UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: tomtom on May 15, 2020, 09:16:15 am
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Our primary school (ours is in nursery there) has just sent us the following - wondered what others have heard (or not) and whether you'd send yours back. We're a bit torn. It would be great for him to see his friends again - and make the gap (time) between now and when he starts reception in Sept less of a gulf (so he remembers what happens!). But obviously concerned for him and ourselves WRT the virus...
We hope to have Year 6 children back in school from June 1st. We are endeavouring to reduce the residual risk of infection spreading but we know that we cannot eliminate it completely. Measures we will take will include - but are not limited to - the following:
Initially we will halve the year group and have them attending alternate weeks, Monday to Thursday only. We will send timings in due course and will work around key worker childcare provision so that the numbers of people arriving on site at any one time are kept low.
Teachers will be working on Fridays but will use the time for class planning, preparation and assessment and also to plan home learning and keep in touch with children whose parents do not wish them to return.
The children will be taught in groups of no more than 15 as per the government's own advice. They will remain in the same room for all lessons, with the same teacher, all week. In effect this creates a restricted 'bubble' and if one of the group were to contract coronavirus, all members of that same group would be required to self-isolate for 14 days.
Children will have a personal supply of stationery so that they don't have to share resources with others.
Classrooms and toilet areas will be cleaned each lunchtime in readiness for the afternoon session, and again at the end of each day when children and staff have left.
Classrooms will have plentiful supplies of sanitiser and tissues.
Lunchtimes will be staggered and we will ask children to observe social distancing when queuing, using markers on the floor.
Ensuring social distancing during playtimes will be more difficult but we will remind children about it at regular intervals. However, we cannot guarantee that they won't come into closer contact with each other whilst playing.
Parents/carers will not be able to enter the school site to reduce the amount of adult to adult contact.
We will monitor how all this works and may in due course open in a similar way for Year 1.
We are desperate to have the children back in school but their return needs to be managed as safely as possible and I believe that a staged approach to the task is needed.
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Is it an academy TT?
This will create a lot of discussion between unions and gov before June 1, as recommended practice regarding safety in schools does not appear to be the same as in similarly busy contexts.
This seems an environment where the virus will be easily transmitted, as likelihood of infection is exposure plus time:
The children will be taught in groups of no more than 15 as per the government's own advice. They will remain in the same room for all lessons, with the same teacher, all week. In effect this creates a restricted 'bubble' and if one of the group were to contract coronavirus, all members of that same group would be required to self-isolate for 14 days.
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That seems a pragmatic response. The government badly need to show their working on this though. It seems to me that social distancing isn't going to be very effective when people are in the same room for the whole day.
I was quite lucky in my last school to be teaching in a new building with relatively large classrooms. Even in those it wouldn't have been possible to have 15 pupils and a teacher and maintain 2m distance. Primary schools often have a slightly more open layout which might make that easier. Does it really matter though?
I think it's going to be a very difficult shift from telling the public that they should all be keeping their distance, to telling them that actually some limited contact is ok. People like to deal in absolutes and most won't want to recognise that contact with the same dozen or so people, maintaining distancing whenever practical actually might be relatively low risk for most and limit transmission at a population level.
I suspect a large number of parents simply won't send the kids back until the Autumn.
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Ours is in year 1 and we have had the same letter. Personally I think it is good . He needs to go back to socialise and meet friends etc. Home schooling him is good for his actual learning but not so great for learning to get along with other kids etc. Waiting till September just seems to long to me for children of that age to wait. Understand that others may feel differently and I think some from his class may not get sent back by parents.
In terms of teachers I have a lot of sympathy and few answers.
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Our primary academy trust (a CoE backed trust) sent a survey instead.
Question one was “would you let your children return, if we did open?”
(Our two youngest are year six).
We said no.
We’ll just pull them and home school.
Apparently, this was the large majority position by respondents.
One of the Secondary schools, hasn’t issued anything to us yet, but N⁰ 2 is year eight, so not likely to be asked back this academic year.
N⁰1, the Grammar girl, has had superb on line tuition from her school. She’s a year 10, but was entered for Statistics this season (so they can squeeze in an extra GCSE for the top set kids), which will be issued on prior performance/mock result (she got an 8 in the mock). Her school have intimated that they are taking the face-to-face instruction to mean virtual classroom and not a return to the school building. At the moment they’re using Google classroom. It’s live and the teachers are contactable during lessons by pm or a class wide message. They’ve been in regular contact with me too. Two or three times a week, I get reports on progress, suggestions for anything that’s causing confusion, etc. Plenty of “Your child submitted an excellent piece of work for x,y & z” .
We chatted, at appropriate distance, to the neighbours last night. Their eldest is at the girls Grammar, y10 (mine is in the Spires, which is mixed. Both coed and ability (they have a selective Grammar and non-selective, housed on the same campus). It sounds like that school has a similar set up to Spires (their youngest is y8 at Spires, so they’re clear on that).
But, they were equally adamant that they will not let them return. He’s a “one man band” company director (advertising) and she’s a civil servant (working from home). They’d rather take the hit, financially, of him not resuming, than send their kids to school. Especially in the light of their current system working so well.
Actually, I meant to say, that your financial position is going to play into your decision here.
We, and the neighbours, might take a hit by not sending the kids back, but we can take that hit. Plenty of people won’t be able to, if they have to return to work, outside their home.
Also, socialisation isn’t so bad when you have four kids. Plus, the amount of time they spend on WhatsApp video calls to their mates, the amount of time they spend playing online (they have a FIFA league going on the PS4 with their FB academy team mates. The Year six kids, collaborated to make a cool video https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A4I4ZMJWHR4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A4I4ZMJWHR4) between them, for instance).
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It's very unlikely well be sending our kids back, for what will be a maximum if a month (Nursery, Y2 and Y4). I can't imagine there will be any effective distancing and we're able to work from home etc.
This is not about the kids ( not a single mention of education in the government guidelines) or health, but about the economy and childcare and getting people into work. Giving schools the same notice as the general population shows the contempt they have for the education system. Another failure from our illustrious leaders, if it even happens
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We are in the "not sure what to do" category. My eldest (Yr 2) really wants to get back to school and to see her friends, she really doesn't like zoom/facetime and is missing real face to face contact. The youngest (Nursery) is "the issue" as we had a shielding letter for her due to her un diagnosed respiratory issue. On the face of it, we shouldn't send her in, but in reality, the biggest infection risk is her mum/my wife, not other kids, and having spoken to her consultant, the kids in ICU for Covid at the moment are all "healthy", i.e. no underlying health issues so there is no reason why she would be more at risk then my eldest and the numbers are very small and the mortality rate/long term issues/complications rate is vanishingly small.
I feel for the teachers. The school have been great through all this and their communications have been spot on.
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It seems to me that social distancing isn't going to be very effective when people are in the same room for the whole day.
I was quite lucky in my last school to be teaching in a new building with relatively large classrooms. Even in those it wouldn't have been possible to have 15 pupils and a teacher and maintain 2m distance.
Agreed. I think there is a danger of focusing on the rule rather than the mechanism. 2m rules work well outside where spittle falls to ground and freely moving air disperses aerosols. Aerosols from others' breath will circulate in a confined space. In a very big space for a short duration, you'd maybe not inhale much from an asymptomatic carrier. In a smaller space such as a classroom, confined for durations of >5 hours a day, I suspect the risk of infection would be very high indeed. I can see some small mitigation from opening doors and windows, but not enough to render it safe. And remember, no PPE.
My Y5 daughter is desperate to go back to school, perhaps the gov will detail the logistics of making this safe in due course. Have not seen it yet. Until/unless they do, can't see Joe Anderson backing down and letting Liverpool LA schools reopen.
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Giving schools the same notice as the general population shows the contempt they have for the education system.
I checked my cynicism on saying this, but it's true. There appears to have been limited or no involvement of schools, school leaders and teachers in determining what reopening will actually look like and what alternatives might work. Every time a minister or MP says something about schools it seems that they've never actually been in a state school, let alone have any understanding of how they function or how the completely inadequate funding affects day to day schooling. This is very much about childcare and not education.
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MrJ - yes its an academy. A small chain (of convenience?) of three primaries (one of which is in Hull (shrugs) and the best performing in the city!)...
OMM - there was a simple survey (would you send your kid back yes/no) at the end of the email...
I think alot depends on how its structured... Our (only) child is in Nursery there which is large (80-90 kids) split into 4 groups - that normally had semi structured time in their groups but can also roam around - go outside etc.. etc.. Its a separate building and separate play area etc..
If they only invite one group in per day (which might be how I would structure it) or one group per week (or something like that) then I'm fairly comfortable with that... The structure of the building is that in nice weather the wall of bifolds are open and the outdoors is as much a part as the classroom.
Maybe its more important for ours to get some socialising in (only child) as the poor think has only had his parents to play with for 8 weeks. Which he's OK with - but I wish he could have a more diverse set of influences. Not really worried about him missing out on learning skills (he's not yet 4 - and decent with numbers and letters) at the moment. More a social/for his sanity thing.
Final point - the letter said 'until september' implying this could carry on all summer...
Final final point - much sympathy for teachers and their managers/headteachers trying to figure out how to walk this tightrope... with (I suspect) fuck all consultation or support.
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It's very unlikely well be sending our kids back, for what will be a maximum if a month (Nursery, Y2 and Y4). I can't imagine there will be any effective distancing and we're able to work from home etc.
This is not about the kids ( not a single mention of education in the government guidelines) or health, but about the economy and childcare and getting people into work. Giving schools the same notice as the general population shows the contempt they have for the education system. Another failure from our illustrious leaders, if it even happens
I am no fan of our current government but not sure this is a fair interpretation. Really don’t think they could have given schools more notice than anyone else (the information would just have been quickly spread to the media etc). In terms of is it for education or for childcare I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. For us we have one child and could keep going at home but I think it is bad for him socially. In terms of childcare yes it helps us but isn’t the critical issue here. However I think it is easy to chat about this and criticize the government when financially you are not up against the wall (we are not) and I certainly would not be judging anyone whose primary motivation for returning their kids to school was so that they could work!
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Why isnt the policy being implemented locally? based on local R values?
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Something from a friend, who’s partner is a child minder:
“Childminders have been allowed to work throughout - but only for Key Workers. That was relaxed as of Wednesday. The local council has basically been told to make sure providers are following best practice - meaning every district has different, and often conflicting, rules in place. L*** would be able to answer better than me, but most of it is now ultimately up to the providers to figure out how to work with a huge list of 'try to do this' guidelines.
For example, Minded children are supposed to not be in areas of the home that family members may use. This is absolutely impossible, yet is also promoted as the 'best practice'.
The hilarious thing is that L*** would have to do the school run (for minded children). I'll be back at work next month. So, L*** will be caring for two of ours who are not going back, in order to drop one off. She will also potentially be caring for several children as a child-minder. So, sending just one back puts us all at risk from the school, and the school at risk from minded children. Not only that: it's impossible to social distance toddlers unless you restrain them. Not only that: you're not supposed to have children in multiple settings because it's too high risk, according to educational guidelines and local council ruling.
A***** will not go back until September.
The advice is fractured, self defeating, and confusing.”
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Really don’t think they could have given schools more notice than anyone else (the information would just have been quickly spread to the media etc).
You believe that if the gov spoke to headteachers and unions they would have instantly shared this with press. Why?
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Really don’t think they could have given schools more notice than anyone else (the information would just have been quickly spread to the media etc).
You believe that if the gov spoke to headteachers and unions they would have instantly shared this with press. Why?
More to the point, why wasn’t this discussed with representatives of the headteachers and unions, prior to implementation?
I certainly haven’t heard that any discussion with “experts” took place, has anyone else?
There must be professional bodies in the education sector, beyond unions, that should have been consulted? Were they?
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Really don’t think they could have given schools more notice than anyone else (the information would just have been quickly spread to the media etc).
You believe that if the gov spoke to headteachers and unions they would have instantly shared this with press. Why?
In answer to your question: 100% yes! Possibly not instantly but it would have come out quickly. As to why: just simple human nature and general political gripes against a government that has undervalued and underfunded education for a very long period.
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My girlfriend is a primary school teacher, year 2. Her point of view:
Social distancing is not possible in a classroom with 15 small children and a teacher, parents should be fully aware of this before sending them in.
Many children will not be able to see (let alone play) with their friends due to the 15 child 'bubble'.
Any educational value will be minimal as the majority of time in school will be spent trying to adhere to the web of guidelines, cleaning, washing hands, eating, staggered play times, staggered entry and leaving times.
They won't be able to use any of their usual resources, just a pen and a book.
She's convinced that once parents realise what it will really be like in schools, the majority will choose to keep them at home. She'd love to go back to work (currently working very hard from home, I should add), as long as parents are aware of the reality and the risks. The Government need to own up to the fact that this is not about education and is simply childcare.
Oh, and she "fucking hates Tories".
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Why isnt the policy being implemented locally? based on local R values?
Agree. An intelligent response would involve local controls being exerted in response to the local situation, and limits on travel.
My wife has just been on the phone to her head. Sounds like they'll following the Danish controls (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52550470), limiting class sizes to 10, alternating which groups are in and further dividing classes into social groups. And no compulsory attendance.
Our son is seven, we've got a tiny garden and we're really noticing the lack of social contact. He can't concentrate and is developing tics which is quite worrying.
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Not heard anything, but then I'm in Scotland so we aren't expecting any return to school until mid August after the summer holidays.
My first question would be are they separating the children of key workers ( who are much more likely to be infected) from the other children.
Obviously I'm worried about my kids catching the virus at school and infecting my wife and I, but does anyone reasonably believe that apart from those vulnerable people "shielded" the English government is not planning for us all to become infected now that the nightingale hospitals have been built, just at a rate at which the NHS is able to support the sickest? The virus is in the general population and without extending the "hard" lockdown for months we are now in the survival phase.
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Personally, I am very keen for children to be back in school. The extent to which the administration is motivated by parental childcare needs or children's needs seems irrelevant to me; it is just important that children get into schools to socialise and learn. The problem is that this has to be done safely, both out of decency - you want your child not to come to harm at school- and legally - there are duties of care to children and school staff regulated by law.
Currently we don't seem to have an effective way to do this.
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Our eldest turns three next week (I used to think that a 2 year old child was the most fun thing to be around, but watching her personality develop makes me think that a 3 year old might be even more fun!) and nursery have asked us "what are our concerns?". Which is kind of a pointless question - what do you think our concerns are?!
Social distancing children of this age is not going to work. And I don't think it would be very helpful for the staff to be wearing PPE! She was going to nursery for two days a week while Daisy is on maternity leave, and she seems to have coped quite well with not mixing with children her own age. I've not noticed anything like what JB describes, but there may be social issues that are developing which only become apparent when she meets children of her own age again. That's been my biggest concern for her from the outset.
Basically, I'm not sure what to do. So far I feel as though I've reduced my chance of contracting it to almost nil, with the biggest risk being the three trips to the supermarket I've made. If she goes back to nursery she will catch anything that the other children bring in and she will then transfer it to us. It's an act of faith - maybe send her in on one day a week and hope that she doesn't bring it home. Are the benefits to her worth the additional risk? Given the scenes that my wife has observed while taking the kids for walks over the past few days (families picnicking together at close quarters in parks, mums meeting up with other mums to take the kids for a walk together etc etc) there's no way that we can make the assumption that other parents are being just as careful as us.
Edit: just talking to Daisy about this. Her preference would be that we organise a playdate once a week with the other two families in our NCT group - which might become partially possible if the social bubble thing comes in.
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Really don’t think they could have given schools more notice than anyone else (the information would just have been quickly spread to the media etc).
You believe that if the gov spoke to headteachers and unions they would have instantly shared this with press. Why?
More to the point, why wasn’t this discussed with representatives of the headteachers and unions, prior to implementation?
I certainly haven’t heard that any discussion with “experts” took place, has anyone else?
There must be professional bodies in the education sector, beyond unions, that should have been consulted? Were they?
Were representatives from business groups involved in the guidance and restart dates for businesses? If so, then I don’t see why schools shouldn’t have been paid the same courtesy.
If not, then have the govt just ploughed ahead with all these changes without consulting anyone?
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Most Golf courses seemed to know they wre going to open the week before!!!
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One control measure conspicuous by its absence is testing.
Surely if we can doo 100k tests daily, it would take <50 days to test the entire primary population.
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Not heard anything, but then I'm in Scotland so we aren't expecting any return to school until mid August after the summer holidays.
I'm the same. School holidays start 3rd July (For Aberdeenshire at least) so a week or two earlier than England, which makes me think they may stretch it out, especially with "recorded cases" in Grampian rising faster than rest of Scotland.
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Just received this from daughter's school:
Our ambition is to bring all primary year groups back to school before the summer holidays, for a month if feasible, though this will be kept under review.
which is at odds with the message a few days ago which said they were reviewing how they could bring back YR, 1 & 6 while also saying notinsomanywords they didn't think it was a good idea.
Should have been SATS this week, after that Y6 would normaly be a downhill ride of fun stuff with a bit of token learning. Really not sure what the point in them going back would be at this stage.
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Would have thought that transition / familiarisation days for Y6/P7 to their new schools would be infinitely more useful.
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French nurseries and primary schools re-opened this week with limited class sizes, social distancing, staggered/alternating group days/weeks etc.
This image, taken by a local journalist at a pre-school in Tourcoing (a town in NE France near the Belgian border), inevitably went viral - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXzdVSkWkAAR6jJ?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXzdVSkWkAAR6jJ?format=jpg&name=large).
I'm sure most people have seen it but I still personally find it heartbreaking, disturbing, distressing and deeply sad. If this is now 'school' then how much damage will it be doing? Will children will be more traumatised to resume school in such conditions rather than stay at home? Or is that just the parent in me feeling emotionally very queasy and overly discounting children's capacity to adapt?
Apologies for this stream of open-ended consciousness. These feeling & questions are as much posed to myself as they are to the readers and posters on this thread.
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Liverpool Schools Dept have just sent a letter out saying they will not be opening schools on the 1st June and will be leaving when to open decisions to individual headteachers.
This was pre-empted yesterday by old Chippy Tits (https://twitter.com/mayor_anderson/status/1260545280308633600?s=20) declaring that Liverpool would be resisting opening any schools...
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Given the studies suggesting children are less likely to transmit the virus and that schools are a negligble risk for community transmission I have no qualms about sending our 5 year old back. My only concern would be if they followed the union official's (i think) suggestion that children should be sprayed with disinfectant every day before entering the school!
Our view is based on the socialisation issue which we think is massively important for the younger kids. Similarly we'll send our 3 year old back to pre-school one day a week first chance we get. We are very fortunate Lizzy doesn't work so we don't have an economic push to get them back to school full time.
A straw poll among parents we know suggests less than half will send the children back before September, with a surprising number holding out for not until there's a vaccine!
I think there is also a disociation of the risk from coronavirus vs the other risks facing at risk children, who have more or less vanished from the system (i think ~1% have continued to attend school), though unfortunately parents of these are probably among the least likely to send them back early.
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My daughter's in Y6. They aren't getting that much tbh from the school re homeschooling, certainly nothing like virtual lessons and pretty much no contact from teachers apart from a couple of video messages. That said I've no real concern for her academically as they'd just have been revising for, then taking SATS, and then having fun for the final 6 weeks.
However. She's 11 today, coping really well with the idea of azoom party this eve, and we dropped party bags round her mates houses this afternoon, but it's clearly really hard for her not to have that time with her friends - she's got a really tight group and most of them will be heading to different secondarys in the autumn, she'd be heartbroken if they don't get to go back before the end of the year. I'm pretty sure I'll let her go back if school reopens (as a key worker she has a place anyway but we've not taken it up as we can manage and don't want to increase the pressure on the school.)
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Agree about socialisation and relative risk Chrisj.
Quick (genuine) question. You say there are
studies suggesting children are less likely to transmit the virus and that schools are a negligble risk for community transmission
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Robust studies? Could you give links/ point to where I can find them?
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Oh, and she "fucking hates Tories".
My therapist told me I should write letters to all the Tories I hate and then burn them. I've done that but now I'm not sure what to do with all the letters.
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re children - I'm asking because I know there has been some discussion but have not heard of any strong evidence that kids get/ transmit CV19 very differently to adults. This article seems to concur
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0
edit waffle removed
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re children - I'm asking because I know there has been some discussion but have not heard of any strong evidence that kids get/ transmit CV19 very differently to adults. This article seems to concur
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0
edit waffle removed
If that’s based on the German research saying they have the same virus loading profiles then yes - Swiss have been daft letting grandparents see children...
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Liverpool Schools Dept have just sent a letter out saying they will not be opening schools on the 1st June and will be leaving when to open decisions to individual headteachers.
This was pre-empted yesterday by old Chippy Tits (https://twitter.com/mayor_anderson/status/1260545280308633600?s=20) declaring that Liverpool would be resisting opening any schools...
Liverpool leading the pack again ;)
In all seriousness, I would am very concerned that teachers are not getting any PPE at the moment. The virus would appear less dangerous to the young (apart from the worrying Kawasaki disease links), but it's the staff who are more at risk. I'm lucky in that I'm healthy, but many of my colleagues are not as fit, some have underlying health issues (COPD, asthma, immune system issues etc) and being in a room with potential super spreaders is incredibly concerning.
From my point of view, teachers would appear to be lined up as cannon fodder for the economy.
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Agree about socialisation and relative risk Chrisj.
Quick (genuine) question. You say there are
studies suggesting children are less likely to transmit the virus and that schools are a negligble risk for community transmission
.
Robust studies? Could you give links/ point to where I can find them?
Not much that's at all robust, all gleaned from mention in various newspapers/websites. There was one from Singapore near the start of it all that suggested a negligible increase in risk with schools open, tracing a single child with the virus (ithink he got it in a chalet in the French Alps) who didn't transmit it to 170 odd known contacts while passing on flu and colds, something else that suggested a 2% increase in transmission if schools were kept open. I also think some conclusions from Iceland's widespread testing suggested there's not much concern.
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Thanks. I found that Nature article after I posted to you, there’s an overview of various studies. Anything published in Nature is reliable. Summary of summaries seem to me that there is some indication that kids are less infectious but there is insufficient evidence to prove it and a lot of scepticism amongst scientists about this.
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My personal take on it is that schools reopening means that children are highly likely to catch Covid, no matter what control measures are put in place, largely because classrooms are confined spaces where social distancing will mean nothing after hours sat breathing the same air. Forest schools excepted, of course.
The question is, are you bothered? Or do you reason that infection carries minimal risk to preteens so why worry? And how concerned are you that down the chain of transmission from the classroom is an ICU full of oldies on ventilators?
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Given the studies suggesting children are less likely to transmit the virus and that schools are a negligble risk for community transmission I have no qualms about sending our 5 year old back. My only concern would be if they followed the union official's (i think) suggestion that children should be sprayed with disinfectant every day before entering the school!
Our view is based on the socialisation issue which we think is massively important for the younger kids. Similarly we'll send our 3 year old back to pre-school one day a week first chance we get. We are very fortunate Lizzy doesn't work so we don't have an economic push to get them back to school full time.
A straw poll among parents we know suggests less than half will send the children back before September, with a surprising number holding out for not until there's a vaccine!
I think there is also a disociation of the risk from coronavirus vs the other risks facing at risk children, who have more or less vanished from the system (i think ~1% have continued to attend school), though unfortunately parents of these are probably among the least likely to send them back early.
This assumption, that children are less likely to be infective, is wrong.
Please note point 5 of the main points from the ONS data released this week.
Children are infected and test positive at the same proportions to every other age group. They just seem to be less liable to severe illness.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/england14may2020 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/england14may2020)
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Read the summary from Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0)
Edit: be helpful if ONS broke age group down more finely than 2-19.
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My post should have read “infected” rather than “infective”. Different connotation.
The ONS data is from the study that Mrs OMM took part in last week.
(She tested negative).
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Anything published in Nature is reliable.
Really? https://retractionwatch.com/category/by-journal/nature-retractions/
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Fair point. System working as it should do though, would you say?
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Well, the news services are full of this tonight, apparently another study supports or even exceeds the ONS data.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-children-in-england-more-likely-to-be-infected-with-covid-19-than-any-other-age-group-study-warns-11988784 (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-children-in-england-more-likely-to-be-infected-with-covid-19-than-any-other-age-group-study-warns-11988784)
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Fair point. System working as it should do though, would you say?
Yep, agreed. And I do agree that articles in Nature are generally very reliable. I think pedantry got the better of me :)
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Problem is - no one is waiting for the science yet. Which can take time.
It’s very seductive to think they because children are more likely to be asymptomatic they are not spreading the virus as much. But is there much science to show that - aside from correlative rather than causative studies...
Today we’ve had headlines saying only 29 people per day are infected in London - yet another 3.5k new cases across the UK.
Nature Group isn’t perfect - but at least it’s peer reviewed - whereas the many preprint studies being bounded about are not - yet (it’s common to dump something in a preprint server when you submit it to high impact journals anyway). I’d rather listen to them than Donald Trump....
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I think pedantry got the better of me :)
A kindred spirit, clearly :)
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British Medical Association weighing in:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/bma-backs-teaching-unions-in-opposing-reopening-of-schools
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An interesting thread that mirrors a lot of conversations we're having at home and within the class parents' WhatsApp group.
It seems difficult for any of the studies to be conclusive at the moment as the data is limited in terms of its longevity. The ONS stats I don't find helpful as the age bracket is so large. This one seems to back up the one from Nature:
https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/05/05/archdischild-2020-319474
The problem for me is shifting mindset. For 8 weeks I've literally had the fear of death every time I leave the house - sticking to strict rules to stay safe, not seeing family, wiping EVERYTHING that come through the door. And now, suddenly, without any understandable, clear justification we're being told to expose those in our families who we would normally be most protective of.
Our oldest is 5 and in reception. The school have been amazing and we've been getting lots of lessons, learning ideas and contact from his teachers on a daily basis as well as lots of communication from the head. This week they have been diplomatic but very honest about the realities of what the school environment will look like if they do return.
We're not concerned about his academic learning, we are concerned about his social learning and the importance of having other influences on him. He responds very differently to a teacher asking him to do things than he does to me. He is obviously really missing the kind of play that only another 5 year old can give him.
There's been a marked change in his behaviour this last week, he's become really clingy (like has to come with me to the toilet clingy) and he's gone from being really keen to do the lessons to not wanting to engage at all and having huge meltdowns. Not sure if he's picking up on our anxiety, if he's picked up on the news that the school's might be opening or if it's just his time.
We have come to the conclusion that we have to learn to live with the virus and reasoned that we are lucky, the risk of serious illness/complications should we catch it are low so we will send him in. What I am worried about is how he will react to the change in routine/regime in school, he loves his teacher but there's a good chance he won't be with her or in his own classroom which as a very attached little boy he may find very difficult. He's also someone who takes rules to heart so if he's told to keep his distance but others aren't I can envisage him getting very upset about this.
This all may be a moot point as he has hydronephrosis which I've read this week may be cause for concern so I'm going to be calling his consultant on Monday...
Sorry, very long and rambling, there's a lot of thoughts going round in my head!
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Hi Battery - our near 4yo had a week like that last week (back to boob grabbing wherever possible too..) and he’s more or less back to normal now. Ours is obvs at a different stage of learning to yours but he has love numbers one week - hates them the next and repeat... same with letters/phonetics.
For us the plus would be the social aspect (for him). Poor mite only having me and his mum to play with all that tome.
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Our eldest turns three next week (I used to think that a 2 year old child was the most fun thing to be around, but watching her personality develop makes me think that a 3 year old might be even more fun!) and nursery have asked us "what are our concerns?". Which is kind of a pointless question - what do you think our concerns are?!
Social distancing children of this age is not going to work. And I don't think it would be very helpful for the staff to be wearing PPE! She was going to nursery for two days a week while Daisy is on maternity leave, and she seems to have coped quite well with not mixing with children her own age. I've not noticed anything like what JB describes, but there may be social issues that are developing which only become apparent when she meets children of her own age again. That's been my biggest concern for her from the outset.
Basically, I'm not sure what to do. So far I feel as though I've reduced my chance of contracting it to almost nil, with the biggest risk being the three trips to the supermarket I've made. If she goes back to nursery she will catch anything that the other children bring in and she will then transfer it to us. It's an act of faith - maybe send her in on one day a week and hope that she doesn't bring it home. Are the benefits to her worth the additional risk? Given the scenes that my wife has observed while taking the kids for walks over the past few days (families picnicking together at close quarters in parks, mums meeting up with other mums to take the kids for a walk together etc etc) there's no way that we can make the assumption that other parents are being just as careful as us.
Edit: just talking to Daisy about this. Her preference would be that we organise a playdate once a week with the other two families in our NCT group - which might become partially possible if the social bubble thing comes in.
Will, in my experience it gets more and more fun the older they get, alongside the increasing frustrations!
Interesting point about PPE, in the original guidance notes my wife saw (she's a teacher) if a pupil started to show symptoms theyd have to isolate the kid alone in a room, with an open window, don appropriate PPE before any further interaction to await collection
I find it hard to think of a more dystopian way to traumatise a 5 year old than someone bursting in all masked up...
I think this guidance had changed now.
Apparently the DFE weren't even consulted before the decision was taken which gives me no confidence in our current government
EDIT: the scientific advisor for the DFE wasn't consulted
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Ironic that an administration wedded to testing kids to the point of introducing baseline tests (https://www.parentkind.org.uk/Parents/Reception-baseline-assessment-RBA?gclid=Cj0KCQjwnv71BRCOARIsAIkxW9Gxo-9NcapeXYlbbUsuo20RKpIBCsviqzVgy3RqcEvv9NRsDrfKaj4aAv5aEALw_wcB) in reception this autumn does not, so far, seem to have the same approach to testing pupils for Covid.
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My personal take on it is that schools reopening means that children are highly likely to catch Covid, no matter what control measures are put in place, largely because classrooms are confined spaces where social distancing will mean nothing after hours sat breathing the same air. Forest schools excepted, of course.
The question is, are you bothered? Or do you reason that infection carries minimal risk to preteens so why worry? And how concerned are you that down the chain of transmission from the classroom is an ICU full of oldies on ventilators?
My view is we will have to learn as a society to live with the virus, it will most likely be around for a long time. The vulnerable need to be shielded but the rest of society where risk is low need to start to find how close to a normal life we can return to. I also think there is a clamour and expectation to 100% shield everyone from the virus which is not practical and there are sections of society where greater damage is being caused by restrictions. For teachers i think there will need to be routine testing and then most likely 2-3 week localised shutdowns of schools if/when there are flare-ups. I don't think the situation will be any different in September so why wait.
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@Chris - the very real reason to wait (maybe until September - maybe later) is that levels of new cases are still nationally high.. so this track/trace/isolate lockdown schools/classes etc.. is feasible if the overall number of cases is low (as per many Scandinavian countries) but for us - at the moment not. especially as we presently have zero - none - nada track and trace in operation. To TBH it seems really premature...
We may well have to learn to live with the virus - at least until we get a vaccine (if) - and probably a bit after that too. BUT - before we learn to live with it we need to know how it transmits - whether children are carriers in a less or greater way than adults - FFS - we even need to know how many cases there are or have been. All of which we don’t know!
So making decisions like The school one are really using ‘professional best judgement’ AKA guessing. Or (as some have suggested) being made for economic rather than health reasons.
That’s a very different argument - that’s not the one being presented by the government.
Finally - lets face it - to date this Government have so far made some pretty fucking terrible decisions. Including (a) not locking down soon enough (b) stopping contact tracing/scaling back tracing (c) the care home situation.
So personally - I have no faith in this being a well thought out or evidence based decision.
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I understand your argument, but, data seems to be emerging (see remus' link in the other thread, and i think also the icelandic testing) that suggests unless you are in certain at risk groups, the hazard really is pretty low. To take the luxury of waiting until you have all the data and certainty means there will be much deeper and longer lasting deprivation and economic, mental and other damage to many sections of society, who are not necessarily at great risk from the virus. Unfortunately, no matter what we do, the at risk groups are going to have to shelter for the foreseeable future, but it is not unreasonable for the rest of society to take baby steps towards finding the new normal.
I think the bubble system they have come up with for now is a reasonable starting point. It will obviously be closely monitored and no doubt evolve over time. Better to start with a few groups and limited numbers (given it seems less than half of parents in chosen year groups will send their children back in June) than wait till September and try to integrate everyone to start a new school year with an untested system.
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Sorry Chris - but I think you’re on another planet from me on this.
The ‘hazard is low unless you are in certain risk groups’ argument is the same used to justify delaying the lockdown in mid March. Look where that got us. 50k and counting. Sorry - but the argument you present comes across very much as ‘I’m alright jack’.
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We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.
Off topic I'm flying to Norway for work on Monday, to join a boat and live in close confines with 100-odd other folk i don't know from various countries. Testing is effectively a remote thermometer at the gangway and a questionnaire beforehand asking if i've got a cough. With the lack of connections i have three flights and two hotel stays to get there where before it would have been a direct single flight. I'll then have to quarantine again when i come home. I'm not overly enamoured but it's work and you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Do I think sending my daughter to school to be taught in an unchanging group of 12 with a single teacher is an unreasonable risk, no. YMMV.
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We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.
Off topic I'm flying to Norway for work on Monday, to join a boat and live in close confines with 100-odd other folk i don't know from various countries. Testing is effectively a remote thermometer at the gangway and a questionnaire beforehand asking if i've got a cough. With the lack of connections i have three flights and two hotel stays to get there where before it would have been a direct single flight. I'll then have to quarantine again when i come home. I'm not overly enamoured but it's work and you do what you have to do to pay the bills. Do I think sending my daughter to school to be taught in an unchanging group of 12 with a single teacher is an unreasonable risk, no. YMMV.
Really?
I can’t join the ship I was due to join in April (actually our whole contract is on hold, so 12 of us are twiddling thumbs). I have a good mate who has been stuck on a Dive support, off Saudi, since the beginning of March, though he was supposed to finally get off over the weekend.
Another mate is a Super based in Dubai, lives in Austria. He was meant to rotate home in the second week of March, but can’t fly to Austria, only Germany and he says the Aus/Ger border ist Verboten, plus he’d be in isolation for two weeks after getting back and then might not be allowed into Dubai on return.
I’m guessing you’re Offshore?
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Yes, I know of folk who have been kept onboard their vessel working since February, with their reliefs sat at home, who are currently on the promise of a crew change in June. If you have family at home as most will then if must have been challenging mentally to say the least. And for the guys sat at home waiting to go offshore, staff on furlough (presumably based on basic salary, no day rate aspect), contractors on nothing (assuming they are UKB's favourite ltd company NI dodgers), it will have been challenging in a different way.
In my previous contract we had all sorts of fun trying to get as many people as we could home in the mad week in March when all the borders were closing and everytime you looked at options another airline had cancelled their flights.
There are some delayed projects starting up now around the North Sea as travel is becoming possible (if convoluted), not sure what the situation is elsewhere. A lot of projects were put on indefinite hold or cancelled when the oil price plummeted. Travel should get easier as i think the likes of Lufthansa are looking to start up again, but i'm sure as an experience it will be less pleasant. Spending half your time off stuck in the house in quarantine is also not appealing, TBH widespread testing and anti-body testing can't come soon enough for me!
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I did something, possibly, daft.
On the off chance our “delayed” contract, becomes a “canceled” contract, I applied to the RFA last week...
I cast around for some relief work on the Mega yachts, but they’re only taking people already in country, which rules me out here in the UK.
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Things are difficult, I was fully expecting not to pick up any work before next spring so this short project is very welcome. Hopefully I'm wrong and it doesn't get that bad.
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TBH widespread testing and anti-body testing can't come soon enough for me!
This ^ is the way out of the maze. And the way to make schools safe. There’s about 2 m kids in those 3 year groups, if gov 100k+ testing figures are to be believed they could have them all tested before a phased return to classrooms which they would know are safe from day one.
The plan to test symptomatic kids who have been quietly shedding virus for two weeks is pointless. They can just isolate, as at present.
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We have a better picture of who is at risk and how they can be protected so i don't really believe it's the same situation as March. I also don't particularly appreciate you telling me I have an I'm alright jack attitude as i have various friends and relatives in different at risk categories.
Sorry - but the argument you present comes across very much as ‘I’m alright jack’.
As above - I’m not telling you anything. Sorry you were insulted - its not meant as a smite at you.
On the OP, Its putting some people in some tough situations. Talking to our neighbour (before a rather long winded bedtime routine finally finished just now here) - she has year 5 and 6 daughters. Single mum living with her father - who has cancer - can barely walk and is really very vulnerable to this. Her year 6 really wants to go in - but she is utterly torn about what to do.
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Thanks, it's easy for me to go off on one too... Our 5 year old is regressing to be worse than our 3 year old for tantrums this last couple of weeks, which is trying (several of her friends we hear are similar). Kind of desperate to get more social contact for her and Zoom is a help but not enough.
There's going to be a lot of hard choices, i feel for your neighbour and anyone in a similar position.
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I agree with Chris for what it's worth. Proviso that I don't have kids at school!
There seems to be a lot of discussion of when it'll be safe to go back, but it's almost never going to be safe even if there is a vaccine. Yes there are levels of risk and I agree with others that the government have royally screwed up implementing this, and should be looking at different regions. But I can't see things being massively different in 6 months, so they've got to go back sometime?
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But I can't see things being massively different in 6 months,
Really? I’m hoping R will be lower in 6 months, that there will have been good uptake of a tracing app and widespread testing, so that informed decisions on the risk of sending teachers and students to school in different areas can be made from decent information.
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I can't see things being massively different in 6 months
More time for research? Better consensus among the scientific community on transmission risk of kids? Fewer cases (we still have far higher numbers than other countries when they reopened schools)? R not being dangerously close to 1? Time for the govt to actually implement an effective test-track-isolate strategy? Not to mention building a consensus among schools and parents that they’re happy to open again rather than just announcing it with such little consultation?
I think the govt have made a huge mistake (again) in trying to restart the economy and get schools back too early when we’re barely past the first peak and our numbers aren’t reducing nearly as quickly as in other countries. In fact, in some regions they’re still increasing!
I spoke to my brothers in NZ last night and the schools there are only just opening today. That’s despite having only one new case in the last 24hrs. We had almost 3,500 people test positive yday and getting on for 500 deaths. They’re still adopting fairly strict mitigation measures in schools over there too by the sound of it even with such low prevalence of Covid.
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Gove today to Marr:
“The only way ever to ensure that you never catch coronavirus is to stay at home completely. There’s always, always, always in any loosening of these restrictions a risk of people catching the coronavirus.
“The key thing is that we can make these workplaces safe. You can never eliminate risk, but as we know, it is the case that it is exrtremely unlikely that any school is likely to be the source of a Covid outbreak and if, for any reason, there are risks we can take steps to mitigate them.”
The question is, how do 'take steps to mitigate' risk?
Do we plough on impatiently, Trump style, because we are anxious about the impact of the lockdown and just hope we don't begin a second wave which will really hurt the economy and everything else? After all, countries who have got their pandemic really under control seem to be doing it ok so let's have a go too?
Or do we look at the tools at our disposal, get infections and comprehensive testing in order, and do it right?
Is that a tough call? :-\
(I'll ignore the knowing ''that it is exrtremely unlikely that any school is likely to be the source of a Covid outbreak'' because he has not shown evidence - love to see it!)
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My partner is a teacher and has nothing but four letter words for Gove, particularly after his "if you really care about the children you'll go back to school" bullshit this morning.
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My partner is a teacher and has nothing but four letter words for Gove, particularly after his "if you really care about the children you'll go back to school" bullshit this morning.
It’s almost as if Gove/Cummings chose to come back and goad the teachers this morning. Either that or it was a pretty poor choice of minister to put forward for Marr. All the teachers I know hold nothing but contempt for him.
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I wondered whether they decided that teachers can't despise him much more than they did anyway...
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I'm uninformed here, is there evidence for schools being higher risk - of increasing transmission, of catching coronavirus - than other forms of work currently ongoing?
If there is, then it seems fair enough to question re-opening.
If there isn't, then it seems unfair on the large section of society who are back in work not to re-open.
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I'm sure someone informed will be along soon, but common sense tells me that trying to get children, especially primary school age, to stay 2m apart is utterly impossible, both from each other and from their teachers.
So yeah logically assuming children can spread the virus just like other human beings then immediately there's a significant risk. I don't know whether that's the case but again logically I don't see why it wouldn't be?
Also, no one is saying schools shouldn't go back as soon as possible (far as I know). They're saying they should go back when the risk can be controlled, and the argument is that the Government have done bugger all to make that happen.
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I'm uninformed here, is there evidence for schools being higher risk - of increasing transmission, of catching coronavirus - than other forms of work currently ongoing?
Regardless of related risk of different activities I think the whole "Is it fair?" comparison of everything is misguided. Some things won't be "fair" and some things might not be allowed despite being comparatively the same risk, the point is that some interactions need to stop or be limited so ensure the virus doesn't spread uncontrollably. We're still trapped in analysing the individual risk of activities, rather than the collective.
The evidence you want really needs to be the other way round, we need to demonstrate that school openings can be done safely for individual pupils and for virus spread. At the moment that's not clear. What is clear is that social distancing will not be effective in schools. Many pupils will not follow it and within a classroom how far apart you sit may not matter since you're together for a long time.
Obviously in all of this we've got the problem that government messaging has been "keep your distance, it's dangerous" and now needs to move on to say that actually, being in close proximity to a small number of people outside of your household is ok when there's a serious benefit of keeping the economy running or continuing education.
In my view, schools may be able to open safely for a limited number of pupils. Limited both for reasons of reducing the number of contacts and because it will be possible to have smaller classes, staggered breaks and limited movement. There will be pupils and teachers who simply can't attend. We need to see the government's data to back this up though, it's not fair to take it on faith.
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I understand the points, but they still appear to ignore what people are having to do by going back to work.
I've had to put a three man team back to work. They started last Monday. Over the next days and weeks they'll interact with each other and with various age-50-60 site engineers. They'll visit shops. They'll fill up with fuel more than if they weren't at work. The risk to them of catching or transmitting covid19 can't be eliminated.
So what is it about schools that's different to people in taxis, trains, buses, warehouses, power stations, refineries, chemical plants, construction sites, shops, petrol stations, supermarkets, plumbers, cleaners, labourers, scaffolders, electricians, nurses, doctors, etc, etc, and hundreds of other trades that can't avoid human contact?
Genuine question - is there any evidence of increased risk to teachers or parents versus everyone already having to go to work?
If there is, fair enough. If there isn't, why treat them differently?
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You're assuming people agree that going back to work at this stage is the right thing to do, for one thing. I think a lot of people don't.
Secondly, I think the social distancing issue is the main one. It's arguably possible in a very large number of work environments, and the government's instruction to go back to work was heavily predicated on maintaining social distance, whereas children just won't do it.
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But I'm not. I'm not assuming it's the right thing or the wrong thing to do. And for the sake of brevity I'll point out that I'm also NOT assuming that two wrongs make a right. (but if it's wrong to go back to work then why are so many of us doing it)
I'm just pointing out that it's the fact that people ARE going back to work because - unless we're all to be paid to live in some Utopian existence where we have money without having to go to work - we have to go to work to (hopefully!) survive. If this is the fact of the matter and it is, what is the evidence that says teachers should not go back to work, when so many other people apparently should have to?
I understand the point about social distancing and kids. What is the evidence teachers are at higher risk than other workers?
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Not convinced two wrongs to make a right is the smartest way to tackle this tbh. Solidarity and judging facts on their merit might be a better starting point.
Current guidance is that you can only safely meet 1 person, capable of following social distancing rules, from outside your household in the open air.
Logically, this should now be changed to safely meeting up to fifteen people, who are incapable of following the rules, indoors for hours at a time.
To be fair it's early Sunday evening, Boris has still got time...
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But I'm not. I'm not assuming it's the right thing or the wrong thing to do. And for the sake of brevity I'll point out that I'm also NOT assuming that two wrongs make a right. (but if it's wrong to go back to work then why are so many of us doing it)
Current guidance is that you can only safely meet 1 person, capable of following social distancing rules, from outside your household in the open air.
Logically, this should now be changed to safely meeting up to fifteen people, who are incapable of following the rules, indoors for hours at a time.
My people at work can't only meet one person in the open air. Nor will loads of others.
So logically what you're saying is teachers should accept a similar situation as that of a supermarket worker?
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But by the logic of your argument Pete - no one should bother social distancing....
Because If you or your co-workers can’t - why not teachers? Why not everyone else?
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Solidarity and judging facts on their merit might be a better starting point
Did you miss this bit Pete?
Unless you really dig divide and rule Pete, which I am sure you don't, best to analyse the situation from the standpoint 'what is going to get us out of this mess' and then apply that without seeing anyone as expendable.
Alternatively, we could also apply the recent care home model:
You can meet lots of people indoors for extended periods of time, move freely between them and be in close physical, including introducing new members known to be infected into the group at regular intervals. PPE may, or may not, be worn. You may also go into multiple settings, same rules apply.
edit posts crossing
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My people at work can't only meet one person in the open air. Nor will loads of others.
Our current company policy is that any ops that can’t maintain social distancing due to the nature of the work being carried out will wear appropriate PPE. Do you not have something similar in place Pete?
You can’t do this with children.
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At work you should be able to enforce social distancing. If you can't then appropriate PPE should be used and the times where you have to be in close proximity limited. If employees fail to follow the protocol they could be sacked, if the protocol cannot be followed then they could legitimately refuse to work on H&S grounds. Or the company could continue to furlough them.
I'm the same scenario in school it's not clear that pupils could be denied access to their education. In a secondary scenario schools could suspend pupils who consistently fail to follow instructions on good practice. In reality many of those pupils will also be a safeguarding concern, they may need to find alternative arrangements on site (and no doubt be subject to tabloid nonsense about solitary confinement). In primary it won't be possible to enforce that in the same way.
The key difference is that if it is unsafe you don't have to work, in a legal sense. The schools will have to take the pupils, and will be told they must ensure their safety, but that they're not allowed to do that by shutting. They will not be given any extra resources to open safely. They have been told specifically that they cannot wear masks, except with an isolated child displaying symptoms. They have also been told that the classes of 15 should stay together and only have one teacher. That's despite secondary schools only taking exam groups, who will not all do the same subjects and will need specialist teachers.
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Could the schools just introduce a new uniform for the kids such as Star Wars Stormtrooper outfit.
There may be a problem when someone needs a wee though.
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One thing that seems to have been missed - there seems to be a quiet drumbeat of stories of kids picking up a virus related to COVID-19 that looks really nasty.
Sound like still in the "too early to tell" phase but as TT says I am also in the "do I trust this government to make sensible decisions on this?" category.
Also, on a practical note. Not sure about others but if I did want to sent my eldest (Year One) in, a) it's a 5 week term b) it's gonna be hella disruptive and c) school have already said they'll be "teaching" a cut-down curriculum.
So apart from glorified childcare (that thankfully I don't need, as I'm "between jobs" right now) why would I send her in?
School have surveyed , and AFAIK vast majority have said they wouldn't bother even if they did open.
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I mean as apposed to waiting till term ends, she won't be going back till September, by which time you'd hope things would be better in terms of infection rates / vaccine / testing etc etc.
And yes, I am aware of the amount to inherent privilege baked into my situation. In a way we are lucky to be a position where we can keep her away with minimal disruption to us.
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Random list of thoughts in no particular order. Apologies if they are brief and to the point, my resilience is low this evening.
The idea that 4 and 5 year old children are going to socially distance is ridiculous.
Children are very adaptable and the 'new normal' of possibly not being with their friends, their teacher or in their classroom they will I am sure get used to but at what cost? Is it really worth the upset and disruption? Some children will breeze through it, some will not.
How as a school and a parent do you answer the questions about why little Johnny isn't in school but Sammy is?
The evidence of children having and spreading the virus is in its infancy, the risk to families and teachers is.... Well no one knows!
The argument of needing to open for vulnerable children is bullshit as there is no compulsion for anyone to attend from June 1 and vulnerable can attend now, why would they suddenly return in 2 weeks if they aren't already there?
It's hard to think about those whom we would normally consider to be the most vulnerable in our families as not needing protection.
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JR, Teestub, Wil and others.
Wil - We do what we can. We keep team sizes to a minimum and don't intend to change out personnel so it's as a contained bubble as possible. We've told guys they mustn't share works vans. If they absolutely must share a van then we provide masks. But no our workers cannot socially distance for the entire day, it isn't possible. And as self-employed workers nor are they going to be able to justify not working without risking being skint. If you think this is wrong then I wouldn't strongly disagree.
Social distancing at work: the government guidance for construction workers makes it obvious that while social distancing is preferable, where it isn't possible work can go ahead without it:
''Where the social distancing guidelines cannot be followed in full, in relation to a particular activity, businesses should consider whether that activity needs to continue for the business to operate, and if so, take all the mitigating actions possible to reduce the risk of transmission between their staff.'' (the mitigating actions listed do not eliminate close contact nor are many of them practicable for construction-type work)
And
''Finally, if people must work face-to-face for a sustained period with more than a small group of fixed partners, then you will need to assess whether the activity can safely go ahead. No one is obliged to work in an unsafe work environment.''
The implication being that working without social-distancing is acceptable as long as it's a small unchanging group - of a size undefined by the guidance.
And the words are fine. But no employer in my industry is obliged to employ a sub-contractor who doesn't want to work because of covid19. And much of the work in this industry will ignore social distancing to get the work done within client's time and budget expectations.
This point by JR sums up my view:
Unless you really dig divide and rule Pete, which I am sure you don't, best to analyse the situation from the standpoint 'what is going to get us out of this mess' and then apply that without seeing anyone as expendable.
Quite. And if you really believe this statement applies to everyone then you should argue to pull everyone out of work who can't socially distance if you believe social distancing to be vital to welfare. Not just teachers and not just workers with powerful unions.
Or, if you believe it is acceptable for people to be in work without being able to adopt strict social distancing - which is what is really going on in many workplaces including supermarkets, public transport and construction (and is implicitly accepted in the various government workplace guidance documents) - then you should apply that principle to all workers including yourself.
The cautious principle being expressed on this thread is not the principle that's actually in practice in workplaces outside of your bubbles.
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Quite. And if you really believe this statement applies to everyone then you should argue to pull everyone out of work who can't socially distance if you believe social distancing to be vital to welfare. Not just teachers and not just workers with powerful unions.
Or, if you believe it is acceptable for people to be in work without being able to adopt strict social distancing - which is what is really going on in many workplaces including supermarkets, public transport and construction (and is implicitly accepted in the various government workplace guidance documents) - then you should apply that principle to all workers including yourself.
FWIW, I agree. If one thing has been exposed over recent weeks it is that we are not all in it together. There is a split economy between those whose work can take place behind a screen at home and those who have to brave the virus in the workplace. In other words, a class divide, a really stark one.
That deserves its own thread really -fair enough to point this out, but it does not address how to get schools open again. That workplace is a very special one because of the children and people will, rightly, have especially strong feelings about risk in that context. personally, I am all in favour of a return to school (selfish reasons included, I spent 13 hours on a computer today and it's not over yet) but the gov needs to do better with regard to safety, providing evidence and mitigation. Airily saying it's okay won't satisfy many parties.
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Copy and pasted from a tweet - but worth sharing::
Best quote from today’s briefing.... “I can’t imagine a child would ever want to eat something from another child’s lunchbox “
Just going to leave that there.🤦🏻♀️
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This might surprise a few people... or not.
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1262264071132340224?s=21
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This might surprise a few people... or not.
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1262264071132340224?s=21
I'm having a very interesting experience at the moment. I'm working in a care home (I had been doing a few days of supply teaching, but obviously that's dried up). It's not work I've ever done before and more than that it's mostly working with a demographic that I simply don't come into any sustained contact with - white, working class women.
I recognise the characters from classes I teach at school. I feel like I've met them in their teens, as a teacher, but I've not really encountered them in the wild in adulthood. It's shown me just how closeted my middle class, university educated life is and it's been a cultural shock. They take astrology seriously for a start (one woman paid £12 for a single horoscope during a shift last week and complained it wasn't accurate, the pay is less than £10ph). The discussions about schools and risk are very black and white. Overwhelmingly they wouldn't send their kids back yet, although many are using relatively young grandparents to babysit while they work and in many cases both they and their partners have been working the whole time. They don't trust Boris, but at least he's got charisma, the idea of Jeremy Corbyn being in charge during this fills them with horror. Most of them smoke, many of them had children as teenagers, they consider drinking 2 bottles of wine solo in an evening to not be worth raising an eyebrow. They play the lottery religiously. They are surprised that my wife lets me work with a bunch of women.
It makes them sound feckless, but they work hard and they care a lot about what they do and the wellbeing of the residents. The world outside of their family bubble isn't something of concern or interest until it affects them, and for most there's no instinct to think critically about it, they'd rather think in scandal and soundbites. As a teacher I would say they've spent their lives feeling that they're a bit thick and therefore it's not for them to try to understand or influence the wider world.
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Also of note is because contact tracing, which is probably going to be implemented at some point (in Scotland at least) will be very difficult, unless every school going child is given a mobile phone, which they need to carry with them at all times, but not play with in lessons.
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Also of note is because contact tracing, which is probably going to be implemented at some point (in Scotland at least) will be very difficult, unless every school going child is given a mobile phone, which they need to carry with them at all times, but not play with in lessons.
The contact tracing app seems to be further delayed according to recent reports... another project going well...
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In England? Might be different here;
https://www.gov.scot/news/contact-tracing-technology-piloted/
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I'm having a very interesting experience at the moment. I'm working in a care home (I had been doing a few days of supply teaching, but obviously that's dried up).
I’ve just read that supply teachers can be furloughed. Not sure if it applies to you but thought it worth mentioning just in case?
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I’ve just read that supply teachers can be furloughed.
I've actually just had a furlough payment! 🙂 I think it took so long because the rules weren't clear to my agency, but should get a bit of extra cash for a few weeks at least.
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One schools plan for how it will work: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/19/distanced-drop-offs-and-protective-bubbles-englands-new-school-rules
Sounds like a pretty barren experience (esp for reception/yr1). No toys, no games. Each child having their own pencils and stuff (no sharing). Lunch at the desk....
Reading this - I can see how the measures help and maybe will work. But it also makes me wonder whether our boy would benefit from this for 5 weeks or so - or whether it may have a negative effect, giving him a bad - maybe scarey - non social perception of school. Though that may be the way it happens come September.
We're still not decided - and I'm not sure the article helps.
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Apparently Eton isn't opening until September. That doesn't even seem strange any more.
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/05/16/if-eton-isnt-reopening-until-at-least-september-why-the-hurry-to-bring-back-state-schools/
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Just read that Cambridge have said all lectures will be online until Summer 2021. No mention of supervisions though... (that are - the bulk? - of the teaching there)
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Our daughter's primary school gave the impression they were going to open (detailed description of how it would work, survey of parents to see who would attend) but today pulled the plug on the idea. Would be good to know what brought about the abrupt change in heart. Given this it would be helpful if they would take more interest in children unable to attend school than just a weekly sheet of paper with some very simplistic ideas.
On the other hand our 3 year old's pre-school is still at the moment planning to open and has confirmed his days attending.
One thing i read today to throw in to the mix - Iceland studied how the virus spread through their population and couldn't locate a single example of a child infecting their parents.
Also contact tracing study in NSW Australia found of the 9 children and 9 teachers infected who attended school in March and April, just 2 of their ~850 contacts at the schools subsequently developed the illness.
https://coronavirusexplained.ukri.org/en/article/und0008
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Change in government attitude apparently. Now no talk of penalising schools for not opening.
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We've had a risk assessment through from nursery (embedded below for interest) which describes the measures that they'll take. I'm not particularly worried for her physical health, because the chances of her becoming poorly seem to be very low. I am a bit concerned about her transmitting the disease from nursery to home, but I don't think we know what the risk is. I'm concerned for the staff who work there - again, I don't think the risk is fully understood. I'm sceptical about whether the risk assessment will protect the staff (or children if they do transpire to be at risk from the virus in some way).
However my biggest concern is her social development. We've already had to check ourselves this morning when she asked to feed the ducks on the canal and the reply was "I think we'll avoid the canal as it'll be too busy". I don't want her becoming hard wired to be fearful or uncomfortable around crowded places. Among the measures listed in the risk assessment, I'm concerned about what these might look like in practice:
- Children will play in small groups and social distance from other groups.
- 3plus/preschool and Nursery classroom will have footprints where children have to stand while playing at specific activities.
- More tables with less children on each table will be used over meal times
- Floor markings will be provided for group times to help children social distance
The section on PPE is concerning. It doesn't specify what PPE may be necessary. Perhaps it's unreasonable of me, but I don't like the idea of her seeing lots of people wearing masks. God forbid she ever has to wear one herself. I don't know what it is about them but I hate the things (don't worry, I did wear the natty Cath Kidston tea towel one that my wife made when I went round the shops last night, but I didn't enjoy it).
The section on responding to a suspected case is a great cause for concern, depending on how it's actually carried out in practice.
We're in a very fortunate position that my wife is on maternity leave so is able to look after the kids and leave me free to work. We have to weigh up the risks to her development of not playing with any children other than her baby brother against the risks to her development of attending a nursery from a dystopian future. Because visitors are restricted from attending nursery (obviously) we can't see what the measures look like in practice. Neither of us are child behavioural psychologists, so we'll be making this decision with our guts more than anything. I expect the sprog will be staying at home. Hopefully we will soon have more data about the risks of transmission from children and the measures in nurseries/schools can be relaxed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49915588552_a005e95b31_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49914778603_028f07125c_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49915588572_712f8eefc5_b.jpg)
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I have a 4 year old and a 6 year old. For me (and them) it has been difficult being home full time and juggling homework, work and everything else. Both of them wish things could go back to how they were and obviously school is a part of that. My wife and I have struggled with it quite a lot.
But in my view though, opening school back up as some sort of weird social distance with kids experiment before we can even legitimately have friends round for playdates seems ridiculous. It will be ok for her to have contact with 15-20 family bubbles at school before she can play with just her best friends. At that age it's all about having fun and socialising and there is no way that social distancing will be desirable or practically deliverable in a room of 3/4/5/6 year olds anyway. The actual academic content of school is way less important so for me this is a hard pass.
Playdates first. Then school. I cant be the only one who has had this thought.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/18/french-minister-tells-of-risks-of-missing-school-as-more-pupils-return-covid-19
I'm sure you've all read this.
I agree with Murph it's all a bit arse about face, kids have not had much contact with grandparents (beyond a brief conversation from the end of the driveway) or friends (apart from waving from across the road) for over 8 weeks. My daughter is 7 and has a bunch of really close friends, and misses them terribly, but son is 10, with Aspergers and, as far as we know, doesn't communicate much with classmates or have any close friendships and doesn't seem to miss anyone, but is on the "Playground" feed on Teams chatting with other classmates all the time. Maybe it's preferable to doing schoolwork, or maybe the others are desperate for some communication too.
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Quick thought based on Wills and an offline conversation with 3T - is that there’s not much consideration in the debate about the teachers/staff who are likely (according to union polls) very anxious about returning. That is another factor to consider when sending your kids back or not.
Am I alone in thinking the mood music from govt is softening on the schools returning on 1st June? Murmurings from sage of having to have contact tracing up and running first - and no slamming down of that from govt.
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Ditching lectures in person sounds sensible TT; real teaching takes place in tutorials.
There's no way you can say it is safe to return to school when you don't know where the virus is. I feel like a broken record, but the quickest way to get schools back safely is to have test, trace and isolate set up properly. A data harvesting app is not going to do that. As SA Chris pointed out above ^^, it might be difficult to get all UK 5 years olds equipped with smartphones and using them correctly.
Worth reading everything that Devi Sridhar writes imo (Chair of Global Public. Health at Edinburgh Uni). Scientific perspective on how to resume schools asap https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/20/british-schools-science-children-education-testing-tracing
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This morning's more or less had a segment on the reopening of schools featuring David Spiegelhalter - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08dnd81.
In summary the risk to children is almost non existent and the risk to staff and parents aged 20-40 is very small, compatible to the mortality from a week's worth of accidents in the UK as I recall. Personally, from the perspective of the safety of my 20 month old daughter, my and my partner's safety and the safety of the staff < 40 I'd be happy to send her back to nursery. I also think she'd get a lot out of it developmentally. My only concern is if one of us were potentially responsible (directly or indirectly) in transmitting the virus to an elderly or vulnerable person. However, it's not clear to me how such a risk can be quantified.
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Every school must have several members of staff at out school (lunch ladies, classroom assistants and teachers) who are in their 60s or have underlying health issues, how do they intend dealing with that? "At risk" teacher's classes taught remotely, while the rest return? Plagued with issues.
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Every school must have several members of staff at out school (lunch ladies, classroom assistants and teachers) who are in their 60s or have underlying health issues, how do they intend dealing with that? "At risk" teacher's classes taught remotely, while the rest return? Plagued with issues.
That was something I hadn't considered, but became very apparent as our girl's school was trying to put on Keyworker school. A lot of the support staff were in "vulnerable" categories (age and/or health).
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This morning's more or less had a segment on the reopening of schools featuring David Spiegelhalter - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08dnd81.
However, it's not clear to me how such a risk can be quantified.
There are 3 risks, aren't there?
1 to children
2 to staff
3 to the wider community through transmission
They are all very serious. Regarding children, one suggested figure for Kawasaki syndrome was per 1,000 cases. That is a worry if at all accurate when there are approx 5 million primary school children.
The countries resuming school are in a different position to the UK. UK reported deaths yesterday 545. Denmark: 0
Would measuring the prevalence of the virus help?
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It feels with many decisions as if our Govt is looking to keep up with Europe wrt unlockdown... clearly - as the worst affected country in Europe we should be on our own timescale here.
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The countries resuming school are in a different position to the UK. UK reported deaths yesterday 545. Denmark: 0
The data I'm looking at shows last Friday as the only no deaths day so far, with seven over the weekend, one Monday, and three yesterday. But the point stands. Even taking into account population differences the contrast is stark. My daughter went back yesterday (it would have been Monday but she had an unrelated hospital appointment) and whilst not completely unconcerned I do feel confident enough about making the decision.
I think TT's point about the UK government being driven by a desire to try and "keep up" with other European nations probably has some merit. I am so sick of people using the example of one country or another to make an argument about what should happen in their own. If I have to have another argument about why Sweden hasn't been "proven right" ...
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Would measuring the prevalence of the virus help?
What, like some sort of widespread testing system? Nah, can't see that catching on.
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Thanks for correcting Andy.
For 10 May, last date IHME have figures rather than projections, has Denmark on 0.14 and UK on 0.80 per 100k population, projected for today is 0.10 vs 0.55. So maybe 5-6 times greater prevalence of virus in UK. https://covid19.healthdata.org/denmark
Chris, quite.
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It feels with many decisions as if our Govt is looking to keep up with Europe wrt unlockdown... clearly - as the worst affected country in Europe we should be on our own timescale here.
I've been trying to work out recently whether we are now actually as far behind counties Ike France, Italy and Spain as it would seem at first glance.
The daily announced deaths still spike up to high numbers, especially on. Monday, but if you look at hospital figures by day of death, the trend is now extremely positive:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/
It's not completely clear to me which set of figures is more comparable to those issued by those other countries. From looking at some of the things those countries are now starting to open up (including bars and restaurants in some limited cases) I actually think the UK plan now looks fairly modest.
If anyone knows how comparable the international figures for those countries are (eg day of death vs day of reporting) I'd be really interested. Care home deaths obviously excluded in the data linked above, but from the last ONS dataset we know they are also on a clear downward trend.
On the schools topic, I had an interesting anecdote from my brother yesterday in London. In his school, of the 60 kids in year 6 (the year he teaches), 46 sets of parents have already confirmed their kids will restart on 1st June and only 5 sets of parents have so far said no. I was surprised that many wanted to go ahead given the general mood music.
Edit: peston was also quoting something from PHE yesterday that he said showed there were zero new infections detected in London that day. I'm not sure where he got it from.
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That's higher than I would have expected. You have to wonder if there is justification for those 5; at risk, or direct family members at risk.
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2 of my friends are primary heads, the responsibility for opening and how to do it, has basically been passed down to them. Both of their biggest issues are the potential lack of staff, due to lots of staff being considered at high risk, so actually having enough staff in may well be an issue for them.
On a slightly separate note they have both asked their parents of the years coming back if they'll be sending hte kids back in. The two schools are quite different in demographics and the leafy suburb looks like higher than 60% of parents will, whilst the lot less affluent area school has around 10% who will.
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Rich - that reflects a survey I posted up earlier in the week (twitter link) that poorer households had a 27% send em back rate and wealthiest 60%.
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Change in government attitude apparently. Now no talk of penalising schools for not opening.
After a polite email to the school admin i had a surprise phone call from the headmistress to discuss why the school couldn't open, it appears she is following an interpretation of the guidelines for 2ndary schools (2m distancing to apply within bubbles) rather than primary schools (it is expected children won't be able to follow social distancing within the bubble...). Given they have to keep space for ~140 keyworker children (out of 400 total pupils, approx 70 are attending), who they would keep in separate bubbles from other attendees, they can't physically manage to bring in a whole other school year.
Whether she's genuinely misunderstood the guideline, or is doing the british thing of taking the rules and adding a bit extra to be on the safe side is open to question (but also no point questioning).
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Just in from our School (ours is in the Nursery there - Reception in Sept) (forgive formatting - copy pasted from a PDF)
"Plans are currently going ahead for what a return to school might look like and were discussed at
a lengthy governors' meeting on Wednesday evening. We understand that on May 28th the
government will assess whether its 5 tests have been fully met and either confirm or halt their
plan for schools to start bringing children back into school. At the meeting we agreed that Y6 will
return to school on June 8th, assuming that the tests are met. Due to the size of our KS2
classrooms, we can have no more than 12 children in a room if we are to maintain the social
distancing recommendation of 2m between their seats. T
One thing to note is that from June 8th we will be operating very strictly timed staggered arrival
and departure times and these will also apply to the children attending the key worker childcare
provision, who will need to be onsite between 8.35 and 8.45 am. Children who miss their time
slot will have to wait off-site with their parent/carer until we can safely admit them. We will also
not be admitting parents onto the school grounds - we will need you to drop your child off at a
designated gate where a member of staff will see them safely onto the playground. We will send
out a detailed 'return to school' document after the half term break to the relevant families.
We plan to have Y1 children return to school w.b. June 15th and again, detailed advice will be sent
to those parents in due course. We have no plans at present for bringing EYFS children back into
school, although that might change, and being honest we would have preferred to bring back
Y5. They have less time left with us and have national tests next year - we don't understand the
government's thinking about which year groups to prioritise but perhaps the scientific
documentation will make it more clear.
As we have previously said, we are completing very detailed risk assessments to make the residual
risk to children and adults as low as possible but we need to make it very clear that we cannot
guarantee there will be no spread of infection once we have more children back. The
government is publishing its scientific advice today but there are so many conflicting views about
bringing children back into school that it feels like we are negotiating our way across a minefield.
The final decision about whether to send your child back into school if they are in Y6 or Y1 will be
yours, and the DfE has indicated there will be no penalties applied for school absence during the
second half of term."
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We got one from the Grammar headmistress today, regarding the eldest.
Exasperated, springs to mind:
“ Dear Parents, Carers and Students
I had hoped to be writing to you today to outline our plans for providing some face to face support for Years 10 and 12. We have a detailed plan, which we believe will be both helpful to students and prioritises the safety of both students and staff.
Unfortunately, the government guidance for secondary schools regarding this has still not been released. It was due out at the start of the week. We have therefore been advised by the Local Authority to pause our planning until we receive this guidance in case we need to change our plans based on the medical and scientific advice informing the DfE guidance.
We had hoped to start inviting some Year 10 and 12 students into college for face to face support from 8 June. We will still endeavour to do so, but this will depend upon the date of release of the official secondary guidance and if, and by how much, our original plan needs to change in response to this.
Thank you for your patience. I hope you are all safe and well.”
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Yes - our one pretty clearly reflects annoyance/exasparation about what they are supposed to do. (which I think is completely justfied TBH)
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Ours said as the guidance was only out 28th there was no way they could open June 1st so would aim for June 8th after they'd heard. But basically asked for a show of hands first so they could base planning on that.
From quite a small sample, I'm one of the only parents to have said she won't be going back but it seems it's mostly the kids being keen to return and parents going along with it.
I don't know why they don't aim for an earlier restart, mid August or something. Doesn't seem likely to me that anybody is going to be having a summer holiday so why not bring the term start forward and plan for a longer, staggered half-term so families can hopefully get away by then.
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What a crapshoot for schools to have to deal with. They've already been driven to minimal administrative support and personnel provision by cuts, and now they have to improvise this stuff on the hop.
At least Scotland has been clear - no schools back until next term, and then it will be a mixed delivery of home and school teaching.
Impossible to arrange for siblings to be in school on the same day, so I likely that we will be on back to back rotas for days at work and working from home, as the out of school club will probably not be allowed to open (too broad a mix of children in a relatively uncontrolled environment) and we don't want grandparents (who usually do school pick up and drop off a couple of times as week) being exposed unnecessarily.
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I don't know why they don't aim for an earlier restart, mid August or something.
I suspect they know they wouldn't win the union battle over this. Teachers have been working throughout and contracts have specific terms on days worked, directed time etc.
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Ok, but if they shut down earlier and gave them an extra week at half term,
surely they could come to some compromise.
Ok, it'd be nice to think that they could come to a compromise. Might be a bit piece meal with staff off at different times but as long as everyone gets their leave allowance surely that'd be acceptable to the majority.
I used surely again....
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Mrs S is going back to secondary school on 1st June.Small ish school roll about 250 students, a large catchment area up to about 60 miles. No kids until August I believe. Teachers will be there to try and formulate just how SD can work.I would imagine that kids returning will be done by location. It would be crazy for some to travel for up to an hour just for a half-day's lessons.
She has no qualms about returning and along with many students, parents and colleagues has struggled with home learning.
This is Highland Region by the way.
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I expect for such a large spread that would be the way.
No-one lives further away from our school than 5 miles, pretty small catchment.
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Have we already had the link to the SAGE advice on reopening? I can’t recall, so apologies for any repetition:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886994/s0257-sage-sub-group-modelling-behavioural-science-relaxing-school-closures-sage30.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886994/s0257-sage-sub-group-modelling-behavioural-science-relaxing-school-closures-sage30.pdf)
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Sage advice? It’s been anything but!
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OFSTED chief inspector being wheeled out today to criticise teachers for not having enough of a ‘can do’ attitude and sticking too strictly to the govt guidelines. I can see that going down well. Naughty teachers - it’s all your fault for not coming up with a coherent strategy to open up schools by some arbitrary date dreamed up in Downing Street.
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Another ridiculous announcement (https://schoolsweek.co.uk/boris-johnson-promises-huge-amount-of-catch-up-for-pupils-to-be-announced-next-week/). "Catch up summer schools" are, in principle, a good idea, but there's no plan for this. Teaching unions and schools have not been involved. Despite meeting with the government yesterday they had no notice of this measure before it came up in the briefing. Given that teachers can't be forced to work over the summer holidays there's no sign of how this would be staffed, where the money will come from, what the program will actually involve, who it will target... basically no detail at all. There's also the issue that many of those most in need of this would struggle to attend, for lots of different reasons, not least that school buses wouldn't be running (at least that should be solvable).
On the announcement last week that apprenticeships would be guaranteed: this isn't in the government's power to promise. Much like virus testing they can guarantee the capacity, but apprentices are employees. Even if the government pays their wages there's no guarantee that employers will take them all on, but it would help. Unsurprisingly, given the government's form, the Department for Education themselves were not informed of this announcement.
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It looks like we are going to get an extra week of summer holiday next year, and the schools are starting back up a week early.
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Another ridiculous announcement (https://schoolsweek.co.uk/boris-johnson-promises-huge-amount-of-catch-up-for-pupils-to-be-announced-next-week/). "Catch up summer schools" are, in principle, a good idea, but there's no plan for this. Teaching unions and schools have not been involved. Despite meeting with the government yesterday they had no notice of this measure before it came up in the briefing. Given that teachers can't be forced to work over the summer holidays there's no sign of how this would be staffed, where the money will come from, what the program will actually involve, who it will target... basically no detail at all. There's also the issue that many of those most in need of this would struggle to attend, for lots of different reasons, not least that school buses wouldn't be running (at least that should be solvable).
That was my thoughts exactly when I saw this first... another f*cking press release without any thought...
Most teachers I know have not stopped working - and will now be expected to carry on throughout the summer? Next we'll be hearing its their civic duty etc.. etc..
From my bubble it seems like the biggest reason thats rising to the surface is physical space/infrastructure within which to teach people. Our (due to start in sept) school is half in victorian buildings and its clear from letters we've had from them that his really restricts what they can do with class sizes... Reception was already quite cramped (2 classes in one older building 1 in a new one) - so how that would work who knows...
Maybe we should start a press release Bingo game.
Hairdressers
Outdoor dining (restaraunts)
Swimming pools
Church Services
Betting shops
Cinemas
etc... etc.. etc..
I wonder if expect they have a group of SPADs sat around a Zoom table brainshooting this stuff....
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Totally different approach in Holland again. My partners over there and employees were all very much for getting schools open and just got on with it. All kids now back at school and some have been for a month. So far no increase in cases because of this.
Heres and article from TES. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-how-dutch-schools-reopened-no-pupil-distancing%3famp
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Maybe we should start a press release Bingo game.
Surely they have differetr categories of deflection statements press releases that they selection depending on how much shit they've dug themselves in to.
Big hole, go to to level one, look everyone, the pubs are reopening
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Totally different approach in Holland again. My partners over there and employees were all very much for getting schools open and just got on with it. All kids now back at school and some have been for a month. So far no increase in cases because of this.
Heres and article from TES. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-how-dutch-schools-reopened-no-pupil-distancing%3famp
Very similar here in Denmark. The very youngest children went back in mid-April and the rest in mid-May. We were happy to let our thirteen year old go back even though she's diabetic and thus immune-compromised. Communication from the school has been very clear. They've been starting mid-morning to avoid rush hour commute (most children get to school on foot or public transport) and have completely reorganised the logistics of the start and finish of the day to minimise mixing. I have no idea how much social distancing is occurring in the classroom.
The messaging from work has been overwhelmingly clear and consistent. We must take care of ourselves and our families first. Very human centred.
Same from the government - the messaging has been unbelievably clear, with no possibility of doubt or uncertainty. I think this might have been the single most important factor here.
Rates of infection have continued to fall since the phased reopening began and we've just had three consecutive days without a death.
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Totally different approach in Holland again.
An interesting difference in messaging as well. The UK Government's messaging really hasn't been helpful and people are still very much focussed on the individual risks. Parents aren't sending their kids back because they think their kids won't be safe, not because they believe in any of the ideas about virus spread and R numbers.
Social distancing among pupils is a non-starter for most age groups based on my own teaching experience. Some older pupils would try, but peer culture would have seen it break down very fast. The approach outlined in this article seems pretty sensible, don't try to enforce it on the kids, but ask adults to try to maintain it themselves. There's been no attempt in the UK to communicate how a lack of social distancing among pupils might actually be ok, that being within 2m of a few people isn't a significant risk to you as an individual. It's left schools in an impossible position, because there's really no way most schools can even open to half of the pupils without understanding that social distancing can't be strictly maintained and that this isn't necessarily that significant.
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I guess there may be more details to come, but on the face of it Johnson’s ‘plan’ of ”a huge amount of catch up for pupils over the summer” amounts to giving schools £80 extra per pupil to spend in the next academic year. And beyond a recommendation of using the money for tuition schools then have to come up with the plans themselves.
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I guess there may be more details to come, but on the face of it Johnson’s ‘plan’ of ”a huge amount of catch up for pupils over the summer” amounts to giving schools £80 extra per pupil to spend in the next academic year. And beyond a recommendation of using the money for tuition schools then have to come up with the plans themselves.
On the plus side - I understand its basically cash to the schools - with which they can do what they want (whether it be tuition or not). This was one of the criticisms of the laptop money - it would have been better given to schools to sort out rather than government/someone else.
Though when I first saw the news, my initial thought was £1bn isnt much....
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Just considering money for tutoring (not the other £650 promised for next school year), £350M divided by 8.8m schoolchildren makes about £40 available for a tutor for each school child. So an hour or two of extra tutoring each. Not going to do much.
If you look at the approx. 1.3M children receiving free school meals and direct all tutoring monies to them, it comes to around £270 per FSM child, very roughly. So 10-12 hour long sessions perhaps. Significant, but not enough in itself to properly compensate. And non FSM deserve catch up support too.
Worth stressing that these monies will only be provided in September.
The devil's always in the detail, but the only answer is to get them back into school. And for this we still don't have workable plans.
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We had parent teacher group team meeting last night, got to feel for the heads. Ours has been working 12 hour day 7 days a week formulating plans, RAs etc for getting as many people into the school as possible. Our school is basically one big room, with cupboards etc as subdividers; they have basically sat with a sketch plan of the school, and moving things around by hand to try and maximise space. And if the rules change to 1m or 1.5m they have to rip it all up and start again. Under present guideline it will be one week in 3 they are at school, and she said trying to arrange "bubbles" getting siblings in the same bubbles is practically impossible.
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On the plus side - I understand its basically cash to the schools - with which they can do what they want (whether it be tuition or not). This was one of the criticisms of the laptop money - it would have been better given to schools to sort out rather than government/someone else.
Though when I first saw the news, my initial thought was £1bn isnt much....
Maybe I’m being unfair, or it’s a sign of how low my respect for this govt has become, but my initial thought was that they’ve gone for the easy option of throwing a bit of money at schools and essentially saying “there you go, it’s your problem now”. And they have a nice round eye-catching £1bn figure to go along with all the other large-sounding-but-usually-inadequate numbers they use to silence any criticism.
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AFAIK, this 6 month break is the first time UK school children have had their entitlement to education not honoured since 1880. Worth adding for teenagers rather than primary aged children I think we would have to go back to 1902. HM gov has failed to manage where the governments in WW1 and WW2 succeeded.
Edit: cross posts
Ali, the money is very welcome, but the government should be governing in my view. There seems to be no plan worked out for anything more than headlines.
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Maybe I’m being unfair, or it’s a sign of how low my respect for this govt has become, but my initial thought was that they’ve gone for the easy option...
It's cynical, but I don't think it's unfair. It's money that schools have been stripped of in the last 10 years and should be ongoing support under a government that actually cared about positive reform in education. I also thought it's a suspiciously round number.
That said, it's a decent wad of cash and hopefully schools will be allowed to decide how it's used, even if the goal is set. It doesn't stretch far for individual tuition, but it goes quite a long way for small group teaching (up to 6 kids) which is also very effective (I would argue more effective in many cases). It'll be interesting to see how many parents kick off if their kid isn't getting this support.
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Edit: cross posts
Ali, the money is very welcome, but the government should be governing in my view. There seems to be no plan worked out for anything more than headlines.
True - where are the thoughts about school buildings - space etc.. and staff for smaller classes etc.. etc.. this could be planned for now...
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There seems to be no plan worked out for anything more than headlines.
I can't be the only one finding this aspect of the crisis a little terrifying. There doesn't seem to be a plan for anything at all.
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It doesn't stretch far for individual tuition, but it goes quite a long way for small group teaching (up to 6 kids) which is also very effective (I would argue more effective in many cases).
I agree. However, let's be clear about something. Currently, there is no workable plan for children to return to school in September.
Schools are not going to be able to offer a normal education to children in the autumn, unless something changes between then and now. And when/if there is a significant resurgence of the virus with the onset of winter, what then?
It's a disaster. This is what I wrote to my MP:
HM gov should have practical plans for children of all ages to resume their education. It doesn't. The DfE needs to match the ambition of UK teachers and parents, consult effectively and act. Were this a true priority, we would have practical solutions already.
Please, get a grip. We need you to.
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It would be great if you guys and girls could write to yours too.
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I will, although mine is an out and out Tory meatpuppet and an utter cretin.
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I think I've demonstrated the government's one prime ability here - deflection. By even thinking that this "plan" for tuition looks viable it's distracted me from the big picture of whether schools are!
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Judging by the numbers of bored looking groups of youths closely hanging out with each other outside, any concerns regarding social distancing in schools are fairly moot. At least it will be something schools can at least attempt to establish some control over?
Personally I'm aghast that a decent plan hasn't been enacted to get schools ready for September. It was a golden opportunity missed - empty buildings and plenty of people with not much to do is the perfect time to build extra classroom capacity where possible. The sector could have been transformed. With the infrastructure in place a recruitment campaign could have been started which combined with a phased re-introduction of pupils from part-time to full-time in school over the first term would see us with smaller more manageable classes in bigger classrooms to help reduce transmission risks.
Unfortunately everything this government touch seems to turn to shit. Let's call it the Boris Touch.
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Starts August here.
I think building extra capacity would be impossible in the time available, considering the process involved and resources required, and (hopefully) that this is not going to be a permanent need.
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It's a disaster. This is what I wrote to my MP:
It would be great if you guys and girls could write to yours too.
I have done already regarding this and a whole host of other things. I’m not a teacher and don’t have kids but I realise how important schools reopening is and what a shit show it’s been. On top of it all the blatant attempts to shift blame onto anyone but themselves is just infuriating.
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This is an interesting article comparing 2 boys' schools in Greater Manchester.. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/19/its-a-basic-equality-issue-home-learning-gap-between-state-and-private-schools
Not interesting because a 500 year old top class independent school is faring rather better than a nearby state school, but because the state school facing barriers to provision is really, really good. It is not an average comp by any stretch. Having been in it, I know. So if they are up against it, what hope the average community comp?
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There seems to be no plan worked out for anything more than headlines.
I can't be the only one finding this aspect of the crisis a little terrifying. There doesn't seem to be a plan for anything at all.
You are definitely not the only one. I had my first day back teaching today. My school have done an incredible job of getting the place ready for Y10 and y12. But we have heard absolutely nothing that is in any way helpful for what may or may not happen in September. Not a sniff. It's a total shambles, and I would say verging on a whole new chapter of crisis. Schools are doing everything they can, and it's very much despite the government rather than because of. They should genuinely be very very ashamed of the handling of this. What is an education secretary actually doing all these months?
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There seems to be no plan worked out for anything more than headlines.
I can't be the only one finding this aspect of the crisis a little terrifying. There doesn't seem to be a plan for anything at all.
And all this before the REALLY difficult phase to come that involves getting the economy properly back on its feet, together with all the necessary restructuring and repurposing of sectors, businesses, jobs that are no longer viable. There is a lot of self congratulation from the govt about the furlough scheme, which is about the only thing they seem to have done even vaguely right, but that is essentially just a logistical exercise involving distributing lots of money. It’s not exactly comparable with the challenges that lie ahead, which is what terrifies me.
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The latest announcement from Williamson seems to amount to "we can't really think of any sort of plan, so why don't you all just crack on as normal from September".
With the usual "more details to follow" and "watch this space" comments, which imply that they didn't really start thinking about this until everyone started suggesting that they should.
What really grates is the "we've been doing this" type comments from him. Have you though Gav? Or have schools been doing that whilst you make vague statements from a distance, and do basically nothing that would qualify as planning.
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I have followed this thread with some interest for a while as we have a six year old (in year 1) who is an only child and we have just sent him back this week. I would say that my experience of our local school (nice catchment area) is very different to what has been described many here.
Basically since the school closed we have had very little support from school. We get a weekly letter via email with a link to a couple of websites and told to do stuff from that. The websites are good and have been very helpful and would be a great start and way of keeping things uniform if the class teacher had also been active and keeping in touch and potentially doing some videos etc. However there has been no attempt to communicate on a more individual basis and there have been no videos or attempts at anything creative from the two class teachers of the year group. As far as I can see until the change in position from the govt the class teachers were on full pay doing very little each week. Once the govt announced the intention to re open we have then had a bit of communication but in general it has not been good, clear or well thought through. The school for no clear reason opened up to year 1 and reception 2 weeks after the supposed date and it is a general feeling that this was just a delaying tactic. I personally feel that they were just waiting to see if they would actually have to open... There have been some letters home explaining that they have not been given enough time to organise the return. My feeling on this is that there was ample time in the period of 8 weeks full lockdown to investigate the practicalities and have a partial plan. Being given a month to get things sorted seems adequate to me for a primary school.
I offer my experience as a counter to the general feeling on the thread that the govt has done a crap job in terms of education. I am no supporter of the conservatives but am not really sure that they have done such a bad job here. I am not sure why it is not reasonable to tell schools to make plans and get on with opening? Yes there are always going to be issues and it may involve extra work but this is not a normal period of time and we all need to pull together.
To try and re open our business we worked with very little support or guidance and needed to do an enormous amount of reading through guidance and planning. I didn’t honestly think that it was the government’s job to come up with a detailed plan for us. I think it is fair to say that was my job in the same way that I think individual schools have the responsibility to have been planning and organizing to get kids back.
Potentially I might feel differently if our local school had been proactive and it was clear that the teachers were working through this period.
Anyway for a bit of background; I am in general a supporter of education, teachers and schools and was in the past a teacher myself. In usual times I would be defending teachers and criticizing the govt in terms of funding and resources etc but these are not normal times and I think it is okay to ask people to do more than usual and take more responsibility than usual for the greater good.
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Davo I am sorry to hear about your experience as our experience has been totally different. We have a 5 year old in primary and the school communication has been clear and detailed at all times. They stayed open throughout for key workers children including over the holidays, they reopened as soon as possible on for reception and year 6 as per guidance having to close again after 2 days due to a rise in the local R value. As soon as new data became available they opened again though on the Friday not waiting until the Monday. My son has returned on every day they have been open and is loving being back in school, the environment is very different with separate desks more outdoor activities and a coloured bubble of children he can interact with whilst this may sound daunting to us the kids seem to have adapted remarkably well.
Also when they have been off the teachers seem to have been working very hard, there was an initial period with no contact for the first week of lockdown however since then we have had regular work posted to the online portal along with links to various online resources (including a brilliant online library of books that has been brilliant on the tablet), phone calls to speak to the children individually, comments on any of the children's work that is posted to the online resource, videos congratulating the children individually. Also group video stories and pieces of work that the teachers have prepared at home. Whilst all these resources and help has been made available there has been no pressure from the school for parents to do anything, they are very understanding of different situations and don't seem to be pressurising parents into trying to get through a set amount of work.
From reading this thread i feel very lucky that he is in the school he is.
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Hi Davo I am sorry to hear that your school has left things to drift. My daughter is in Y5 and for 2 weeks they did exactly what you describe with websites and emails but no planning. I was very unimpressed, but they have Ben using google classroom effectively since Easter. It took till last week to receive a Zoom call from the teacher though; I do wonder how they have fulfilled their safeguarding obligations without home contact.
Schools have been attempting to teach and plan for a return. A few schools may not have been doing this as they should; many will have been working flat out. Yours sounds like an exception, though I am disappointed in some respects with my daughter’s school too.
They can only plan for what their employer tells them to though. When that is constantly changing (c 200 changes to the guidance for schools so far), constantly comes through without warning, is not accompanied by consultation and objectives (to get kids back) are contradicted by restrictions (2m distance), it seems reasonable to say the DfE is not doing its job. They set the rules but do not provide or discuss the plan to implement them.
How do you keep hundreds of children in an enclosed space 2m apart, not touching the same objects and then cleaning common surfaces before another child touches them? It can be done, but you cannot have full occupancy. You need small groups, rotas, extra cleaning staff, staggered times, classroom left empty for cleaning, storage space for the stripped out furniture and so on. The DfE has not done its job to enable this for all children and no amount of Williamson airily saying that they aspire to achieve these things makes them any closer to happening.
Expecting the teachers to teach, senior leaders to plan- this is what they are paid for. But they aren’t paid to organise and implement policy at the DfE and I don’t think it reasonable to expect them to.
Where are we going with secondaries? You could teach Humanities, Social Sciences, Languages, Maths and English in a single classroom the kids to reduce transmission. But it would all be mixed ability teaching, no sets. The kid aiming for 9 gets the same teacher in front of them as the 3/4 border child. But Science, PE, Music, Art, Drama and DT? A stationary model will not work for them. Where is the proper discussion with schools about what to do in September?
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I've been in school a few times over the past 4 weeks and we are partially opening up to y10 and 12 but I cannot see how we can go anywhere near full capacity unless everybody just accepts that the notion of social distancing has to be scrapped if schools are to open.
For context, I am a chemistry teacher. A lab in my school has a capacity for 24 students sitting side by with about 30cm between shoulders. Typically though we have classes of 30 to 33 in such a lab so students are very closely packed. There is no magic bigger lab or even spare room that will appear. There is no magic spare teacher which will appear.
These students move to a new room after a 50min lesson and a new batch moves in.
The notion that during this time schools could have built extra capacity is really not a well considered proposition at all. The ideas that in a 3 month timescale you could build new classrooms and recruit enough new teachers is laughable.
If, as parents you want your kids back in school in september then you are just going to have to accept that we wont be able to keep your kids safe. This sounds like the only way it can work.
I am a parent of 3 kids and I know that if I want my kids in school I will just have to accept the same thing.
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Hi MrJonathanR
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I find myself quite torn here because on the one hand I mostly agree with what you say and describe - although I am not so sure that our primary is the exception. I think the other local primary schools have been a bit better but not great either.
I find it difficult to comment upon the situation facing any secondary school as it is clearly on a different scale. As you mention I don’t think social distancing and all the issues you describe can be solved. My guess is that apart from better hygiene procedures there is little that secondary schools can do.
In terms of primary schools I generally think they have had enough notice and enough time to plan for what they needed to do. In terms of returning in September for our primary I would assume that it will have to be a full return of all kids or they will not be able to fully re open.
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If, as parents you want your kids back in school in september then you are just going to have to accept that we wont be able to keep your kids safe. This sounds like the only way it can work.
I am a parent of 3 kids and I know that if I want my kids in school I will just have to accept the same thing.
Completely agree with this. This is basically where I and my partner are at. I think we have come to a point where to keep kids out of school for much longer risks a large amount of harm and personally I think it is best they return in September and we accept these risks
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The decision to have your kids back with no distancing would be much easier if there were c.100 new cases a day (or less) instead of the 1200-1500 new cases a day we have now.
Regardless of that - if I were a parent with a ongoing health issue making me (or anyone else in the house) vulnerable - I Would be pretty worried about a non distanced return etc....
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The decision to have your kids back with no distancing would be much easier if there were c.100 new cases a day (or less) instead of the 1200-1500 new cases a day we have now.
Regardless of that - if I were a parent with a ongoing health issue making me (or anyone else in the house) vulnerable - I Would be pretty worried about a non distanced return etc....
I am not a parent so obviously these issues are less confronting for me, but surely this scenario basically comes down to a judgement call: kids education vs perceived health risk? As others have pointed out a non distanced return seems the only realistic option, regardless of when it takes place.
I agree Williamson has been completely useless and i think its basically certain he will be jettisoned in the next reshuffle (probably along with Hancock...). That said, I sympathise because as Scouse has pointed out, one cant magic up new classrooms and new teachers in a three month period so the whole concept was doomed to failure it seems to me.
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The decision to have your kids back with no distancing would be much easier if there were c.100 new cases a day (or less) instead of the 1200-1500 new cases a day we have now.
This depends very much where you are in the country and I think a regional approach based on if there are cases in each education authority/school catchment would be more appropriate than the blanket national approach. Eg Devon with ~5 documented cases a week (my wife who is an avid devourer of statistics tells me...) vs Leicester with 200 or so a week recently. Given the hotspot clusters of cases there are probably quite a few areas where schools could be safely fully open right now.
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Sprog #1's (3yo) first day back at nursery today. Fingers crossed.
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The decision to have your kids back with no distancing would be much easier if there were c.100 new cases a day (or less) instead of the 1200-1500 new cases a day we have now.
This depends very much where you are in the country and I think a regional approach based on if there are cases in each education authority/school catchment would be more appropriate than the blanket national approach. Eg Devon with ~5 documented cases a week (my wife who is an avid devourer of statistics tells me...) vs Leicester with 200 or so a week recently. Given the hotspot clusters of cases there are probably quite a few areas where schools could be safely fully open right now.
I was just struck by your wife’s spotting of the Leicester outbreak, two weeks before the government...
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Worth a few minutes read:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/01/schools-reopening-coronavirus-arizona-superintendent/?arc404=true (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/01/schools-reopening-coronavirus-arizona-superintendent/?arc404=true)