UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: shark on February 11, 2014, 02:03:36 pm
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IO1 in ladder scandal .....
Apparently I shouldn't be able to sleep at night and need to take a Long hard look in the mirror (https://twitter.com/adam_jb_long).
Anyone else getting grief for using an extendable ladder ?
ps Thanks for dobbing me in Lagers
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If it pisses Adam Long off, it has to be a good thing.
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Apparently I shouldn't be able to sleep at night and need to take a Long hard look in the mirror (https://twitter.com/adam_jb_long).
Anyone else getting grief for using an extendable ladder ?
ps Thanks for dobbing me in Lagers
Seeing as lagers dobbed you in I'll chip in ;)
You know it was wrong Shark - as the other week between using it you laid it down on the ground "so no one from the other side of the valley can see" ;)
Anyway - its fine on limestone, but not on grit... :D
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A great riposte on twitter to Adams incredulity :lol: :clap2:
Again, someone was working West Side Story today with a bloody ladder. I don't know how they sleep at night. (https://twitter.com/adam_jb_long/status/432967617763344385)
Bunkbed I reckon (https://twitter.com/jon_fullwood/status/433154486098350081)
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You know it was wrong Shark - as the other week between using it you laid it down on the ground "so no one from the other side of the valley can see" ;)
I don't.
I suspected other people would think it was wrong or at least unsightly.
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I can see why folk would get pissed off with them in Burbage valley on the likes of WSS. However, they're a great bit of kit for cleaning and establishing new problems, especially if those problems are highish to massive and you're climbing alone.
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Any recommendations for a good one btw? Got a project I need to clean, 10 ft of good rock at the bottom of a seacliff,50 ft of choss above.
As far as working grit probs, I personally really wouldn't bother.
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If it's good enough for Nalle...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5iBJKDR6c_U/S8I1jjqlQAI/AAAAAAAAAmk/g1TU9e3z0dQ/s1600/Project1.jpg)
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If it's quite steep (~>40 - full roof) a super cheap step ladder is best (cheap = light) I also have a 4 m ish telescopic ladder which is great for less steep and higher stuff. Quite heavy, but fits into a pad and is easy to extend / collapse. IIRC, it was about 70 notes off Amazon.
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Cheers. Something to fit into pad would be ideal, I also need two hands free to get to the bottom!
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Chris - can't you make one out of driftwood down there?
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I think they may be justified for opening a hard new line where abseiling is unhelpful.
For repeating a thirty year old mid-grade problem with a perfect landing and a break that allows you traverse in, its fucking embarrassing frankly. On both occasions I could see it just from driving past.
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Apparently I shouldn't be able to sleep at night and need to take a Long hard look in the mirror (https://twitter.com/adam_jb_long).
Which bit were you trying off the ladder, the top out? Seems like a tricky problem to be able to pull on to.
The telescopic ones have definitely been a game changer at the top end of bouldering over here, you only have to look at the recent ascents of High Fidelity, Dandelion Minds, Rhythm, etc.
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Which bit were you trying off the ladder, the top out? Seems like a tricky problem to be able to pull on to.
Not the top out. Its only 1.7m high (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/telescopic-ladder-17m-n69nk). I was mainly using it to brush the sidepulls and sort out the best way to use the top sidehold.
Like you say it is tricky to pull onto but I had a few attempts mainly to sort out where I was going to place my right foot when jumping for the porthole.
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Funny really... If you ab in to clean a sport route, would anyone complain? If you stood on a pile of mats to brush, would anyone moan? As long as you take the ladder home, what's the beef?
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Chris - can't you make one out of driftwood down there?
Given my carpentry skills and the size of the bits of wood lying about it might take me a month or so of full time work. There used to be an enormous shipping buoy in the bay, but sadly it got washed back out in storms last year. Would have been ideal for some comedy balance on a barrel stylings.
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As long as you take the ladder home, what's the beef?
Its an opportunity to take the piss out of Shark ;)
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Funny really... If you ab in to clean a sport route, would anyone complain? If you stood on a pile of mats to brush, would anyone moan? As long as you take the ladder home, what's the beef?
Same reason people take the p*ss if you're unwilling to even leave the floor / try to bolt-to-bolt a route before breaking out the clipstick?
Lets hope if it catches on people at least have the brains to wrap the ends of the ladders in something padded. Did anyone else happen to notice the lack of chalk on the Bowden rail poster in a recent magazine?
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I was slightly disappointed, but mainly because I was expecting some bachar like training device and not a foot up for midgets to brush holds with. So did you manage WSS then Shark, reckon my best bet would be to just climb the ladder...
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I am late to this shocking story due to my unhelpful time zone. Has it had adequate social media attention yet? Should we be tweeting and farcebooking it?
Get with the program! It started on twitter.. and spread like wild fire!
(a kind of slow moving damp moorland whilst raining wildfire..)
Flappy birds is yesterdays news...
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News thread? Ladder Hall Of Shame sticky?
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I enjoyed a great 45mins soloing after work at burbage north last night. I saw someone with a ladder on westside.
Would I use a ladder on westside? No.
Do I think carting a ladder in is probably easier than checking out moves/holds from the side or piecing it together from a deck? No.
Do I think its looks a bit ridiculous? Sightly
Does it bother me that someone would use a ladder on westside assuming nothing is damaged? No.
Did it spoil my enjoyment of a lovely evening? Not really.
End of story.
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I've already rung the ethics police, this is a step in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned. etc etc.
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If they help you.. And they leave no impact.. End of the day you've still got to climb it.... Whatever.. Wtf not...
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ladders for traversing are called gantries - I think Shark asked for the wrong tool
as long as they've got an appropriate DPM paint job, some rock friendly organic cotton rags wrapped round one end and won't be left where I will stand/fall on them I don't mind ladders at the crag
I remember thinking how fucking stupid bouldering pads looked when they first started appearing - now I've got a shed full
it's the same as I said about not bothering to top out on WSS - it depends on how much peer approval matters to you (apart from how much fun you have)
from Sharks point of view: he's getting on a bit (no telling how many more grit seasons he'll get), his knees only have so many landings left in them, he has limited time until the oak season starts, he likes lifting heavy weights and he's never done WSS. £14.99 and a bit of stick via social media seems a reasonable price to pay
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I think topping out is different. The problem finishes at the top! (And the top isn't that hard)
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The problem finishes at the top! (And the top isn't that hard)
so the top isn't a problem?
it's the first half that's the problem?
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The problem finishes at the top! (And the top isn't that hard)
so the top isn't a problem?
it's the first half that's the problem?
It's the top of the boulder problem ;)
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so the route and the boulder problem finish at the same place?
if he wanted to get to the top he'd go the easy way round the back, shirley
all he wants to do is get the half height break without being caught traversing anything
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Anyone who claimed West side having worked it with a ladder, and then proceeded to traverse off halfway up would be a laughing stock!
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now that you've pre-warned him, there's no chance we'll get that sort of entertainment is there?
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Can I have the tick if I practice the top half from a ladder, then do it by traversing into half height? E7?
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can someone tell me why I should be disagreeing with this? I'm so confused...
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I'll be happy getting to the jug and getting to the jug is the boulder problem but if I ever get there it was always my intention at having a go at topping out because it looks appealing and that's where the line goes not because of what people might think.
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C'mon Shark, get with the programme.
The only approved use of ladders is for laying horizontally on the ground to cover gaps between rocks as the first stage of building a multi-pad platform. All vertical uses strictly forbidden.
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I'll be happy getting to the jug and getting to the jug is the boulder problem but if I ever get there it was always my intention at having a go at topping out because it looks appealing and that's where the line goes not because of what people might think.
it would be a hollow and temporary happiness. man up, its only 5b/c to top out and not that high...
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it would be a hollow and temporary happiness....
...compared to achieving a long term red-point goal - the chances of which would be seriously reduced by an injury due to falling off from highish up, no matter how easy the move
I'd just like to remind Shark that the consequences of a broken bone for a man well past 40 with 3 kids and significant work commitments are not trivial - especially if it meant he couldn't drive for a while.
You'll still be able to say "I did The Boulder Problem Previously Known as the Bottom Half of West Side Story". Maybe save the full ascent for when you're trying to impress/inspire one of the kids (in front of a bunch of their bouldering peers)?
While we're waiting for the next UKB interview could you use your in-front-of-camera skills to do a review of your Maplin ladder?
I for one am looking forward to some good natured British heckling at the crag whenever someone I know has a ladder out.
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its only 5b/c to top out
I think you'll find there's a surprisingly long list of people who's ability to climb 5b/c deserts them upon reaching the west side jug for the first time.
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Its a separate problem up to the porthole - called West Side Wibble.
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I did it the other way round. I've done the topout but not the start.
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C'mon Shark, get with the programme.
The only approved use of ladders is for laying horizontally on the ground to cover gaps between rocks as the first stage of building a multi-pad platform. All vertical uses strictly forbidden.
You're the one who's off programme - I'm at the cutting edge of tactics; see here at 2.50 (http://www.epictv.com/media/podcast/twenty-year-long-8b-boulder-problem-finally-climbed-%7C-stone-kingdom-ep-2/265322) :bow:
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Very, very occasionally, sub-section 3.1.2 of the rules allows a ladder to be used for routes in excess of 8B. I'm sorry to say that WSS is now classified as 'a thirty year old mid-grade problem' best used for showboating.
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I'll be happy getting to the jug and getting to the jug is the boulder problem but if I ever get there it was always my intention at having a go at topping out because it looks appealing and that's where the line goes not because of what people might think.
Of course you bloody are. All this deflecting the issue with nonsense about summit ticks and peer approval is irrelevant bollox. You should be on WSS for the quality of the line and the beauty of of the movement and the former goes all the way to the top. Otherwise you might as well just build a replica indoors.
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I'll be happy getting to the jug and getting to the jug is the boulder problem but if I ever get there it was always my intention at having a go at topping out because it looks appealing and that's where the line goes not because of what people might think.
Of course you bloody are. All this deflecting the issue with nonsense about summit ticks and peer approval is irrelevant bollox. You should be on WSS for the quality of the line and the beauty of of the movement and the former goes all the way to the top. Otherwise you might as well just build a replica indoors.
I disagree. The hard climbing ends at a jug and a break where you can traverse off if you want to. This is a bona fide end to a boulder problem. It was put up as a micro route after all - pre mats obvs. The top out is optional ( a superior option) in my view (because of the jug/break) if doing it as a problem.
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Horse cock.
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Ludicrous. Traversing off at the break is just that. Traverse in and work the top first if you want, but no top no tick.
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stupid question: i don't remember exactly if there are useful features above WSS but can't you just put a fixed line and use that, a grigri and a harness instead of a ladder???
anyway i remember the climbing past the jug being an enjoyable experience, especially as it's just the right difficulty compared to the bottom half.
Just have a proper look and brush at the last holds from above...
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It's a bit silly really because if you can do the bottom you should path the top. It's not a route anymore.
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It finishes at the top.
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Stick a cam in the break if its that much of an issue.
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I refer you back to my earlier laughing stock comment.
If there's a lesson to be learned from this, it's that using a ladder in a conspicuous spot is likely to bring the internet ethics police to pore over your efforts far more closely than you might want...
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Hang on, is this ladder not even to try the section above the break??
Can I change my vote to "Shark is a fanny?" :)
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Ludicrous. Traversing off at the break is just that. Traverse in and work the top first if you want, but no top no tick.
Can you have the tick if you do the first half, traverse off and rest, then traverse back in and top out? :worms:
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No. Don't you have any soul.
I'd much rather our hallowed leader is using a ladder to work the problem and is 100% going to climb West Side Story, rather than is not using a ladder and only "might" climb West Side Story after doing the start.
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Is it ok for him to leave a rope down the top then as per new hard routes?
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If he wants to maintain any credibility I'd suggest ditching the ladder and manning up for the topout, like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LAST THIRTY YEARS HAS DONE.
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If he wants to maintain any credibility I'd suggest ditching the ladder and manning up for the topout, like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LAST THIRTY YEARS HAS DONE.
Not strictly true. There was a period when not topping out was in fashion. A British gal got a write up in OTE when she hadn't topped out.
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I refer you back to my earlier laughing stock comment.
It's a cross we young independent thinkers have to bear
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There was a period when not topping out was in fashion
No. There was a period before the internet when ignorant cowards claimed something they hadn't done.
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The top is not a foregone conclusion when you get there. First time I got there I tried the top and failed. I then worked it out after traversing in and did it in one on another day. If WSS is near the top of your bouldering grade then the odds of fluffing the top are fairly high, especially if you haven't done it before. In other words it isn't the end of the hard climbing.
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Even after many ascents, I'd put it at 5c/6a not 5b/c. And it's quite high up, which is a big part of why this problem is such a classic.
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I love the side pull in the flake at the top, both for the shape and the fact it's where it is. One of my favourite holds.
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I don't think anyone should face abuse for this sort of thing. I used to think ethics were important, then I took a fall from not-that-much-higher than WSS onto lots of pads and shattered my foot. Result: two really painful operations and spending months unable to walk and off my tits on painkillers. There's no way I'm risking doing the same thing again so what does it matter if Shark takes a ladder to Burbage/I try and flash Braille Trail on toprope/Barrows puts a ladder up his bum as long as it doesn't fuck the problem up for me to try in whatever style I want?
I've always thought the ethics police were in favour of 'going climbing for the love of it' etc. and very down on grade-chasing, but 'your balls must be smaller than mine because you don't feel the same way as me about risking your ankles on the top of WSS' is just as willytastic as 'Look at me I climb 8c+ my dick must be huge'.
My dick is not that big btw, and I haven't done WSS.
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then I took a fall from not-that-much-higher than WSS onto lots of pads and shattered my foot
How did this happen, was there a gap in the pads or something? What did you fall off?
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I fell off from below the shothole on Masters Edge. My foot popped, I had a heel round the arete, so I fell slightly out of control (not excessively) and landed with most of my weight on one foot. There was then a loud bang and a lot of swearing.
We had 8 pads underneath it btw, and I landed on them, and I'm light and normally bounce well. Pads are not a guarantee of safety!
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I can see your point but i don't think anyone is willy waving about topping out a 7B+ (well maybe JB is but...) more just saying that you can't tick the problem without climbing all of it.
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well maybe JB is but...
;D
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I've always thought the ethics police were in favour of 'going climbing for the love of it' etc. and very down on grade-chasing
In my experience ethical transgressions tend to occur because folk are desperate to tick a certain problem or grade. People 'climbing for the love of it' tend to realise that satisfaction doesn't come from dragging things down to your level.
I don't see how topping out WSS is willy-waving when that is the only accepted definition of having done it? If that makes me elitist so be it. I'm not sure how you can have a sport without elitism.
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just saying that you can't tick the problem without climbing all of it
Exactly.
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Maybe I used too many penis metaphors.
If Shark climbs to the break on WSS without a ladder, and is happy that he did some moves that he found hard and enjoyable, I still don't think calling him a coward is constructive.
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Shark wants to climb to the break using a ladder. The whole point is to get a good feel for the third side-pull. The obvious solution is for the manly, 76kg beast that is JB, to help out with the traditional tactic of pressing Shark into the wall via the latter's backside. Since JB is not that tall, we'll allow him a pile of mats to do it.
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In my experience ethical transgressions tend to occur because folk are desperate to tick a certain problem or grade. People 'climbing for the love of it' tend to realise that satisfaction doesn't come from dragging things down to your level.
Don't agree in this case - if Shark doesn't top out despite knowing that no one will accept he's ticked it, or respect his usage of a ladder, but is still happy, I think that's a brilliant example of someone genuinely climbing for the moves not the tick!
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We all get more cowardly as we get older, I know I am. Unfortunately success on many gritstone climbs often involves a bit of boldness, WSS being one of those. Pretending things are otherwise is pointless.
I would add I've never seen anyone fall off the topout. It's one move, the left hand is big, the right positive, if you don't like it you can back off.
Happy to push Shark's backside in anytime. I also have an extensive range of sequences I will make freely available, on the occasion I don't have to share the crag with a ladder. I will build Shark my own ladder, made of beta and positive vibes.
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In terms of ethics, it's always worth remembering there is the choice simply not to do something if it's too risky. If leading Braille Trail is too risky, one can simply not climb it. If highballing WSS is too risky, one can simply not climb it either.
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Happy to push Shark's backside in anytime. I also have an extensive range of sequences I will make freely available, on the occasion I don't have to share the crag with a ladder. I will build Shark my own ladder, made of beta and positive vibes.
He also needs a stick brush.
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If... is too risky, one can simply not climb it either
No no no. Everything must be made as easy and safe as possible so as many people can 'climb' it. Anything else is elitist bullshit laid down by willy waving wankers..
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True, I think it needs a bolt just above the break.
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True, I think it needs a bolt just above the break.
Would be happy to sort that
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Having climbed most of my bouldering life with people much lighter than me i spent many a day being a ladder.
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I still like Dave's idea of putting a cam in the break. As long as Shark doesn't ab down to check the size and has to guesstimate what to take up with him or get thrown up as he hangs on getting pumped :yes:
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I suggest we recycle some of the Burbage plantation and build ladders to be left at all the main bouldering buttresses thereabouts
minimum carbon footprint etc etc
maybe gantries as well for any traverses higher than 18" off the floor
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In terms of ethics, it's always worth remembering there is the choice simply not to do something if it's too risky. If leading Braille Trail is too risky, one can simply not climb it. If highballing WSS is too risky, one can simply not climb it either.
There's always the option of 'not climbing' something. I don't think that statement actually makes a point.
To continue with the Braille Trail example - TRing it once doesn't even polish it, or wear out the gear placements, as much as repeated GU attempts would, let alone a headpoint. It also has the added advantage that it would wind people up on the internet, what's not to like? ;)
Everything must be made as easy and safe as possible so as many people can 'climb' it. Anything else is elitist bullshit laid down by willy waving wankers.
Not quite what I was trying to say. My point was that people should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn't ruin things for other people. If someone got loads of media coverage/groupies/cash for saying they'd done something and it turned out they had done something ethically dodgy in order to get that tick then I would agree that was reprehensible.
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This whole thread would be a lot more interesting if Shark actually had claimed WSS without going to the top, or if anyone else in the climbing community really cared that he had.
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Everyone quit hating on the geez!
Get to the break, match and drop off, jobs a good'un.
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I wouldn't even match. Just tap the back of your hand and head to the Foundry to start the bragging.
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Just tap the back of your hand
AKA Parisellas Match
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My thoughts - as I've been working WSS for the best part of 2 years..
I have been involved in one 'laddering' session at WSS with Shark... he (and me) used it mainly to feel where the best part of the third sidepull to catch is/was. This was not possible from the break (reaching down) nor from the right side traversing in from half way up... For me, this was a bit of a breakthrough as I found exactly the right place to put my hand on said side pull - and I started to catch it regularly.. In someways I'd rather have worked it out from the ground - but now I've been up for a fondle on the ladder (!!) I'm not feeling guilty....
I got to the same point Shark is now (popping and not getting the pocket) but subsequent back injury has prevented me having another go, but I don't feel a ladder is necessary any more (for me..). I have thought quite a lot about the top out - and if I was on my own and caught the porthole/jug I think I would have a try at the top out - but probably drop off and think to myself that I'd done most of the problem - but not ticked it. A top out is part of it.
The top out is something I'll wait for until there are enough pads (2 or 3 are fine) and importantly a spotter... I'd quite like to work out the topout having done the problem in a ground up stylee - but may well end up practicing the top out enough so there were no surprises by traversing in etc...
Just my brain dump on the affair :)
(we did pad the top of the ladder with a rock boot over each prod so it didnt mark/damage the rock btw..)
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To continue with the Braille Trail example - TRing it once doesn't even polish it, or wear out the gear placements, as much as repeated GU attempts would,
So what you're saying is that climbing something once polishes it less than climbing it several times, therefore toproping is better than traditional leading :-\. Because obviously top ropers always lower off and go home when they fall off the flash and ground-uppers always take repeated big lobs from near the top. You are Graham Hoey and I claim my £5 thank you.
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Well they're both 'worse' for the route than 'not climbing it'. ;)
But we're well off the original topic of sharks with knees on ladders.
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Is he using his knees too?? Jesus fuck. Surely they are ONLY allowed for the final mantle on the TOP-OUT....
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Also allowed on the pads before you start when you pray to fuck that this will be the go.
I have been involved in one 'laddering' session at WSS with Shark... he (and me) used it mainly to feel where the best part of the third sidepull to catch is/was. This was not possible from the break (reaching down) nor from the right side traversing in from half way up.
Strangely I did mange to find the hold, your arms must be much shorter than mine :P
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long levers... ;) #excuse
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I laughed at welford carrying a ladder to spring voyage, I'm not laughing now
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Really, I can't believe this thread has run to four pages! Finally gives me a chance to use this...
(http://transportblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Storm-in-a-Teacup.jpg)
...and I'm all for pink Anasazis but Pan au Chocalat would be preferable.
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Worst thing would be to fall of the ladder.
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http://youtu.be/035PC4WXADQ (http://youtu.be/035PC4WXADQ)
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Has anyone made any 'ladder-match' jokes yet?
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First Ascent of The Penrose Step V14 • Carlo Traversi
Yup, he tops it out rather than getting to the big slopey rail and dropping off :chair:
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First Ascent of The Penrose Step V14 • Carlo Traversi
Yup, he tops it out rather than getting to the big slopey rail and dropping off :chair:
Just like The Rail at Bowden? Funnily, don't recall so many folk raising an eyebrow at that.
For the record, I couldn't really care less how people choose to draw a line in the sand with this sort of thing, even though I personally like topping out.
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Is that The Rail that has only had one ascent that deliberately stopped off at a drop off jug because "joins a horrible sandy, but easy, top out of an E4 at that point which i would guess hasn't been done for 20 years and will be pretty covered in heather", or a different Rail??
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Just like The Rail at Bowden? Funnily, don't recall so many folk raising an eyebrow at that.
Or at the effective use of the ladder which would have easily been visible from Burbage Bridge via military satellite
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:D
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I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.
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I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.
I am reminded of Troll including a note in its chalk bags on only using chalk on moves of 6a and harder.
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new term needed ??? 'ladder point ascent' ;D
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new term needed ??? 'ladder point ascent' ;D
Would last as long as pinkpoint
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already covered by "worked (no power tools)"
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Is that The Rail that has only had one ascent that deliberately stopped off at a drop off jug because "joins a horrible sandy, but easy, top out of an E4 at that point which i would guess hasn't been done for 20 years and will be pretty covered in heather", or a different Rail??
Yes, that one. And the stated reason for dropping off may or may not be the opinion of the FA, who could just as easily have been after a hard bit of climbing, regardless of what came next. Put a classic E4 on top of that and you might be just as inclined to drop off after 8B+.
I knew this would be your reply, which is why I made the point in the way that I did. The only difference between what Shark has done and what Dan did is one of precedent - in once case establishing in the other case breaking from. I see no (good) reason why this difference should matter at all, provided there is honesty and the rock isn't damaged.
Personally, if I ever get around to trying WSS I'll be trying to top it without ladderaid. But that's my own bag.
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I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.
next thing you'll be moaning about the wheelchair access to The Matterhorn
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Alex Honnold and Matt Segal were at the milks a few months ago climbing the upper slab of this thing, sans rope but using a ladder to skip the v9 opening and get straight up to the v5x slab above. :???:
(http://d32y13ngxxhn1k.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Jorgeson-Footprints-granpap_24028.jpg)
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As an aside, and looking on from an old, old school perspective, which has more appeal, ladder and no mats, or mats and no ladder? I bet the former would result in less wear and tear on the rock, and has a certain aesthetic appeal for me - as long as it's a wooden ladder of course, with an old beer towel at the bottom.. ..in case the top out is too exciting..
Of course, using both.. well that must be a double cheat ;-)
Don't get caught looking stoked when you hit the break, that's my advice.
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5 pages and getting all serious. i just thought it was a bit of an opportunity to take the piss out of shark for being weak.
Doesn't crag x have a ladder and always did. I don't remember any objections to that and the crag is shorter than WSS.
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Yeah but some of the problems there are hard.
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Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.
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[ukc]Does that mean it's OK to headpoint Severes?[/ukc]
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if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones
Wind-ups aside, I don't agree. From oxygen-fed siege-style in the Himalaya to chipping at Froggatt, breaking new ground has always involved pushing the limits of acceptability. The more extreme cheats do not typically filter down to the masses, and rightly so.
Taking a step back, for me there's something intrinsically self-defeating about taking a ladder rock climbing. A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.
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Except the Bowderstone.
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A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.
Yes, if you use the motorbike to check out sections of the course before you ride it properly.
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[ukc]Does that mean it's OK to headpoint Severes?[/ukc]
People do. I witnessed this on a school trip in 1991 I would have soloed it to to prove a point to the teacher but Jasper had already beaten me too it.
if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones
A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.
Thats a terrible analogy. As with a lot of debate in climbing this all seems to be about the consensus spirit of things and precedent which in this case means that WSS is not the place for a ladder.
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to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:
if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION
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Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.
Out tomorrow?
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to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:
if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION
Its not OK by me! #badback
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to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:
if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION
Yes, have you not seen Stick it?
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yes but can't recall the link, go on...
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Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.
Out tomorrow?
Yep
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yes but can't recall the link, go on...
Ben Moon in Northumberland getting agro with his mate because he was making a pig's ear of giving him a leg up.
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FFS. Unless the ethics involved directly impact someone else's experience, then who really cares. I've used ladders, ropes, and done loads of ground up over the years. It's always come down to a personal experience. If someone wants to step up and do it ground up in better style, then more power to them, but I'm also not going to judge the person for abbing down and figuring out the moves, or setting a ladder and figuring out the moves. Just don't check the whole thing out on a ladder then say you did it ground up.
So for clarity:
Lying = bad
direct impact on others experience = bad
something which diminishes your personal experience = bad
something which gives an old man a better chance to climb something with hurting himself = ok
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something which gives an old man a better chance to climb something with hurting himself = ok
Yes there is a chance he could fall off or onto the ladder.
Taking the piss out of Shark on his own thread on his own forum = ok
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Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.
Out tomorrow?
Yep
Send train Friday then :)
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Send train ladder Friday then :)
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if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones
Taking a step back, for me there's something intrinsically self-defeating about taking a ladder rock climbing. A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.
That's brilliant. Like everyone else, I love the videos of you showboating on DIY and other HVSs from the early '80s and before, and hope you manage to carry on doing that into your 80s above a suitably thick pile of next-next-next generation Ronin and Moon mats in the right combination. But surely even you must see that you've managed to invent a most peculiar principle here? Bum shoves OK, shoulders OK, Mats OK, traversing in from the side in order to reach down off the jug and feel the holds OK? But a LADDER? Oh no, Shark's crossed a line here..
... Would you prefer it if he ditched the ladder and turned this into a mutli-year siege, adding his own bit of wear and polish to the holds?
(Of course that won't happen now. I'm confidence he'll tick it tomorrow or on the weekend. C'mon Sahrk, fire us oldies up, and don't forget to let out a shout when you do it).
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I can't wait to use the phrase "I can't link the moves yet, but at least I've got my foot on the first rung of the sending ladder"
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Historically seem to remember there was a hold cleaning ladder at cragx ;D Is it still there??
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I can't wait to use the phrase "I can't link the moves yet, but at least I've got my foot on the first rung of the sending ladder"
Ah.. but the higher up the ladder the worse the fall...
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is anyone working on a guidebook to Peak District via ferratas ?
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... Would you prefer it if he ditched the ladder and turned this into a mutli-year siege, adding his own bit of wear and polish to the holds?
Well knowing Shark, that's how he rolls as a rule so I doubt I'll have much to do with it.
But I doubt he will significantly change the wear he exerts on this problem by using a ladder, and if he isn't careful (I'm sure he is) it could easily be much worse with. And yes, for me it's a piece of aid that crosses a line from the reasonable to the ridiculous. I'm not trying to stop progress here - I first did it above a bar towel as I did all those other HVSs I now happily pad out.
Basically the acceptability of any point of aid is inversely related to the number of previous ascents that did without it.
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How many pads is he allowed to use before it is no longer considered a proper ascent? :popcorn:
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Ten.
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He'll need the ladder to get on to the stack of pads.
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Would it be OK if he stacked the pads out in ladder format, so starting from some distance away he was quite low but by the time he got to WSS he was at the height of the scary bit?
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Balancing on wobbly pad stacks is all part of the game. Anyone who gets to the third sidepull on West side with nary a wobbly pad stack has my full respect.
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So would using a poorly made ladder be acceptable? It could break at any moment and is surely more dangerous than wobbly pads. Less effort to carry up there, less noticable and you get the full danger experience. Whatever the hell that is.
Ladders are just another tool for the 'job'. I'd use a helicopter if it increased my chances on something (and if my first name was Sheikh).
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So would using a poorly made ladder be acceptable? It could break at any moment and is surely more dangerous than wobbly pads.
I think I remember travs saying that he'd attempted to make his own cragx style mini ladder but that it turned out shit and ended up being an English 6c move to try to get balanced on it.
This was definitley acceptable and very funny.
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I think it's more a question of credit/respect (including self respect)/kudos, rather than ethics/validity. I'd say using a ladder doesn't break any pre-existing ethical 'rules' of bouldering at all but it does loose you credit/respect/kudos, the size of the effect is related to various vague factors, such as precedent (is it common practice on said problem), location, landing, problem type, height, popularity/status (of prob, though it arguably applies to the climber as well) and difficulty.
Applying this principle I reckon you loose more c/r/k for not topping out than for using a ladder. But it's all a matter of opinion (which you did ask for shark).
I've used ladders for some stuff, I wouldn't be seen dead using them on others. For weight and portability I personally rate ropes unless the prob is overhung.
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I'd use a helicopter if it increased my chances on something (and if my first name was Sheikh).
Great post. You've neatly illustrated exactly how it's the attitude, not the tools, that are the root of the problem here.
Satisfaction for most in climbing comes from measuring up to the challenge, not by reducing it.
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wooden ladders don't conduct power very well
with aluminium you run the risk of being accused of leaching power from the chap footing the ladder
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Only if you're barefoot or wearing horseshoes
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Satisfaction for most in climbing comes from measuring up to the challenge, not by reducing it.
I guess that's where we differ. The challenge for me, at least, is climbing it. I don't try to come up with extra rules to alter that challenge. (As an aside, I wouldn't actually use a helicopter - it might reduce other peoples' enjoyment. But it illustrated my point)
:off:
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Do I lose points if I use a ladder to dry holds? Done that in the cave a number of times, although I guess I don't have much respect left in that place to lose :lol:
I think it's more a question of credit/respect (including self respect)/kudos, rather than ethics/validity. I'd say using a ladder doesn't break any pre-existing ethical 'rules' of bouldering at all but it does loose you credit/respect/kudos, the size of the effect is related to various vague factors, such as precedent (is it common practice on said problem), location, landing, problem type, height, popularity/status (of prob, though it arguably applies to the climber as well) and difficulty.
Applying this principle I reckon you loose more c/r/k for not topping out than for using a ladder.
This is spot on IMO
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respect = a x (46 - number of days to do route / problem*) - b x (10 - number of pads used) - c x (6 - rungs on ladder used)
where;
46 = international standard at which the number of days to do a route becomes ridiculous, could be different for a boulder problem
10 = JB Peak standard number of acceptable pads
6 = assumed number of rungs on Shark's ladder
a, b & c to be defined
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Peak standard number of acceptable pads
No, no. This is not the standard number, it is the max before the 'laughing stock' threshold. Where n<3, no respect is lost. Where n=0, some is gained. Where n>3 respect is progressively lost until the threshold n>10=void.
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respect = a x (46 - number of days to do route / problem*) - b x (if( # pads > 10, laughing stock, if(#pads > 3,(10 - number of pads used), 0) - c x (6 - rungs on ladder used)
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Peak standard number of acceptable pads
No, no. This is not the standard number, it is the max before the 'laughing stock' threshold. Where n<3, no respect is lost. Where n=0, some is gained. Where n>3 respect is progressively lost until the threshold n>10=void.
Surely the pad to height ratio is a factor? Rule should be "Where number of pads in stack is more than height of problem in metres, ridcule may be bestowed"
Shite landings not withstanding.
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As much as I hate to doubt the shining bastion of ethical purity here, I'm not quite getting the problem with ladders here. Shark has decided to fully work this boulder problem, which after one has failed on the flash attempt and then on the subsequent "quick session" attempt, is an intrinsic part of the bouldering game. Similar to working redpoint routes, it seems that any sort of extravagent tactics would be fine as long as the end result is a clean ascent?? Dogging, standing on shoulders, aiding, skipping cruxes, pulling on wherever, top-roping (albeit for bouldering and with the increase in bouldering mats, I do appreciate the trend towards ground-upping highball problems that previously might be practised). Obviously the less dicking about the better, but I can't quite see how a ladder is a dick too far??
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a ladder is a dick too far??
Great name for a problem!
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Do I lose points if I use a ladder to dry holds?
You can try, but I've never found ladders to be that absorbent, with the possible exception of rope ladders.
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I love this forum. 7 pages on using a ladder while bouldering and it's still funny and making me laugh.
We are all absolutely insane.
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I'm bonkers me.
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Surely the pad to height ratio is a factor?
Not really. It's more a function of the average number of pads carried by your average punter vs optimum posse size to ensure the best vibe without overcrowding killing the buzz or greasing the holds up.
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respect = a x (46 - number of days to do route / problem*) - b x (if( # pads > 10, laughing stock, if(#pads > 3,(10 - number of pads used), 0) - c x (6 - rungs on ladder used)
So where does the "posse factor" fit in?
Is it an adjustment o tthe pad factor, or is it a separate factor on it's own? Does it apply equally to routes and boulders?
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Spotted yesterday in the Awesome Walls Stoke magazine collection.
(http://i.imgur.com/64a3vts.jpg)
What a hypocrite
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:o :lol: :clap2:
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(https://www.facebook.com/dylog/posts/10151868988667371:0)
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1780780_10151868988562371_1053114486_n.jpg)
FTFY
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Photoshop thread 2.0 ? :punk:
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That's so shit it's brilliant.
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Who's that on the ladder?
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Who's that on the ladder?
You?
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Who's that on the ladder?
You?
My arse isnt that big :)
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Total acceptance in Parisella's of the humble ladder. No eyebrows raised, no guilt complex induced. Helps a bunch in working Left Wall high to dry off the seeping Crux Holds and to pull on at any given point. No issues in my book
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There's also several feet of goat shit. No, I don't care what happens there either.
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Dissing The Cave is so snobby.
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and justified
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Is trying moves off a high horse allowable then?
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Is trying moves off a high horse allowable then?
Only off a show pony...
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Is trying moves off a high horse allowable then?
Only off a show pony...
I'd be saddled with guilt if I tried that...
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Come on boys lets reign it in a bit and stay on topic
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Shark was Chomping at the bit at WSS earlier this evening..
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I'm coming late to this (class) thread, has the horse bolted?
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I'm coming late to this (class) thread, has the horse bolted?
Nope, but WSS has been, so now you can use étriers. Good for getting a leg up on your pony too ;D
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I wonder what the Effics Police think to stacking pads as an alternative to ladders....
(http://www.planetmountain.com/img/1/21057.jpg)
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I wonder what the Effics Police think to stacking pads as an alternative to ladders....
How many pads is he allowed to use before it is no longer considered a proper ascent? :popcorn:
Ten.
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Ten? Is that folded? Thus making twenty?
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That pad stack looks well dodgy. I'd have padded out the possible fall zone with more pads.