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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 03:54:32 pm

Title: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 03:54:32 pm
Since returning from my summer alpine rock adventures I’ve pretty much made the decision to not do anything like that again for a while / until I’ve got more time than I know what to do with. Instead, I want to train and I want to go sport climbing. And therefore it seems sensible to revert to my long-held ambition of climbing 8a.

The main obstacles standing in my way are:

I am very fat. At 95kg I’m probably 10kg heavier that I was when I climbed my hardest. However, I lost a load of weight when I was psyched earlier in the year, and am fairly confident I can drop down to 80-85kg, or even a bit more.

I am very weak. I haven’t got a pulley set up yet for my Beastmaker (which also sags slightly overhanging) and everything but the big holds either end seems impossible. And last time I tried the 45deg board at the local wall it all felt far too difficult. Being heavy is obvs a major contributing factor to this.

I live on the coast in the SE and therefore miles away from any sport climbing. Portland is 3 1/2 hours away. I realise there are quite a few places in the SW (Brean, Cheddar, Ansteys, etc) that could be done in a day.

I can be pretty flexible midweek, but weekends need forward planning due to usual family stuff.

On the plus side, I have a big garage that is hopefully going to be cleared out later in the year. I’m thinking I should be able to fit a 45deg board, and maybe a longer 15deg circuit board too. I have a fairly decent local bouldering wall (Chimera) and can get to a lead / autobelay wall (White Spider) midweek too. The first job is to remount the BM so it stays level and sort out pulleys, etc. And I have some rings, plus weights / kettlebells, etc. My previous peak level was 7b+, of which I did a few (one of which I virtually flashed) and bouldering-wise 7A I think. I wasn’t training much / at all back then, but getting out fairly frequently.

From the small amount of sport climbing and bouldering I did on hols, the obvious issue was finger strength / being too heavy / powering out. Because we were aiming to do routes, I’d done quite a bit of aerobic stuff at the wall in the months leading up to the trip, so that was fine. Mid 6 boulders and routes were fine, but the (bouldery) 7a and 7A things I tried were just not happening.

Which brings me to the conclusion (partly based on Alex B’s thoughts about strength) that my best short term plan might be a two-pronged attack - shed the weight, and concentrate solely on bouldering for the time being. And in terms of the wall, focus more on steeper, fingery, board type stuff firstly, and then do the other stuff plus a bit of aero towards the end of sessions.

Realistically, bouldering weekends / trips with the family have a far higher likelihood of success for the next year or two. And weekend sport climbing day trips could be planned at 4-6 week intervals to monitor progress.

This is obviously a far from ideal scenario and perhaps the most sensible idea would be to sack it off and take up golf. But I would very much appreciate a critique and some suggestions...
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: csl on September 05, 2017, 04:24:50 pm
Losing weight and getting stronger sounds like a great idea whatever you choose, but it might be a good idea to think about the style of route you would like to aim for or think you'd be suited to? What is required for a short UK 8a will be quite different to a 40m enduro route in Spain, and may inform your training once you've begun the process.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: SA Chris on September 05, 2017, 04:33:47 pm
Whatever you do, don't take up golf!

Or cycling!

Good job, get on it, very admirable quest. I think first step is to find the project that plays most to your strengths, and has best chance of being in good nick, i.e accessible, not coastal  / tidal / too hot or too cold most of the year / not going to be a damp seeping mess a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 04:36:17 pm
Yes, I should've mentioned that. The climbs I've felt best on in the past have probably all been 20m or less, and fairly cruxy. I was keen on the idea of the 8s at L'Olla, Siurana, but they all seem to be 8a+ now.

This all stems from the fact that, when I've previously explored this idea, the concensus was basically climb loads of routes, a massive pyramid of sport grades working up, etc which basically is not going to happen now.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Duma on September 05, 2017, 04:41:17 pm
How old are you Yoss? losing the weight will make a big diff to the likelihood of injury, and particularly finger injury. IME this sort of thing happens more often and takes longer to recover from as you get older
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 04:55:06 pm
It should be blazingly obvious that I’ve just turned 40...
 ;)


Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 05:01:52 pm
The Cider Soak is probably the one, in terms of things down south...
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: csl on September 05, 2017, 05:04:53 pm
Yes, I should've mentioned that. The climbs I've felt best on in the past have probably all been 20m or less, and fairly cruxy. I was keen on the idea of the 8s at L'Olla, Siurana, but they all seem to be 8a+ now.

Yes, then getting strong and losing weight seems like the way to go.

With regard to

This all stems from the fact that, when I've previously explored this idea, the concensus was basically climb loads of routes, a massive pyramid of sport grades working up, etc which basically is not going to happen now.

While climbing lots of routes is obviously the ideal, my climbing is pretty similar to what you have described in the first post. 6-8 weeks between days on rock, training indoors in the meantime. As boring as it sounds, I've found getting fairly specific with route choice well in advance, and training on similar ground or perhaps even a replica works well. It keeps you motivated by having a clear target, and then makes it easier to perform on a short trip.

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: T_B on September 05, 2017, 05:14:03 pm
My mate who lives in Exeter did Leather Whip Mick as his mid-life-crisis-8a-tick. Soft and a good one if you're fat/weak apparently.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: erm, sam on September 05, 2017, 05:29:11 pm
Have you got any old fashioned non electric bathroom scales?  Use those to take weight off so you can start fingerboarding now without an excuse. Aim to be still fingerboarding in 2 months. Eg, take it super steady and don't get injured. I started with 50% bodyweight and worked up to full bodyweight hangs over a few months. Everybody talks like bodyweight hangs are a natural expectation but I just kept getting injured..
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 05:43:04 pm
I have! I will investigate - thanks for the suggestion!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 05, 2017, 05:47:51 pm
Everybody talks like bodyweight one arm hangs are a natural expectation

my edit
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 05, 2017, 07:35:19 pm
Sam and Habrich - Just tried the bathroom scales thing. Total revelation! Thank you. We’ve had a huge set of Seca scales kicking around which I was going to eBay. They work perfectly. TBH I’d not got my head around the principle of this, but now I’ve tried it I can see its genius. Also makes warming up a doddle. Thank you both.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: ben on September 05, 2017, 08:01:22 pm
The Cider Soak is probably the one, in terms of things down south...

Well I'd be keen to get on this/Leather Whip Mick as an 8a project if you're looking for partners.. (I live just east of Exeter).

Some thoughts, after redpointing my mid life crisis 8a 3 years ago (a route at Cheddar).  I chose a route that would generally be in good nick and climbable whenever the opportunity arose (no real seepage, steep enough to stay dry in rain, non-tidal). 

I basically only get one evening a week to climb (+occasional weekend days) so basically just starting working it, getting stronger on it and fine tuning beta and doing links  (plus some fingerboarding at home).  Turned into a bit of a siege (16 evening sessions) but really enjoyed the process.   Another point was choosing something that felt doable eventually (once fitter) rather than something with a really bouldery crux that you might never know if you'll manage.. if that makes sense

not sure that's helpful, as it doesn't sound like getting on a project really regularly is an option for you but..
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 09:50:21 am
Ben - I’ve been looking at the vids of Cider Soak for a while, and found the Kris Suriyo vid of Leather Whip Mick last night, and both look eminently suitable.

Depending on how things go with training, a weekend day would be great sometime in the future (if we can figure out one when we’re both free) and I’m sure I could figure something out midweek sometime, especially if we do a family trip SW at half term or before Christmas.

I’ll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on September 06, 2017, 10:16:05 am
I'm trying both these routes at the moment, though rather sporadically. Cider soak can be frustratingly seepy at times and is nails, you'll certainly be keeping your 8a tick safe with that one.

Leather whip mick is highly enjoyable and just a matter of fitness once you have the Avenged crux dialled in, I think it's bottom end 8a but still worthy of the grade. People get up to fitness on empire wall and they all start feeling soft. If you've not done Avenged it'll feel desperate on first attempt.

Let me know if you want any beta for either route, a local gave me the hose down and I've also got what I feel to be easier beta for the top of LWM
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: abarro81 on September 06, 2017, 10:18:01 am
If you struggle with getting weekends in the UK, you may end up deciding that doing one on a trip is a better fit (obviously being dependent on how holidays work - may not be feasible if holidays are all family hols!). Wasn't clear whether midweek is flexible in that you can fit training in or flexible in that you can smash all the way to a crag and climb?

One major thing is consistency, especially if motivation if a bit up and down, as it sounds from your OP like it may have been with weight loss? On that front, if you're making a training plan then being somewhat flexible with it will be important if you've got a busy life. The subtlety of exactly what you're doing is likely to matter much less than the consistency of doing something productive - especially initially.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 10:40:40 am
I'm trying both these routes at the moment, though rather sporadically. Cider soak can be frustratingly seepy at times and is nails, you'll certainly be keeping your 8a tick safe with that one.

Leather whip mick is highly enjoyable and just a matter of fitness once you have the Avenged crux dialled in, I think it's bottom end 8a but still worthy of the grade. People get up to fitness on empire wall and they all start feeling soft. If you've not done Avenged it'll feel desperate on first attempt.

Let me know if you want any beta for either route, a local gave me the hose down and I've also got what I feel to be easier beta for the top of LWM

Thanks for all of this. My current thinking is to head down for a look as soon as I’ve got my weight down to 80somethingKG, so probably late Oct / November. Realistically I think I’m going to be quite a way off strength-wise still, but hopefully being lighter will at least mean that I can have a relatively productive time figuring out the things I need to work on most.

I’ll definitely hit you up for some specific info nearer the time - thanks.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 10:59:42 am
If you struggle with getting weekends in the UK, you may end up deciding that doing one on a trip is a better fit (obviously being dependent on how holidays work - may not be feasible if holidays are all family hols!).

This was my original plan. Basically picking something with some decent videos, and then trying to train specifically for it, and also to build some sort of replica on the board (when it’s built). Bizarrely (and entirely without my coercion) my wife and sister have been talking about a group hol for next year and have figured out that somewhere with decent climbing on the doorstep would persuade me (and our daughter) so that could work really well. Ru gave me some good intel re family sport climbing ideas in the Frankenjura, and Provence is one other idea. Although my oldest 8 ambition (Chouca) is obvs 8a+, and I couldn’t get off the ground the last time I tried it...

Quote
Wasn't clear whether midweek is flexible in that you can fit training in or flexible in that you can smash all the way to a crag and climb?

I can basically do anything anytime midweek (depending on workload) but I deal with the kids in the afternoon / evening unless my wife can reorganise her work schedule, so midweek crag hits take plenty of preplanning.

Quote
One major thing is consistency, especially if motivation if a bit up and down, as it sounds from your OP like it may have been with weight loss? On that front, if you're making a training plan then being somewhat flexible with it will be important if you've got a busy life. The subtlety of exactly what you're doing is likely to matter much less than the consistency of doing something productive - especially initially.

That’s the nub of the matter. And it’s why I think the concept of intermediate goals outside, both bouldering and on ropes, is going to be the key to this. I did pretty well on psyche in the months running up to this year’s summer trip, in that I managed quite a lot of weight loss and definitely got somewhere with training (bearing in mind I was starting at zero and too heavy - thanks T_Stub for urging me not to overdo it). But in retrospect I would’ve done much better with a few days / weekends away beforehand.

And that trip was an unknown quantity, and ended up usefully proving that I didn’t in fact know what I wanted out of climbing. I thought it was adventure in the mountains. I now know that it’s progess on difficult things.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Nibile on September 06, 2017, 12:12:27 pm
Yoss,
other than what others wrote, for my part I think that you should concentrate on losing fat, rather than just losing weight.
If I were you, I'd have a serious and reliable body composition analysis, to know exactly how much fat you carry, then I'd refer to a specialist, or I'd search the Internet, to make a plan in order to maximize fat loss while maintaining as much muscle mass as possible.
I say so, because I think that you don't simply want to climb 8a, but probably you want to keep going after that.
So, this first goal could be the foundation of future years of 8th grade climbing.
I'd do everything not to simply achieve your goal, but to get fit and strong for the years to come.
In my opinion, and experience, crash diets for specific goals work only - when they work - for the specific goal, with no long term benefits. In fact, things usually get far worse than before in the long run, and people regain more fat than they lost.
Think long term, search for quality weight loss and you may achieve your goal a few months later, but you'll set the foundations for many more 8's.
Good luck!

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Obi-Wan is lost... on September 06, 2017, 12:38:59 pm
Whatever you do, don't take up golf!

Or cycling!

Cycling can be useful as a general get fit/weight loss regime and is eminently compatible with family commitments. Cycle to the wall/work/family day out etc etc. Just try not to get too addicted  ;)

Good luck on the goal, sounds fun, think the biggest issue is to avoid injury, sadly as someone in their 40s I've reluctantly accepted we don't bounce as easily or mend as quickly as we used to.  :'(
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: 36chambers on September 06, 2017, 12:54:00 pm
With regards to keeping psyche levels high, I find it helps to have plenty of small, relevant, aims written down which you can tick off on your way to the big tick.

E.g. losing 2 Kg, doing 3 fingerboard sessions, 2 PE sessions, climbing a specific board project, actually going to and trying the 8a, doing some moves, linking the crux, etc. I'd actually argue the smaller the goals the better, as consistently taking away small positives will help with motivation, and momentum, and can make the whole process very enjoyable. Allez.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 02:22:45 pm
Yoss,
other than what others wrote, for my part I think that you should concentrate on losing fat, rather than just losing weight.

I totally agree, and I am going to think carefully about it.

From my experiences earlier this year, muscle loss has not been a problem so far. I dropped 4” around my waist (from an admittedly portly starting point) whilst simultaneously finding jackets no longer fit because my shoulders got too big.

I’m aiming for 2kg or so off a month, rather than trying to rush it.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 02:27:10 pm
Whatever you do, don't take up golf!

Or cycling!

Cycling can be useful as a general get fit/weight loss regime and is eminently compatible with family commitments. Cycle to the wall/work/family day out etc etc. Just try not to get too addicted  ;)

Cycling worked well for weight loss earlier in the year, and I am going to resume it, but probably mainly specific things on the turbo trainer, and 1hr or less at a time, as I find with faffing, outdoor rides end up taking too much time. I also seem to get less interference in terms of recovery from stuff like 2x 20 and 10x 2 than I do from longer, cold outdoor rides. Zwift is great for keeping it interesting indoors.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 02:31:27 pm
With regards to keeping psyche levels high, I find it helps to have plenty of small, relevant, aims written down which you can tick off on your way to the big tick.

E.g. losing 2 Kg, doing 3 fingerboard sessions, 2 PE sessions, climbing a specific board project, actually going to and trying the 8a, doing some moves, linking the crux, etc. I'd actually argue the smaller the goals the better, as consistently taking away small positives will help with motivation, and momentum, and can make the whole process very enjoyable. Allez.

I’ve got a bit of this sort of stuff written on the fridge, but I think your suggestion of breaking it down even further is really good.

Thanks everyone for all the ideas and good wishes so far. From the various PMs I’ve received, it sounds like quite a few people have got similar goals, so hopefully sharing thoughts and reporting on progress will lead to some decent results!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 06, 2017, 02:40:42 pm
A less steep board than 45 degrees might be better at the start unless you are just planning to pull on jugs.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 02:44:18 pm
I did think that actually. When the space is clear (it’s currently full of bits of our in progress kitchen) I will work out some possible layouts and refer back to the experts (yourself included).
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 06, 2017, 02:52:49 pm
My board has been 40 degrees in its last 2 incarnations. My brother in law who built it both times, this time managed to put it up at 45 degrees. I can't do some of the warm ups now.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: cheque on September 06, 2017, 02:58:33 pm
Have you got any old fashioned non electric bathroom scales?  Use those to take weight off so you can start fingerboarding now without an excuse. Aim to be still fingerboarding in 2 months. Eg, take it super steady and don't get injured. I started with 50% bodyweight and worked up to full bodyweight hangs over a few months. Everybody talks like bodyweight hangs are a natural expectation but I just kept getting injured..

I need to do this. Am I right in thinking that you just stand on the scales and use them to measure how much you're pulling without your feet leaving them?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 06, 2017, 03:42:38 pm
I think I should be free Tues, Thursday and Friday mornings (I don't open the Wall until 12) and I'm happy to hold a rope. I live 15mins walk from Ansteys.
I've been meaning to get back into some Sport, though the thought of doing more than ~6 moves in a row is daunting...

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Nibile on September 06, 2017, 04:16:13 pm
Yoss,
other than what others wrote, for my part I think that you should concentrate on losing fat, rather than just losing weight.

I totally agree, and I am going to think carefully about it.

From my experiences earlier this year, muscle loss has not been a problem so far. I dropped 4” around my waist (from an admittedly portly starting point) whilst simultaneously finding jackets no longer fit because my shoulders got too big.

I’m aiming for 2kg or so off a month, rather than trying to rush it.
Brilliant!
 :2thumbsup:
Great start!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 06, 2017, 04:33:55 pm
I think I should be free Tues, Thursday and Friday mornings (I don't open the Wall until 12) and I'm happy to hold a rope. I live 15mins walk from Ansteys.
I've been meaning to get back into some Sport, though the thought of doing more than ~6 moves in a row is daunting...

Matt - that’s really good of you. If we head down as a family I bet my daughter would be keen for a session at your wall.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: SA Chris on September 06, 2017, 05:15:29 pm
Whatever you do, don't take up golf!

Or cycling!

Cycling can be useful as a general get fit/weight loss regime and is eminently compatible with family commitments. Cycle to the wall/work/family day out etc etc. Just try not to get too addicted  ;)


Was actually a reference to Duncan's comment to Nibile the other day. I agree, from a fat loss perspective it can be very beneficial, just don't end up with huge legs. Saying that I've done a fair bit of cycling over the last 18 months and I've still got spindles.

Regarding fat loss, i wouldn't dismiss running either, a lot less faff than getting out on bike and you can get in a much more intensive session than being on a bike (which is designed to enable you to get somewhere using less effort than walking or running in the first place). Interval sessions, or hill sessions can be good fat burners and improve your CV capacity too. Unless you have something that prevents you from running.

Also regard fat loss, be sensible with your food intake. Cut out as much alcohol as you can (I'm on about 1 - 2 units a week) and avoid eating really crap food (sweets, chocolate, crisps, fast food, sugary drinks) as much as possible. If you are on a sugar cycle cut out as much added sugar as you can for a week, and the cravings will go away. Then you can go back on it in moderation (worked for me anyway). As Nibile said though, don't crash diet early, as you will not be able to exercise and feel crappy, then just put it all back on.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 06, 2017, 06:42:11 pm
Have you got any old fashioned non electric bathroom scales?  Use those to take weight off so you can start fingerboarding now without an excuse. Aim to be still fingerboarding in 2 months. Eg, take it super steady and don't get injured. I started with 50% bodyweight and worked up to full bodyweight hangs over a few months. Everybody talks like bodyweight hangs are a natural expectation but I just kept getting injured..

Out of interest what were you actually doing when you got injured? I.e. what kind of routine, times, grip, etc.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 06, 2017, 07:14:31 pm
Yep. Repeaters just give me tendinitis. Max hangs and Frenchies only for me.
For me, I lost 12kg after my torn rotator cuff had me laid up for almost two years. I just started a food diary (MyFitnessPal) and counted calories/watched macros. That and training three times a week. I also started running/speed marching on rough ground/hills (load bearing).
A four hour march can burn 3/4000kcal with the right climb and load. It's surprisingly easy to fit in. I'll be up at 5 tomorrow and put in 4 hrs across the moors with 25lbs before work. Though I don't need to be there until 11:30, which helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: erm, sam on September 06, 2017, 08:00:28 pm
Quote
Out of interest what were you actually doing when you got injured? I.e. what kind of routine, times, grip, etc.
With regards to fingerboard I find doing anything full beans without a good warm up and a progression in sessions very likely to damage me. That "I feel great, I'm going to hang for 15 seconds because I just read an article about max hangs, even though I've only been doing 5s repeater hangs" type thing is what typically tweaks or twangs something. It normally feels fine in the session but then gets sore next day/next session.

This is a challenge as I get very excited about things and get carried away. Over and over again. So I really am structured for FB sessions now. This is helped by people like Steve Bechtel saying you can get stronger working at 80% max, it doesn't have to be max effort all the time. Sorry Nibs for the blasphemy.
Title: Project 8a
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 06, 2017, 08:42:25 pm
  This is helped by people like Steve Bechtel saying you can get stronger working at 80% max, it doesn't have to be max effort all the time. Sorry Nibs for the blasphemy.

Unless I'm missing something from your post, that's just standard strength training. You establish or predict your 1 rm. Better to predict, than incur injury empirically testing...
Easy for upper body resistance, use the thumb rule, based on something you can manage less than 10 reps of:

1rm= resistance x 1/(1-(reps x 0.025))

So, if you could bench 80kg 5 times, to failure; then your 1 rm would be ~91.4kg.

So training would be 3sets of 3 reps @ 80% of that.

It's a continuum. You'd still have better strength gains and less hypertrophy using your I rm. up to a point. There's just a much higher risk of injury in that zone.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170906/05f8e0b05ff6bbba5c51e79d5719065e.jpg)

This is harder to apply to endurance, like max hangs etc, there you just need to keep pushing your boundaries, just not too often.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Nibile on September 06, 2017, 10:41:21 pm
This is helped by people like Steve Bechtel saying you can get stronger working at 80% max, it doesn't have to be max effort all the time. Sorry Nibs for the blasphemy.
;D
You may be surprised to know that I love max efforts but rarely train at my maximum. I use max effort on singles as a mental challenge and to measure real progress, rather than predicted ones. It's true that if you go from 5 to 8 reps at your 80% you know that your max has improved, but one thing is to know it from the numbers, another thing is to actually do it. Especially on the mental side.
On the injury side, yes, it's true that max singles are dangerous, but so are the last reps of basically everything, especially if your form breaks down and if you go with high reps in highly technical excercises (deadlifts, snatch pulls, etc). The limit is the limit, be it on a single rep or on many reps.
So, I regularly train at high percentages of my max but basically never at my absolute max.
The problem is that many people misunderstand the percentage thing, they imply that it has to feel easy. It must not! So, training at 80% is in reality 60% because they don't push hard enough to reach the 80% limit.
You're training at 80% only if you apply your full potential for the 80% load. I've rarely seen this. Most people leave a lot in the tank and so the load could well be 80% of max but the complete effort is much less.
Basically, for each percentage there's its own limit, and to train at a certain percentage you have to train at its specific limit.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Muenchener on September 07, 2017, 06:47:49 am
I also started running/speed marching on rough ground/hills (load bearing).
A four hour march can burn 3/4000kcal with the right climb and load.

I was doing a lot of that sort of thing as training for long alpine rocks routes & approaches, and stopped last Autumn because I decided to focus more on sport climbing. Promptly put on three kilos between October and Christmas, which I'm still struggling to shift.

Otoh I still think doing any *hard* cardio training must interfere with recovery for climbing specific training.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 07, 2017, 08:59:36 am
I find that lengthy cycle rides effect my core so climbing is often compromised the day after doing 3 or 4 hours on the bike. This is more so in winter when I find that a long ride is harder due to the wind being thicker.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: duncan on September 07, 2017, 11:22:28 am
The Cider Soak is probably the one, in terms of things down south...

I live on the coast in the SE and therefore miles away from any sport climbing. Portland is 3 1/2 hours away. I realise there are quite a few places in the SW (Brean, Cheddar, Ansteys, etc) that could be done in a day.

Cider Soak might be the most inspiring 8a south of the Manifold Valley but won’t Anstey's be a mission from E. Sussex (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Hastings/Babbacombe+Rd,+Torquay+TQ1/@50.9934487,-3.7543726,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m17!4m16!1m5!1m1!1s0x47df107433235113:0x6d17a64660baced7!2m2!1d0.573453!2d50.854259!1m5!1m1!1s0x486d0e327d0d1c21:0x404db10172291801!2m2!1d-3.5071355!2d50.4704934!2m2!7e2!8j1504936800!3e0)?  It's an hour further than Cheddar, Brean or Portland, roughly as far as the Peak (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Hastings/YHA+Ravenstor,+Miller's+Dale,+Buxton+SK17+8SS/@52.0471308,-2.8903555,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m17!4m16!1m5!1m1!1s0x47df107433235113:0x6d17a64660baced7!2m2!1d0.573453!2d50.854259!1m5!1m1!1s0x487a2e8c05f01635:0x44cf133620a4ee8a!2m2!1d-1.7728679!2d53.2562999!2m2!7e2!8j1504936800!3e0). Maintaining motivation for regular nine+ hour round trips will be quite an ask on top of aligning fitness, partners, conditions, and family.

Don’t discount the holiday project. Frankenjura is great for families though possibly not for soft 8as or diet. Long weekend there fairly soon to scope possiblities, do your training, another short trip in Spring to check progress, then return for a week next summer and crush!

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 07, 2017, 11:48:19 am
We’re looking at a couple of family weekend trips down there this autumn, plus doing a day there / day on Dartmoor with someone else. And then the occasional day mission.

I guess this is part of the theme of the exercise - it’s far from an ideal set of circumstances, but with some creative planning I think it’s basically viable.

Years ago I tried Anabolica at Siurana (with an extremely low degree of success it must be said) and that is definitely something I’d like to consider as a foreign project. I need to investigate the Frankenjura a bit more - I find it quite impenetrable in terms of route research - but I like your thinking.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 07, 2017, 11:50:36 am
I have done Sennen in a day from here which, though it’s not something I’d repeat regularly, wasn’t actually too bad. Following the coast with a very early start.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: seankenny on September 07, 2017, 12:30:42 pm

Don’t discount the holiday project. Frankenjura is great for families though possibly not for soft 8as or diet. Long weekend there fairly soon to scope possiblities, do your training, another short trip in Spring to check progress, then return for a week next summer and crush!

Holiday project surely depends on where its easiest to fly to out of Gatwick? Second is most reliable weather. Also, are you able to do climbing-only trips or does there need to be a family-friendly element? If that's the case, then perhaps make trips to Font a key part of your training/improving, as Font is super for non-climbers and easy for you to get to from Hastings.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: nash1 on September 07, 2017, 12:53:39 pm
Good thread this, I will be following closely.
I am of course in the same boat. 5kgs too heavy, in the grip of cycling, soon to be 45 and still aiming for 8a. Got back into training last winter and went straight to golfers elbow - that is cleared up now - so how to get training again slowly without injuries is an issue.
My route is only 15 mins from home, I should have done it in 2010, but never got me arse in gear. I was redpointing and expected success but it never happened - so all the 7c+'s are still the highpoint gradewise.

Aiming to tick it in April, but whether that is 2018 or '19 remains to be seen!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 07, 2017, 01:22:18 pm
Good thread this, I will be following closely.
I am of course in the same boat. 5kgs too heavy, in the grip of cycling, soon to be 45 and still aiming for 8a. Got back into training last winter and went straight to golfers elbow - that is cleared up now - so how to get training again slowly without injuries is an issue.
My route is only 15 mins from home, I should have done it in 2010, but never got me arse in gear. I was redpointing and expected success but it never happened - so all the 7c+'s are still the highpoint gradewise.

Aiming to tick it in April, but whether that is 2018 or '19 remains to be seen!

Look, I'm seriously selling this here, as a viable alternative to cycling in the weight loss and Cardio improvement.
Due to family commitments (No1 daughter decided to vomit in year 8 maths and is barred from school for 48hrs), I only got in a 2hr march.
Walking/running does not build large heavy thighs like cycling does. I scrambled the VDiff up to Haytor summit to finnish and climbed 384mtrs on the run.
Even Strava has me down as burning 1063kcal and it's not taking into account the 15kg pack I was carrying. I didn't need a helmet and my mode of transport cost somewhat less than a crap road bike, AND NO ONE TRIED TO CRUSH ME INTO THE TARMAC!
Plus the dog loved it.
And, I'm fit enough to turn to at work and teach GCSE PE to twenty 15 year olds all afternoon. My core is not fucked and my upper body will be fine, having done sod all, for a good strength session tomorrow AM. My legs aren't even stiff.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170907/595ea99e190c9e82fd92fd5a2cf155b3.jpg)

And all before 09:30.

Did get punched quite hard by Mrs OMM when the alarm went off at five.

I didn't know she knew those words.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 07, 2017, 03:33:20 pm
I do quite like that sort of thing, but my wife commutes so anything like this always starts at 9am post school run and so ends up swallowing most of the day.

Last time I dropped down to low 80s kg was when we had a treadmill, but the last one got destroyed when the fan fell on it. It might be the time to replace it...

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: yetix on September 07, 2017, 03:55:34 pm
Good thread this, I will be following closely.
I am of course in the same boat. 5kgs too heavy, in the grip of cycling, soon to be 45 and still aiming for 8a. Got back into training last winter and went straight to golfers elbow - that is cleared up now - so how to get training again slowly without injuries is an issue.
My route is only 15 mins from home, I should have done it in 2010, but never got me arse in gear. I was redpointing and expected success but it never happened - so all the 7c+'s are still the highpoint gradewise.

Aiming to tick it in April, but whether that is 2018 or '19 remains to be seen!

Look, I'm seriously selling this here, as a viable alternative to cycling in the weight loss and Cardio improvement.
Due to family commitments (No1 daughter decided to vomit in year 8 maths and is barred from school for 48hrs), I only got in a 2hr march.
Walking/running does not build large heavy thighs like cycling does. I scrambled the VDiff up to Haytor summit to finnish and climbed 384mtrs on the run.
Even Strava has me down as burning 1063kcal and it's not taking into account the 15kg pack I was carrying. I didn't need a helmet and my mode of transport cost somewhat less than a crap road bike, AND NO ONE TRIED TO CRUSH ME INTO THE TARMAC!
Plus the dog loved it.
And, I'm fit enough to turn to at work and teach GCSE PE to twenty 15 year olds all afternoon. My core is not fucked and my upper body will be fine, having done sod all, for a good strength session tomorrow AM. My legs aren't even stiff.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170907/595ea99e190c9e82fd92fd5a2cf155b3.jpg)

And all before 09:30.

Did get punched quite hard by Mrs OMM when the alarm went off at five.

I didn't know she knew those words.

slightly off topic but I'm to start cycling to work (3.5m each way on flat terrain) twice a day soon. Is this likely to cause significant leg muscle increases (as I rely on being light massively!) if I keep the intensity down to a low pace?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 07, 2017, 04:01:26 pm
You will end up with thighs like Sir Chris Hoy on that mileage.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: yetix on September 07, 2017, 04:26:34 pm
thought so, better get a mobility scooter instead.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 07, 2017, 04:34:52 pm
Then you might end up an arse the size of a small planet.
A professional cyclist will have highly defined thighs but there not always big in size. The ones with huge thighs are often track sprinters who spend hours squatting heavy weights.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Oldmanmatt on September 07, 2017, 04:38:25 pm
Then you might end up an arse the size of a small planet.
A professional cyclist will have highly defined thighs but there not always big in size. The ones with huge thighs are often track sprinters who spend hours squatting heavy weights.

Nah, get the scooter and push it to work...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 07, 2017, 08:19:39 pm
stay in first gear
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: webbo on September 07, 2017, 09:51:33 pm
stay in first gear
I presume you mean like as in the car as no one on the bike refers to first gear.
You would say I was in 34 x 28 or 53 x 11
Call yourself a climber pah
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 07, 2017, 11:34:34 pm
stay in first gear
I presume you mean like as in the car as no one on the bike refers to first gear.
You would say I was in 34 x 28 or 53 x 11
Call yourself a climber pah

what's a "bike"?

sounds kind of camp
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: jwi on September 08, 2017, 10:08:21 am
I have nothing useful to add except that focusing on big goals can backfire. As others have already said, figure out the steps that you need to achieve in order to be able to climb a (selected) 8a. Make sure that each step can be achieved by doing things within your control. Then “forget” about the big goal and focus on each step. (Science (https://ylmsportscience.com/2016/08/10/highperformance-big-goals-can-backfire-focus-on-the-process-instead-by-ylmsportscience/?platform=hootsuite))

In my opinion (backed up by a reasonable data-set). Physically you need this to do 7c in a day (<5 goes):

Strength:
1. You should be able to do all the moves on a sustained six move boulder @ 7a-7b within two sessions
2. You should be able to boulder 6c-7a regardless of length (3 to 8 moves)

Strength endurance:
3. Climb three consecutive boulder problems ~6b with ≤10 s rest between them. Repeat 6 times with 6 min rest.

Threshold:
4. Climb a 30 move 7a-7b 8 times in a row with 6 min rest between them.

Endurance:
5. You should be able to do a 30 move sustained route of grade 6c-7a ten times with one minute rest between the goes. (A single fall on each of the two last laps is OK)

If your are on the strong side (can do 7a boulder of all lengths) it's ok to have less good endurance (ten laps on 6c), and vice versa. Select route accordingly.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 08, 2017, 11:15:55 am
I have nothing useful to add except that focusing on big goals can backfire. As others have already said, figure out the steps that you need to achieve in order to be able to climb a (selected) 8a. Make sure that each step can be achieved by doing things within your control. Then “forget” about the big goal and focus on each step. (Science (https://ylmsportscience.com/2016/08/10/highperformance-big-goals-can-backfire-focus-on-the-process-instead-by-ylmsportscience/?platform=hootsuite))

In my opinion (backed up by a reasonable data-set). Physically you need this to do 7c in a day (<5 goes):

Strength:
1. You should be able to do all the moves on a sustained six move boulder @ 7a-7b within two sessions
2. You should be able to boulder 6c-7a regardless of length (3 to 8 moves)

Strength endurance:
3. Climb three consecutive boulder problems ~6b with ≤10 s rest between them. Repeat 6 times with 6 min rest.

Threshold:
4. Climb a 30 move 7a-7b 8 times in a row with 6 min rest between them.

Endurance:
5. You should be able to do a 30 move sustained route of grade 6c-7a ten times with one minute rest between the goes. (A single fall on each of the two last laps is OK)

If your are on the strong side (can do 7a boulder of all lengths) it's ok to have less good endurance (ten laps on 6c), and vice versa. Select route accordingly.

Thanks for this. This is actually the sort of stuff I’ve been trying to figure out, and I’ve been struggling to find anything as clearly laid out as what you’ve done here.

Going back to my original post, my thinking is to concentrate on bouldering / finger strength initially, as that’s the thing that’s going to take longest to (safely) improve to a sufficient level.

I’ll keep an element of threshold / aero in the mix, but fitted in around the strength stuff.

I’m already being more strategic at the wall in terms of spending more time on problems that clearly have similarities with the sort of routes I’m aiming for, and then worrying about the more random stuff afterwards.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 08, 2017, 07:55:50 pm
Personally, I prefer the idea of quick ascents on holiday. Depending on who I'd be with, I think 5 redpoints would probably be my max. I think, with limited opportunities for this sort of thing, aiming for a variety of easier ticks is going to do me more good in the long term than hammering one thing.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Rocksteady on September 11, 2017, 01:52:58 pm
My dad projected an 8a aged 63. His approach was to choose a project local to where he lived (Dorset) and try it often over a number of months (probably approaching a year). To be fair, he actually probably did it in about 5 sessions once he worked out the right beta.

After each session he'd go away and work mainly on strength on his board. He made quite good progress just locking static holds with one hand and feet on, in positions similar to those he encountered on the route. He'd do 3 sets of 3 holding as long as he could. Seem to remember it was a fierce crimp, a weird sidepull and an undercut he worked.

He tried a few holiday 8as but went away empty handed as just never quite had the fitness. He figured it was easier to get strong and go bouldery as at his age it was hard for him to tolerate the volume required to get 8a endurance.


I am slightly dismayed by jwi's stats for climbing 7c in <5 goes. I was hoping to build up my volume of 7cs over next year or so but don't think I can do any of those feats. Maybe 3 if I had the boulder dialled. Must train harder!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: kelvin on September 11, 2017, 02:53:15 pm



I am slightly dismayed by jwi's stats for climbing 7c in <5 goes. I was hoping to build up my volume of 7cs over next year or so but don't think I can do any of those feats. Maybe 3 if I had the boulder dialled. Must train harder!

I was a bit puzzled by jwi's comments too - my mate Max had onsighted 4 x 8a and climbed 8b but was utterly lost on 7A when he came to Albarracin with myself and AJM. He was onsighting 7c for his warmups.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Andy W on September 11, 2017, 04:22:02 pm
I think there are so many variables, attempts at 'science' are problematic.

My advice would be choose a project that suits your strength and is local. I made a similar target for 8a before I was 50. I lived in Cornwall, deepest Penwith so I was a bit up against it on the local front. I chose Cider Soak because its good, but after a session on that realised seeping was an issue, so on a wet day wandered up to the wave at Cheddar and was shown a short and shit route, 'Crystal something or other', so switched my attention. It took me four sessions. I was bouldering up to high 7's and lacked endurance. History of sport climbing in the preceding ten years was a 7a and easy bolted multi pitch holiday.

So strengths in bouldering suited bouldery sport, the route was accessible and didn't seep. I think another factor was motivation, the target really helped, the approaching birthday made the pressure real. I also trained specifically, did 4x4's and had a similar length power endurance circuit that I projected on my board.

Good luck!!!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: jwi on September 11, 2017, 05:27:14 pm

I was a bit puzzled by jwi's comments too - my mate Max had onsighted 4 x 8a and climbed 8b but was utterly lost on 7A when he came to Albarracin with myself and AJM. He was onsighting 7c for his warmups.

I take it he didn't onsight many of the 7c-routes that start with a 7a boulder, then an easy romp to the top then?

(But of course you have not to be able to do it all at the same time. Two weeks ago I could do all three 8as I tried within five goes, last week I couldn't do 6b in the gym... the style is too different, it takes two weeks for my bouldering level is starting to approach normal again. That has almost nothing to do with strength.)
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 11, 2017, 09:58:04 pm
Some great tales of quests for the eighth grade - really interesting reading them.

Obviously there’s loads of variability in terms of what’s required for different routes, but I rather like jwi’s approach - especially in terms of having some additional intermediate goals.

Inspired by Dan’s film, I got the Dorset Bouldering guide today, and am going to try to make time for some days away. I figured that, if I can start to crack limestone bouldering 7s before too long, I’ll be moving in the right direction. I’ve never bouldered on Portland before, but it does look pretty good, and sounds like there’s lots of stuff that will work throughout the winter.

Also managed to get a bit nearer to the first weight goal (i.e. under 90kg) without any cardio. When / if the weather improves down here I’ll add some running and cycling in and should be back to 80something for the first time in 5 years...

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 11, 2017, 10:28:47 pm
Also, if the bouldering goes ok then Breathing Method on Portland might be another option, although I doubt I’d be quite as satisfied with a mid-route boulder problem as something more sustained. But it does look like quite a cool bit of climbing nonetheless...

If the harder Portland routes favour the tall then perhaps I should consider some others also.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 11, 2017, 10:42:16 pm
I chose Cider Soak because its good, but after a session on that realised seeping was an issue, so on a wet day wandered up to the wave at Cheddar and was shown a short and shit route, 'Crystal something or other', so switched my attention.

I'm pretty keen to climb my first 8a before too long, but did you really get that sense of satisfaction from climbing something so bad you don't even remember the name? (Liquid Crystal I think). I'd love to climb Cider Soak because it's awesome, not just because it's 8a. One move currently shutting me down though.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 11, 2017, 10:46:28 pm
Also, if the bouldering goes ok then Breathing Method on Portland might be another option, although I doubt I’d be quite as satisfied with a mid-route boulder problem as something more sustained. But it does look like quite a cool bit of climbing nonetheless...

If the harder Portland routes favour the tall then perhaps I should consider some others also.

From what I understand Breathing Method is really hard for 8a, might be your first soft 8a+ even! I'm exclusively bouldering until a font trip in October and then I'm going to be projecting the hell out of Fighting Torque. I've been on it once and it's awesome. Good enough to do even if it turns out to be 7c+. Consensus is good enough for me though!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 11, 2017, 10:50:19 pm
Interesting - I will investigate FT!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 11, 2017, 11:19:03 pm
It's certainly worth a look!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: AJM on September 12, 2017, 06:51:08 am
It's certainly worth a look!

If I can get the time away from the little one, I may see you there...

It definitely seems a different kettle of fish from Breathing Method, whose bouldering grade seems to go up the more people I talk to!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Andy W on September 12, 2017, 08:27:13 am
I chose Cider Soak because its good, but after a session on that realised seeping was an issue, so on a wet day wandered up to the wave at Cheddar and was shown a short and shit route, 'Crystal something or other', so switched my attention.

I'm pretty keen to climb my first 8a before too long, but did you really get that sense of satisfaction from climbing something so bad you don't even remember the name? (Liquid Crystal I think). I'd love to climb Cider Soak because it's awesome, not just because it's 8a. One move currently shutting me down though.



I got satisfaction from hitting my goal, but yes it would have been much sweeter with Cider Soak, but it seeped, I only had five weeks window of opportunity and I wanted the tick!  ;)
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Duma on September 12, 2017, 08:39:25 am
The boulder problem on BM is nails. If you're at the cuttings Fighting Torque would probably be a better bet (was my first 8a).

At Cheddar something like Lion Sleeps Tonight would be a lot better and more memorable than anything on the wave.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: andy popp on September 12, 2017, 10:13:50 am
My dad projected an 8a aged 63. His approach was to choose a project local to where he lived (Dorset) and try it often over a number of months (probably approaching a year). To be fair, he actually probably did it in about 5 sessions once he worked out the right beta.

After each session he'd go away and work mainly on strength on his board. He made quite good progress just locking static holds with one hand and feet on, in positions similar to those he encountered on the route. He'd do 3 sets of 3 holding as long as he could. Seem to remember it was a fierce crimp, a weird sidepull and an undercut he worked.

He tried a few holiday 8as but went away empty handed as just never quite had the fitness. He figured it was easier to get strong and go bouldery as at his age it was hard for him to tolerate the volume required to get 8a endurance.


I am slightly dismayed by jwi's stats for climbing 7c in <5 goes. I was hoping to build up my volume of 7cs over next year or so but don't think I can do any of those feats. Maybe 3 if I had the boulder dialled. Must train harder!

I wish I could give your dad a wad point!!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Palomides on September 12, 2017, 03:59:49 pm
That is well inspiring. In fact this whole thread is very inspiring, and extremely well timed for me..

Today I need to decide whether to renew my ffme licence or kick it in and go ride bikes this year. It's been a pretty poor climbing year - I think I fell off the Power Club wagon pretty quickly. But lots of the stuff above really resonates with me.

So here we go again... overall year plan:

Short Term : Sept to Jan - get strong, get bendy, maintain weight
Lots of bouldering, mixed limit sessions and more endurance based sessions at local walls. Fingerboard at least once a week.
Any rare outdoor climbing will be dependant on conditions - doing a few routes to stay used to outdoor footwork, checking out potential projects for later.
Stretching - I feel really stiff all over at the moment, still don't have full knee movement after operation last Feb (but no pain)
Weight - keep cycling to work, run once a week, but try not to get distracted by biking.. if I eat sensibly this should keep me around 72kg
Potential showstopper - possible arthritic fingers.. need to seriously evaluate performace on small holds. If I can't get back some crimp strength then it's game over for hard outdoor climbing and I'll just go biking (and buy a new bike, obviously).

Short Term Goal - regional Bouldering champs around Feb. Not be last, feel strong.

Medium Term : Feb to April - get fit
More route climbing, more endurance/stamina sessions. Keep up fingerboarding
Outdoor climbing as above, with more time on potential 7c/8a projects. Can't see myseklf being motivated for 7c+ for simple grade snobbery and limited outdoor time!
Be more careful with diet and maintain cycling to drop a couple of kgs.

Medium Term Goals - feel fit AND strong

April/May/June - projects. Should have found a route to do. Get it done.



Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: GazM on September 12, 2017, 05:47:33 pm
I wholeheartedly support the specific local project approach.

I've done a similar thing a couple of times, setting myself the goal of my first 7b+ before my wedding and then 7c before our baby is due.  I found local routes that I could try often and chip away at and train specifically for on my board, and both got done much quicker than expected.

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: ghisino on September 28, 2017, 02:06:28 pm
interesting topic.

one approach would be to build a ticklist of intermediate projects in the same style as the 8a's you dream of.

it seems that short routes are your thing (you were mentioning l'olla) so i can mention a few destinations/sub sectors in France.
north to south:

Les Andelys (near Rouen). a few worthwhile routes in the 7's and 8's. the good crags are named bisexto and thuit. not a killer venue in itself but possibly a good intermediate stop.

La guignoterie (poitiers). pocketed 20m heaven, loads of fine 7's, good for a day heading to Tarn.

Tarn: focus on gullich and oasif sectors. barbitturique is a pupular burly 10 move 8a on 2 finger pockets, 45deg.

saussois: good intermediate stop heading south east. do not consider routes below 6b, too polished. brilliant 7s, especially chimpanzodrome (15 move 7c+)

st léger: a few good short and pinchy 8as in the begginning of face sud.

buoux: reve de papillon is an obvious short 8a, not that bouldery or fingery, possibly easier for the tall, not sandbagged. expect to get spanked on many easier routes though.


in spain, i would highly consider margalef for a grade quest. apart from grade softness consideration, the routes are really straightforward and do not require loads of experience at the grade in order to redpoint them quickly... siurana is quite the opposite, quick redpoint nightmare imho.


Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: hstmoore on September 29, 2017, 11:26:01 am
Great thread, lots of good advice in times for winter training. As I start my training this year I'm struggling to find a concrete goal to give myself something to aim towards so I'm going to give myself a fairly arbitrary but fun-looking one: Powerplant at the Cornice.

I've never been on Powerplant, only seen people climb it. There are plenty of UKB threads with beta but what I'd really like to know is how the route climbs and therefore what I should focus on training: Power endurance? Finger strength? Dynamic movement? etc. If anyone has any advice that would be much appreciated. Cheers!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on September 29, 2017, 12:33:19 pm
Great thread, lots of good advice in times for winter training. As I start my training this year I'm struggling to find a concrete goal to give myself something to aim towards so I'm going to give myself a fairly arbitrary but fun-looking one: Powerplant at the Cornice.

I've never been on Powerplant, only seen people climb it. There are plenty of UKB threads with beta but what I'd really like to know is how the route climbs and therefore what I should focus on training: Power endurance? Finger strength? Dynamic movement? etc. If anyone has any advice that would be much appreciated. Cheers!

Re: Powerplant - It climbs really well in my opinion and the top wall, in particular, has a bunch of really interesting holds. It took me ages to get through the knee bar section as for my height you have to keep a shed load of tension to reach the holds and be able to take your knee out. In terms of finger strength, I dunno, I was bouldering around f7a at that point and it didn't require anywhere near that, the smallest holds are a pair of slick one pad crimps you have to hold while moving your feet around for the kneebar. There are a fair few dynamic moves at the start with a big move up left to a sharp sidepull jug and also a butch move up to the aforementioned crimps. I'd train power endurance with big moves on relatively good holds, it's around 20-25 moves, stick a big chunky undercut to match around halfway. The caveat to all this is that I don't know much about training and the route took me ages, I guess I just got fit on it which is the best training there is. Message me for any beta when the time comes, it's etched into my brain.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: nai on September 29, 2017, 05:48:37 pm
I guess I just got fit on it which is the best training there is.

took me ages

 :???:

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on September 29, 2017, 05:58:44 pm
smart arse
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: nash1 on November 01, 2017, 10:47:41 am
I was dangling on my chosen 8a the other day on a grigri/traxion. It is soooo possible, all the moves are there. Main problem was skin and shoe pain, but that will improve by doing a bit more all round climbing. Now, how to get the endurance for the route with not enough time on my hands will need discipline...
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: stone on November 01, 2017, 03:30:29 pm
There is a certain amount of leeway between individuals' ability to climb a given grade quickly and to climb a (harder) grade eventually. Some people are great at being able to summon that decisive "get the job done" attitude needed for quick ascents. I'd love to be better at that. I've long had a half-arsed aspiration to do a 7b+ in a day but have never managed it. But I have done a few 8a+ after extensive sieging. So if you want to climb a route, enjoy dangling on it, but can't do the various precondition feats people suggest and don't envisage getting the training you need, perhaps just siege it out :) . But I would say for myself it helps to mix it up with getting on other stuff too (eg bouldering and easier routes).
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 01, 2017, 04:45:56 pm
That's quite a decrepancy, I'd admire your seige commitment! I've done a couple of 7c in a day, one second go, but never climbed a harder grade. Definitely feel that is is an underperformance. Hopefully will put this right soon, I've spent a few months bouldering for a Font trip, and now that I'm back plan on getting on Fighting Torque as exclusively as I can over winter. Feel it's a good choice due to the short lived nature of the spicy bit. Should suit a transition from bouldering back to sport.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: stone on November 01, 2017, 05:15:58 pm
I just (belately) looked at the start of this thread and saw that Yossarian is based on the South East coast. Might Adrenachrome at Lulworth be a suitable target but with Fighting Torque at The Cuttings (as monkoffunk just mentioned) as a stormy seas bail-to alternative. Years ago I had a great midwinter day climbing with ropes at Lulworth Stairhole cave.   
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on November 01, 2017, 05:25:35 pm
I just (belately) looked at the start of this thread and saw that Yossarian is based on the South East coast. Might Adrenachrome at Lulworth be a suitable target but with Fighting Torque at The Cuttings (as monkoffunk just mentioned) as a stormy seas bail-to alternative. Years ago I had a great midwinter day climbing with ropes at Lulworth Stairhole cave.

How did you get back in from lowering off Adrenachrome?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2017, 05:58:26 pm
Swim.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: remus on November 01, 2017, 06:13:56 pm
I just (belately) looked at the start of this thread and saw that Yossarian is based on the South East coast. Might Adrenachrome at Lulworth be a suitable target but with Fighting Torque at The Cuttings (as monkoffunk just mentioned) as a stormy seas bail-to alternative. Years ago I had a great midwinter day climbing with ropes at Lulworth Stairhole cave.

Might just be because I've been trying it soup up, but Adrenochrome feels very meaty to me. Potentially tricky to get in condition too (lots of sea smeg). Fighting torqu on the other hand is a much more reasonable proposition!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: stone on November 01, 2017, 06:58:49 pm
I just (belately) looked at the start of this thread and saw that Yossarian is based on the South East coast. Might Adrenachrome at Lulworth be a suitable target but with Fighting Torque at The Cuttings (as monkoffunk just mentioned) as a stormy seas bail-to alternative. Years ago I had a great midwinter day climbing with ropes at Lulworth Stairhole cave.

Might just be because I've been trying it soup up, but Adrenochrome feels very meaty to me. Potentially tricky to get in condition too (lots of sea smeg). Fighting torqu on the other hand is a much more reasonable proposition!
I didn't get on Adrenachrome, I just did Lulworth Arms Treaty and 7b was my limit back then. But as a midwinter roped climbing venue, Stairhole Cave seemed great. The winter sun shines straight into the cave (the summer sun is too high in the sky to shine in). Apparently that makes smeg much less of an issue in winter than in summer (I suppose it's the rock-warmer-than-the-air-so-no-condensation phenomenon). On that day I was there, conditions were great and the local (Pete Oxley no less!) I was with gave the impression that that was to be expected in winter.
I also had great tuition about getting the gear out and rope down keeping everything dry. Pete climbed Mark of the Beast that day and also kept his rope dry and he'd climbed Adrenachrome with ropes before the DWS era.  I have to confess that, 15years later, I've forgotten what that stripping method was :) but I remember that it was quick and easy -could it just have been stripping as you would on dry land but then whipping the rope in so momentum takes it to the ledge when you pull it? I've been doing that to cope with quagmire mud in the Peak :)
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 01, 2017, 07:07:07 pm
Adrenochrome roped would be quite a faff for a first 8a and tough as a solo. Bit of a pain driving to Portland too as a bail out.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: nai on November 01, 2017, 07:18:02 pm
I just did Lulworth Arms Treaty and 7b was my limit back then.

In a day?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: stone on November 02, 2017, 11:29:59 am
I just did Lulworth Arms Treaty and 7b was my limit back then.

In a day?
Yes that was before I turned-to-the-dark-side/ saw-the-light with regards to sieging and my best in-a-day red point grade (7b) was also my best overall red point grade. Since then, I've failed to improve on the in-a-day grade. My onsighting "progress" has been even worse -my only ever 7a+ onsight was the first 7a+ I managed by any means. I guess it is partly because Dorset used to be my closest climbing and I used to often have days attempting 6a to 7a onsighting. Since moving near to the Peak I instead dangle from 7b+ to 8a+ routes (because the better sport routes here are mostly trickier). It's all fresh air and exercise though.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: AJM on November 02, 2017, 12:38:45 pm
I just (belately) looked at the start of this thread and saw that Yossarian is based on the South East coast. Might Adrenachrome at Lulworth be a suitable target but with Fighting Torque at The Cuttings (as monkoffunk just mentioned) as a stormy seas bail-to alternative. Years ago I had a great midwinter day climbing with ropes at Lulworth Stairhole cave.

Might just be because I've been trying it soup up, but Adrenochrome feels very meaty to me. Potentially tricky to get in condition too (lots of sea smeg). Fighting torqu on the other hand is a much more reasonable proposition!

I've also been told that October and onwards is best for conditions at Lulworth because of the lower sun angle. Not that it's relevant for this but apparently Blackers can be good over winter as well, I assume partly for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Mark Lloyd on November 02, 2017, 12:53:13 pm
You would have flashed Marshall Music too if someone had given you enough quick draws, oops
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 07, 2017, 09:53:19 am
Had a few goes on Fighting Torque yesterday. All but one of the moves done and a couple of clips to sort out but certainly all felt possible! Don't want to jinx it but should go this winter if get down there enough!
(If anyone else tries it, the massive tick marks aren't mine...)
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on December 18, 2017, 05:04:14 pm
Thanks to various complications over the past few months, I’ve not managed to move forwards with all this. I seem to have become my own worst enemy as far as maintaining any consistency. It’s fine when things in general are going well, but as soon as there are deadlines and / or stress / anxiety levels mount, I end up cutting out training. And putting weight back on.

I’m not entirely sure what to do in the short term. Without any obvious opportunities for trips abroad or protracted sieges, I’m thinking perhaps the best thing is to accept that training indoors can be an end in itself until I figure out a better plan.

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: erm, sam on December 18, 2017, 05:28:03 pm
Just keep fingerboarding.

You can fit this in even when busy and it makes the most difference over eg a year. Make sure the fingerboard is in the house, get a standarised warmup and keep doing it. 1x week when busy, 2x when you have time.

Over a while of doing nothing else, this will make a definate positive difference..
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: SA Chris on December 18, 2017, 06:08:01 pm
This. When the stress stacks up is when i really need a weekly session down the wall, even if it means leaving the office at 8 and only getting an hour and a half in.

Am i alone in actually losing weight when stressed? I usually don't feel hungry and so eat less, often breakfast and have time for a minimal lunch.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Sasquatch on December 18, 2017, 06:16:01 pm
Just keep fingerboarding.

You can fit this in even when busy and it makes the most difference over eg a year. Make sure the fingerboard is in the house, get a standarised warmup and keep doing it. 1x week when busy, 2x when you have time.

Over a while of doing nothing else, this will make a definate positive difference..
Agreed!

and if you're not getting other exercise, a bit of body weight conditioning goes a LONG way to maintaining str so you don't have to start over. 
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on December 19, 2017, 08:47:05 am
Just keep fingerboarding.

You can fit this in even when busy and it makes the most difference over eg a year. Make sure the fingerboard is in the house, get a standarised warmup and keep doing it. 1x week when busy, 2x when you have time.

Over a while of doing nothing else, this will make a definate positive difference..

That’s a decent plan. It’s currently in the garage which was earmarked for conversion into training facility but has just been filled with the contents of my unit (a massive pain in the arse in itself), so separating the two would be quite a positive thing.

And daughter wants a pull-up bar, so both could end up in the house upstairs in adjoining doorways.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on December 20, 2017, 02:08:46 pm
This. When the stress stacks up is when i really need a weekly session down the wall, even if it means leaving the office at 8 and only getting an hour and a half in.

Am i alone in actually losing weight when stressed? I usually don't feel hungry and so eat less, often breakfast and have time for a minimal lunch.

Apologies Chris - I didn’t reply.

My wife commutes Mon-Thurs so I deal with the kids midweek evenings. Which is why I was hoping to get a board built to make home training more interesting, but that’s not going to happen for a while now.

Daughter has class at the wall Sat mornings and I usually get 2-3 hours done then. One other wall sesh midweek and some fingerboarding really is achievable so I should stop complaining.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on July 13, 2018, 07:34:03 pm
Resurrecting this because, though I’m still miles off 8a at the moment, the psyche is still there and I’m actually getting out on some sport (albeit mid 6s currently) rather than just looking at pictures of it.

I turned up at a deserted Stair Hole a few weeks back and terrified myself failing to climb Horny Lil Devil, and Adrenocrome looked like a million miles away in terms of doability. I pretty much gave up on that idea, although in retrospect, if there had been people leaping off right left and centre I might have tried a bit harder.

I thought I might be able to set up a toprope / shunt at the Cuttings (based on studying the photos) but after a lot of faff and effort I realised that wasn’t going to be a very sensible idea.

My current thinking is to try to concentrate on getting some sport mileage, rather than trying to introduce anything too hard for the time being. Especially as I’m leading like a very nervous punter at the moment. And then target some harder stuff on specific project days.

Figuring out some locations with shunt-able sport routes in the south / SW is probably going to help, as escaping for midweek days is easier than locating slacker belayers.

Having studied various videos of stuff at Ansteys vs Portland, I think the former suits me quite a lot better.

Has anyone else made progress on their sport ambitions?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: thekettle on July 13, 2018, 08:28:20 pm
If it's any help for psyche, I've just done my first 8a last week, and 18 months ago my best was 7a.
To put it in context I came into it after 8 years of bouldering/child-rearing (preceded by another 15 years of tradding), so had a surplus of strength but pitiful endurance. Built an 8ft garage wall, used it twice weekly to get fit, and focused on climbing my anti-style (long enduro routes with high cruxes) in the 7's for the first year. Found a short bouldery 8a last week and it went in 5 tries :-)
Now resuming work on my weaknesses on classic 7s. For me the deal breaker was showing up to train, even if just for an hour at 9pm, week after week. Some changes in my diet also hugely improved recovery and resilience of my knackered shoulders and elbows, allowing for more volume.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Catcheemonkey on July 14, 2018, 05:46:15 pm
John - what changes did you make to your diet, that helped improve recovery?

I’m trying to increase my training volume at the moment, but am feeling absolutely battered.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: thekettle on July 14, 2018, 09:54:02 pm
Did a dietary assessment with Rebecca Dent. As a result Iincreased the antioxidants in my diet (more berries and dark leafy greens), doubled my protein intake to 2g/kg BW, and started on creatine.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Catcheemonkey on July 15, 2018, 07:37:28 am
Thanks.

I’m starting to think I’m the only person in the country not taking Creatine.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on July 15, 2018, 08:30:32 am
Thanks.

I’m starting to think I’m the only person in the country not taking Creatine.

I’m on the Crea-mtea diet, going well.

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: duncan on July 15, 2018, 10:43:59 am
I’m on the Crea-mtea diet, going well.

Devon version for me.  Project 6a.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: tomtom on July 15, 2018, 02:00:51 pm
John - what changes did you make to your diet, that helped improve recovery?

I’m trying to increase my training volume at the moment, but am feeling absolutely battered.

Whenever I’ve upped volume or intensity - I’ve always felt done in for a few weeks as I adjust to a different level/regimen(that makes it sound far more deliberate than it actually is!!)

But it’s really hard with work/family going on all the time to not feel battered generally anyway!!

BTW Baby carrier still going strong thanks!!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Catcheemonkey on July 15, 2018, 10:38:31 pm
You’re right, daily life is certainly a primary contributor to that battered feeling, but creaking elbows are definitely in the mix.

Glad the carrier is going well - I bet you’ve improved fitness hauling Tom Jnr around!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on July 16, 2018, 05:26:41 pm
John - what changes did you make to your diet, that helped improve recovery?

I’m trying to increase my training volume at the moment, but am feeling absolutely battered.

I was also going to say, it sounds like Cream-tea-time .. or kicking back with a beer and some good old fashioned fish and chips  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Catcheemonkey on July 17, 2018, 08:03:07 am
Thanks for the tip. Think I’m going to double down on the cream-teas, then introduce a block of fish and chip repeaters.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on July 17, 2018, 08:48:27 am
If it's any help for psyche, I've just done my first 8a last week, and 18 months ago my best was 7a.
To put it in context I came into it after 8 years of bouldering/child-rearing (preceded by another 15 years of tradding), so had a surplus of strength but pitiful endurance. Built an 8ft garage wall, used it twice weekly to get fit, and focused on climbing my anti-style (long enduro routes with high cruxes) in the 7's for the first year. Found a short bouldery 8a last week and it went in 5 tries :-)
Now resuming work on my weaknesses on classic 7s. For me the deal breaker was showing up to train, even if just for an hour at 9pm, week after week. Some changes in my diet also hugely improved recovery and resilience of my knackered shoulders and elbows, allowing for more volume.

That’s really interesting - thanks.

I’m currently looking at it as a longer term project than I possibly previously envisaged. Portland has emerged / been confirmed as the most efficient venue to visit regularly but, similarly to you, the predominant style is not the one that I generally excel at. But rather than focus too early on target projects further away, I’ve come round to the idea of working through the grades there, and considering sporadic visits to more distant venues to see if I can push my grade a bit further.

I’ve finally got my weight down into the 80s, and reckon that 80/82kg is quite acheiveable, rather than the 85 that I had originally set as a goal. Even without any other improvements I think that should move things on quite significantly.

The current dilemma is exercising discipline in terms of full sessions of endurance training, rather than just tacking it on the end of other stuff. The weather hasn’t been terribly helpful in that regard, but I suppose it’s not going to last forever...

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Danny on July 17, 2018, 11:09:22 am
Quote
The current dilemma is exercising discipline in terms of full sessions of endurance training, rather than just tacking it on the end of other stuff. The weather hasn’t been terribly helpful in that regard, but I suppose it’s not going to last forever...

Fucking sunshine. How are we supposed to get stronger when the weather is so good?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on July 17, 2018, 11:38:50 am
Thanks for the tip. Think I’m going to double down on the cream-teas, then introduce a block of fish and chip repeaters.

Without wanting to hijack the thread - and I think I can put this in the context of Yossarian's last post too - my post was really entirely serious.

It sounded as though what was needed was good quality recovery! That can be the hardest thing to prioritise, particularly when you've been able to make apparent performance gains.

It's still important to make increases in volume target focused.

In the context of "working up through the grades" - important to not let the next grade become the target. Instead, think about how you want to feel at a given grade in order to make the longer term goal feasible. There are some excellent posts earlier in the thread, to that effect.

Focusing just on increasing volume could mean that you become too trashed to allow climbing/training at the right intensity level.

 :popcorn:  :icon_beerchug:
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on July 17, 2018, 11:47:59 am
Quote
Fucking sunshine. How are we supposed to get stronger when the weather is so good?

What I say is you can’t beat drizzle, and smog, and mist...
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Yossarian on September 09, 2018, 04:57:14 pm
Seeing as this thread is now a year old...

Thinking of a trip to Portland in the next fortnight to check out Fighting Torque.

Monkoffunk - did you get this ticked? Do you (or any other southern operators - Duma, etc) have any beta you could share? Obvs there are a couple of vids, but anything you could share would be gratefully received!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: AJM on September 09, 2018, 08:02:19 pm
Seeing as this thread is now a year old...

Thinking of a trip to Portland in the next fortnight to check out Fighting Torque.

Monkoffunk - did you get this ticked? Do you (or any other southern operators - Duma, etc) have any beta you could share? Obvs there are a couple of vids, but anything you could share would be gratefully received!

Easy to start to the arete. Then left hand to a pocket, right on a small sidepull, slap up the arete with the left and balance across to the flowstone undercuts.

Then there are a variety of ways. I got beta for going out left. Right hand up to a rat crimp in the groove. Then feet up a bit, toehook round the left arete and pull across to a pocket just round the left arete. Then feet come across, right foot outside edge on a little edge on the arete, slap up the flowstone to an intermediate and then to the flowstone boss. There's a flat thing on the bulge and a sidepull for the right and go up to better holds under the bulge. I forget exactly what happens to the feet for this section, sorry.

Easier above.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 10, 2018, 12:48:39 pm
I haven’t got it yet and haven’t been on it regularly enough to make consistent progress. Mostly been bouldering or with partners who don’t want to go to cuttings!

I can’t quite remember the details of my beta, I go out right though up the groove.

Similar start, easy up to the arete, moves to the undercuts are reasonably straightforward. Then I think I do something a bit different with a stretched out move with a low right foot. I think I gaston the flowstone shield thing right hand and then reach over to the good crimps on top of it with left. All quite stretched out but using the best feet. That bit is a bit hazy though. Next bit is the crux for me, high horrible left foot in the groove, rock over to a gaston thumb catch type thing which seems very improbable and stand up reaching left to easier ground.

I should have written it down I’m not sure if that’s exactly right but it’s close to what I do I think.

Need to get back on it and refresh my memory!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Rocksteady on September 11, 2018, 01:37:06 pm
What did you guys do re: clipping for the crux section of Fighting Torque? Most people I know who've done it skipped the clip but this is a bit scary. Any decent clipping beta?

Yossarian - Fighting Torque is also a longish term project for me. I've been trying to work my way through the grades at the Cuttings, and have actually come to really enjoy the style of climbing there. A ticklist that might help work your way into it:

Holy Hand Grenade - 7a, very fun
Live by the Sword - 7a+ or Mindmeld (soft/bouldery 7a+)
I am reliably told that Want Out is amazing at 7b, though when I tried it years ago it stumped me. Dumbfounded is OK at 7b, soft if you're 6ft or over.
For 7b+ lots of people do Sign of the Vulcan but I think this is at least V6 boulder and very disjointed. For me Infernal Din is a fantastic route and since hold breakage closer to 7c. I've tried this lots of times but not ticked it yet, hopefully this year. It's escapable but taken directly it has really fantastic moves.
Nightmare Scenario - 7c, I did this in 2016 and really enjoyed it. My first 7c so suspect it's soft. Hall of Mirrors is next on my list.

After that I'd be inclined to skip 7c+ as although The Mind Terrorist looks amazing it looks really weird and hard. Fighting Torque seems more accessible.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on September 11, 2018, 03:01:19 pm
Skip the clip I think.

Want out is excellent. Really interesting sequence. The crux has some really powerful obvious beta, or some really unpowerful unobvious beta which unlocked it for me when I figured it out. Hall of Mirrors defo a good one for the list.

7c+ an odd grade there, have heard some say that Hurricaine on a Millpond is more like 8a+, but I wouldn't know!

If anyone wants a partner for Fighting Torque let me know!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: remus on September 11, 2018, 03:06:40 pm
What did you guys do re: clipping for the crux section of Fighting Torque? Most people I know who've done it skipped the clip but this is a bit scary. Any decent clipping beta?

Not much help as I also skipped the clip, but I caught a mate who fell off above the skipped clip and it's definitely in the 'big but safe fall' category.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Duma on September 13, 2018, 07:17:47 pm
Can't remember re the clip, or tbh much of anything - tho in my defence it was 15 years ago! Monk of funk's beta sounds vaguely familiar, but that's all I can offer...
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: iain on September 13, 2018, 09:11:30 pm
There is, or was, a hard to see but good flake/pinch up and right of the bolt that you can use to clip around your waist. It also took the sting out of the last bit of the crux for me.
(I went to the flake/pinch with the right from the left hand gaston/thumb thing monkoffunk talks about)

Or at least that was plan until a friend who was working it left some long slings which got in the way and I couldn't clip it anyway. (thanks Nick ;) )

I can vaguely remember my beta up the groove from the undercuts, similar to monk but more moves. Something's broken off there I think though but no idea how it might change things.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 20, 2018, 10:25:34 pm
Hey all...
Some slightly unfortunate news. Today I was trying Fighting Torque up the groove.
My beta at the top of the difficult bit is: from the two crimps top of the flow stone shield thing, high left foot in groove, rock over to a thin gaston left hand and then good high right foot on flow stone shield, and over with right hand to good side pull right before you are on easy ground. As I was doing this (rolling over to the side pull) the gaston hold broke, basically a large sheet of rock came away leaving behind a holdless scar. If any one else was using that hold, I'm afraid it's a lot harder now... I still think its possible and almost did the move without it, going straight to gaston the side pull with my left hand. It's almost certainly still 8a up the groove, but is significantly more difficult.
The rock basically broke in the air. I have the sheet of rock in the boot of my car, but from examining it I can't see the actual hold itself; I think it probably broke off and is gone. I don't think there would be any merit in gluing it back on.
Most importantly I didn't kill belayer, or his dog.......

If anyone is interested I'm pretty keen to get back there and try it again on Monday 26th, just lacking a partner currently!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: AJM on November 21, 2018, 06:41:22 am
Do you know if it's one of the holds you'd use if you go out left too? In terms of right hand movements only, I went from a little rat crimp on the left wall of the groove to an intermediate on the flowstone sheet to a more obvious lump/horn/bobble thing on top of a bit of the flowstone sheet, and then eventually to a sidepull in a crack.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 21, 2018, 09:55:09 am
I have not done the left hand sequence but I am almost certain you wouldn’t use it going straight up arête.

I think my right hand movements are basically the same as yours. This was a left hand gaston between the right hand hold on top of the flow stone sheet and the right side pull in crack.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 21, 2018, 09:59:32 am
It’s the hold Shane is using at 2:43 in this video with left hand. I did same high right foot after him, but I didn’t drop knee so deep, just pushed really hard and went over right hand.

https://youtu.be/0eVtDt5C3RI
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on November 27, 2018, 12:53:01 pm
Do you know if it's one of the holds you'd use if you go out left too? In terms of right hand movements only, I went from a little rat crimp on the left wall of the groove to an intermediate on the flowstone sheet to a more obvious lump/horn/bobble thing on top of a bit of the flowstone sheet, and then eventually to a sidepull in a crack.

I tried a new sequence yesterday that felt either as hard as, or a little bit easier, than my old one. It sounds like the hold I pulled off was not part of your beta, and my new beta is closer to yours. Either way it's not any harder than it was!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on January 29, 2019, 02:32:21 pm
How are others getting on?

I had my 7th session since November on Fighting Torque yesterday (includes pulling off crux and needing session to work out new beta).

It’s all coming down to one stopper move for me, the ‘new’ crux move. Essentially 12 hand moves through the hard climbing with a difficult clip off the undercuts after move 4 and move 12 being easy. Move 11 is the hardest move on the route for me and keeps spitting me off even though it’s now easy off the rope.

I guess that’s the nature of redpointing though! I’m sure I just need to get there on a nice day and feeling a bit more rested, but still recruited, and it will just go.

Any joy for anyone else?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on March 05, 2019, 06:23:09 pm
After reading about Ondra's advice to move on from a project after 10 sessions, I thought I'd take stock of how many sessions I've had on Fighting Torque. Having not specifically logged attempts I used Sharkathon, power club and some videos I took whilst trying to figure out beta to get this:

Prior to Nov 18 I had had few goes. Never done all moves. No real links. Never tried to project, just isolated attempts during other sessions. From UKC comments on other routes it seems I tried it on 17 June 17 but felt ‘unfit’ and had at least a go on 30 May 18 with ‘micro progress’. Possibly other tie ons that I have forgotten.

November 2018: Post exams decided to focus on projecting route. I wanted to climb it the original variant up the groove (consensus 8a post various hold loses), not the alternative way via the arête at a debatable hard 7c/7c+/8a (never tried so no opinion from me!). Both variants are distinct enough in my book to be separately graded.


November 18

1. Nov 20 – Worked out all moves, nice sequence through crux however pulled off crux hold trying move one last time before taking out draws.
2. Nov 26 – Reworked. New sequence with throw across groove. Move was possible and I thought it wasn’t harder than old. Turns out way harder. Very low percentage on redpoint, last hard move, and very different style of move, dynamic throw which seems really far after technical tension-y climbing.

December 18

3. Dec 4 – High point trying to cross under on top of shield before crux move.
4. Dec 6 – New high point both hands on top of shield before crux move.
5. Dec 15 – New high point attempting crux move.

January 19

6. Jan 18 – Impossible to do moves due to wind chill. Sacked early.
7. Jan 28 – Same high point trying crux move.

February 19

8. Feb 21 – Not such a good session. Fell three times at undercuts (pinged off, greasy), only got to high point once to even try crux.
9. Feb 25 – Hot day. One go in sun, off at undercuts. One go late in day after doing other things, powered out at top of shield.

March 19

10. Mar 4  – Best session yet. 5 redpoint attempts. Two of them matching high point, one slighting lower past undercuts. After that Sam, (of after the send fame) figured out some slightly different beta using a tiny crimp I had discounted before. I reworked that section, doing crux several times various different ways (at some power cost I think). Discovered I could use the crimp to make crux much easier, pulling myself over to left. After that, two more redpoint attempts getting to new crux sequence. Both times, hand on final pinch, once almost sticking before foot popped.

So turns out that is 10 sessions! Two of them however were basically write offs without meaningful attempts due to conditions, and with what now seems to be really promising beta I have only had two proper goes.

Perhaps the learning point here is that I am pretty poor at redpointing, and if I had figured out that move a while ago I might have done it already. This is the longest I have ever tried to do something though, so maybe for a first limit project not so bad? Previous personal bests have been 7c in a session, one in two goes, one in five. I certainly think it is worth continuing given the tangible progress. With Shark as the obvious outlier, how many sessions have others spent on projects at their maximum?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Bradders on March 05, 2019, 06:27:02 pm
I'm no sport climber, but sounds to me like you ought to stick with it.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: remus on March 05, 2019, 06:45:37 pm
If you're still making tangible progress (e.g. consistently hitting high point, finding new beta) and (presumably) enjoying it why would you stop?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on March 05, 2019, 07:29:14 pm
As above, if you’re enjoying it why stop?

What else would you be doing if you parked this project?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: petejh on March 05, 2019, 07:36:16 pm
how many sessions have others spent on projects at their maximum?

Longest I've spent on a successful outcome at my limit is 10 sessions. I've spent longer on unsuccessful outcomes - Mecca I think I was somewhere up in the teens before getting sick of the drive!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on March 05, 2019, 09:26:24 pm
Yeah, definitely still enjoying it! I’ll see how I’m doing another 10 sessions from now then.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 06, 2019, 09:12:48 am

So turns out that is 10 sessions! Two of them however were basically write offs without meaningful attempts due to conditions, and with what now seems to be really promising beta I have only had two proper goes.

Perhaps the learning point here is that I am pretty poor at redpointing, and if I had figured out that move a while ago I might have done it already. This is the longest I have ever tried to do something though, so maybe for a first limit project not so bad? Previous personal bests have been 7c in a session, one in two goes, one in five. I certainly think it is worth continuing given the tangible progress. With Shark as the obvious outlier, how many sessions have others spent on projects at their maximum?

You sound close to me, I'd stick at it! What you describe as being poor at redpointing I would argue is just part of the process; its great finding holds that make the sequence easier late in the day. I spent 17 sessions on Supercool last summer, but as you mention above that is including several 'sessions' where I dogged up it in dreadful conditions and immediately stripped it again. Its not an exact science and so its only really useful up to a point.

Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: cheque on March 06, 2019, 09:30:14 am
if you’re enjoying it why stop?

 :agree:
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: SA Chris on March 06, 2019, 09:59:23 am
Ondra's advice is not necessarily right, I'm sure he advises many things that don't apply to mortals.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: shark on March 10, 2019, 10:38:15 am
In terms of days if it gets into double figures then stop counting (quote Nic Sellars)

Do you know anybody else who has tried it or done it since you pulled the crux hold off? it could be a grade harder. 

Given that you are still progressing then if psyched keep going. You’re only on it twice a month, not twice a week. In fact more regular visits will help if you are in a position to do so but be ruthless and don’t go if conditions are likely to be sub par.

In your shoes I’d also be looking at specific training - replica moves that sort of thing. Also use visualisation techniques - Mastermind has excellent advice on this.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Doylo on March 10, 2019, 10:49:28 am
It’s only time to stop if it’s feeling like a real slog and the enjoyments completely gone. Why the number 10?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on March 10, 2019, 11:10:26 am
Oh well, I wasn't planning on stopping, just taking stock of what I had done on it, and given the ongoing progress I don't see a need to stop just yet.

Would be interested to see the source of the Ondra quote though!

I do know a few people who have tried it. Two who have done it before and think its a lot harder now, but they only really put cursory efforts in so understandable it would seem harder.

My last session I tried it with someone who figured out new beta that makes the move much more doable. I think it's really close now. In fact the first time I tried the beta I almost did it quite late in the session (and then my foot popped, see below).

Unfortunately with work and other life commitments I am going every day I get the chance to, I would love to go more!

https://youtu.be/xhmIq8NKsqE
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Wood FT on March 10, 2019, 03:02:59 pm
lovely bit of crimpin’
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: andy popp on March 10, 2019, 03:16:13 pm
lovely bit of crimpin’

Great shriek too.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: tomtom on March 10, 2019, 03:34:49 pm
lovely bit of crimpin’

Great shriek too.

:D I liked that too... a power yelp
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on March 10, 2019, 05:02:38 pm
A range I didn’t know I had!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: jwi on March 13, 2019, 12:27:09 pm
After reading about Ondra's advice to move on from a project after 10 sessions, I thought I'd take stock of how many sessions I've had on Fighting Torque.

Bear in mind that Ondra is still in his physical prime age, has never had a serious injury, and – at the time when the advise was given – had never experienced a period of stagnation. For a young climber with plenty potential for quick physical and technical development it simply does not make sense to siege: why siege when you can just wait a few months until you are clearly a better, stronger and fitter climber?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: spidermonkey09 on March 13, 2019, 12:39:01 pm

Bear in mind that Ondra is still in his physical prime age, has never had a serious injury, and – at the time when the advise was given – had never experienced a period of stagnation. For a young climber with plenty potential for quick physical and technical development it simply does not make sense to siege: why siege when you can just wait a few months until you are clearly a better, stronger and fitter climber?

I only think this holds given unlimited time to be honest, even allowing for youth. The constraints of life and work for 'normal people' might necessitate a siege if one is going to climb something near ones limit that is satisfying to them, young or not.
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on March 19, 2019, 02:48:33 pm
After reading about Ondra's advice to move on from a project after 10 sessions, I thought I'd take stock of how many sessions I've had on Fighting Torque.

Bear in mind that Ondra is still in his physical prime age, has never had a serious injury, and – at the time when the advise was given – had never experienced a period of stagnation. For a young climber with plenty potential for quick physical and technical development it simply does not make sense to siege: why siege when you can just wait a few months until you are clearly a better, stronger and fitter climber?

What are you defining as young?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: jwi on March 19, 2019, 03:50:41 pm

What are you defining as young?

less than 20-25 years for males for sports, depending on when the growth stops

for women less than 18-23 maybe?
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: Smith42 on March 20, 2019, 03:48:32 pm
Fighting Torque looks brilliant, stick with it!

I v long standing issue sending The Bulge at Kilnsey. 
2015 seven days, (was falling off last move but the route started to seep)
2016 two days, (badly injured pulley which need on the crux pocket)
2017 nine days (fell off the last hard move with all bolts clipped on three occasions on two separate days including the hottest day of the year and then the thing seeped again)
2018 no days (struggled to climb anything due to injuries and life stuff)

2019 this is the year!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on May 17, 2019, 10:12:32 am
For those interested I have a very low quality beta video of Fighting Torque with one possible sequence since the hold break in the groove. Edited due to rain on actual ascent.

Of no entertainment value.

https://youtu.be/ROcGxWvIH24
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: spidermonkey09 on May 17, 2019, 10:40:02 am
For those interested I have a very low quality beta video of Fighting Torque with one possible sequence since the hold break in the groove. Edited due to rain on actual ascent.

Of no entertainment value.

https://youtu.be/ROcGxWvIH24

That sequence looks savage!
Title: Re: Project 8a
Post by: monkoffunk on May 17, 2019, 10:46:49 am
There is a lot of tension and it took me a long time to get it dialled which was necessary! Stepping across to the pinch used a small two finger crimp, although this may not be required for those above six foot.
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