UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Sloper on April 22, 2014, 03:07:24 pm
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Probably preaching to the choir here but it doesn't harm to repeat.
1. Control your dog. Having a large aggressively barking dog running up to people is generally not welcomed. If you can't control it, don't take it to the crag.
2. Having a dog roaming around a crag like Bowdon Doors without any form of control at the height of the lambing season is asking to cause problems with the land owner.
3. Blaming the person walking on the foot path for the dog's aggression 'because she's not used to people carrying bouldering mats' and 'she's just being friendly' is (no, it really is) good reason to be given a frank debrief, in fact if I hadn't been giving our son a piggy back I would have expressed myself more freely.
rant over.
Other than that, a very pleasant morning was had by all.
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:agree:
I'm surprised you didn't get 'oooh, he's never done that before...'
Dogs are unpredictable. Keep them on a lead or at home. :worms:
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As long as the dog is friendly and reasonably well behaved then that's cool by me. I know some climbers who complain about dogs being at the crag e.g. they poo everywhere. Then the climbers take themselves off for a dump in the bushes. Who is there to look after them. Dog's; if your human can't behave it's self then leave it at home or at least tie it to a tree.
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Seen the BMC vid from about a year ago Sloper? Worth googling.. Some good work from them....
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He'll only lick you to death.
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I was bitten by a dog in an unprovoked attack at Burbage south about three years ago and have definitely felt more nervous around dogs since. The owner, not obviously a climber but wearing a SHAFF t-shirt, ran up several minutes later. I had my daughter with me and was still fending the thing off with my pad. I've noticed several times since that many dogs react badly to the approach of a pad wearing figure and I always take mine off now, but it was already on the floor when I was attacked. I grew up around dogs and have always liked them but this has been somewhat spoilt and I'd much rather not be around them at the crag.
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As long as the dog is friendly and reasonably well behaved then that's cool by me. I know some climbers who complain about dogs being at the crag e.g. they poo everywhere. Then the climbers take themselves off for a dump in the bushes. Who is there to look after them. Dog's; if your human can't behave it's self then leave it at home or at least tie it to a tree.
I don't object to all dogs at the crag but there are situations where it's totally out of order, i.e. at Bamford, (where there's a sign sayign 'no dogs') Slipstones etc and others where a modicum of common sense would dictate fido shouldn't be there, i.e. at a crag when there's a concessionary access and the farmer has a field full of lambs.
As for dogs being reasonably friendly not everyone's perception of what 'reasonably friendly' is the same. Lots of people are scared of dogs for good reason.
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You Brits have no idea how much worse the dog issue can get here in North America (maybe fractionally better in Canada than in the US as you can be reasonably confident the self-righteous owners are not armed).
However I will not comment further beyond noting that Shark's dog Pip is thoroughly charming ...
Just returned from a week in the Vancouver area and couldn't believe the number of dogs. everywhere. I even stumbled across what looked like the pet district which was full of vets, shops for doggy toys and the like. nuts.
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As long as the dog is friendly and reasonably well behaved then that's cool by me. I know some climbers who complain about dogs being at the crag e.g. they poo everywhere. Then the climbers take themselves off for a dump in the bushes. Who is there to look after them. Dog's; if your human can't behave it's self then leave it at home or at least tie it to a tree.
I don't object to all dogs at the crag but there are situations where it's totally out of order, i.e. at Bamford, (where there's a sign sayign 'no dogs') Slipstones etc and others where a modicum of common sense would dictate fido shouldn't be there, i.e. at a crag when there's a concessionary access and the farmer has a field full of lambs.
As for dogs being reasonably friendly not everyone's perception of what 'reasonably friendly' is the same. Lots of people are scared of dogs for good reason.
Sure. I agree with you. I said 'friendly' and reasonably well behaved, not reasonably friendly which wouldn't have made sense.
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Owning the dumbest, most energetic, Golden Retriever that has ever lived (have you seen the movie "Up"? ), it is always a bit of a dilemma.
She just does everything at full pelt and this has occasionally resulted in flying children (read "skittles").
So we usually split the day between walking/playing with the dog and climbing. When climbing, she gets clipped to a spike with shade and water.
It's not quantum theory.
It is intensely embarrassing when she jumps up at strangers, particularly those scared of dogs, but she just seems drawn to some people; as if they were old friends. Whilst totally ignoring others.
So, quite often she just gets left at home.
There are times to take the dog for walk, or have a family lunacy day that involves a bit of climbing and there are times to admit where your focus is going to be and let K-9 take a break.
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I've had dogs rummage through my sac whilst belaying, walk all over my pad with muddy paws and lay down on my pad underneath me whilst I'm climbing.
I am not a huge dog fan but appreciate other people's desire to spend the day with their k9 companion and their right to do so out in the countryside. I would have thought a little respect for others would be common sense but some dog owners don't seem to realise that not everyone loves dogs as much as they do.
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The one time I met andy popp at the crag:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lwgyf-m5zcI/U1erEo0xFBI/AAAAAAAABIA/h4wuAAzRNrc/s1600/fiendprofile1.jpg)
I like dogs, I like dogs at the crag, and I prefer dogs that will come over for a stroke and tread on my bag and slobber on me rather than dogs that are all timid and standoffish (I'd quite like to meet OMM's retriever!). But obviously I agree that owners should keep them under good control as regards any potential aggression, food theft, etc.
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When climbing, she gets clipped to a spike with shade and water.
Good man, wish more owners would do the same. It gets wearing extracting someone else's beast from your rucsac and lunch to get no more response from the owner than an Aww bless, isn't he sweet....
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had a evening at Max buttress totally ruined last year by two dogs (different owners) tearing round all over the place. running over ropes, sniffing in sacs, jumping up at us whilst belaying, constantly dropping sticks at our feet etc etc. Owners seemed a bit oblivious despite mutterings. Once the owners took the hint, their idea to occupy the dogs, chuck a stick in the river to fetch. fecking genius - now we had two wet dogs charging about. The owners packed up and moved on when my mate chased one dog and gave it a good kick in the bootocks. Didn't come near us again though.
I've nothing against the dogs themselves, they're just animals doing what they do. Its the owners I take umbridge with, well, the ones that think its all a bit jovial when pooch jumps up with his slobber and muddy paws, and as for the ones who put the poo in a little bag and leave it in the heather at the side of the path over to millstone or better still, hanging proudly on a bit of barb wire somewhere. They want the stuff ramming in their faces.
[/nazi dog hater rant]
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What would happen if a dog ate a bar of laxative chocolate? I wouldn't want to cause lasting harm to the dog, but exploding canine arse gravy in the owners car might be an education for the owner.
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exploding canine arse gravy
Think I saw them at Leeds festival in 2005.
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:badidea:
What would happen if a dog ate a bar of laxative chocolate? I wouldn't want to cause lasting harm to the dog, but exploding canine arse gravy in the owners car might be an education for the owner.
Seeing as chocolate is considered toxic to dogs, i think adding laxatives to the mix might result in some vets bills if, dont take it out on the dog! its is always the owners fault and i say that as a mutt owner.
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[/quote]
its is always the owners fault and i say that as a mutt owner.
[/quote]
I've got to agree here. The title of the thread should be 'dog OWNERS at the crag'. A well behaved dog that is suitable to the owner's lifestyle is a pleasure to be around.
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If the dog owner's dog wasn't at the crag then the issue wouldn't arise.
Part of the problem is that a significant proportion of dog owners think that their mutt's behaviour is acceptable when a lot of other people find it objectionable.
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exploding canine arse gravy
Think I saw them at Leeds festival in 2005.
They were shit then too.. ;)
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"Part of the problem is that a significant proportion of dog owners think that their mutt's behaviour is acceptable when a lot of other people find it objectionable."
is there a similar thread relating to children?
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"Part of the problem is that a significant proportion of dog owners think that their mutt's behaviour is acceptable when a lot of other people find it objectionable."
is there a similar thread relating to children?
Because a dog and a child are an absolute equivalent.
Moron.
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Because a dog and a child are an absolute equivalent.
Moron.
it wasnt an entirely serious comment but thanks.
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O.k. I'll down grade the insult to semi-moron.
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well thats okay then. to get the thread back on a serious note, im amazed people dont follow the sensible rules, basically because having your dog under control is less hassle than having them running about and causing people problems, a clear seperation between walking the dog and climbing should be drawn as i for one have never successfully done both at the same time and as for the lambing thing, if you love your dog, remember dogs love sheep and so do farmers (fnar fnar) a farmer has a perfect legal right to shoot a dog thats worrying live stock, and nobody wants fido in the sights... apart maybe from sloper...
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I don't have a general problem with dogs at crags, just when the dog is a problem, i.e. the best behaved dog at Bamford is a problem, the difficulty is, that I doubt I've ever heard of the owner of a badly behaved dog or one where there shouldn't be any addressing the problem.
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hmm might be a case of only becoming aware of the dog when the dog is causing a problem? i realise as well that i live in scotland and our climbing spots are always pretty sparse in terms of climbers so its not really likely to be an issue compared to a well visited crag down safffff.
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Dogs are far more pleasant, companionable, controllable, civilised and less downright irritating and distracting than children. I'd much rather have them at the crag.
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I've always fancied the idea of a big cat (i.e. panther sized) as a pet, how good would it be to take it for a walk in the park.
Of course a panther isn't dangerous, it's just a cat, tigers and lions aren't dangerous either, it's only the ones that have bad owners that are dangerous.
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"Part of the problem is that a significant proportion of dog owners think that their mutt's behaviour is acceptable when a lot of other people find it objectionable."
is there a similar thread relating to children?
Because a dog and a child are an absolute equivalent.
Moron.
Change it from dogs at crags to children in restaurants (charging round annoying the other diners under their parents' benevolent eyes rather than being told to sit down and eat their dinner) and the man is spot on!
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Indeed, I've lost count of the times when I've been at restaurant and a badly behaved child has stolen my food, beyond number the stories I've heard of diners being savaged by out of control children (check out the restaurant thread for the gory details) the tales of children escaping from their table and attacking wildlife are legion, the difficulty of avoiding kid's turds on the way to my table are a fresh scar on my psyche. . . . so yes absolutely spot on.
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:D was that at the Otley cafe? ;)
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Indeed, I've lost count of the times when I've been at restaurant and a badly behaved child has stolen my food, beyond number the stories I've heard of diners being savaged by out of control children (check out the restaurant thread for the gory details) the tales of children escaping from their table and attacking wildlife are legion, the difficulty of avoiding kid's turds on the way to my table are a fresh scar on my psyche. . . . so yes absolutely spot on.
I didn't know you'd met my kids...
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People not controlling their children can be very irritating but not intimidating. I generally feel sorry for the child as their mother/father is obviously doing a shit job.
The same could be said for dogs as it's not the dog's fault that it's owner is a useless prick.
However, the inability to control little Jacob may rile me slightly, for a minute, and then make me amused at his Dad/Mum being useless.
The inability to control the four legged thing may involve my child being seriously injured.
Big fucking difference.
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Shit, I just agreed with Sloper again. Yet more proof that he's not really Tory at all.
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Indeed, I've lost count of the times when I've been at restaurant and a badly behaved child has stolen my food, beyond number the stories I've heard of diners being savaged by out of control children (check out the restaurant thread for the gory details) the tales of children escaping from their table and attacking wildlife are legion, the difficulty of avoiding kid's turds on the way to my table are a fresh scar on my psyche. . . .
I'd heard it was grim up north but I didn't realise it was that bad! ;D
Though I suspect it that the lack of boundaries and control evidenced in small kids being allowed to run riot round a restaurant is just one end of the scale where the other end is ten years later and the feral scroats running round the streets videoing their mates happy slapping or whatever the latest slang is for performing acts of violence and terrorizing the community.
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Shit, I just agreed with Sloper again. Yet more proof that he's not really Tory at all.
Fuck. Has Sloper hacked your account? Or has Lagers got at it again ;)
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well having established that there is no (logical) equivalence between children and dogs, im glad its still socially acceptable to shout at a dog, other peoples kids, now thats a minefield. we could all get into anecdotes about the time that.... blah blah. the under lying point seems to be that people take wee beasties of the two or four leg variety to climbing spots where occasionally they encounter people who use this forum (ie take climbing reasonably seriously) and its basically a matter of manners, be it fido, little tarquin, that annoying stereo etc. pretty much a lack of concern for others the medium, of annoyance is secondary really, its the being a dick that counts...
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Hmm, I think you're missing the point here.
1. Leaving fido at home for 8 hours = fine
2. Leaving 3 year old child at home alone for 8 hours = social services & police calling
Also don't you think children should have the chance to experience the great outdoors, museums, art galleries and so on after all how do you think that they'll develop a love of nature, art and so on.
The fact that you draw no distinction between shouting at a dog says rather a lot (about your lack of a sense of perspective), but more about the change in society, it used to be acceptable to shout at and hit other people's children, perhaps if people got involved in poor behaviour etc then there'd be less social dysfunction.
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I am most annoyed by the lack of effort demonstrated by land owners in control the behaviour of their invertebrate populations.
It's almost as if they don't care about the impact that ticks and midges have on the other users of their land.
Somebody should do something.
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The inability to control the four legged thing may involve my child being seriously injured.
Big fucking difference.
Totally agree, lost count of the times I'm out walking with my 2 (small) kids, when some big fucking dog comes charging up, with the owner usually 'round the corner' out of sight.
Although interestingly having spent 10 years sewing kids faces back together/back on - 9/10 of them it was their own dog that did it.
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and when the owner comes around the corner the spout plaititudes about the dog 'only being friendly' etc the worst I've heard is that it's the victim's fault for responding inappropriately although I'm sure there are other lame & dishonest excuses available.
Our son was chased by a bloody bog lab on the monsal trail a few weeks back and the owners while apologetic couldn't get into their head that it was their responsibilty to control their dog.
In respect of the injuries to children as a result of a family / friend's dog attacking them, let me guess, staffie type dogs were usually responsible . . .
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I am most annoyed by the lack of effort demonstrated by land owners in control the behaviour of their invertebrate populations.
It's almost as if they don't care about the impact that ticks and midges have on the other users of their land.
Somebody should do something.
Well I find that quite insulting. All my invertebrates are very well behaved - and none bite anyone else without asking first.
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I am most annoyed by the lack of effort demonstrated by land owners in control the behaviour of their invertebrate populations.
It's almost as if they don't care about the impact that ticks and midges have on the other users of their land.
Somebody should do something.
Well I find that quite insulting. All my invertebrates are very well behaved - and none bite anyone else without asking first.
I was talking specifically about the land owners who own invertebrates.
As a propertyless Trot and all round decent chap, you are clearly a responsible mini-beast companion and there should be more of your type in the world
it's not the creepy crawlies, it's etc.
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Hmm, I think you're missing the point here.
1. Leaving fido at home for 8 hours = fine
2. Leaving 3 year old child at home alone for 8 hours = social services & police calling
Also don't you think children should have the chance to experience the great outdoors, museums, art galleries and so on after all how do you think that they'll develop a love of nature, art and so on.
The fact that you draw no distinction between shouting at a dog says rather a lot (about your lack of a sense of perspective), but more about the change in society, it used to be acceptable to shout at and hit other people's children, perhaps if people got involved in poor behaviour etc then there'd be less social dysfunction.
riiight, well to start with you cant leave a dog in the house on its own for 8 hours and i certainly not saying you should leave a child at home either. the shouting thing, im merely pointing out that you can shout at a dog and not a child, if said dog is annoying you. please dont make judgements on my assumed behaviour as i can assure you i will never walk by a dog child or old lady for that matter being treated badly, in fact ive intervened in such situations many times and will continue to do so when i see such things, i am not an archetype of all thats gone supposedly gone wrong with society. not sure at what point i suggested children should be curtailed from nature art and museums etc either?
bottom line,
Dogs, ground screw, shade, water and something to chew
Children, explain to them what they can and cant do, shade water and something to chew.
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You can't leave a dog at home, really, you'd better tell the millions of people that do that they're inflicting cruelty / behaving unacceptably etc
As for making assumptions about your behaviour, it's perfectly reasonable to infer your attitude and thus behaviour from your comments.
Your comparison with children at crags and dogs at crags show a mindset that tends to underpin irresponsible dog ownership and its consequences.
But let's ask the question shall we, who here has at any time
a. felt threatened by an aggressive child at the crag (and by child I mean under 7, Breck & Pex obviously don't count.
b. had an uncontrolled child eat their lunch, slober all over their kit etc
c. been bitten by child
d. had an controlled child piss all over their kit / bouldering mat etc
I've personally had a,b & d from dogs, never from a child, and I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I won't be in the minority.
So rather than carry on with facile whataboutery why not address teh basis issue which is lots of climbers with dogs act in an irresponsible manner?
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You can't leave a dog at home, really, you'd better tell the millions of people that do that they're inflicting cruelty / behaving unacceptably etc
FOR 8 HOURS, bit of selective quoting there
As for making assumptions about your behaviour, it's perfectly reasonable to infer your attitude and thus behaviour from your comments.
ok well thats your call
Your comparison with children at crags and dogs at crags show a mindset that tends to underpin irresponsible dog ownership and its consequences.
Not sure how you come to that conclusion, seeing as i seem to be repeatedly saying i agree with your points about dogs being under control at crags
But let's ask the question shall we, who here has at any time
a. felt threatened by an aggressive child at the crag (and by child I mean under 7, Breck & Pex obviously don't count.
b. had an uncontrolled child eat their lunch, slober all over their kit etc
c. been bitten by child
d. had an controlled child piss all over their kit / bouldering mat etc
I've personally had a,b & d from dogs, never from a child, and I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I won't be in the minority.
nope none of these have ever happened to me via the medium of dog or child
So rather than carry on with facile whataboutery why not address teh basis issue which is lots of climbers with dogs act in an irresponsible manner?
i agree and refer you to my earlier posts. "Dogs, ground screw, shade, water and something to chew" for example
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riiight, well to start with you cant leave a dog in the house on its own for 8 hours
What do you mean by can't ?
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what about uncontrolled sharks at the crag?
bellowing power screams and swearing; frightening all the tourists etc.
I blame the owners (agan)
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So rather than carry on with facile whataboutery why not address teh basis issue which is lots of climbers with dogs act in an irresponsible manner?
Which he has done teh entire sodding time...
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Chain 'em to their ladders.
Sharks that is.
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Chain 'em to their ladders.
Sharks that is.
Yes, but its very important that ladder owners ensure they are correctly looked after at the crag. Not left strewn accross footpaths, clogging up other problems etc...
(Shark always ensured his ladder was safely tethered and provided with a bowl of water)
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riiight, well to start with you cant leave a dog in the house on its own for 8 hours
What do you mean by can't ?
by cant i mean shouldnt.
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You can use kids for removing other people's tick marks https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150440975701354&l=7fe42ea961 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150440975701354&l=7fe42ea961)
and for giving you beta on sandbags (5a's) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=29196356353&l=5fdd1e9c86 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=29196356353&l=5fdd1e9c86)
Dogs are shit at both of these things
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riiight, well to start with you cant leave a dog in the house on its own for 8 hours
What do you mean by can't ?
by cant i mean shouldnt.
Based on what? It depends on the dog. If they are content to be left on their own insofar as they don't show signs of anxiety chewing furniture etc then leaving them for 8 hours on occasion is not bad treatment.
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http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/factsheetsanddownloads/factsheettimeforadog05.pdf (http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/factsheetsanddownloads/factsheettimeforadog05.pdf)
hope that works as link if not im sure copy and paste will. im sure each owner and dog combo differs but ive always operated on four hours, owning a dog is clearly not for everbody!
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I have had a look at the RSPCA website and they are not so prescriptive.
8 hours every day would be bad practice but if your dog is content being left alone for that length of time on occasion why not.
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bladder and bowel requirements basically!
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I'd have to go with Shark on that one!
Our mutt is left at home when we head out to work (shortly after the school run) and often can't be arsed to drag her butt off the couch to say hello when we come home for lunch. She will pointedly turn her nose up at a lunch time trip to the garden if it's raining.
She is hyper mega super excited to see us in the evening (usually just after the school run).
Today though she's been left since just after the school run this morning until around 6:45pm. She was fast asleep. Casually stretched and yawned before the tail wagging kicked in!
She was far more interested in playing with the kids than voiding bladder or bowels and took some persuading to go out...
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`Love me love my dog` can be a big ask.
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what about uncontrolled sharks at the crag?
bellowing power screams and swearing; frightening all the tourists etc.
I blame the owners (agan)
I saw (20 min - I was hooked) the worst film I've probably ever saw last night...
Sharknado2....
(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BOTE2OTk4MTQzNV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODUxOTM3OQ@@._V1_SY317_CR6,0,214,317_AL_.jpg)
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mb1UE024WbU/VK8B2QCM97I/AAAAAAAABXc/IB_kIPOWgJo/s1600/dex4.jpg)
Delightful crag dog. Peaceful, patient, quiet, would wander over to nearby climbers for a stroke (he got lots - big brown eyes) then just trot back and flop on the mats.
Edit: Rach on the left is his owner, hence the acceptable sandwich interest.
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Fairly off-topic but I had to post it somewhere. If there is anything that is going to make me leave Canada it's anthropomorphism gone mad (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/emma-paulsen-b-c-dog-walker-gets-jail-time-for-animal-cruelty-1.2935040). Some of the comments are truly insane.
OTT for you. I could only find one anthromorpism and most of the comments seemed to suggest jail time was disproportionate. I would be hiding the kitchen knives if I had a son that had the characteristics of a Rottweiller / Husky cross.
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Yeah there are a scattering of sensible comments. But how far did you read down? - there are a vast number suggesting the woman should have got 6 years not 6 months. Plus lots of people describing their pets as "children".
As to "anthropomorphism": to me the whole notion of handing out jail time, for what should just be a civil dispute involving mishandling people's property, implies elevating dogs to a near-human legal status.
What scares me is the extent to which this could effect someone in a self-defence situation involving dogs. James (6) had his arm bitten by a pit bull a few months ago. If that happens again, and I kill the dog in a rage, do I go to prison? My impression is that in Canada many people would think "yes".
Puts all non vegetarians in an interesting position! ;)
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As to "anthropomorphism": to me the whole notion of handing out jail time, for what should just be a civil dispute involving mishandling people's property, implies elevating dogs to a near-human legal status.
What scares me is the extent to which this could effect someone in a self-defence situation involving dogs. James (6) had his arm bitten by a pit bull a few months ago. If that happens again, and I kill the dog in a rage, do I go to prison? My impression is that in Canada many people would think "yes".
Really sorry to hear that about James. I got bitten by an Alsation as a kid and was nervy of strange dogs for quite a while. Breeds like that which have form when it comes to attacking people should be outlawed as pets. Obviously with killing an animal there is a spectrum from cruelty, neglect, self defence to legal extermination. My understanding is that a farmer is within their rights to shoot an unsupervised dog on their land but a prison sentence can be doled out for cruelty.
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As to "anthropomorphism": to me the whole notion of handing out jail time, for what should just be a civil dispute involving mishandling people's property, implies elevating dogs to a near-human legal status.
What scares me is the extent to which this could effect someone in a self-defence situation involving dogs. James (6) had his arm bitten by a pit bull a few months ago. If that happens again, and I kill the dog in a rage, do I go to prison? My impression is that in Canada many people would think "yes".
Really sorry to hear that about James. I got bitten by an Alsation as a kid and was nervy of strange dogs for quite a while.
My father had is leg mauled by a farm dog when I was on his shoulders (aged 4 or 5) and I think that has shaped my general indifference/dislike of dogs... (which has faded over the years..)
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What scares me is the extent to which this could effect someone in a self-defence situation involving dogs. James (6) had his arm bitten by a pit bull a few months ago. If that happens again, and I kill the dog in a rage, do I go to prison? My impression is that in Canada many people would think "yes".
Sorry to hear that. What should happen, of course, is that the dog's owner goes to prison for assault with a deadly weapon.
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What scares me is the extent to which this could effect someone in a self-defence situation involving dogs. James (6) had his arm bitten by a pit bull a few months ago. If that happens again, and I kill the dog in a rage, do I go to prison? My impression is that in Canada many people would think "yes".
Sorry to hear that. What should happen, of course, is that the dog's owner goes to prison for assault with a deadly weapon.
Ah yes, but of course lovely well behaved Tyson doesnt normally do those things...
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It's the 99% of dog owners that give the 1% a bad press.
I had a right go at a hipster twat who had his husky cross running around in the park last summer (yes lots of kids about etc) and it was *my problem* and the kids should just chill out and respect his rights etc etc etc
he's a message from the rest of the world to dog owners. not everyone likes dogs and if your dog isn't on a lead and muzzled if it's a large / dangerous dog you're basically an antisocial cvnt.
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I (almost) agree with sloper here. I go for walks on my lunch break and dogs frequently run up to me and quite often jump up at me, with no form of apology or attempt to stop them from the owners. That, coupled with the discarded shit bags thrown into bushes or over hedges, makes me wonder if there are any responsible dog owners at all...
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Often when I meet dogs out, the owners are quite careful and call their dogs back or shout them down if they try to jump up - at which point I usually say "no
it's fine" and encourage the dog because I'd be trying to pet it anyway.
Obviously it's a world of fucking difference between someone retaliating towards a dog that's just attacked a child, and someone letting several innocent dogs die through neglect - as le shark has rightly pointed out.
I didn't read further down the comments but I'd say 6 months is far too lenient yes.
Fiend (strict omnivore)
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I (almost) agree with sloper here.
Me too. I need to take a shower .. for about a year .... in bleach.
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It's the 99% of dog owners that give the 1% a bad press.
Did you mean to have your statistic this way round?
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... I go for walks on my lunch break and dogs frequently run up to me and quite often jump up at me, with no form of apology or attempt to stop them from the owners.
I bet "he's never done that before" and (my favourite) "it's your fault for being nervous".
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what should just be a civil dispute involving mishandling people's property, implies elevating dogs to a near-human legal status.
Except dogs, as well as being property, are also sentient creatures. If want to I can pile my all property up in a big heap and set fire to it., doesn't mean I can add my cats to the top of the bonfire.
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Exactly. The retort from these kind of muddle-headed people would be that abattoirs kill humanely. Though what they really mean is "I don't give a shit about farm animals".
That is complete and utter bullshit and you know it. It's almost trivial to point it out but there are clearly moral differences between killing for food and letting animals die for no reason, between being complicit in a meat industry that at least should have some standards and watchdogs for animal welfare and having animals in your trust and letting them die, and between killing livestock raised to be eaten and letting animals die in the context of them having owners who love them and are devoted to them.
N.B. This is not a justification of omnivorism (my canine teeth do that eloquently enough) nor of the meat industry which no doubt has many flaws in animal welfare, just pointing out the wrong comparison.
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I am no expert obviously, but my sense is that the law in the UK is far more sensible on this kind of stuff. Do you really think in a similar case in UK - dogs asphyxiating from being left too long in hot car - there would really be jail time?
I can't find an example but I think this guy came close
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048380/Sergeant-Ian-Craven-left-police-dogs-die-hot-car-spared-jail.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048380/Sergeant-Ian-Craven-left-police-dogs-die-hot-car-spared-jail.html)
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Except dogs, as well as being property, are also sentient creatures. If want to I can pile my all property up in a big heap and set fire to it., doesn't mean I can add my cats to the top of the bonfire.
Good point.
I think anyone who thinks this is an overly-harsh sentence for animal abuse is grossly underestimating how devoted pets and owners can be to each other (I've witnessed this in numerous friends and family), and therefore the hurt and pain caused to the owners, IN ADDITION to the suffering of the animals. Even if you callously take the animal suffering out of the equation, the hurt caused to 6 owners is significant in itself. Bringing in the property point - if someone takes away property from someone else, they can rightly expect punishment for depriving that person of their property. In this case, this woman has deprived 6 people of their "property" AND caused them a lot of grief in the progress (AND the suffering), so she can rightly expect punishment.
Edit: before anyone who gets the wrong idea about dog behaviour, I obviously agree with condemning poor ownership, and I also agree that retaliation is justifiable if an animal attacks someone - I'm not sure that lethal retaliation would be justifiable for a bite (but also I don't think it would automatically deserve a harsh sentence), but equally if the only way to STOP the attack was to kill the animal in the process then sobeit.
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Wasn't there the guy who was sent down for grilling someone's goldfish at a house party?
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I'm somewhat with Fiend with regard to blatant and gratuitous cruelty to animals being deserving of some punishment (but am not vegetarian, but do make at least some effort to avoid buying factory farmed meat)
But regard to defending oneself - or even more so children - against attacks by uncontrolled dangerous animals, I would have no qualms at all about using any degree of force/violence/weaponry I had available. Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight for attacking livestock and I've not met many people who have a problem with that; do sheep deserve more protection than children?
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I think several of you are missing the point tomtom alluded to regarding non-vegetarianism, and also muddling up your personal biases with the pragmatic requirements of human life. The logical end of the road that begins with excessive sentimentality toward canines are those disgusting attacks on scientists carrying out animal experiments that flare up every few years.
To simply point that dogs, as a class of property, are qualitatively different from say books, televisions or cars is not in anyway to try and accord them 'near human' legal status, nor can I see how it possibly violates the 'pragmatic requirements of human life'. Believing that sentient animals deserve some degree of protection from arbitrary cruelty is not 'excessive sentimentality.'
As to the non-vegetarianism issue, personally, I haven't eaten meat for thirty years.
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I haven' t read all the pages but if this is about bringing puppies to the crag I'm up for that. What more could one ask for rock and puppies, well maybe kittens.
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So are dogs 'allowed' at the crag or what?
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But regard to defending oneself - or even more so children - against attacks by uncontrolled dangerous animals, I would have no qualms at all about using any degree of force/violence/weaponry I had available. Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight for attacking livestock and I've not met many people who have a problem with that; do sheep deserve more protection than children?
This is perhaps a more pertinent issue, not least because it relates to both the dogs' behaviour / at the crag issue AND habrich's concerns, without going off on any dietary tangents.
As I said before I agree with that about defense. About retaliation (in the heat of the moment, rather than calculated revenge), I'm not sure about what level is morally justified....but I AM sure that even the most violent retaliation against a dog would be vastly more justifiable - and thus vastly less punishable, if at all - than leaving 6 innocent dogs to die in a car.
P.S. I also wrote a reply about the "The logical end of the road that begins with excessive sentimentality toward canines are those disgusting attacks on scientists carrying out animal experiments that flare up every few years." tangent and UKB crashed and swallowed it, but since that sentence is clearly fallacious bollox I'm not even re-writing it fully - world of difference between pointless cruelty/neglect and experiments that may be incidentally cruel and have some clear purpose / benefit to humanity enough said.
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I haven' t read all the pages but if this is about bringing puppies to the crag I'm up for that. What more could one ask for rock and puppies, well maybe kittens.
You're always welcome to get your puppies out at the crag Webbo. ;)
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Meanwhile in Yosemite... (http://instagram.com/p/yV8itcGdMo)
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#cock
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Dog are, by and large, pains in the arse. The smaller they are the more annoying they get. Some bigger dogs are OK - collies for instance.
They're just such smug individuals. Walking round with self-satisfied faces - they just know that they are "it". Particularly small, rat-type dogs.
People treat them like family members, and yet if you had a member of the family whose social skills were so abyssmal they wouldn't leave the house without careful supervision, let alone being let off the lead to run around as they pleased.
And so demanding!
If dogs were humans, they wouldn't have any mates.
If dogs could choose their own haircut they would all get topknots.
They eat their own shit ffs.
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I like dogs, but not sure I could a whole one.
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I like dogs, but not sure I could a whole one.
Do they make you feel a but rough?
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Farmers are afaik still allowed in the UK to shoot dogs on sight
Are they still allowed to do it if they have beta?
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habrich whatever you do, do not read Mike Owen's blog. Your head will explode.
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There is a lot of negativity about dogs going on. :(
I have two. I take them to the crag, but generally try keep them away from busy areas. I pick up their poop. People come over, stroke them and give them treats. I'm definitely biased but I think they make my life (and others) better. :)
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Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.
However i have often met people who should have been left in a hot car with the windows tightly closed.
I dont think my dogs have ever annoyed anyone, only rabbits.
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There is a lot of negativity about dogs going on. :(
Yeah - its kind of gone that way which is a shame...
Despite having had bad moments with dogs - I'm generally OK with them and most are great.. EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old :)
Mostly, its non climbers dogs that are the pain in the arse (or habitual food thieves/bouldering mat copulaters to be more accurate) - and certain crags (Rubicon springs to mind) where there are more walkers with dogs etc.. are worse for this.
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Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.
Sorry - but someone elses dog pinching my grub would (and has) very much annoy me...
I don't like being jumped up at by dogs either...
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EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old :)
It's always nice to find yourself in like-minded company ;) :lol:
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Admit to being a dog person and having had them all my life. Having thought long and hard (well about 30 secs), and I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.
However i have often met people who should have been left in a hot car with the windows tightly closed.
I dont think my dogs have ever annoyed anyone, only rabbits.
None so blind that will not see.
I've lsot track of the number of times I've had trouble with dogs at crags, I can recall the day when some medical students from Sheffield were bouldering at the Burbage South bolders and had their fucking great Doberman running about (the kids who were out with us were all about 1 year old at the time) including over the picnic blanket and their twattishness wasn't limited to that, they'd stuffed a bag of shit in a crack.
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I've lsot track of the number of times I've had trouble with dogs at crags,
So dogs are a good judge of character then. :tease:
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EG Sharks dog is great - just dodders about being old :)
S/He's doing his best to be endearing and make friends so he can score a lift home when he gets left behind.
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:agree:
habrich whatever you do, do not read Mike Owen's blog. Your head will explode.
I read that yesterday and thought I'd slipped into a parallel universe. Mental.
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So dogs are a good judge of character then. :tease:
I think they are. If the owner is a prick, the dog is all too often badly behaved. Dogs with bad owners can be anything from a nuisance to plain tragic: if anyone has seen a heavily pregnant sheep die after being chased by some lumpen hound having fun, as the fuckwit owner is incapable of controlling it, they would understand. On the other hand, dogs with responsible owners have made some of my most fun and memorable days at the crag.
Its worth say too many climbers see themselves as responsible but think things like access rules or respect for other crag users dont apply to them, so in fact they are the opposite. It all encourages folk to tar the good owners with the same brush. Above all you can't blame a dog for being a dog, any fault for me after problems is always on the owner.
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Indeed, how many times have climbers taken dogs to crags when the signs are up saying 'no dogs', there have been dogs at Bamford about 50% of the times I've been there, most dog owners simply can't accept that a lot of people don't like dogs and don't want dogs running up to them slavering, it's not that they don't know this its just that they couldn't give a fuck.
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.".... there have been dogs at Bamford about 50% of the times I've been there, "
[\quote]
I've been to Bamford more often than I can remember and only seen dogs on a minority of times and nearly always (being interested in access I do ask politely) it was local walkers who say they have walked their dogs up there for years. Only once did I see climbers with dogs. So.I seriously suspect either you sweat some kind of natural 'dog-nip' or much more likely you are making shit up again.
"most dog owners simply can't accept that a lot of people don't like dogs and don't want dogs running up to them slavering, it's not that they don't know this its just that they couldn't give a fuck." complete nonsense in the context of our crags... most climbers who own dogs and take them climbing seem to me to be pretty concerned not to piss off other crag users.
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.".... there have been dogs at Bamford about 50% of the times I've been there, "
[\quote]
I've been to Bamford more often than I can remember and only seen dogs on a minority of times and nearly always (being interested in access I do ask politely) it was local walkers who say they have walked their dogs up there for years. Only once did I see climbers with dogs. So.I seriously suspect either you sweat some kind of natural 'dog-nip' or much more likely you are making shit up again.
"most dog owners simply can't accept that a lot of people don't like dogs and don't want dogs running up to them slavering, it's not that they don't know this its just that they couldn't give a fuck." complete nonsense in the context of our crags... most climbers who own dogs and take them climbing seem to me to be pretty concerned not to piss off other crag users.
Ahh, the old you're a liar comeback, a classic, well I think you're making up your statement, wow, we've really moved the debate on haven't we?
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I cant remember a single instance of an annoying dog at the crag. Plenty that have nicked my food and, heaven forbid, jumped up at me in a playful manner; but not one that has annoyed me.
I dont think my dogs have ever annoyed anyone, only rabbits.
Putting these 2 sentences together, I suspect your dogs have annoyed many people! If a dog nicks my food it annoys me. If a dog tries to nick my food it annoys me. If a dog looks like it's gonna try to nick my food, thus forcing me to hide it all away in the bottom of my bag every time I want to have a snack it annoys me. If a dog covers my rope/pad in mud it annoys me. Well behaved dogs (e.g. as someone's mentioned, Simon's dog Pip) are fine, poorly behaved dogs are only endearing to their owners and those in a very good and forgiving mood, not the average person. [Obviously I don't know if your dogs are well behaved or not, but I can assure you than 9/10 of the people I climb with find dogs nicking their food annoying. Whoever said that people normally just avoid confrontation is correct - the fact that you don't get told your dog is annoying doesn't mean that it isn't annoying!]
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Best crag dog experience- Shark's son chucking a down jacket over Pip's head and her just sitting there motionless for ages. :lol:
Worst crag dog experience- American guy taking a crap in the woods, his dog following him, digging it up and eating it, then returning to the crag and puking it all over somebody's rope. :sick:
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Habrich, you've made YOUR personal bias very clear.
Hopefully others have made it clear in response that your horrible and regrettable experience would justifiy hostility / retaliation (just as it seems accepted for farmers to shoot dogs that are killing sheep), and that would be a world away from killing dogs that-have-not-just-actively-harmed-someone (since you don't like the word "innocent"), and the punishment that person received.
Cheque, loving that Best Crag Dog experience story. Less so the Worst one.
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Finally, I hope this displays:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1555286_10153104067283982_3181126092784519962_n.jpg?oh=fabcbb462265173849be3f1261e27245&oe=552272C4&__gda__=1433328379_0a68eca16162da5b87e3c59555e272f0)
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:D
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.".... there have been dogs at Bamford about 50% of the times I've been there, "
[\quote]
Ahh, the old you're a liar comeback,
Ahh, the old 'lets pretend Im falsely accused of being a liar to avoid explaining the situation' rhetorical gambit . Firstly, I didnt accuse you straight out of telling porkies, I questioned my very different experience at the crag with (slightly mean) verbal play, in effect positing maybe exaggeration was at play on your part. Since you wish to deal with debate lets overlook my attempt at a humourous prod and maybe lets try and work it out. Bamford is one of the few places climbers seemed to me to be avoiding taking dogs (unlike the locals who walk their dogs on the scarp edge above). In contrast Stanage End in my experience sees way more climbers with dogs in defiance of access requests. Now I've not been to Bamford in the last year and not so often in the last three. I know its never going to become some kind of dog preferred venue (just like I know you dont actually smell of dog nip ). Yet there must be an explanation. Given the attitude of the landowner to climbers and dogs and my interest in this subject, I can't help but wonder why my close links to the BMC access reps haven't generated noticable developments.
Bamford access notes are here and as the crag base isn't on a public footpath (unlike Stanage, End), no dogs means just that or we risk access worsening under CRoW:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/ViewCrag.aspx?id=344 (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/ViewCrag.aspx?id=344)
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I've spent a few days climbing at Bamford since September, I dunno maybe ten in total - never seen a dog there. Even on the busier days and nearer the parking end but I will say that I was totally unaware that dogs are frowned upon. This may be due to me not having a dog and therefore not looking for information like that, I guess that's quite possible.
I'll happily pet a dog at the crag but I really don't want a dog slobbering in front of me when I'm eating my lunch. I'm too polite to tell the owner to ask it to move - but after reading this thread, I'm obviously not alone in this and I think in future I'll man up.
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I hate dogs
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I think it's clear from this thread that there is a generally silent majority of people who think that dogs are rubbish. They are gross, slavering, dirty, smelly, loud and obnoxious creatures with no social skills whatsoever.
The problem is that dog owners seem to think that everybody shares their inexplicable enthusiasm for the wretched specimens. They think dogs are gods that walk amongst us, and the worst bit is: the dogs fucking know it.
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Swap "dogs" for "kids" and you might be right.
Anyway as long as the silent so-called majority stay silent (apart from politely and firmly requesting dog owners to get a fucking grip if their dog is harassing people), that's just fine.
Dense: Even Bighands dog? Rubbish taste in bringing sticks to throw, I swear it brought me bracken when I met the lads at Hunter Stones.
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Swap "dogs" for "kids" and you might be right.
Kids grow up.
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I have half hatred for Ronnie. I stand there saying to him " You want me throw the stick don't you? Do you think I'm stupid?" I'm pretty sure he's nodding at this point
But no on the whole I honestly can't stand dogs. Don't even get me started on cats!
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I have half hatred for Ronnie. I stand there saying to him " You want me throw the stick don't you? Do you think I'm stupid?" I'm pretty sure he's nodding at this point
But no on the whole I honestly can't stand dogs. Don't even get me started on cats!
What how you love them and if anyone says anything bad about them, they are dead meat.
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They aren't as bad as cats though.
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I think this summarises and hopefully concludes the debate better than any of us can:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/dogs-win-worst-pet-for-14th-year-in-row-2013091379444 (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/dogs-win-worst-pet-for-14th-year-in-row-2013091379444)
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Swap "dogs" for "kids" and you might be right.
Kids grow up.
Fiend is living proof you're wrong.
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Dog's that nick your lunch = Shithouses.
Dog's that nick your mates lunch = Legends.
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Fiend is living proof you're wrong.
His dislike for dogs and alledged immaturity hasn't reached the point where he sees dogs that are not even there. Forget dog nip maybe you are a dog medium. Dog lovers would pay a fortune to communicate with their ex-pets you know. Still not sure why dog ghosts would be attacted in such numbers to the base of climbs at Bamford though.
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I love dogs..
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I'm not a dog owner, some of my friends are. :whistle:
I actually like dogs at crags. Never had or seen an issue with them.
Only problem with a dog I've seen was at the kids playpark at the ponderosa. Some junkies walked by and an obviously disobedient staffie ran in through the gate. Ran up to a father playing with his 2 year old, the junkies were shouting and dog not responding. Nowt bad happened, but the father did freakout, guess he didn't know how to deal with dogs. As he was obviously scared the dog responded to this and chased him. I stepped in with confident body language and a quick shout, the dog backed off (i was en route to grab its collar and eject it) the junkies tried to make out it wasn't normally like that, but I wasn't going to go further than telling them in no uncertain terms they needed to keep that dog under control as they obviously didn't give a shit.
Never seen this sort of behaviour at the crag, wouldn't be afraid of saying something to the owners if I did. Have met some wonderful dogs, and their keepers, at crags. Probably due to the selection bias of people willing to put the time and effort into appreciating the great outdoors ~ = willing to spend the time and effort to correctly train station their dogs. Watch this, next time I'm out I'll have my lunch knicked now out of some karmic realignment jizzle.
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I think it's clear from this thread that there is a generally silent majority of people who think that dogs are rubbish. BOLLOX
Theysome are gross, slavering, dirty, smelly, loud and obnoxious creatures with no social skills whatsoever. some are the complete opposite,must like humans
Themy problem is that i think somedog owners seem to think that everybody shares their inexplicable enthusiasm for the wretched specimens. i think that they think dogs are gods that walk amongst us, and the worst bit is: the dogs fucking know it. maybe they're so intelligent that they're just acting up because they know it winds you up?
Sorry Will. I love you man but this utter horse dog shit. Fair enough it's what you think, but don't write an abstract for a thesis based on the heavily biased data gleaned from a bunch of people who've had a bad experience with a dog. A silent majority? Pah!
:ras:
Ps, i have no agenda here. I haven't got a dog. I never have. I probably never will.
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Nowt bad happened, but the father did freakout, guess he didn't know how to deal with dogs.
Typical ignorant non dog owner. How to correctly behave around our canine overlords really should be in the national curriculum.
Re: Andy: :P
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Have we mentioned incessant whining and hammering around the top of the cliff when folk are at the Mauvais Pas?
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Nowt bad happened, but the father did freakout, guess he didn't know how to deal with dogs.
Typical ignorant non dog owner. How to correctly behave around our canine overlords really should be in the national curriculum.
Re: Andy: :P
Quite, the attempts to shift the blame onto the victim are a very good indicator of the fuckwitted arrogance of the average dog owner, followed by the close second 'blame the deed not the breed' when a child is killed by a dangerous dog.
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Oh good. UKB is the same as UKC.
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Oh good. UKB is the same as UKC.
Bollocks it is.
I can call you a twat and not have the post deleted, you can call me a wanker and not have your post deleted, and we can both call Jasper the poster boy for Loreal and not have our posts deleted.
But then again: what have you done on grit?
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To try and draw some middle ground here...
Its probably been seen by all here - but the BMC's video on dogs and dog ownership flags up some important points well I think:
http://vimeo.com/user7465672/onedog (http://vimeo.com/user7465672/onedog)
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I also love dogs, hopefully my fierce beast will be enough to keep the silent majority away from the problem I'm trying!
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I also love dogs, hopefully my fierce beast will be enough to keep the silent majority away from the problem I'm trying!
I just rely on cigar smoke and a few right wing comments.
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I like most animals,humans are the ones I have doubts about. My daughter has 3 lovely dogs who I am more than happy to spend time with, however she has ruined then so there is no way I would take them out climbing with me even though I am sure just me and them and some rock would be great.
I just to take Aylish out with climbing with me when she was little girl and I'm sure ruined many a persons day by her incessant cries of " Dad can I have a sausage roll"
I know it ruined many of my attempts at things.
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I like most animals,humans are the ones I have doubts about. My daughter has 3 lovely dogs who I am more than happy to spend time with, however she has ruined then so there is no way I would take them out climbing with me even though I am sure just me and them and some rock would be great.
I just to take Aylish out with climbing with me when she was little girl and I'm sure ruined many a persons day by her incessant cries of " Dad can I have a sausage roll"
I know it ruined many of my attempts at things.
We were all kids once upon a time, not dogs. I find the comparison completely bizarre.
You can leave your pet at home since it is capable of looking after itself, (unless it's just a wee pup ), but you can't leave your child at home.
I know kids aren't furry and therefore strangers find their whining annoying rather than endearing, but that's just one of the quirks of the human condition.
Seriously though I don't mind dogs or people as long as they aren't all up in my shit. If either are I'd deal with them the same way and that's with absolutely no tolerance whatsoever, even though if it's a human there's likely to be a decent back story as to why they're behaving that way, so I should probably be more tolerant of them.
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I was trying(badly) to be a bit tongue in cheek.
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Yes but did she get a sausage roll?
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I was trying(badly) to be a bit tongue in cheek.
I got the tongue in cheek bit, but i quoted you because I'm lazy.
I've heard a lot of people complaing about kiddies and that's because they are annoying ;D
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I haven't read the whole topic, I can only say that these have been some of the best climbing moments of my life.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/16400797036_e83e303e3d_s.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qZhnyG)phobe macchina (https://flic.kr/p/qZhnyG) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/people/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/16425823652_f7dff82c7b_s.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/r2uD75)image (https://flic.kr/p/r2uD75) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/people/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
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Quite, the attempts to shift the blame onto the victim are a very good indicator of the fuckwitted arrogance of the average dog owner, followed by the close second 'blame the deed not the breed' when a child is killed by a dangerous dog.
Bit much? I really don't think this is the attitude of an 'average' dog owner.
Also, how often is a persons whole day out ruined by a dog? Sometimes things wind me up at the crag. Kids, midges, bellowing climbers with their shirts off, even dogs but i try no to let it ruin the day. To be honest I usually get frustrated because i'm climbing like an idiot and then blame they closest source of irritation rather than admit i'm climbing badly.
The crags are for everyone to enjoy with or without dogs, with or without kids, with or without shirts etc etc
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Never seen this sort of behaviour at the crag, wouldn't be afraid of saying something to the owners if I did.
I've been bouldering at Lower Tier at the Roaches and seen a dog (can't remember breed, but it lab size) madly chasing down some sheep. The dog did not respond to any strict commands; "No, STOP, etc", so I tried a "here boy, come here!" at which point it obeyed and ran up to me and stopped by my feet. At this point I looked around at half a dozen people giving me the evil eyes who assumed it was my dog! I grabbed it by the collar and walked along lower tier, under more evil eyes until I got to Valkyrie area where someone belaying claimed ownership. I gave them an earful and said to keep the dog under control, and they said he is usually good and just stays put!
I do like dogs, but don't think taking them out with you when you are doing routes is appropriate. I've seen a lot of dogs looking very distressed when both climbers are up the climb. Bouldering it's just about tolerable, provided your dog is under your control all the time.
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Quite, the attempts to shift the blame onto the victim are a very good indicator of the fuckwitted arrogance of the average dog owner, followed by the close second 'blame the deed not the breed' when a child is killed by a dangerous dog.
Bit much? I really don't think this is the attitude of an 'average' dog owner.
Also, how often is a persons whole day out ruined by a dog? Sometimes things wind me up at the crag. Kids, midges, bellowing climbers with their shirts off, even dogs but i try no to let it ruin the day. To be honest I usually get frustrated because i'm climbing like an idiot and then blame they closest source of irritation rather than admit i'm climbing badly.
The crags are for everyone to enjoy with or without dogs, with or without kids, with or without shirts etc etc
When you've got a frightened and upset child because some cvnt can't control their dog and you have to go home that pretty much ruins your whole day.
The quasi equation of children and dogs is just an extreme form of wanton fuckwittery.
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Quite, the attempts to shift the blame onto the victim are a very good indicator of the fuckwitted arrogance of the average dog owner, followed by the close second 'blame the deed not the breed' when a child is killed by a dangerous dog.
Bit much? I really don't think this is the attitude of an 'average' dog owner.
Also, how often is a persons whole day out ruined by a dog? Sometimes things wind me up at the crag. Kids, midges, bellowing climbers with their shirts off, even dogs but i try no to let it ruin the day. To be honest I usually get frustrated because i'm climbing like an idiot and then blame they closest source of irritation rather than admit i'm climbing badly.
The crags are for everyone to enjoy with or without dogs, with or without kids, with or without shirts etc etc
When you've got a frightened and upset child because some cvnt can't control their dog and you have to go home that pretty much ruins your whole day.
The quasi equation of children and dogs is just an extreme form of wanton fuckwittery.
Well I suppose that's fair enough. That would ruin your day. Also I don't agree with dogs = kids argument either. Clearly the two different.
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Yes but did she get a sausage roll?
And an ice cream.
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Yes but did she get a sausage roll?
And an ice cream.
If I come climbing with you and whine and moan (more than usual) will I get a sausage roll and an ice cream??
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Yes but did she get a sausage roll?
And an ice cream.
If I come climbing with you and whine and moan (more than usual) will I get a sausage roll and an ice cream??
Of course as long as I can tape the sausage roll in your mouth. :-*
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Good point tomtom, I'm sure webbo rightly thinks I'm a cunt, but I could be on my best behaviour if there were sausage rolls and ice cream involved.
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Good point tomtom, I'm sure webbo rightly thinks I'm a cunt, but I could be on my best behaviour if there were sausage rolls and ice cream involved.
No I think you a right cunt. ;D I will let you both know when I'm out next and I'll bring a picnic hamper.
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And a dog or 3.
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Yes but did she get a sausage roll?
And an ice cream.
If I come climbing with you and whine and moan (more than usual) will I get a sausage roll and an ice cream??
Of course as long as I can tape the sausage roll in your mouth. :-*
AND the nurses outfit?
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I never go anywhere without it.
Even the dogs got one.
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BowWow!
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Fairly off-topic but I had to post it somewhere. If there is anything that is going to make me leave Canada it's anthropomorphism gone mad (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/emma-paulsen-b-c-dog-walker-gets-jail-time-for-animal-cruelty-1.2935040). Some of the comments are truly insane.
And then the dogs started acting out their anthropomorphic role and protesting at being locked in the car....
This is why you don't lock your dog in the car... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe6XQJM-TdA#)
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
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godamn hippies.
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Next time?
Don't eat the mushrooms.
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Fuck me - thats a yearly total of crag oddness in ONE DAY!
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Shirley this calls for military action, we need to stamp this stuff out before it takes over.
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This thread could have been the antithesis of DFBWGC?
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Fuck me - thats a yearly total of crag oddness in ONE DAY!
It was truly bonkers.
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Shirley this calls for military action, we need to stamp this stuff out before it takes over.
Round them up in a field and bomb the bastards...
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What about cats at the crag?
(http://i.imgur.com/alHQ6CE.jpg)
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Brilliant! if Nathan Barley was a climbing sitcom set in 2015.......
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Who did you punch first?
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Good to know it's always that way :)
The bloke in the military jacket is quite a nice fellow.
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Ours is a broad church.
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untied and seemingly ownerless dogs .. chasing one mother carrying a baby
Who did you punch first?
Shoot first, punch later in that case.
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And hope you've got another set in clips, reloading is a ball ache esp when you've got cold fingers.
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I happened to find myself in the Bishop area with work this weekend and the scene I witnessed at the Buttermilks on Sunday would have made Habrich foam at the mouth in incandescent rage... Not only did I witness a multitude of untied and seemingly ownerless dogs running with gay abandon across everyone's pads/packs/possessions etc. and chasing one mother carrying a baby, I was also witness to the following crag crimes:
A three person yoga session held next to the classic warm up boulder by the top car park (notably, actually adding to the overall aesthetic, which was some recompense);
A high proportion of men wearing bright and garish Lycra;
A wandering minstrel brandishing a ukulele;
Someone actually using a laptop beneath a boulder - you know, just chillin';
Huge step ladder use;
A bloke bouldering in a 'Sgnt Pepper' brightly coloured military jacket with epaulettes and fur trim; and most implausibly,
Someone having a jam session on a double bass...
The bouldering's still magic though.
Who did you punch first?
Luckily I was suitably blissed out from keenly observing the group yoga session...
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can anyone argue with this basic as rule for dogs at crags? coming from a duff climber but long term dog owner (not daddy to a fur baby i might add)
dog is always on a lead. first point, dogs will do stupid and unpredictable stuff no matter how much you think your pooch is different. Dogs on pads, the belayer also being in charge of the dog, even running about like dicks is a safety issue, dont even think about adding kids being knocked over or bitten nobody wants or can excuse that.
with that as a basic point, i use a ground screw which combined with an extendable lead means you can limit or even position the dog under your charge quite accurately. no brainer, £5 tops and hassle almost gone.
combined with this the dog should always have shade/coat, food/water, a pigs ear or something to keep them busy/happy/out of the way. midges also ruin dogs eye areas in scotland but as a responsible dog owner you know about the shit thats specific to your area or dog
if you cant satisfy all of the above, sorry mutt you cant come climbing, get your sister or whatever to dog sit, leave them at home for whatever you feel works for your dog, whatever (theres another debate for the dog owners there...)
so simple
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I like dogs. If yours gets in my grid I'll kick fuck out of it. Teach it not to do it.
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PS dog owners: I'm lovely. Very friendly, love kids. So if i start running all over your stuff, licking your face, sticking my arsehole all over and possibly nicking your snap, please feel free to do the same.
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I like dogs. If yours gets in my grid I'll kick fuck out of it. Teach it not to do it.
\o/ an Underground rant... It's been a while!
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I like humans. But sometimes they get in my grid and I have to kick them out of it.
I know far more humans than dogs, that I would't allow at the crag.
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:)
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Saw a really disturbing dog attack at the crag on Sunday where a Jack Russell was savaged by a bigger dog - some kind of bull terrier cross I think although I'd struggle to pick it out of a line out. About eight people were really trying to get the dog to release its jaws (including the owner screaming at it, getting his hands in its mouth, kicking, punching it) but it wouldn't let go for several minutes. Don't know how it all started as I was belaying a little way up the crag - the Jack Russell did snap at another dog earlier in the day so don't know if it did the same and provoked a horrifying response.
The only thing that got the dog to release its bite was a combination of pulling its front legs apart and levering its jaws open with a clipstick. This is worth knowing in case of ever being unfortunate enough to be involved in something like this. Makes me very cautious about any dog that can lock on with its jaws like that and I think I'm now of the opinion that they should be properly banned like they are in Australia.
Hope the Jack Russell survives - commiserations to all involved if anyone reads this. It was a really horrible thing to see and hear and must be infinitely worse for the dog owners.
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I can imagine that the owners of the bull terrier are blaming the other dog for not knowing how to behave around dogs or some other sort of fuckwitted excuse.
Of course I could be wrong and we could hear they've done the sensible thing and had the dog destroyed but that would require a microgram of intelligence so we can probably rule that out.
I hope that the owners of the jack russell are insured and that the insurers look to recover the costs from the owner of the other dog.
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Makes me very cautious about any dog that can lock on with its jaws like that and I think I'm now of the opinion that they should be properly banned like they are in Australia.
Agreed. There is no possible justification for owning a dog capable of this. And why would you even want to own a dog capable of doing this?
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Never rule out stupidity.
The latest craze at the moment seems to be wolf style cross breeds. There's a hipster twat near us who has one and allow sit to run off the lead in the park oblivious to the large number of young children playing and that quel surprise when the kids are throwing balls and so on the dog bounds over towards them.
The suggestion that he might put his dog on the lead was, in his words well out of order and that I was being a fascist. I'm currently trying to be less confrontational so I politely set out my views i.e. that he was a fucking antisocial moron when the temptation was to grab him by the throat.
Just a quick one, which moron is going to pop up and say all dogs are equally dangerous and it's all about the owners etc? Come one, I know there's a fucktard around.
woof.
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When living in France I saw a yapy little dog, off the lead, having a go at a husky-esque breed that was tied up. The husky did nothing until the little dog was within striking distance, then in one swift movement went straight for the throat of the little dog, cue lots of blood, one limp little dog and a screaming owner. Horrible.
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Makes me very cautious about any dog that can lock on with its jaws like that and I think I'm now of the opinion that they should be properly banned like they are in Australia.
Agreed. There is no possible justification for owning a dog capable of this. And why would you even want to own a dog capable of doing this?
From his expression, I think the owner of the dog that mauled the JR was utterly shocked. I'm not inclined to 'blame' him - he was a climber, I don't like to assume that he was deliberately walking around with a dog he knew to be dangerous. There's a lot of feeling out there re: dogs i.e. I owned a pit bull/Rottweiler etc and it had the sweetest temper, never hurt a fly, baby used to ride on it etc etc. People think certain breeds have been unfairly maligned on this basis. I like dogs, but it's true that all dogs have sharp teeth and predatory instincts, to some extent. But a dog that has an instinct to bite and not let go, and is too big and powerful to easily extract from what it's biting - just shouldn't be allowed to be out among people. It shouldn't be an available choice to buy or own - so if you see someone with one you know they're breaking the law, and can shop them.
Re: Sloper's point, I've been looking up about dangerous dogs having seen this horrible incident and wolf-style cross breeds are right up there, being big and powerful and with a strong prey drive. I'm not really one for government intervention on too many things but basically allowing people to walk around with animals like this is a bit like allowing people to walk around with weapons.
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Why should you not blame an antisocial reatrd for being an antisocial retard just because he's a climber?
The "'ooohhhh' I didn't know that the pit bull type/ husky / mastiff etc was a dangerous dog" (not in the sense of the 1991 legislation, just in the sense of the blindingly fucking obvious) is insult to injury when the inevitable occurs and a child (as it is usually a child) is savaged or killed.
Of course all dogs can bite, but let's be honest most of us would happily take on a collie, labrador, spaniel etc (let alone any number of the hairy rat type of toy dog) but I can't see anyone wanting to fight an enraged pit bull type etc.
There's a reason why certain dog types are disproptionately involved in serious / fatal attacks on humans: and drum roll please . . . it's beause they're inherently dangerous.
Habrich, yes, astonishing isn't it? Remarkably this happens after pretty much every serious incident.
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A quick google produced this
http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf
Yes, it's American, it's nearly 20 years out of date but seems pretty clear. Certain types of dogs are disproportionately lethal.
(the collie and spaniel apparently were involved in a fatal pack attack)
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The problem is that these things were bred to fight bears and bulls, so they're quite hard.
Obviously the following advice is for self defence, or defence of others and not if a lab has just eaten your salami sandwiches. You can theoretically pull it's legs apart sharply which can give it a heart attack, but is more likely to break it's knees which will make it let go, short of that you'd have to shove your thumbs through its eyes, although keys may work better if you had them to hand. In a climbing area your best bet night be to smash it's head in with a rock.
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Much better to make owners strictly liable in criminal law for injuries caused, that with compulsory licensing and insurance should be a good starting point.
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Yep you're right sloper.
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Haterz gonna hate
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8747/17077060831_72221047b7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/s23pei)Dyserth Waterfall Crag (https://flic.kr/p/s23pei) by metal arms (https://www.flickr.com/people/87719719@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7727/16455357854_db764f2fc7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/r571As)Dyserth Castle Slab (https://flic.kr/p/r571As) by metal arms (https://www.flickr.com/people/87719719@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7709/17051839726_e26ae64911_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rYP8SE)Paenmaen Head (https://flic.kr/p/rYP8SE) by metal arms (https://www.flickr.com/people/87719719@N03/), on Flickr
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Why? two dogs on the lead not doing anything or have I missed the remains of a savaged child / stolen pork pie debris ?
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Is that a public right of way that they're sleeping on? Me or my kids could quite easily trip over one of them and have our eye out on something or other.
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Did someone kill them for getting mud on the carpet?
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Why? two dogs on the lead not doing anything or have I missed the remains of a savaged child / stolen pork pie debris ?
Just wanted an excuse to post sleepy dog pictures. Neither has ever killed a child but both are terrible food thieves. I'd be more keen for people to keep their seagulls under control at crags though. I once lost a packet of crunch creams to one at Gogarth.
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Bit skinny for pitbulls aren't they?
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(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8747/17077060831_72221047b7_c.jpg)
let 'em lie
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:2thumbsup:
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Shit just seen on t'other channel that the Jack Russell I saw attacked had to be put down. The bull terrier was apparently on a lead too!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=613228 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=613228)
I'm genuinely disturbed by what I saw - really gutted for the owner. I will certainly give any bull-terrier type dog a very wide berth from now on.
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Horrible :(
That is a very thoughtful and forgiving post by the OP on there.
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If you do take your dog to the crag make sure they wear appropriate personal safety equipment...
(https://i.imgur.com/11PP5rz.jpg)
NB - Not my dog.
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The frog should be wearing high vis though...
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:'(
http://vimeo.com/122375452
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I seem to have something in my eye...
That's fucking beautiful.
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Nice evening at the Cornice last night rather marred by an out of control dog tearing up and down the crag/river. Chasing ducks, shaking wet fur on folks etc. Fricking annoying.
I witnessed at least one person suggest they put it on a lead which they dutifully ignored. In fact I think it was being encouraged to leap in the river to chase sticks.
Owner seemed utterly oblivious to any annoyance darling pooch might have been causing. Not sure what the status of the river is there (thinking SSSI, crayfish etc etc ), but I'm sure having a dog charge up and down it is not part of the code of conduct.
>:( :wank:
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I sympathise. I bloody love dogs and will always say hello to them at the crag. However that sounds really irritating and the owner a twat.
My current bugbear is barking dogs at the crag. I know its rarely all tranquillity and peace at sport crags but I could really do without some ****ing barking dog while I'm enjoying being outside!
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Barking, dropping sloberry sticks/balls on your rope/mat, chasing wildlife, crapping, shaking wet fur on you/ropes, generally jumping up at you... couple that with owners that think the sun shines out of the their backsides and that everyone at the crag will adore them...
Bah fckuing humbug.
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Climbers really are the least tolerant bunch of people these days.
Its only a dog, chasing a stick into a river and back. Suggest its doing a lot less damage to the valley than the climbers and other humans.
Did you fail to redpoint your route that day?
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I was there too - that was a total twat of a dog.
I can tolerate the tail wagging, friendly nuzzles and occasional excited bark, but letting the hound loose to do as it pleases and chase ducks up and down the river ain't on.
The other dogs there were so much better behaved, except when their owner had opened the mackerel tin and they got a bit greedy!
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I know it wasn't just me.
Gavin - I was in quite a tolerant mood actually, if he'd caught me on a bad day, I'd have been having strong words and giving the dog short shrift.
The same guy/dog was at Horseshit a couple of weeks ago, same story.
The owners twattish behavior was exemplified when he bellowed "Fuuuucccckkk Yoouuu" at the top of his voice after failing near the top of clarion call at the end of the evening.
As I understand it, I think its the Derbyshire Wildlife trust that own the woods/dale, which is a SSSI. Climbers are tolerated and I think the likes of Kris and the BMC access reps have had long discussions with regards the placing of bolts/unsightly belay chains etc etc.
Behaviour like this does not do our kind any favours what so ever.
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I'm really not a dog person at all but I don't mind dogs at the crag if they're just sat there or even if they come over to say hello. But I've experienced my lunch being eaten and mud walked all over my ropes and pads and it pisses me right off. Not to mention annoying barking. And the way the owners act like you've delivered them the greatest insult when you mention that they could keep it under control. "come away from that horrible man charlie." :wank:
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I grew up with dogs and have always been happy around them. But I was bitten by one in an unprovoked attach at a crag several years ago and it has definitely me more uncomfortable around dogs that are not under a modicum of control.
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Slightly off topic but the Bellenderitis at the Cornice seems to have grown this year and become contagious.
Not sure when it became the norm to block the path with your gear and rope and expect people to walk round it but have seen this more than once this year.
Never mind being tolerant but a bit of common sense and courtesy wouldn't go amiss.
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I know it wasn't just me.
Gavin - I was in quite a tolerant mood actually, if he'd caught me on a bad day, I'd have been having strong words and giving the dog short shrift.
The same guy/dog was at Horseshit a couple of weeks ago, same story.
The owners twattish behavior was exemplified when he bellowed "Fuuuucccckkk Yoouuu" at the top of his voice after failing near the top of clarion call at the end of the evening.
As I understand it, I think its the Derbyshire Wildlife trust that own the woods/dale, which is a SSSI. Climbers are tolerated and I think the likes of Kris and the BMC access reps have had long discussions with regards the placing of bolts/unsightly belay chains etc etc.
Behaviour like this does not do our kind any favours what so ever.
Sounds like the owner is the twat not the dog. Did anyone tell him to sort it out.
I have had dogs all my life so used to them and I like to see dogs running about having fun rather than being tied up and personally dont think its a big deal, mine is rarely on the lead. They are out having there fun whilst we have ours. Its a pain if your food gets nicked but funny if its your mates.
And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks, catching the odd rabbit, or jumping in the river, to the damage humans do. I have never seen them leaving rubbish anywhere for a start.
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I instinctively hate rowdy and annoying dogs at the crag, in the same wasy as I hate it when people play music at the crag, but I'm not entirely sure why, probably 'cos I'm a grumpy bugger.
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Sounds like the owner is the twat not the dog. Did anyone tell him to sort it out.
I have had dogs all my life so used to them and I like to see dogs running about having fun rather than being tied up and personally dont think its a big deal, mine is rarely on the lead. They are out having there fun whilst we have ours. Its a pain if your food gets nicked but funny if its your mates.
And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks, catching the odd rabbit, or jumping in the river, to the damage humans do. I have never seen them leaving rubbish anywhere for a start.
Personally I'm not a dog kinda guy, but I'm happy to see them at the crag. But I'm really shocked that anyone would think that a dog chasing wildlife down Chee Dale could be acceptable. If nothing else, this could threaten access. I would be surprised if DWT saw it as acceptable.
On a less serious note (unless I felt hangry) if a dog nicked my lunch I'd be mightily unimpressed and demanding the owner's lunch for my own!
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It was said that the person was asked to put the dog on a lead and he didn't. Clearly its the owner whos the idiot and not the dog but does it really matter. If actions like this did piss off the wildlife trust or anyone else it's hardly a good defence to say thay we do way more damage climbing is it?
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And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks
At this time of year some ducks are likely to be nesting or have dependent young, so a dog could easily wipe out the next generation. Disturbance by humans, while unwelcome, isn't going have such a direct affect.
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https://www.derbyshirewildlifetrust.org.uk/nature-reserves/chee-dale
Something about dogs on this link and on the sign posts at the station.
They obviously don't mind dogs walking on the path unleashed as the reserve manager has an untethered dog but they and the water bailiff have been very vocal with people that let their dogs enter the river.
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https://www.derbyshirewildlifetrust.org.uk/nature-reserves/chee-dale
Something about dogs on this link and on the sign posts at the station.
They obviously don't mind dogs walking on the path unleashed as the reserve manager has an untethered dog but they and the water bailiff have been very vocal with people that let their dogs enter the river.
Is that not more likely to be linked to spoiling the very expensive, very exclusive fishing?
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And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks
At this time of year some ducks are likely to be nesting or have dependent young, so a dog could easily wipe out the next generation. Disturbance by humans, while unwelcome, isn't going have such a direct affect.
Thats the problem with peoples idea of the environment, its all about the fluffy little critters. If a dog was to catch a duck (that rarely happens) and wipe out a generation the impact is absolutely minimal and balance would be restored in a matter of years. But its very visual.
Humans driving out there. going down the dale, polluting the river via the fields or sewage works (all of Buxtons sewage goes in the river, i wouldn't drink it), the other pollution linked to the production of all the climbing gear we use etc etc. has a million times more effect than anything a dog can do.
And cars are the biggest killer of wildlife in the UK by a long long way.
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And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks
At this time of year some ducks are likely to be nesting or have dependent young, so a dog could easily wipe out the next generation. Disturbance by humans, while unwelcome, isn't going have such a direct affect.
Thats the problem with peoples idea of the environment, its all about the fluffy little critters. If a dog was to catch a duck (that rarely happens) and wipe out a generation the impact is absolutely minimal and balance would be restored in a matter of years. But its very visual.
Humans driving out there. going down the dale, polluting the river via the fields or sewage works (all of Buxtons sewage goes in the river, i wouldn't drink it), the other pollution linked to the production of all the climbing gear we use etc etc. has a million times more effect than anything a dog can do.
And cars are the biggest killer of wildlife in the UK by a long long way.
Of course the world faces bigger issues than ducks being mauled by a dog at a crag: climate change, war in the Middle East, starvation, grotesque inequality, the various types of pollution you mention. But they are all complex problems which will require complex ways of managing them. If there is a dog which is causing disruption to wildlife at a crag this has a very simple solution: put it on a lead. Nothing else is okay.
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Wiping out a generation of mallards would be minimal impact, but something rarer?
I wouldn't underestimate the environmental impact of dogs - where does the food for these carnivores come from?
I'm not particularly a dog person, but even if I was I can't see how you can argue that letting a dog run loose and pissing off the climbers who were there, potentially compromising access by pissing off the wildlife trust and possibly pissing off the fishing interests as well is absolutely fine.
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But theres not a lot that we can do about that is there. There is also a serious environmental impact in having a dog but no one is saying that they should be banned. It is just asking that people take responsibility for their dogs so that they dont pose a threat to wildlife, a nuisance to others and as a follow on a threat to access crags. I'ts a pretty simple and reasonable request that really doesn't need a defence does it?
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I wouldn't underestimate the environmental impact of dogs - where does the food for these carnivores come from?
Not such an easy classificatory matter. Dogs can subsist on a vegetarian or vegan diet; one of the world's oldest recorded dogs was a Border Collie that lived until 25: https://v-dog.com/blogs/v-dog-blog/bramble-the-collies-secrets-to-living-to-age-25 (https://v-dog.com/blogs/v-dog-blog/bramble-the-collies-secrets-to-living-to-age-25)
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I've seen the carbon footprint of a dog described as comparable to car. With a large dog being comparable to a large car (suv) and small dog being comparable to a small car. That was not a vegan dog mind.
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GME you're conflating two arguments there. Of course all humans have a bigger global impact than that of a few dogs chomping a few mallard chicks, but this is the Dogs at Crags thread, not the Friends of the Earth thread!
I work on capercaillie conservation in the Highlands and at this time of year we're really sensitive about how people manage their dogs in areas where caper breed. In a small population every chick counts. It's really hard getting people to understand that at some places at some times of year, Fido should be kept under close control. In Scandinavia they have 'leash laws' to protect ground nesting birds during the breeding season. Its an offence to have your dog running wild and you can be fined, and it's just accepted as the norm.
Also, I'm a dog owner, so know how hard it is to practice what I preach!
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polluting the river via the fields or sewage works (all of Buxtons sewage goes in the river, i wouldn't drink it)
Not my patch so I don't know any specific information about the works, but yes, if there is a sewage treatment works upstream then it will discharge treated sewage effluent to the river. I've no idea what limits on ammonia, BOD etc apply to the works but if you wanted to find out you could ask the Environment Agency - it's a matter of public record.
If you're interested you could even check out what water quality is like in the catchment by looking here:
http://environment.data.gov.uk/catchment-planning/WaterBody/GB104028057820
By my reckoning the Wye appears to enjoy remarkably good water quality, particularly in relation to those determinands that you'd associate with discharges of sewage effluent (Ammonia, BOD, Phosphate), all of which pass the requirements of the WFD. The only thing that fails WFD standards in the waterbody is Zinc, which is probably due to old mine workings in the catchment?
But no, you wouldn't drink the water would you? Because it's untreated river water, and thus not fit for human consumption ::)
Where would you prefer that the treated sewage effluent from Buxton end up? Humans take water from the environment, generally in the uplands; they use it, they clean it; and then they need to put it back, generally in the lowlands where people live. Otherwise there'd be no bloody water left and all the fish would die.
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And i really do think there is no comparison to the environmental impact of them chasing a few ducks
At this time of year some ducks are likely to be nesting or have dependent young, so a dog could easily wipe out the next generation. Disturbance by humans, while unwelcome, isn't going have such a direct affect.
Thats the problem with peoples idea of the environment, its all about the fluffy little critters. If a dog was to catch a duck (that rarely happens) and wipe out a generation the impact is absolutely minimal and balance would be restored in a matter of years. But its very visual.
Humans driving out there. going down the dale, polluting the river via the fields or sewage works (all of Buxtons sewage goes in the river, i wouldn't drink it), the other pollution linked to the production of all the climbing gear we use etc etc. has a million times more effect than anything a dog can do.
And cars are the biggest killer of wildlife in the UK by a long long way.
Of course the world faces bigger issues than ducks being mauled by a dog at a crag: climate change, war in the Middle East, starvation, grotesque inequality, the various types of pollution you mention. But they are all complex problems which will require complex ways of managing them. If there is a dog which is causing disruption to wildlife at a crag this has a very simple solution: put it on a lead. Nothing else is okay.
I was being factious as the environmental slant was used by the original poster when it clearly does not come into this argument. The dog sounds like it was just having fun and no damage other than a bit of mud and water was splashed on some kit that is generally designed to survive a bit of mud and water. To describe it as some kind of environmental issue was a joke, hence my joke of an answer.
One persons annoying dog is anothers friendly pooch having a good time. People just dont seem to have any tolerance these days.
I personally dislike power screaming, babys at crags, large crowds of people, slackliners, permadraws, bongo drums, clip sticks and knee pads and find them all far more annoying than a dog running about chasing ducks. And as for those fucking fingerboards hanging in trees they really do spoil my day. But i tolerate them as i do a dog that shakes itself next to me and gets me and my rope/pad wet.
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The mallards are the least of the wildlife concerns.
its the Grey wagtails that were feeding there prior to arrival of dog, the river dippers, king fishers, cray fish, water voles. The type of wildlife that can get spooked by carnivorous predators charging about and abandon nests etc.
To argue that its doing less damage than humans, as an excuse for its behaviour is just laughable.
Anyway, gavs just trolling.
I posted this in the hope someones out there reading it and the message might just filter through that having out of control dogs careering about at the crag, particularly in sensitive areas such as the cornice is not really cricket and they might think twice next time they're out.
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I personally dislike power screaming, babys at crags, large crowds of people, slackliners, permadraws, bongo drums, clip sticks and knee pads and find them all far more annoying than a dog running about chasing ducks. And as for those fucking fingerboards hanging in trees they really do spoil my day. But i tolerate them as i do a dog that shakes itself next to me and gets me and my rope/pad wet.
That is some top grumping sir ;D >:(
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Anyway, gavs just trolling.
Fair cop. Long boring train journey so needed some entertainment. Nothing we or dogs do should impact on others enjoyment but i do think climbers seem a very intolerant entitled bunch.
If anyone is ever annoyed by my dog please tell me and i will sort it out, she does however like chasing rabbits and i dont have an issue with it so wont stop her.
And if you want a story about a badly behaved dog just last week mine ran into the middle of family group, who were in the process of having a very emotional memorial to their recently departed grandma, and stole the cake they had made for the occasion. I berated the dog and apologised, and luckily they saw the funny side of it.
To be fair to the dog they were on the main path she walks along every day, the cake was open on a plate on a rug and did look very tasty.
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To be honest, I'm with Gav on this. I find out of control bongo hippies at crags far more annoying and detrimental to the environment than a few over excitable hounds.
I do of course appreciate the need to curtail a dog's chase or prey drive...
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Yes but no one is making the case for bongos at the crag, Gav is trying to make a case for an owner allowing it's dig to behave in a. Anti social manner that pisses off other users and potentially the land owners/managers.
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I'll get the 'bongo hippies at crags' thread started then. ;)
In my opinion, climbers are a thousand times more irritating and detrimental to crags than dogs. How is a power scream any different to a bark? How many dogs park inconsiderately? How many dogs leave tick marks everywhere? How many dogs have the ability to pick up their own shits? etc. etc.
It goes without saying for me that if a dog doesn't have solid recall and/or has a high prey drive or chase instinct, it should be managed by use of a static lead. I have a Border Collie that is insanely intelligent, loves every person under the sun but is highly reactive on lead and will chase squirrels and birds etc. Thus she is managed on lead.
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This is it though, isn't it? Dogs are more important than people. If a dog's just having fun tear-arsing round eating people's lunch and killing a few ducks then that's fine, but when I go round the crag shitting in people's rope bags and barking every two seconds then somehow that's not OK? It's political correctness gone mad.
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:lol: If a dog eats your lunch then you're a dork for leaving your lunch out in the open!
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:lol: If a dog eats your lunch then you're a dork for leaving your lunch out in the open!
Now I remember why dogs at crags piss me off. I shouldn't have to lock my lunch away so that someone's badly behaved dog doesn't steal it. Lunch being stolen by a seagull is funny, lunch being stolen by someone's dog make me want to throw all that person's kit in the river or key their car (neither of which are a big deal, really, but both of which would piss the affected person off)
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I hadn't realised that lunch theft was such a prominent issue but quite why people can't keep their possessions in their bags is beyond me. Strewn gear across crags is another one on the slate against climbers.
Yours,
Voice for dogs :-*
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This reminds me of the time last year walking along a sunny beach with my ex’s massive old english sheepdog bounding joyfully along ahead of me. It bounded joyfully over to a small child who was proudly in the final stages of his impressive sandcastle. Old English ‘butley’ squatted his big woolly arse over the middle of the sandcastle and curled out the biggest, runniest shit ever.. right in front of the boy sitting next to the castle.. effectively destroying it in a flood of brown slurry. The boy was traumatised and starting wailing and crying and ran off to his parents. Parents weren’t impressed with me and my out of control monster destroying their kid’s proud creation and basically ruining his whole day at the seaside. The poor kid!
I felt awful and embarrassed, but it was also a little bit funny as fuck to watch it all happen in front of my eyes but totally beyond my control.
Bet that kid hates dogs forever more!
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UKC-esque, this thread!
I'll happily contribute to an anti bongo-hippy one though!
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:lol: If a dog eats your lunch then you're a dork for leaving your lunch out in the open!
Now I remember why dogs at crags piss me off. I shouldn't have to lock my lunch away so that someone's badly behaved dog doesn't steal it. Lunch being stolen by a seagull is funny, lunch being stolen by someone's dog make me want to throw all that person's kit in the river or key their car (neither of which are a big deal, really, but both of which would piss the affected person off)
Luckily for you dogs don’t like dried seeds and rice cakes.
Although the adoption of the keto diet among sports climbers makes for much more dog friendly snacks to steal.
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I've seen dogs go into bags to get to lunches before. When you're halfway up a route there's not a lot you can do about it.
Honestly, I quite like a nice happy dog that's just chilling out or being friendly. It's when they shit and it's not picked up, or they run round uncontrollably or bark like crazy etc that they become a pain.
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It's when they shit and it's not picked up,
Again humans are worse offenders for this at crags.
My dog loves rolling in it which makes for a pleasent drive home.
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Mentally thinking of the times I've stood in human shit .. anywhere...... erm struggling
Now,
Number of times stood in dog shit....... 1,2,3,4...10...50...I've lost count.
Every single week my lads come home from orienteering with dog shit on their shoes...and more often than not, me too from just hanging around while they go off on a run.
Makes for an unpleasant drive home.
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(I know - shit happens).
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Mentally thinking of the times I've stood in human shit .. anywhere...... erm struggling
Now,
Number of times stood in dog shit....... 1,2,3,4...10...50...I've lost count.
Every single week my lads come home from orienteering with dog shit on their shoes...and more often than not, me too from just hanging around while they go off on a run.
Makes for an unpleasant drive home.
Was thinking of crags not general places.
It’s the fucking cows up here that don’t clean up after themselves and don’t get me started on the sheep.
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And if you want a story about a badly behaved dog just last week mine ran into the middle of family group, who were in the process of having a very emotional memorial to their recently departed grandma, and stole the cake they had made for the occasion. I berated the dog and apologised, and luckily they saw the funny side of it.
To be fair to the dog they were on the main path she walks along every day, the cake was open on a plate on a rug and did look very tasty.
Great story.
I’ve been lax at times as an owner including leaving my dog at the crag, twice.
One embarrassing situation was when I was out for a run coming back along Fulwood road. I had Pip with me on a leash tied to my waist. Ahead on the pavement were two students- one female and one male. Therefore I went down onto the road to pass them. Pip , instead of following me, decided to dart between the two students upending the girl with the lead. I managed to catch her by the shoulders and just keep her off the pavement although I was struggling to avert my head from her stubbing a cigarette out on my cheek.
Her legs were akimbo in the air on the dogs back. It was all a bit of a tangle and a struggle to extricate from. The boy was laughing his head off, I was going “I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry” and the girl was shouting at the boy “Don’t look up my skirt, don’t look up my skirt!”
.
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We cant usually have Nina off as being a Greyhound, she couldn't give a flying f*ck what I ask her to do if there's anything vaguely more interesting / to her liking / she just doesn't agree.
However, at Shipwreck Cove, there are plenty of gates on the access path to prevent her default "return to home" behaviour so we could have her off. She was fairly well behaved and just went to sleep in the middle of the cove. When it came time to leave I thought we'd just pack up and walk off and then at some distance the dog would sprint to catch up (this is now a very rare sight), but she didn't. She just laid there looking sorry for herself until I walked back, attached the lead and persuaded her (shoving!) to move.
Last year at Kilnsey I had a project at the opposite end of the crag to Nat and when we were each getting towards RP no. 3 of the day the dog wouldn't budge and we had to ask another forum member to keep an eye on her at the South buttress. At ~28kg and with a fair bit of mass at the back end, when she doesn't want to be moved it's bloody hard work.
She's fantastically low maintenance but sometimes I do wish she'd actually do something from time to time (she's scared of the moon / hot air-balloons etc.).
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She's fantastically low maintenance but sometimes I do wish she'd actually do something from time to time (she's scared of the moon / hot air-balloons etc.).
Like my Grandads old dog, a Whippet / Bedlington Terrier cross, he got to go rabbiting. He tried to give her away as a puppy when she refused to go outside in the rain; a snowy winter would see her refusing to go outside for weeks at time (and showing admirable bowel control). Luckily my Grandad saw sense and grew to accept her lack of rabbiting expertise as a good trade for being incredibly affectionate and low-maintenance (and he had ferrets for rabbiting anyway!).
... I still get annoyed by dogs pestering me, and dog owners for not cleaning up their shit, mind.
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Dogs at crags, US-states-with-decriminalised-cannabis version:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123722784/high-dogs-from-thc-laced-human-poop
:'(
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Ruff