UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: jfdm on October 15, 2014, 10:51:49 pm
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Thinking about taking the plunge and booking a coaching session.
Just wondering what ukb's think? Did you find it beneficial? Worth it?
Thinking about using Neil Gresham's/Steve Golley - master class coaching.
Any ideas great fully received. I am London based.
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Having somebody experirenced and coachy provide perspective on your climbing can only be useful. It might not make you a better climber immediately but it is very unlikely to make you a worse climber.
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Thinking about taking the plunge and booking a coaching session.
Just wondering what ukb's think? Did you find it beneficial? Worth it?
Thinking about using Neil Gresham's/Steve Golley - master class coaching.
Any ideas great fully received. I am London based.
Yes. I was one of Neil's early guinea pigs and he is probably now the most experienced coach in the country - highly enthusiastic with a good depth of knowledge about physical training. Not been formally coached by Steve but he has given me advice on problems at Rubicon and struck me as very observant regarding technique/movement so they are likely to complement each other well.
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Dunno enough background to say, but if you've got the spare change and are short on free time, then I'd say go for it.
Good Luck!
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It's a good idea. Think about what you want to address or change in your climbing, it will make everything easier for you and for the coach.
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Yes. You'll get better faster.
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Thanks everybody for your replies.
I will try and sort out a coached climbing session soon.
Proving tricky as Neil G has moved up to the Lakes.
Which is a shame for me but probably not for him!
Hopefully I can get in touch with Steve Golley.
And get a session at The Arch
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Hopefully I can get in touch with Steve Golley.
And get a session at The Arch
He's a regular here - you can PM him (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3068)
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Thanks Shark - will try and mail Steve and see if he can help me. :2thumbsup:
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A good coach is well worth the investment a shit one quite the reverse.
What you primarily need, in my opinion is someone who can watch you climb and then analyse what you're not doing well and how you can change it, some one just showing you how to do moves isn't the same thing.
I've seen some excellent coaches, Neil G being among them, some shocking examples (just crimp like fuck and reach through / get stronger etc) and then there was Dawes.
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I had some coaching with Adrian Berry at the Castle: excellent and worth every penny.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Had he previously been following Gresh round with a notebook?
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"Wear more black powerstretch"
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Had he previously been following Gresh round with a notebook?
Are rockfax producing a coaching book?
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Had he previously been following Gresh round with a notebook?
Are rockfax producing a coaching book?
Yes - after every problem you open a random page - and if it contains a fist you need to learn to crimp. If it's a forearm you need to work on stamina - and if it's a bum, work on your sit starts :)
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What's the symbol for upgrading the problem if you can't do it?
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Had he previously been following Gresh round with a notebook?
Are rockfax producing a coaching book?
Yes - after every problem you open a random page - and if it contains a fist you need to learn to crimp. If it's a forearm you need to work on stamina - and if it's a bum, work on your sit starts :)
An uncomfortable combination of icons
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What's the symbol for upgrading the problem if you can't do it?
An erect middle finger :)
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Had he previously been following Gresh round with a notebook?
Are rockfax producing a coaching book?
Yes - after every problem you open a random page - and if it contains a fist you need to learn to crimp. If it's a forearm you need to work on stamina - and if it's a bum, work on your sit starts :)
An uncomfortable combination of icons
That's how they roll!
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What's the symbol for upgrading the problem if you can't do it?
7B+
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What's the symbol for upgrading the problem if you can't do it?
I would of thought this :shit:
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I emailed Steve - he specialises in movement and technique.
He was really honest and helpful.
I really just want to get stuck into training at this point in time.
He suggested that I email Szymon Dziukiewicz.
Don't know if anybody has had any coaching with him?
He is a fellow coach on Neil Greshams team.
The question now is how long to go for?
1.5 or 2hours. (The rate is a pound a minute)
I will book with Steve on my next pay day - I am not a lottery winner - can't do both at the same time.
Once I have done the session with Szymon I will repost here again and outline what went on - maybe it might be useful to somebody? Hopefully later on in the week?
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(The rate is a pound a minute)
Are you kidding? If that's true I'm quitting the law firm and moving to UK to work as a climbing right now.
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I'm guessing that's a London rate Nibs, rather than a UK one. It's more like £30 an hour round here...
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A pound a minute. Brilliant.
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Just like Razzle. A penny a page :D
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I emailed Steve - he specialises in movement and technique.
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I find movement/technique hard to self-assess and self-coach and I guess most are similar in this. It's a facet of climbing I'd like external input on but I'd prefer this was done on rock rather than plastic. My perception is I climb somewhat differently on each and wonder how much carry-over there is in movement/technique from one to the other.
Once I have done the session with Szymon I will repost here again and outline what went on - maybe it might be useful to somebody? Hopefully later on in the week?
I'd be interested to learn about your experiences.
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From a coaching perspective I'd say it was much easier to coach on plastic (controlled environment and so on) and fewer alternative moves.
In respect of being self aware, I agree, it is very difficult to know what you do differently when you fail/succeed. A coach watching you should be able to do this, for example if you turn your heel out to 90 degrees or not, video evidence on an Ipad can really help.
A coach should also be able to explain center of gravity, how this interacts with other aspects of technique, movement and so on, think of heel / toe hooking on an arete, where you go it and the shape of your leg makes a massive difference and when you're on a problem you're not focusing on that in isolation whereas a coach can.
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I'm guessing that's a London rate Nibs, rather than a UK one. It's more like £30 an hour round here...
Ahah, 30 Pounds is still more than double of what I get here for climbing courses!
But still, who would pay 30 quids to be put on a Beastmaker for ages?
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Thanks for everybody's replies.
Had coaching session today - didn't know what to expect - left me feeling somewhat indifferent.
Pre session - sent email outlining strengths and weaknesses, level climbing up to v3 flash, max v4/5. Pointed out that I wanted a training session - so that could do things at wall plus stuff with beastmaster, kettle bells and gymnastic rings at home. Technique was not mentioned in the email.
Coach insisted that session was at a wall I had to pay an additional entry charge, didn't want to use my regular wall.
The coach was advertised as "good at training."
For added info - I was going to use a different coach at my wall but he wanted to concentrate on technique - a session was an hour. Decided that I wanted to do the training.
Outline of coaching session -
Warm-up: usual routine circles with arms, shoulders etc. then went up easy problem about V0. Then started to do small traverse - trying to use the biggest hand holds. Gone a few metres when the coach stopped me and said that what I was doing wasn't "bouldering specific" I should do easy problems - up and down.
Did a few of the easier ones. Up and down. 10-15 minutes max.
A bit of chat
Quite quickly this progressed to increasingly difficult problems.
Within 2-3 problems he picked up that I had "poor dynamic movement."
Think because I hadn't got warmed up properly?
We then spent the next 1 hour doing a number of dynamic problems initiating movement from feet, legs, core. He was quite thorough when coaching this.
About 10 minutes before 1 and a half hours was up - was asked about paying for an additional half-hour.
I said what was the point an extra half-hour wouldn't make a great deal difference.
Coach sn**gered a bit - suggested that I would need a lot more than half-hour to correct things.
Give him his due he then spent about 20 minutes showing me some things to do on the beastmaster/campus board. He said that I could handle footless campusing once a week for four weeks with one week off.
Ended me paying him the money, him saying s"end me an email outlining what we had done in the session." He would email back anything that I had missed out.
Overall was it worth the money - not really.
Will it be of use to me - yes it will.
Before anyone gets on their high horses - I have taught art for about 14 years in London. So know how to teach. If I was to run art lessons privately I'd probably be lucky to get £30-40 per hour.
I think that I was a bit underwhelmed - the first session should be advertised as a short initial assessment - introduction -1 hour max and you should be given a training programme to follow.
Future sessions should be either about technique or conditioning. Again max of hour.
Some video analysis should be done - none done today.
Training programme should be given at end of each session - not relying on client to do the donkey work.
What to do next - not to sure.
What have other peoples experiences been like?
At the end I felt deflated rather than inspired.
Sorry for the long post - but thought the detail might help.
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An interesting summary there, thanks for posting it, and I'm sorry you've had a disappointing coaching session. :(
A a coach myself it's always interesting to hear honest feedback from underwhelmed folk - there's a few things I'd flag up about what you've written (and I've got no idea who the coach was and don't wish to know):
Clearly the session content was not what you expected or asked for, so no matter how high quality it was you were understandably left wanting. This is the fundamental issue maybe?
The idea behind the coach asking you to write up your training plan and email it to them may be to help your retention of the learning, or it may be because they'd run out of time to sit down and do it with you!
At the end of your comment, some of your list of 4 'shoulds' I would tend to suggest are actually 'coulds' instead. For example many folk have no interest in video analysis and to shoehorn it into a 1 hour session could be wasting their time - while others love it! Likewise follow-up sessions can take any number of paths (not necessarily technique or conditioning), depending on the goals of the climber and their current weaknesses.
Finally I'd encourage you to offer the coach some constructive feedback when/if you send your proposed training plan to them, so they have the chance to act on it and improve as a coach.
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Why would a client send a coach a proposed training plan?
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Thanks the kettle for your reply.
I know from teaching myself, that plans can change if problems are encountered.
Maybe the coach needed to be a bit more diplomatic and say look you need to work on technique rather than training - would you like to carry on? As a client then I have the option to consider this?
Writing a summary I didn't mind and you are right it is to do with retaining what went on in the session. But when teaching i am expected to plan a lesson before hand, explain things to a class, make sure everybody understands, practically demo, intervene when necessary, result should be positive outcomes for students, so that they feel enthused to do more. If target not met then things will be revisited.
I would expect something similar from a coach, some preparation or else what is the point in sending out an email identifying strengths and weaknesses? Before climbing I was a member of a gym and on good speaking terms with some of the personal trainers. Everything was measured and written down as the session was on going with their clients. Their clients had a programme to take away at the end of each session - normally an hour long.
With regard to video analysis - the key aim today was to develop dynamic movement, this is very difficult to describe using words far easier to see mistakes with a quick video on a mobile phone? This wouldn't have taken more than a couple of minutes? I wouldn't expect this from every session. But when undertaking movement coaching would have been invaluable today? Even when the coach demoed the movement it was difficult for me to feel where I was going wrong, if I was improving?
I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!
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Why would a client send a coach a proposed training plan?
Exactly dense
I am not the expert here?
Thats what you pay a coach to do?
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Interesting thread. As ever in climbing there's this dichotomy between physical conditioning and technique training.
I must admit I would be more interested in a *longterm* relationship with a coach who gave me a 6 week plan based on working my weaknesses as personal trainers usually do.
I suppose the point is that learning how to train properly would be more useful, potentially, than learning that I don't inside flag enough (or some other technical trickery).
Being told I'm a bit fat and a bit unfit and i need to pull my finger out to get better is some thing I wish I'd learned years ago ....
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The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?
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There's no point closing the stable door now the horse has bolted ;) maybe you should have asked these questions first?
Some coaches are affiliated, I suppose some aren't. That doesn't mean the one that is is going to be good or the one that isn't is going to be bad. Tho I must say having a coach for one session is just bizarre, you're wanting to be coached you're not going to come out of the session with an elixir. That's not a go at you either jfdm
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It sounds like you had a shit coach.
Most people will have some basic flaws in technique (mine is I'm fat and weak) standing behind them watching should, for an experienced and able coach allow them to identify the weakness and explain them to the client, and show via a series of short video clips what they're doing poorly and then when they get it right.
Once the client understands one flaw they can go away and practice this on their own for review at the next session.
By and large technique should get you through problems up to 6a at least.
'Dynamic movement' is in many ways an excuse for poor technique on almost any problem other than dynos. It sounds like your 'coach' has shit technique himself.
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There's no point closing the stable door now the horse has bolted ;) maybe you should have asked these questions first?
Tho I must say having a coach for one session is just bizarre, you're wanting to be coached you're not going to come out of the session with an elixir. That's not a go at you either jfdm
Thanks dense,
As newbie on the forum I was hoping that I would be advised to look for an affiliated coach.
It only occurred to me tonight. Like you say it won't make a good one though even if they are affiliated.
I wasn't thinking one session and I'd move v4/5 to v14 overnight. Know that things would be incremental and it might take a year or more before I move up to flashing v4 and regularly doing v5's. That I would go back periodically to a coach to help improve my bouldering.
London prices - couldn't afford every week without a euro lottery win?
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It sounds like you had a shit coach.
Most people will have some basic flaws in technique (mine is I'm fat and weak) standing behind them watching should, for an experienced and able coach allow them to identify the weakness and explain them to the client, and show via a series of short video clips what they're doing poorly and then when they get it right.
Once the client understands one flaw they can go away and practice this on their own for review at the next session.
It sounds like your 'coach' has shit technique himself.
Agree with most of what you said sloper.
Rather than spend an hour going over the same thing, better to move on.
Review things at the next session?
As for the coach - his climbing technique was good - very smooth,efficient, powerful.
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The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?
This is the point isn't it. I've had running coaching by a qualified coach. I didn't pay for it as it happens and was part of a group. The coach was enthusiastic, gave an appropriate warm up and stretching period that was varied, knew what to look for in poor running technique, was able to offer reasons and solutions, gave targeted stretches in areas he observed as being 'tight'. All in all I felt confident in what he said and was enthused to improve. Sadly it seems that some people think that climbing at a reasonable grade qualifies them as a coach.
£60 is also a piss take. That's University lecturer salary and you need more then a couple of days coaching training to be able to do that.
In balance there are some very good climbing coaches out there but as climbing is such a complex and varied sport you need to be really clear on what you want. If you want someone to give you pointers on how to climb a problem then you're better off making friends with someone who climbs harder than you. If you have noticed a specific weakness (confidence, endurance, stamina, strength) then a coach can help you with these.
I've only ever paid for one climbing coaching sesh (although I would not be adverse to paying for another) and that was with The Dawes many years ago. We did not end up with a training plan or discuss finger board routines but did get totally inspired and had good time along the way, money well spent.
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If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:
Team of 2 training - http://teamof2climbing.com/ (http://teamof2climbing.com/)
They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.
Otehrwise, pick up Gimme Craft, Self Coached Climber, 9 out 10, and Rock Climbers Training Manual and read them all. Then look through all of the different traingn threads and the benchmarking survey and see how you fit, and you'll start to see your strenths/weaknesses from the physical side. Then you can decide where to spend your time/money...
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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
;)
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Sounds like the two of you have got your wires very crossed up.
You went to Steve Golley knowing he was a movement specialist asking about conditioning and was recommended this guy as an alternative. Only you end up having a movement session with him instead. Did your initial approach state your requirements, where you had sourced him from and what you were hoping to achieve from the session?
I think the initial question I'd have asked re this guy is what does "good at training" mean? Seems totally vague. And I'd definitely have got their ahead of him to warm up and be ready to go, wouldn't want to be paying for that and feeling rushed to get on with things then climbing badly because you haven't had long enough.
I think I'd be very disappointed too if I was you but maybe it's a coaching thing, that they concentrate on technique ahead of physical conditioning so that clients don't get into bad habits early on which are harder to iron out at a later date? If you teach someone to climb harder problems well then make them stronger it'll probably* make you a better climber long-term rather then doing it the other way around when they're more resistant to learning technique because they can just use strength to pull through stuff less efficiently.
While you save up for your next session I'd do what Sasquatch suggests and get hold of some of those books, SCC probably a good starting point.
*probably
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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!
I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism. Accepting it is relevant that you might not have 'clicked' and putting that aside:
Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.
I have had training plans/ coaching myself and have also seen some really shocking so called coaching in the wall from more than one 'coach'. Obviously you can vote with your feet but that doesn't move anything forward.
The idea of someone sn**gering at you declining their offer to pay more sounds very unprofessional. Perhaps in his case it wasn't clearly set out what you were expecting from each other though from your posts I don't think that is true of yourself.
So who was it?
Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?
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Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.
Hopefully since Mountain Training have now become involved with the new Coaching Award it should become more 'professional'?
http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme (http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme)
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This is in response to Clarts
I had a group coached running session with about 50 other people for about an hour a while ago. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty. And was enthused to do more.
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If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:
Team of 2 training
They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.
Otehrwise, pick up Gimme Craft, Self Coached Climber, 9 out 10, and Rock Climbers Training Manual and read them all.
Some great advice here - team of 2 look brilliant but I would have to go Colorado for training session! Which would work out more than a £ a minute. But had a look at website and they do online coaching.
The books - have quite a few of those you recommend. Just thought that paying a coach might give me some new insights? Or at least say that I am on the right track.
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I had a group coaching session with about 50 other people for about an hour. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty.
What specifically was more beneficial?
What specifically were you looking for out of the 1 on 1 coaching? Were you hoping to get a 6 week training plan? Some exercises to do to address weaknesses? An assessment?
Knowing exactly what you want can be helpful. Also being open to whatever was being communicated is critical, but hard for most people. A really good coach can communicate this, but for most people this is hard.
I've got a friend who did the team of 2 online training, but didn't get quite what he wanted out of it. He thought they were good coaches, and definitely helped him. He thought the video analysis they did was VERY good, and was really impressed with Justin. Not as much with Kris. The "training" plan was not really suited for him.
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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
;)
Nibile - Am I right in thinking that you live in Italy? I am getting married next week. For £60 a day might take you up on the offer. Sounds like the ideal honey moon destination!
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This in response to Nai,
I tried to get there early - but station closed so had to double back on myself so to about 10-15 minutes longer than normal - which would have given me about 20 minutes to warm up. London transport can be difficult if there is a problem!
The frustrating things was the technique coach would have been cheaper for me to do what I did yesterday. Rather than pay a supposed training coach to train my technique. If that makes sense?
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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
;)
Nibile - Am I right in thinking that you live in Italy? I am getting married next week. For £60 a day might take you up on the offer. Sounds like the ideal honey moon destination!
letting your wife/partner watch an intense Italian doing one armers on small beastmaker holds.... Different definition of ideal honeymoon to most. ;)
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;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here! ;)
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I had a group coaching session with about 50 other people for about an hour. It was free, it was more beneficial than the session I had yesterday, even though I was one of fifty.
What specifically was more beneficial?
What specifically were you looking for out of the 1 on 1 coaching?
Hi Sasquatch thanks for your message
What was beneficial - running should be a simple activity to do - put the average runner like a climber can get injured in lots of ways.
The session was about improving the running gait to prevent injury. Simple drills were demoed and then undertaken by the group, most were effective and were all ones to take home. The added positive was that it was free. the event was sponsored by Newton training shoes. The coach was an over 50's national record holder for 1500m think that he talked about breaking the over 50's world record? Something along those lines. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
With regards coaching - as I said I didn't know what to expect, was interested in the training side of climbing rather than technique - I made this clear in the original email exchanges. I know that dynamic movement was a weakness before the coaching session so it wasn't something I didn't already know.
I wanted somebody to point me in the right direction about training, not be rude, wanted them to encourage and be supportive if things needed to be changed some simple drills to correct things. Rather than abstract talk?
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Perhaps the best way to get better at physical training for climbing /increase your understanding of training (the aspect you say you want to improve) is not a coach but a training partner. Training requires relatively long periods spent experimenting with how your body responds to different training stimuli. Failing that (motivated training partners with similar goals can be hard to find), self-coaching with the help of the current literature - RCTM, SCC, 9 out of 10 etc. etc. is how a lot of climbers train.
Really the training exercises are all pretty basic and can easily be learned by reading the various literature and blogs written by various coaches. It's all just a matter of committing to a plan (any structured plan will lead to improvement as long as you stick with it) and seeing how you improve over say 6 -12 weeks depending on what aspect you hope to improve. As long as you work in the zone between doing too little - unlikely at the V4 level - and overdoing it/injuring yourself it's hard to fail to improve physically.
I think it's quite a big ask for a coach to cover much more than the absolute basics of physical training in a couple of hours and really you could learn most of the exercises without needing to pay someone. Identifying physical, technical and mental weaknesses and then looking at how these weaknesses and strengths help or hinder the achievement of your stated climbing goals (if you have any), then suggesting one or two methods of strengthening your main weaknesses is, I think, where coaching is most beneficial.
Me and a mate had a full day with Steve Mac in 2008. Split between two the cost was £100 each. The day lasted from 10 to around 5 or 6pm - a proper full day. Steve was really sharp at spotting our respective weaknesses - physical, technical and also some fear of falling going on, even though only slight. The next day he sent us both a fairly comprehensive email detailing our respective physical weaknesses and suggested a few basic exercises to target them; technique weaknesses or strengths, with tips on technical improvements and also suggested some stretches for tight hips to improve high front-on toe placement. One very simple concept which lots of people overlook - placing your foot where you feel you want to place it for a move, not where the obvious footholds are - very useful! Highly recommended.
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;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here! ;)
Fantastic - be sure to drop you a line if I am in the area!
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;D
Sorry jfdm, your reply had slipped under the radar! First of all, congratulations and best wishes!
I live in Tuscany, Siena. If you happen to be around for your honeymoon, give me a shout on here!
I promise I won't tell your wife what you wrote here! ;)
Fantastic - be sure to drop you a line if I am in the area!
Brilliant!
Board climbing, tripes and liver and red wine.
What else could your wife want!
:dance1:
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Perhaps the best way to get better at physical training for climbing /increase your understanding of training (the aspect you say you want to improve) is not a coach but a training partner.
Really the training exercises are all pretty basic and can easily be learned by reading the various literature and blogs written by various coaches.
I think it's quite a big ask for a coach to cover much more than the absolute basics of physical training in a couple of hours and really you could learn most of the exercises without needing to pay someone.
Me and a mate had a full day with Steve Mac in 2008
Hi Pete thanks for your message,
Training partner would be brilliant - but climb on my own, not a member of a club.
I have reads lots of stuff on here, on the net, books etc. wanted somebody to say I was on the right track, or to change things, some simple drills to correct things. I know that gains are going to be slow, but wanted some support and encouragement.
Lucky you getting a days coaching with Steve m - must have been a great experience.
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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!
I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism.
So who was it?
Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?
I don't know if naming and shaming would be a good idea.
If it was your lively hood would you want to be named and shamed?
Sometimes you just have a bad day at the office?
Coaching/climbing/teaching is/can be subjective?
I might not have felt like I had a good session yesterday.
But maybe you might click with the same coach?
It is difficult?
But definitely a list of coaching recommendations would be a great idea.
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Coaching in climbing is relatively new. There has been a proliferation of late, clearly they aren't all equal.
Hopefully since Mountain Training have now become involved with the new Coaching Award it should become more 'professional'?
http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme (http://www.mountain-training.org/climbing/awards/coaching-scheme)
Had a look at this last night - it would be good for climbers if something like this was set-up? At least then you would be sure of the competence of the coach.
As said in other threads - this doesn't mean that the coach would be one that you clicked with?
The other thing is that I wouldn't want it to be a money spinner scheme for whoever ran it?
A while ago in a scheme was set up for all qualified school teachers called the Generally Teaching Council. As a teacher you had to enrolled on it to teach, it was initially free, but then became a paid scheme -£100 per year - along those lines? It was literally money for old rope. A couple of years ago the scheme was scrapped and to my knowledge not replaced.
If people want train to be a coach brilliant, but should be done professionally rather than in adhoc fashion.
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Jfdm, in answer to the following questions you had:
The other thing is what kind of training do coaches have?
Potentially no formal training, ask if you're unsure
Is there a nationally recognised programme for coach development?
There is (someone linked to it earlier), but it is only a year old, and the highest level of it (the 3rd tier 'Performance Coach') has not yet been launched
The BMC or some other organisation, that coaches could be affiliated to?
The BMC offer a series of coaching modules, no qualifications or affiliations, but they do employ national comp coaches who are often also available to recreational climbers, such as Tom Greenall in Sheffield.
If not anybody could set themselves up as a climbing coach?
Yes
Maybe I could set myself up as a coach?
you could - good luck!
You can probably see why the Coaching scheme has been set up but it'll be a couple more years before it becomes well established and works for the kind of coaching you're after. In the meantime I'd go by word of mouth, popularity, testimonials etc. There is also the Masterclass Academy coaching scheme (Gresh's baby) but again few folk have qualified as it's new and has London prices!
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As said in other threads - this doesn't mean that the coach would be one that you clicked with?
The other thing is that I wouldn't want it to be a money spinner scheme for whoever ran it?
'clicking' with a coach is simply a sign that their soft skills are up to the job, good coaches don't leave it to chance whether they get on with their clients or not (with a few extreme exceptions!)
The coaching scheme isn't a money spinner (I'm a provider of the awards :'(). For an aspirant coach there's a one-off £39 registration fee (for database, online logbook and all resources) then the qualification courses themselves cost an average of £60 per day to attend. No annual fees.
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Surely, the fundamental flaw in this whole approach is the underlying assumption, that an hour ( or even 3) spent with a coach is going to have tangible effects upon your climbing?
This is not turning up at the gym and being shown how to operate the treadmill.
Coaching is something that takes time.
Something which requires the coach to build-up an understanding of the climber, the climbers personality, attitude, strengths and weaknesses (physical and otherwise), History and ambitions.
Anything else is just an induction course or brief critique.
It is Instruction, not Coaching.
What the OP really seemed to want was a "Master class" or a deconstruction of their training and ability.
Or at least, that would seem to me to be all that would be possible I the hour/hour and half allotted.
And that would require the climber to already have a plan in place.
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jfdm, sorry to read you had a disappointing session. For the future, bear in mind that for 60 Pounds a day you can come to my house, stay in my spare room, get training sessions at my board and if you do well also some free pizza for dinner...
;)
Throw in some ice cream and I'll book the plane.
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Thanks everybody, I will go away and reflect on everything that has been posted and try to act on it if I can, you have been very supportive.
I was trying to reply to all the posts but I was out today - and so my final posts might be a bit out of wack with the original posts - sorry about that.
I am open to more coaching but I think that I will be more careful about what the focus is for the session. If things go off track then maybe be more assertive with the coach.
My advice for anybody thinking about coaching and new to climbing - would be for the first session to be an initial assessment and take things from there? Rather than have some preconceived ideas?
The coach emailed me back today saying - that there wasn't really that much that he could add to the email I sent him summarising the session with him. Along the lines of my post yesterday but a bit more detailed. As I said he was thorough on technique.
He said if I stuck to dynamic movement my climbing would improve.
He stated my strength was good enough for the level I was climbing at.
He apologised for being "blunt" and said that he would video some of the next session!
He wished me good luck with my climbing!
If only he had been a bit more like this during the session!
He said to report back in a couple of months!
I was not expecting to overnight become a climbing superstar with a single coaching session. I completely understand that any technical changes can take months if not years to make the correct adaptions. Alongside periodic sessions with a coach. At least the session has given me a focus to work on which is a positive.
As we all know it is difficult to accept criticism at the best of times - particularly if it is delivered unprofessionally. That was part of the problem yesterday.
If I do work with a different coach I will search for the thread and repost and outline what went on and how I found it. Hoping it will be more positive.
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You said you have no training partner and aren't part of a club - you could try posting in Power Club every week on here or even Fit Club on the other channel. It certainly helps to keep me focused and quite often have had some really good pointers as to where I'm going wrong... and bucketloads of encouragement too.
Just a thought.
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Thanks Kelvin think I will try to in the future - I do read the power club posts.
Thanks for your advice!
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Are there group training sessions available at any of the local places. That may be better, more cost effective option, or see if you can put one together with a coach and get a few mates to join you.
Good luck whatever you choose! And ask away on the training section. most of us are more than happy to pontificate on the latest and greatest (or old and classic) methods for training. :)
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The works in sheffield has nights were beginners etc will have an hour one night with an instructor trying crimpy problems, a night doing slopey problems etc. it's free, once or twice a wk, this always has a fair few people in the group. Some walls in London must do this, if they do maybe make the effort to go to one of them walls rather than another. Definitely worth some research I'd say
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some interesting comments, good thread.
Like yourself I wanted to improve, don't we all. I paid for an expensive session of two hours with a 'superstar' coach, I thought I had explained well what I wanted in emails beforehand, like you I wanted an assessment that said what my biggest weaknesses were and a plan on how to work on these. My expectations were wrong. What I got was a coach for a single session. Sure he pointed out a few things, saw me climb a little, gave me some feedback, but in a similar way I was, in hindsight, very disappointed. But in truth I recognised later that I'd asked for the wrong thing. My bad.
What I had really wanted was a coach / mentor to work with me over a number of weeks to see my weaknesses and give me a written plan to follow to improve these.
About a year later I hooked up with one of the staff at my local wall and together drew up a plan, it was a 12 week plan with daily training, a hard regime. It was focused on one aim, to get one climb at three grades up. The idea was the general level of my climbing would move up and I would peak at my goal. 12 weeks Versus 3 grades. Tough goal but I ticked the box, sure it was a route that suited me, but ticked.
So another year later and I decided I wanted to again move up a grade. Sadly the guy had left to work elsewhere, shame, really good mentor. But I talked to the junior team coach at my wall and we agreed a similar deal. 12 week plan. It aint cheap but I get a beasting from her every second week which is ace, it gives me feedback each time on my weaknesses. Shes also given me a day by day plan to work these and within 4 weeks I actually hit my goal. I'm now aiming for more more more so again I've pushed over the plateau.
For me the key thing is to stop faffing and actually train, stop social climbing and get down to business. I clearly need a day by day plan. Real structure to the 12 weeks. I also need feedback. She helps by text, by email and by phone if needed between seeing her. She wrote my plan and one of the best things is she considered the limitations of time I have in my life.
Looking back at your posts you need something similar, a longer term coaching / a plan / a mentor to support. If youre around London/south then ping me a message and I'll point you her way. If not I think this is what you should look for locally. Good luck fella.
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jfdm: Sounds like you had a pretty shit experience, which I'm sort of annoyed about even though it's nothing to do with me. Climbing and training should be fun, it should be enlightening, and it should use your brain as well as your body. The half an hour extra thing is f-ing ludicrous.
I'm in London 4 days a week so if you ever decide to do another "coaching" session let me know. I'm sure I can get someone on this thread to vouch that I know how to climb :) I normally climb at the arch but open to others. I'm not promising miracles, but I'm willing to offer the session for free if you find it disappointing.
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That sounds like a good deal! I'm sure payment in the form of a pint (or a skinny latte) wouldn't go amiss!
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I didn't want to be too honest with my feedback incase he got the hump.
It may be that we didn't click? Sometimes with the best will in the world an all!
I think you should name and shame give constructive criticism.
So who was it?
Maybe we should start a coaching recommendations/ criticisms thread?
I don't know if naming and shaming would be a good idea.
If it was your lively hood would you want to be named and shamed? I'd want to get better.
We have a debrief everyday at work. Along with appraisals twice a year etc, I reflect all the time how I can get better at my job, it pushes me forwards. The freelancer/ sole trading coach does not have this luxury.
Anyway you're being very diplomatic considering your experience. Perhaps at least alert them to this thread?
Uncles offer is very good because its free! I'm also London based, which wall do you train at?
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Thris thread has moved on a lot and I haven't read the lot, but I think there's a difference between 'training' and 'coaching': in my view coaching is about technique and to a lesser degree mindset, and training is about strength, power, stamina and so on.
My view is that strength & etc normally don't really kick in as material issues until you get to around 6c/7a
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6c is not that hard anymore.
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Haha you've gotta love people's ability to not read things and then put their own words there. Uncle never said he'd coach a session for free, he said if he was disappointed he'd do it for free.
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* dense beat me to it
Not sure I agree with that Sloper. I climb way lower than 6c and it's certainly a strength issue that holds me back. I've had a bit of 'coaching' including four hours with Lucy Creamer, who told me I was weak AND crap. Had a couple of sessions with Alex Fry who is strong himself, fall coaching with Katy Forrester for a few hours and I climb with plenty of other people who have coached or still do. If I get my footwork wrong, I get berated by myself long before anyone needs to tell me and whilst I have a way to go with climbing efficiently with a straight arm like Lucy Creamer picked me up on - my technique is pretty good these days. I'm just utterly weak. Can only manage one pullup at the moment and even when I focus on them for a couple of months... three, just three. I did manage 5 once, after dieting like mad and spending a whole two hours warming up specifically. I can't lock off. The list of weakness is endless. I can do two pullups using the Beastmaker mono slots however, so my fingers aren't horrific.
So whilst I've managed to onsight 6b on a slab, managed 6A/+ in Font within two goes, flashed V4, put me on anything slightly overhanging and I'm done for. It's got to the point that when people tell me to 'just' go climbing, learn technique and try hard, I shut off - been trying that for three years and it's basically got me nowhere. I had a two hour chat this week with the Youth Team coach and he said he just didn't understand why I'm not better, I put the effort in, my footwork is good but I don't think he realises that when I say I can't pull in or up, I literally mean it.
I do agree with the your point that there's a difference between using a trainer and a coach. The first to get climbing fit and strong, the other to get technique. That's maybe where people go wrong, just not picking the right person for what they want.
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6c is not that hard anymore.
I'm talking about Font 6c. Almost all font problems up to 6c should be climbable by substituting technique for power / strength.
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* dense beat me to it
Not sure I agree with that Sloper. I climb way lower than 6c and it's certainly a strength issue that holds me back. I've had a bit of 'coaching' including four hours with Lucy Creamer, who told me I was weak AND crap. Had a couple of sessions with Alex Fry who is strong himself, fall coaching with Katy Forrester for a few hours and I climb with plenty of other people who have coached or still do. If I get my footwork wrong, I get berated by myself long before anyone needs to tell me and whilst I have a way to go with climbing efficiently with a straight arm like Lucy Creamer picked me up on - my technique is pretty good these days. I'm just utterly weak. Can only manage one pullup at the moment and even when I focus on them for a couple of months... three, just three. I did manage 5 once, after dieting like mad and spending a whole two hours warming up specifically. I can't lock off. The list of weakness is endless. I can do two pullups using the Beastmaker mono slots however, so my fingers aren't horrific.
So whilst I've managed to onsight 6b on a slab, managed 6A/+ in Font within two goes, flashed V4, put me on anything slightly overhanging and I'm done for. It's got to the point that when people tell me to 'just' go climbing, learn technique and try hard, I shut off - been trying that for three years and it's basically got me nowhere. I had a two hour chat this week with the Youth Team coach and he said he just didn't understand why I'm not better, I put the effort in, my footwork is good but I don't think he realises that when I say I can't pull in or up, I literally mean it.
I do agree with the your point that there's a difference between using a trainer and a coach. The first to get climbing fit and strong, the other to get technique. That's maybe where people go wrong, just not picking the right person for what they want.
You clearly don't climb way lower than 6c if you've onsighted 6b and climbed 6a+ in a couple of goes, it just sounds like your technique on steep stuff is shit vs your technique on less steep stuff, if you can do mono pull ups you should be able to piss up steep stuff on jugs, I'm as weak as a kitten and can walk up steep 5's at a wall (e.g. the climbing works)
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Why? No they shouldn't, an overhanging 6c requires more strength than a slabby 6c conversely a slabby 6c requires more ability to stand on your feet than an overhanging 6c. People just pick numbers out and say climbing begins here, or training should begin here, no it doesn't.
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Unless jfdm changed who he was going to see, you don't have to be Clouseau to work out who his session was with by reading the thread...
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I wish that were so Sloper but the minute I have to pull hard, even on a jug, the climb is all over for me. It's true I avoid roofs due to stuffed knee ligaments but on really hard slabs, there are times when you need to pull. I can hold the crimp, get my foot on the hold but get some momentum going by pulling hard? It just doesn't happen. Frustrates the hell out of me...
I'm weaker than you and that Barrows fella. Of this there is no doubt. :(
*I've also failed miserably on many a 3C in the forest but it's Font, slabs there are no normal.
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Haha you've gotta love people's ability to not read things and then put their own words there. Uncle never said he'd coach a session for free, he said if he was disappointed he'd do it for free.
I thought that would be a given. ZING!
Oh god now I'm explaining a joke on UKB and to you of all people. Do I also have to explain why I know he meant Font 6c to Sloper?
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some interesting comments, good thread.
For me the key thing is to stop faffing and actually train, stop social climbing and get down to business. I clearly need a day by day plan. Real structure to the 12 weeks. I also need feedback. She helps by text, by email and by phone if needed between seeing her. She wrote my plan and one of the best things is she considered the limitations of time I have in my life.
Looking back at your posts you need something similar, a longer term coaching / a plan / a mentor to support. If youre around London/south then ping me a message and I'll point you her way. If not I think this is what you should look for locally. Good luck fella.
Thanks your post, you are right somebody can be show you this and that but at the end of the day it is all about putting in the time yourself. Physically doing the work. But also having a plan and sticking with it.
Your coach sounds brilliant. I will keep this in mind.
May pm you and get the coaches details- live and work in London - climb at Arch most Sat/Sunday's
Thanks a lot
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I was also referring to SA Chris' remark about a coffee or pint wouldn't go amiss not just your obviously quite good joke about uncle giving a disappointing coaching session. We know uncle his potential future employer may not. I've no idea what the word zing means
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Unless jfdm changed who he was going to see, you don't have to be Clouseau to work out who his session was with by reading the thread...
Not going to name names but coaching took place at large climbing centre in West London.
Also it wasn't with Steve or Neil.
With regard the centre - it is brilliant for routes, but absolutely appalling for bouldering.
The bouldering is like a warm-up venue for route climbers.
Difficult to tell how hard problems are, loads of caked chalk on holds - problem don't look like they are reset very often, also more expensive than the Arch.
Wanted the coach to come to the Arch but he didn't want to.
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Uncles offer is very good because its free! I'm also London based, which wall do you train at?
The Arch, where do you climb?
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* dense beat me to it
I do agree with the your point that there's a difference between using a trainer and a coach. The first to get climbing fit and strong, the other to get technique. That's maybe where people go wrong, just not picking the right person for what they want.
Completely agree, I personally thought I would improve my training first - which is why I went with a training type coach. Then look at technique in a few weeks time.
Instead of training the coached focused on technique, I must add here that I wasn't given any drills to practise other than to initiate movement from feet/legs/core - rather pulling with arms.
It was frustrating because a coach who works from the Arch was offering a technique session, which I turned down.
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Again thanks for the posts - one positive is that I am no longer a ukb "newbie" but now a "regular!"
Went to the Arch this morning.
Focused on trying to move more dynamically between holds.
On the comp wall managed to latch a dynamic move that had previously defeated me.
But fell off a move or two later!
So progress after one session.
The coached suggested campus boarding which I did towards the end of the session today.
On Wednesday could only manage 1&2 rung ladders but today did 1,2,3,4,
Again some progress.
All in all it ain't bad. The important thing it to enjoy the climbing whatever you are doing?
Rather than get too precious or tanked up about.
Have a good weekend everyone!
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Haha you've gotta love people's ability to not read things and then put their own words there. Uncle never said he'd coach a session for free, he said if he was disappointed he'd do it for free.
I thought that would be a given. ZING!
Oh god now I'm explaining a joke on UKB and to you of all people. Do I also have to explain why I know he meant Font 6c to Sloper?
Sorry, I'm full of a cold and feeling like a bit of 4x4 (and yes I know I'm wider than that before everyone points it out) and thought you were making reference to Ben Moon's old quote, also what has church furniture go to do with it, we're not talking about DWS.
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The coached suggested campus boarding which I did towards the end of the session today.
On Wednesday could only manage 1&2 rung ladders but today did 1,2,3,4,
Approach campus boarding with caution. If not done correctly you can injure yourself.
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How many minutes did that take you to type out Chris? Could have charged a couple of quid there...
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6c is not that hard anymore.
Your training must be going well... ;)
Drop me a text about climbing next week at the arch.
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How many minutes did that take you to type out Chris? Could have charged a couple of quid there...
If anyone wants training on how to injure yourself, I am highly experienced.
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Apologies if this has been said, I have read the thread quickly and am also considering having some coaching. I have had coaching in the past and it has varied both in price and quality. Coincidentally the most expensive was the worst.
My experience leads me to believe that you need to be very clear about what you want to improve and then check thoroughly that the coach or trainer you choose has a good track record in that field. Coaching is an unregulated activity, basically anyone can set themselves up as a coach, and therefore checking the claims of the coach against the testimony of real clients who have experienced real improvements is key.
If you are not sure what you want to improve, find a coach who has a good track record in observation and analysis to get a good baseline assessment first.
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I thought Sloper meant English 6c :unsure:
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The coached suggested campus boarding which I did towards the end of the session today.
On Wednesday could only manage 1&2 rung ladders but today did 1,2,3,4,
Approach campus boarding with caution. If not done correctly you can injure yourself.
Coach said once a week only campusing, don't try if not feeling up to it.
Ladder moves just up - then dropping off.
Maximum of 3 or 4 sets with rest of 2-3 minutes.
Do this for 4 weeks - then complete rest form it for a week.
Review and repeat.
Have been doing foot on campusing at the end of sessions most weeks since the summer.
Know I over did it with 2 sessions this week - but from now on once a week.
Coach said over doing it will cause injury.
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It's not just volume it's technique. I managed to knacker my elbows doing it badly just once
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I'm not sure what your climbing 'goals' are Jfdm, but the thing that really makes a difference in moving from v3 to say v9 is finger strength. Get strong fingers and your grade will improve. Technique improves with time on rock (lots of time) trying a wide variety of problems, routes, styles and rock types. Campusing with sloppy style and weak fingers / shoulders is a way to get injured. Climbing walls are often full of problems with big holds on steep walls with gymnastic moves, particulary at the lower end of grades. You could spend 6 months learning how to move from the hips or ladder on a campus board and not improve on rock at all. 0-30 deg overhanging incrementaly small foot and finger holds, supplement it with some core exercise and possibly dead hanging at a later stage and spend your free time on rock and away you go. Finger strength is the thing that seems to make the difference!
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Some training advice from a literary titan:
“Strong arms are for the boys and girls, strong fingers for the ladies and gentlemen; but they who aspire to be heroes must have core!”
― Samuel ""body tension of an ironing board" Johnson
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Disclaimer: this may sound like a personal attack, but i promise you it isnt. I may have missed posts where you addressed things i am about to mention. If so, flame me all you want.
If you really want a training plan purely for exercises that will either get you strong or tear you apart, find zippy.
Although I don't want to second guess yourself or the coach(es) you have hired, maybe a 'get massive or die trying' training programme (which is what it sound like you are looking for) isn't what you need because you aren't ready for it.
Throughout this thread (and maybe I just skipped the post, if so I accept the flame), I haven't seen you once explicitly analyse or critically asses your goals or why you (really) want to start training.
Plus having been an art teacher for 14 years, you must closer to your mid 30s than most would like I.e. may take longer for you to adapt into a training pattern. I can only assume you havent been climbing (properly) as long as you have been teaching art. It may just be you need to take a step back and re-assess what you think you need, and what you actually need.
Also, all coaches I know will always try and book a number of sessions, with session one being an assessment. As I think someone pointed to earlier, I don't think you understand what training is and why you really want to do it. That may be the best place to start.
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Disclaimer: this may sound like a personal attack, but i promise you it isnt.
I haven't seen you once explicitly analyse or critically asses your goals or why you (really) want to start training.
Plus having been an art teacher for 14 years, you must closer to your mid 30s than most would like I.e. may take longer for you to adapt into a training pattern. I can only assume you havent been climbing (properly) as long as you have been teaching art. It may just be you need to take a step back and re-assess what you think you need, and what you actually need.
Also, all coaches I know will always try and book a number of sessions, with session one being an assessment. As I think someone pointed to earlier, I don't think you understand what training is and why you really want to do it. That may be the best place to start.
Most people have been very supportive on the thread.
To answer some of your points
1. Don't know who "zippy" is?
2. What is the point in trying to break myself through training?
I wanted the coach/training to show me things that would complement what I do at home and at the wall to make my climbing better. Not to hurt myself within a week or two and then not be able to go climbing or make progress.
3. You say that I am closer to mid 30's "than most would like." I am not sure what you mean? I am older - 38 two weeks ago. I have not sat on my backside over the years away from climbing. I have always been interested in keeping fit - so been round the block, gym,running etc. For my age I would say I am in decent physical condition. So a good base level?
No I haven't been climbing as long as my teaching which is correct.
In my posts I have stated that any progress/adaptation may take longer due to my age.
When I first started climbing over 20 years ago - I loved it for what it is and still do.
A great activity for the mind and body, being outdoors, having a laugh, meeting people etc.
When I moved to London 15 years ago facilities where not as easy to get to as it is now. Even so a trip to the wall is 45 mins each way every time I go.
4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.
5. With regards block booking a coach - great if you know the coach. And would be a good idea. But the coach this week was unprofessional towards me - block booking wouldn't be the way forward here. Also at a £ a minute I would be broke if I block booked.
There's been loads of great advice on the tread and I will try and act on it!
There's plenty for me to reflect on.
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For me coaching is something I would consider if I plateau'd - reached a point where I didnt seem to be progressing... But as long as I climb enough times a week - I have seen steady improvement. Both in technique and strength.. (odd set backs for injury/working away not withstanding..)
I guess a coach can point out certain things - but if you climb with a group of people they'll often point things out as well... Especially if you are working a problem with a group of similar grade climbers you learn from different ways of approaching a problem, trying things, micro beta stuff like that...
Of course for some things you do just need to get stronger - or have better finger strength if your aims contain gnarly small holds - and there isn't a short cut for that.. just time, training and effort.
All this (I suppose) comes down to your (by your I mean ones etc..) motivation. For me it is seeing some form of progression over time - and I'm happy trotting up through the grades - and consolidating on grades that used to be at my limit. If your aim is to get to 8A in 5 years (etc...) then some form of more structured training - maybe coaching - is part of a solution to that, to try and speed things up.
Just my musings...
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I'd take on board what posters are saying about having specific goals.
4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.
Like you say it's an ambiguous goal - there's nothing at all wrong with it but it doesn't really require coaching or give any coach much to focus on. I imagine it would be a tough ask for any coach to do much more than give you generic advice which tbh you could get from articles and partners. They could give you a list of exercises with a weekly plan but I doubt you'd benefit from that as much as from just climbing.
A desire to climb and a bit of time spent climbing, especially with better climbers (just watching them works) and you'll progress. A bit of simple fingerboarding if you think your finger strength is going to hold you back, a bit of campussing when you feel you've not enough power.
You say you've progressed to v4. What factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?
(meter's running)
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@jfdm
1. Don't know who "zippy" is?
http://www.markpretty.co.uk/ (http://www.markpretty.co.uk/)
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Interesting thread.
Petejh wrote "what factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?"
It seems to me that is THE question a coach should be helping you answer. For most it'll be an unpleasant answer, since it's probably something we shy away from, dislike, and rarely practise.
I think the downside to writing someone a programme without focussing on these weaknesses is they'll surely do more of what they're already good at and so like, thus the relative weakness gets worse not better.
2 areas that I have identified and made good grade progress by addressing are overly static movement and fear of falling (still ways to go). My pathetic crimp strength is my current focus - god I hate crimps! - and hopefully also my best opportunity for quick-ish improvement. In each case it's been a multi year effort to really face up to the thing rather than doing other stuff I prefer.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that a good coach should have uncomfortable messages. Of course they need the people skills to manage that! Your guy obviously didn't.
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JDFM - Do you mind me asking how much you paid for your session (I may have missed this)? It's hard to asses whether or not you're justifiably underwhelmed without this information.
I believe the BMC now have a course which people can take that aims to help people learn how to coach/teach climbing. Knowing a few people who've been on this, they were skeptical at first but afterwards they were pleasantly surprised. Offwidth has confirmed this course isn't just in my mind.
Firstly I'd have thought about what you feel might be your weaknesses (ask a few friends to be frank) and then picked a coach that fits your needs based upon that (and feedback).
For instance if it was movement related (I'm in Sheffield) I'd speak to someone such as Rob Napier. If I was looking to get euro fit (I'd just hassle Barrows as I do) I'd consider Tommy. However, I'd imagine these would be very different prices, one is a session (of x number), the other is based upon a deliverable (and possible contact throughout the programme). Unless you're making very fundamental, basic movement errors I struggle to see how an hour or so can contain much useful information.
...I can't begin to imagine how much a pro coach might charge for the likes of someone looking for Shauna type coaching (the only person (or maybe there are two?) I know use a Spanish coach).
Remember, not all coaches are equal, I've heard some truly awful advice coming from a number of coaches. I'd look for someone specifically good at training others, rather than good at training themselves.
One good thing about training in Sheffield (IMO) is that I can ask a range of people what my weaknesses are and I'd get an honest (and informed) appraisal. It's far too easy to stick your head in the sand and keep chasing POWER etc. Maybe Uncle and Cowboyhat could do this for free. You can climb and they can hurl abuse at you (this is akin to a busy night on the wave). ;)
You mention private trainers and programmes written at the Gym. Having been a member at various establishments of this type I'd say they're likely very unspecific and barely worth the paper they're written on. As part of joining one gym I had to take an induction and the trainer wouldn't listen when I said leg press wasn't too relevant to my goals. Obviously some PTs are great and massively informed, a lot are not.
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Think he said it was a pound a minute for am hour and a half?
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Interesting thread.
Petejh wrote "what factors are stopping you climbing v5."
It seems to me that is THE question a coach should be helping you answer. For most it'll be an unpleasant answer, since it's probably something we shy away from, dislike, and rarely practise.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that a good coach should have uncomfortable messages. Of course they need the people skills to manage that! Your guy obviously didn't.
Hi Pete ,
As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.
I was expecting some "uncomfortable messages."
Criticism is fine as long as it is constructive, the "coach" offered me nothing more than "initiate movement through feet, legs and core rather than arms shoulders."
I was expecting a little more than that, a bit more insight.
Some methods to correct the problem?
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For me coaching is something I would consider if I plateau'd - reached a point where I didnt seem to be progressing... But as long as I climb enough times a week - I have seen steady improvement. Both in technique and strength.. (odd set backs for injury/working away not withstanding..)
I guess a coach can point out certain things - but if you climb with a group of people they'll often point things out as well... Especially if you are working a problem with a group of similar grade climbers you learn from different ways of approaching a problem, trying things, micro beta stuff like that...
Of course for some things you do just need to get stronger - or have better finger strength if your aims contain gnarly small holds - and there isn't a short cut for that.. just time, training and effort.
All this (I suppose) comes down to your (by your I mean ones etc..) motivation. For me it is seeing some form of progression over time - and I'm happy trotting up through the grades - and consolidating on grades that used to be at my limit. If your aim is to get to 8A in 5 years (etc...) then some form of more structured training - maybe coaching - is part of a solution to that, to try and speed things up.
Just my musings...
Thanks TomTom,
Some good advice, at the end of the day it all depends on the amount of effort you put in. If you put in the time and effort your climbing should improve, regardless of the coaching input.
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I'd take on board what posters are saying about having specific goals.
4. My goal although ambiguous is to move up the V scale and just continue to make progress - at the moment I can regularly climb v3/4 having got back into climbing about 18 months ago - I'm pleased with the progress I have made. Want to now push on to v4/5 if I can.
A desire to climb and a bit of time spent climbing, especially with better climbers (just watching them works) and you'll progress. A bit of simple fingerboarding if you think your finger strength is going to hold you back, a bit of campussing when you feel you've not enough power.
You say you've progressed to v4. What factors are stopping you climb v5 at the moment?
(meter's running)
Thanks Pete,
Some good advice again, I think everybody is saying the same thing.
Keep climbing and the improvements should happen.
Rather than looking for the magic bullet?
What's holding me back, the following are weakness, with some possible solutions, moving dynamically between well spaced holds - climb more steep problems, slopers - work on grip strength/contact strength - climb more sloper problems, physically fingers could be stronger - fingerboard/campus, need to engage core when climbing - steep climbing/core exercises, flexibility in legs/hips - yoga.
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As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.
I thought your chief criticism through most of the thread was that you wanted to spend the time talking about training and not technique? If you'd already talked to them about being bad at dynamic movement why would you be surprised if they spent a bunch of time on that?
I don't know you, but I'd guess that time with a coach would be better spent on technique rather than training for 90% of people in your position - I'd be tempted to go for a movement orientated coach if you have another session..
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As I have said throughout the thread, I climb on my own.
So thought having a coaching session, would help me identify weakness and give me some drills and exercises to do. I knew my dynamic movement wasn't up to scratch, I'd emailed the coach before hand about this.
I thought your chief criticism through most of the thread was that you wanted to spend the time talking about training and not technique? If you'd already talked to them about being bad at dynamic movement why would you be surprised if they spent a bunch of time on that?
I don't know you, but I'd guess that time with a coach would be better spent on technique rather than training for 90% of people in your position - I'd be tempted to go for a movement orientated coach if you have another session..
In hindsight I totally agree with you.
I would say to anybody thinking about coaching/training is initially have an assessment by the coach/trainer and take it from there. Be open minded about things.
I can only climb at the weekends so thought a coach could work out a plan of action to help me train at home. That is why I thought it better to focus on training.
At a later date get a session focusing on technique.
As you said the coach focused on technique but I felt he was of little help.
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JDFM - Do you mind me asking how much you paid for your session (I may have missed this)? It's hard to asses whether or not you're justifiably underwhelmed without this information.
Remember, not all coaches are equal, I've heard some truly awful advice coming from a number of coaches. I'd look for someone specifically good at training others, rather than good at training themselves.
You mention private trainers and programmes written at the Gym. Having been a member at various establishments of this type I'd say they're likely very unspecific and barely worth the paper they're written on. As part of joining one gym I had to take an induction and the trainer wouldn't listen when I said leg press wasn't too relevant to my goals. Obviously some PTs are great and massively informed, a lot are not.
Some good advice Paul, thanks.
To answer some of your points - £90 for an hour and a half.
You are right about not all coaches are equal, I am sure that there are more insightful ones than the coach I used.
With regards trainers at the gym, yes they give out generic programmes but at least they give you something to work with. I outlined in my emails to the coach that I wanted from him some kind of programme to follow at home and down the wall. I didn't get even a generic programme, the advice boiled down to climb as often as possible particularly on steep problems.
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As I have said throughout thank you for all the helpful comments.
I will for the time being keep climbing and focus on my weakness as much as possible. Try to be a bit more selective in the types of problems I tackle.
I am leaning towards being a bit more organised and maybe keeping a training diary.
Training plans at home can be photocopied and stuck into the diary -other things could be added to the diary, work undertaken at wall etc- don't know if others do this?
The idea is that if I kept things up to date could have a good record of progress.
With regards coaching, thinking about working with another coach around Christmas/New Year. Hopefully this time I find the experience more beneficial.
Happy climbing :2thumbsup:
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With regards trainers at the gym, yes they give out generic programmes but at least they give you something to work with. I outlined in my emails to the coach that I wanted from him some kind of programme to follow at home and down the wall. I didn't get even a generic programme, the advice boiled down to climb as often as possible particularly on steep problems.
You were obviously looking for something more specific, but maybe that's the correct answer? I'm not saying it is, but maybe consider the fact it could be.
If you're fundamentally lacking movement skills and dynamic movements I don't see the above as terrible advice.
/2p
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Interesting discussion, a reflection of the evolving position of coaching in UK climbing. Thank you for being so open about your experiences. I'm hoping the coach will read this and, once his ire has subsided, will reflect on his handling of the session.
There has been a misunderstanding of expectations. Differing views on what is likely to be of most benefit to the client must be very common but it’s up to the coach to communicate and negotiate which doesn’t seem to have happened very well here.
I’ve observed coaching at the London walls I frequent. Some of it seems quite dubious - but I am rather opinionated about such things despite being a punter. I've no idea what standards are like elsewhere but it’s not hard to imagine the competition is greater and clientele better informed.
There seem several linked ways a coach could help: 1. Assessment of client’s strengths and weaknesses in movement, the physical stuff, and psychology. 2. Help with goal-setting. 3. Teaching movement, prescribing training regimes, working on mental skills and adapting/progressing all three as the client improves (or not), and 4. Providing syke and encouragement.
You wanted 3. - specifically the training regime bit - and some 4. Your coach presumably felt he had to assess you first, after which he felt you’d benefit more from working on your movement skills. He might be right but there was a communication breakdown at that point.
From casual observation, many folk operating at <F7a (and plenty above) would benefit most from improving movement fluency and mental skills. If you asked them they would probably tell you they were most lacking in strength, fitness or flexibility. I don’t know if you fit this profile but you’d be with plenty of others if you did. If you just want a training programme, this book (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,24532.msg459549.html#msg459549) will provide it, no need for a coach. As I hinted at in this review, it doesn't address the moment and psychological issues that are (IMO) greatest limits to folk at your/my level. The Self-Coached Climber is much better in this respect.
My 2p? Like SEDur and others, I think you need to think more about your goals and be open about what is most likely to help you achieve them. From your writing you’re moving in that direction. Good luck!
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1. For that price, the first 20 minutes of real conversation should be free.
2. The trainee should be able to ask what he wants from the trainer and the trainer should be able to provide wh
at he tries to deliver.
I cannot say more about this.
What if ... ???
You want something, he wants to deliver for money.
If you did not read all threads on training here, the free Anderson book, and all these free resources on the net, some good, some bad, or cannot comprehend it ... you need a trainer 24/7 ... or a nurse if you are geriatric.
If you did, and you climb only in the weekends, you might get good progress from consulting multiple sources (also trainers).
But so much variables? I'm even maxin out on my pullup reps without advice ...
Lots of dots whatever :-) Good luck and have fun!
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If you're looking for more of a physical training plan, may I suggest:
Team of 2 training - http://teamof2climbing.com/ (http://teamof2climbing.com/)
They're not local but they are well respected coaches, and generally know thier stuff.
At the wall the other day a few people were gawping at videos of Pooch executing various impressive feats of strength but I have to say I had a bit of a giggle to myself. The commentary pretty much said "glad team of 2 are here to push me to do things I don't want to do and improve my climbing" (heavily paraphrased). Wheras the video appeared to me (and the rest of their media profile if I'm honest) of pretty much pure physical training, clearly in this instance (and certainly mine too) not a particular area of weakness.
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Re: Is a climbing coaching session a good idea?
In my opinion, and for all but complete beginners, no.
The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.
For movement skills, go to the local wall bouldering area, be sociable and attempt problems with others especially those climbing harder/better than you. Monkey see. monkey do. Cost:free.
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The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.
Has Dense written a book?
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I always wonder when I read posts like this, I can't remember writing a damn book! Is the Alzheimer's kicking in?
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At the wall the other day a few people were gawping at videos of Pooch
Understandable, unsurprising. Personally I'd be more likely to gawp at videos of Melissa Le Neve or Jule Wurm, but either way it wouldn't have much to do with training.
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Completely off topic, I second Mr. Muench.
Alex is surely nice, but I find it hard to be attracted by a girl whose shoulders and lats could shelter a small house from a tornado.
Maybe it's just me... :shrug:
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I always wonder when I read posts like this, I can't remember writing a damn book! Is the Alzheimer's kicking in?
You could just write one sentence duplicated on each of 400 pages of 'Lee Anderson's manual of training for rock climbing': 'buy the other Anderson's training book'. The quote below would then still be correct.
The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.
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Completely off topic, I second Mr. Muench.
Alex is surely nice, but I find it hard to be attracted by a girl whose shoulders and lats could shelter a small house from a tornado.
Maybe it's just me... :shrug:
The two of you would create a testosterone deficit in the rest of us.
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I always wonder when I read posts like this, I can't remember writing a damn book! Is the Alzheimer's kicking in?
You could just write one sentence duplicated on each of 400 pages of 'Lee Anderson's manual of training for rock climbing': 'buy the other Anderson's training book'. The quote below would then still be correct.
The Andersons latest book is cheaper and if followed to the letter even with little understanding of why, will still yeild steady and continious improvements in the physical aspects of climbing.
I believe Dense's version would in fact read more along the lines of ....
"Man the Fuck up and stop pissing about".
Which would also, if followed to the letter, have the same results...
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It could be a 400 page stick man page animation of someone doing a one armer :)
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I am going to get a coaching session soon but I will be asking to focus on technique. Thats not to say that I wouldn't expect him to tell me if I have any glaring weaknesses physically but honestly there is so much training material out there if you want to get stronger that I don't see much merit in focussing on that in a coaching session unless you are super strong already and out of ideas.
Physical weaknesses are quite obvious usually but bad technique can also obscure your strength as well. If you are in the wrong position to utilise the strength you have you may find a move "too strong" when you just need to adjust something else to bring the strength to bear.
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Pardon? Bad technique is just as glaringly obvious as not much strength! Here's an idea, why don't weak people say technique is better so work on that and strong people say strength is better so work on that.
That's £30, double if anyone lives in London.
Buy me 20 coffees and over the course of an hr I'll tell you how to improve.
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Bad technique is not as obvious as a lack of strength. Changing something very small in your body position can make a huge difference to how easy a move is. That tweak in body position is not always that obvious and a lack of strength is blamed.
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No it is glaringly obvious. You're talking about body position on a certain move not bad technique. If, for instance, you try to flag a move and you can't do it then you do it easily by frogging it you have just used bad technique the first time. If you flag a move and can't do it but keep trying and eventually do it that's body positioning.
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Semantics Dense. In any case, most people would include being able to hit the most appropriate body positions quickly as coming very much under 'good technique'..
Sometimes bad technique is obvious (e.g. front-on burling up something that can be drop-kneed easily), other times it's not (e.g. subtle aspects of body-positioning, timing, coordination). Even if it is obvious (e.g. your heel keeps popping on a move), the underlying cause might not always be obvious (body position? Not focusing on pulling hard with the leg? Puling hard with the leg at the wrong time or in the wrong way? etc)
Anyway, that's just a long way of saying that you're wrong.
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Dense moves like Le Menestrel, it's joy to watch. He's my go-to man for technique advice, that's for damn sure.
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In much the same way that you're my go to guy for anything involving any kind of strength.
I thought the current fad was that you don't need to be , or have been, gifted at something to coach it? I have eyes and know when someone is doing a move wrong, isn't using the right technique to do a move or simply isn't strong enough to do a move.
Alex I know bad technique is sometimes not obvious I apologise if I'm coming from the obvious angle of saying someone who wants coaching does not need to know the minutiae of this rather than the general overview.
And how someone who wants coaching tells the coach what he wants to improve upon is also beyond me? Surely the coach will know what they need to improve upon? I know I put a question mark there, it's not really a question.
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You've turned american on us?
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That is really mean :(
Dude
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That is really mean :(
Dude
Lost your car Dense?
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I always thought that the reason I was bad at heel hooks was because I have inflexible hips and I lack the knack for it.
A friend, who is a very good coach as it happens, gave me a training programme for the Swiss ball. The programme was 12 weeks of really hard work. After which I could use heel hooks just fine.
I don't think anyone realised that the reason I was bad at heel hooks was because of weak gluts. At least no one told me.
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I always thought I had inflexible hips until a couple or so yrs ago I saw a chiropractor mate who said they're flexible it's your lower back that's tight as ****! Gave me some ex's to do and sorted it out, it's still my go to area for when any kind of ailments coming on tho! Can feel it starting to tighten again
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How this topic got to 6 pages is beyond me.
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Topic drift. No big secret.
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I don't think anyone realised that the reason I was bad at heel hooks was because of weak gluts. At least no one told me.
I always get feelings of tension in my mid back, between and below my shoulder blades, when I try any kind of shoulder mobility exercises. Thought it was because my rhomboids are too tight, until I had it explained to me yesterday that it's because they're barely accustomed to doing anything at, and so immediately cramp up when I try to use them. Oh.
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Physical weaknesses are quite obvious usually but bad technique can also obscure your strength as well. If you are in the wrong position to utilise the strength you have you may find a move "too strong" when you just need to adjust something else to bring the strength to bear.
I wouldn't be so black and white about this, strength and its good application (technique) are interdependent to some extent and one could also argue about the neuromuscular side of it (your brain learning to properly fire the right muscles in the right pattern)
Etc etc
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How about this for keeping track of your training?
http://www.climbcoach.org/climbcoach/your-training (http://www.climbcoach.org/climbcoach/your-training)
Cheaper than a coaching session?
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How about this for keeping track of your training?
http://www.climbcoach.org/climbcoach/your-training (http://www.climbcoach.org/climbcoach/your-training)
Cheaper than a coaching session?
The diary element doesn't work properly. Or at least on the one I have, its version 1.0.4 there have never been bug fixes/updates that cover the faults on mine.
I thought the app was useful for suggesting exercises, and as a timer, but not for following a plan.
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I think that my training sessions will be more like this in 2015?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0bHF5Yfu_jQ (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0bHF5Yfu_jQ)
:bounce:
Merry Christmas everybody!
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Well I thought I'd better up date, it's been nearly 2 years since my post about my coaching session. It basically put me off.
A few weeks ago I had my second coaching session ever.
Summoning up the courage and the cash, to give it another whirl. With a different coach ;D
It was pretty tough going but an eye opener.
I thought I was a pretty reasonable climber but the coach soon spotted some significant flaws in my technique within a minute or two.
He captured this on a camera phone and I was able to see how front on I was as a climber.
The rest of the session was then spent trying to improve this aspect of my climbing.
The coach was supportive, giving me lots of feedback, drills etc.
So a much better experience than the last one.
Why the post, as a climber you can read all the books, YouTube clips, try hard etc. Thinking you are doing great. But develop some sloppy technique.
As a takeaway just videoing yourself can be an eye opener and really help improve your climbing.
Have fun everyone, happy climbing.
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As a takeaway just videoing yourself can be an eye opener and really help improve your climbing.
Yeah I thought I was climbing like Antoine LeMenestrel till I saw my videos of a recent trip. Turns out it was more like John Sargeant. Who'd have guessed?
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Who was your recent session with jfdm?
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As a takeaway just videoing yourself can be an eye opener and really help improve your climbing.
Yeah I thought I was climbing like Antoine LeMenestrel till I saw my videos of a recent trip. Turns out it was more like John Sargeant. Who'd have guessed?
Yep I always try to mimic the big Adam Ondra.
But it turns out I'm more like a penguin, very flat footed on land.
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Who was your recent session with jfdm?
Robin O'Leary, session was expensive but I felt it was worth it.
I learned a lot from it.
Will book a further session once technique is better.