UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Wellsy on March 06, 2022, 07:46:19 am
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I want to keep a track of this for a few reasons. I posted in NNFN but essentially fell at Stanage, landed badly, knee seemed to hyperextend maybe? And just gave out. Agonising pain for a minute or so, tried to walk, leg collapsed at a certain angle, carried off the crag. Got to A&E; no break and seemingly fucked the LCL although to what extent as yet unknown. Cannot walk, in crutches. Painful and swollen.
So that's the situation. My reasons are;
1) gives me a space to get my thoughts written and together
2) provides me with a narrative of what's happened
3) will keep me honest and maybe people will have useful tips and info
4) it may be of use to others in future.
A few things to say here; I am going to dedicate myself to overcoming this, and I will. And I will do 8A one day, that hasn't changed. I'll also make myself ideally much more injury resistant in the meantime, but I intend to use this time to get stronger in the upper body as well.
So anyway yeah. Day 1. Leg is very swollen and cannot be straightened or foot placed flat on the floor. Painful but low on the scale. However the knee has noticeably more resistance against collapsing in the weak angle, I can actually feel something trying to stop it just falling out from under me. So that's positive as yesterday it was just a dead lump.
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Sorry to hear that. Have you got an MRI booked in? Having heard how long it has taken some people to get one on the NHS (vs in Germany where my wife got one in 2 days after hurting her MCL while we were on a trip) it may be worth considering paying to go private to get one quick if you can afford to...
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I'm going to the Sheffield Climbing Clinic this week and if they refer me to get a scan I'll definitely look into getting a private one done.
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My other half had an NHS MRI last week, four days after her injury. That was in the process of deciding what the best course of action was to treat her displaced tibia break though (ligaments fine luckily) so you may not get that level of service if it’s just the ligaments.
Progress within 24 hours is surely a good sign.
Bear in mind you’ll go through something resembling the five stages of grief in the days following a debilitating injury. Look after yourself.
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And I will do 8A one day, that hasn't changed.
Tempted to boycott this thread for that soulless numerical insta-ambition ::)
But....brain dump incoming:
LCL sprain / tear:
The LCL seems mechanically fairly simple, it just sits there, stopping the knee bowing outwards, waiting to be injured mostly by sheer bad luck. Yours (grade 2 partial tear?) sounds a lot worse than mine (grade 1 sprain?), but then again you're young and don't have vascular issues so will probably heal a lot quicker regardless.
Go see a physio shortly. If there's lots of swelling maybe wait for that to die down, otherwise ASAP. The test for LCL injuries is really simple - google LCL tear test for a cheery indication of how it can manifest itself (this put the fear of god into me hence being extra careful in the last 3 months). The physio should be able to diagnose the grade.
Expect that there might be other stuff going on. If there's trauma in the area, other things might have got injured even minorly. The physio I saw ran through all the knee area tests (which were fine) leaving the LCL until last (which was obviously painful / weak on the test).
Acute care:
Expect the pain levels and functionality to go up and down like a fucking yo-yo. I could walk and even body squat on mine without pain when it happened BUT in the next few days I got more pain, bits of swelling, etc, and ended up hobbling more and avoiding squatting.
Get a knee brace. I got this one: https://www.physioroom.com/product/PhysioRoom_Advanced_Hinged_Knee_Brace_Wrap_Around_Knee_Support_for_Rehab_Pain_Relief/3113/38719.html , the only downside is that velcro is abrasive side in, so if it doesn't fit perfectly you might have to put a bit of finger tape around it to stop it rubbing. The brace can make my calf feel a bit achey after exercise from the pressure on it, BUT I found it very useful to give me confidence and a safety net when doing exercise.
Get a simple elastic knee support and wear it in bed so when you're thrashing around with a massive boner working towards ticking that magical 8A, it's there to remind you to treat it gently. I found I got a fair bit of aggravation in bed because the body is more relaxing and rolling over can allow the knee to droop and produce that must-avoid sideways stress.
Rest initially, obviously. I maybe went a little bit far on the rehab initially and had to back off a bit after a couple of weeks.
Leg rehab:
Ligaments are a bit annoying as they don't do much except provide support, so unlike tendons it's harder to steadily increase stress / load through them (eccentrics, slow heavy loading, blah blah) to heal them. There might be better science about this than I know but the protocol seemed to be: Use the area, gently at first, in very controlled, non-aggravational movements, to increase blood flow, stimulate healing in the area, and keep the surrounding muscles strong to provide additional stability.
Walking - was fine for me from the start, on the flat and for normal distances. Over a month or so I built it up to rougher terrain (with the knee brace for support / back-up), and I did find that that improved my rehab quite a bit, the knee would feel "worked" after some walks but better overall and subsequently. Obviously it's being guided by the severity of the injury and being careful not to aggravate it.
Running - you must be fucking kidding don't even think about it.
Cycling - might be possible but do you really want to give the last remnants of your soul away??
Gym membership - get one. Really useful (essential for me) for have a good choice of gentle / stable / controlled leg rehab options, as well as general conditioning. I did quad raises, hamstring curls, and leg presses on the machines, with light weights and very controlled, a few times a week. No it's not nearly as cool as deadlifting a car inside some grotty shed but the machines seem very "safe" for rehab in the right plane of movement.
Stretching - hope you didn't do much glute stretching because that will be impossible. Some general stretching will be fine, again the "simplicity" of the LCL should make it obvious what movements to avoid.
Arm stuff:
1. Don't jump right in to going too heavy on the arm exercises as compensation training.
2. - 10. See 1.
It's worth considering that firstly your body will be trying to heal a lower limb injury so might not want to spare resources / energy to keep niggles and tweaks at bay when you decide that fingerboarding 3 hours a day 6 days a week is the best way to get through this. And secondly you'll be changing your routine to include less climbing and more pure board / finger / arm training, so you'll have to adapt. It might be sensible to DECREASE the total training (including previous climbing) load for a couple of weeks then build it back up to normal, then increased levels.
Psychological stuff:
I'll just dump this here again as I'm getting lazy after the fucking essay above:
http://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2021/11/strategies.html
I've found there are definitely limits to this but as a whippersnapper just getting into climbing with only the first (?) time-off-climbing, you hopefully will find it manageable after the initial shock.
Also....
Elden Ring just came out so that might get a fucking hammering.
As will your bumhole, on most bosses :2thumbsup:
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Shite news mate, knees are a nightmare.
If it's properly giving way, it's potentially a sign there's some other shit going on that just the LCL. ACL and/or postelateral corner (poplitiofubular ligament and other lesser bits of unnamed ligament nonsense) sound like they might be involved.
I smashed my PCL, PLC and LCL in a car crash about 12 years ago. Just starting to get some signs of mild arthritis behind my kneecap now but otherwise its been pretty solid after the surgery.
If I can give any recommendations: do all the physio (it sounds like this won't be an issue for you), try to find the best local knee specialist you can. Preferably one who does both private and NHS. Pay for the consultation (£120-£150ish) and then hope you can get transferred onto their NHS list, or get a recommendation from them of a good NHS surgeon. It'll be £10k plus if you need surgery privately.
You might be lucky and it's not too bad and you don't need surgery.
I did a blog while doing my rehab:
http://pcl-rehab.blogspot.com/?m=1
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Thanks for all the kind words and advice
I should say at this stage I don't know how bad it is. It could be more than the LCL, and something could have snapped rather than torn or been pulled acutely. I don't know whether I'll need surgery or anything like that. I'm preparing myself for that possibility. It certainly seems bad. Hopefully at some point however it can get to the point of being fully or at least mostly usable for bouldering. I shall take it day by day in the meantime.
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Wise. Hope you get some good news mate
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This isn't the end of your climbing don't worry.
The amount it becomes useable for bouldering again is directly related to how much you enjoy bouldering.
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That is encouraging, thank you :)
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The amount it becomes useable for bouldering again is directly related to how much you enjoy bouldering. the severity of the injury, the success of any surgery / rehab, your body's propensity to healing well, the amount and steadiness of physio / rehab you do, the care with which you regain full functionality, and an amount of luck.
:chair:
Obviously Puntonious is your man for reference about getting back to bouldering after serious knee injury / reconstruction. I don't know about LCL yet as I'm been extra careful, but as far as my MCL tweak in 2020 goes, I was able to do normal bouldering after maybe 4 months, and after 5-6 months I was comfy taking some proper falls of reasonably meaty stuff without even thinking about it.
https://youtu.be/_Q3vjkTwkcI?t=62
https://youtu.be/Qpad6yhFZF4?t=8
^^^ timestamped dismounts were exactly 6 months after.
I've not had any problems since apart from the occasional very mild "old man" style ache if I've walked a lot on it.
Indoors, by carefully "front-pointing" and avoiding twisting, I could do low level stuff / sit-starts / board training to standing height much earlier. Except I couldn't because I'd fucked my elbow ofc ::)
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I would echo what fiend said about overcompensating on the training front while your knee is injured. Everyone only has so much capacity for training / physio, so I’d prioritise getting healed first and then do anything else on top of that.
Just out of interest what did you fall off ?
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Bullworker. A 6B I was trying as a warmup. Came off the top, fell badly, leg just twisted out and then it was just agony.
I'll be careful with resources but I absolutely must train. If I don't I'll go completely insane.
Also I should absolutely shout out to my mates Tom and Jack who literally carried me off the crag, drove me to A&E, were generally ace and sent me a get well soon food hamper today.
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Christ that's some bad luck, Bullworker finishes at tops out at just above head height :no:
No-one is saying don't train. We're saying "do train*, but don't immediately drastically increase the training load as compensation for being injured, when your body is healing another injury and you'll be switching to a different activity balance". Think how completely insane you'd feel if you popped an A2 or wrenched an elbow tendon as well... ...and yes we're nagging lol.
( * - actually, maintaining some of your standard training now would be sensible to avoid trying take any disproportionately large leaps from a too-low training base later on.)
Hope the food hamper was nice!
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I need the nagging. I'm new to all this sort of thing! I will train. I trained today. But I'll take it easy :)
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I initially thought I'd train loads, but getting the physio done and life just taking longer when in crutches etc. Meant there were long periods where I did less. One thing I found out was that one fingerboard session every 10 days seemed to keep any decline to a bare minimum.
Twice a week seemed to have small gains.
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I remember listening to a podcast on how fast we lose fitness (during the full lockdown, when exercise was limited to a walk from home). It summarised lots of studies where some athletes were forced to take bed rest for months, while others were allowed limited exercise (e.g. by NASA to recreate the effects of space missions). IIRC it concluded that while doing nothing was pretty calamitous, around 20% of normal training load significantly reduced decline - and that was for both endurance and strength sports. Generally, after a long lay-off, you'll end up a fair bit worse, but it won't take much to come out of it at least a semblance of your former self and well placed to recover quickly.
I think this was the podcast:
https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/fitnessadaptationandreversibility-howfastdowelosefitness-fitnessresilience (https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/fitnessadaptationandreversibility-howfastdowelosefitness-fitnessresilience).
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Day 2 - morning
Swollen and a bit painful. Feeling slightly steadier using the leg (assisted with a crutch for safety) as long as it is aligned directly, any twist of the right toes out and the knee in feels like it would give out under weight immediately. Slept more soundly, although yesterday evening I was not doing well psychologically.
Not sure how much I trust about this assessment from Saturday. Going to make copious notes about pain locations etc for Friday.
Did a pullup session (3x5 weighted, 3x8 wide grip) and that made me feel a bit better.
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I don't think any load bearing is a good idea at this stage, even as a "just testing"?
As someone who has had the whole gamut of assorted injuries, suggest you start thinking of a few other things you would like to do / try to do/ learn to do rather than "must train for climbing!".
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I'm just going off the advice I got at the hospital which was to try and weight the leg and get used to using it as soon as. I will say that it's not painful and it definitely seems to help with stiffness and such to walk around a bit with a crutch to assist that leg.
But you do make a good point, and yes it's time to probably find other things to do sooner rather than later.
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https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31220.msg634634.html
This might be of use, especially the bits about sewing, and painting toy soldiers ::)
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I did think of that thread..
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Day 3 - feels better today though still unstable and weak. Swelling is almost gone. Keen at this point to know whether I'll need surgery, hopefully not. But definitely hurts a lot less and feels stronger than before.
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Just on the MRI thing, you will need one for sure, and it should be quite quick in NHS. I’m almost 6 weeks down from dislocated patella and had one within 4 weeks if injury, which is quite good considering that any surgery for me would be to prevent recurrence, and would have nothing to do with regaining functionality short term.
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I've got an appointment with the knee clinic at Northern General in 3 weeks so hopefully that'll include a scan.
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They'll probably refer you for a scan after that appointment so you might be able to get in touch with whoever you're supposed to see ahead of time and get a referral early.
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They'll probably refer you for a scan after that appointment so you might be able to get in touch with whoever you're supposed to see ahead of time and get a referral early.
I'll probably look into that. Thanks!
Day 4 - leg use is much better. I can walk around at home without crutches, and with increasing confidence. Definitely still pain if the knee tries to bend too much and valgus pressure pushing the knee in feels like it would be very unstable. I'll avoid trying to diagnose through Google anyway, but feels like if I could have confidence that won't happen then I would be way more functional. Knee brace here we come! Although I'll wait until seeing the SCC, see what they say.
In line with the advice given I've been trying to use it and ice it regularly. I also did some upper body training today, I'll be fingerboarding too, and I'll try to work out safe core exercises soon too.
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Yeah yeah whatever how's Elden Ring going??
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Man it's so good. Best FS game ever. I think its a bit more forgiving than Bloodbourne cos you can just run the fuck awayyyyy if you get in too much trouble. Just dicking around in Limgrave.
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Day 5 have acquired toy soldiers.
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:o :wavecry: :no: tell me that's a joke....
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I wish it was my friend, I wish it was
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Day 6
Went to the Sheffield Climbing Clinic to see James. He was really good, turns out the LCL diagnosis was duff as expected (not that I blame them hard to look at in A&E) and that what I definitely have is a grade 2 MCL tear and a very slightly possibly impinged ACL.
MCL no surgery just loads of rehab, no climbing for about a month post injury, probably about 12 weeks to get it nicely rehabbed up apparently. The ACL seems very minor and could just be inherent laxity as my left knee is also very loose. The plan is to rehab the MCL and see if any ACL symptoms pop up. If they don't cool, if they do that would need surgery but won't get any worse in the meantime and we can get to that when we get to it. It is the view of James that he would be surprised if I do need any surgical treatment.
So yeah a serious MCL injury but fixable and far from the worst case scenario. All in all somewhat positive, could be way worse and much longer out.
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How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? :???:
I feel that I healed better from my MCL injury than from the LCL, even though the MCL seems to be stressed in a wider range of movements. I could certainly do "front-pointing" along the lower part of a circuit board fairly quickly (i.e. far too quickly for my then golfer's elbow).
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Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.
Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.
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How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? :???:
When someone's knee is acutely painful and swollen every movement hurts. Diagnosing is not easy. It's maybe better not to try but everyone expects to walk out of A+E with a name.
Wellsy, this is all sounding promising. I'm not sure an MRI will be needed, it's mainly a surgeon's tool and as you seem to be improving fast you'll hopefully avoid this. Function should be your guide: if your knee feels stable it doesn't hugely matter what scans show. Usual caveats on the worth of free advice over the internet...
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Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.
Often those working in A&E (Dr's & nurses) have only a basic understanding of MSK non-bone injuries. Always take A&E findings with a pinch of salt in this regard.
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Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.
Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.
It seems hard to diagnose stuff even at leisure. 15 days after I smashed my wrist, I had follow-up X-rays and was told by the radiologist (and later by my GP) that they showed nothing. Weeks later, after continued pain encouraged me to go private, a consultant saw the same X-rays and told me they clearly showed an avulsion fracture and implied a torn ligament, which was confirmed by MRI. I didn't really lose a great deal to be honest - the injury wasn't exacerbated, I just lost a month I could have spent re-habbing - but a bit annoying!
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Okay that's fair enough about the difficulty and vagueness of A & E. I was speaking from experience with my physio diagnosis that was so easy: Bend the knee inwards, no increase in pain -vs- bend the knee outwards, immediate increase in pain and too much flexing in the knee (and I assume this would have been directly the opposite with the MCL).
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I went to Bradford A and E after crashing a Go Kart and they said the pain in my back was whiplash and take some paracetamol. The next day I went to Leeds A and E and they said the same thing. The next day I went to a chiro who took an x ray and told me what the problem was.
When he saw the x ray of a massive wedge compression fracture in my thoracic vertebra the consultant at least had the decency to go pale.
So no, A and E don’t always pick things up.
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How the fuck did the hospital mis-diagnose that given that LCL and MCL are pretty much polar opposite injuries and the tests are polar opposite movement tests (and really easy to do)?? :???:
When someone's knee is acutely painful and swollen every movement hurts. Diagnosing is not easy. It's maybe better not to try but everyone expects to walk out of A+E with a name.
Wellsy, this is all sounding promising. I'm not sure an MRI will be needed, it's mainly a surgeon's tool and as you seem to be improving fast you'll hopefully avoid this. Function should be your guide: if your knee feels stable it doesn't hugely matter what scans show. Usual caveats on the worth of free advice over the internet...
Thanks mate. It definitely feels like it's going in as good a direction as I could have hoped for!
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Okay that's fair enough about the difficulty and vagueness of A & E. I was speaking from experience with my physio diagnosis that was so easy: Bend the knee inwards, no increase in pain -vs- bend the knee outwards, immediate increase in pain and too much flexing in the knee (and I assume this would have been directly the opposite with the MCL).
Essentially the opposite yeah.
I would say after looking into it, it appears that when you get a ligament injury in a joint often the other side of the joint gets very rapidly compressed leading to at times even more intense pain than the actually injured site. Apparently especially common in ankles in fact, you can damage ligament on the outside and it hurts more on the inside because the soft tissue has overcompressed, which eases after a few days.
On the day my LCL region was very painful, I assume due to compression, and my knee was very swollen so a valgus test was not viable maybe? Anyway. Understandable that they would not diagnose it accurately imo.
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Lord knows. I guess it is hard to diagnosis stuff in A&E.
Also yes I'm comforted in having the most basic bitch of ligament injuries.
I spent the afternoon in Hull A & E having had a head on collision with lurched whilst out on my bike. No broken bones apparently.
Next morning my mate and colleague who was the A & E mental health liaison nurse called round to give me a lift back to A & E . When a senior medic had reviewed the days X rays he noticed I had 3 broken ribs.
A lot of the doctors working A & E are often on the first placement after finishing medical school.
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I was fortunate in that I was seen by a nurse practitioner with something like 30+ years experience; Ysbyty Gwynedd's equivalent of Charlie from Casualty.
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One week later: rehab started in earnest. Mobility stretches for range of motion and gentle movement on the exercise bike, which feels good and not impinging. Bit of slow air squats and such too. I'll be getting on the gym machines this week. One crutch outdoors essentially for a bit of security but doing much better. Regular ice and flexing seems to really help. Upper body training also in moderation, no more than before but no less either.
Walking is still not pleasant and first thing in the morning it's very stiff. But this is to be expected. Good progress.
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Marginally less fucked. No climbing is misery inducing. I hope it pisses it down when my friends go out. Going to start barbell benching again.
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Marginally less fucked. No climbing is misery inducing.
Imagine how that will feel after a couple of months of it :blink: *
As a bonus, imagine that you also have an arm injury so you can't train. And that the one time you do go out to try to climb even the easiest stuff you can't trust yourself to do anything at all, and end up curled up on the sofa in a pit of despair. And imagine that exactly the same sort of double injury happened the previous year...
On the other hand, if you can bench enough, according to Liamhutch98, you'll soon be doing enough muscle-ups to climb 8B... (personally I did some of my best benching at the weekend and would have PBed if some fucking random nub i got to spot me hadn't taken a fraction of the weight on my lift - and I'm on the worst climbing burl shape I've ever been).
* - p.s. in all seriousness, stick with it. Day by day, each time try to do something useful for your rehab or general activity. And "be glad you have the opportunity to learn the virtue of patience" (C) MrJonathonR 2017 (arsehole ::) )
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I can (could, because I can't risk dropping from them) shoddily do one (1) muscle up on the rings but I'm pretty sure I could do ten perfectly and I'd get to about 7B+ with a tailwind knowing my ability.
I am carefully learning and distilling the art of bitter hatred but yes it could be worse I could be down the use of my wanking hand. The benching is more because I like benching than anything really.
Hope your majesty mortal avatar fixes up in all the joints, Fiend
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I am carefully learning and distilling the art of bitter hatred
:2thumbsup: that's the spirit!!
I agree with you on bench. One of my favourite non-climbing movements.
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On the other hand, if you can bench enough, according to Liamhutch98, you'll soon be doing enough muscle-ups to climb 8B... (personally I did some of my best benching at the weekend and would have PBed if some fucking random nub i got to spot me hadn't taken a fraction of the weight on my lift - and I'm on the worst climbing burl shape I've ever been).
Congrats on getting to 1.5x bodyweight on bench in order to disprove what I said...
Although what I actually said was 1.5x bench and 1.5x pullup would equal muscle ups. Find me someone with those numbers who can't do a muscle up.
You are in poor burl shape because you are injured and perhaps your numbers are way below 1.5x?
Sorry for hijack wellsy. Glad to hear things are mending slowly and keep up the psyche :punk:
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1.5 BW bench is pretty nails. I'd love to get to that.
Psyche will be maintained! Pushing my strength for when I get back in action
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Although what I actually said was 1.5x bench and 1.5x pullup would equal muscle ups. Find me someone with those numbers who can't do a muscle up.
^^^ this seems to be a lot more realistic than...
While steep board climbing would likely be better, I reckon these would be the best 2 non climbing exercises for burl. If you can bench and row 1.5 times your bodyweight then you can automatically do all the supposedly more climbing exercises like T's on TRX, explosive pullups or muscle ups, etc. Probably way before reaching 1.5x actually. You wouldn't be found wanting more body strength at this point.
Yes it's nit-picking a bit*, but when we're talking about stuff at the limit the little bits count. Also it's a bit frustrating that even well fully uninjured and climbing fit, weights performance has never translated into climbing physical performance nearly as much as your first post. The updated one seems a more realistic correlation.
(* - and beating a dead horse AND hijacking wellsy's thread AND moaning again jfc I'm a fud I know)
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I was obviously pulling numbers out my arse but it just seemed obvious to me that someone who is generally strong will do well at burly climbing, and pullups and bench press are great exercises for building general strength. We've all seen the non-climber gym bro types who can campus all the v2's with socks under their rental shoes, but don't know what a slab is.
Out of interest how much have you been able to add to your weighted pullups over time without seeing an impact on your climbing?
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Footwork and I were once climbing at Jerrys roof when some strong lad explained that he thought the only things you need to train for climbing are bench and shoulder press, because climbing is mostly push movements - I was confused, but he did then fire off Mr Fantastic iirc :shrug:
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No climbing is misery inducing.
I'd try your best to get past this and focus on things you can do and do enjoy. You don't want to end up as a 1D Barrows bemoaning life because your finger hurts a bit (even if it is only capable of 9a). It's harder said than done of course (I've been there and my Wife would probably tell you I was a complete PITA at times when I've been truly injured).
Quite a while ago now I broke my leg spectacularly falling off at a bouldering wall and essentially stamping on my right leg with my left when landing (the Northern General did a great job of everything from A&E to fixing my leg as well as you might hope). I spent about 8 months with a frame but I was able to do plenty of weights once I was mobile. You do get funny looks rolling dumbbells at an empty bench and then hobbling after them.
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Congrats on your shoulder-press-derived speedy ascent of Mr Fantastic, LH89!
I was obviously pulling numbers out my arse but it just seemed obvious to me that someone who is generally strong will do well at burly climbing, and pullups and bench press are great exercises for building general strength. We've all seen the non-climber gym bro types who can campus all the v2's with socks under their rental shoes, but don't know what a slab is.
Out of interest how much have you been able to add to your weighted pullups over time without seeing an impact on your climbing?
Yes I think we agree it's obvious there are good links between general upper body strength, especially climbing-relevant-muscles strength, and climbing burl (once the fingers are trained ofc).
I was going to answer your question with "You really expect me to remember the very dim and distant past where I could do weighted pull-ups without things snapping??" and then I remembered, it was only 4 years ago - the first time I got tennis elbows in fact, from weighted pull-ups as part of general hard-for-me bouldering and training without enough rest. I vaguely recall 2 reps at +30kg and 1 pretty-much-a-rep-and-the-fucking-crossfitters-would-tick-it at +40kg, which is alarmingly bang on your pulled-out-of-arse 1.5 x BW. In terms of climbing stuff, I was doing okay in general, my deadhanging was okay, but could still only do 1-3-5 *just* and very occasionally on the campus board. I'm calling fast twitch muscle fibres and a significant difference between strength and explosive power (incidentally my half-decent benches are always so slow on successful maxes that it's like watching Moose staticking the Who Are We Without Moon dyno over several minutes....). I have been meaning to train explosive power more, but it's also even worse for tendons ::)
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What do you reckon is harder to get to, 1.5 BW pullup or 1.5 BW bench
I think bench. A 1.5 BW bench is quite a lot. I can do like... 1.05? 1.1? Maybe? And I'd say for a climber thats pretty good actually.
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1xBW pull up is easy
1xBW bench requires a bit more oomph. Obvious which is harder.
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Bench by a long way. Maybe LH89's Extraordinarily Accurate Relative Strengths Comparometer (tm) could estimate what %BW pull-ups you should be able to do for 1.5xBW bench....
Actually I have wondered what the general comparisons "should" be for a relatively normal fit / strong climber as regards:
Number of pull-ups
Max weight pull-up
Max squat
Max deadlift
Max bench
Max overhead press
Max row
Max bicep curl
(insofar as they're clearly measurable)
(as kgs or proportions of body weight)
I do know from chatting to various people they vary quite a lot.... Wellsy stop despairing and get a proper scientific research UKB topic on the go ;)
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(incidentally my half-decent benches are always so slow on successful maxes that it's like watching Moose staticking the Who Are We Without Moon dyno over several minutes....). I have been meaning to train explosive power more, but it's also even worse for tendons ::)
Shade! But also accurate re my utter lack of dynamism and burl. Sadly, I suspect I would fare even worse now - same faults but 7kg heavier. Though weirdly, unless I suffer from the inverse of body dysmorphia I look no different - but the fingerboard tests are now far more punterish.
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Interesting question actually. At bodyweight there's no comparison, the bench press is harder. However, at the very top end, people bench a greater proportion of their bodyweight, all the way up to around 3.5x :o
I suspect for most climbers a 1.5x pull up is much much easier.
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Actually I have wondered what the general comparisons "should" be for a relatively normal fit / strong climber as regards:
Number of pull-ups
Max weight pull-up
Max squat
Max deadlift
Max bench
Max overhead press
Max row
Max bicep curl
Not the most recent time it’s been done but probably the most comprehensive. (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20900.0.html)
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Do those people at the top end do pull-ups with 3.5 x BW as well??
P.S. Moose it's not a bug, it's a feature!!
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Do those people at the top end do pull-ups with 3.5 x BW as well??
I've never seen anything close to that. I'd be surprised if anyone has done 2.5x. Not sure if it's something inherent in the lifts or the fact the bench press is more widely contested. Probably both.
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Also that BW itself will be a massive factor in the pull-ups, I suppose total weight could be measured tho....
It seems a graph showing likely max pull-ups and likely max bench would fluctuate quite wildly through the strength categories from noob to beast then.
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Yeah probably. Once upon a time I could bench 135kg at just under 90kg bodyweight. I'd guess its around 110kg now at 80kg but I don't train it. My max pull up is +75kg, so that makes my best ever bench around 1.5x and pullups over 1.9x. Unfortunately max hangs are lower than both!
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My max hangs (1.7 BW) piss on my max bench and are better than my max pulls. Interesting how people can have completely different strengths and weaknesses I always think.
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Anyway my knee feels a bit better today. It's still kinda swollen though. Feels like that should have all gone by now?
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There will be a lot of ups and downs with swelling, pain, mobility, etc, for various reasons not least as the swelling eases off a bit and the mobility improves you will use it a bit more which will cause some temporary aggravation and maybe a bit of swelling blah blah #fuckinjuries also LH89 max pull-ups 1.9xBW no wonder you've got enough general burl ::)
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I quite like the idea of doing BP again properly having not had the equipment (or any desire to go to a gym) for a long time because there does appear to be some consensus that it might not be a bad thing for my bouldering. However, in the past I did spend some time trying to get to 100kg (with a bodyweight around 90-100kg) and the closer I got the more the progress became glacial whilst my chest got so big I had to invest in a new wardrobe after I experienced a series of Incredible Hulkesque clothing accidents.
In comparison, I got up to 150kg pull-ups in one of the lockdowns (around 100kg BW) and, though I've been a bit sporadic with these since, I think I could get quite a lot further with them.
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Having a thicker chest sounds pretty good to me. Both in terms of climbing but also just for general fitness. That said I target bodyweight percentages rather than absolute weight for that reason, getting to 100kgs is more useful for climbing if I don't do it by packing on a few kilos.
Also Fiend yeah fair that's good to know, it does seem variable in terms of swelling over the hours and days.
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Having a thicker chest sounds pretty good to me. Both in terms of climbing ...
If you weigh 100kg and want to improve at climbing then growing your chest sounds about as likely to be useful as learning to juggle. Waifs are more likely to benefit obviously.
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I bet learning to juggle helps too :D but I take your point
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Having a thicker chest sounds pretty good to me. Both in terms of climbing…
Not if you want to climb squeeze chimneys.
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safely say that's neve been a want of mine.
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Having a thicker chest sounds pretty good to me. Both in terms of climbing…
Not if you want to climb squeeze chimneys.
Almost got stuck recently after trying to repeat an old favourite. Obviously been getting too hench
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Day 14 - I'm fucking sick of dragging this piece of shit leg around. At this rate I'm cutting it off and chucking it in the fucking sea. Just get better you useless fucking thing.
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(https://www.redbanduk.co.uk/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/b2bdd28cc40bc82e1392d86449e72e2f/k/9/k970_ring_2__1.jpg) :2thumbsup:
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It's been three weeks and a day.
My knee is generally a lot better. I can jump on the spot no problem, jog a little, etc. It generally feels stiff and swollen all the time which comes and goes but can be quite unpleasant. Its definitely stronger but it's still unstable with valgus pressure and I have to be careful as if I say, lunged with my left leg forward and turned my right foot out slowly, it feels like a rubber band would be stretched inside my knee.
I'm training plenty (not overtraining, just regularly and with some strong effort) but I really miss bouldering a lot. This sucks. I hope it recovers, and I know that I need to be patient (and I am) but people I know are out climbing and I can't, it sucks.
Ah well. Must crack on with other things, stay in shape, and just do what I can
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Get well soon babe
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Ta darlin
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Phew, was waiting for an update.
Glad to hear you're keeping the training steady and ongoing and there's some mobility in the knee - keep that bit steady too.
Yes people are climbing, the arseholes. Although it's been pretty dire on the grit with sun and light easterlies.
Actually I was thinking about this issue the other day. You obviously know full well that when your knee recovers to good climbing functionality, this good weather will end and it will piss down for weeks if not months, and initially you're going to hate that. BUT try to take heart when that happens, that you are someone who is focused and progressive and likes training and trying to improve, and you will still be able to do that. It will suck if the weather forces you to miss yet more climbing time after the injury has already forced too much time off, but when you can train and climb indoors again, you can keep working towards progress and end goals, it won't be as desirable as getting out but it won't be wasted.
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You could be doing some very low level traversing, the sooner you get back on the wall the better.
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Phew, was waiting for an update.
Glad to hear you're keeping the training steady and ongoing and there's some mobility in the knee - keep that bit steady too.
Yes people are climbing, the arseholes. Although it's been pretty dire on the grit with sun and light easterlies.
Actually I was thinking about this issue the other day. You obviously know full well that when your knee recovers to good climbing functionality, this good weather will end and it will piss down for weeks if not months, and initially you're going to hate that. BUT try to take heart when that happens, that you are someone who is focused and progressive and likes training and trying to improve, and you will still be able to do that. It will suck if the weather forces you to miss yet more climbing time after the injury has already forced too much time off, but when you can train and climb indoors again, you can keep working towards progress and end goals, it won't be as desirable as getting out but it won't be wasted.
Feel the love young Wells.
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It's been three weeks and a day.
Since you took your working knee away.
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You're right Fiend. I will make good use of the time and also the rehabilitation has taught me things like the importance of leg strength for longevity and falling etc. Injuries/time stuck inside during shit weather/etc are a part of climbing and I intend to be doing that indefinitely so I need to become resilient to these periods. In retrospect lockdown may have been good "warmups" for that!
Moo I think you're right, and I actually did some of the blue circuit yesterday at the CWs, some pinkles, and some low moves on the BM less steep board where I can avoid using the leg in a tricky way. It was mostly to test what it can and can't do, it can be used fine direct on with some variation, its just being careful it doesn’t turn inwards through a move. My guidance was no climbing for three weeks post incident so I'm clear to try some stuff.
I'll get traversing probably tomorrow. I reckon. I can safely drop about a meter onto the mats so good progress.
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Couple of sessions of like, 3-4 grade climbing and the knee is feeling more reliable. 1m falls under control are totally fine. Keeping it casual. Dicked around on the campus board the other day and got 1-4-6 done. It feels like that's a good outlet for trying hard at something slightly dynamic? Also campusing on the board, one foot on moves etc.
Slowly we get back into it. I am looking forward to trying hard on actual problems again but taking it slow. On the upside the general strength and stability is much improved.
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Campus dynamism is a very different skill/strength to what is needed on many dynamic boulders. Take the classic Deliverance at plantation, which favours a climber who is proficient with their feet rather than one who can 1-4-7 on the small rungs.
If you want to take advantage of your excellent finger strength and pulling power I'd be pointing you towards steep fingery lime stuff. I bet you'd do well on Sheep Shifter at Cave Dale which is around 7b/+ and really good.
Obviously don't go rushing into anything because even a modest fall could set you back to square one.
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Steep fingery lime is definitely what I'm suited to best I think. But I enjoy working on my weaknesses and I'd been trying dynos from crap feet, weird power generation off slopers etc before I got hurt. Gritstone slap stuff.
Sheep Shifter sounds cool though! I'll give it a look. Cheers mate.
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After doing a little bit of low and easy stuff today at the works, I dropped off at the height of about two feet, and my knee buckled a little, felt a bit crunchy too. And now it hurts a bit. So that's two weeks rehab down the drain probably. Lesson learned. I'll step off everything, no climbing or falling at all this week.
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So tomorrow it'll have been 6 weeks
The knee is vastly better. I can run, jump, fall short distances, use it in almost all angles etc. There's a specifically weak angle and I can't fully bend it to sit on my heels, but other than that it feels and is almost back to full capacity.
Physio is now dynamic stuff and I suspect that within the next few weeks it'll be feeling fully healed. Good and positive progress. I think I'm probably lucky to be clearing up this fast and I'm not entirely sure why but I'd say potentially diet (loads of protein), rehab (I do it religiously) and maybe some genetics.
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Good effort. Almost exactly twice as quick as me :icon_321:
(On the plus side I finally found I can restart doing basic cobbler pose today and work on my hip flexibility which has reverted from "inflexible gym thug" to "petrified rigid corpse" in the last few months.)
Make sure you still keep it steady. Like any injury, once you feel progress and more normality, the time is ripe to still keep it steady and not bugger it up by going too quickly in the later stages. I know, nag nag, suck eggs, etc etc.
P.s. How's the toy soldier and Elden Ring progress, more importantly??
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Toy soldier and elden ring progress remains strong although sidelined in the last few days as I've been at an industrial/cybergoth festival and am in no fit state to do... well anything really
Progress being variable is something I've definitely realised but it's good that in general things are on the up and up. Glad your joints are now up to sufficient scratch that you work on flexibility! My knee can't bend fully yet but when it can I'll get back on that
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So update; very positive really. I've been climbing outdoors on specifically suggested stuff where I can not impinge the knee and there's not far to fall. Made great progress on Beretta 7A+ which will go next session and the right leg heel hooks are fine. I've never done anything harder than that grade so its good to be out trying hard despite the injury.
Indoors I've been doing falling training and I can do controlled falls with my feet around head height no problem. I'm getting my confidence back at the top of easier stuff and the knee feels good when trying various moves. I'm avoiding sketchy footholds on verts and slabs just as I want to basically not be falling uncontrolled at all.
Training wise I've actually for the first time been able to reduce the angle of my elbow joint while locked off one armed, i.e part 1 of one-armers. This isn't particularly impressive but I'm proud of myself for training hard and making improvements during a period of injury
(Very short vid for the curious)
https://youtube.com/shorts/LMebWOS8EMo?feature=share
Also a big shout out to @BID who has been a fantastic climbing partner during a somewhat depressing experience. Couldn't ask for more!
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Wellsy - could you share a few details of the physio exercises you've been doing?
I sprained my MCL a few weeks ago and self-diagnosed a grade 1 injury. After 3 weeks I can walk OK, but my knee is nowhere near stable enough to go bouldering.
I've been doing body-weight squats and bottom stair step-downs as prescribed by Google, are their any other exercises that you think help?
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See my big dump post on page 1. Anything that doesn't involve sideways movement or stability testing.
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Yep. And I'd say that there are a few points;
1) a physio is the best person to speak to about this
2) what is appropriate depends on the stage of recovery and extent of initial injury
3) that said I started with basic easing and stretching to get mobility, regular icing etc. Walking carefully. Then I went to doing one legged stands after a few weeks, bending over on one leg to pick something up, standing on one leg pressing above my head, etc. Then it was box squats, rack pulls, step ups on a box, quiet jumps after about 5 weeks etc. All in progression. But also I think you should get a physio to look at it.
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I'd second Wells on this.
Even if you go to see a physio for 1 session to get some starting point and then Google about it would be immensely valuable.
As its knees most physios should know their stuff, not like an A2 tear for example, so saving the 50 quid or whatever is a massive false economy.
Good luck!
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Thanks guys, much appreciated.
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Felt like posting here for comparison as i have been using this thread to compere my own recovery with a very similar injury and with the above post
i dislocated my knee climbing indoors around the 17th march some damage to alc and mcl but not full tears as far as i could tell a lot of meniscus and soft tissue damage
it was 3 days untill i could hold any weight on the leg and around a week untill i could kind of walk around in a leg brace/support from amazon
it was 3 weeks untill i went to the climbing gym recovery in this time was stretching to a level with no pain warm baths also helped with this and anti-inflammatory medication is your friend here. also a pro and con for me was working on a building site in this time so lots of movement to get the joint going again
for the next 3 weeks the only climbing related things i did where finger board 2 times a week
after 3 weeks i had a few very light sessions in the climbing gym climbing no harder than 6a and climbs where i knew there was a 0% chance of me falling off ( this made the leg feel a lot looser )
i followed this for 2 more weeks before climbing outside but this been said i am much more comfortable climbing outside in knowing when i am going to fall and i have found that not climbing much inside has made me slightly weaker but this is almost saved by the fact my skin is fantastic for every time i go outside
i am now at around 7 weeks i am very careful of climbing inside still not really climbing anything harder than 6b when i go inside but outside i picked lower blocks less than 4 meters and have managed to send 2 x7a and 2x7a+ although one of each i would consider to be lower than the grade after climbing aswell as a fair amount of 6's
my main question for anyone who has recovered from knee injury's is how to test and improve impact strength at this stage of recovery like wellsy i am fine dropping straight from around feet at head hight but still have the odd tweak when stressing the leg side to side or with a fast twich movement
as the leg now feels not bad but the improvement seems to have slowed down a little
any insight and drills would be appreciated
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I found the question "Will my knee cope with this fall / awkward movement??" was not a question I was willing to ask because if the answer is wrong then it could be a disasterous set-back. Thus erring very much on the side of caution (unlike, say, a conventional tendon injury, which you can test with incremental loading and see when it hurts, the idea of testing support and stress on a ligament during dynamic movement / falling seems considerably riskier).
Which I did start doing was introducing stability-testing and dynamic movements in a very controlled way in the gym: Very light running on a machine (initially holding the rails), bulgarian squats, careful normal weight squats, box jumps, etc. At the same time I started with very small controlled jump offs indoors. You sound much further ahead on that (dropping at head height) so maybe try to find a controlled way to do the next level. Maybe some sideways (inwards for MCL) kicks against a theraband tied to something?? Some wobble boarding?? Walking over increasingly rough ground??
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Thought I'd pop up here and, as part of "bad knee club" post my own update.
Finally got to a knee specialist yesterday.
Cause:
Controlled drop off V0 after downclimbing (to be safe!), awkward landing landing straight-legged and probably "corkscrew" style twist of left leg, all while wearing Dragons for first time in ages as the problem I'd done had a crux where I needed to dial in on a small hold.
Next Steps:
- Got home, went to bed, next day had to be helped out of bed and dressed by my better half
- A+E X-Ray, not broken, sent on my way
- Physio referral, got told soft tissue, do you exercises and it'll get better
- Improvement over next 3-4 weeks
- One night while watching TV, bent my leg to move heel towards me and something "went", and back to not being able to move
- Booked knee specialist appointment
- Improvement over next 2 weeks
- Sat at desk with leg underneath me, moved my foot back, something "went", back to terrible pain and can't straighten it
- Worked out a weird leg / foot twist where I could "pop" it back in / out and then it'd be fine
Exercise-wise, have got so bored that I've been deadhanging, and the other day decided to potter up a few V0s to see how it went. Generally fine but found that certain rockovers or weird "corkscrew" positions of the left leg just weren't feasible.
Where we are now:
Specialist reckons meniscus tear - don't want to dredge up an old thread but there's a good one if you use the search which rings a lot of bells.
He wasn't happy when I told him I'd been climbing on it!
Awaiting call on an MRI scan, which I assume will give a more detailed idea of if it's that, and how bad it is, and then what has to happen next.
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Thought I'd pop up here and, as part of "bad knee club" post my own update.
Finally got to a knee specialist yesterday.
Cause:
Controlled drop off V0 after downclimbing (to be safe!), awkward landing landing straight-legged and probably "corkscrew" style twist of left leg, all while wearing Dragons for first time in ages as the problem I'd done had a crux where I needed to dial in on a small hold.
Next Steps:
- Got home, went to bed, next day had to be helped out of bed and dressed by my better half
- A+E X-Ray, not broken, sent on my way
- Physio referral, got told soft tissue, do you exercises and it'll get better
- Improvement over next 3-4 weeks
- One night while watching TV, bent my leg to move heel towards me and something "went", and back to not being able to move
- Booked knee specialist appointment
- Improvement over next 2 weeks
- Sat at desk with leg underneath me, moved my foot back, something "went", back to terrible pain and can't straighten it
- Worked out a weird leg / foot twist where I could "pop" it back in / out and then it'd be fine
Exercise-wise, have got so bored that I've been deadhanging, and the other day decided to potter up a few V0s to see how it went. Generally fine but found that certain rockovers or weird "corkscrew" positions of the left leg just weren't feasible.
Where we are now:
Specialist reckons meniscus tear - don't want to dredge up an old thread but there's a good one if you use the search which rings a lot of bells.
He wasn't happy when I told him I'd been climbing on it!
Awaiting call on an MRI scan, which I assume will give a more detailed idea of if it's that, and how bad it is, and then what has to happen next.
Oh dear! goof luck with treatment. that sounds like my experience, sitting on a chair pulling up my knee, caused a reoccurrence of sever pain, after earlier injuries. Scan revealed torn meniscus. Tried non surgical stuff, still climbed albeit nervously, snowboarded a bit until I twisted it again, more immense pain. Back to the surgeon who operated and took out 3/4 of my meniscus. That was in March and its ok now, trusting it more and climbing fine. Although it does make strange rice crispy type noises when I bend it. I can look forward to a new knee now when I get osteoarthritis :(
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Meniscus tear sounds grim my friend. I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope it heels up soon and doesn't need anything too invasive. It is a massive shitter though.
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Cheers both.
Maybe I'm being optimistic, but the fact I can do day-to-day stuff now without that much discomfort (i.e. up and down stairs, and can kind of bend / kneel down if I really, really have to), I'm kind of hoping that means it isn't too severe - as in if it was a serious tear I'd still be hobbling about being helped to get dressed.
The "sticking" / "going" - not really sure how to describe it - is annoying and painful, but thankfully only randomly happens, and I at least know the trick to "click it back".
Just been to local gym for first time - at least now I have a legitimate reason to skip leg day and just work on my beach muscles all the time!
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If its any consolation, I lived with the clicking in and out bit for quite a few years, I didn't realise it was a meniscus problem though. Only when it got really bad and I experienced the 'sitting and pulling knee back' pain did I get it diagnosed, from then till surgery wasn't long at all.
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My knee has snapped and cracked since my teens (seems running and stomping in army boots isn't good for you). I avoided doing any running until I was in my late 40s, for fear of making it worse, but it hasn't made any difference (yet....).