UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Wellsy on February 16, 2024, 06:13:39 pm
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https://www.instagram.com/p/C3avZHUsI0E/?igsh=MW41eGF3ZGFhMXRzZQ==
Ondra has repeated Bon Voyage, says if bolted it would be a very solid and specific 9a and has also said E12...
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What a weapon, I love how he's happy to get stuck in on stuff that's on paper not in his style. Gotta be so much potential for hard trad if Ondra et al turn their sights in that direction, realistically there's just a massive gap between what the best sport climbers and boulderers are doing, and what's being done on trad.
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Absolute legend! Once again, Ondra goes and shows how far above everyone else he is!
So so good!
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What a weapon, I love how he's happy to get stuck in on stuff that's on paper not in his style. Gotta be so much potential for hard trad if Ondra et al turn their sights in that direction, realistically there's just a massive gap between what the best sport climbers and boulderers are doing, and what's being done on trad.
Isn't trad just too much faffing? Like I said before: most routes in Flatanger could be trad routes, but imaging the amount of time you'd spend cleaning after every fall on Silence. Without bolts it would be impossible to clean I'd imagine.
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Wouldnt have to be a 9c necessarily. He could still put a few days in to a 9a+ trad route and put up the worlds first E13 without too much work.
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imaging the amount of time you'd spend cleaning after every fall on Silence. Without bolts it would be impossible to clean I'd imagine.
That's why you need a strong climbing partner who can second!
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Possibly the hardest trad-protected route in the world...in 3 days.
:bow: to the O, as always.
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What a ledge
I love how he isn't afraid to give routes a grade. He's generally very accurate too.
I thought this had been mooted to be 9a+?? From when Steve Mac was there.
At least theres a grade attached to the route now as post TWOL JP was understandably nervous
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Now Ondra has climbed the hardest single and multipitch trad. routes in the world as well as the (likely) hardest sport route we're just waiting for the Terranova upgrade for him to complete the set.
Wouldnt have to be a 9c necessarily. He could still put a few days in to a 9a+ trad route and put up the worlds first E13 without too much work.
About 2 sport grades per E-grade usually? So if the 9a+ was run-out but safe, in the style Bon Voyage appears to be, wouldn't it still be E12 albeit a hard one? If things start become dangerous, rather than just spicy, E-grades rises rapidly but I don't see any proper 9a+ climber interested in operating at that standard with real risk involved. If someone can find Ondra a run-out-but-safe 9b/+ then E13 might well get climbed.
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About 2 sport grades per E-grade usually?
Possibly not the right place for this but should we looking at what the E grade means? 2 sport grades per E grade is 8a E7, 8b E8, 8c E9, 9a E10, 9b E11, 9c E12. It's seems pretty obvious that while Onda didn't by any means find Bon Voyage trivial it took him significantly less effort than climbing 9c.
More positively brilliant stuff by Ondra showing up for the challenge and delivering yet again, and great for JP to put his route out there and see it validated as possibly (probably?) the hardest trad route in the world.
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Hopefully we can all just forget about the ‘E12’ tag, especially considering it’s in France, which made it seem more ridiculous in the first place, and concentrate on the ‘hard 9a’ from Ondra, which is a great endorsement I think.
I wonder whether he found this harder than the crux pitches on Dawn Wall, amazing that there’s someone who gets to compare!
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I would have thought though that E7 could be anything from maybe 7a to 8aish? Dunno about stuff above that but seems wrong to think it needs to be 9c to justify E12.
I know the E-grader thingy got a lot of stick, but it worked well for the stuff I plugged into it at my lowly level and I reckon the wads promoting it had a point that the progression though the grades should be “linear” - otherwise the E grade for hard stuff will end up broken.
And according to the E grader 9a run out equals E12.
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I wonder whether he found this harder than the crux pitches on Dawn Wall, amazing that there’s someone who gets to compare!
And amazing that person considers themself 'not an expert in trad climbing'!
Brilliant effort and style from Ondra, as always :bow:
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Hopefully we can all just forget about the ‘E12’ tag, especially considering it’s in France, which made it seem more ridiculous in the first place, and concentrate on the ‘hard 9a’ from Ondra, which is a great endorsement I think.
Absolutely :agree: (despite my comments above :-\)
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I would have thought though that E7 could be anything from maybe 7a to 8aish? Dunno about stuff above that but seems wrong to think it needs to be 9c to justify E12.
Obviously it doesn't need to be 9c to be E12 but if the E grade is in some way a useful measure of difficulty (not necessarily true!), then a runout E12 with some danger should be a similar level of difficulty to a totally safe E12. For Ondra one took 3 days while the other took multiple trips and specific training, don't really appear to be the same difficulty.
None of this knocks either Ondra's or JP's efforts , if Bon Voyage was E11
and E11 was equivalent in difficulty to 9b/9b+ it would mean JP had produced one of the very top ascents by any British climber and Ondra had completed a world class quick repeat
On the other side maybe higher E grades dont correspond to sport grades in the same way as E4- E8ish and instead become a bit narrower in the higher end, which I guess is fine if a bit confusing.
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a runout E12 with some danger should be a similar level of difficulty to a totally safe E12
Er no, for the same reason that a runout E7 with some danger should be about 7a+ and a totally safe E7 should be about 8a. Clearly they’re not the same level of physical difficulty.
Applying the same “width” of sports grades would mean that a runout E12 with some danger should be about 8c+ and a totally safe E12 should be about 9c. Obviously again one of those is physically harder than the other.
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About 2 sport grades per E-grade usually?
Possibly not the right place for this but should we looking at what the E grade means? 2 sport grades per E grade is 8a E7, 8b E8, 8c E9, 9a E10, 9b E11, 9c E12.
That's if those routes are totally safe. If it's a bit pokey, add an E grade, if it's very spicy add two, death add 3. So a spicy, run out 9a would be E12.
Brilliant efforts by James and Adam. Proper climbing, proper grades, properly impressive.
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Brilliant. Brought a smile to my face this morning. And Pearson gets his long overdue legit E12 after all :dance1:
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Brilliant. Brought a smile to my face this morning. And Pearson gets his long overdue legit E12 after all :dance1:
Very chuffed for him, redemption!!
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That's if those routes are totally safe. If it's a bit pokey, add an E grade, if it's very spicy add two, death add 3. So a spicy, run out 9a would be E12.
Brilliant efforts by James and Adam. Proper climbing, proper grades, properly impressive.
Probably my last comment on this since everybody seems to disagree with me (which maybe means I'm wrong). This definition means that it appears to be much easier for for AO to climb a spicy E12 (Bon Voyage) than a bolted E12 (Silence, B.I.G?). Which seems to mean that spicy E12 is significantly less of a challenge i.e. less difficult 'overall' rather than just less difficult physically.
Anyway as said this doesn't matter, Bon Voyage is obviously an awesome effort and JP must be totally made up that Ondra came , put in a proper effort, and repeated it. And despite other climbers competing with him at the top end of repointing etc it seems that Ondra is still pretty much unequivocally the best climber in the world.
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Only three days and got on the lead on day 2 ... sounds like he didn't have to overcome any huge psychological barriers before getting on with it. Whether redpointing, onsighting, or tradding it seems like Ondra's full bore a muerte commitment if often what really sets him apart.
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That's if those routes are totally safe. If it's a bit pokey, add an E grade, if it's very spicy add two, death add 3. So a spicy, run out 9a would be E12.
Brilliant efforts by James and Adam. Proper climbing, proper grades, properly impressive.
Probably my last comment on this since everybody seems to disagree with me (which maybe means I'm wrong). This definition means that it appears to be much easier for for AO to climb a spicy E12 (Bon Voyage) than a bolted E12 (Silence, B.I.G?). Which seems to mean that spicy E12 is significantly less of a challenge i.e. less difficult 'overall' rather than just less difficult physically.
Anyway as said this doesn't matter, Bon Voyage is obviously an awesome effort and JP must be totally made up that Ondra came , put in a proper effort, and repeated it. And despite other climbers competing with him at the top end of repointing etc it seems that Ondra is still pretty much unequivocally the best climber in the world.
This line of thinking makes no sense to me. Its only "less of a challenge" for Ondra to climb a bold route of a given grade because he's good at dealing with the uncertainties of iffy gear and long falls. It's the same for any grade. For people who go to pieces when above gear Edge Lane is going to be a pipe dream E5, but London Wall much more attainable. Kingholmsey is correct.
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Brilliant. Brought a smile to my face this morning. And Pearson gets his long overdue legit E12 after all :dance1:
I’m useless with grades so maybe this is a stupid question, but what’s Ondra’s trad background like to confirm that it’s E12? Not that I’m doubting at all, just curious.
I know he’s done plenty of hard stuff, but not sure what E-grades they equate to.
Will his grade confirmation be based on the 9a level, which means E12 is legit given the gear?
Having done one VS in my life, trad grades are pretty meaningless to me…
Mega effort from both of them either way!
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well isn't british trad grades only used by british - bit weird to give E grade to something overseas? I would imagine ondra has no idea what E9 or E10 or anything like that would mean, how would he? Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.
I think all that we can take from this is that grade 9a was confirmed by Ondra, as well being quite run out, but 'probably safe'. According to Pearsons own calculator, it is E12, would be rather more interesting to know where did the top dogs in trad such as macleod, mclure got to as far as agreement with the darth grader.
either way great job Pearson :great:
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Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.
Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.
Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.
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well isn't british trad grades only used by british - bit weird to give E grade to something overseas? I would imagine ondra has no idea what E9 or E10 or anything like that would mean, how would he? Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.
Despite all the teeth gnashing Brits like to do about E grades they're not really that complicated and are broadly useful in describing how hard and dangerous a route is. If he can answer questions like 'how hard did it feel?' and 'how dangerous did it feel?' you're most of the way there, especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.
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Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.
Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.
Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.
Let’s not forget P-whiddy’s Crown Royale ~9a and Tribe? Though JP rinsed that pretty quickly…
Be ace to see the O-dog on Crown Royale… maybe even for him to give it a flash go!?
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especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.
...which was universally well received!?!
Calibrating something against a model is backward.
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especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.
...which was universally well received!?!
Calibrating something against a model is backward.
Sure, but if you have little experience with e grades then "visit the website and play around with it for half an hour" is a lore more practical than "climb a thousand trad routes in the UK" and will get you 95% of the way there.
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Which is based on the assumption the website/model is actually a useful one. It's old ground but the initial release at least was based on flawed assumptions IMO (and I wasn't the only one). I can't remember where Barrows wrote his thoughts up, was it here or an Insta comment? Anyway, that.
I agree with the rest of your post though and with a climber with such breadth of experience it should be pretty easy to discuss relative difficulty and danger and offer some benchmarks. British tech grades make a lot more sense than just adding an R to anything where you have to use wires instead of plugging in cams.
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Despite all the teeth gnashing Brits like to do about E grades they're not really that complicated and are broadly useful in describing how hard and dangerous a route is.
:agree: All hail his Royal Majesty's jolly fine Great Brexitish grading system of doing a spiffing job of descrbing the challenge on one's ascent, tally ho!
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British tech grades make a lot more sense than just adding an R to anything where you have to use wires instead of plugging in cams.
Are these the same British tech grades where 6C can cover a range from at least V5-V10, and that aren't supposed to be influenced by how pumped/powered out/scared you are but in practice always are - but to an extent that's totally unpredictable without prior knowledge about the peer group of the first ascentionist? ;)
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Does anyone ever truly understand the challenge they are going to face without some kind of narrative alongside the E +/- tech grade? For all the reasons already mentioned. Does it add anything to the 9a and a story? Does it save words? (Certainly not in debate).
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Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.
Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.
Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.
Connor Henson said 5.14c for Empath on bolts but bit harder placing gear rather than bolts so maybe 5.14d for the gear ascent.
Ondra said BV would be very solid 9a if bolted and placing gear makes it physically a bit harder. Sounds like it's a very strong contender for the hardest trad route in the world. Particularly since JP has done tribe and AO Dawn Wall (aren't the hardest pitches on Dawn Wall pretty much bolt lines?).
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Yes, EV does sounds right up there with the hardest.
Regardless of the merits or demerits of the English tech grade, what actually is it? Surely, the E12 tag is incomplete without a tech grade being assigned to it.
Also, regarding Dawn Wall, Ondra apparently thought the crux pitches were a little overgraded at 9a. He also did the loop pitch rather than the dyno. From this interview https://stara.emontana.cz/adam-ondra-dawn-wall-interview/ (https://stara.emontana.cz/adam-ondra-dawn-wall-interview/) :
"And what about the ratings of the key pitches? Do you find them OK? Would you rate them 9a routes in the sport climbing areas?
In my opinion the 14th pitch is a bit of an easier 9a, so it fits the guidebook. The 15th pitch, and Tommy himself said it too, should be 8c+. I would agree with that. But then there are a lot of 8b+ pitches which I could rate 8c in some areas. Lots of those 8a+ could be 8b or even more, I reckon. So, I find the most difficult pitches a little bit overrated but it is compensated by the fact that any of those 8a could be rated higher."
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Pretty sure Paul B meant UK adjectival grade??
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Without having even seen any of the contentenders in real life, Empath looks like a route any solid 9a onsighter could go up with a bunch of gear and be quite confident they would get to the belay without any issues. Bon Voyage looks like something that would a solid 9a onsighter would be just daft to go ground-up on with a few cams on the harness.
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When you say "any solid 9a onsighter" do you mean Ondra or Megos as I believe they are the only ones who have done that.
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I don't think Megos is a solid 9a onsighter, he has not done enough of them. But in the future there will be more of them.
If something like Empath is 7c+ (by being less steep or having better friction e.g.) I would not hesitate to try ground up. If a route looking like Empath was 7c+ I would never try ground up in a million years.
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Pretty sure Paul B meant UK adjectival grade??
I meant the combination, as in relative difficulty in a band tells you more about the risk involved than slapping an R after something.
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wide boyz been snooping around here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZNj6K9xXVA&ab_channel=WideBoyz
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Christ can you NSFW-hide that thumbnail please, mods >:( :sick: :shit:
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OK, well I'm calling it E12 7a from the comfort of my almchair. Somebody who has tried or done it would need to make the call whether its E12 7b or not.
To me, it needs that English tech grade to make any sense at all. Headhunter E5 in Pembroke is a shit grade, E5 6a so much better.
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English tech grade. Haha. :wall:
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That thumbnail is a disgrace but the first 10 mins of that video were decent. Not sure how they're going to fill another 30!
Tech grade is essentially meaningless whether it's 7a or 7b. Up to 6b is 100% useful, 6c maybe just about still useful but not hugely.
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Tech grade is essentially meaningless whether it's 7a or 7b. Up to 6b is 100% useful, 6c maybe just about still useful but not hugely.
:agree: Surely everyone agrees the English tech grade is broken above 6c? Would be good if we can avoid the adjectival E grade from ending up being useless at the top end too.
I think an adjectival E grade tells you more than just chucking an R on the end of a sports grade, and as such is worth preserving.
I’m sure it’s been suggested before but in my view the most useful combination is an E grade and a sports grade. I think this probably applies for anything from E4/5 upwards, certainly for E7/8 upwards.
Yes it is also helpful to have a narrative about the route, but number grades serve a useful function too.
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OK, well I'm calling it E12 7a from the comfort of my armchair. Somebody who has tried or done it would need to make the call whether its E12 7b or not.
To me, it needs that English tech grade to make any sense at all. Headhunter E5 in Pembroke is a shit grade, E5 6a so much better.
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I agree that the tech grade can be quite wide beyond 6c but that doesn't necessarily mean we should bin it completely. What are we saying, is there to be a cessation of all tech grades being given above 6c from 2024 onwards?
What about routes such as Trauma E8 7a in the pass, The Quarryman E8 7a, The Keswickian E8 7a, New Statesman E8 7a, Parthian Shot E10 7a, Mission Impossible E9 7a? I would argue that there is nothing wrong with the 7a grade given for these routes. Why mess with tradition and what is the alternative?
I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes. Without that the E grade has nothing to base it on, nothing that has been tried and tested over the last 50 years at any rate.
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I think an adjectival E grade tells you more than just chucking an R on the end of a sports grade, and as such is worth preserving.
The idea of having a grade that contains more information seems desirable to a lot of people but why? Just write a sentence or two in the description and that would tell you more than a couple of numbers and letters ever can. Modern databases aren't limited by space like a physical book, but a description wouldn't be necessary on every route anyway.
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How descriptive can you get though? "Harder moves than xx, yy and zz, but safer than aa"
Just because it's a blunt instrument doesn't mean it's a useless instrument.
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I agree that the tech grade can be quite wide beyond 6c but that doesn't necessarily mean we should bin it completely. What are we saying, is there to be a cessation of all tech grades being given above 6c from 2024 onwards?
What about routes such as Trauma E8 7a in the pass, The Quarryman E8 7a, The Keswickian E8 7a, New Statesman E8 7a, Parthian Shot E10 7a, Mission Impossible E9 7a? I would argue that there is nothing wrong with the 7a grade given for these routes. Why mess with tradition and what is the alternative?
I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes. Without that the E grade has nothing to base it on, nothing that has been tried and tested over the last 50 years at any rate.
Getting quite UKC HERE BUT....
I don't think many people have an issue with the concept of having second grade to add info. It does, in general, work well. It's just that the tech grades themselves are bonkers above 6b. For it to continue to work properly above 6b, it really should have much finer gradation. Even full V grade spacings would work. 6b (imo) needs 2 further spacings. 6c could probably do with 3 (I've only done a pair of trad routes with UK 6c grades attached, so can't comment too much) and then 7a...?
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The tech grades above 6c are definitely wide but I don't think they are inherantly mad per se. Interesting suggestion for finer gradations to be given - this would definitley be a good idea if it caught on.
When I started climbing in the mid 90's English 7a was around the Font 7b+ and above mark. So West Side Story is an English 7a move (i.e. E4 7a). Also, Blind Date is also 7b+ (E4 7a as a trad route to the top of the crag). Both are very well protected or within bouldering height so low E grades. For a more dangerous example, Gaia used to be E8 7a (E8 6c now in current guidebook I think).
Even if the finer gradations of the Tech grade didn't catch on, there is value in stating whether the crux move is Font 7b+ or harder (i.e. 6c or 7a English tech). You can then work out whether the route is well protected or runout/ worse and calibrate the E grade accordingly.
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Getting quite UKC HERE BUT....
Going full UKC/reddit by giving my opinions on something I have no knowledge of whatsoever...
Knowing the difficulty of the crux strikes me as usueful info for easy routes. Almost no route graded Fr 5c is sustained. They are often defined by their crux, as they are low angle, full of big footholds etc. I know pretty much exactly how hard a "5c crux" is. Or a "6a crux".
Knowing the difficulty of the crux strikes me as pretty worthless info for hard routes = sustained routes. Most routes graded 8a are sustained. They are rarely defined by their crux. "8a crux" makes no sense. A powerendurance 8a has maybe no sequence harder than FB 6C between bolts. A endurance 8a might not have anything harder than FB 6A. Neither info is relevant for an onsight attempt. Obviously anyone who hopes to onsight an endurance 8a would flash 6C most of the time. It is a difference without meaning.
(Yeah, yeah, if the route is a boulder problem to easy climbing the tech grade would be Fb 7B+ or something stupid like this and this might give me the info that I would never onsight this in a million years. But we're not exactly talking about classics here.)
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routes graded 8a are sustained. They are rarely defined by their crux. "8a crux" makes no sense.
Are they? This is a massive generalisation that I don't think holds true at all. /UKC
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I can think of plenty of UK sustained routes that I’ve climbed where they was still a distinct cruxy bit or some section somewhat harder than others. Plenty of 8as around the south coast absolutely have boulder sections, lots of useful info from the font grade. Writing them off as ‘not exactly classics’ just seems like a matter of taste. People seem happy to keep on climbing them.
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How descriptive can you get though? "Harder moves than xx, yy and zz, but safer than aa"
Just because it's a blunt instrument doesn't mean it's a useless instrument.
At these sort of grades (assuming we’re still talking about Bon Voyage or have we forked again?!) it is! It’s become a contextless dot on the graph.
I’ve been inured in trad grades for decades and ‘runout 9a’ tells me a lot more about the route than E12 does. All that has happened is someone has decided that ‘runout 9a’ equates to some arbitrary figure and when told that figure everyone else just says ‘what does that mean?’ and the only answer to that that means anything is ‘run out 9a’!
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Sorry, should have quoted Liam, it's in response to his general grade comment, not BV specifically.
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UK trad climbing community: years of careful deliberation and argument over the application of the E-grade system and English Tech Grade, and the subtle interrelation between the two
Adam Ondra: "E12 I guess lmao"
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Getting quite UKC HERE BUT....
Going full UKC/reddit by giving my opinions on something I have no knowledge of whatsoever...
Still too informed and inoffensive to qualify for reddit
(Yeah, yeah, if the route is a boulder problem to easy climbing the tech grade would be Fb 7B+ or something stupid like this and this might give me the info that I would never onsight this in a million years. But we're not exactly talking about classics here.)
Welcome to the peak district
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Yeah, I'm not sure jwi's view here is all that applicable to UK sport. It probably does apply to Rodellar though!
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Something like Cider Soak I’m much more interested to hear it in terms of three font grades stacked on top of each other than an English grade.
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English tech grades have not been used for sport climbs since around 1990 (when they appeared in the Yorkshire Limestone Rockfax i.e. Zoolook 8a or E7 6c). I don't think anyone is advocating a revival of that.
The use of English tech grades for British trad climbs is what is of interest to me at least. (E.g. The Big Issue E9 6c.) I personally couldn't give a monkeys about whether a European or US trad climb gets an E grade - I don't see the need for any kind of conversion TBH. BV can happily get 9aR in my book.
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7a tech grade means anything from your crux being a one move 7A (WSS does not even remotely have a 7B+ move on it) to your crux being a sustained 8B. I for one find it very informative to know that the crux section of the route I'm getting on is in the 7A-8B range, and anyone who says otherwise is simply talking down Great Britain.
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Lol!!
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"Breaking a pitch into individual moves and rating the pitch by the hardest move is nonsense."
Jim Bridwell (The Innocent, The Ignorant And The Insecure. Ascent 1973)
It is time to thank the UK tech. grade for decades of loyal service and send it off to retirement. It works well for move-rest-move-rest climbing but the activity has changed and it is now obsolete. As a guide to physical difficulty, a French grade is clearly more informative for routes above about E3/ UK6a and is different but just as useful on easier ones. Most people will benefit from changing over especially those making the transition from sport and indoors, who are the future of climbing.
As you probably know, the UK technical grade was originally the Fontainebleau bouldering grade, first used on southern sandstone then disseminated throughout the UK in the 1960s. Font 4 is about UK 4b, Font 5+ about 5c and so on. This worked well when most routes had a distinct technical crux, how hard this was more-or-less defined the overall physical difficulty of a pitch. It is much less helpful once you progress beyond move-rest-move-rest climbing. UK 5b can be anything from Fr 5 (Great Slab, Frogatt) to Fr 6b+ (Right Eliminate), a UK 6c anything from Fr 7b (Many retro-bolted E5s) to Fr 8a (Requiem, Dumbarton).
Every other grading system used for trad. routes - UIAA, French, US ‘Yosemite’, Australian - estimate cumulative physical difficulty for the whole pitch. There is nothing exceptional about UK trad. climbing that means we cannot do the same. No other grading system attempts to evaluate a single move (What is a single move? One hand movement? ‘A short passage of climbing’??). Even bouldering grades are a cumulative difficulty estimate. Yosemite grades originally estimated the hardest single move, like the UK tech. grade, but as routes got more sustained in the 1970s it evolved into a cumulative difficulty grade. In the early 80s some British climbers proposed a similar transition: Ron Fawcett originally graded Strawberries 7a to capture the sustained nature of the climbing despite it having no individual move harder than UK 6b. Unfortunately this did not catch on.
The main beneficiaries of such a change will be people transitioning from indoor or sport. If we are interested in encouraging a healthy proportion of climbers to place wires as well as clipping bolts (and, by implication, better resisting calls to bolt everything) we should minimise unnecessary barriers to trying trad. A familiar grade might help. Switching to French grades is in the long-term best interests of UK trad. climbing. Some CC/Wired guides are now including French grades for harder trad. routes. I see no reason why this shouldn't be extended to all. The group most likely to perceive a disadvantage are older VS to ~E3 climbers. They are sometimes resistant to change and often opinionated in their resistance! They will grumble but, as they nearly all sport climb too, they will manage perfectly well with French grades.
The main disadvantage of French over UK tech. grades is differentiating between sustained and bouldery routes, especially in middle grades: An E1 Fr 6a+ could be UK 5b or 5c. This is a valid point but one extra word in the description (“cruxy”, “sustained”), or a topo symbol would make this clear.
I'd keep the adjectival grade (Easy-E12) for trad. climbing as most people find it useful at onsightable grades. I think it works because it includes more than just a danger estimate (R,X) but also factors important for onsighting like obviousness of the sequence, difficulty placing gear, exposure, intimidation, and the cumulative effect of multiple pitches. Right Wall may be only Fr 6c and is not very badly protected but it is intimidating, hard to read, and the gear is not obvious. All this says E5 Fr6c, a more useful grade than 6c R which could also be applied to some E3s. I think it is more useful than the current E5 (UK)6a which is also given to routes like London Wall which much physically harder (7a+s in disguise).
There is also the ‘if it ain't broke’ argument. The UK tech. grade works well for Severe to ~E3 climbers - they designed it - and few embrace change when there is no perceived need. They may not feel this change helps them but they are not going to be significantly disadvantaged by it. Even if you don’t like this change, you’ll not be worse off and everyone else will be better off. Think of it as making a personal small sacrifice towards the healthy future of UK trad. climbing!
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Well, I'm convinced. You should turn that into an article for ukc Duncan. *runs and hides from the comments section*
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Duncan's is the correct answer and nothing more now needs to be said about the subject. All that remains is to implement the change and have all boomers - apart from Duncan! - put under house-arrest.
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Well, I respectfully disagree ;D
I agree with the utility of the french grade for trad routes and all of Duncan's sentiments. What I don't think works is the use of E grades on their own with just a French grade and no English tech grade. If we're gunna make such changes, we should bin not only the English tech grade but also the whole E grade system entirely.
I don't think the E grade on its own has any more utility than an R or X rating.
Good luck trying to convince UKC to bin off the tech grades in their news reports - they keep coming
(BTW, I am not a boomer :lol:
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The correct answer is clearly E grade with French grade for sustained routes and E grade with font grade for bouldery ones.
This would have the neat side effect of stopping people mixing up 6a and 6A so bloody often.
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
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[crux-grades] works well for move-rest-move-rest climbing but the activity has changed and it is now obsolete. As a guide to physical difficulty, a French grade is clearly more informative for routes above about E3/ UK6a and is different but just as useful on easier ones.
This was the point I was trying to make. If you look in old French topos, it is clear that many climbers of the 60s and 70s thought in crux-grades as topos are often denoted with a grade scribbled at the crux of the pitch. The same in topos from Scandinavia from before people could climb 7a and the modern sport of free climbing was invented.
Crux-grade and total difficulty of a pitch are highly related up to about Scand 6/6+ or French 6b. The harder the routes the more decoupled the difficulty of the hardest part and the grade is.
If you tell me that a route in France has a crux of Fb 5A I can tell you that the route is no easier than 5+ and no harder than 6a. If you tell med that the crux is Fb 5B I know it is 6a to 6b. If you tell me that a route has a crux of Fb 6A, I know that the route is somewhere between 6b+ and 7c+
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I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes.
But what useful information is being conveyed by doing so? That the route has a crux sequence around Font 7B or harder - so somewhere in an approximately ten grade range? It's not clear to me who is supposed to find that helpful.
(I have never climbed harder than UK tech 6b and never will, so take my opinion for what it's worth)
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
It's straightforward, you just have to shout when saying "7A"
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
They were struggling with the difference between a route and a boulder?
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I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes.
But what useful information is being conveyed by doing so? That the route has a crux sequence around Font 7B or harder - so somewhere in an approximately ten grade range? It's not clear to me who is supposed to find that helpful.
I think its quite helpful to know if a crux is Font 7B or harder. Anything of Font 7A+ and below would equate to 6c which would be onsightable for many leader operating at the E7 and above level. English 7b would be warranted for exceptionally difficult cruxes. E.g. Smoked Salmon E8 7b at Bamford, The Angel's Share E8 7b (original grades). These are rare beasts admittedly but do crop up on gritstone in particular for very bouldery sequences.
Anyway, the UK tech grade is carrying on in UKC databases and Rockfax going forwards I understand so its not as if we are adding it to routes, its there to stay! By all means add in French and Font grades as well, the more the merrier!
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I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes.
But what useful information is being conveyed by doing so? That the route has a crux sequence around Font 7B or harder - so somewhere in an approximately ten grade range? It's not clear to me who is supposed to find that helpful.
I think its quite helpful to know if a crux is Font 7B or harder. Anything of Font 7A+ and below would equate to 6c which would be onsightable for many leader operating at the E7 and above level. English 7b would be warranted for exceptionally difficult cruxes. E.g. Smoked Salmon E8 7b at Bamford, The Angel's Share E8 7b (original grades). These are rare beasts admittedly but do crop up on gritstone in particular for very bouldery sequences.
Anyway, the UK tech grade is carrying on in UKC databases and Rockfax going forwards I understand so its not as if we are adding it to routes, its there to stay! By all means add in French and Font grades as well, the more the merrier!
I have absolutely no idea what a tech 7b grade is supposed to denote. How hard did they think smoked salmon was?! By Barrows method that would assume they thought the crux move was in the font 8B+ region?!
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
They were struggling with the difference between a route and a boulder?
Yup. One said he could do 7a routes but not 7A graded boulders he was struggling with. Though the grading system was the same for both.
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I have absolutely no idea what a tech 7b grade is supposed to denote.
Nothing wrong with a bit of mystery!
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I have absolutely no idea what a tech 7b grade is supposed to denote. How hard did they think smoked salmon was?! By Barrows method that would assume they thought the crux move was in the font 8B+ region?!
Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting an 8B move was "tech 7a", just that "tech 7a" could be anything from maybe one 7A move (=7A boulder) through to a dozen or so 7B moves in a row with hard transitions (= 8B?) and therefore isn't very useful, to say the least.
Anything of Font 7A+ and below would equate to 6c
Except you said WSS and Blind Date are 7a... neither of which have a 7B move on (or even close). It's almost as if the whole concept of the tech grade is a bit farcical since some use it to refer to the hardest move and others the hardest section (plus it's too wide to be useful).
But enough of this. Make Uselessly Wide Grades Great Again! Preferably in Latin - very British.
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Except you said WSS and Blind Date are 7a... neither of which have a 7B move on (or even close).
WSS is 7B+ to me at least. I find it desparate as do many people of average height. A lot of folk are calling it Font 7C. Its been E4 7a in the routes guidbook for many years.
Re Blind Date, an old Al Rouse route from the 80's originally done with a 'splits' stance off an old long- deparated boulder has been Font 7B+ ever since the Peak Bouldering 2005 guidebook and has been E4 7a in the routes guide for many years.
Again, for those of average height, I would say not many would dispute the 7B+ grade. FWIW, 21 votes on UKC for 7B+!
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I think Alex is talking about single move difficulty rather than the whole grade and saying the tech grade doesn't reflect that no? I don't do trad but that's what I was taking from his reply?
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So we have routes with short cruxes, and we have routes with sustained climbing.
And we have grading systems which deal well with short cruxes (font grade), and we have grading systems which deal well with sustained climbing (sport grade).
So why oh why do insist on a grading system (UK tech grade) that doesn't describe either style of climbing well? It's so British (and crap)!
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Except you said WSS and Blind Date are 7a... neither of which have a 7B move on (or even close).
WSS is 7B+ to me at least. I find it desparate as do many people of average height. A lot of folk are calling it Font 7C. Its been E4 7a in the routes guidbook for many years.
Re Blind Date, an old Al Rouse route from the 80's originally done with a 'splits' stance off an old long- deparated boulder has been Font 7B+ ever since the Peak Bouldering 2005 guidebook and has been E4 7a in the routes guide for many years.
Again, for those of average height, I would say not many would dispute the 7B+ grade. FWIW, 21 votes on UKC for 7B+!
I don't think thats at issue; I agree WSS is 7B+, but that doesn't mean theres a single move on it thats font 7B, which is what a tech grade of 7a implies.
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I see what you're saying. I think we need to take 'single move' with a pinch of salt here. Blind Date is 5 hand moves in total to the end of the difficulties. I have no issue with calling that English 7a. I think its splitting hairs to say that we need to break it down further into the grade of each hand move. I take a pragmatic approach here to the 'single move' aspect. Basically, I would use the Font system in a similar way to the English tech for short problems of 5 moves or below .
Similarly with WSS, that would be about 5 hard hand moves alll adding up to 7a.
If we were talking about 10 moves then we're into the 'sustained nature of multiple moves e.g. Powerband. That would be a different kettle of fish....
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The correct answer is clearly E grade with French grade for sustained routes and E grade with font grade for bouldery ones.
This would have the neat side effect of stopping people mixing up 6a and 6A so bloody often.
This is the only rational answer.
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I see what you're saying. I think we need to take 'single move' with a pinch of salt here. Blind Date is 5 hand moves in total to the end of the difficulties. I have no issue with calling that English 7a. I think its splitting hairs to say that we need to break it down further into the grade of each hand move. I take a pragmatic approach here to the 'single move' aspect. Basically, I would use the Font system in a similar way to the English tech for short problems of 5 moves or below .
Similarly with WSS, that would be about 5 hard hand moves alll adding up to 7a.
If we were talking about 10 moves then we're into the 'sustained nature of multiple moves e.g. Powerband. That would be a different kettle of fish....
I think this is the crux (lol) of it. I don't agree with using the tech grade for grading short hard sequences. as Pete has said that is literally what the font grade is good for. that is borne out by the fact that nobody knows WSS as e4 7a, they know it as font 7B+. It seems very retrograde in that context to continue using the tech grade where it starts to make no sense, ie from 6c upwards. Below that it works fine.
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I think this is the crux (lol) of it. I don't agree with using the tech grade for grading short hard sequences. as Pete has said that is literally what the font grade is good for. that is borne out by the fact that nobody knows WSS as e4 7a, they know it as font 7B+. It seems very retrograde in that context to continue using the tech grade where it starts to make no sense, ie from 6c upwards. Below that it works fine.
I can remember trying WSS in 2000 when it was B9 or 7a in the Al Williams Peak bouldering guide before I even knew what Font 7B+ meant. I certainly understood the difficulty of the problem from 7a. Its always been applied in a 'holistic' sense to short series of hand moves. I think its a mistake to try to apply it too literally. I don't see the need to slavishly insist on the tech grade being only 1 hand move. Font grades being for short sequences of moves doesn't mean English tech grades can't be too (to a certain limited extent).
I don't think we can say that the whole English tech grade was ever meant for one hand move! What about pitches at Gogarth, surely a few strung together was what was meant by 'the hardest move'? I am a pragmatist, not a purist 8)
The English tech grade may be old and wide but I don't accept that it makes no sense. Worked fine for me!
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The hard bit of Bon Voyage is a traverse, so clearly a Fontainebleau traverse grade would be the best way to describe the difficulty.
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
Which was exactly my impeccable and undeniable logic (amongst other reasons) which V grades were objectively superior. I spent about 20 minutes trying to find a blogpost a wrote on it but couldn't. I did find one where the entire first paragraph was calling every possible variety of boulderer a cunt, so that's something.
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I think this is the crux (lol) of it. I don't agree with using the tech grade for grading short hard sequences. as Pete has said that is literally what the font grade is good for. that is borne out by the fact that nobody knows WSS as e4 7a, they know it as font 7B+. It seems very retrograde in that context to continue using the tech grade where it starts to make no sense, ie from 6c upwards. Below that it works fine.
I can remember trying WSS in 2000 when it was B9 or 7a in the Al Williams Peak bouldering guide before I even knew what Font 7B+ meant. I certainly understood the difficulty of the problem from 7a. Its always been applied in a 'holistic' sense to short series of hand moves. I think its a mistake to try to apply it too literally. I don't see the need to slavishly insist on the tech grade being only 1 hand move. Font grades being for short sequences of moves doesn't mean English tech grades can't be too (to a certain limited extent).
I don't think we can say that the whole English tech grade was ever meant for one hand move! What about pitches at Gogarth, surely a few strung together was what was meant by 'the hardest move'? I am a pragmatist, not a purist 8)
The English tech grade may be old and wide but I don't accept that it makes no sense. Worked fine for me!
I'm not a trad climber so maybe just my ignorance here but if English tech grades are based on the hardest sequence of moves and not the hardest single move then how come a 7C and 8B boulder can both get the same tech grade, since such a huge grade discrepcancy guarantees the crux sequence on the latter is much harder?
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how come a 7C and 8B boulder can both get the same tech grade, since such a huge grade discrepcancy guarantees the crux sequence on the latter is much harder?
I think cos hard single moves compound very quickly into harder sequences. So to compare a one move 7a with a 5 move problem 7a.
Out of interest, what are the examples for 7C and 8B being the same technical grade?
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Angel's share (considered 7C above pads?) and Hubble (can't remember if it's considered 8B or 8B+) are both tech 7b then? Jobs a good'un.
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Angel's share (considered 7C above pads?) and Hubble (can't remember if it's considered 8B or 8B+) are both tech 7b then? Jobs a good'un.
Angel's Share crux is now given English 7a so can't be compared with Hubble's crux which is 7b. Next! ;D
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On the flip side I actually like uk tech grades for slate/slate style slabs and vertical things as i think there's more variation in whether or not a hard move fits your body and/or your brain, so distinguishing between a 7B and 7B+ slab for a hypothetical 'average' climber seems really unrealistic.
I worked out an infallible system for this:
6a = put a foot up, rockover
6b = as above but an intermediate foot move is required
6c = 3 foot moves for one hand move
7a = 4 foot moves per hand move
That gets all the historic tech grades right in twll mwr except for the top pitch of quarryman which doesn't clock in at 7a unless you're using font grades.
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Dan has shared with me his thoughts on the debate in the form of the following short piece:
Leibvoller Kamph (The Loving Struggle)
Karl Jaspers was a psychoanalyst and existential philosopher who thought a lot about the nature of being and knowing. He describes 3 main types of being in the world, the objective, the subjective and 'being itself. The first modes of being lend themselves to forms of empirical observation, where as 'being itself' lies beyond the boundaries of the empirical world but within the fullness of reality that Jaspers called 'The Encompassing' or 'Existence'. Jaspers believed these 3 modes of being existed in a painful union (marriage?) of needing each other to exist yet repelling each other at the same time.
The British (traditional) climbing grading system uses technical and adjectival grades in an attempt to describe the objective difficulty and encompassing nature of a route. The first ascentionist proposes a grade, which with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead. Take for example the route 'Elegy' on the lower tier of the Roaches, described by Ken Wilson as a real 'man-boy sorter' it's burly, technical, smeary and bold, weighing in at the lowly grade of E2 5c. You could say that the given grade is only a small almost insignificant part of the overall experience, you could also argue that the grade is a symbolic part of the 'encompassing' without which, understanding the full nature of the route would not be possible.
In an attempt to understand existence Jaspers describes how human beings bring concrete and practical understandings of the world (Dassein or everydayness) and the features of intellect and empirical understanding in the conscious mind (science?) together in a spirited attempt to gain a sense of coherence and universality in the world of being. He suggested that an object is not examined in isolation but through a tension between individual and group understanding and agreement which he refers to as the Leiboller Kamph or the 'Loving Struggle'.
In my understanding the grading of a British traditional rock climb is not a reductionistic process which attempts to speak purely to an empirical system, as if that were all reality offers. It is an individual and social effort, a communion of modes of being, the subjective, the objective and being itself, it is symbolic of what is not said or not able to be known in words, that being a greater encompassing knowledge, unreachable by science and empiricism and alluding to the 'implicate order' sought in the uneasy tension of the Loving Struggle.
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That's some E9 bullshit.
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That's some E9 bullshit.
E9 6c or E9 7a?
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with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead.
What happens if they disagree with the proposed grade?
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Was explaining the difference between 7A probs and 7a routes to some young guys who were struggling with the idea at the wall, can we change that too while we are at it? :)
This has been solved really hasn't it? One is V6 and the other is 5.11d 7a.
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"Breaking a pitch into individual moves and rating the pitch by the hardest move is nonsense."
Jim Bridwell (The Innocent, The Ignorant And The Insecure. Ascent 1973)
It is time to thank the UK tech. grade for decades of loyal service and send it off to retirement. It works well for move-rest-move-rest climbing but the activity has changed and it is now obsolete. As a guide to physical difficulty, a French grade is clearly more informative for routes above about E3/ UK6a and is different but just as useful on easier ones.
In agreement with your general point, I think it can also be true for some well protected but very sustained easier routes too. Swanage has classic E4 5cs, E3 5bs etc that are super sustained, burly and with unlimited idiot-proof protection (can place as many rock8s etc as you can carry). They would get the same sport grade as many E4 6b, E3 6a routes.
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with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead.
What happens if they disagree with the proposed grade?
I think we should allow a little poetic licence to Dan here, I think its meant as an artistic piece parodying the trend in recent years to gamify grading to the Nth degree with ever more complex rating systems. In the event of possible disagreement, I would imagine a quiet word to the relevant mod of UKC might do the trick.
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with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead.
What happens if they disagree with the proposed grade?
I guess that would be dissent rather than assent 😄
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with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead.
What happens if they disagree with the proposed grade?
I guess that would be dissent rather than assent 😄
My guess would be 'ascents'.
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Dan adds he thought it would be assumed that disagreement on the grade of something is eventually resolved in the interaction between the climbers repeating the route. That the grade ‘settles’ is implicit in what he wrote.
Dan goes on to express his disappointment that picking over spelling and grammar or calling what he wrote BS is the best the UKB intelligentsia can do?
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Seeing as Dan is banned from the forum, it seems pretty weird that he's now posting by proxy.
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It’s like when Gerry Adam’s was voiced by actors on BBC news because the IRA were banned from speaking on it.
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I'm imagining Dan as a gloopy ball of brain matter floating in one of those big Victorian-era glass jars, sitting on a shelf in Kingy's study (Kingy has as study in my imagination, where he plans his next sport project in impeccable detail).
Ask him/it if the lunar lander will be successful today please Kingy :ang:
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Do you remember the Roald Dahl short story called William and Mary? Is that where you got that thought from?
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Dan goes on to express his disappointment that picking over spelling and grammar or calling what he wrote BS is the best the UKB intelligentsia can do?
Did he actually expect a different outcome?
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Do you remember the Roald Dahl short story called William and Mary? Is that where you got that thought from?
No I'd never heard of that one. Have just looked it up. My Roald Dahl reads growing up were Danny.., BFG, Giant Peach, obvs Chocolate Factory, Mr Fox.
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Read Tales of the Unexpected for an insight into his brilliant twisted mind...
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with time, and a growing number of repeat assents will settle to a position which allows would be climbers some indication of the challenge ahead.
What happens if they disagree with the proposed grade?
I guess that would be dissent rather than assent 😄
At least someone got it!
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In my understanding the grading of a British traditional rock climb is not a reductionistic process which attempts to speak purely to an empirical system, as if that were all reality offers. It is an individual and social effort, a communion of modes of being, the subjective, the objective and being itself, it is symbolic of what is not said or not able to be known in words, that being a greater encompassing knowledge, unreachable by science and empiricism and alluding to the 'implicate order' sought in the uneasy tension of the Loving Struggle.[/i]
Yossarian, that’s your next LNDN CLMBR opinion piece sorted.