thing? It hardly sounds like its been given the Rockfax treatment, and I've got no objection to having to track the topo down rather than it be freely hosted somewhere if thats the best way to maintain equanimity.
Surely the author of the topo is unlikely to be outed on a public forum lest JB start egging their house/ shouting 'shame!' at them in the street! :devangel:
-
The majority of people who know of grinah and have gone will have previous information about the already established lines from googling and seeing the many videos that exist or asking about, anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves :lol: no one is really blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there, just make the info public and stop pretending it’s some last bastion of climbing purity already.
-
blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there
That's the plan, yes :yes:
-
blindly doing a 2 hour approach not knowing what’s there
That's the plan, yes :yes:
So you have never looked at where it is, or any videos or pictures?
-
I know this may be hard to grasp but it is not very long, only about fifteen years or so, since we lived in a world where very little info was available online. On my first visit about twenty years back all we knew was it was worth the walk.
Who did you get the topo from? A google doesn’t turn anything up.
-
There’s literally a video on here from 2008 lmao https://youtu.be/ptzgmuwt6qk?si=Z6rlHZGmdHQsv3XN
-
Absolutely the most prescriptive, informative, authoritative and detailed guide I've seen there.
-
I don't think you can assume it's ego-driven. If it was ego, wouldn't said person(s) have shared it widely/publicly to make something of their achievements? Agree it's a shame though.
Oh I think you can. You could equally say if it was a selfless act of information sharing, they would have shared it widely. I suspect they’re playing a longer game and know by letting it trickle out the endgame is inevitable.
Writing stuff up is 99% ego in my experience, even if people don’t like to admit or confront it. It’s very deeply-wired dog pissing on a tree thing. Myself included., the allure of the FA, the right to name and grade, write the rules is hugely attractive, plus of course the lifetime of reinforcement via repeats. Few things reload your satisfaction like a repeat report along the lines of ‘brilliant, and no pushover’.
It’s no coincidence that the most vocal people calling for documentation here are active developers. There is very little decent new rock left to do in The Peak (particularly if you have any sort of quality control) and the idea there is all this great rock left unclaimed must be killing them.
One thing that confuses me, the idea that this idea is ‘outdated / well past it’s sell by date’. I don’t get that at all, I don’t recall this being much of a thing in the past ( I mean why would it be?), and the more we run out of unclaimed rock the more it seems like an idea for now and the future. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle.
‘Lmao’ youtube started in 2005, so I was three years out. No names or grades on the vid though. Again, where did you get the topo?
-
Fuck, sometimes I despair…. Yes I’m old yes I’m miserable and yes I’m most definitely a dinosaur. I’m not even going to bother justifying my position, other people have done that further up thread. I’ve never even been, but places and experiences like it should be preserved imho, genuinely why do people feel the need to document everything.??
Grinah is already extensively documented including names of all the boulders and areas of the crag, unfinished projects with their perceived difficulty, it’s just not public?
I wrote a long reply then lost it! Not documenting will become a big thing, look at Rabatou etc, the difficulty will be not telling people about not documenting.
I'd say leave it as it is.
-
We need to leave it undocumented so that it's a safe space for dabbing, stacking pads and crouch starting.
-
The majority of people who know of grinah and have gone will have previous information about the already established lines from googling and seeing the many videos that exist or asking about
There's a big difference between having a full guide with descriptions, names, grades, topo etc. and having to dig for a video here or a bit of info there.
Back when I went to to Tom et je ris it involved watching a shitty 20min video of Durif shot from miles away and emailing people I didn't know to find out how to approach. We still got lost (it was actually in a guide, the guide was just shit!). I'm glad it was like that, it all felt a little different and more worthwhile, even if I wouldn't want that to be the default situation for crags.
-
So you have never looked at where it is, or any videos or pictures?
I'll probably just get an Uber, or look at the OS map. :)
-
Maybe the solution is that any topo made requires the solving of some complex puzzle to be able to access? And twenty five questions all asking:
Are you sure you want access to this?
You will not be able to reverse this decision...
Are you still sure?
Do you accept that you are destroying a bit of what makes climbing great by downloading this?
Etc.
And maybe involve some kind of sacrifice? (ritual or otherwise).
And then, some kind of rule that any videos you upload have some kind of watermark, shaming you for sharing? Or maybe there's a private youtube channel, with access only for patreons who donate to some kind of good cause....
-
I went to Grinah in the early 2000's, I think before JB went (I remember him going later and raving about it). This was def pre pdf guide or youtube vids. I had heard off someone it was good, so there was a bit of elitism/gatekeeperism to it. I looked at the os map and went on my own, just me and my dog (and an impossible view). I took a rope with me, no pads and did a few rope solos and boulders. It didn't make a massive impression on me. I enjoyed it and sure had fun but I've been lucky enough to experience exploration in climbing in even more wild and remote locations. I may well have preferred it with more info and a bunch of 7,8's and proj to go at.
In general I think climbing benefits from documentation, esp when it comes to fa info. I love reading the fa list in guides where you get little stories about the fas, nuggets of info in to the character's and scenes of the time, and I think this is something a bit missing with bouldering. Bradders mentioned Ben's Groove sitter in his best of list, how many people know the story of the fa? It's not super amazing or funny but adds something to the time and people and problem.
I do think though there is a place for something different, somewhere you can get a more unique experience. I think more people would go and have a good time if there was a readily available topo (as likely would I), and this may be elitist of me to think it, but there are 100s of crags in the Peak/yorks with topos and vids and grades and fas so why not keep one place for people who want something different? In the 20+ years since my only visit I've not had a strong desire to go back, in the past I've got my adventure ticks in other ways. Having been unable to visit exotic/remote locations for a couple of years it's starting to become more attractive to me, with a pad this time and maybe some other people. I had no idea there was a topo and wouldn't have gone looking for one.
I'm not, personally, hugely bothered either way and my experience of the place is 20 years out of date. Times and approaches change and it could be I'm an old fart in my thinking about it. + there are youtube vids and apparently a pdf to those in the know.
-
Bradders mentioned Ben's Groove sitter in his best of list, how many people know the story of the fa? It's not super amazing or funny but adds something to the time and people and problem.
This is a good analogy for where I'm coming from.
I heard the story of the Ben's Groove Sitter FA verbally from someone. I genuinely can't even remember who I heard it from tbh. I'll not repeat it here, because the version of it that I know is probably totally wrong! Or at least half wrong. However, if anything, to me that increases its magic, its potency. Having something known, but not known, is a fantastic, mystical thing.
It's the same with Grinah. We all know it's there. And how to get to it. People have been raving about it for years. There are a handful of videos and pictures, but that's it. It leaves space for the imagination, allows you to dream. A guide completely changes that and I think it's really quite sad that people are so keen to stamp it out, when they really don't have to.
-
A cool approach for places like Grinah would be to have a written topo, kept in a little weatherproof box which is left at the stones. No photos. Requiring a commitment to the walk to see the topo to do the boulders in said topo.
That satisfies both desires - for documentation and for a bit of mystique.
But we can’t have nice things. 🙁
Really I think the people who want it all online fall into JB’s characterisation, which I think is bang on - it’s so much about ego.
Not documenting makes little sense; but neither does climbing yet it manages to be pretty cool despite the lack of reason.
-
sod Grinah Stones, what's the craic with the Ben's sitter FA? Did Steve push someone off just as they were about to top out?
-
sod Grinah Stones, what's the craic with the Ben's sitter FA? Did Steve push someone off just as they were about to top out?
My memory has been proven by others to be pretty patchy. I think JB was around so may confirm/correct my recollections...
We (The Leeds crew) were at Caley one day, doing our normal of cruising around doing 30-40 problems and then bits of soloing etc that we seemed to think was what bouldering consisted of. Myles and Patta were up from Sheffield and were trying the proj sitter to Ben's. Both were doing ok but Myles was looking best on it. His hands were moving so fast on the slaps that from then on we called him 'fast hands Gibson' using the same creative nick name process that led to Harry being called 9 toez, Nick being called Shakin' Nick etc. I think JB has some photos but even using his camera skills Myles' hands are a blur. Myles was wearing very snazzy tartan trousers. Neither did it and they went back to Shef. In the meantime we didn't bother to get on it as we were all lazy fucks.
A few days later Patter and Myles are talking about coming back up to try it again. Myles doesn't own a car. Patter refuses to give him a lift and drives up without him. Patter conquers the project, the guilt of dropping Myles is worth it for the primo fa.
Turns out our dark horse hero Stevey D had made the fa a few days before the Sheffielders first session and just hadn't told anyone...
Just to reconfirm this is all based on my dodgy memory and gossip regarding the non lift. Patta, Myles and Steve are all lovely blokes.
-
My memory is that it was a Sunday, and it wasn’t really a project on anyone’s radar until that day. Patta came back on the Tuesday and some days later Steve put the claim in for the Monday. It seemed like karma had come for Richie but also remarkably fortuitous timing for Steve. And we weren’t being lazy, none of us could touch it at first. When I did it, probably the winter after, it definitely felt like the hardest thing I’d done up to then, a notch harder than stuff like Brad Pit or Lager lager, really intricate.
Back on topic, I don’t think anyone is suggesting FA history isn’t in the main a brilliant thing and a great part of climbing. Just that at this one venue it might be interesting to do something different.
-
What I'd heard was that the first and second ascent were both done on the same day, without either climber actually seeing the other there. Seemed too good to be true, but in my head it is.
-
El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…
-
cheers everyone :2thumbsup: I do enjoy hearing about this stuff
What I'd heard was that the first and second ascent were both done on the same day, without either climber actually seeing the other there. Seemed too good to be true, but in my head it is.
thinking about it, I think I might have heard this version before.
-
El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…
Reminds me of this old video of Matt Birch doing the sit. Just an incredible display of climbing ability.
https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/caley-roadside-with-matt-birch/
Also, I'd always wondered whether it had been flashed. Not even Aidan Roberts managed it!
-
Who is going to send the topo then?
I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.
It’s never going to be worn out because of its location, so why do other people care how adventurous and exploratory my private day up there is that is nothing to do with them?
-
El Mocho, JB – that's my recollection of events too. I don't recall Myles's tartan but I do recall him casually demonstrating that if you're sufficiently strong, toe hooks on Zoo York are just cosmetic. Later saw Tim Clifford flash the groove into the stand, then step off because it was too high. 'twas a time of legends, when dark horses stalked the land…
Reminds me of this old video of Matt Birch doing the sit. Just an incredible display of climbing ability.
https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/caley-roadside-with-matt-birch/
Also, I'd always wondered whether it had been flashed. Not even Aidan Roberts managed it!
Matt is the only person to flash west side story as far as I’m aware
-
AFAIK that is a myth. Surprised it’s still doing the rounds.
Who is going to send the topo then?
I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.
If there is a guide being circulated in secret, as Carlos states, then yes that absolutely looks like gatekeeping.
I don’t see how not having a guide in the first place is. The first bouldering guides only appeared in the nineties, when a lot of us started it was the norm to boulder with very little info. I recommend trying it.
-
AFAIK that is a myth. Surprised it’s still doing the rounds.
Who is going to send the topo then?
I’d love to go but haven’t yet because there is no info available. It’s gatekeeperism without a doubt.
If there is a guide being circulated in secret, as Carlos states, then yes that absolutely looks like gatekeeping.
I don’t see how not having a guide in the first place is. The first bouldering guides only appeared in the nineties, when a lot of us started it was the norm to boulder with very little info. I recommend trying it.
Interesting, I asked Matt directly about it and he confirmed he flashed it unless the myth is that others have also flashed it but not aware of any others?
-
He told me he didn’t.
-
I've bouldered, on and off, at a bumbly level, since the late 80s. Although I've never made much use of guides, since the very beginning I've been very reliant on being shown where things were and what to do by other people in person. Recently I've found online videos fantastic for expanding and facilitating that.
Some people are visionaries who can unlock the natural potential offered by the rocks. I really admire that. I do potter around a little on rock that I don't know about, but I'm not someone who has the talent to make the most of the rocks unguided.
I guess it is hard for people who do have such a talent to understand how others lack it.
-
I don’t have a great talent for that either. Most of the new stuff I’ve done has been spotted by others. But no one is stopping you having that experience at literally any other crag in the country. But for people who really value occasionally not being spoon fed, I don’t see how leaving one remote crag undocumented is such an imposition? I suspect you’d get on better than you think.
-
Amazing! Two accounts apparently from the horse's mouth that are completely contradictory.
Years ago there was a very persistent myth that Elie Chevieux had failed to onsight Sardine. I know he did because I was belaying. As we were the only people at the crag I've no idea how the myth began or persisted.
-
I recommend trying it.
Worth asking, Carlos I presume from your posts that you've been there, but have you been and actually climbed without the info? Or did you go up having got the PDF first?
-
Seems odd to me that people should be vexed about one venue left undocumented. Fair enough if you’ve exhausted every documented venue in the Pennines, but otherwise, why should it matter? It’s not as if the climbing is altered in any way by the lack of documentation, just the convenience of access and ease of recording ticks.
-
It’s kind of funny that people assume documentation is ego driven - the whole point of this was to document the lines without any FA info just so people who want it can access that info, personally I didn’t care to add names to it. For the record I’ve not been yet and when I do go and if I did add new stuff I’d continue to not include names and just update the lines to say “theres a thing here that’s good and worth trying” as others have mentioned it’s a big jumble and can be hard to get around, ease of access is never a bad thing - I love adventuring and jungle bashing more than I love doing established stuff so I understand the exploratory nature of it too but there’s still loads of crags and outcrops in that area and beyond that people can visit for a truly adventurous day out, just use google maps and there’s loads of areas that have no names in OS maps. Everyone knows about grinah and the info is out there, it was maybe adventurous years ago when first discovered but not sure that’s the case anymore?
-
I find the accusations of gate keeping and elitism really weird for two reasons.
First, if anything saying ‘here is a place you can go and just climb. Don’t worry about names, grades, lines. Just enjoy yourself’ is the opposite of gate keeping or elitism.
Second, the people desperate to publicly document Grinah are telling a set of climbers (and maybe importantly a minority) they can’t have this one crag out of the whole peak for a specific experience. It must be homogenised and brought into line with the literally hundreds of other venues in the peak.
As has been pointed out before all the information to get there is easily accessible and available. And if you want to try some specific lines that information is out there too with a bit of searching, watching videos and messaging etc. Even more so after this thread. If you must have a guide, just message DingDong. Just please don’t publicise it widely.
I really don’t know who all these climbers are that want to go to Grinah but simply can’t get the information. It feels like a straw man argument.
(Just to make it clear, I haven’t been before but have meant to go for years. But life, kids, work makes even getting to roadside crags tricky. But I find the existence of Grinah inspiring and would love to visit one day and just climb. A publicly available guide would spoil that. I would definitely look.)
-
I'm dead against documentation of Grinah, for all the reasons of wishing to preserve the experience as has been well articulated by others.
Johnny A, Carlos, and anyone else in favour of documentation, can you explain your argument for why you think Grinah specifically warrants a topo? I've only been once - and had a fab day - but it isn't objectively amazing rock climbing. I enjoyed it because of the place and the exploration. There's a lot of scrittle as well as some decent rock. It's got that moorland grime that the high crags get. It's not like the plantation. I thought it was good because it's wild, and the lack of a topo was part of that experience.
If I went to the plantation without a topo as a first-time visitor I'd be diminishing my experience by missing out on some cool problems. If I'd have gone to Grinag with a topo I'd have diminished the best parts of that very different experience.
Obviously documentation brings lots of good to climbing, like history, ease of finding the problems, a common language of names to refer to bits of rock. But it also takes away some mystery, the romanticism of exploring, it makes it harder to go to a place and 'be' rather than 'do'. I don't think the experience of climbing at Grinah would be greatly enhanced by documentation in the ways that documentation can enhamce climbing; but the ways that documentation can degrade experience would be particularly harsh on the whole 'Grinah experience', as i see it anyway. So I say let's document 99% of the Peak, but can't we please leave this one percent - a part which is almost uniquely suited to it - as remaining undocumented?
At the risk of laboring the point, this isn't an argument for/ against documentation per se, but about Grinah specifically. So Carlos and Ashton et al, care to explain why you think Grinah would be improved through documentation?
-
Totally agree with that Andy.
I can see that documentation allows people not on board with exploration to home in on good problems. However they can do that literally anywhere else, and with less walk-in. I think the drive here is more that it allows keen developers to document what has and hasn't been done, for their own ends. The gift of info for the wider community is a bit of a beard for the ego, developing is a creative act and normally gifting your creation is part of that, but it still implies that your way is the right way to approach the boulder. For me the importance of not recording information here is line first, then grade, then FA. I really found it fresh, liberating and intimidating not having described lines on clearly climable rock.
The opportunity for the history aspect here has already been lost, and I don't see much to gain starting now.
It’s kind of funny that people assume documentation is ego driven - the whole point of this was to document the lines without any FA info just so people who want it can access that info, personally I didn’t care to add names to it.
I can only speak for myself but my ego would be pretty chill about my name not being in the book, as long as I know it's my problem.
For the record I’ve not been yet
Well that certainly puts the rest of this thread reboot in a new perspective. I can see how acquiring a secret topo might seem gatekeepy, but it's the secret topo against the agreed ethic that is the problem, not the ethic. I don't see anything gatekeepy in several books having approach info and inspiring photos.
Here's an idea, you are clearly pretty psyched for the place, so how's about - just for the first visit - not taking the topo and giving it a go without? I'll be up for a mid-week hit when the days get a bit longer, never used the southern approach so far.