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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: bigironhorse on October 13, 2019, 09:02:37 pm
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I have been eating little meat for the last few years but have recently switched to a 99% plant based diet, having cut out dairy. I am still eating eggs, probably average 1 a day. I feel like I am not getting enough protein in each meal as I have an insatiable appetite and am losing weight despite eating like a horse.
Anyone reccomend any easy plant based complete protein sources or supplements?
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Almond butter. Expensive though. I use it to make almond butter/banana/egg pancakes for breakfast. Sprinkle on some mixed nuts and it's a big protein hit.
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There are relatively few sources complete plant proteins. I believe soy is; as I really enjoy cooking with tofu and tempeh this is great for me. There are some grains too and, I think almonds, as Pete mentions. I'm sure you know this but there are three mains sources of plant protein: legumes (beans, lentils etc.), grains, and nuts. There used to be a belief that you needed to be always combining from two of those groups to ensure complete proteins, e.g. beans on toast or pita and humous. I was always sceptical about the idea that you needed to make sure every meal included a combination that would provide complete proteins and that now seems to be the accepted view. Just eat a good mix across the day. I quite often eat a meal without any really significant protein source.
Some of the new fake meats such as Beyond Burger etc. obviously offer complete proteins (as must many of the older ones) but I'm not a fan at all (though if I'm in Philly I'm going to enjoy a junky vegan cheesesteak as much as the next person). I've never used any plant based protein powders.
Are you sure a lack of protein is the cause of feeling hungry and losing weight, especially as you're eating an egg a day? Could it not be a reduction in calorific intake? Do you feel unable to train/benefit from training or carry out the level of physical activity you would like to? Personally I've never had trouble satisfying hunger on a vegan diet. In general, I think there's sometimes too much focus on proteins.
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Are you getting enough fat in your diet since switching to more plant based? This can be easy to omit from such diets, and fat leads to more satiety over a longer time period than carbs.
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Are you sure a lack of protein is the cause of feeling hungry and losing weight, especially as you're eating an egg a day? Could it not be a reduction in calorific intake?
Yes, eating food containing less available energy than is expended is the only possible way to loose weight. Conversion of energy is not an opinion, it is the law ;)
It is very common to loose weight when changing diet – any change really. This will sort it self out sooner rather than later. It is not particularly difficult to be overweight on a vegetarian diet as millions of Brahmins can attest.
If you are loosing weight bigironhorse it is probably a good idea to supplement some extra protein during this brief period of weight loss as there is strong evidence that surplus protein helps keeping most of the muscle mass. There are plenty of plant based protein powders complete in all amino acids out there.
Few plants contains all essential amino acids, but that is not a problem for people with a varied diet. If you are eating the same thing day in day out it can be a problem.
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Eggs are a surprisingly crap form of protein - roughly about 5g per egg.
You would need to eat 10 eggs to get the same as a chicken breast (50g).
Probably the easiest (and cheapest) way to get a decent non-meat protein hit, is a pint of cow or soya milk with a (20 g) serving of whey protein which gives you a total of 35/38g of protein.:
Pint of (cows) milk give you 18 g
Soya milk 15 g
Oat milk 5 g
Almond milk 2g
I think the general consensus, is that you should have a minimum of 1g of protein per kg of weight (up to 2g for an athlete). I think it is pretty challenging to achieve with a vegan diet.
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Beans.
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baked beans are around 5g of protein per 100g, so you need to eat a fair few of them.
An issue with this is that this would also account for a fair proportion of your daily calories. Beans and pulses are relatively nutritionally weak compared to colourful vegetables. Therefore, it may be better to consume a more concentrated form of protein and lots of vegetables to make up the calories.
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I think the general consensus, is that you should have a minimum of 1g of protein per kg of weight (up to 2g for an athlete).
I was reading about this the other day. This guy (https://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/protein/protein-supplementation-effective-aka-much-protein-need/) suggests 20g at a time, six times a day, and the common way of basing it on weight isn't right.
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Baked beans are not great in a lot of ways though. Protein wise most beans are better, and soya are loads better. Lentils and chickpeas are good too.
If you've just cut out dairy I'd speculate the hunger and weight loss (ie not enough calories) is likely more from reduction in fat than protein, so more nuts could be a good change?
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Are insects vegan? Guess not.
Anyways, in case anyone's interested they range from Caterpilliars at 28g of protein per 100g to the lowly weevil at 6.7 g.
I tried some fried caterpillars and crickets last week - it would be pretty hard work to eat 100g of them. It would be good for the tooth pick industry though.
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baked beans are around 5g of protein per 100g, so you need to eat a fair few of them.
Baked beans are also packed full of sugar and salt, and so processed I hoover them up so fast I'm still hungry enough for a couple of cheese sandwiches afterwards
I usually have bean salad for lunch. e.g. whole tin of cooked haricots drained (240g) , 80g each Spinach, and tomatoes, 40g sliced red onion and 40g radishes. This works out at nearly 20g of protein and leaves me full enough to last til dinner without snacks.
I started adding a tablespoon of chopped nuts/seeds or nut butter to my morning porridge for a 5g protein boost.
The 2 squares (20g) of 85% dark chocolate I have after dinner is another 2.25g of protein
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Beefcake caterpillars. :weakbench: I knew they were a worthy enemy. What were caterpillars like to eat? Had some cricket tacos in the US, they were ok (bit spicy for me), I think eating loads would be an effort though.
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I tried some fried caterpillars and crickets last week - it would be pretty hard work to eat 100g of them. It would be good for the tooth pick industry though.
:D have your first wad :D
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I reckon midges must be packed with protein, and it would be nice to actually put them to some good.
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Beefcake caterpillars. :weakbench: What were caterpillars like to eat? Had some cricket tacos in the US, they were ok (bit spicy for me), I think eating loads would be an effort though.
They tasted pretty much the same - crunchy. It was at an open evening at my daughters school. Thought I would impress the crowd by shovelling in a handful of each. It didn't work. Hacked up a wing later in the evening that had got lodged in my throat.
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The residents of Lake Victoria already do
https://www.informationng.com/2015/07/fly-eating-residents-lake-victoria-makes-burger-flies.html
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The residents of Lake Victoria already do
https://www.informationng.com/2015/07/fly-eating-residents-lake-victoria-makes-burger-flies.html
Any scottish UKBers want to try this next spring? Ca't really imagine what they would taste of, or the texture. Can you imagine if they became popular enough, that we managed to endanger the highland midge? I could actually go to Scotland in the summer then.
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Bug Wall Climbing (https://www.climbing.com/people/bug-wall-climbing-el-cap-on-a-bug-diet/)
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Lizards eat nothing but insects- look at how good at climbing they are. Seems to be stretching the defnition of plant based though. Is it as in "lives on a plant"?
Baked beans are the most dehydrating foodstuff in my experience- not sure why as they don't taste particularly salty.
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The residents of Lake Victoria already do
https://www.informationng.com/2015/07/fly-eating-residents-lake-victoria-makes-burger-flies.html
Fascinating, thanks. There is a nice video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=YcXsx8gpN9M
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We seem to have strayed somewhat from the OP.
Personally this has just left me craving a plate of beans on toast.
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When I was a kid/teen, a school friend’s father worked in Zambia. My friend would spend the summer holidays down there and return each September with bags of dried Mopane worms (I think they’re a caterpillar) and we’d gleefully chomp on them in front of class mates, who would gag at the thought and on occasion actually vomit (it was a Maths class, and boy did she let rip, just as the teacher walked in).
Anyway, they were actually pretty good, taste and texture-wise, it’s only the physical appearance that makes them hard to eat.
We also had an Aussie exchange teacher once, who brought in roast Witchetty grub for us to sample. I recall that being ok too.
Why don’t we eat insects?
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Because they look like insects?
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A guy in Sheffield makes/made energy bars made from Cricket powder and gave us a load to 'test'. It was pretty much unanimous that they tasted awful.
It looks as though he's sold the business, so presumably some people like em
https://www.yumpabar.com/
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Most, if not all, plant proteins are not as easily absorbed as animal protein. So what it says on the label probably won't be what's absorbed. Minimum protein requirement for non-active folk is about 0.8 to 1g per kg bodyweight, about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet. I remember reading a while back that hemp powder was good - add to water. Not a great taste and you need to drink a fair bit of it.
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I stopped eating meat for various reasons a few years ago now. However, the difficulties noted on here are why I still eat fish on a regular basis.
If not fish, to get my protein I eat lots of nuts, eggs, milk, beans, tofu and grains, but also go for some of the more manufactured stuff like quorn, soy based burgers and meat substitutes, etc. Many of these are fairly high in protein (17g for a burger for example), but I've no idea what the quality or absorption stats are like, and I'm also unsure about whether it is actually healthy to be eating such processed foods. Currently convenience wins for me here.
Anecdotally I don't feel I've lost anything in terms of muscle mass, strength, etc. and in fact have bouldered a lot harder since giving it up than I ever did before, but clearly impossible to know whether that is because of or in spite of the diet change.
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A guy in Sheffield makes/made energy bars made from Cricket powder and gave us a load to 'test'. It was pretty much unanimous that they tasted awful.
I've bought cricket flour and made homemade protein balls with it, some of them pretty decent (chili peanut was the best so far).
It's got a slightly salty/savoury quality to it, but IMHO it doesn't taste any worse than many protein powders (and way better than pea protein).
Right now it's expensive but with more demand and wider production it's expected the price will drop sharply. And really, we should be eating more insects -- very high quality protein with a very low environmental footprint.
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about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet.
I can't agree. I was very physically active for many years on a vegan diet without suffering any ill effects (that I noticed anyway).
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about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet.
I can't agree. I was very physically active for many years on a vegan diet without suffering any ill effects (that I noticed anyway).
Nah, the vegan diets don't suffice for an athlete. That's why Ondra is so crap at climbing, and why Carl Lewi had such an awful 1991.
Seriously.
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about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet.
I can't agree. I was very physically active for many years on a vegan diet without suffering any ill effects (that I noticed anyway).
Nah, the vegan diets don't suffice for an athlete. That's why Ondra is so crap at climbing, and why Carl Lewi had such an awful 1991.
Seriously.
"I asked Adam about his diet, and he described what he eats as a lot of nuts and seeds, he eats a lot of grains, he eats a lot of vegetables and fruits. The main difference that he said between his diet now and his diet a few years ago is that he figured out that he needs more protein. Instead of eating fish two times a week like he used to, he is now eating fish once a day." from https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/adam-ondra-silence/
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Remember to add up all the protein when arriving at a total. It’s easy to focus on the protein in the chicken or beans, but forget the protein in the broccoli etc. It’s still counts.
Anyway, it may be hard to eat 2g/kg of protein on a vegan diet but where so these numbers come from? I’m suspicious that there is a marketing agenda behind a lot of what we take as read. There are an awful lot of vegan body builders on Instagram who are either lying or are not struggling to make gains with a lot less protein than that. As climbers gaining a load of weight isn’t the aim, so surely we don’t need as much protein as a body builder?
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There are an awful lot of vegan body builders on Instagram who are either lying or are not struggling to make gains with a lot less protein than that.
Are steroids vegan?
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I’ve been using vegan protein powder from MyProtein for the past couple of months, mainly because my wife bought a massive pack and then decided she doesn’t like it. It’s not as nice as whey, and it needs shaking after being left in a bag for a couple of hours, but it seems pretty decent. I also swapped to Schneider Brot protein bread (in Asda) for my main crag food (with peanut butter) - tasty and remains intact after being bashed with a GriGri, etc. It’s made from a mixture of wheat, pea and soya protein.
I try to keep my protein up generally (with tuna / sardines / cottage cheese mainly), especially since listening to John Kettle’s Traning Beta episode. I upped my protein the day after listening (to about 150g a day @ 90kg - probably nearer the 100g mark currently) and the creaking knee which had been irritating my wife and kids every time I walked up the stairs for the previous few months miraculously went silent and has not returned. Obvs hardly scientific but if not related then a bizarre coincidence.
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There are an awful lot of vegan body builders on Instagram who are either lying or are not struggling to make gains with a lot less protein than that.
Are steroids vegan?
Why do people think that steroids somehow magically make muscle? You still need the building blocks. If they are fully vegan plus steroids isn’t that just more evidence that you can get enough vegan protein?
Assuming they are telling the truth about being vegan of course.
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Anyway, it may be hard to eat 2g/kg of protein on a vegan diet but where so these numbers come from? I’m suspicious that there is a marketing agenda behind a lot of what we take as read. There are an awful lot of vegan body builders on Instagram who are either lying or are not struggling to make gains with a lot less protein than that. As climbers gaining a load of weight isn’t the aim, so surely we don’t need as much protein as a body builder?
This systematic review article looked at the protein intake requirements of "energy-restricted resistance-trained athletes" e.g. skinny climbers. Due to the calorific deficit, the protein requirements are concluded to be even higher at 2.3–3.1g/kg.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765
PDF here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257350851_A_Systematic_Review_of_Dietary_Protein_During_Caloric_Restriction_in_Resistance_Trained_Lean_Athletes_A_Case_for_Higher_Intakes
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So this is if you are replacing carbs as a fuel source with protein?
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Well it's what the scientific consensus is for long-term health. Dietary effects can take decades.
about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet.
I can't agree. I was very physically active for many years on a vegan diet without suffering any ill effects (that I noticed anyway).
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So this is if you are replacing carbs as a fuel source with protein?
My understanding is that:
Body fat percentage decreased with a calorific deficit
If there was insufficient protein, this also corresponded with a decrease in lean body mass (muscle)
This was the case even for subjects with a slight (200 calories/day) calorie deficit.
As a review article it don't give much in the way of explanation into the mechanisms behind this. The individual papers included in the review might be more enlightening.
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Lewis was juiced up to the gills.
about 1.5 to 2 grams for active folk. Very hard to achieve on a vegan diet.
I can't agree. I was very physically active for many years on a vegan diet without suffering any ill effects (that I noticed anyway).
Nah, the vegan diets don't suffice for an athlete. That's why Ondra is so crap at climbing, and why Carl Lewi had such an awful 1991.
Seriously.
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Well, as I carry on through my fourth decade of being vegan, I guess I'm going to find out.
Edit: I'm not being sarcastic.
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I’ve been using vegan protein powder from MyProtein for the past couple of months, mainly because my wife bought a massive pack and then decided she doesn’t like it.
I get a lot of energy gels and bars this way, including a large box of mixed CLIF bars, which are generally grim and not suited to eating on the go.
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Nah, the vegan diets don't suffice for an athlete. That's why Ondra is so crap at climbing, and why Carl Lewis had such an awful 1991.
Lewis was juiced up to the gills.
Are steroids vegan?
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The Game Changers film is on Netflix today I’m sure it won’t be lacking in bias, but imagine it will be worth a watch!
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Anyone added protein powder to bread - with any success?
(we make all our own bread at home..)
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Well, as I carry on through my fourth decade of being vegan, I guess I'm going to find out.
People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.
The scientific consensus is that it is 'optimal' to have a high protein intake, however the benefit may only be marginal, particularly in the context of all the other factors dictating sporting success. It is reasonable to conclude that any small benefit is not worth the ethical, financial and environmental cost of a high protein diet.
Having said that, if I as looking at going vegan. I would probably look to supplement with some high-protein sources that are minimally processed e.g. rice-protein powder, soy milk, peanut butter.
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Well, as I carry on through my fourth decade of being vegan, I guess I'm going to find out.
People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.
Jeez, I guess I'm lucky not to have gone blind yet, or something.
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Well, as I carry on through my fourth decade of being vegan, I guess I'm going to find out.
People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.
Jeez, I guess I'm lucky not to have gone blind yet, or something.
Apologies no offence intended, that wasn't meant as judgement of your diet :sorry:
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No worries. I just wanted to point out that analogy made little sense, but I could have been less sarky myself.
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People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.
Sounds quite balanced compared to this; https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/food/4662596/fussy-11-year-old-boy-eaten-custard-digestive-biscuits-baby-food-hypnotherapy/
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People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.
JB was fully sighted last time I met him?
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To be fair, JB does have greens in his diet too. The green haribo.
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I'm not so sure Andy is a proper vegan. Too smart and good humoured, a luxurious beard and not enough sanctimonious preaching.
(On the subject of which does anyone remember the woman who ran Zeds On The Edge health food / vegetarian store in Sheffield?? Pale, wan, haggard and thoroughly miserable. I always thought she was a great advert for the omnivorous life-style)
Anyway. I was encouraged to add some more protein to my diet last year due to digestive issues and dietary restrictions, and I quite liked Pulsin Pea Protein powder, especially cooking with it. Hard fry a few eggs (or your prefered vegan egg-alternative of choice) with a large dusting of the powder, it formed a nice crust etc.
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I'm not so sure Andy is a proper vegan. Too smart and good humoured, a luxurious beard and not enough sanctimonious preaching.
(On the subject of which does anyone remember the woman who ran Zeds On The Edge health food / vegetarian store in Sheffield?? Pale, wan, haggard and thoroughly miserable. I always thought she was a great advert for the omnivorous life-style)
Anyway. I was encouraged to add some more protein to my diet last year due to digestive issues and dietary restrictions, and I quite liked Pulsin Pea Protein powder, especially cooking with it. Hard fry a few eggs (or your prefered vegan egg-alternative of choice) with a large dusting of the powder, it formed a nice crust etc.
I remember the lady from Zeds :). It's a slightly more cheerful place now but still has a slight air of melancholy ;).
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/animals-and-us/201812/the-baffling-connection-between-vegetarianism-and-depression
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The Game Changers film is on Netflix today I’m sure it won’t be lacking in bias, but imagine it will be worth a watch!
Watched this last week. Certainly didn't lack bias.
They didn't speak to anyone who changed to a vegan diet and caused them a perceived issue for example.
And I wasn't sure about some of the claims.
What i did take from it was that I could eat more plant based protein and be none the worse for it.
Oat milk seems to work well so far.
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Yeah, I imagine you could make a similar film in reverse if you picked different athletes with different stories. On balance I imagine veganism done sensibly is fairly neutral with respect to athletic performance.
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Yeah, I imagine you could make a similar film in reverse if you picked different athletes with different stories.
I guess you’d have a lot wider choice of athletes if you wanted to pick those with a non-restrictive diet!
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Sunwarrior make a good quality plant protein made from a blend of different sources to ensure all your bases are covered.
https://uk.iherb.com/pr/Sunwarrior-Warrior-Blend-Protein-Organic-Plant-Based-Chocolate-1-65-lb-750-g/76186?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdMSH-tfZr-__zPEha78as3_8pJwUBIFymPPDu4-t0_wAO5I4S7F80UaAt8JEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Bioavailability of protein should be a big consideration when avoiding meat and fish. Just because a plant has Xg of protein in it, doesn't mean you will be able to extract that amount from it.
Eat more eggs and fish would be a better option than baked beans.
Everyoneis different, some people thrive on a vegan diet, many people don't. Genetics plays a big part, as does the state of your gut biome and how well you can digest the food you are eating
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The Game Changers film is on Netflix today I’m sure it won’t be lacking in bias, but imagine it will be worth a watch!
Watched this last week. Certainly didn't lack bias.
They didn't speak to anyone who changed to a vegan diet and caused them a perceived issue for example.
And I wasn't sure about some of the claims.
What i did take from it was that I could eat more plant based protein and be none the worse for it.
Oat milk seems to work well so far.
Anyone watching The Game Changers should also watch Dave MacLeod's fantastic riposte:
https://youtu.be/grtMHppLL34
Takes it apart pretty comprehensively.
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There are some obvious fallacies in his environmental arguments, but other than that it is top bantz. Especially the strong as an ox bit.
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Anyone getting nutrition advice from Netflix needs a rethink.
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Anyone watching The Game Changers should also watch Dave MacLeod's fantastic riposte:
Takes it apart pretty comprehensively.
The riposte to a riposte to a riposte of Game Changers seems to have become a productive internet cottage industry.
I watched it and enjoyed it but then I probably didn't take it too literally - the presenters "I thought you could only succeed on steak" perceived start point wasn't where I was coming from - and it's it's more exaggerated elements that are easiest to nit pick.
Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is) disagreeing with a pro vegan film is hardly a surprise - and I did think it fell foul of some of the same things it was criticising - the use of anecdotes for vegan health issues (how's that better than cherry picking the athletes you talk to), a certain amount of what felt like loose use of science (the whole "the hunter should know that prey need predators to be healthy" - yeah, sure, but what relevance that has to the bulk of his audience who likely consume farmed meat I don't quite know, it's hardly a natural predator prey environment is it), and so on.
Which is a shame, because some of the points - the regular use of the western junk food diet as the baseline against which go measure improvements, and its relevance also in terms of whether a "vegan junk food diet" nets you any of the usually claimed health benefits, felt like very relevant points to bring out.
It seems like a very polarising topic that makes it difficult to argue pros and cons in a measured way.
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Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is)
Ketogenic
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Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is)
Ketogenic
My recollection (which I haven't rechecked) was that he mentioned a carnivore diet several times during his review, which is what led me to be unsure as to whether he was on a ketogenic or a carnivore diet or somewhere in between them.
Is he definitely keto rather than carnivore then?
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Is he definitely keto rather than carnivore then?
Yes definitely, perhaps not all the time but certainly seems to be his main diet.
Agree there were a few comments I took with a pinch of salt but it just laid bare how fundamentally flawed Game Changers is as a film. I thought the anecdotes about certain vegans just added colour to his central argument; as in, he showed clear examples of vegans, including those in the film, who actually weren't vegan at all, or hadn't been vegan for most of the time they'd been successful, or had been vegan but stopped due to health concerns. It was more about debunking the "veganism is the solution" argument than trying to prove that his approach is the way forward.
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Yes definitely, perhaps not all the time but certainly seems to be his main diet.
Agree there were a few comments I took with a pinch of salt but it just laid bare how fundamentally flawed Game Changers is as a film. I thought the anecdotes about certain vegans just added colour to his central argument; as in, he showed clear examples of vegans, including those in the film, who actually weren't vegan at all, or hadn't been vegan for most of the time they'd been successful, or had been vegan but stopped due to health concerns. It was more about debunking the "veganism is the solution" argument than trying to prove that his approach is the way forward.
Interesting difference in view points. It probably is worth people watching both, because whilst I found the film moderately interesting (albeit none of that was really putting too much weight on the more easily corrected areas of it, I don’t think - I’m neither vegetarian nor vegan, but to the extent I’m interested in either it’s from an environmental/welfare perspective; I don’t think at my level I’m really in a place where the minutiae of dieting, bar an obvious focus on power:weight, is the limiting factor so diet as a performance driver is of relatively low relevance) and the riposte slightly frustrating (in that I definitely felt that valid and more tenuous critiques were being dumped together to try to add weight to a rebuttal that was inevitable even before he clicked play, and that therefore valid critiques I’d have liked to hear more about were slightly lost) you’ve obviously taken them very differently. I suppose I see them as two biased information sources playing off against each other, rather than a fundamentally flawed film being demolished by a clear rebuttal...
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It’s almost as if the Guardian takes its editorial steer from UKB!
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/29/is-veganism-as-good-for-you-as-they-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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On the subject of rational critique regarding the Netflix piece 'Game Changers' there was an episode of the Joe Rogan podcast recently that did a fairly good job. Episode #1389 for anyone who cares to listen. Here is the episode description:
Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine. Link to notes from this podcast by Chris Kresser: http://kresser.co/gamechangers
I get that many people are not Joe Rogan fans but his guest Chris Kresser does most of the heavy lifting and is an interesting fella. Previously vegan, now omnivore, with as many qualifications as anyone in the diet/nutrition sphere. Very rational and analytical in his methodology.
My personal take: I'm slightly worried anyone would believe any argument put forward by the Game Changers gang when they are using Roman era Gladiators (I.e. Slaves/prisoners of war) being on a vegan diet (gruel) as an example of a well honed diet of a performance athlete. How about the more realistic interpretation that those poor souls, who were being sent to their deaths, were simply given the absolutely cheapest food available in order to keep them alive... Long enough to die for the amusement of their owners?
Also there was a rather strange 'Anthropologist' lady who was making some outrageous claims counter to the entire body of reasonably accepted archaeological and anthropological (my area of study...) knowledge. Things like we didn't evolve to eat meat because we don't have sharp teeth and claws... Did she skip the millions of years that eating meat/fat is thought to have provided enough energy for us to support larger brains and thus wield tools/weapons. Which in turn render the claws and sharp teeth redundant and ultimately lead us to being the absolute prime species who has conquered almost ever habitat one earth, plundered it for all its resources?
Anyway, was a good laugh. Shame they didn't produce an actual balanced documentary... But that wouldn't be nearly as polarising or get a fraction of the views/clicks/SM mentions or whatever other metric the data overloads value these days?
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Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine.
He may or may not be right about the original documentary, but this sounds like a bunch of hokum. A quick google suggests the man has a business - the Kresser Academy, no less - to sell. Those exact words turn up in multiple search results suggesting that they're his own self-penned piece of puffery. As far as I can tell L.Ac means licensed acupuncturist. I presume from M.S he has a Masters. Hardly sounds like as many qualifications as anyone in the world of diet/nutrition. Conversely, I wonder why the "anthropologist lady" get apostrophised? Are her claims to that description suspect?
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Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine.
He may or may not be right about the original documentary, but this sounds like a bunch of hokum. A quick google suggests the man has a business - the Kresser Academy, no less - to sell. Those exact words turn up in multiple search results suggesting that they're his own self-penned piece of puffery. As far as I can tell L.Ac means licensed acupuncturist. I presume from M.S he has a Masters. Hardly sounds like as many qualifications as anyone in the world of diet/nutrition. Conversely, I wonder why the "anthropologist lady" get apostrophised? Are her claims to that description suspect?
Not that I've watched it - in going on the title and some commentary I've seen on it - but didn't Kressner and Wills do a subsequent head to head on Rogans show where Kressner basically got taken to bits?
The quote comes from a vegan website, but the Instagram comment appears to be there:
Sharing the episode on Instagram, Rogan wrote: "[James Wilks] one of the producers of The Game Changers came on to challenge some of the criticism that Chris Kresser presented about the movie, and to say he did well would be a tremendous understatement. James knocked it out of the park and defended himself and the film quite spectacularly. So much so that I'm actually considering taking the original breakdown of the film offline
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Just to be clear, despite being vegan I have zero interest in defending The Game Changer (which I haven't watched) or in rebutting the rebuttals (likewise haven't watched or read); I'm just not sure Kresser should be taken as a great authority.
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There seem to me to be good moral and environmental arguments for veganism given the nature of most industrial farming. Perhaps not as much if you were a subsistence farmer or could be completely sure of your food sources but neither apply to most people reading this. I doubt if there are health benefits versus "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." I am not a vegan.
I love bread and pastries and I’d have to be convinced there were spectacular gains to be made to adopt a Keto diet. I’m not. The ClimbSci podcast episode 9 ‘Ketogenic diets’ is worth a listen.
I’m inherently suspicious of nutritional research, so much of it is really low quality: using fasted individuals as your control group to ‘prove’ the benefits of your supplement for example. Much of it is funded by the body dysmorphia industry. I have tried upping my protein in the last 6 months, seen some possible benefits in recovery and another health issue, nothing spectacular so not sure at the moment.
Much of the appeal of ‘Paleo’ diets is a winning combination of nostalgia and natural is good. See also barefoot running, anthrax, and dentistry without anaesthetic. The premise seems to be we stopped evolving 15 000 years ago. Given the variety of diets worldwide (until recently) and the individual degrees of adaptation to different foods (lactose and alcohol tolerances vary widely between individuals) this is clearly as bollocks as ‘functional and integrative medicine’. Aldi’s Paleo date and cashew bars are yummy though...
Ray Davies on Paleo diets:
https://youtu.be/aRHqs8SffDo
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Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet.. but less for ONLY a plant based diet.
There is a lack of decent science on this (we rh guardian article I linked 4-5 posts back discusses) - and it’s so it’s to come up with meaningful comparisons - as we are all different, metabolise in a different way, have different tolerances and intolerances, all eat different amounts of various food groups - that’s all sourced in different places! Fuck!
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Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet..
Citation needed 😄
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Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet..
Citation needed 😄
That was: ‘TomTom, December 2019. UKB: diet training and injuries’.
To bang my old drum: there’s plenty of eveidence for the damaging effects to health of eating too much refined sugar and too much processed food. A vegan diet or a paleo diet will cut down consumption of refined sugar and processed food.
The health benefits of paleo or vegan seem, to me at least, unlikely to come from what you’re eating but more likely to come from what you’re not.
Compare the well-known health benefits when you stop or reduce consumption of alcohol... Nobody claims their amazing new ‘water and soft drink diet’ is making the difference. (Unless you’re a nutcase fruitarian.)
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"Aldi’s Paleo date and cashew bars are yummy though"
Too right. I think they're leading me down a rapid road to type 2 diabetes.
The nail in the coffin in game changers for me was the battle ropes bit. For those who haven't seen it, he does the battle ropes for an hour, whereas previously he'd only been able to do half an hour. Put the 100% performance increase entirely down to being vegan. What a ludicrous claim. Its like suggesting that if Usain bolt went vegan, he'd instantly be able to run a 38 second 400 metres.
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I think a MORE plant based diet is the key here. I'm mainly interested in environmental impact when it comes to not eating animals, rather than health benefits. But there's nothing to say you have to completely give it all up. I try and drive my car less and go on fewer flights, but have no intention of selling my car. Surely its that first 80% reduction that is the biggest difference most people can make. And I guess that goes for any possible health benefits too
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^^ yup.
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There is a Dave Mac vlog of him watching that Game Changers film and making many of these points. It's more entertaining than it sounds because of his obvious efforts to maintain a diplomatic tone when he clearly thinks it's bollocks.
Not so entertaining that I watched to the end though . . .
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Film yourself - we need a video of someone watching a video of Dave Mac watching a video 😁
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Finally managed to make my way through the first 2 hours of the Joe Rogan podcast with James Wilks (from The Game Changers) and Chris Kresser (who had previously done an episode debunking the documentary).
In the first 30 minutes of the debate, they spent most of it focusing on the statistical validity of a meta-analysis of studies looking at whether dairy consumption is a potential cause of cancer, and Wilks was astonishingly wedded to the idea that it is a cause, despite the vast majority of the studies reviewed showing either no correlation or a reduction in risk! He focused exclusively instead on the 16% of the studies which showed an increased risk…16%! It’s a classic case of looking for evidence to prove your hypothesis, and twisting the statistics to do so, rather than considering the evidence in a detached an unemotional way.
They went into vitamin B12 deficiencies in great depth, but all Wilks succeeded in doing is proving that you should eat grass fed meat, not grain fed and supplemented meat, or take a B12 supplement irrespective of your diet. He completely ignored the clear evidence of consistent and significant vitamin B12 deficiencies in vegans.
I thought James came across as very articulate, but he spent most of the time trying to attack the expertise of Chris Kresser rather than actually providing evidence for the claims made in the film! They spend ages debating macro-nutrient intake, which has literally nothing to do with the validity of a vegan diet. It’s classic deflection tactics and Chris rightly and repeatedly made the point that the burden of proof – where James and Game Changers is claiming, for example, that dairy causes cancer – is on James, and he completely failed to meet that burden. James even at one point accuses Chris of having a point of view and working backwards from that to find studies which prove his opinion, despite repeatedly and dogmatically doing the exact same thing himself!
Chris made a particularly excellent point around 45 minutes in – that the most important thing is the overall pattern of diet quality, not the macro nutrient or food type breakdown. I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I'm not saying Chris is a particularly reliable source on his own. As the debate wore on he did seem to flounder. However that doesn't make Wilks' or the Game Changers' arguments any more valid.
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Thanks for the summary Bradders - glad that you put yourself through it rather than me :)
They went into vitamin B12 deficiencies in great depth, but all Wilks succeeded in doing is proving that you should eat grass fed meat, not grain fed and supplemented meat, or take a B12 supplement irrespective of your diet. He completely ignored the clear evidence of consistent and significant vitamin B12 deficiencies in vegans.
Slight side point but related to this. I've been vegetarian for about 20 months now (not for any notion of performance, but environmental and animal welfare reasons), and I've only just come across these supplements (https://www.vegansociety.com/shop/veg-1-supplements) by the vegan society. Very affordable, and from my non-expert position they seem to have been thought out simply to provide the things you're likely missing if you are vegan rather than trying to sell a some wacky nutrition fad.
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Ha no worries, still haven't listened to the whole thing though!
Thanks for the link, those look good value. I'm not sure if it's correct but they all seemed to agree at least that pretty much everyone should be supplementing vit B12, regardless of diet.
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There was a good frrakonomics podcast called "how to change your mind". Seemed to say that on the whole, humans like to think that we look at evidence and make an informed decision on something. In reality that rarely happens, and we first form our views based on all sorts of complex biases, and then go hunting for evidence to support it afterwards.
Well worth a listen.
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There was a good frrakonomics podcast called "how to change your mind". Seemed to say that on the whole, humans like to think that we look at evidence and make an informed decision on something. In reality that rarely happens, and we first form our views based on all sorts of complex biases, and then go hunting for evidence to support it afterwards.
Well worth a listen.
Totally disagree
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There was a good frrakonomics podcast called "how to change your mind". Seemed to say that on the whole, humans like to think that we look at evidence and make an informed decision on something. In reality that rarely happens, and we first form our views based on all sorts of complex biases, and then go hunting for evidence to support it afterwards.
Well worth a listen.
Confirmation bias? I've not listened to it, but i expect it will be true and very good. ;)
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Basically yes. But mainly about the reason it's hard for us to change our minds about something is that overwhelming evidence isn't really enough to overcome the tiny scrap of evidence that supports our initial belief.
The really interesting bit I think is where that initial belief comes from.