UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Luke Owens on April 09, 2013, 10:15:47 am
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I did do a search and found the odd bit of info on this type of PE training but could only find one thread specifically to do with it which had little info.
I've read people have had good PE gains from doing this and I was wondering what peoples workout's are like? The ones I've found are quite different such as:
1. 30 Moves then 2 minutes rest x 5
2. 3 Minutes on 3 Minutes off x 10
3. 1 Minute on 1 Minute rest repeat until failure
What are your opinions on going until failure as opposed to getting pumped stupid and stopping for a rest just before completely burn out?
I know it's all relative to what you want to gain out of it. In my case I'm looking to incorporate this 3 times a week at home. I have a 20mm campus rung under my BM2000. Starting matched on the rung then moving up to the 25's then to the 30mm outside BM slots then back down to the rung, repeat etc.
I've climbed plenty of F7a's, a F7a+ and a F7b. I've only managed these because they've suited me well (not steep) and most have very good rest spots with short hard sections. I know I'd have no chance at a pumpy 6c!
I'm bouldering at 7A now and I know I'm strong enough for the moves up to F7b/+'s it's just the harrowing pump and powering out stopping me progressing.
Interestingly, yesterday my girlfriend and I challenged each other to see who could stay on the longest using the above feet on campus rung fingerboard combo. She managed 1 Minute 50 secs only having to dig deep in the last 10 secs. I managed 1 Minute 10 secs and I was gurning like crazy within the first 40 secs... and she "only" climbs F6a...!
I've chose this method of training due to being able to do it at home and having limited time. Any time I get to go outdoors i'll take rather than doing circuits in a gym for example.
It's an obvious weakness of mine so any advice would be great.
Cheers
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5 x 40 moves, 2 minutes rest between. 5 sets with 10 minutes rest between, doing this twice a week. Really helped on my last trip and something i'll be continuing to do, I don't find it too boring really. . .
I'm bouldering at 7A now and I know I'm strong enough for the moves up to F7b/+'s it's just the harrowing pump and powering out stopping me progressing.
Apologies if this isn't you but sorting your head might help? I found that teaching myself to climb effectively when pumped was really important, to be able to breathe and not panic becuase the lactic was coming on. I've always been jealous of my mates who 'ride the pump' and love the fight so I'm trying to embrace it. I don't know how you'd go about this on your fingerboard set-up though.
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5 x 40 moves, 2 minutes rest between. 5 sets with 10 minutes rest between, doing this twice a week. Really helped on my last trip and something I'll be continuing to do, I don't find it too boring really. . .
Thanks for the reply, that workout sounds good, as I tried the 3mins on 3 mins off and I could only manage 1 minute 10. Think I'd manage the 40 moves. Sounds good, surprisingly I don't find it boring either, feels quite addictive actually...
Do you complete the whole workout (feeling boxed I imagine) or go until failure?
Apologies if this isn't you but sorting your head might help? I found that teaching myself to climb effectively when pumped was really important, to be able to breathe and not panic because the lactic was coming on. I've always been jealous of my mates who 'ride the pump' and love the fight so I'm trying to embrace it. I don't know how you'd go about this on your fingerboard setup though.
I did wonder this and put it to the test when I went out on Sunday, I deliberately got on a pumpy 7a, which starts on steep moves to get the pump going straight away, I was making it to the last bolt and concentrating on fighting the pump to the point where I litrally came off because I couldn't hold on. I think the feet on stuff will be good for mentally fighting the pump too.
I'll focus on climbing efficiently when the lactic is burning too, as I have a tendency to go a bit scrappy with the feet when I'm on the edge!
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I've used the system that ste mac suggests, which is 1,1,4,6,6,4,2,1,1, switch leading arm.
http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/steve-mcclure-on-training-power-endurance/ (http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/steve-mcclure-on-training-power-endurance/)
It seems to work well for me.
However, this has wrecked my skin, particularly my pinky, as when super pumped towards the end, I start slapping and dragging heavily.
I've had to tape my pinky to avoid this.
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5 x 40 moves, 2 minutes rest between. 5 sets with 10 minutes rest between, doing this twice a week. Really helped on my last trip and something I'll be continuing to do, I don't find it too boring really. . .
Thanks for the reply, that workout sounds good, as I tried the 3mins on 3 mins off and I could only manage 1 minute 10. Think I'd manage the 40 moves. Sounds good, surprisingly I don't find it boring either, feels quite addictive actually...
Do you complete the whole workout (feeling boxed I imagine) or go until failure?
I'd be struggling to finish each set, after the 2nd or 3rd, but do finish them which seemed about right. I used to do 1min30 on with 4/5 minutes rest and do this 4 times but I couldn't really complete this at all, also got told the rest was too long.
as I have a tendency to go a bit scrappy with the feet when I'm on the edge!
everyone loves a good gipppin' finish
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I'd be struggling to finish each set, after the 2nd or 3rd, but do finish them which seemed about right. I used to do 1min30 on with 4/5 minutes rest and do this 4 times but I couldn't really complete this at all, also got told the rest was too long.
Does your workout take about 2 hours? Each set about 15 minutes x 5 plus the 10 minutes rest x 5. Sounds killer!
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it's never felt that long but yeah it should be that time, blimey :blink: times flies down t'wall.
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OK so I'm attempting to get some structure to my endurance training and at the same time trying my best to understand the energy systems.
I have a plan for working all the systems in different sessions it's just how to order these over an 8 week (to long to short?) period.
Please correct me if these are incorrect:
AeroCap - Low intensity - 20 - 30 minutes moving hangs resting on jugs to keep intensity low.
AnCap - 30 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 10 minutes complete 5 sets.
AeroPower - 20 moves, 20 sec rest x 3 - rest 20 secs complete 3 sets.
AnPower - 10 moves, 10 sec rest x 4 - 10 sec rest complete 4 sets.
Am I in the right direction with these?
I'm wondering how to fit these into a cycle. I was thinking:
Week 1 - 4 - AeroCap x 2/3, AnCap x 2 (per week)
Week 4 - 8 - AeroCap x 1, AnCap x 1, AeroPower x 1, Anpower x 1 (per week)
All these will be in addition to actual outdoor climbing twice a week. I'm hoping I can figure out something to train the above using the feet on fingerboarding technique in my previous posts.
I've no idea if the above makes sense, but I hope I'm in the right direction. Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers
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I find it quite hard putting this stuff together too.
But what I remember from Binney's paper (on the wiki)
Aerocap needs 2 months for adaptions to take effect
Ancap takes 4 months to take effect
Aeropow takes around 1-2 months and Anpow takes a similar amount.
So Ancap is something to be trained long term, Aerocap is a base on which to build a 2 month programme of aeropow, anpow.
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Hi Luke
I started doing this about 3 weeks ago leading on from the two month endurance thread. I started pretty much where you are, (sets of about 1.30-1.40 and totally blasted). I changed my target to 2 mins on 3 mins off, after about a week and a half I achieved a full set of 3 x 2 mins, then have been adding 15 seconds as I have got fitter and am now doing sets of 3 x 2.30 on 3 mins rest. The transfer to outside has been the amazing and I have found it has given me the extra bit to finish things off, rather than powerout and fall off the last hard move.
I have found the exercise gets more painful as you get fitter, as you can push further and further into the pump and it also gets more boring as you are on the campus board for longer. I have started to experiment with doing more of a routine to make it a bit more interesting and more like climbing, which has been good but you get pumped quicker again so may save that until I reach 3x3mins
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This look pretty good to me.
You have a fitness period which will help build and base followed by a higher intensity period.
I'm a believer that what you are training needs to be strongly aligned with your goals, otherwise you may loose direction/motivation. I say this because you are trying to train everything at once in the second 4 weeks when perhaps you could be more focused towards a goal?
Your sessions add up to 6 a week. this is a lot. Rest is important and 1 day a week doesn't seem a lot. Aerocap can be done at the end of a session giving you more rest days.
The adaptation times that racksteady quotes seem very long. I would say 4 weeks of laddering on a campus 3 times a week and you see a significant improvement.
go to it!
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Thanks for the responses guys!
Hi Luke
I started doing this about 3 weeks ago leading on from the two month endurance thread. I started pretty much where you are, (sets of about 1.30-1.40 and totally blasted). I changed my target to 2 mins on 3 mins off, after about a week and a half I achieved a full set of 3 x 2 mins, then have been adding 15 seconds as I have got fitter and am now doing sets of 3 x 2.30 on 3 mins rest. The transfer to outside has been the amazing and I have found it has given me the extra bit to finish things off, rather than powerout and fall off the last hard move.
That's great to hear you've made good gains so quickly! It's got me psyched as I've only started with the AeroCap and AnCap this week.
This look pretty good to me.
You have a fitness period which will help build and base followed by a higher intensity period.
I'm a believer that what you are training needs to be strongly aligned with your goals, otherwise you may loose direction/motivation. I say this because you are trying to train everything at once in the second 4 weeks when perhaps you could be more focused towards a goal?
Your sessions add up to 6 a week. this is a lot. Rest is important and 1 day a week doesn't seem a lot. Aerocap can be done at the end of a session giving you more rest days.
The adaptation times that racksteady quotes seem very long. I would say 4 weeks of laddering on a campus 3 times a week and you see a significant improvement.
go to it!
That's a good idea I think after the 4 weeks I'll adapt the workouts to mirror a specific route goal.
I've planned to do for the first 4 weeks the AnCap on it's own day and the Aerocap after each outdoor session. So 4 days on a week plenty of time for rest then.
Regarding the adaption times, if what Rocksteady has quoted rings true would that mean you would need to consistently train AnCap for 4 months for it to have significant improvement?
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Regarding the adaption times, if what Rocksteady has quoted rings true would that mean you would need to consistently train AnCap for 4 months for it to have significant improvement?
Everything that i've read says you'll adapt very quickly and plateau in 6-8weeks.
I can't find a reference for this right now.
However, this doesn't mean you reach your max ancap in 8 weeks. it means there's no point training for more than 8 weeks straight. do something else for a bit then come back to it.
Conversley, 4 months route training seems reasonable if you want to improve year-on-year.
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I do 5 mins on, 5 mins off on the campus board. Usually 5 or 6 sets, find this really helps.
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I am a big fan of foot on campus training.
The repetition of the same movement allows opportunity to study how movement works, and how the same move can be done in many ways.
Try adjusting the amount of force applied from the feet or from the fingers.
Try focusing only on transferring power up from your toes.
Adjust the speed of hand movement and see how this affects your results.
I found that by practising foot on campusing whilst focusing on driving up from my feet, and not pulling harder with my fingers, resulted in better performance.
Always aim to become more efficient and perform each set with less effort.
Maintain awareness of the whole body, and breathe steadily.
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Thanks for the further replies guys.
So, last night I tried an AnCap workout. It went like this:
2 x (30 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
3 x (40 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
Took about an hour in total.
I orginally planned for all sets to be 30 moves but I didn't feel it was pushing me enough.
From my experiance with it I did the first 3 sets feeling fine and not being too pumped then by the end of the 5th set it was getting pretty hard and I completed the whole thing feeling drained in the arms but overall not too tired.
Is the aim with an AnCap workout to progressively get more pumped to the point i'm fighting on the last set as above or should I feel pretty boxed after consistantly and fight to complete every set and need possibly more than 5 minutes between sets?
Just to clarify what the point of AnCap is, am I right in saying it's getting the body used to flushing out lactic acid much like interval training in running and other sports?
Cheers
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This look pretty good to me.
You have a fitness period which will help build and base followed by a higher intensity period.
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The adaptation times that racksteady quotes seem very long. I would say 4 weeks of laddering on a campus 3 times a week and you see a significant improvement.
Regarding the adaption times, if what Rocksteady has quoted rings true would that mean you would need to consistently train AnCap for 4 months for it to have significant improvement?
Sure, but campus laddering is only training 'power endurance' - the last 6 weeks of a periodised plan - so anpow or aeropow? This will improve in the timescales everyone's saying but the ancap and aerocap elements are different.
I'm refering to the timescales quoted on page 6 of this
http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf (http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf)
Ancap looks like it takes a long time to develop. It's close to pure strength I guess which takes a long time to build. Aerocap is quoted at 8 weeks adaptation time.
I'm not an expert, just quoting what I understand to be the foundation of most British climbers' understanding of this stuff.
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I'm not an expert, just quoting what I understand to be the foundation of most British climbers' understanding of this stuff.
Me too.
Just to clarify what the point of AnCap is, am I right in saying it's getting the body used to flushing out lactic acid much like interval training in running and other sports?
That's how I would describe aerocap.
P9 of the pdf gives an example ancap workout, 10-15 reps of a 5-15 move circuit (depending on intensity) and I just can't hold on any more.
Trouble is P8 is also titled anaerobic capacity and gives a totally different number of moves and rest. :wall:
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That's how I would describe aerocap.
Surely during an AeroCap exercise you stay below your threshold so not allowing lactic to build up?
I thought (and i'm probably wrong):
AnCap training get's the body used to flushing and tollerating lactic build up. You get pumped and then completely rest allowing the lactic to build up then flush out.
AeroCap training increases capillery size, delaying the time taken to cross your lactic threshold.
My Dad told me about this stuff years ago so i'm not sure if i've got the wrong end of the stick...
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I thought (and i'm probably wrong):
It's me, ignore me, I'm rushing and not thinking clearly.
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2 x (30 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
3 x (40 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
Took about an hour in total.
So doing the backwards math to figure out rest/work ratio, this comes out to about 45 minutes of resting and 15 minutes of work over the course of an hour? And the 15 minutes of work is broken into 15 different segments, meaning you're doing 30-40 moves in a minute followed by 2 minutes rest? Was this on a hangboard or campus rungs? If so, go to timed instead of moves as the moves are very fast due to no or very little foot movement. If not, then my math/understanding must be off, because 30-40 moves a minute is wicked fast climbing.
From a generic standpoint, anaerobic capacity should be long work at hard intensity followed by long rest. I would say generally a 1:1 to a 1.5:1 work to rest ratio, with the work being between 2-5 minutes depending on fitness, and the rest being 2-3 minutes depending on fitness. As you get fitter, you can decrease the rest to increase the workload or increase the work.
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2 x (30 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
3 x (40 moves 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
Took about an hour in total.
So doing the backwards math to figure out rest/work ratio, this comes out to about 45 minutes of resting and 15 minutes of work over the course of an hour? And the 15 minutes of work is broken into 15 different segments, meaning you're doing 30-40 moves in a minute followed by 2 minutes rest? Was this on a hangboard or campus rungs? If so, go to timed instead of moves as the moves are very fast due to no or very little foot movement. If not, then my math/understanding must be off, because 30-40 moves a minute is wicked fast climbing.
From a generic standpoint, anaerobic capacity should be long work at hard intensity followed by long rest. I would say generally a 1:1 to a 1.5:1 work to rest ratio, with the work being between 2-5 minutes depending on fitness, and the rest being 2-3 minutes depending on fitness. As you get fitter, you can decrease the rest to increase the workload or increase the work.
Thanks Sasquatch, I was wondering this regarding 40 moves only taking a minute on a hangboard. Didn't seem like enough.
Last night I did:
5 x (40 moves 2 mins rest x 4 - Rest 6 minutes)
Took an hour and a half to complete. 20 minutes actually hanging and 70 minutes resting!
When you put it like that it seems like I'm doing hardly anything but it definitely was hard work and I really had to fight at the end. I stayed pumped from the 3rd set onwards so surely this must be doing something beneficial?
I guess I'm not using the training time as efficiently as I can. What would you recommend from a time point of view? Something like the guys above have mentioned like:
2 minutes on 2 minutes rest x 3
This results in 6 minutes hanging and 6 minutes rest. Would this be more beneficial than what I've been doing as it seems a lot less work?
Cheers
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My bit...
With feet-on campusing (FEC) I'll pause breifly before taking the hold, slow down the movements, better simulate climbing.
With AnCap I always thought long rests were best. so if you on wall for 5mins then rest for 5-10mins (this is also what binney says). This is obvious when you think about it, you are simulating a RP (sort of) so you want the intensity to be high. The longer the rest the higher you can keep the intensity. It's a trade off between getting in lots of high intensity stuff and how much time you've got. If you have the time to take really long rests then you can keep the intensity high and possibly repeat the exercise more times.
If the rest becomes too short then you might start crossing over into AeroPow or Cap.
How fit you are will also affect the length of rest required.
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I wsn't really trying to say you had it right or wrong, or that you could be more effecient with your time. Just to be careful using moves as a barometer if you're on a hangboard. Go to timed instead as you really can't cheat it.
As Highrepute says, if you look at Binney's work he indicates a work rest ratio between 1:1 and 1:2. I generally aim for a 1:1.
The #1 thing I would probably change would be the time on the wall. I would go for 1:30 to 2:00 minutes as the shortest duration, so maybe more like:
5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes or longer if needed to depump)
or
5 x (2:00 on, 3 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes or longer if needed to depump)
Anyway, I do think what you're doing will help. As you improve aim to increase the hang time.
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5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes or longer if needed to depump)
or
5 x (2:00 on, 3 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes or longer if needed to depump)
Sounds good. I think I will try this :)
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Doing a predetermined number of reps, with timed rests etc, certainly has its merits.
Maybe just doing as many reps in one set to a certain level of fatigue is more beneficial? And starting the next set when you feel ready to go, rather than watching the clock, is best? Especially from a training perspective.
Letting go when you know you're tired ensures that technique can be optimised, and minimises the risk of injury. No one wants to get a strain training on a campus board. Total energy levels before a training session will differ each time, due to sleep, food, life stuff etc... I reckon it's best to focus on efficiency, momentum and technique. Increased reps and better performance, over time, will be a by product of this approach, and will leave you more redpoint ready, as climbing a route is a lot more than just banging out reps.
You can still record numbers of reps, and resting time, and chart your improvement.
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Hi Luke
the website rock climbing uk has a couple of workouts for foot on fingerboarding
by matt birch. Think basically you hold each position for 10 seconds then the last three sec of the 10 you take the hand off your moving and slowly pull up with your other hand.
I tried this when i was working broccoli but i also tried to replicate the moves and rests on broccoli, and tried to visualise the climb. I also trid this holding for 20 secs more like trad and the pump is awful. when you do the foot on fingerboarding i think you have to make it pretty steep to be effective or use crap holds. another thing im trying at the mo is encores but for 2 mins instead of one on the 25's and good slots and building to 3 hopefully( feet off ) hope that makes sense cheers matt
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Just did this yesterday on a fingerboard(no campus board available unfortunately). it feels like hell near the end, you really have to fight for it.
I started off with half crimp and transitioned to dragging when my fingers just couldnt maintain the position any longer. definitely a proper work out. just thinking about it gives me a flash-back pump.
Compared to 4x4s I've done it's not nearly as much a full body workout, but it's great training not just for PE in the forearms but also forcing you to breathe while maintaining body tension(f-in hard!) and climbing through a pump. It is amazing how deep into pump you can go doing this.
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5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes or longer if needed to depump)
Attempted this just now and it's the living end...I've never felt pump like it, I feel physically drained!
Managed:
3 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes)
Then had to change to
2 x (1:00 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes)
I'd like to aim to complete the full 1:30 on all sets, I'm guessing the best idea would be to increase the 6 minutes rest?
Just did this yesterday on a fingerboard(no campus board available unfortunately). it feels like hell near the end, you really have to fight for it.
I started off with half crimp and transitioned to dragging when my fingers just couldnt maintain the position any longer. definitely a proper work out. just thinking about it gives me a flash-back pump.
Compared to 4x4s I've done it's not nearly as much a full body workout, but it's great training not just for PE in the forearms but also forcing you to breathe while maintaining body tension(f-in hard!) and climbing through a pump. It is amazing how deep into pump you can go doing this.
I feel your pain...!
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Great to hear someone watched those finger board videos, especially after the site was wiped off the search engine map by Google :-(
The finger board PE sessions allow a much greater burn that any other PE work I have come across. For me they worked best when I did hard circuits first (at redpoint limit with long rests), followed by feet on campus boarding and then the finger boarding.
The key from what Steve McClure said was to use the smallest finger holds possible, that you use that still allow a long enough period of work. If the holds are to big then the burn isn't as great. The pullup motion was added to increase the burn. As I got better I played around with the fingers I used. So varied each time the hand came back on the board.
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A followup on the above. Instead of shortening the session to 1:00, use bigger holds and aim for the 1:30 if possible.
Other tricks I've found to make the session more "climbing-like" are to do a foot movement after every hand movement. If I'm doing the session on a fingerboard and feet on a chair, I'll raise one foot to the top of the chair back and set it back down, then do a hand movement. This creates a different contraction interval for the muscles which more closely mimics climbing. Similar idea if you are actually on a campus board with feet.
If all possible do the same hold size or sequence of holds throughout the 1:30. That way you have a consistant workload. So if you are moving on and off better holds, copntrol the time spent on the beter holds, so that the workout is consistent.
As part of a warm-up, I'll do a 30 second sequence followed by 2 min rest, then a :45 sequence followed by 3minute rest, then a 1:00 sequence followed by 5 minute rest, then on to the workout. That way you hopefully don't get a flash pump in the first set which you never really recover from.
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A followup on the above. Instead of shortening the session to 1:00, use bigger holds and aim for the 1:30 if possible.
Other tricks I've found to make the session more "climbing-like" are to do a foot movement after every hand movement. If I'm doing the session on a fingerboard and feet on a chair, I'll raise one foot to the top of the chair back and set it back down, then do a hand movement. This creates a different contraction interval for the muscles which more closely mimics climbing. Similar idea if you are actually on a campus board with feet.
If all possible do the same hold size or sequence of holds throughout the 1:30. That way you have a consistant workload. So if you are moving on and off better holds, copntrol the time spent on the beter holds, so that the workout is consistent.
As part of a warm-up, I'll do a 30 second sequence followed by 2 min rest, then a :45 sequence followed by 3minute rest, then a 1:00 sequence followed by 5 minute rest, then on to the workout. That way you hopefully don't get a flash pump in the first set which you never really recover from.
This is some great advice, thanks Sasquatch! Will definetly incorporate the foot movement into the workout. Your warm up sounds good, think I might currently be doing too much during my warm-up.
The only problem I have currently is I can't switch to bigger holds to complete the 1:30 in the 4th set as I'm already on the biggest holds!
I currently have a 20mm campus rung on it's flat (not incut) side under my Beastmaker 2000 and doing:
(Sort of relaxed half crimp/open grip throughout apart from the sloper)
Match 20mm Rung
Left Hand up to 20 Degree Sloper, Match.
Left Hand down to 30mm pocket
Right Hand down to 20mm Rung, Match.
Then repeat leading with the Right Hand.
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That's only part of the warmup, I'm a big believer in a solid warm-up.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Throughout the individual workout, the hold pattern should be the same, but change it up each workout if at all possible to reflect a wider range of grips and hand positions. Periodically come back to one that you've used before to test yourself.
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So I haven't been doing anything remotely related to endurance besides this foot on fingerboarding thingy 3 times in the past 2 weeks. (the moving your feet around suggestion is brilliant btw.)
Went to the lead wall yesterday and hung on longer than I've ever had! Very cool.
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So I haven't been doing anything remotely related to endurance besides this foot on fingerboarding thingy 3 times in the past 2 weeks. (the moving your feet around suggestion is brilliant btw.)
Went to the lead wall yesterday and hung on longer than I've ever had! Very cool.
That's awesome! Good to hear your benefitting from it already!
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OK, so the feet on stuff is going well although it's draining me of life.
Only managing one day a week at the moment. Do people really do this at the end of a session?
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For an added burn you might want to consider cutting loose after some of the hand movements, placing your feet back on and then continuing to work through your sequence. Alternatively, you could cut loose after every hand movement - puts a bit of interest into it.
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OK, so the feet on stuff is going well although it's draining me of life.
Only managing one day a week at the moment. Do people really do this at the end of a session?
Not the one you're doing. You're doing 15 sets of this in a session which is insanely long. I probably should have mentioned it earlier. When I've done these, I generally do 5 sets of 2min at max intensity so that I'm failing on the last set at about 1:45-1:50ish. My preferred workout for these is: warm-up, boulder hard for a bit, then foot on campus (2on, 5off) x 5, cool down.
This brings up a different point for training though. Everyone's body responds differently to training and recovery. Some people do well training smaller volume everyday, some do better with longer workouts and a day off. It's key to figure out for yourself how maximize the amount of quality training you can fit in a given time period.
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ran up against one major issue with the fingerboard version of this training so i think it needs to be supplemented with some other more sports-specific form of endurance training as well --either 4x4s or route intervals.
Basically, it's very hard mentally for me to make long moves while pumped!
I think this is down to there being very short to little movement with the fingerboard version.
It may also be partly due to another issue like fear of falling -- but while i can climb through a pump like crazy when i have short to medium moves, when i encounter a long move(which i feel fine doing without a pump) while pumped, it will totally throw me for a loop!
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I think this is down to there being very short to little movement with the fingerboard version.
I go from the 1st rung to the highest I can reach (usually 4) when feet-on campusing, then ladder back down - might help you?
When I get too pumped - leave out the big move and just ladder - to get really pumped.
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What size rungs are people on then..? I'm on 25mm and thinking they might be too big?
I've been at this twice a week for four weeks now and I'm coping with 3 rounds of
4x(1:30 on 1:30 rest) with a 7 min rest in between with a range of laddering,
touches, cross-overs, and varying the speed.
I am onsighting much better than I was four weeks ago able to recover on smaller holds. I reckon the realisation about how much you are able to climb while pumped has a huge impact, as has learning to breath properly. I trust too that real physical gains will come in time..!. On a side note, I usually have a shake out for 10 seconds of the 90 second hang. Is that bad practice?
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The size of rungs you need to use depends on the person. But if you are managing to shake-out on them then I'd say they are too small. Think I'm using 25mm and the only shaking out I can manage is a little flick between hand movements. Perhaps where the feet are make a large difference to how the holds feel.
I did try doing this on smaller rungs but found I'd power out before I got properly pumped.
You could extend the time on the rungs to 2mins, or reduce the rest down to 1min. The key is that you get royaly boxed after each set.
Shaking out isn't a bad thing. In fact it's pretty essential for climbing! If you are fit enough replace the the rests with shaking out on a larger rung.
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Just wanted to mention that I'm doing the foot on fingerboarding once a week these days and maintaining fitness, and even, slightly but consistently, gaining. The rest of the week I am generally evenly split between hard bouldering and moderate route climbing(where i dont really train, but just climb for fun)
My sessions are pretty short, i would do them at the end of a moderate bouldering session or a fingerboard session. 2 or 3 sets of 2 minutes on, 2 minutes off.
The beauty of this workout is that you can tune it to your goal - longer routes or shorter harder ones.
I tune mine for shorter harder power endurance which suits the routes in my area and it seems to be fairly effective - I can pull multiple hard(for me) moves much better now than ever before.
Btw, i am resting for about the same time i am on - 2 minutes. because i thought that was the standard for interval training for anaerobic endurance, but it seems other folks are resting longer?
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Just wanted to mention that I'm doing the foot on fingerboarding once a week these days and maintaining fitness, and even, slightly but consistently, gaining. The rest of the week I am generally evenly split between hard bouldering and moderate route climbing(where i dont really train, but just climb for fun)
My sessions are pretty short, i would do them at the end of a moderate bouldering session or a fingerboard session. 2 or 3 sets of 2 minutes on, 2 minutes off.
The beauty of this workout is that you can tune it to your goal - longer routes or shorter harder ones.
I tune mine for shorter harder power endurance which suits the routes in my area and it seems to be fairly effective - I can pull multiple hard(for me) moves much better now than ever before.
Btw, i am resting for about the same time i am on - 2 minutes. because i thought that was the standard for interval training for anaerobic endurance, but it seems other folks are resting longer?
Great to hear you're getting gains. I seem to be making great gains on one session a week too.
I'm still doing:
5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 6 minutes)
It's a long session and I do it on it's own day. The pump is immense and it's definitely working!
In the other thread I've posted "To Redpoint or Not to Redpoint" it's about a route I've tried recently. a month ago I was getting very pumped on it and powered out and Tuesday evening I sent it resting and shaking out most of the way up. Felt amazing.
I can't recommend this type of training enough. It's so simple too!
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Bit of an update. I'm doing:
5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
But still only managing it once a week as I get outdoors 3 times a week too.
The problem i'm having is the above work out is causing me to have forearm DOMS for 3 days afterwards and i'm starting my outdoor sessions still feeling it from the training session.
I'm looking to cut it down slightly and maybe do it on 2 seperate days. Not sure what would be best? I was thinking:
Day 1: 3 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
Day 2: 3 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
Total time's: On - 13:30 Minutes / Rest - 22 minutes
Or
Day 1: 3 x (2:00 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 7 minutes)
Day 2: 3 x (2:00 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 7 minutes)
Total time's: On - 18 Minutes / Rest - 26 minutes
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A snippet of what Ste Mac recommended to me if anyone is interested (pretty much the same as his various articles on the subject if you google around)
The reps and rests are longer than what you are doing, Luke.
If its outside redpoints I'd go with a hard redpoint style circuit that takes maybe 2.5 - 3 minutes all out effort, and then rest 10 mins. The rest needs to be long enough for quality burns each go, aim for 3-4 burns that are all good efforts. If your rest is too short your efforts will be short lived and you won't go into PE but just fade fast.
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Thinking about putting so climbing holds or a strip of wood above my fingerboard... Anyone else done this? Seems like a good alternative to a campus boar. But I've only got about a foot and a bit room... Reckon this is enough movement?
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Thinking about putting so climbing holds or a strip of wood above my fingerboard... Anyone else done this? Seems like a good alternative to a campus boar. But I've only got about a foot and a bit room... Reckon this is enough movement?
I've put a 20mm campus rung under my beastmaker. I use this for deadhangs and feet-on fingerboarding. I explained my routine using the campus rung in an above post.
Cheap and works well, you could definitely do the same with climbing holds though.
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Ahh shall read it cheers. How mic distance you got between?
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Ahh shall read it cheers. How mic distance you got between?
About a foot. Don't think it really matters. The bigger the space the harder the move!
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Ok man cheers... A foot seems sensible.
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one benefit of this type of training vs regular endurance training on a route is that you control exactly the type of grip you are training. with 4x4s, "doubles" or circuits you dont have as much choice.
One con is that with the fingerboard version you arent doing big movements so while i found i got pumped much later, it didnt help me make big moves while pumped because my body wasn't quite used to that, so circuits/laps/4x4's can still be useful in that regard.
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After mentioning the "powered out" feeling on my other thread "To Redpoint or Not to Redpoint" It's got me thinking about how many moves I'm actually doing on my project(s).
Instead of getting on my F7b+ project the last couple of weeks I've opted to get to different crags and get some quick ticks. Subsequently getting no ticks but failing so close to finishing the lines.
Last week I failed on the last move of a steep F7a+ and yesterday evening powered out AFTER the crux on a very short lived F7b. The length of both of these climbs and such my project above consist of about 10 - 20 moves in total, not many when you think about it!
The feet on campusing I've been doing has been:
3/5 x (1:30 on, 2 mins rest x 3 - Rest 5 minutes)
This is about ~50-60 moves per set and it would seem relates in no way to the actual routes I'm trying to get up...
I want my training to help me get up what I want to climb so is the above feet-on workout actually helping me get up these climbs or should I switch to something more intense like 30 secs - 1 minute of harder moves per set?
...or would it be more beneficial to do repeaters/deadhangs instead as all of the routes I'm doing/want to do are like bouldering on a rope anyway?
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Think less about the # of moves, and more about the length of time it takes you to climb it. I can assure you that doing 60 moves in 10 minutes is a very different workout than doing 60 moves in 2 minutes. That said, when it gets down into the "powering out" stage, I've always been of the inclination to stronger. Hence, my recommendation is to do deadhangs/repeaters.
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I don't know much about this kind of thing so hopefully someone can come back on it.
I think it was agreed these are basically Anaerobic Capacity workouts, in which case this is somethign you want to be doing for shorter routes in the manner you have (with Sasquatch's shorter suggested intervals), and somethign from which you have noticed benefits
However, you're saying you need more power endurance, specific to the type of routes you are doing, which are short and intense. So this would suggest Anaerobic Power workouts. Less moves, Less rest. Something like 4 x (4 x 10M // 20secs Rest), which might be a longer version of such things. Given you are describing routes between 10 and 20 moves this sounds very applicable.
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Quite funny you just resurrected this. I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training. Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing. Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had. It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves. So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it.
3min rest.
What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement. i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this. I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work.
Has anyone done something like this?
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Climbing?
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Quite funny you just resurrected this. I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training. Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing. Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had. It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves. So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it.
3min rest.
What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement. i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this. I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work.
Has anyone done something like this?
Yes, I do stuff like this, both as part of my warm up for campusing and to enable bigger moves, practice intervals on different grip types etc.
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Climbing?
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Yeah. But my wall has limits in terms of this type of training
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Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig btw!
A potentially more useful reply to your post: have you tried doing campus circuits? Definitely good for getting powered out, but might be too intense if you're going for 45 seconds. In the past I've tried 1-3-5-7-9, drop, repeat, drop, repeat. Rest. Repeat x5 or so.
I only dropped to preserve my elbows. I think ideally it'd just be up, down, up.
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Question specifically for Luke: how have you evolved these kind of work-outs since you last posted in this thread?
Shortly after I posted on this thread years ago I climbed my hardest route to date in a short PE style. I then stopped doing any foot-on campus style stuff and never climbed that hard again all of 2014 but got better at onsighting and switched to doing longer routes and aerocap became more of a priority. Short PE routes have never really been as much of a weakness to me than pumpy sustained routes.
This year I've just climbed loads and manged to do a new PE style route at my limit from just trying it a lot. Back when I was posting on this thread the foot on campus stuff definitely helped to give me the spike in PE that I needed to complete the route.
I found doing 2 mins on 2 mins off until I couldn't carry on for being to powered out helped a lot too.
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Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound like I was having a dig btw!
A potentially more useful reply to your post: have you tried doing campus circuits? Definitely good for getting powered out, but might be too intense if you're going for 45 seconds. In the past I've tried 1-3-5-7-9, drop, repeat, drop, repeat. Rest. Repeat x5 or so.
I only dropped to preserve my elbows. I think ideally it'd just be up, down, up.
No worries, I didn't take it as such. I haven't, but I really want to add in bigger moves than what I can do traditionally campusing. I find myself getting seriously pumped when I have to make longer moves and my hands are far apart. I think doing more really long pulls in training might help with this type of powering out. For example, I can run 5-7 laps on a 5.12 with smaller holds and smaller moves on a 20-30 degree wall and feel pretty steady, but I'll get pumped out on a 5.11 with big moves between better holds on the same angle.
Quite funny you just resurrected this. I have a trip for three weeks in October(combo work, family, and climbing), so I'm not doing anything too crazy before then, but I've been looking at ways to incorporate this into my training. Right now I'm looking at doing 2 days a week of foot on campusing. Day one will be classic 2min PE, but the other will be a new concept I had. It's doing a shorter set but with bigger/harder moves. So what I'm looking at is going to be something along the lines of:
5 sets of:
45 seconds x 1-5-9, down 7-5-3-1, repeat - feet on as much as possible, but if they have to cut to jump to 9, then so be it.
3min rest.
What I'm looking for is the repetition of hard whole body movement. i feel like regular foot on campusing tends to be so tick-tacky that it doesn't do this. I'm envisioning this in place of repeater type work.
Has anyone done something like this?
Yes, I do stuff like this, both as part of my warm up for campusing and to enable bigger moves, practice intervals on different grip types etc.
So you find it useful? I'm looking at adding in 1 day a wek of this.
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Yup, I use it as part of each session. I fond doing 1-5 and 1-6 useful prior to attempting 1-6 footless.
I also generally warm up doing 1-3-5, 1-4-6, etc with feet on (by stepping up prior to second move), feet cut at 1-4-7, then I start at 1-3-5 again but footless.
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Thanks!
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Nae bother.
It's really easy to make it as powerful as you want by allowing it down, staying square on, adding weight, or whatever works for you.
A campus board is pretty versatile (this is what you discover when your only board is a campus board )
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A bit long winded this but I'm just a bit curious...
After speaking to a mate at the crag on the weekend it got me thinking about my training and the training I did In the past.
I'm currently trying a short PE route at my limit that I've been trying on and off for a couple of years, usual story with me powering out on it.
My mate suggested I do some Foot-on Campusing - 4 x 1:30min-2min on, rest double the work time between reps, aiming to fail on the 4th rep. Reduce rest once I can complete 4 sets.
I remembered I used to do something similar to this in 2013 (as detailed in this thread) when I had my best year redpointing I did about 8 7b's some in a session and did my hardest route at 7b+.
In 2014 I switched to doing longer less cruxy, less PE based routes and went from onsighting about 6c to 7a+. No improvement in redpointing that year and did one longer 7b.
2015 was more of the same with longer routes and mileage and the odd redpoint of longer routes. No improvement in grade. I had a brief go on my current project that year but didn't get anywhere on it.
In 2013 I bouldered about Font 6C these days I boulder about Font 7A+.
I think I was under some misconception in the last couple of years that I needed to be "Fitter" or with a better Aerobic base and these short routes would be easier, also thought they would become easier now I boulder harder when the truth is the moves feel easier but I can actually link less moves these days than I used to. Plenty of people have said I just need to improve my AeroCap but I've done a lot of that in past couple of years laps at the wall, mileage outside etc and it's only served me better on longer routes.
So to get to the point am I just lacking PE massively and was the foot-on stuff giving me the benefit back in 2013? Back then I couldn't do long pumpier routes at all but now I can, but I seem to have lost all ability to do short sustained hard bits of climbing.
I used to do about 7 x 2mins on 2mins off in 2013 when I tried the same thing last night I managed 5 x 1:30min on 3mins off and failed 1:20min into the 5th rep, so something has changed...
PE style routes are what I'll be focusing on this year so if It's just a load of foot-on campusing that is required I'd be psyched.
On a side note i'm completely lost with the whole AnCap, AeroPow stuff, I've tried to relate it to my own climbing/training and the more I read about it the more confused I get.
One other thing I noticed is if I boulder I can pretty much boulder at my max after consecutive days on and have decent goes on problems all day as long as I rest in-between well if they're say 6 moves or less. If I go out for a day on routes or anything over 6 moves I get a good couple of goes then it all goes downhill even if I’ve rested a couple of days before.
I recently did left wall in the cave and that's pretty long but I'm pretty sure I did it in the end because I tried it so many times the moves became easier and not because my PE improved massively?
So does it look like I have a missing PE link? Would be nice to get out of a 3 year plateau on routes...
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What has your training consisted of this winter?
It does sound like your PE is lacking. Do you ever do circuits at the wall? I'm currently doing 30 move circuits at the top end of my O/S ability (and just above) with short rests after a winter of mainly bouldering and my route fitness is rapidly improving. I'm at a similar bouldering level to you and a month ago I was finding long F7a's a fight to onsight. Now I'm working a F7c project (22 moves to a poor rest, then 12 more moves to the top) and on Monday got back on a (very soft) F8a that I did a few years ago. Managed it with 1 rest so I'm not far off that level (note it took a total siege last time).
I've not done any foot-on campussing, just boulder 4 x 4s, 30 move hard circuits with short rests. I did do a fair bit of 15-18 move long boulder/short circuit sessions in the winter though, but mainly just bouldering and aerocap (20 mins at start of session).
p.s. hopefully one of the resident training experts will give some better advice....
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I am curious as to what extent subtle improvements in resting technique and mental "toughness" derived from this kind of training actually deliver the results rather than genuine physiological adaption?
I suspect to rather a large extent if you're talking about short term gains over a couple of weeks. Learning not to overgrip, learning that the first hint of a pump isn't Game Over, etc.
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What has your training consisted of this winter?
It does sound like your PE is lacking. Do you ever do circuits at the wall? I'm currently doing 30 move circuits at the top end of my O/S ability (and just above) with short rests after a winter of mainly bouldering and my route fitness is rapidly improving. I'm at a similar bouldering level to you and a month ago I was finding long F7a's a fight to onsight. Now I'm working a F7c project (22 moves to a poor rest, then 12 more moves to the top) and on Monday got back on a (very soft) F8a that I did a few years ago. Managed it with 1 rest so I'm not far off that level (note it took a total siege last time).
I've not done any foot-on campussing, just boulder 4 x 4s, 30 move hard circuits with short rests. I did do a fair bit of 15-18 move long boulder/short circuit sessions in the winter though, but mainly just bouldering and aerocap (20 mins at start of session).
p.s. hopefully one of the resident training experts will give some better advice....
Been mainly climbing on a board and doing 20 minute Low Intensity AeroCap and also 2 x 5min on 5min off AeroCap. Also I had loads of sessions trying Left Wall Traverse in Parisella's for most of the winter.
Did do a few weeks of 8 x 15 move AnCap circuits but nothing else route related. Never done any circuits of more moves. I have a really good 20 degree long board at my wall so would be useful for circuits.
I'm in a similar redpoint scenario as you as I'm trying a F7c with ~20 moves to a rest then ~10 moves to finish.
I've started the Foot-On Campus workouts again this week so it'll be interesting to see any improvement in PE.
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Luke, apologies if this is pointing out the blindingly-obvious but: have you considered designing an endurance training plan that mimics your 7c project, in terms of intensity, duration and quality of rests? How good is the rest on your 7c?
This ^^
One of my circuits is just about right - poor rest about 25 moves in. Yesterday I started trying to shake out at the end of the lap and then do a bouldery finisher as well.
There's a new rung ladder on the 45 at TCA Glasgow which people use for basic laddering (similar to foot on campussing) - I did a lap yesterday but I felt it didn't get me as pumped as circuits. I just couldn't hang on anymore - I guess more powered out?
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Luke, apologies if this is pointing out the blindingly-obvious but: have you considered designing an endurance training plan that mimics your 7c project, in terms of intensity, duration and quality of rests? How good is the rest on your 7c?
Haha, yeah that's blindingly obvious. I wouldn't know how best to set it though, harder or easier than the real thing? Easier and and do laps? Harder and try and redpoint it?
I never feel like I improve as much as I could If I just keep trying to plug away at something as opposed to doing something more structured.
I guess I'm looking for the best training in what I need to get up it.
I thought I'd be on form for to do it after doing Left Wall recently as that's 15 or so hard PE style moves to a very good rest then 8 moves to finish. But as I said before I think I just tried it that much the moves became easier.
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Just checked my training diary and it seems when I did Ring of Fire, a 30 odd move PE test, my training consisted entirely of fingerboarding and 1 minute foot on campusing reps in a 4x4 format. I guess this would have been before I built the board.
Quite surprised by that now as I know there were weaknesses in my climbing back then that a more holistic approach seems to be resolving but perhaps it works for specific styles or routes without all the other energy work.
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Thanks to previous contributors to this thread. I’ve neglected serious attention to this area of training. With minimal access to a route wall and pending gloomy weather, I’ve started feet on Campusing on my board at home. Well, half board. It only goes from 1 to 4 as it’s a fold down board in the ginnel. It’s stored up on the metal bars joining the houses and I fold it down when I use it.
It’s set at 15 degrees with 20mm rungs.
I use a small footstool under it for my feet. probably puts me at angle of 10 degrees. Having to bend at the knees for the bottom rung and being at full stretch for the top. Being at full stretch when pumped is hard but does replicate climbing positions.
I’ve been using an interval timer. I’m doing 3 sets of 6 reps of 2min on / 1min off. 3min rest between sets.
I’m getting pretty pumped and trying to get comfortable climbing in a lactated state. Something I’ve always never been fond of. ( :no: Take!!!)
I also used variations of speed in the laddering as well. I also hang on the 20mm edges for a few seconds to replicate trying to recover on less than ideal holds or clipping bolts on smaller holds.
So reading the previous posts on this thread is reassuring that people have benefitted from this and I should come out of lockdown with some gains in addition to fingerboarding.
Someone in thread also said they did bigger moves in addition to the laddering, thanks for this tip. I’ll take that into future sessions.
I guess as I get more conditioned, the next step is to shorten the rest between reps or between sets??
Any thoughts?
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Now we're speaking my language! When I did FOC, I started off with minute on, minute off x8. Ten minutes rest, then do it again until failure. As you get fitter drop it down to 1 minute on, 45 seconds rest, then 1 minute on, 30 seconds. Once you can do this easily you need to either speed up or add a bit of weight. Aim for a move a second (a metronome helps for this).
It is crushingly boring but gets you fit. Try and minimise time shaking out/chalking up.
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It is crushingly boring but gets you fit. Try and minimise time shaking out/chalking up.
I plug in my headphones so the music keeps me company.
So you recommend just banging out the moves and don’t vary the pace?? I don’t climb that fast even on easy ground. I’d thought specificity (pace of moves) would be more beneficial and transferable???
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I am normally a massive fan of specificity in training (crux replicas etc) but this is probably an exception for me. FOC is so measurable and easy to train that I would rather spend every possible second doing it getting as boxed as possible rather than practicing shaking out on a campus edge. If you can do 10 more moves over each set instead of shaking out, when it comes to an actual redpoint/onsight on rock shaking out will be a breeze. Presuming that is what you are training for!
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I've experimented with different length pauses. Think they all work different.
Long pauses do make it easier but perhaps build more low level endurance. Maybe good for onsighting?
Keep grinding out the reps on a timer so you're developing a pump but not totally boxed til the last reps is somewhere on the AeroCap/Pow border. Maybe work time determines where it actually lies
The real daddy is to go to failure every time, rest for as long as you climbed and keep repeating that til your times level off. You'll know about it after a couple of sets of that.
Guess it depends on your goals, do you have a route or style in mind or just after general fitness
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do you have a route or style in mind or just after general fitness
No specific route. Just want to be able to do more routes either onsight or in a single session.
Also to stop being a pussy the moment I get a little bit of lactic acid and yell out take.
This is the other element of the training, to be able to build mental resilience and fight harder.
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Id' say good for genreal fitness and it certainly helps with learning to fight harder, also helps you get to grips with the discomfort that being really pumped brings.
Good luck with it.
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Good to see this topic resurrected, as an old-school counter to the scary new ideas going on over on the RPs thread (although doing them tomorrow).
FOC is like the Carlsberg special brew of sport-climbing training imo. It simply gets you sickeningly boxed out of your tree really quickly and leaves you fucked for the next two days. It hones you to a sharp point ready to fight like a battalion of amphetamine-fuelled shock troops.
Conditioning yourself to fight the pump and cling on for dear life is what climbing at your limit o/s or r/p (or at least attempting to, before falling off, boxed) is all about for the sort of pumpy short to mid-length climbs most people do on most crags. None of that getting it totally dialled and cruising it with barely a flicker into the anaerobic zone.
The pseudo-scientists will tell you about the risks of over-development of your lactic production with concurrent underdevelopment of your aerobic and anaerobic capacities to deal with said lactic.
Ignore them, they probably have time to train 12-14 week blocks of energy system nonsense, aspire to climb further than 17 metres, and enjoy flavoured craft beers.
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Inspiring! Next ukb tshirt?
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People have a very short memory span. What would Ned say about foot on campussing...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CHgSvTYqabh/?igshid=4uw1p3onu26p
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Good to see this topic resurrected, as an old-school counter to the scary new ideas going on over on the RPs thread (although doing them tomorrow).
FOC is like the Carlsberg special brew of sport-climbing training imo. It simply gets you sickeningly boxed out of your tree really quickly and leaves you fucked for the next two days. It hones you to a sharp point ready to fight like a battalion of amphetamine-fuelled shock troops.
Conditioning yourself to fight the pump and cling on for dear life is what climbing at your limit o/s or r/p (or at least attempting to, before falling off, boxed) is all about for the sort of pumpy short to mid-length climbs most people do on most crags. None of that getting it totally dialled and cruising it with barely a flicker into the anaerobic zone.
The pseudo-scientists will tell you about the risks of over-development of your lactic production with concurrent underdevelopment of your aerobic and anaerobic capacities to deal with said lactic.
Ignore them, they probably have time to train 12-14 week blocks of energy system nonsense, aspire to climb further than 17 metres, and enjoy flavoured craft beers.
:agree:
I love foot on campusing. Best prep for hard sport i've ever done :)
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Yesterday was a two session day. Did max 7sec hangs in the morning then feet on Campusing in the night.
Just scratched my way through one set of 10 x 1on:2off. Usually do two sets.
I naively thought I would manage two sets after a finger board session on the same day.
How many sessions of FOC did people do before seeing any improvements ?
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I normally see quite rapid improvement but if that one session was significantly worse than others you've had just chalk it up to bad conditions/karma/fuelling/being tired and don't over analyse it. Might be due to being tired after max hangs too, although hard to say.
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An update: I’ve been managing 2 sets of 10 reps of 1min on/1min off. 10mins rest between sets.
So on the weekend I tried 2mins on/ 2mins off. That was another level of difficulty and pump I’d not had before. The 2min rest did very little recovery. It was a gradual decline from there on.
I managed only 5 reps, the best I achieved was 1min 40s.
Next time I’m moving the rest up to 3mins rest between reps and set out to do sets of 5 reps.
Definitely noticed that I can endure the discomfort a lot more now. Just need the weather to perk up so I can try some routes.
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I built a board in my garage. It's got 5 metolius medium rungs on it. I've got a couple of small toe holds on the wall. Size I put a rock shoe on for. I've only just started using it. Laddering up and down, leading with each hand and doing big moves matching and reversing. I don't know what benefits I'm getting yet but it feels a lot more intensive than just hanging. 1st time on it my main finger on each hand got blisters. Tape soon fixes any issues.
My next erection is going to be big :-)
Going to do a horizontal hand and foot jam piece
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Now we're speaking my language! When I did FOC, I started off with minute on, minute off x8. Ten minutes rest, then do it again until failure. As you get fitter drop it down to 1 minute on, 45 seconds rest, then 1 minute on, 30 seconds. Once you can do this easily you need to either speed up or add a bit of weight. Aim for a move a second (a metronome helps for this).
It is crushingly boring but gets you fit. Try and minimise time shaking out/chalking up.
For those of us not fit enough to do 1 on 1 off for 8 mins, would it be best to:
- extend the rest time and gradually lower it
- reduce climbing time and gradually increase it
- reduce reps and gradually increase them
Short on time at the moment. Strength feels okay still but I’d like to try and get a bit of fitness for some routes this summer. FOC seems like a good quick hit option…
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I would start with minute on minute off and go to failure, even if that's only 4 reps. 10 mins rest, go to failure again. Build up until you can do 8 reps each time consistently then drop the rest period. Sure others would do differently. You could also use the big rungs rather than the medium ones to make it easier.
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Cheers, I’ll go with that to start then. 30s on 60s off was fine for 8 reps (other than skin starting to hurt, but that’s just me being unconditioned).
I think the 1min on required more mental effort than I’m used to as well at the moment!
Hopefully if I can manage it twice a week then I won’t be completely shit if I manage to get out in the summer!
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Tape your pinky fingers! They get battered & calluses from FOC.
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Tape your pinky fingers! They get battered & calluses from FOC.
Good tip, thanks! I’ve got a blister on one joint after yesterday- shows how little I’ve managed to climb since having a baby!
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shows how little I’ve managed to climb since having a baby!
Your mobility might be a bit better what with all that relaxin in your system :clown: :sorry:
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I'd say a move per second is bit quick really. On a route you're not likely to go below the 2 second mark IMO and when endurance training I tend to aim for around 2-4 seconds contact on each hold as a more realistic time. Seems to transfer better to actual climbing.
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Depends whether you think it's supposed to be directly comparable to actual climbing I guess. I've never tried to make it so, it feels to me like if you wanted to replicate climbing you'd do circuits. Doing a move a second allows you to be maximally efficient, getting as pumped as possible in as short a time as possible.
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I think it's less about trying to be really close to climbing but more about a realistic contractile time. If you get really good at going for ages on 1 second moves but then spend 2-4 seconds on holds in actual routes then it's not going to transfer as well as if you got good at the slightly longer TUT. Just my 2 cents.