"Who would possibly relate uk tech grades to sport grades? That would make no sense."
Errrr. Anyone trying to give the UK tech grade to any long hard route to satisfy the likes of yourself or an old skool guidebook writer, when they know perfectly well how hard it is in Fr grades.
"E9 6c and E11 7a do tell you rather more. As much, or more, as 7b+ X and 8c+ R?"
But not anywhere near as much as what you actually should have, which is E9 Fr7b+ and E11 Fr8c+
I'm not saying anything terribly novel here.
The above, for routes over about E6 has already been adopted in many guidebooks.
"Because 8c+ R doesn't suggest something special, whereas E12 might"
Sure. On that we're agreed. As said many times now, I'm NOT trying to get rid of E grades. I'm trying to make them actually work as a coherent system at all levels of difficulty. I agree that if used properly, they're better than all the alternatives for grading trad routes.
"Unless you're saying the UK trad grade is *not* a measure of how hard it is to onsight."
It is up to around E7. As I said before, on stuff above this, it's not in practice how it's used. Things E8 and above are graded on how hard they are to headpoint (and indeed some may be utterly ridiculous to even consider onsighting - doesn't mean they're given E15).
The question is not 'are E-grades perfect' it's 'is there a better system?' If top climbers found it unusable, they would have adopted something like the above. Why haven't they?
They have. You just seem to not have noticed. It looks like this (and this is obviously a very small subset of routes over E9 to illustrate the discussion - there's clearly loads of info missing - just posted where I got to with it earlier in the half an hour I had to play with):
E12?
Bon Voyage 9a Annot (France) James Pearson (2023), Adam Ondra
Hard E11 ?
Echo Wall 8c/8c+ Ben Nevis Dave Macleod (2008)
E11
Power Ranger 8c+ James Pearson (2017)
Tribe 9a/9a+ Cadarese (Italy) Jacopo Larcher (2019), James Pearson
The Best Things... 9a William Moss (2023)
Crown Royale 9a Norway Pete Whittaker (2023)
Hard E10 / E11?
Rhapsody 8c/8c+ Dumbarton Dave Macleod (2006), >3 repeats
Lexicon 8b+ Pavey Ark Neil Gresham (2021), >3 repeats
Meltdown 8c+ Yosemite (US) Beth Rodden (2008), >3 repeats
The Recovery Drink 8c+ Norway Nicolas Favresse (2013), Daniel Jung, Pete Whittaker
E10
Choronzon 8b+ Pembroke Neil Mawson (2014), Steve McClure
Equilibrium 8b+ Burbage Neil Bentley (2000), Neil Gresham, James Pearson
The Groove 8b Cratcliffe James Pearson
Baron Greenback Direct 8b+ Wimberry Pete Whittaker
To Hell And Back 7c+ Hell’s Lum Dave Macleod (2007), Dave Birkett
Le Voyage 8b+ Annot (France) James Pearson (2017). >3 repeats, including a flash by Sebastien Berthe.
Magic Line 8c Ron Kauk (1996), Lonnie Kauk, Hazel Findlay, Carlo Traversi
The Bull 8b+ Jeremy Smith (2013), Ben Harnden
The Bigger Baron 8b+ Pete Whittaker (2014)
Stranger Than Fiction 8c Mason Earle (2015), Brittany Goris, Lor Sabourin, Pete Whittaker
GreatNess Wall 8c Steve McClure (2019)
Century Crack 8c Tom Randall (2011), Pete Whittaker, Danny Parker, Fumiya Nakamura
E9/10
Hold Fast Hold True 8a/8a+ Glen Nevis Julian Lines (2013), Iain Small, Franco Cookson
Hard E9
Face Mecca 7c+ Cloggy Nick Dixon (1989)
Widdop Wall 8a+/8b Widdop John Dunne (1998), Jordan Buys
E9
The Long Hope Route 8b Dave Macleod
The Walk Of Life 8a+ Dyer’s Lookout James Pearson
Dark Religion 8a+ Dinas Mot James McCaffie (2016)
Holdfast 7c+ Glen Nevis Dave Macleod (2002)
The Fugue 8a+ Glen Croe Dave Macleod (2002)
Achemine 8b Dumbarton Dave Macleod (2001)
If Six Was Nine 8a+ Iron Crag Dave Birkett (1992)
Indian Face 7b+ Cloggy Johnny Dawes (1986)
Mission Impossible 8a+ Ogwen Neil Carson
Something’s Burning 8a+/8b Pembroke Charlie Woodburn (2012)
The Big Issue 8b Pembroke John Dunne
The Prow Font 8A+ Kyloe In Andy Earl
Captain Invincible 8b/8b+ Burbage South Sean Miles (1991)
Baron Greenback 8a+ Wimberry Pete Whittaker (2013), Ben Bransby
Gerty Berwick Font 8A Ilkley Ryan Pasquill (2009), James Pearson
The Lizard King 8a+ Ilkley Jacob Cook (2014)
Muy Caliente 8a+ Pembroke Tim Emmett
Clearly there's a LOT more to add into that (huge numbers of routes missing, probably lots wrong in the above). As and when I (or probably better someone else) have time, I'll try and improve it, but it may be later in the year.
But it's fine for demonstrating that the above is actually a cohesive grading system. Giving all the above 6c, 7a or whatever, is not useful and it's not how pretty much anyone climbing those routes thinks about it.
Or at least, it
could be a cohesive grading system, if everyone can agree how E grades should actually be applied, particularly for shorter routes.