UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: account_inactive on July 08, 2008, 07:49:26 pm
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So if you had the space to put in an awesome board and training facility what would you go for?
I would probably put in a 50 degree board (as long and as wide as possible)
Campus/finger/Systems board
Rings
Weight bench
I'd not sure if it would be worth putting in a 30 degree board or trying to get all fancy with changes of angles............what do you beasts think?
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Very interesting topic Dylan... I'm interested to hear what people have to say...
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Something like the board at Broughton...but more of it and a bit higher.
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The Climbing Works.
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An exact replica of Keith's board.
No scratch that.
An exact replica of Keith's naked torso, tilted at 50 degrees. Problems finish by kissing his forehead.
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The Climbing Works.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
An exact replica of Keith's board.
No scratch that.
An exact replica of Keith's naked torso, tilted at 50 degrees. Problems finish by kissing his forehead.
Well, only a select few have scaled that surface, and I'm upset to say you're not one of them! Why didn't we ever physicalise our love?
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Not sure about all the funky angles either.... Just look at BoulderUK. I am not sure you get all that beastly strong you just develop good technique and good at doing comp style problems. Do people agree?
I think as big a 50 board as you can fit in. rings, campus, weights/bench, yes yes yes....
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So if you had the space to put in an awesome board and training facility what would you go for?
I would probably put in a 50 degree board (as long and as wide as possible)
Campus/finger/Systems board
Rings
Weight bench
I'd not sure if it would be worth putting in a 30 degree board or trying to get all fancy with changes of angles............what do you beasts think?
You know what i'm going to say here:
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/n61113380_32406600_2911.jpg)
50' - With the right combo of holds you can train raw power better than any other way I've personally found.
30' - General climbing at this angle seems to translate better to actual gains, i.e. you can put the above into practice
15' Crag X - Single handedly the best way I've ever found to improve finger and contact strength.
A lot of the above depends on hold selection.
Weights Bench that goes from fully inclined to decline.
Rings with pulley
Campus Board
Bar with pulley
Fingerboard
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The Climbing Works.
I really do hope that was a joke. Did anyone notice a marked improvement this winter after thrutch humping volumes? I get disappointed every time I go down the place (mainly on spotting duty these days), it could have been the ULTIMATE venue...
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Yes, I went there two or three times this winter and have noticed a considerable improvement in my humping technique. I can now no longer walk past a skip without quickly nipping up its arete ;)
I suppose it depends what you're using it for, The Works is a good venue for me because it suites the climbing I do, I never really climb 50' walls so these are less useful to me.
My ideal wall would be a big boulder in my garden. I'd have a big umbrella over it, so I could let it get wet on days I didn't want to climb it. It'd have various holds and cracks on it and some big dynoes. It'd have a really good problem up the back of it, which would always have a human turd with toilet paper stuck in it at the bottom. I wouldn't let anyone else climb there but I'd get the rumour machine going that there was a fb8c+ traverse on it. It would be made of five different rock types and have a plaque to my grandad on it.
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I suppose it depends what you're using it for, The Works is a good venue for me because it suites the climbing I do, I never really climb 50' walls so these are less useful to me.
You don't need to be climbing 50' problems outdoors to gain from a board at that angle
I knew exactly what you were going to say Paul :) But if you had the chance to build the school again would you do it exactly the same? I'm not denying that it's the best training facility out there but could it not be improved on?
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The Climbing Works.
I really do hope that was a joke. Did anyone notice a marked improvement this winter after thrutch humping volumes? I get disappointed every time I go down the place (mainly on spotting duty these days), it could have been the ULTIMATE venue...
I think that we would be looking for different things from our boards Paul. You strike me as an incredibly focused person who takes a scientific approach to improving their climbing by creating specific goals, strategising training and diet regimes to realise these goals, assessing and adjusting these regime to realise further specific goals. You obviously have the drive to stick to these training patterns and it has served you well (8b+ or whatever it is). I absolutely respect your approach to training and climbing. However...
...I'm more of a dick about a bit and have a laugh person. A huge flat 50 would bore me so I wouldn't use it whereas the works would have me running round like a kid at christmas. I'm envious of your ability to focus, but I do enjoy pratting about.
So yes it was a serious suggestion as the ultimate training facility for me.
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What about the kickboard on the 50 degree Paul? Would you reduce the size of it or keep it as is?
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The Climbing Works.
I really do hope that was a joke. Did anyone notice a marked improvement this winter after thrutch humping volumes? I get disappointed every time I go down the place (mainly on spotting duty these days), it could have been the ULTIMATE venue...
I think that we would be looking for different things from our boards Paul. You strike me as an incredibly focused person who takes a scientific approach to improving their climbing by creating specific goals, strategising training and diet regimes to realise these goals, assessing and adjusting these regime to realise further specific goals. You obviously have the drive to stick to these training patterns and it has served you well (8b+ or whatever it is). I absolutely respect your approach to training and climbing. However...
...I'm more of a dick about a bit and have a laugh person. A huge flat 50 would bore me so I wouldn't use it whereas the works would have me running round like a kid at christmas. I'm envious of your ability to focus, but I do enjoy pratting about.
So yes it was a serious suggestion as the ultimate training facility for me.
I mean absolutely no offence to Nik, because you are completely correct in your assesment of the fact that different people put in/get out different things from climbing. However, the word training necessitates a focused approach, otherwise you aren't training, you're "pratting about". Please understand that I am not making ANY sort of judgement about which has greater worth, as I think that both are equally useless. ;)
I think that an ultimate training venue, by definition, would allow people to MAXIMISE their return on their allotted input to training for climbing. Any bouldering wall can set some fun problems and you can go there to have fun and climb, but this is not training. There is a big difference, and I can see that you also see that. This is the difference between the works and the school. This is why there is a growing number of people who would rather use a small dusty room than a huge, varied, bouldering wall.
I also don't mean to disrespect anyone else on UKB or anyone else for that matter by saying that the majority of climbers do not train. I use the word "train" as I see it used in other professional sports. You might disagree with that use of the word, but I think this is relevant to Dylan's original question. He wants to have a training venue, where he can hone his skills at rock climbing. He wants to be able to maximise his inputs to get the greatest possible gains and outputs. I am not starting a debate on what the best training for climbing is, but a clue would lie in the assessment of how the top climbers (I am only referring to boulderers in this context) got to where they are. Daniel Woods, Tyler Landman, Killian Fishburger, John Gaskins, etc. My point, sorry for the delay, is that a training board should be a training board. It should not have to be fun, or interesting, or quirky, or colourful, it should only serve one purpose, to improve your climbing specific skill set in the most efficient way.
Dylan, regarding a kickboard. A kickboard should be kept smaller in my opinion, it's only utility is in enabling the use of smaller holds on the bottom of the board (by having better footholds on vertical wall) and to make sit starts a little easier. I think a 12" kickboard is enough although given enough room an 18" one would be good too. It all depends on the length of the board I guess.
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i don't think you can really equate climbing training at present to training for top-level at other sports - its nowhere near advanced. However I would guess that taking climbing training to the equivalent of other sports would be seriously tedious and boring and you'd have to basically mortgage all your climbing enjoyment over a period of years to maybe do just one single problem at your theoretical maximum.
the school board is great but could be improved - for a start if you were really serious you'd have the board then have an exact mirror-image of it to prevent you subconciously favouring one half of your body. you'd also have a system board, maybe 45 degrees. the 35degree board idealy would be about twice as wide.
also, has anyone actually got out a protractor and spirit level and measured the angle of the school board recently? it feels a lot steeper than my old 45 cellar board was, and given the fact its held up by a slender strand of bootlace I would wager than it's probably sagged over the years and might actually be a lot steeper now.
P.S. this winter i found the "training board" at the works to be quite good and enjoyable, though still limited ultimatley.
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He wants to have a training board, where he can hone his skills at climbing
Bad choice of words here, to me this is in direct contradiction of the rest of your post. A training board (certainly at 50 degrees) primarily increases your strength for climbing. I have seen precious little evidence that it increases anyone's skills at climbing.
I'd agree with Dave that a mirror board with no ticks until both ticked must be part of a serious training set up.
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You are, of course, correct JB. I should have written "skill set" instead, as I did further along my post. Thanks for clarifying what I meant!
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Worth mentioning that if you do want to improve your skills at climbing, pratting about is almost certainly the best way. Anyone else onsighted E8 here? No? Just Nik?
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Nope, but I have onsighted 7c routes, which means my physical skill set should be equal to that of Niks, but my "mental skill set" is FAR, FAR, FAR below and I don't think I know of any indoor wall where you can train to improve those skills!
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Bad choice of words here, to me this is in direct contradiction of the rest of your post. A training board (certainly at 50 degrees) primarily increases your strength for climbing. I have seen precious little evidence that it increases anyone's skills at climbing.
It will obviously transfer to the skills on a 50 degree wall outside with similar holds
A symetrical board like the Varian/Ned variety sounds like a good idea
Training for technique is a waste of time indoors IMO unless you want to get good at comps. I have the Peak on my backdoor so I climb outside as much as possible.
As Uncle pointed out a board will give you maximum strength returns for the amount of time and effort invested
The Works/Foundry have great walls that I would climb at to try other peoples problems and of course to socialise
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Uncle I agree with everything you said. I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is that training in its purest form isn't for me, so constructing what would objectively be the "best" facility would be wasted on me. However I would still see gains in my climbing if I had the climbing works in my (fucking enormous) theoretical cellar. Yes I could have greater potential gains from having the school down there instead, but as I'd rarely use it and certainly not in any structured way the gains would remain potential only. So for me the works is the better option. I suspect I'm not the person Dylan was directing the question at. :)
I also fully accept your point that I don't train. Perhaps I practice rather than train and the works is the ultimate practice wall?
However anybody claiming the works is just volume humping is presenting a very skewed (and dare I say innacurate) view. OK the system board bit might not be as steep or large as some people want but the place does offer a huge area of climbing, and a huge variety of climbing styles. Including volume humping, but also slabs, roofs, crimps, slopers, walls etc etc etc.
That last paragraph isn't directed at you particularly Uncle, just a general comment.
P.S. No offence taken at all, I'm very happy to be known as someone who largely dicks about and hasn't the faintest idea about training.
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An exact replica of Keith's naked torso, tilted at 50 degrees. Problems finish by kissing his forehead.
I'm scared by what the starting holds might be.
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Surely you guys are missing the point? Ideal board would be pretty good for training on for a couple of hours whilst listening to banging tunes, nice sofas to recline on, beer fridge / wine cooler for afters, a wine rack and one of those old fashioned ash trays with the spinny top to cover up the evidence. And maybe a little portable mirror. 8)
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strength for climbing ... skills at climbing. ...
Dammit, I was going to reply after reading Unc's post and suggest that Johnny Brown would now be summoned into this thread for exactly that reason....ah, you snooze you lose...
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However anybody claiming the works is just volume humping is presenting a very skewed (and dare I say innacurate) view. OK the system board bit might not be as steep or large as some people want but the place does offer a huge area of climbing, and a huge variety of climbing styles. Including volume humping, but also slabs, roofs, crimps, slopers, walls etc etc etc.
Ok so its got more than just volumes but its severely lacking in a lot of areas anyone who denies this is blinkered. I just typed a whole list of things but decided that the thread probably shouldn't go down that route.
Nik - You might have been very surprised at just how good some of the problems were on that board and i'm (hopefully) not as serious as you think.
Dylan - I think Uncle answered your question for me, if the kickboard wasn't that high then some of the smaller holds at the bottom of the board would be defunct.
Preferably i'd move it away from the wall and plaster the moonboard in those big pusher slap tiles...Red one ahem? :spank: I'd also probably try to avoid resting notched beams on glued-on cornice's.
JB - We always have this discussion. It translates well to Limestone and sport.
Dave - Yes I measured it recently and its pretty accurate considering its age and the lack of support at the left hand top corner.
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It should not have to be fun, or interesting, or quirky, or colourful, it should only serve one purpose, to improve your climbing specific skill set in the most efficient way.
Maybe is shouldn't have to be, but in reality for most people it's a crucial factor in a boards success i.e how much training benefit the user gets. Motivation to use a board can't be discounted as an irrelavance. Motivation is likely to be higher for a board which is a pleasure to use. Motivation for some people is improved by using the board as part of a group, this is contingent on people enjoying the board enough to return regularly. I'd argue that the primary reason that most peoples boards are super steep is because that's what people find most fun (plus it's good for peer group kudos/showing off), I don't believe this is anything like the most efficient angle for the majority of climbing outside, here or in Font. Seems to me like people train super steep (for the reasons mentioned above) then have to travel far affield to find things suitably steep and 'basic' to apply them on.
I do like the ned/dan symetry board. It's a strong concept and it climbs well. I also used to really enjoy the 50 degree board in the school although I always thought the other boards would be more use to my climbing.
My perfect board at the moment would be something with a floor which followed the line of the board so I could climb longish (15-20 move) up problems and never be far from the mat. I have climbed on a board like this (but maybe only 10-12 moves long) at a wall in Sydney. This would be great for power endurance routes/probs.
Things like the skips in the Works could be amazing if more time was spent on the prob setting (not viable at a comercial wall i'm sure). Problems set with lots of possible holds but no obvious easy way (which is often how real climbing is)would train body and brain. The only reason training boards are no good for training technique is that the setting is too formulaic. There is no inhsurmountable difference between indoors and out, they are both just surfaces to climb on. Indoor probs could be made to be as technically demanding in an outdoor applicable way if designers/setters could be arsed to do so. I think the main difference with outdoor stuff is the truely random element.
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I take it from the way that you're both referring to The School in the past tense that the chances of it reopening are nil and that the search for a new home has so far been unsuccessful?
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You take it right
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Surely you guys are missing the point? Ideal board would be pretty good for training on for a couple of hours whilst listening to banging tunes, nice sofas to recline on, beer fridge / wine cooler for afters, a wine rack and one of those old fashioned ash trays with the spinny top to cover up the evidence. And maybe a little portable mirror. Cool
Sounds like tonight at mine apart from the sofas :) I thought we should get the fridge working for the first time, so I'll get some Belgian beer on the way home
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Include some waitresses and it sounds perfect.....
(http://i36.tinypic.com/291meqb.jpg)
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Paul I don't doubt some of the problems were very good, but interest would still wane for me with yet another 50 degree problem...
I seem to have insinuated that you (and Uncle, Dylan etc) are VERY serious people who must TRAIN, and I am some happy hairy bundle of FUN FUN FUN. Thats not what I meant. As I have said I am envious of your obvious ability to train. Maybe the failing is with me in not being able to put in the (what I see as) drudge work for the gains? I would be a fool to try and extrapolate the nature of someones personality simply from their ability to indulge in training.
Anyway this is all of topic, suffice it to say the school is/was obviously a pretty good approximation of a very good hardcore training venue, and the works isn't. They both however satisfy their respective design briefs very well.
As for the limitations of the Works, I guess I'm just not good enough for these to be apparent to me.
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I think you are similar to me Nik, I cannot train for anything as I find it boring. And I'm not so bothered about climbing a problem with a big number to overcome that. Especially as I'd then have to go to Switzerland to climb it.
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Especially as I'd then have to go to Switzerland to climb it.
Or to some limestone.
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Especially as I'd then have to go to Switzerland to climb it.
What a chore :boohoo:
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I think you are similar to me Nik, I cannot train for anything as I find it boring. And I'm not so bothered about climbing a problem with a big number to overcome that. Especially as I'd then have to go to Switzerland to climb it (like Fred Nicole, pioneer, hero, chose to do).
Ha ha. It is definitely unfortunate that the UK has a lack of hard problems, I agree with you. The boredom thing is also a salient point. Training is boring, but if it takes you to where you want to be, then I guess you put with the boredom. But if you don't want to be at the end of that path then there is certainly no point in boring yourself.
Bonjoy makes some excellent points too. Climbing is just a movement over a surface, and you could make indoor climbing just like outdoor climbing if you wanted to, but then why do this when you could go climbing outdoors? I guess for when it rains... The point about 50 degrees is true too. I think the school board is excellent but all the holds are jugs on the 50. It has many shortcomings, such as a lack of small feet, and was not a perfect board, but it wasn't intended to be a super duper training facility. It was built for modest needs and now it's become some hallowed place. I think 30/40 degree is a great angle for training too, because you can actually use really small/bad holds. Basically, I don't advocate the use of one angle only! Also, perhaps the pleasure/fun that comes from training is derived from the fact that you are progressing, not from the actual movement on the board. I don't know if you can even generalise because it's different for everyone.
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I don't like flat face climbing walls, they're too basic. I want some features to climb too because these are the lines I scope out when on a foreign mission, not arbitrary steepness. Good artificial aretes are in short supply.
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The point about 50 degrees is true too. I think the school board is excellent but all the holds are jugs on the 50. It has many shortcomings, such as a lack of small feet, and was not a perfect board, but it wasn't intended to be a super duper training facility.
Agreed, that's why the 30 and 15 complimented the 50 so well. I would have to say that the other boards especially the 15 were heavily neglected by quite a few people.
You're right about the foot holds as well, two sets of really bad screw-ons, one with edges one without would have made the board a little better.
I know you're being flipant but a lot of the holds on the board were far from jugs, basic Doyle for instance, the crux hold on that was small. I know what you're getting at thought, its unlikely that you can consistently pull on the smallest holds possible at this angle.
A symmetrical board is a nice idea allowing you to be truly balanced but I think as long as you climb problems set by various people rather than just your own problems you'll be forced to deal with any areas of weakness.
JB et al. - Are you sure that a little bit of training (maybe lockoff) wouldn't aid you in ticking something that you aspire to and hence be worth just a little bit of boredom.
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I think uncle has hit the nail on the head there really variation is what you need always climbing on the same angle day after day just leads to injury, plateaus boredom. I have a 40 degree board and though i think its a happy medium a 50 degree and 30 like paul b says right next to one another would be perfect (for me, remember training has to be specific to the person) i reckon the change in angle is enough to keep you interested long enough to make gains i dont mind chugging away though you've gotta look at where you want to be to stay motivated in the now.
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The boredom thing is also a salient point. Training is boring, but if it takes you to where you want to be, then I guess you put with the boredom.
training shouldn't/needn't be boring. I never find training boring - if i did i wouldn't do it. I climb for enjoyment and that goes for indoors on winter evenings or in a cellar just as much as it does for stuff on rock. Seriously, if people find training boring then i say don't do it, life is too short to spend your free time doing something that bores you.
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...except it's the path to Ticking Big Numbers... 8)
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I feel a few of us were in possession of something truly excellent for a period of time.
The Den is by far my favourite training surface to have moved over. It has its own mystique and charm which I believe is truly inexplicable. A genuine wonder of the training world.
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whats anyones opinion of the moon board?
would it make a good home facility?
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What's this whole aversion to doing "boring" things anyway?
Before enlightenment, the monk chops wood and carries water.
After enlightenment, the monk chops wood and carries water.
Monks are very good climbers, by the way. Climbers could learn a lot from monks. In my ideal training facility I'd have a bucket of water, a nice sharp axe, and a pile of volumes from the works.
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whats anyones opinion of the moon board?
would it make a good home facility?
I found a lot of the holds to be very tweaky.
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Used to a a 50 board but I prefer the new board at 40
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I've got the moon board set up i agree with paul b on the holds (twice in one thread bloody hell we're on a roll) get bleaustone holds the moon ones are not tendon friendly as my left ring finger is currently experiencing. Just started to carve out some wooden holds with a surform and a bit of sandpaper its surprisingly gratifying.
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In my ideal training facility I'd have a bucket of water, a nice sharp axe, and a pile of volumes from the works.
Is the axe to destroy the volumes?
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By Jove, I think he's got it! :lol:
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We built a big board in Clwt y Bont recently. Usual stuff: 30 degree, big 50 degree and a roof/hanging wall, plus all the other finger board stuff. Planning on a triple campus board (small edge, large edge, sloper rungs). We based it partly on The School blueprint, just bigger.
(http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/upload/gallery/Cyb%20build%2014th%20March%2008%202%20600.jpg)
http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/gallery1.asp?galleryid=36 (http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/gallery1.asp?galleryid=36)
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looks impressive. wish i had a spare barn to set a project wall up on! id prob be inclined to go down the small kickboard 50° board route tho
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We were discussing this while we were away although it was a perfect bouldering destination rather than board. Here is what we came up with...
Little monkey butlers in fez's smoking cigars, serving drinks and food!
Lots of scantly dressed females crushing hard problems!
A secret portal through a waterfall that took you into this place of wonder!
And of course thousands of perfect granite and sandstone boulders.
So for a board take the top 3 and replace boulders with the dream machine, the cragx board and throw in the Mill too! There you have it!
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Here's a pic of the Mill board in its latest state - still need loads more holds, but getting there. There's also 6 finger boards out of picture, plus bench press weights and a massive campus board being built at the moment. The sofa/rest area is very palatial now (thanks to Nodder, official board caretaker), although we probably need to work on some of Monkey Boy's tempting peripheral suggestions.
(http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/upload/gallery/CyB%20board%201%20600.jpg)
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Looks astounding, great work men.
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looks awesome.
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Oh, and it is working - I feel like I've been trampled underfoot in the Grand National. Nodder tells me that is normal and that I'll get used to the pain...
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It really does look very good. In some ways I hope to be able to sample it soon, but in other ways, I hope it's dry enough to be out on the rocks! Good job NW crew!
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Wow a whole lot more holds since i saw it, looking even sweeter! Just to find those monkeys now!
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My word. That is a fantastic looking creation.
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Nodder tells me that is normal and that I'll get used to the pain...
Pain is just weakness leaving the body.
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Nodder tells me that is normal and that I'll get used to the pain...
Pain is just weakness leaving the body.
Well I've got a skip load of weakness to expel - that'll explain why I feel so busted up!
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Bastards
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Nodder tells me that is normal and that I'll get used to the pain...
Pain is just weakness leaving the body.
Well I've got a skip load of weakness to expel - that'll explain why I feel so busted up!
I'm so used to mine that I regard my weakness as one of my strengths.
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MMMMmmmmmmm!
noticed earlier in the thread about the Bleaustone board.
Ive got the Moon fingerboard and have always thought the crimps were punishing. Is the Bleaustone Fingerboard a better all round fingerboard than the moon board?? :-\
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cor blimey that is one amazing looking board nw lads. everything you need there. apart from a good supply of chocolate spread
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Yes the mill is superbly constructed and we've got all rich simpsons old training holds :dance1:
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Apologies for bringing this back to life, best thread for my purpose you see.
Does anyone have anymore inspirational ideas for building a home wall from scratch.
Just been given some land by the in-laws thats completely ideal for whacking up a training barn so I'm starting the feasibility study now.
The north wales one looks awesome!