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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Danny on December 11, 2017, 04:39:55 pm

Title: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 11, 2017, 04:39:55 pm
Just an idle thought here about correlations between these three things. Would be interesting to get a spread of UKBers data on this.
For the bouldering grade, I'd  think it should be something like your *general* max grade. i.e. a grade you've climbed a good handful of, not your probably-soft best effort, with one move that totally suited you, 5 years ago.

Pullups:
~20
1-armers:
0
Boulder:
7C

Maybe non-integer values on the one armers are fine. Still 0 for me.


Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: galpinos on December 11, 2017, 04:51:16 pm
Pull-Ups
~8
1-armers
Ha!
Boulder
7a
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: twoshoes on December 11, 2017, 04:57:36 pm
10.
I can't even lock off on 1 arm.
7B

I blame heavy legs.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Ally Smith on December 11, 2017, 05:02:57 pm
15
Zero
7C (harder in Parisella's, especially if kneebars are involved...)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: kelvin on December 11, 2017, 05:26:51 pm
 Pull-ups - 2 (can do 2 in the Beastmaker mono slots tho)

One armers - can't lock off one armed

Grade - flashed 6B a few times, anything over that comes under your 'not allowed' rules
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: bigironhorse on December 11, 2017, 05:36:01 pm
~25 / 1 / 7B+

In case its of interest to anyone, I used to do a lot of pull ups as a teenager and I got up to being able to do 50 in one go around the same time as being able to do a one armer. My ability to do pull ups has decreased over time but I've always been able to do a one armer.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Fultonius on December 11, 2017, 06:55:22 pm
12
None  (weak shoulders)
7B
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: alx on December 11, 2017, 07:02:27 pm
Going to have to extrapolate here as I never go above 10 out of boredom.

~20 (10 with 20kg added weight)
0
7C+

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 11, 2017, 08:06:45 pm
I can do lots and lots of pull ups.
Last year I trained until I could do 3 sets of 3 one armers on each arm.
I stopped because I’d only really done it because I wanted to be able to do it and I had.
As TobyD can attest, I can do all kinds of tricks on Bars and Rings and Campus rungs and 45* boards and Finger boards etc etc etc.
But...
My 7C+ boulder projects held me at bay all year, until I gave up (until Spring, then I’m having that twat!) and my return to Sport has been, ummm, less than illustrious (?).

To translate.
I’m fucking strong.
I’m climbing like shit.

Actually, like shit on a shiny shovel.

I have completely revamped my training as a result of my crap season. I want one more 8a and I’d love to pull in another 8A before I call it quits (I actually care little about the style in which that is achieved, I don’t have a log book or even give much of a toss for ethics; I know when I’m satisfied with myself).

However, I am living proof (N=1 so as valid as any Homeopathy proof) that being able to do a one armer, or multiples there of, has sod all bearing on your climbing ability.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 11, 2017, 08:12:08 pm
What, like more than 50? My mind was blown at bigironhorse's 50 in youth. You might be overstrong for your grade, but you might not be as much of an outlier as you think. 7C+/8A is still fairly good going IMO. What's the proj?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Coops_13 on December 11, 2017, 08:44:23 pm
Pull-ups: ~25
One-armers: 1
Max grade: 7B+
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 11, 2017, 09:38:44 pm
What, like more than 50? My mind was blown at bigironhorse's 50 in youth. You might be overstrong for your grade, but you might not be as much of an outlier as you think. 7C+/8A is still fairly good going IMO. What's the proj?

You missed the bit about not even touching it.

Saddle Tor Traverse and Mako (coz it’s meant to be soft at).

It seems very much the pipe dream. Despite recovering a good deal of fitness and strength, I am unable to regain the ability I had ~2010/11 when I peaked.
That was living in Barcelona, climbing outdoors a lot (Bouldering only), running lots, minimal campusing and climbing indoors loads too. No “structured” training. Lots of press-ups.
I have shite foot work and (apparently) a poorly supressed fear of heights, that is playing havoc with my Sport (contributing heavily to my early and extreme pump and only time at height will answer for that. One day I shall be able to get more than three bolts up without clinging on hard enough to crush Granite, as I could in my carefree youth).
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: 36chambers on December 11, 2017, 09:54:43 pm
For the bouldering grade, I'd think it should be something like your *general* max grade. i.e. a grade you've climbed a good handful of, not your probably-soft best effort, with one move that totally suited you, 5 years ago.

Pull-ups: ~25
One-armers: 1
Max grade: 7B+ 7A

Fixed that for you :whistle:
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 11, 2017, 10:29:17 pm

Saddle Tor Traverse and Mako (coz it’s meant to be soft at).


If had your arms I'd probably drive to the peak and do the joker and/or similar 1-3 move burl-fests. Might see you on the moors sometime!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 11, 2017, 11:45:09 pm
Years ago I fell off Bored of the Lies 7b+ at Chee Dale Cornice, then an hour or two later found myself one arming the Weedkiller jug at the Tor.

I'd say the correlation is pretty much imaginary.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: highrepute on December 12, 2017, 08:08:43 am
10 / 0 / 8A

I'd say zero correlation. I'd suggest that getting on above 8A more peeps will be able to do one-armers but I don't think that should be an indication of causation.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Coops_13 on December 12, 2017, 08:49:01 am
For the bouldering grade, I'd think it should be something like your *general* max grade. i.e. a grade you've climbed a good handful of, not your probably-soft best effort, with one move that totally suited you, 5 years ago.

Pull-ups: ~25
One-armers: 1
Max grade: 7B+ 7A

Fixed that for you :whistle:
4 or 5 not that?  :furious:
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andymarshll on December 12, 2017, 09:02:21 am
Somewhere between 20 and 30
A bit of one
7C+

Used to be able to do three good one armers but I'm definitely bouldering harder now cos my fingers are a lot stronger. The hardest I've done was probably at my absolute nadir of one-armer ability cos I weighed the least I've weighed in a decade.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 12, 2017, 09:04:29 am
Years ago I fell off Bored of the Lies 7b+ at Chee Dale Cornice, then an hour or two later found myself one arming the Weedkiller jug at the Tor.

I'd say the correlation is pretty much imaginary.

Your anecdote is...anecdotal.

If correlations exist I'd expect them to be weak, with lots of noise. In the extremes, if you can't do any with two arms, you can't do any with 1. So far the only respondents who can do 1 armers can also do the most pullups. Correlations between 1 and 2s wouldn't be a total shock. Bouldering grade a tricky one, but as the highrepute says, it wouldn't be a total surprise to see a (weak) correlation with 1 armers in the higher grades.   

I didn't actually lay out any expectations in the first instance, and I certainly didn't imply causation. 
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 12, 2017, 09:08:15 am
Tautologous.

My anecdote is factual, the inference simple to make:

There's a gulf between climbing performance and specific limited range movements which does not allow for a meaningful correlation between the two.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 12, 2017, 09:22:03 am
'Meaningful correlation'.

And it's three. Between the *three*.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: turnipturned on December 12, 2017, 09:22:28 am
Pull ups: Not sure how this relevant to bouldering when its more than 12-15? But probs plus 25 never really tried. Can do 10 with 35-40kg added weight.

One armers: None ( From hanging totally straight), two with slightly engaged shoulders. (I also don't really try them, is there a technique to doing one armers?)

Grade: Max 8B+, General 8A.

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Teaboy on December 12, 2017, 09:26:07 am

As TobyD can attest, I can do all kinds of tricks on Bars and Rings and Campus rungs and 45* boards and Finger boards etc etc etc..
It must be quite the contrast of styles when you two train together, imagine how good a climber the composite of you two would be.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 12, 2017, 09:36:11 am
Pull ups: Not sure how this relevant to bouldering when its more than 12-15? But probs plus 25 never really tried. Can do 10 with 35-40kg added weight.

One armers: None ( From hanging totally straight), two with slightly engaged shoulders. (I also don't really try them, is there a technique to doing one armers?)

Grade: Max 8B+, General 8A.

Pullups: I was more interested in correlations with 1-armers. You're right that in the 20+ camp it's not likely to correlate to bouldering grade. Maybe sport if you're Stevie Haston. Also, well done on that last obscure 8B+ you did.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Luke Owens on December 12, 2017, 09:46:55 am
About 20
None - Can lock-off one armed very briefly
Max: 7B
Generally: 7A/+
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: abarro81 on December 12, 2017, 09:48:50 am
Pullups: don't know
1-armers: 0 from straight, 1 with a cheaty range of motion
Grade: the above 2 answers apply from when I was climbing ~7C to now (8B max, 8A/+ more normally)... so take your pick ;) Somedays doing 'most' of a 1-armer (but not the hard bit at the bottom) feels easier than others, but never have I been able to go up, down and then even make any headway on going back up again.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: SamT on December 12, 2017, 10:19:47 am
A mate years ago could crank one armers like no tomorrow, straight out the pub door onto some scaff.  Was probably only climbing e1, e2 at a push at the time. perhaps 6c on sport.

That always convinced me that it was pretty irrelevant with no correlation. 

I concede that some certain problems over ~8A are going to require one arm type lockability. But not if they're font slabs.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 12, 2017, 11:22:44 am
Based on the currently-tiny sample size of 12 (ish), grade linearly correlates with pullups. Any stats pedants out there can save the beration for a bigger sample...I'm just cocking about.

data:  pulls$boulder and pulls$pulls
t = 2.4437, df = 11, p-value = 0.03261
alternative hypothesis: true correlation is not equal to 0
95 percent confidence interval:
 0.06268649 0.86232918
sample estimates:
      cor
0.5931836


A saturating hyperbolic type relation might be a better fit. A base of strength (in the 1-10 pullups range) might relate to the lower grades
more appropriately. It's telling that a few of the better climbers have no idea how many they can do. i.e. it obviously doesn't matter at *some* point. Though I suspect those climbers can do quite a lot.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: mr chaz on December 12, 2017, 11:34:40 am
For the bouldering grade, I'd think it should be something like your *general* max grade. i.e. a grade you've climbed a good handful of, not your probably-soft best effort, with one move that totally suited you, 5 years ago.

Pull-ups: ~25
One-armers: 1
Max grade: 7B+ 7A

Fixed that for you :whistle:
4 or 5 not that?  :furious:

Do dynos count?  :tease:

10
1
7B
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: yetix on December 12, 2017, 11:41:50 am
pullups: 20 something last time I tried
1 armers: just about 1 with my left 3 with my right
max grade: 7B+
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: petejh on December 12, 2017, 11:42:01 am
Pull-ups: 35 underarm, 25 overarm. Used to be able to do a few more.
One-armers: 0. Have never committed any time to doing one, seems to be some myelination required as well as a base level of strength.
Grade: 7C. Hardly spend any time bouldering. Should be 8A.

'Could do better'
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andy popp on December 12, 2017, 11:49:55 am
15ish
A definite big fat Zero
7C+
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: teestub on December 12, 2017, 12:01:24 pm
2 arm: about 10 proper ones, although why a boulderer would ever try to train more is beyond me.
1 arm: 0, although I have considered trying to train to address this
Grade 7C+
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: joeisidle on December 12, 2017, 01:45:15 pm
Pull-ups: I once did 10 six years ago. Sporadic attempts since haven't yielded much above 5-6, so I suspect it's somewhere in the region of 8 now if I really applied myself

One-armers: as if.....

General max grade: 7A/+

Once every couple of years max grade: 7B
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: peewee on December 12, 2017, 06:54:03 pm
25
1
8B
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: jamesturnbull97 on December 12, 2017, 08:06:03 pm
9
0
8a
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: stokesy on December 12, 2017, 08:20:34 pm
Pull ups = about 12?, a few more back in the day
One armers = never been able to do a proper one
Max grade = 7B, not done many recently but quite a few in the past
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: HaeMeS on December 12, 2017, 08:25:38 pm
Pull-ups: 15 underarm, 12 overarm. Been the same since my teens but wasn’t climbing back then.
One-armers: 0. Not even close to moving upwards.
Grade: 7A+. Pretty solid. 7B impossible.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Probes on December 12, 2017, 10:22:48 pm
15 yr ago..
45
9 on right 4 on left
8a

now..  :blink:
25
2 on right 0 on left
7c+/8a
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 12, 2017, 10:38:52 pm
9! Chuff me.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: webbo on December 13, 2017, 08:39:25 am
35 years ago
30 on a regular basis,I may have done 50 once.
3 on right 2 on left
MXS sometimes XS
now none without something exploding.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 09:41:01 am
Approaching a semi-useable sample size and the correlation between pulls and boulder grade has strengthened a little. Probes, you're quite the outlier on the number of pulls and one-armers. I've also used you as a pseudo-replicate. If oldmanmatt could define 'lots' he might join you.

data:  pulls$boulder and pulls$pulls
t = 2.8255, df = 22, p-value = 0.009847
alternative hypothesis: true correlation is not equal to 0
95 percent confidence interval:
 0.1422133 0.7609981
sample estimates:
      cor
0.5160075

Anything with the one-armers is zero-inflated data. With that caveat, ones correlate with twos. Grade and ones don't correlate...although there's a superficial trend but again, zero-inflated data.


Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: GazM on December 13, 2017, 10:37:38 am
1 to add to your n:

Pull-ups: 12
One-armers: 0
Max grade: 7B
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 13, 2017, 11:10:21 am
We collect some similar data as part of the Lattice Training assessments, though it's not a good indicator of climbing ability in our experience.

I threw together a quick scatter plot of a subset of data that happened to be at hand. n=58.

(http://latticetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/grade-v-pull-ups.png)

We don't collect data on one armers because the vast majority of people can't do them.

My opinion (not lattice endorsed) is that if you're in the 15-20 bracket there's very little point smashing out loads of pull ups. Maybe if you're significantly under that there's a case to be made for doing pull ups as a conditioning sorta exercise.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 13, 2017, 12:36:20 pm
Since this is turning into a nerdy stats conversation -

Remus, you measure so many variables in your tests, have you every tried a PCA analysis?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 13, 2017, 01:16:06 pm
Remus, you measure so many variables in your tests, have you every tried a PCA analysis?

Yep :) In the models I've put together it wasn't particularly helpful, though, as it basically just picks out the factors that we already know are useful (finger strength, max moves etc.) and pretty much ignores lots of the other factors. My personal opinion is that there's so much variability in the underlying measure of climbing ability (i.e. grades) that it makes it very difficult to investigate effects that are relatively subtle. That's not to say those other factors aren't interesting to consider of course, but we're not at the stage where we can say "You could climb 9b, you just need to do an extra 10 moves on the lattice board, another 6 pull ups and hold a front lever for more than 10 secs."

Maybe one day everyone will start using UKC/8a.nu and we'll be able to use something other than 'best redpoint' as a measure of climbing ability!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: duncan on December 13, 2017, 01:27:47 pm
I have been a 20 pull-up Severe (1A?) wad and 3 pull-up E6/7b/6C punter. I concluded pull-ups were not that helpful for me.

It seems to me the two groups likely to derive greatest performance benefit from pull-ups (and weight lifting in general) are women and old men. The two groups least likely to do such a thing! Since I now find myself in one of these categories I've started doing pull-ups and pumping iron a little. 

Remus, I expect you've done regression analyses, how much of the total variation in RP grade can your models describe?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 13, 2017, 01:30:45 pm
Remus, you measure so many variables in your tests, have you every tried a PCA analysis?

Yep :) In the models I've put together it wasn't particularly helpful, though, as it basically just picks out the factors that we already know are useful (finger strength, max moves etc.) and pretty much ignores lots of the other factors. My personal opinion is that there's so much variability in the underlying measure of climbing ability (i.e. grades) that it makes it very difficult to investigate effects that are relatively subtle. That's not to say those other factors aren't interesting to consider of course, but we're not at the stage where we can say "You could climb 9b, you just need to do an extra 10 moves on the lattice board, another 6 pull ups and hold a front lever for more than 10 secs."

Maybe one day everyone will start using UKC/8a.nu and we'll be able to use something other than 'best redpoint' as a measure of climbing ability!

Fair enough, and I agree about the scatter in your measure. There's also the issue of features that will be important but are harder to quantify, such as flexibility and climbing efficiency!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 02:15:09 pm
<shameless screengrab and datathief> JK.
Given that 5 is your minimum the questions about what happens at the bottom end remain. I know a few people who climb who can't do one.

Stats nerdery:

Never been a fan of PCA myself, and with tools like NLMEEs about these days you can handle quite complex datasets and make meaningful predictions. Although I admit that I find such models deeply frustrating more often than not. 

We collect some similar data as part of the Lattice Training assessments, though it's not a good indicator of climbing ability in our experience.

I threw together a quick scatter plot of a subset of data that happened to be at hand. n=58.

(http://latticetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/grade-v-pull-ups.png)

We don't collect data on one armers because the vast majority of people can't do them.

My opinion (not lattice endorsed) is that if you're in the 15-20 bracket there's very little point smashing out loads of pull ups. Maybe if you're significantly under that there's a case to be made for doing pull ups as a conditioning sorta exercise.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 02:28:09 pm
More stats. The one-armers are a classic eg of a zero-inflated Poisson distribution by the looks of it. If I was working this kind of data I'd collect that info despite the pile of zeros (which are pretty common in the likes of ecological survey data, for example) because the tools are available to handle that kind of distribution.   
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Fiend on December 13, 2017, 03:09:16 pm
18 (new post-DVT pb)
0 (never going to happen)
7A+

Stick that in your pipe.

As always I'm willing to bet my anal beard that people with high bouldering grades and low pull-up tallies 1. never try pull-ups apart from once a year for the novelty e.g. threads like this and 2. have almost identical pull-up tallies on tiny edges as well as bars.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 13, 2017, 04:05:48 pm
Given that 5 is your minimum the questions about what happens at the bottom end remain. I know a few people who climb who can't do one.

The lack of climbers with low numbers of pull ups is because we have a soft cut off for the grade at which we'll assess people, so our dataset doesn't have many climbers in the french 4-5 sorta range (who would be prime candidates for not being able to do many pull ups). There's also fewer women in there than we'd like, which would be another group Id suspect you'd see low numbers of pull ups.

Quote
More stats. The one-armers are a classic eg of a zero-inflated Poisson distribution by the looks of it. If I was working this kind of data I'd collect that info despite the pile of zeros (which are pretty common in the likes of ecological survey data, for example) because the tools are available to handle that kind of distribution.

That's a good point. It's tricky from a practicality point of view though. People only have so much time/energy to put towards an assessment so we've got to choose the tests we do fairly carefully.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: SA Chris on December 13, 2017, 04:39:05 pm
Where's slackline when you need him.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: battery on December 13, 2017, 04:58:24 pm
To add to the female data set -

1 if I slightly jump into it (3 is the max I ever achieved)
0 (don't make me laugh!)
would expect to do 6b on most trips outside 7a is the max grade I've ever climbed.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 13, 2017, 05:23:58 pm
Where's slackline when you need him.

Probably fuming that no-ones setup a google form to collect all the data  :slap:
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 06:00:34 pm
Quote
That's a good point. It's tricky from a practicality point of view though. People only have so much time/energy to put towards an assessment so we've got to choose the tests we do fairly carefully.

Fair enough I'd say. Don't want to be wrecking your participants!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 06:02:13 pm
Where's slackline when you need him.

Probably fuming that no-ones setup a google form to collect all the data  :slap:

I was expecting to be chastised for my lackadaisical stats.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 06:14:57 pm
UKB data. AKA, the influence of Probes. Grey scribbly shit is bootstrapped model fits.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ecoFQR/Rplot.png)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: cheque on December 13, 2017, 06:54:42 pm
So if I want to climb 8a, 10a or 12b then I need to be able to do 25 pull-ups?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: r-man on December 13, 2017, 06:57:23 pm

As always I'm willing to bet my anal beard that people with high bouldering grades and low pull-up tallies 1. never try pull-ups apart from once a year for the novelty e.g. threads like this and 2. have almost identical pull-up tallies on tiny edges as well as bars.

And 3. Despite the instructions have still put their max grade ever, rather than general max. You know who you are.  ;)  :lol:

I'd contribute but I have no useful data. No idea how many pull-ups I can do. I'm a boulderer - why would I do pull-ups?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 13, 2017, 07:03:15 pm
So if I want to climb 8a, 10a or 12b then I need to be able to do 25 pull-ups?

Yes. Get going.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: 36chambers on December 13, 2017, 08:09:49 pm
And 3. Despite the instructions have still put their max grade ever, rather than general max. You know who you are.  ;)  :lol:

my thoughts exactly ;D
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: teestub on December 13, 2017, 09:01:38 pm
2 comments on the thread but no data for yourself 36chambers?

I wonder if '% bodyweight added/subtracted to do a max of 5 pullups' or similar would give a better correlation?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: 36chambers on December 13, 2017, 10:13:53 pm
2 comments on the thread but no data for yourself 36chambers?

Unfortunately it's been over 3 years since I've been able to do pull ups without my elbows imploding so I have no idea how many I can do :boohoo:
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 13, 2017, 10:21:19 pm
2 comments on the thread but no data for yourself 36chambers?

Unfortunately it's been over 3 years since I've been able to do pull ups without my elbows imploding so I have no idea how many I can do :boohoo:

Well, that explains your (?) face in your profile pic...
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Oldmanmatt on December 13, 2017, 10:45:24 pm
And 3. Despite the instructions have still put their max grade ever, rather than general max. You know who you are.  ;)  :lol:

my thoughts exactly ;D

True...

But...

I kinda have a problem with this.
This is one of those things that is best summed by “it depends” and is going to be different in definition for everyone.

To illustrate, when I boulder, I usually climb alone. I rarely climb many problems. 9.99999/10 I warm up by pratting around/doing pull ups on differing holds/ easy trav with exagerated moves and then batter my head against the current project. Often thats done with a timer, 3minutes trying a move, 2min rest, x=n attempts, five minute rest, on to next move; until wired then repeat process for linkups etc etc.
As you can imagine this is not an approach conducive to social inteaction.
So, when climbing for fun (as apposed to satisfaction), with others, I’m not exactly “in the zone”...

There are reasons for this, there are people who occasionally dip into this forum, who will recall with a wry grin my ability to have epic tantrums when things become competitive and my utter inability to avoid competing. I have mellowed, but principly by avoiding the issue.

On the other hand, I have never flashed a 7B on any rock type.
And some I couldn’t master after several sessions.
Then there’s a certain 6B at Savasona that I never could finish. Too highball.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Sasquatch on December 14, 2017, 01:21:00 am
12

0 (not even a 1-arm lockoff)

8A

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: mde on December 14, 2017, 08:25:56 am
~14

0 (on a bar/rings can lock off for a few seconds)

7A

Note: I'm not much of a boulderer though, i.e. only boulder for training having fun on bad weather days (mostly indoors) and never chased grades, pretty much suck at any dynamic / modern comp style / very steep stuff that nowadays abounds indoors (but still do 7A in this style). I'm a typical rock climber adapted to thin slightly overhanging terrain where I regularly climb 8a/8a+ and 8b+ max.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Hamfunk on December 14, 2017, 08:53:19 am
More data for you Danny...

~14

0 - I did 0.8 on one arm during the summer on a low gravity day. Otherwise I can lock at various positions.

7B+

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 14, 2017, 11:33:11 am
Hot mess of a bootstrapped quadratic with the extra data added. Gives a clear indication of the influence of outliers (1-2 pullups and 45 pullups) on the relationship. When they're not sampled in the boot, the relationships can change dramatically—confidence intervals would be much cleaner, but would obscure that observation. Competitive with the linear model, though both aren't ideal.

(https://image.ibb.co/fAgqAR/Rplot01.png)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: petejh on December 14, 2017, 11:55:27 am
Can't believe you used V-grades  ::)


edit: I'd be interested to see a correlation between bodyweight and max number of pull-ups.

bw: 65kg
pull-ups (overarm): 25
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: kelvin on December 14, 2017, 12:23:17 pm
12

0 (not even a 1-arm lockoff)

8A

See, this cheers me up a lot - it's been obvious on Powerclub how strong you are and then it turns out you can't lockoff one armed. So I've got massive room for improvement without worrying about pull-ups, I just need to get the finger strength back up again.

I'm not sure much of anything can be read into all the data but I am generally surprised how few all the 7C/8A wads can do.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: slackline on December 14, 2017, 01:02:42 pm
edit: I'd be interested to see a correlation between bodyweight and max number of pull-ups.

I collected body weight and height as well as pull-ups and various other responses when I setup and ran the Benchmarking survey (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20900.0.html), but never compared weight/BMI to pull-ups directly in the summary (https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4w0ca2012z5z9p/ukbenchmarking.pdf?dl=0).  I would have preferred to have collected waist-hip ratio as its more useful than BMI, particularly in fit people, but decided it was going to be subject to a large amount of measurement error.

Pretty straight-forward to setup a survey to collect the data in a format that is much easier to use and subsequently summarise using Google Forms which saves the ballache (and error prone) method of reading through replies here and typing them out into whatever software is then used.  :slap:
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 14, 2017, 01:12:11 pm
edit: I'd be interested to see a correlation between bodyweight and max number of pull-ups.

Your wish is my command.

(http://latticetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/weight-vs-pull-ups.png)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andy_e on December 14, 2017, 01:23:19 pm
Am I the only one thinking that all of the correlations shown so far show no correlation at all? Give me some r2 values.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: petejh on December 14, 2017, 01:26:39 pm
Thanks!

Guessing most of the 'dots' below '10' could be coloured pink and the ones above '10' blue?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Rocksteady on December 14, 2017, 01:30:16 pm
Pull ups: can currently do about 18. Used to be able to do 30. At that time was a 5+ boulderer, mid 6s route climber.

One armers: 1 on each arm with an engaged shoulder. Have sometimes been able to start a second one.

Boulder grade: 7A. Probs only consistently would tick 6C in a few goes though. Route grade consistent 7b in a few goes.

My thoughts on climbing grade is it will correlate most to amount of time spent climbing/training per week, second most to finger strength, and third to core strength/stability.

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: k2ted on December 14, 2017, 02:23:34 pm
Pull ups - 12 good ones
One armed - not a chance!
V5 normal grade
Max grade V6

Weight - 85kg
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 14, 2017, 02:50:04 pm
Am I the only one thinking that all of the correlations shown so far show no correlation at all? Give me some r2 values.

Typical frequentist comment  :) ...did you not see the massive red clusterf*** of a plot? That's all the evidence I need that the data are poorly described by the model. Just cocking about as data is added. I'm sure the r^2 is <.5.

It has been qualitatively revealing to see the range of numbers, especially the 10, 0, 8A type ones.   

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andy popp on December 14, 2017, 03:48:30 pm
My thoughts on climbing grade is it will correlate most to amount of time spent climbing/training per week, second most to finger strength, and third to core strength/stability.

Doesn't technique/skill come ahead all of those factors?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: highrepute on December 14, 2017, 04:07:35 pm
It has been qualitatively revealing to see the range of numbers, especially the 10, 0, 8A type ones.   

I suppose my definition of what a pull-up is probably very strict. I always try to accelerate upwards as fast as I can, lower-down fairly slowly and start/end each pull with straight arms. And I only realised this week that I've been cheating the whole time - I now do them in tucked position (knees held in front) as this prevents leaning past the first bit - if I used that figure it'd be more like 6.

On the girls v boys thing. My female partner could do more than me last time we checked.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: remus on December 14, 2017, 05:45:43 pm
My thoughts on climbing grade is it will correlate most to amount of time spent climbing/training per week, second most to finger strength, and third to core strength/stability.

Doesn't technique/skill come ahead all of those factors?

Presumably 'time spent climbing/training per week' is a pretty good approximation to that? Though admittedly if you're only training all the time your technique is going to suffer.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andy popp on December 14, 2017, 05:59:29 pm
My thoughts on climbing grade is it will correlate most to amount of time spent climbing/training per week, second most to finger strength, and third to core strength/stability.

Doesn't technique/skill come ahead all of those factors?

Presumably 'time spent climbing/training per week' is a pretty good approximation to that? Though admittedly if you're only training all the time your technique is going to suffer.

They're related perhaps, but I'm not convinced about how strongly. Frequent and regular climbing may be necessary to developing a high level of technique, but is it sufficient? Some keen, regular climbers remain complete duffers in terms of technique. And some climb beautifully from virtually the first time they touch rock.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Fultonius on December 15, 2017, 07:55:37 am
Have any of you lot heard Tom & Olli's latest podcast on training beta podcasts?

Apparently height makes a huge difference which could further skew any pull-up/grade correlation.  For those who haven't listened, the quick summmary (as far as I understood at 4am when I couldn't sleep...) was:

The taller you are the less finger strength (and they said all other "markers" other than core strength) you need to climb a certain grade. Or put another way:

Say there was a correlation between pull ups and grades and that the model seemed do point to 8A climbers roughly being able to do, say, 20 pullups. There would be a fair bit of height based scatter as shorter people who climb 8A may, for example, need to be able to do 22, whereas taller people would only need to be able to do 18.

Worth a listen.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Murph on December 15, 2017, 08:57:10 am
The info from Tom and Ollie was great, but I find it painful listening to Neely not knowing what to ask. IIRC, according to T&O, tall people need more core but apart from that they've got it easier.

Another datapoint,

PUs - 15 (estimate based on doing 10 very strict ones a couple of months later at 5kgs heavier bodyweight)
OAP - never even engaged at the bottom
Regular max - 7B

It's a fun little exercise this, but so much depends on what various people consider a pull up as well as the tactics, talent and so on employed to tick whatever bit of rock.

Would be great if someone had the knowledge to set up a survey to capture all the useful anthropomorphic data, height weight, waist (I'd say easier to record than waist to hip), strict pull ups, etc.

Hours spent climbing or years spent climbing would be pretty useless though I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Fiend on December 15, 2017, 09:12:52 am
Fantastic. Tall people being cheating cunts 200% confirmed, at last.  :2thumbsup:

Can everyone please repost their results to include "Pull-ups on a standard 1st joint edge". This would be enlightening.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: User deactivated on December 15, 2017, 09:29:17 am
~15
0 - Have been able to do them in the past.
8B/+. All route length though.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: sxrxg on December 15, 2017, 09:30:03 am
I suspect I might be a bit of an outlier.

Pull ups: on a bar 8 if I really try hard. (can also do 5 on small beastmaker 2000 crimps though)

One armers: a jumpy one on each arm (bottom in cut rung of beastmaker 2000)

Regular max: have done a few new 7c's this year

Used to be a able to do 20 pull ups and one armers with much better form  (on a bar) when I was younger however I was struggling to climb 7a at the time. Now I have a family and climb much less however try really hard whenever I do and am climbing much harder. It seems to me that as I have got older I understand climbing better and don't spend as long trying moves I have no chance of doing, I realise this much quicker now and instead find new beta that works for me (think this is key) as often videos/other people do moves in ways I find hard/impossible. We all have our strengths in climbing and sometimes you need to be confident in your own beta even if others dismiss it, I have found this much easier to do as I have got older. Further to this I now also have a new found ability to commit and keep going even if I think I don't think I have a chance, this focus and not thinking about the fall potential or anything else is something I struggled to click into when younger whereas I now have the ability to tap into it more often (I still don't manage it every session though - especially not when stressed with work/life). Basically I think pulls ups on a bar are useless as a measure of how well someone is bouldering. I do think however there is more of a cross over between pull up ability on a small crimp and bouldering and this is what I focus on when training, not that I am doing much at the moment!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Fiend on December 15, 2017, 09:34:11 am
Strong words there srrxgxrxg.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 10:03:54 am
In defence of tall people, it's obvious that it's much harder to bosh out the pullups when tall. You've got to move more weight (on average) a greater distance with a greater mechanical disadvantage. I'm 193 cm and 85 kg. I work for my 20 pullups. Though on what highrepute says, my pullups are worth shit.

We have a number of physicists on the forums...it would be interesting to see a napkin prediction of how work done to do a pullup scales with height.

I've often thought that a better way of looking at the height = cheating debate is via the distribution of relative difficulty of moves between tallies and shorties. It's obvious when moves are dramatically easier for tallies, but I think these moves are in the minority for *most* styles. In contrast, many—perhaps a majority—of moves are probably very slightly harder for tallies (think resistant sequences on small holds).     
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: andy_e on December 15, 2017, 10:08:48 am
Not sure it's necessarily height. Small folk with gorilla-style ape indices may have to do more work relative to their height because of longer lever lengths. This is a hypothesis, not a fact.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: teestub on December 15, 2017, 10:20:23 am

I've often thought that a better way of looking at the height = cheating debate is via the distribution of relative difficulty of moves between tallies and shorties. It's obvious when moves are dramatically easier for tallies, but I think these moves are in the minority for *most* styles. In contrast, many—perhaps a majority—of moves are probably very slightly harder for tallies (think resistant sequences on small holds).     

Not sure how this correlates with what the Lattice data show: that you can be weaker in every metric (except core) as a taller person to climb a given grade.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 11:04:06 am
If the implication is causation I don't agree. Are you saying shorties *have* to be stronger to climb a given grade? And what is this grade? The max redpoint that completely suited your shape (not seen the lattice data)? You can't disregard the fact that for almost every climbing type measure of strength it will be easier for shorter (i.e. mostly lighter) people to achieve a certain benchmark. I obviously speculate on the distribution of moves thing...a top down approach would be to look at the height distribution of elite climbers vs the general population—'tall' in climbing is not always the same as tall in everyday life (though I am both). More to the point, 'heavy' in climbing based on slackers' benchmarking data looks to be in the 80-90 kg bracket. No where near what I'd call heavy in the general pop, even disregarding obese peeps.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: teestub on December 15, 2017, 11:24:27 am
Hopefully Remus or Tom R will pop up in a minute to spray us down with some stats!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 11:42:23 am
I gladly await a showering from the lattice overlords.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Murph on December 15, 2017, 11:52:49 am
It's correlation and we can only speculate as to the causal chain, but my money is on:

Strong -> 8A...

...being a lot more likely than...

...8A -> Strong

The relative merits of strength, height, core etc are simply the factors that fit the grade, so if you have max hang as a % of bodyweight you would predict a higher max grade for a tall person than for a short person. We don't need to make a value judgement about why that is, it just is. (Of course we all know it's because of cheating...)

Of course, as everyone knows, achieving bodyweight% feats of strength is easier for short people than tall. Just look at weight lifting records if you don't believe me. So this doesn't strictly mean that a given grade is easier/harder for the average tall guy in the general population.

And yeah 80 or 90kgs isn't heavy compared to the average fat knacker of course, but we aren't talking about the average person - T&O haven't looked at even the average climbing punter far less the average non-climber.

At the extreme of what a non-climber can climb Im reminded of this video about a calisthenics (whatever that means) guy who can clearly do a lot of pull ups but would probably be on the bottom right of one of those scatter plots.

https://youtu.be/8fBrWAeB0Zo
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Nibile on December 15, 2017, 11:58:13 am
Despite my love for pull ups and one armers (despite the fact that they fried my elbows various times...) I can't help but think that the correlation could be biased by the fact that - probably - those who dedicate lots of time to getting strong on pull ups and one armers, dedicate equal time to getting strong fingers.
One of the above posts about pull ups on an edge was on this point also, if I got it right.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: ghisino on December 15, 2017, 11:58:52 am
pullups: in between 15 and 20+ depending on the form (kipping or not, legs straight or bent in fornt of you, etc)

one armers: zero. I need to unload myself by some 10-15 kg with a pulley system.

bouldering grade: i've climbed a few 7C's in a single session, one 7C+, two 8A traverses.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: tomtom on December 15, 2017, 12:02:56 pm
The whole 'strength of X, Y or Z to bouldering grade' argument is dependant on three parts.

1. Assessing strength - which can be fairly quantitative (e.g. the Latticers max weight added to hold a small hold test and as climbing is a body weight dependant you have to normalise this to the body weight as they do etc..). What ever metric you come up with will probably not include height, technique, ape index, core strength etc.. Some of which (e.g. technique) are nigh on impossible to measure.

2. How this metric of strength relates to bouldering - which is at best partial, at worst useless. OK, so pulling on small edges is relevant to some bouldering but not to all. It has IMHO a fair amount of cross over to other strengths, but not all. So 1 armers are a shit metric of climbing ability, but a great metric of one armer ability...

3. Bouldering grades are so darned subjective/qualitative anyway... a 7B grit slab is completely different in terms of skill and strength to a manky tiny crimp sit start peak lime classic test problem etc..

So in summary you have (a) decent measurement of strength + (b) shonky to average interpretation of measurement + (c) qualitative assessment of what that measurement of strength relates to...

Therefore I would recommend:
(a) gossip about it as here, as its about as meaningful as the 3:30 at Kempton

(b) Give up and have a coffee :)

(c) make a business from it :D
(note smiley!)

(https://cdn.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/snakeoil-cover-700x400.jpg)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: ghisino on December 15, 2017, 12:09:04 pm
oh, just one though

i suspect that in terms of big muscles strenght test, straight-arm lat pulldowns or front lever progressions could be more relevant to climbing ability than pullups.

the idea being that the steeper the climb is, the less important it is to be able to lock off with a bent arm. (and more important to be able to do big moves straight armed)

i would be curious to see some data, if somebody has it!
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: petejh on December 15, 2017, 12:17:52 pm
Talk of 'a grade' being easier for a tall people doesn't mean much does it? Because there isn't a 'standard benchmark grade' in climbing. Unless you're talking about a specific style of route or boulder. For example which 8c+ is easier for tall people, Liquid Ambar? Evolution? Or Era Vella? (ok it's given 9a by some/8c+ by others but you get the point).
Anecdotal; but from talking to various people involved with lattice assessments, and reading their comments on ukb etc., most often the goal of doing the lattice training program seems to be success on a specific European sport route or general success on a Euro sport trip, at one of the well-known French or Spanish crags. Great goal. But it doesn't reflect all of climbing 'at that grade'.
If a Lattice trainee then comes back and reports climbing 'success at grade xyz' and this feeds into the lattice data then it might bias the data towards 'success on grade xyz' for a certain style of route.

Just in the cave, same rock type, venue, you have Left Wall High and Rock Atrocity - both 7C but plenty of people can't do both.

Edit, I see TT beat me to it.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 02:09:28 pm
+1 TT for essentially making the 'I think you'll find it's more complicated' argument.

However, I think it's still a useful/interesting exercise to look at these things. Correlations that exist despite a mountain of other explanatory variables are always striking...modern modelling techniques allow us to account for multiple categorical and continuous variables, fixed and random effects, atypical distributions, and the rest. I see no reason why—given enough data—and even with measurement errors, we (not me) can't find out some useful stuff...even if it's purely pub banter material.

In my field (ecology)—which is bewilderingly complex, filled with sampling errors and seemingly random at times—certain things (like body size) explain or correlate with many things.   
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: nai on December 15, 2017, 02:25:13 pm
Two more data points for you:

Me 1990s
pullups 25
one armers 2
General bouldering grade 6B (but could do about 8 6c-7A+s at Longridge plus Gorilla Warfare and Green Traverse. One Trick Pony?  :-\)

Me 2000s
pullups 15
one armers 0
general bouldering grade 7A+ (but did 20 odd harder problems up to 7C in a variety of styles)

Perhaps people who can do silly amounts are generally short, light, young people?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Luke Owens on December 15, 2017, 02:34:32 pm
I'm guessing a lot of the people climbing 7C and above who said they can't do a full one armer can probably lock off on one arm though?
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: slackline on December 15, 2017, 02:37:40 pm

Correlations that exist despite a mountain of other explanatory variables are always striking...modern modelling techniques allow us to account for multiple categorical and continuous variables, fixed and random effects, atypical distributions, and the rest. I see no reason why—given enough data—and even with measurement errors, we (not me) can't find out some useful stuff...even if it's purely pub banter material.


And that is the folly...the answer to the worlds "problems"* is not more data.

The well refined and highly successful scientific method which has been used to great effect for several hundred years now, whilst requiring data follows a cyclical, self-correcting process of observation > hypothesis > testable theory (i.e. predicitons) > testing these predictions under controlled conditions > checking results against predictions > refinement of hypothesis (or if enough evidence accrues against it a paradigm shift).

To do this you need to have the correct data, accurately and carefully collated, reducing measurement error as much as possible should be the starting point, otherwise you have Garbage In, Garbage Out.  This thread and the survey I've done in the past is not a good example, the data Lattice collect is a big improvement, but as I think abarro81 or someone at least commented when I'd set up the hanging on edges survey, conditions are fickle, humidity can affect things, someones nutritional/rest state too.

And things like Generalised Linear Mixed Models are brilliant, but they still require knowledge about what variables are important, you don't just throw everything in.  Forwards/backwards stepwise selection has repeatedly been shown to converge on sub-optimal (local maxima) solutions, LASSOs are a bit better.  Principle Components Analysis in my view just masks things.  Neural Nets can do clever things, but are subject to the bias they are fed (big example would be racial profiling because they are being fed biased data reflecting racism in humans).  Even then all these models need training and validation data on which to test the predictive ability of any derived model.

I've said it before but will repeat myself, there will not be money to do this detailed level of research in climbing in a pure research environment.


* substitute inquisitiveness if you like, I just used the most common phrasing of the problem.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: 36chambers on December 15, 2017, 02:48:46 pm
I'm guessing a lot of the people climbing 7C and above who said they can't do a full one armer can probably lock off on one arm though?

I expect this is generally the case. It certainly is with myself and the people I climb with.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 02:57:51 pm
I agree with most of that slackers, but we do have *some* knowledge of what's important. I have neither the time nor inclination to do a deep dive on modelling simplification (as it happens I'm doing backwards selection on a lme as I write this). I don't agree on the garbage data point entirely. Plenty of data is like this in the real world: you work with what you have, and—often—come out with huge uncertainties at the other end. But it's still information. Everything on the rosetta mission was n=1. Still useful info. We tagged a single eel making a migration to Sargasso. Still useful. Tree rings are a wobbly proxy for climatic conditions, we can get n=loads and glean some useful info.  Plus, this thread has been qualitatively enlightening from my perspective.   
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: slackline on December 15, 2017, 03:08:38 pm
(as it happens I'm doing backwards selection on a lme as I write this).

I would highly recommend checking out Least Absolute Shrinkage And Selection Operator (LASSO) originally proposed by Tibshirani (http://statweb.stanford.edu/~tibs/lasso.html) and implemented in R in the glmnet (https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/glmnet/index.html) package.

What are some of the problems with stepwise regression? (https://www.stata.com/support/faqs/statistics/stepwise-regression-problems/index.html)

References
Altman, D. G. and P. K. Andersen. 1989.Bootstrap investigation of the stability of a Cox regression model. Statistics in Medicine 8: 771–783.
Copas, J. B. 1983.Regression, prediction and shrinkage (with discussion). Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, Series B 45: 311–354.

^ Shows why the number of CANDIDATE variables and not the number in the final model is the number of degrees of freedom to consider.

Derksen, S. and H. J. Keselman. 1992. Backward, forward and stepwise automated subset selection algorithms: frequency of obtaining authentic and noise variables. British Journal of Mathematical and Statistical Psychology 45: 265–282.

Hurvich, C. M. and C. L. Tsai. 1990. The impact of model selection on inference in linear regression. American Statistician 44: 214–217.

Mantel, Nathan. 1970. Why stepdown procedures in variable selection. Technometrics 12: 621–625.

Roecker, Ellen B. 1991. Prediction error and its estimation for subset—selected models. Technometrics 33: 459–468.

^ Shows that all-possible regression can yield models that are too small.

Tibshirani, Robert. 1996. Regression shrinkage and selection via the lasso. Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, Series B 58: 267–288.


And whilst qualitatively interesting you are trying to quantify relationships.  People's weights fluctuate, measurement error from varying devices, reporting of "best" performance all add noise, and whilst the data may be useful in guiding hypothesis formation if you want to tease out whats going on and relationships you do need to collect a large standardised data set over time (repeated measures on individuals) in multiple samples (lots of different groups of people) since repeatability is fundamental to science.  The Lattice plots show little relationship, and as remus noted the fact that the outcome (grade) isn't exact makes it even more challenging.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: highrepute on December 15, 2017, 03:12:42 pm
This builds on earlier points by TT, PJH and Danny regarding lattice testing...

I've not convinced about the climbing is easier for the tall conclusion from the lattice data - and I'm a short climber so could do with the excuse.

It could easily be argued the opposite way - the lattice tests are easier for the short.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 03:15:39 pm
Ta. I'm aware of most of the issues. My factors/interactions are mechanistically meaningful. I'm not going 'all the way', as it were. Back to the one-armers...
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Danny on December 15, 2017, 03:24:07 pm
This builds on earlier points by TT, PJH and Danny regarding lattice testing...

I've not convinced about the climbing is easier for the tall conclusion from the lattice data - and I'm a short climber so could do with the excuse.

It could easily be argued the opposite way - the lattice tests are easier for the short.

This. Even when we're talking about correlations we can't help but drift into causality.
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: 36chambers on December 15, 2017, 04:25:52 pm
This builds on earlier points by TT, PJH and Danny regarding lattice testing...

I've not convinced about the climbing is easier for the tall conclusion from the lattice data - and I'm a short climber so could do with the excuse.

It could easily be argued the opposite way - the lattice tests are easier for the short.

This. Even when we're talking about correlations we can't help but drift into causality.

With regards to gritstone bouldering, you don't need lattice data to conclude that the number of problems that favour taller folk significantly outnumber the ones that favour shorter ones :worms: ;)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: nik at work on December 15, 2017, 05:11:43 pm
Have i misunderstood or have the lattice chaps not simply said
"For a given max grade shorter climbers tend to be able to do more pull ups than taller ones"
This is clearly very different to saying climbing is easier for tall climbers isn't it?

(Obviously climbing is far easier for cheaty lankmeisters and everyone knows this, I just don't think that is what the lattice brains are saying...)
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: ghisino on December 15, 2017, 09:33:13 pm
I'm guessing a lot of the people climbing 7C and above who said they can't do a full one armer can probably lock off on one arm though?

During the time window where i climbed most of my 7C's i wasn't training pullups or lockoffs at all, and was relatively weak at both. Certainly not holding a one arm lockoff. I would fingerboard or campus more often, and be relatively much better at those.

Interestingly, i've been resuming pullup training lately and the progress seems relatively quick (i got the one arm lockoff very fast),
 probably the muscular structure (fibers) is there, it's just a neuromuscular issue.

i should add that since 99% of my bouldering has been in font, this is quite logic...in font you want to be able to press hard into slopers and heels, to be explosive at times, but the times where you want to lock off statically on a reasonable hold with shit feet are almost non-existent.

I remember more situations where i would have wanted a better lockoff when sport climbing on limestone...

Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: Sasquatch on December 16, 2017, 06:14:14 pm
I'm guessing a lot of the people climbing 7C and above who said they can't do a full one armer can probably lock off on one arm though?

I expect this is generally the case. It certainly is with myself and the people I climb with.

I can't do a 1-arm lockoff either. 
Title: Re: Pullups, to 1 armers, to bouldering grade
Post by: lagerstarfish on December 16, 2017, 09:06:13 pm
I used to be able to do three one armers

closest I ever came to bouldering 7C was toproping Angel's Share (which means it must be 7B+) and a few ascents of WSS before the pebble went (only topped out once)
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