UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: spidermonkey09 on June 27, 2020, 01:22:35 pm
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Thought this deserved its own thread, seperate from the general politics one, but feel free to amalgamate. Interested in what others have read.
Listened to this Gary Younge piece as a podcast the other day and thought it was utterly brilliant. A great riposte to those who respond to discussion of BLM by saying "at least its not as bad here as in the US."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/11/what-black-america-means-to-europe-protests-racism-george-floyd
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Thanks for starting this thread SM, I kept thinking of doing one and then backing off not sure quite what to say.
RE reading; I'm currently reading Bury the Chains by Adam Hochschild, about the movement to abolish slavery. I was drawn to it as a result of the focus on statues, as it seems to me we should have some of the people who stopped it, not those who did their best to perpetrate it, and I wanted to learn more about it from that perspective. I don't know about anyone else but I don't remember even touching on the subject in either GCSE or A level history, which feels like a particularly glaring omission.
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I did it in history.
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I studied history at O and A level and wasn't once taught about slavery, including in an A level unit on early C19th British political history: plenty on the Great Reform Act (1832), nothing on abolition (1833). Admittedly this was a long time ago. For what it's worth, I studied O level history at school probably not more than a mile from where the Colston statue stood in central Bristol.
I did it in history.
Could you say more about this? Where did the emphasis primarily lie: largely on abolition, or more broadly on the nature the slave trade, the lived experience of enslavement, the importance of the slave economy to British economic history etc. etc.? Genuine questions; I'd be very interested to know more about how the topic, in it's broadest terms, has been taught in schools in recent years.
In my opinion, Britain has never really confronted the role slavery has played in the nation's history. Attempts to discuss the topic often provoke whataboutery ("But it was other Africans who sold slaves"), attempts to claim virtue ("But we led the way in abolition"), attempts at minimising ("Yes, it was awful, but it was a long time ago and without any consequence now"), to general defensiveness.
In this context, I view the toppling and sinking of the Colston statue in Bristol as a wonderful, joyous act of popular history writing.
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Thanks, spidermonkey, for starting the thread. Gary Younge is always worth reading and I had missed this article.
I want to quote to passages that highlight the consequences of the failure to confront history that I discussed in my post above:
"One of the central distinctions between the racial histories of Europe and the US is that, until relatively recently, the European repression and resistance took place primarily abroad. Our civil rights movement was in Jamaica, Ghana, India and so on. In the post-colonial era, this offshoring of responsibility has left significant room for denial, distortion, ignorance and sophistry when it comes to understanding that history."
"Their [Europeans] indignation all too often bears insufficient self-awareness to see what most of the rest of the world has seen. They wonder, in all sincerity, how the US could have arrived at such a brutal place – with no recognition or regret that they have travelled a similar path themselves. The level of understanding about race and racism among white Europeans, even those who would consider themselves sympathetic, cultured and informed, is woefully low."
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I did it in history.
We were taught about it at School in Hull
due to the links with William Wilberforce. Part of the Hull Transport museum was a mock-up of a below-decks on a slave ship that you walked through. I’m not sure how I feel about it now, or whether it still exists, but it left a lasting and shocking impression on me.
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I did it in history.
We were taught about it at School in Hull
due to the links with William Wilberforce.
Again, I'd be really interested in knowing a bit more detail Guy. Was the emphasis primarily on abolition?
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Thanks, spidermonkey, for starting the thread. Gary Younge is always worth reading and I had missed this article.
I want to quote to passages that highlight the consequences of the failure to confront history that I discussed in my post above:
"One of the central distinctions between the racial histories of Europe and the US is that, until relatively recently, the European repression and resistance took place primarily abroad. Our civil rights movement was in Jamaica, Ghana, India and so on. In the post-colonial era, this offshoring of responsibility has left significant room for denial, distortion, ignorance and sophistry when it comes to understanding that history."
"Their [Europeans] indignation all too often bears insufficient self-awareness to see what most of the rest of the world has seen. They wonder, in all sincerity, how the US could have arrived at such a brutal place – with no recognition or regret that they have travelled a similar path themselves. The level of understanding about race and racism among white Europeans, even those who would consider themselves sympathetic, cultured and informed, is woefully low."
I want to challenge that, whilst not challenging it...
It is only part of the story. The indignation, for instance, is not a modern thing. It is largely what brought about the end of such practices in the first place.
I also think it a huge oversimplification to lump in the population of origin, with the colonial populations they sired. Very different value systems evolved within those respective populations, most often leading to divorce of colony from the originating system of governance.
Obviously, it would take a much greater, deeper, delve into this topic to even come close to a faint facsimile of reality.
Given the differences and delays in information transfer, reporting and ultimately the relative remoteness of colonies from their parent populations, it is wrong to view it with the eyes of an instantaneously connected 21st century human.
Some of these places must have seemed as remote and strange to a 19th century/early 20th ordinary citizen of a colonial power, as Mars does to us today. Months to get there, in risky, cramped conditions; even a quick visit being measured in months and years, etc.
Unlike Andy and some others, I dropped history in my third year, doing only the sciences, maths and technical O levels, Maths, Physics and Geology at A level; so I (truly) welcome a more informed opinion.
Especially on this:
I have often (you know, in the shower, bored on flights or sat in waiting rooms etc) wondered at the breakdown of the colonial era. I would posit, that the thought line I found myself on continues to be (to my view) true today.
As the speed of information transfer, the reliability and number of streams increased, so too did the revulsion of the parent populations at the actions of their colonial offspring. I think “ most” people “ at home” never supported, nor would have supported such things and when they truly became aware of it, they acted to stop it (Belgian Congo/Congo Free State springs to mind).
It certainly has taken a couple or four generations for change to come, but the process continues and the current protests are evidence of that.
In terms of human history, the blink of an eye.
Close? Seem reasonable?
Another question.
How many people do you know, who are “actually” of the opinion that “People of Colour” are inferior (in any way you care to choose) to “White” people? Or any other minority group you can find a way to parcel off?
For me, it’s a minority. Probably less than 20%, and mostly older relatives. I’m certain that would have been vastly higher for my Father, even (only) twenty years ago, when he was the age I am today.
More importantly, I think it will be lower again for my own children.
I don’t think the Alt Right have (or will) captured the youth, any more than the “Communists revolutionaries” and all those various (nominally) left wing (and even more violent and vociferous, than todays right wing movements) groups actually did in the ‘60s - early ‘80s. If you’d asked “ normal” people of our age group (aka, the Parents) of that era, they would have told you that “all” the kids were about to highjack an airliner or kidnap an heiress.
BLM seems the next logical step, amongst others. I think it enjoys majority support. Even the tutting at the statue thing, seems half hearted. The more obvious objectors and counter protestors, seem entirely predictable and almost comically small in number.
By historical standards, their terrorist reprisals against “Liberals”, whilst horrific and awful to see, are pathetic next to the actions of earlier “left wing” groups (bombings, kidnappings etc ) and I would posit that this is indicative of a lower level of support for their cause, globally. I actually think, barring a few waves of resurgence (each smaller than the last) it’s going to die out over the next (guessing) two generations.
In fifty years, the last two hundred, will seem like a brief historical blip, where we woke up to the stupidity of skin colour based divisions.
Well, I hope.
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To be honest Matt, I'm not sure I fully understand your post, especially the first two substantive paragraphs?
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Hi Andy, it was more than a decade ago and I also went to a slavery museum in liverpool at a similar age (with my parents) so my recall of the sylabus is limited anf limely compromised.
I remember learning about the basic economics of the slave trade, the trading triangle, conditions on ships, grim pictures of manacles, chains and punishment items. We were also taught about the abolition, and my resounding memory being that the slave owners didnt really lose out due to reparations, and many previous slaves continuing to work at the same places for very little and the owners recovering money though rent.
My sister is a history teacher amd pretty sure she teaches about the underground rail-road and slavery. Often with history education in the uk, the periods you learn about are somewhat a function of what the teachers want to teach.
I also did a module on modern america, which was from end of ww1 to the end of cold war, including civil rights movement, mccarthyism, jfk, cuban missile crisis, which gave young me an good starting understanding of the current state of the usa. On the other hand, until the last year or 2 I knew very little about the history of china, which seems pretty important for understanding geopolitics at the moment.
Hopee that helps!
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Thanks DG, very interesting; it sounds like the coverage of slavery was pretty comprehensive and well-rounded. Good point to that a lot it depends on the interests of individual teachers. Cool that your sister teaches the Underground Railroad.
Pretty certain my daughter did the same unit as you on America in the C20th. She enjoyed it.
Thanks again for answering.
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Thought this deserved its own thread, seperate from the general politics one, but feel free to amalgamate. Interested in what others have read.
Listened to this Gary Younge piece as a podcast the other day and thought it was utterly brilliant. A great riposte to those who respond to discussion of BLM by saying "at least its not as bad here as in the US."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/11/what-black-america-means-to-europe-protests-racism-george-floyd
Thank you 👏👏👏 for this post.
Always good to get recommendations on this very important subject, especially given how many of us (clear from this thread it wasn’t just me) received shockingly poor history education.
I can recommend the series Roots, if you’ve not seen it. I would say it’s the best and most important series I’ve ever watched. We watch the newest version, I think there was another production in the 80’s that I’ve not seen.
Also recommended Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race.
What are people’s thoughts about the under representation of BAME communities in climbing. Thoughts on barriers in climbing and possible solution to those barriers?
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I did it in history.
We were taught about it at School in Hull
due to the links with William Wilberforce.
Again, I'd be really interested in knowing a bit more detail Guy. Was the emphasis primarily on abolition?
Hey Andy. Yes, it was very much based around Wilberforce and his involvement with the eventual abolition. I can’t say I remember any look into the stories of the black people kidnapped as slaves, but the museum has many pictures, chains and other gruesome artefacts. I can remember them now. I feel like a voyeur when I read that back now.
Hull has an annual arts/music event called Freedom Festival which is really nice, I don’t want to put it down, but feels a tad disconnected from the people who were who wanted said freedom (though there are workshops covering modern day slavery and human rights).
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Thanks Guy. The emphasis on abolition is probably not surprising given the Hull context, but still a little disappointing. Emphasising abolition has often been a way of negating what was being abolished.
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I covered the slave trade in history. (I think in Yr 9 so age 13/14 10 yrs ago). I remember it being the trading triangle, how people were kidnapped by tribes on W Africa then sold to traders, life on plantations, what happened to runaways and a bit on Abolition (never did any American history so revolved around Wilberforce). Didn't cover it in GCSE.
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I don't remember covering the slave trade at school. If I did it was in a very perfunctory manner. Maybe a few lessons on slave plantations but not on the reasons why these even existed.
Lack of BAME representation in climbing is an interesting one. I agree that it is overwhelmingly white and middle class, particularly outside. Indoors is perhaps slightly more diverse, in London especially maybe? Barriers might be, in no particular order: cost (climbing shoes are approaching £100 base price now, and if you intend on going outside the associated costs skyrocket very quickly). A lack of representation probably perpetuates itself; BAME people do not see BAME people at the wall and so don't think of it as 'a sport for me?'
OMM, I've read your post a few times and I'm not 100% sure I understand it completely, but a few things to pick up. You seem to suggest that as populations at home became more aware of colonial outrages abroad they invariably took steps to stop it. I am not convinced this is correct. Imperial masters and news sources may have expressed displeasure at violence committed overseas but I think concrete action to correct this was either non existent or wrongly focused. As an example, when the French imperial powers became aware of the violence on the Voulet-Chanoine mission the official line that followed was to blame the officers actions on madness caused by heat and their very presence in an environment seen as savage and dangerous. In todays parlance, a whitewash. There will be numerous other examples of this. I am obviously paraphrasing but you can read more in the second piece here: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/19198.
Also, I think that a focus on overt racist attitudes in people we might individually know missed the point. I would agree that overt racism is on the wane but that, as it seems to me, is not the problem. The problem is the ingrained racism in our societal structures that has seeped in over centuries. Our efforts to confront this, I think, are not helped by saying that overt racism has improved, because the effect of this is to minimise the importance of tackling the ingrained issues. I know that you aren't trying to do this, but thats the effect of the argument in the mainstream in my view. It falls into the same category mentioned in the Gary Younge piece; namely, responding to racist violence in the US by saying 'at least we aren't as bad here.'
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I guess the "history" I was taught in South Africa was somewhat different to elsewhere in the world, and very different to the truth.
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You seem to suggest that as populations at home became more aware of colonial outrages abroad they invariably took steps to stop it. I am not convinced this is correct.
Except perhaps at the margins, pressure to decolonize the British empire came very largely from indigenous movements within colonised nations (though such anti-colonial movements did try and form coalitions with sections of British society, such as when Gandhi visited Lancashire cotton textile workers). At "home" empire remained a broadly popular project well into the C20th. A recent (2020) survey revealed that a third of the British population still think that empire is something to be proud of.
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I don't remember covering the slave trade at school. If I did it was in a very perfunctory manner. Maybe a few lessons on slave plantations but not on the reasons why these even existed.
Lack of BAME representation in climbing is an interesting one. I agree that it is overwhelmingly white and middle class, particularly outside. Indoors is perhaps slightly more diverse, in London especially maybe? Barriers might be, in no particular order: cost (climbing shoes are approaching £100 base price now, and if you intend on going outside the associated costs skyrocket very quickly). A lack of representation probably perpetuates itself; BAME people do not see BAME people at the wall and so don't think of it as 'a sport for me?'
OMM, I've read your post a few times and I'm not 100% sure I understand it completely, but a few things to pick up. You seem to suggest that as populations at home became more aware of colonial outrages abroad they invariably took steps to stop it. I am not convinced this is correct. Imperial masters and news sources may have expressed displeasure at violence committed overseas but I think concrete action to correct this was either non existent or wrongly focused. As an example, when the French imperial powers became aware of the violence on the Voulet-Chanoine mission the official line that followed was to blame the officers actions on madness caused by heat and their very presence in an environment seen as savage and dangerous. In todays parlance, a whitewash. There will be numerous other examples of this. I am obviously paraphrasing but you can read more in the second piece here: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/19198.
Also, I think that a focus on overt racist attitudes in people we might individually know missed the point. I would agree that overt racism is on the wane but that, as it seems to me, is not the problem. The problem is the ingrained racism in our societal structures that has seeped in over centuries. Our efforts to confront this, I think, are not helped by saying that overt racism has improved, because the effect of this is to minimise the importance of tackling the ingrained issues. I know that you aren't trying to do this, but thats the effect of the argument in the mainstream in my view. It falls into the same category mentioned in the Gary Younge piece; namely, responding to racist violence in the US by saying 'at least we aren't as bad here.'
I certainly did not study slavery at school, I don’t even remember ever discussing racism as a topic, which is hard to believe thinking back.
Yes I think you have touched on two of the biggest barriers, although there are many more I’m sure. I went to an very interesting panel let discussion, at an ABC conference a couple of years back. The topic was diversity and inclusion in climbing (or lack of it). One of the speakers was from BOC Crew, who talked about making our climbing environments welcoming for all, by looking at things like music and images around our climbing centres, as well as Bame representation across the staff.
I think being a newbie in any environment can be very uncomfortable but add to that the ‘Only One’ syndrome, that discomfort can turn into something tantamount to trauma.
I think it’s going to take a lot of effort by our climbing community/ industry, to make much needed changes. This should be across the board, from grassroots business right up to systemic change within our large organisations.
In my opinion we should be using our time now to listen and then when things start opening up, we should be ready to start implementing some of these changes.
You seem to suggest that as populations at home became more aware of colonial outrages abroad they invariably took steps to stop it. I am not convinced this is correct.
Except perhaps at the margins, pressure to decolonize the British empire came very largely from indigenous movements within colonised nations (though such anti-colonial movements did try and form coalitions with sections of British society, such as when Gandhi visited Lancashire cotton textile workers). At "home" empire remained a broadly popular project well into the C20th. A recent (2020) survey revealed that a third of the British population still think that empire is something to be proud of.
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I don't remember covering the slave trade at school. If I did it was in a very perfunctory manner. Maybe a few lessons on slave plantations but not on the reasons why these even existed.
Lack of BAME representation in climbing is an interesting one. I agree that it is overwhelmingly white and middle class, particularly outside. Indoors is perhaps slightly more diverse, in London especially maybe? Barriers might be, in no particular order: cost (climbing shoes are approaching £100 base price now, and if you intend on going outside the associated costs skyrocket very quickly). A lack of representation probably perpetuates itself; BAME people do not see BAME people at the wall and so don't think of it as 'a sport for me?'
OMM, I've read your post a few times and I'm not 100% sure I understand it completely, but a few things to pick up. You seem to suggest that as populations at home became more aware of colonial outrages abroad they invariably took steps to stop it. I am not convinced this is correct. Imperial masters and news sources may have expressed displeasure at violence committed overseas but I think concrete action to correct this was either non existent or wrongly focused. As an example, when the French imperial powers became aware of the violence on the Voulet-Chanoine mission the official line that followed was to blame the officers actions on madness caused by heat and their very presence in an environment seen as savage and dangerous. In todays parlance, a whitewash. There will be numerous other examples of this. I am obviously paraphrasing but you can read more in the second piece here: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/19198.
Also, I think that a focus on overt racist attitudes in people we might individually know missed the point. I would agree that overt racism is on the wane but that, as it seems to me, is not the problem. The problem is the ingrained racism in our societal structures that has seeped in over centuries. Our efforts to confront this, I think, are not helped by saying that overt racism has improved, because the effect of this is to minimise the importance of tackling the ingrained issues. I know that you aren't trying to do this, but thats the effect of the argument in the mainstream in my view. It falls into the same category mentioned in the Gary Younge piece; namely, responding to racist violence in the US by saying 'at least we aren't as bad here.'
Which is why I said “challenge, but not challenge”.
Nothing said by you or Andy is anything other than true, however (and as always, as far as I can see), you’ve lost your target “students” already, after only a couple of posts.
I did say I was making a broad strokes type statement. I agree I could have been more succinct.
The people who agree with, or even listen to, these types of arguments, already feel that way or would have done, if they’d been thinking about it.
I don’t believe you’re going to convince anybody to change their position, with this type of approach.
I think the language, often used by (sorry, can’t think of a better term) intellectuals, is accusatory. Joe Public hears “You should be ashamed” and “It’s your fault” and “You should make amends”.
Click.
They’ve switched off.
They know they didn’t do anything, so you must be talking about someone else and they go back to worrying about their own problems.
People (the citizenry of the Colonial powers) then and now, were and are, mostly, opposed to and even outraged by the excesses of those times and these.
Taking the UK as an example, I suspect, if you could analyse such, the split of the populations in general, back then, would look pretty similar to the split of “progressive” to “ conservative” voters in the UK today: ~40% “progressive”, ~40% “conservative” and ~20% “middle ground”.
Because I see no reason to believe that human nature has changed dramatically in the intervening years.
So, I imagine the progressive personalities would have been always anti slavery (for instance), the middle ground probably didn’t think about it much and the right wingers were too busy thinking about themselves and writing anything “nasty” off as “just life” or “the way it is” ( or often, especially amongst the religious right, “they deserve it”).
Which is how most such issues, from women's rights, LGBT rights and Racism, play out today, on a day-to-day basis.
Then something happens. Some awful event, that outrages not only the sympathetic, but cracks begin to appear further right on the spectrum. Sometimes, quite a long way right. This is when things change.
But they don’t swing all the way the other way. It takes time and education to achieve this. Colonialism is still within (and the US slave era, only just outside) living memory. Take Andy’s “30%of the British population” that think “Empire” was a good thing. Even if you did absolutely nothing to further education on the matter, in five years, that % would drop (I’d bet in 10-15, it would be almost zero). Because that shocking statistic conflates people hankering for “the good old days of their youth” with people who genuinely believe in subjugation of vassal populations (ok, not zero, because you’ll find a few of the latter twunts, probably with a Swastika tattoo or ten).
Andy, colonialism didn’t end because of indigenous uprisings. Though they were the catalyst, in many cases. They almost certainly could have been put down (look at current occupations, such as Gaza, Tibet, Kashmir). Colonialism ended (where it did) because the populations of the colonial powers would not support the measures needed to preserve control.
I’m not saying they were “nice” but the increasing violence required to maintain control, lead to a diminishing support back home and governments elected that were increasingly unlikely to escalate the measures.
Ultimately a colonial ruler, could, put an entire population in chains, or simply wipe them out and replace them. Some powers did just that, at least regionally.
But that became much harder, when it became harder to control the message that reached the people back home, because “most” people really don’t like that kind of thing.
I think, the ballot box is way more powerful than the demonstration (with the proviso that I agree the later will influence the former).
So, I’m saying, I think the best way to make a change today, is not to force people to “confront” their nations past. I think getting a simple “Yup, Slavery sucked” is enough.
Then, start from the position that “most” people are “good” (the progressive 40%), some need a nudge (the 20% in the middle) and the 40% on the right, are actually just part of the spectrum and plenty will be able to move “left” on this matter.
You also have to accept that some are permanently beyond reach. There is zero point in even engaging with them.
Why do I think the waning of overt racism is important, even key?
Because the next generation are not learning to be racist.
Anyway, I’m not challenging the whole BLM movement or even most of the points, I’m challenging the notions put forward in the quote Andy chose.
One last stab at getting my point over. If a student does well in some aspects of an assignment, but not in others, or misses out a few critical points entirely, do you reprimand them and tell them that their efforts were useless? Confront them? Or perhaps compliment their progress, reinforce the importance of the bits they didn’t quite comprehend so well and rewrite your lesson plans for the bits they seem to have missed completely.
Gaah! Too hard to get this right.
I think sermonising turns off as many as it converts or possibly more?
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In the UK outdoor pursuits not just climbing have a disproportionately low take up amongst BAME -
I believe this was recently covered in a countryfile segment - that I’ve not watched - but the comments after this tweet publicising it give you an idea of - I’m not sure how to describe it - I’ll go with what a mess people’s beliefs and understandings are.
https://twitter.com/bbccountryfile/status/1277277327639154688?s=21
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Thanks Matt, thats an interesting response, although I'm not sure whether you're referring to me/Andy specifically, or the BLM movement here?
Nothing said by you or Andy is anything other than true, however (and as always, as far as I can see), you’ve lost your target “students” already, after only a couple of posts.
More generally, I think I start from the standpoint that making people feel uncomfortable is going to be necessary and there is no point hiding away from the fact. Facing the reality of how our society works requires hard conversations to truly understand. For me, saying it feels accusatory is again missing the point. If we take feminism and feminist dialogue as an example, the equivalent is when men start sentences with 'Not All Men...' when conversation turns to everyday sexism or sex assault in Hollywood, or [insert topic here]. We all know Not All Men are sexists and assailants, but all men benefit from a society which has tolerated it, just as everyone white benefits from a society which tolerates ingrained racism. Only by accepting that and bearing it in mind in the future can we hope to improve things. If men were to simply say 'less people are sexist now then they were 50 years ago, so things are going in the right direction and women wanting things to move faster is accusatory', they would correctly be told they are wrong. I don't see why racism is any different as an issue. Black communities don't want to wait for the rest of society to gradually realise they are wrong (if indeed they ever will) and tbh I don't blame them. Hopefully that doesn't come across as accusatory to you personally because it is not intended to, but to paraphrase, I don't think a simple 'slavery sucked' does suffice, because we are still seeing its effects today.
I agree with a lot in the latter part of your post but basically I think we need to combine the waning of racism (hopefully) through the passage of time and the next generation being less racist than the previous with a proactive campaign to challenge peoples perceptions here and now. The only way to do that is via tough conversations I think.
Edit: With regard to this
If a student does well in some aspects of an assignment, but not in others, or misses out a few critical points entirely, do you reprimand them and tell them that their efforts were useless? Confront them? Or perhaps compliment their progress, reinforce the importance of the bits they didn’t quite comprehend so well and rewrite your lesson plans for the bits they seem to have missed completely.
Obviously you don't say peoples efforts are useless. But quite a lot of people are making little to no effort and thats where I think stimulating the conversation can and will bear fruit. Thats why demonstrations play such an important role because the issue moves front and centre.
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What are people’s thoughts about the under representation of BAME communities in climbing. Thoughts on barriers in climbing and possible solution to those barriers?
As a climbing photographer and filmmaker I see myself as having an opportunity to play a positive role in this. I’ve always had a conscious “don’t just feature white blokes” policy and I think I have a fairly good record for that but I am going to make more proactive steps to get more pictures of people outside that category from now on. I often go out to crags and photograph whoever’s there but while that approach gets good shots of the status quo I don’t think saying “I only have a few pictures of BAME people climbing because you don’t see many people from those backgrounds out there” is good enough to be honest.
Climbing is in many ways a monoculture, particularly “outdoor climbing” and I notice that a lot less than I used to when I first started, partly because the situation has changed a bit but also, I’ve realised in the last month, because I’ve got used to mainly being around people from pretty much the same background as me.
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I am going to make more proactive steps to get more pictures of people outside that category from now on.
What does that involve in practice, Mike?
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Well, I appeal for people to be in my films each time I make one and I have narrowed that down in the past (I didn’t shoot Prom Traverse for Stonnis until I’d found a couple who were up for it for example) just never based on ethnic background. I think like a lot of people who’ve always considered themselves anti-racist I now feel more emboldened to be like “I specifically want to feature someone who looks like you because I feel like that would be a good thing” than I have in the past. There are organisations dedicated to BAME involvement in the outdoors and I thought I’d get in touch with them too.
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As a slight aside and illustration of what I was talking about with the “population in chains” comment above (at least metaphorically):
https://time.com/5861100/china-uighurs-birth-control/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=world_&linkId=92206862 (https://time.com/5861100/china-uighurs-birth-control/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=world_&linkId=92206862)
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https://www.climbing.com/news/ten-sleep-route-names-changed-to-honor-racial-justice-movement/
Thoughts?
Should the UK's one get renamed too?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dumbuck-1385/happiness_in_slavery-47412
and could this be seen as offensive?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/malham_cove-610/mulatto_wall-12710
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UKC have already renamed a bunch of route names in their database in the past few weeks.
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Really? Have they let the guidebook writers or first ascentionists know?
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and could this be seen as offensive?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/malham_cove-610/mulatto_wall-12710
Putting aside the routes named after NIN songs, this one definitely is a dated and offensive term. Believe this one has been highlighted previously.
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Some really interesting discussions going on on Insta - Daniel Woods and Nina Williams particularly.
Nina has some really interesting points (https://www.instagram.com/p/CB_J3IEpK16/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link) leading to a good discussion about naming of routes and boulder problems and how guide book writers are handling this.
Daniel's two posts here (https://www.instagram.com/dawoods89/?hl=en). Great to hear him recognise himself as the epitome of white privilege.
There was a post on the Fell Running group on Facebook about encouraging diversity within the sport and it seems that the majority of people felt it was enough to be welcoming which "everyone" in fell running is and therefor it's not a problem...
I think there is a definite role for the climbing wall fraternity to actively seek to engage with BAME communities. I'm not sure what this looks like but I will be speaking with my local friendly climbing wall owner with a view to encouraging this!
UKB has always been the domain of the least marginalised, stigmatised and most privileged people in the country (white men) and often not the easiest place for new folk to fit in. A niche forum within a niche section of a niche sport is likely to be under-representative. I can only think of a handful of climbers from BAME backgrounds and I certainly don't know any.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to open a discussion about how we could be more inclusive...
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Incredible how long the name of this route (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/chudleigh_rocks-291/original_1923_route-26055#photos) (someone’s added the original name in the first feedback comment if you’re unaware) survived- I was dismayed to see that the 2018 CC guide simply describes it as “Devon’s least PC route name”. It’s an improvement on not making any comment whatsoever (as with the similarly-titled route in the 2016 Bosigran guide) but fucking come on. The book that first made me aware of it (100 Limestone Climbs by Chris Craggs) breezily uses the name repeatedly, the impact assisted by the book’s style of using capitals for route names. :blink:
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I assumed (was told?) it was an acronym (not the original racial one) but can't remember what it was of.
Likewise, I once heard that Chic in the Moelwyns was supposed to be short for "California Here I Come" but this too was lost in time.
No idea if either is true.
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I assumed (was told?) it was an acronym (not the original racial one) but can't remember what it was of.
I've heard it stood for "wall, overhang, groove." No idea if that is true. In any case, the slur it spells out would have been in very well known in the 1920s.
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That sounds about it, not saying it's right though.
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This is very relevant as, only last night, I sanitised my first route name. There are two crap choss grooves at Gigg South Upper Crag called Left-hand and Right-hand Siamese Twin. I knocked the "Siamese" off. Nobody is going to notice this (the routes are only in because they share a topo with Power Pinch, Go Johnny Go, and Custard Crack).
UKC have made a start with their database but from what I can see it hasn't gone much further yet than doing a Find and Replace in the database on the worst words and any examples pointed out to them. I expect they'll tackle the rest of it as they go along and let it be community-driven (though this isn't enough really, since the community is largely white and unmarginalised).
The Instagram post from Nina sums up well what I think the basic principle should be:
Distinguish between immature/vulgar/crude names and racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic/ethnocentric/anti-Semitic names. Keep the vulgar names and toss the names that are historically violent and exclusive against entire communities of people.
Nina also hints at the challenge that might be involved:
How do we draw that line? Imperfectly.
I've actually done the first pitch of Mulatto Wall and only yesterday when Chris posted did I actually learn what Mulatto means (I've never heard that word used outside the context of Malham's Right Wing). It seems pretty obvious that this needs to be Bowdlerised, which is something I approach with trepidation because, realistically, if there's going to be lots of these then it can't all be done by committee. No-star routes at Gigg South are one thing, but a 3 star route on Malham's Right Wing? Whatever name I go with will get criticism from one quarter or another.
Mulatto Wall is the name given to the aid route that was put up in the 60's and when Fawcett freed it he didn't change the name. Flipping through my 1974 copy of the Yorkshire Limestone guide, I can see that this is not the most egregious example from that era. The terrifying arete that looms over Gordale's lower waterfall is now known as Deliverance (there's a few other routes as well). I can't make out exactly what line the aid line took (I think various free routes dip in and out of the aid line) but it used to be called Big Nig (free at HVS, says the 1974 edition! :o).
There are some names which are only problematic by association. For instance, China Syndrome (in the select) is not in itself offensive, but it sits next to two unstarred routes which aren't in the select (Yellow Wall an Yellow Peril). Yellow Wall was added in '66 and is called such because the rock is yellow (as opposed to the black rock to the right which gives Black Wall its name); China Syndrome and Yellow Peril (in and of itself a problematic phrase) were both added in 1980. So in our coverage, you have see China Syndrome which isn't placed in a racist context; it's only when it comes to a new definitive that this will become apparent. Do I get ahead and change the name of China Syndrome now?
As Nina points out, this goes beyond race. The same crag also has a problem called The Bitch (the reference is not a female dog). Is this bad enough to warrant sanitising? I'm leaning towards "no", but maybe women who have been called a bitch would think quite differently? Although as a slur it is gendered (in the same way that prick is gendered) it doesn't strike me as being excessively hateful.
It's not my area, but what about Strapadictomy? Seems fairly clear that it belittles the struggles of trans people.
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There's nothing Racist about China Syndrome.
"China syndrome" is a fanciful term—not intended to be taken literally—that describes a fictional result of a nuclear meltdown, where reactor components melt through their containment structures and into the underlying earth, "all the way to China."
It's purely a matter of geography, with China being on the opposite side of the globe to where the supposed US meltdown would have occured. If it had been a UK reactor the film was about it would have been called the Australia Syndrome.
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BTW this could be the second route name purge this year;
https://rockandice.com/opinion/misogyny-on-the-rocks-the-tinder-p-dilemma/
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Thanks for starting this.
In my school in 1970s Somerset there was a single black - a trans-racial adoptee - and a handful of south and east asian kids in about 1800 pupils. We were taught about the slave trade in quite some detail when I was 12/13, both from an economic perspective but very much about the human suffering too. I remember the plans of the ship's deck and how many people were squeezed in to them and it made a big impact at the time. The school was a new Comprehensive and had a relatively liberal ethos for the 70s - boys did needlework and cookery, girls did woodwork and metalwork. Some of the staff were time serving ex-Grammar school but many of the younger ones bought into a modern education. However, there was no mention of racism and no connection made with contemporary issues. I studied O level history (18th to mid 20th century European) and the external syllabus made no mention of slavery: I learned a whole lot about the Lancashire cotton industry, flying shuttles and Spinning Jennys, but nothing about where the cotton came from.
Two points I've been reflecting on recently. There is good evidence that BAME and east asian students perform less well than expected when assessment is not anonymous. This 'white bonus' disappears when marking is blind. I've been pushing to make all assessment anonymous (clinical assessments and presentations are more of a challenge, written work should be trivially easy) for the last year but it has felt like banging my head against a brick wall at times. The default setting for the softwear used for on online marking is not anonymous and it seems remarkably difficult to change this. I think we're nearly there and recent events have certainly helped but I've been staggered how much persistence has been needed when this should be a no-brainer. It shouldn't have been necessary but made it clear to me how discrimination can exist in organisations whose individuals see themselves as non-discriminatory and the need to actively counteract it.
I don't feel equipped to talk about barriers to participation in the outdoors but I think it's more complex than the price of shoes. Wil, of this parish, made some sensible points here (https://www.wiltreasure.co.uk/post/black-lives-matter-and-the-outdoor-community) although he shares my limitation. Covid-19 has had a big impact on the range of people in my local outside spaces. Hampstead Heath has gone from Notting Hill the movie to approaching Notting Hill the carnival. I've been going for walks on the Ridgeway for decades. For the first time this Sunday my fellow walkers started to resemble what you would expect from south east England including London. Perhaps things are starting to change.
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There's nothing Racist about China Syndrome.
"China syndrome" is a fanciful term—not intended to be taken literally—that describes a fictional result of a nuclear meltdown, where reactor components melt through their containment structures and into the underlying earth, "all the way to China."
It's purely a matter of geography, with China being on the opposite side of the globe to where the supposed US meltdown would have occured. If it had been a UK reactor the film was about it would have been called the Australia Syndrome.
For instance, China Syndrome (in the select) is not in itself offensive
:read:
It is the fact that the route was added later to sit next to Yellow Wall (not racist in itself, it's just a reference to the colour of the rock and is a counterpoint to the earlier Black Wall - again a reference to the colour of the rock) and sits along Yellow Peril (racist). If you read Nina's Instragram post you'll see her reference a route called Yellow Fever which is not racist in and of itself but becomes racist by association by being on a section of crag called China Wall.
If in our guide all the routes were to be included I would Bowdlerise Yellow Peril and China Syndrome. As it is I'm leaning towards leaving it as it is for now because nobody will be able to look at that part of the book and be marginalised as it stands, and I'm working on the principle that an editor shouldn't change route names unless it is necessary.
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In the news today: on the 60th anniversary of independence of the Democratic Republic of Congo, for the first time ever a Belgian monarch expresses regret for the nation's colonial history, but stops short of an apology. Similarly, British Prime Ministers have expressed regret for slavery, but never an apology. Personally, I think both countries need to take that step.
King Leopold II ran the Congo as a private enterprise in the late C19th/early C20th and did so with unparalleled brutality - up to 10 million may have died under his regime. Belgian then maintained a highly exploitative relationship with its colony until independence in 1960. One year later, Belgium conspired in the assassination of the of Patric Lumumba, the DRC's first democratically elected leader.
Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/30/belgian-king-philippe-expresses-profound-regrets-for-brutal-colonial-rule
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Sure I mentioned before, but this is worth a read, for an insight into the Congo's horrific history.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blood-River-Journey-Africas-Broken/dp/0099494280
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I don’t really know how to explain this, but for many years I was the butt of considerable abuse, at Wadebridge comprehensive, North Cornwall.
I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.
My mother is of Italian descent and my father had a Romany grandmother. I’m quite dark skinned, if blue eyed. (In later life, I have often been taken as Lebanese, Turkish or generally Eastern Mediterranean).
A North Cornwall secondary school in the early 1980’s was not exactly ethnically diverse. However, a local doctor had adopted a couple of brothers from somewhere in Africa and Jamie Yoki (the eldest, and I don’t think I ever knew exactly where he came from or how to spell his name) was in my year. He was one hell of an athlete and top set for all academics.
More importantly, for me, a family with origins in the Subcontinent, moved into the town to open an Indian restaurant. There were two boys, if I remember correctly, and the eldest (Johnathan, I think) joined the year above me, in my first year, the younger went into Primary.
The family were also called Glover.
I think, right up to the fifth year, many people assumed I was Johnathan’s brother.
I was quite well aware of the difference a perceived racial origin could have on your day to day life...
I should add, I know Johnathan was often called ‘Paki” , but I don’t think anyone ever threw that my way. Also, looking back, it’s funny that the kids didn’t know there was a difference between a “Wop” and person from South East Asia...
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Distinguish between immature/vulgar/crude names and racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic/ethnocentric/anti-Semitic names. Keep the vulgar names and toss the names that are historically violent and exclusive against entire communities of people.
:agree: Conflating route names that are racist or similarly poisonous with those that simply have swear words in is an absolute gift to people who don’t want the former to change. My mates in Arkansas are embroiled in trying to change racist route names (one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...) and large parts of the depressingly substantial resistance to this is whataboutery regarding the existence of routes with rude or sweary names (lots or those in AR too) as a kind of attempted justification.
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I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.
Matt, I really want to reply to your long post yesterday but am snowed under with work today. What I didn't know until recently is that WoP - originally applied to Italian-Americans and other American immigrants from southern Europe - is that it is an acronym for "Without Papers."
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Lots of thoughts to reply to here.
I learned about the slave trade at school, I'm shocked to learn that wasn't universal. I also opted for history at GCSE where we studied 20th C American history including the Civil Rights movement right up to Rodney King. The references to Britain's role in all of this, or civil rights in the UK, or 1980s race riots were limited. We studied China under Mao Zedong too. I remember also having lessons on racism in primary school, despite being in a very white rural area of south Wales. These were well intended but remarkably clumsy and led by the same council employee who did our cycling proficiency tests and videos about why you shouldn't climb on pylons.
Re: Route names. There are clearly some routes names that should just be chucked out. I feel like this should be acknowledged in guidebooks rather than simply changed. I hadn't even thought about the context problem, but that's clearly important.
I've been recording some interviews with people around their experiences of feeling included in the outdoors (rather than climbing specifically). Some of them will start to appear on my website and in all good podcast apps, the first one is out already. This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.
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(one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...)
This is like a proper geek out pub quiz question! All the famous ones I can think are from the dosage era visits.
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I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.
Matt, I really want to reply to your long post yesterday but am snowed under with work today. What I didn't know until recently is that WoP - originally applied to Italian-Americans and other American immigrants from southern Europe - is that it is an acronym for "Without Papers."
I didn’t know that. I knew the term from all those Saturday afternoon B&W, BBC2, war and gangster movies that we grew up on in the ‘70s/‘80s, which I assume is where everybody else at the time picked it up.
This reminded me of a relatively recent occasion of this for me. I was doing the Plymouth Uni Small Craft Surveying CPD course in 2009. Only about ten candidates and one was a twenty-something from Southampton. On the first day, I had done the whole introduction thing and asked a question or two, before lunch. Over lunch, this lad comes up to me, complimented me on my “Well spoken” English (his words) and asked which part of the world I came from.
This is a far from everyday thing, which is why the specific examples stick out, but it has been elucidating, over the years.
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This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.
I totally agree with this. I'm in a few outdoor facebook groups and any post raising this issue is jumped on with aggressive "everything is fine", "they can going walking/climbing if they want" responses, the second of which seems reasonably telling.
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This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.
I totally agree with this. I'm in a few outdoor facebook groups and any post raising this issue is jumped on with aggressive "everything is fine", "they can going walking/climbing if they want" responses, the second of which seems reasonably telling.
Looking through the likes of my Insta feed, where I follow a lot of climbing, diving, mountaineering, bush craft, survival skills etc type groups and hashtags, I don’t think I’ve seen any, let alone a little, Black participation. Even though some of the tracking and bush craft groups are Africa based.
Plenty of Middle Eastern (diving, bushcraft and climbing, in particular), several East Asian (again diving and bushcraft. Particularly Philippine, Korean and Sri Lankan) and, of course, climbing is obviously massive in Japan.
I shall do some active hunting, see what’s around.
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Just another thing about guidebooks. When I started out on this project about 4 years ago now (fucking hell!) I had it very much in mind that I needed to get photos of women and BAME people in there. In particular I was very inspired by the Wired Pembroke guide where the presence of women operating across the grade spectrum was really noticeable.
For the first few years I was focussed on getting topo photos done for the limestone crags and gathering up scripts for the crags (and frankly, childcare and work commitments made progress very slow). Over this time I took my camera climbing with me and made a point of trying to get action photos wherever I could. I'm not a great photographer but I am very committed to this book, and I think that at least 70% of what makes a good climbing photo is its composition which can be very simply boiled down to one golden rule which is not shooting from below. Because I make myself put the time in to do this I think I've got some decent shots. But, once you've done the following, you find that you've lost a very significant amount of your own climbing day:
Arranged to go climbing on a day when the light is good and you can go climbing at the right time of day to catch said light
Persuaded someone to climb the route you want to photograph
Climbed an adjacent route/abbed in off a dodgy crag top belay (lowering over the lip of Malham from an only half-adequate belay to photograph Swift Attack on the Terrace Wall was particularly memorable, it was only once I was over the edge that I found a thread back-up which made me 100% happy with the belay)
Switched over to an abseil if you've climbed a sport route
Hauled your camera up
Realised you need to change lens and have juggled £00's of precision glassware around at 20m off the ground
Hung around waiting for people to get climbing
Harangued people (climbers and also passing tourists) to move themselves or bags out of shot (you also have to hassle people to wear non-rock coloured clothes before they leave the house)
Prayed that the sun goes in/comes out (depending on what rock type and crag you're working on)
etc etc etc
You can't really do this if you've a climbing partner waiting to climb something and you're arsing around trying to get photos, so you're best off doing this when operating as a three. If you consider that you might also have to spend a lot of time (hours, if you want to get it right, and getting it right is vitally important) sketching lines and belay positions onto the topo photo printouts that you shot on a previous visit (when you need the crag to be dry, seepage-free, have sun on it BUT NOT TOO MUCH SUN IF IT'S LIMESTONE!, be in the right season (i.e. not summer if you're shooting crags with tree cover)), then its a miracle if you get any climbing done at all. This work has to slot in alongside your work and family commitments and you have to try not to sacrifice too much of your climbing or you'll end up resenting the project.
So it's difficult to get photos and I was also surprised by how difficult it is to get people to model for photos. I have become almost a person non-grata at LMC evening meets because I spend half the time trying to boss people around when they just want to get on with climbing. I was at Anston Stones on Sunday and Carl had asked if I could try and get some pics for the new Esoteric East guide. I got some shots (nothing great), but you really do have to be prepared to intrude on other people (Ned Feehally and Ben Pritchard in this case) in quite an awkward way to manage it.
Also, when you're trying to get guidebook photos, sometimes the requirements are quite specific. Like, I'm going to Brimham tonight and I need a landscape photo of a lady leading a trad route with the action on one side of the frame and some backdrop (to put map, approach description etc etc over) on the other. Any landscape photos where the action is dead centre will not be useable (unless they can be cropped significantly) as a spread because the climber will be gobbled up by the gutter of the book.
If you ask people who you know are going to a crag which you need a photo for to get a photo for you, they will generally not do it. They'll either: find it too awkward to ask to take a photo of a stranger, say it's too crowded, say the light isn't right, say nobody is wearing the right colours, be too busy doing their own climbing, etc etc. Sometimes they will take a photo and it'll be crap. Sometimes they'll take a photo and it will be brilliant and you will fall to your knees, raise your hands to sky and scream "thank you, God!" and love that person forever for helping you.
Scouring social media is one way to get photos, but often people have uploaded to Instagram and got rid of the original photo from their phone, leaving you with a fairly low-res image to work with.
Because of all this, you tend to find if you flip through any guidebook (I'm sure there will be exceptions), that the vast vast majority of photos are taken of bouldering (easy to get good photos), or are taken by the small handful of people in the core guidebook team, or people who have worked on guidebooks and so never ever go to a crag without their camera, or people like Mike who are masochists and love taking great photos, or pros who know the score and do it for a living. The subjects are very often the same small group of people who know the score and actually bring a change of clothes to the crag when you ask them too instead of laugh it off because they think you were joking.
I'm sorry I've rambled. I want to be very clear about two things:
Most importantly is that this is not me saying "it's hard so we won't bother trying". We must continue to try as hard as we can to increase the number of photos of women and BAME people in guidebook photos. It's important. I will do my best to make this happen for our book. The reason I say all of the above is not to try and excuse the lack of BAME people in guidebooks, but just to try and explain why something that seems so easy (getting photos of anybody [male/female/BAME/etc] for a book) is actually harder than you think already without then applying the additional filter of looking for subjects who unfortunately make up a fairly small percentage of the climbing community.
Secondly, I recently put out a public appeal for photos and must have received over a hundred different responses. Some of them were, frankly, terrible, but a lot of them were absolutely brilliant and have been a huge help. I am grateful to every single person who submitted for taking the time to do so. Even if their photos were crap, they heard a cry for help and they answered as best they could.
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I got a free red coat the other day, so if you get a telephoto lens you can take some snaps of me next time I go out x
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Off topic - Will I feel your pain. Getting good photos for guidebooks is bloody hard thankless work. Asking pro's or doing it yourself are the only ways to get it done. I had a secret weapon for NWL - Mike Hutton, total legend. He took various shots over a few years. Towards the end of the project I still had a list of 'wants', so I arranged a day for him to come to N.Wales when I'd arranged to get 6 different climbers on 6 different esoteric crags (Enemy Wall E6 first ascent, Surprise Zawn 'DWS' - Robins solo'ing above a low tide, Lower St Tudno's E2 girdle traverse, Hornby Crags, Noticeboard Crag, one other I can't remember). At the end of the day he was totally fucked from dashing from one place to the next, setting up, packing up, moving on to the next. All timed to try to get the light. Think we gave him lunch, and a couple of pints and a pork pie in the evening. Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.
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Well, I appeal for people to be in my films each time I make one and I have narrowed that down in the past (I didn’t shoot Prom Traverse for Stonnis until I’d found a couple who were up for it for example) just never based on ethnic background. I think like a lot of people who’ve always considered themselves anti-racist I now feel more emboldened to be like “I specifically want to feature someone who looks like you because I feel like that would be a good thing” than I have in the past. There are organisations dedicated to BAME involvement in the outdoors and I thought I’d get in touch with them too.
This is good to hear Mike, I’m glad you are feeling more confidence to make positive changes.
Do keep me updated if you find any such organisations, that would be good to support.
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I'm following this conversation with interest but have little of any clarity to add at this point. However I heard parts of this on the radio the other day and her words and her strength have shaken and emboldened me. We must do better.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-53200019/wembley-park-murders-emotional-interview-with-mum-of-sisters-found-dead
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Really? Have they let the guidebook writers or first ascentionists know?
I don't think so. I think they came to the conclusion that they needed to make the changes immediately and that they can sort out guidebook issues and new names later. I think most have been renamed something generic with a note on the climb page as to why it has been changed (but not referencing the old name).
There is a thread on UKC about it but I haven't followed it so some or all of the above may be inaccurate.
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(one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...)
This is like a proper geek out pub quiz question! All the famous ones I can think are from the dosage era visits.
Grand Dragon (https://www.mountainproject.com/route/112847774/grand-dragon)
Hauled your camera up
I’ve never bothered with this step Will, I just ab or jug with the bag slung over my shoulder.
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Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.
I only know him vaguely through the wall but a really nice chap.
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He's worth following on Facebook, puts up some great stuff
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It is amazing how deeply rooted and pernicious, institutional racism is and how banal it seems until it is pointed out:
(https://i.ibb.co/GdRvB67/92654-E5-F-C998-47-B0-8-AE7-DDEC392-F21-DB.jpg)
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Publisher and Editor in Chief of Rock and Ice, steps down:
https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/ (https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/)
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Publisher and Editor in Chief of Rock and Ice, steps down:
https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/ (https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/)
The comments (following the article) are not especially encouraging for the way forward though 😱
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The comments on Woods' instagram posts are also a complete shitshow.
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The comments on their Insta posts for the (terrible) Bisharat article and also this letter are about 80% horrible too. Same old defensive unconsidered positions.
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Off topic - Will I feel your pain. Getting good photos for guidebooks is bloody hard thankless work. Asking pro's or doing it yourself are the only ways to get it done. I had a secret weapon for NWL - Mike Hutton, total legend. He took various shots over a few years. Towards the end of the project I still had a list of 'wants', so I arranged a day for him to come to N.Wales when I'd arranged to get 6 different climbers on 6 different esoteric crags (Enemy Wall E6 first ascent, Surprise Zawn 'DWS' - Robins solo'ing above a low tide, Lower St Tudno's E2 girdle traverse, Hornby Crags, Noticeboard Crag, one other I can't remember). At the end of the day he was totally fucked from dashing from one place to the next, setting up, packing up, moving on to the next. All timed to try to get the light. Think we gave him lunch, and a couple of pints and a pork pie in the evening. Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.
Spot on. I'd add he is fabulous company on these photography trips and is the only person I've ever met who can talk as much as he does without ever being annoying. Mike does need some income though.
There are quite a few other climbing photographers not far behind him in the hero stakes. It's one of the most selfless tasks in guidebook production.
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Back on the subject...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/04/police-smash-car-window-ryan-colaco-tv-interview-racism
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Back on the subject...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/04/police-smash-car-window-ryan-colaco-tv-interview-racism
Thanks Offwidth.
Two related incidents:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CCO45i-nUu7/?igshid=13bnkf96lw27v
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/53305712
Two Olympic athletes seemingly aggressively detained, stopped and searched for, essentially, driving a Mercedes, with their 3 month old child in the car.
Imagine being stopped like this with your child there! The only mitigation is a mention that they drove on the wrong side of the road, but if that's true, why weren't they charged?! Smells like bullshit to me, trying to justify it.
I can safely say I've never even considered the possibility I might be stopped whilst driving, let alone like this, unless I actually broke the law. The idea of just being randomly stopped is inconceivable to me.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CCMMSqZhwg3/?igshid=qt22nbkif6cc
Three black men out for a walk in London with a dog. Off to the park. Stopped and searched not once but twice. Nothing found. Zero evidence they'd done anything wrong whatsoever. They're clearly relaxed and peaceful, then out of nowhere are forcibly restrained.
Again, I can safely say I've never even considered the possibility I might be detained like this whilst walking my dog. In my mind neither of these can possibly be justified as anything other than racial profiling. Both times the people assaulted by the police react badly; they don't exactly keep calm, but why should they! I think I'd be angry too.
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Carey Davies (ex?) BMC hillwalking man currently being targeted by all sorts of trolls/bots/cunts on Twitter for posting about a White Lives Matter banner being flown on Mam Tor.
I believe more hikes are planned...
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I've had to leave the room a few times at work because I've been so angry at what some of the people I work with are saying. I did challenge it initially, but was met with a brick wall and a total lack of will to engage critically with anything. Some simply don't have the rhetorical skills to engage, the world is black and white (no pun intended). As I'm only there temporarily I don't have a lot of capital, plus I'm an outsider there being "posh" and male.
I have, unfortunately, heard lots of talk of "White Lives Matter" and "It's them that's the racists now anyway" and at least one "they've got equality now, what more do they want?" This is in a care home with a 2:1 split between white, working-class women and black African women who immigrated as adults. I've also seen team leaders at the home imitating the accents of black residents (one Jamaican, one Nigerian).
The awkward thing here is that the last point is simply that the conversation hasn't got there for many of them. To my sensibilities imitating the accents is shocking, but they view it as a friendly gesture. In fairness they do it with some of the white women as well (Scottish and Irish), but I don't think they would understand this as "othering" or understand why doing it with white people might have a different context to black people.
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Carey Davies (ex?) BMC hillwalking man currently being targeted by all sorts of trolls/bots/cunts on Twitter for posting about a White Lives Matter banner being flown on Mam Tor.
I believe more hikes are planned...
I should imagine a few of the bastards post on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.
https://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-team/
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Trevor Massiah on the curious climber podcast (https://anchor.fm/curiousclimberpodcast/episodes/Black-in-65---Trevor-Eugine-Masiah-eg5plh). Funny and serious, sometimes simultaneously. Worth listening right to the end.
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Trevor Massiah on the curious climber podcast (https://anchor.fm/curiousclimberpodcast/episodes/Black-in-65---Trevor-Eugine-Masiah-eg5plh). Funny and serious, sometimes simultaneously. Worth listening right to the end.
Thoroughly enjoyed this, if that’s the right word. Only had the pleasure of meeting him a few times but what a lovely chap.
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on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.
I tried to debate one of the most avid UKC posters on these issues a couple of weeks ago. The topic was slavery, economic history, and British wealth today. Despite themselves constantly repeating the two simple-minded assertions they'd latched on to, I was accused of making assertions, not arguments. But when I carefully laid out the case over several posts, they and another poster simply stopped replying to me. My conclusion was that there are some people for whom it is really, really important to insist that there is no racism and that slavery is barely even a footnote to British history. I wonder why on earth that could be ... ? It's almost like it's important to their identity ... ?
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on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.
I tried to debate one of the most avid UKC posters on these issues a couple of weeks ago. The topic was slavery, economic history, and British wealth today. Despite themselves constantly repeating the two simple-minded assertions they'd latched on to, I was accused of making assertions, not arguments. But when I carefully laid out the case over several posts, they and another poster simply stopped replying to me. My conclusion was that there are some people for whom it is really, really important to insist that there is no racism and that slavery is barely even a footnote to British history. I wonder why on earth that could be ... ? It's almost like it's important to their identity ... ?
I am confused by this apparent desire for “tribal” (?) identity. I’m British, because that’s what it says on my passport, but I’ve always loved the fact that I only need to look back a couple of generations to realise I’m a total mongrel with great and great great grandparents from Scandinavia, Italy, Eastern Europe as well as three out of four countries of the UK and as for the Romany side, they literally come from “all over” Eurasia.
I’m proud that my children have dual nationality. Proud that my daughter was born in Arabia.
This doesn’t preclude me, simultaneously, being proud to be British (though it does lead me to conclude that I would be me, wherever I was born), it just means I don’t really see it as being “superior to” anywhere else.
OT. Sorry.
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A couple of relevant articles from the Guardian today. Pretty much what you might expect from Benjamin...
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/07/benjamin-zephaniah-coppers-were-standing-on-my-back-and-i-thought-ok-im-going-to-die-here
...and the latest episode in the surreal developments in the US
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/06/donald-trump-bubba-wallace-noose-tweet-nascar
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Case Business School to change its name.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53310997?fbclid=IwAR1_2Q4BIMt05Pfl8IsduXY_guebu9b72ef2CvO_hgcfCGg5Vc3Q8AH2iNk
This seems entirely appropriate to me.
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An interesting article about racist route names and implementing a system to flag offensive ones on Mountain Project. However it looks like the nicked the idea from the creator and advocate of the system, Melissa Utomo, a woman of colour. Not a good look for Mountain Project. And definitely smacks of wanting to look like you are anti-racist without actually engaging in any change.
https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/around-the-bonfire/2020/7/6/how-mountain-project-stole-from-a-woman-of-color
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For those of us who've only come across it in passing, is Mountain Project basically a US version of UKC?
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For those of us who've only come across it in passing, is Mountain Project basically a US version of UKC?
MP is all user-generated content: forums, photo albums, and a route database / area guide. It has none of UKC's original journalism. The route database is important, it is the de facto guidebook and definitive record for many US areas. It's hard to underestimate how well-off we are in the UK for guidebooks in comparison. My gut feeling is the US has a larger number of blatantly discriminatory names than the UK (I'll not speculate why) though we are hardly spotless. As MP is often the 'guidebook committee' it is important they get this right.
Mountain Project was owned by REI for a few years but has recently passed back to the original owner/developer. The story about stealing the notification softwear (or the concept, I'm unclear) does not look good. Bending over backwards, it's possible the current owner/developer didn't have his eye on the ball during the change of ownership and, in his rush to put something in place when it finally became obvious to him it was needed, did not give credit where he should have done. I'd like to hear his side of the story.
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Somebody I follow on the old Instagram posted a story about this. It was a number of route pages from Mountain Post with unpleasant names. There was then the response from an admin (probably a volunteer admin such as they have on UKC as opposed to somebody actually running the site) who had responded to the flags with some MUHrica-esque bullshit.
For what it's worth I was on a Zoom call last Saturday with guidebook producers from the CC, FRCC, Northumberland MC, SMC, and the YMC and when I raised the issue nobody batted an eyelid. Everybody is on board.
(Not that our view is at all relevant because Rockfax will soon complete their mission of wiping definitive and volunteer-produced guidebooks from the face of the earth. All will be consumed by the mighty Rockfax).
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Somebody I follow on the old Instagram posted a story about this. It was a number of route pages from Mountain Post with unpleasant names. There was then the response from an admin (probably a volunteer admin such as they have on UKC as opposed to somebody actually running the site) who had responded to the flags with some MUHrica-esque bullshit.
For what it's worth I was on a Zoom call last Saturday with guidebook producers from the CC, FRCC, Northumberland MC, SMC, and the YMC and when I raised the issue nobody batted an eyelid. Everybody is on board.
(Not that our view is at all relevant because Rockfax will soon complete their mission of wiping definitive and volunteer-produced guidebooks from the face of the earth. All will be consumed by the mighty Rockfax).
All is not lost Will. There will be 12 from the various peoples of Britain who will form a fellowship and despite difficult adventures some will reach mount Doom and throw Alan's ring of power to destruction.
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An interesting article about racist route names and implementing a system to flag offensive ones on Mountain Project. However it looks like the nicked the idea from the creator and advocate of the system, Melissa Utomo, a woman of colour. Not a good look for Mountain Project. And definitely smacks of wanting to look like you are anti-racist without actually engaging in any change.
https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/around-the-bonfire/2020/7/6/how-mountain-project-stole-from-a-woman-of-color
I read that article yesterday, and for what it's worth I think it really over eggs the 'stolen feature' angle. Flagging of content is a very normal feature (it's been on the UKC forums forever, for example) and the implementation she's designed could have been lifted pretty much wholesale from, say youtube:
(https://i.imgur.com/Kf5NHLs.jpg)
For me it really spoilt the article as it distracts from the far more interesting topic of offensive route names.
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Somebody I follow on the old Instagram posted a story about this. It was a number of route pages from Mountain Post with unpleasant names. There was then the response from an admin (probably a volunteer admin such as they have on UKC as opposed to somebody actually running the site) who had responded to the flags with some MUHrica-esque bullshit.
For what it's worth I was on a Zoom call last Saturday with guidebook producers from the CC, FRCC, Northumberland MC, SMC, and the YMC and when I raised the issue nobody batted an eyelid. Everybody is on board.
(Not that our view is at all relevant because Rockfax will soon complete their mission of wiping definitive and volunteer-produced guidebooks from the face of the earth. All will be consumed by the mighty Rockfax).
All is not lost Will. There will be 12 from the various peoples of Britain who will form a fellowship and despite difficult adventures some will reach mount Doom and throw Alan's ring of power to destruction.
I plan to start a series of guides called RickFix that will shamelessly skim the shamelessly skimmed Rockfax publications. The guides will cunningly replace the 'fluttery heart' and 'strong arm' icons within the originals with a ice cream, and unicorn respectively. To avoid any copyright issues with the topo sketches/lines on crag photo's - a machine learning algorithm will randomly shift the lines slightly - unintendely making them more accurate in the process.
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Back on topic. If you've not seen this - its worth watching Michael Holding talking during the cricket yesterday. Bear in mind this wasnt a pre-planned segment - this is Michael talking off the cuff filling in during a rain delay - and its all the more powerful for it.
https://news.sky.com/story/michael-holding-ex-west-indies-stars-impassioned-plea-to-end-institutionalised-racism-12024733
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I read that article yesterday, and for what it's worth I think it really over eggs the 'stolen feature' angle. Flagging of content is a very normal feature.
This was my feeling too. There was a lack of detail about quite a few value judgments which undermined the article, even if the main thrust of it was good. Stealing her intellectual property is a big claim, it would have been good to see details because, as you say, flagging offensive content is normal practice.
I had a look at her proposal document. It was good, involved iterations to improve it based on feedback etc. This amounted to changing the words from "report this page" to "flag innapropriate content" and that users liked having an optional text box to explain. It's also quite basic, there's no way it's a complex enough idea to constitute the theft of intellectual property in a legal sense. It used the existing Flag feature on MP forums as its basis. So really, this tool amounted to making sure the wording and options were correct and that the text complied with accessibility standards. It would have been an easy win for MP to take her project and pay her for it though.
The tool MP have used is hidden in the "Improve this Page" button and doesn't present options, only the ability to flag the route. It also says on the page that the route has been flagged.
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Back on topic. If you've not seen this - its worth watching Michael Holding talking during the cricket yesterday. Bear in mind this wasnt a pre-planned segment - this is Michael talking off the cuff filling in during a rain delay - and its all the more powerful for it.
https://news.sky.com/story/michael-holding-ex-west-indies-stars-impassioned-plea-to-end-institutionalised-racism-12024733
Excellent.
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Back on topic. If you've not seen this - its worth watching Michael Holding talking during the cricket yesterday. Bear in mind this wasnt a pre-planned segment - this is Michael talking off the cuff filling in during a rain delay - and its all the more powerful for it.
https://news.sky.com/story/michael-holding-ex-west-indies-stars-impassioned-plea-to-end-institutionalised-racism-12024733
Excellent.
Agreed, was fully expecting this to go no further than the usual "starting a conversation" gumph, as an unfortunate amount of other coverage (including in the climbing media) seems to have done. The clear and passionate focus on imbalances in representation (particularly in the ECB) and the explicit calling out of unconscious bias in white communities that wouldn't consider themselves racist was a refreshing surprise.
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Back on topic. If you've not seen this - its worth watching Michael Holding talking during the cricket yesterday. Bear in mind this wasnt a pre-planned segment - this is Michael talking off the cuff filling in during a rain delay - and its all the more powerful for it.
https://news.sky.com/story/michael-holding-ex-west-indies-stars-impassioned-plea-to-end-institutionalised-racism-12024733
Excellent.
Agreed, was fully expecting this to go no further than the usual "starting a conversation" gumph, as an unfortunate amount of other coverage (including in the climbing media) seems to have done. The clear and passionate focus on imbalances in representation (particularly in the ECB) and the explicit calling out of unconscious bias in white communities that wouldn't consider themselves racist was a refreshing surprise.
Agreed as well. Had meant to get round to watching this and glad I have now, articulate, passionate and powerful.
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Jon Stewart posed this on the other channel. It is a blog from a criminologist and was part of a longer response to some typical nonsense from Sam Harris, but is well worth a listen in its own right as it dismantles the arguments often presented to deny key assertions of the BLM cause. It gets better as it progresses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A1cmqbI31M&t=5355
For fairness this was the Sam Harris blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU&
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The interesting story of a cop turned criminologist.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/31/as-a-cop-i-killed-someone-then-i-found-out-it-happens-more-often-than-we-know
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Thought this was interesting. All about a rock climbing centre in a deprived area of Memphis. Makes me aware of how much I take for granted having easy access to both the outdoors and indoor walls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_MhNqekbU&ab_channel=BlackDiamondEquipment
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Enjoyed that a lot.
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really good!
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Love this... 'We're not for profit we're for people' :clap2:
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United We Climb are conducting a survey around racism in climbing.
Hope this is OK to post a link here?
https://unitedweclimb.com/blog/
(Full disclosure: I didn’t write the survey but helped them put it online)
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I’m pretty sure it’s there by error and they will realise at some point, but for more South Memphis action, the Black Ice film from this year’s Reel Rock is currently here:
https://vimeo.com/492553184
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Was just about to post a link to the same clip via EPIC TV, better from source though..
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My wife thought this (https://twitter.com/anjgoswami/status/1697568265462018514/photo/1) was an interesting parallel to the racist route names debate that came up a few years ago. It seems like the natural history sciences are having their own dilemma about what to do with species names that honour known racists, or in the worst cases just use racist terms. Species names change all the time as their relationship to other species is better understood. But usually this happens in a systematic manner. The oldest names taking precedent. But it seems there is some resistance to changing names to remove racist language in order to maintain stability.